NationStates Jolt Archive

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.

I like that. There should be no negative consequences for anything. The sooner kids learn that the better. I mean that's how the real world works, right?

I like that. There should be no negative consequences for anything. The sooner kids learn that the better. I mean that's how the real world works, right?

I bow to your supreme wisdom.

I went to a school like that, and, sure, it took some time to get used to, but I learned my lesson pretty quickly and turned in my assignments mostly on time. It was nice that the deadlines were flexible, because sometimes there were other things that needed tending to more than homework or assignments.

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.

I still wouldn't do them. If I knew that I could hand them in on the last day of school, I would wait until the night before the last day of school and then realize that I can't get them done and give up.

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.

At Uni there was a Faculty that took a similar approach, lo-and behold essays came in weeks late and those that actually bothered to do the work got very crabby.

I went to a school like that, and, sure, it took some time to get used to, but I learned my lesson pretty quickly and turned in my assignments mostly on time. It was nice that the deadlines were flexible, because sometimes there were other things that needed tending to more than homework or assignments.
Teachers have to accept late assignments, and the school board has not yet set a cut off date, so right now, they have to accept them no matter HOW late they may be.

So what is the point of the deadlines at all?

Also, the school board has dictated that teachers are to use green ink when correcting assignments, because it is less negative than red.

All of these decisions have been top-down decisions with little to no teacher input.

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.

Ridiculous.
If a student turns in no work, a zero is an appropriate grade. If they turn in SOMETHING, then they certainly should get a grade higher than zero.

If you turn in a college paper late, you are often penalized an entire grade level.
If you turn in your income tax return late, the IRS is all cute and cuddly, right?

Insulating students from the consequences of their actions (or inactions) is hardly going to foster any sense of responsibility, satisfaction in doing one's best, or the idea that some things have to be done whether we like it or not. (Like, paying rent, changing diapers....)

As a teacher, I think I can say with some authority -- this sort of foolishness is mostly what you get when the people at the top haven't taught in years (if at all). Ah, the wonders of putting lawyers, businessmen, and educators who have never educated in charge of micromanaging every instant of a professional's day... and wondering why the more silliness they demand (as in: a uniform number of STAPLES to be put into a bulletin board! I kid you not! and classes in which the teacher sits back at lets the students teach each other!) the more abysmal graduation rates get.

As a teacher, I would be quite annoyed if a concept that was to be explored and researched was only understood by the few students who bothered to meet the deadline. How could I build on that concept if many students simply hadn't yet done their work on it? Yes, I could recap it all for them, but that takes away the necessary individual learning component. I don't think it does any of the students a favour.

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.
I personally love the idea of giving kids a free ride. School should not be a place where we teach our children the value of hard work and being responsible. I think that it is always the effort that counts. No matter when you choose to give that effort or how much effort you choose to give, rather that you gave some. Never mind that in 10 years when they are in the "real world" they will have to meet deadlines and likely be fired for not doing work. They can learn that later when their "real" life depends on it.

Great idea! Don't teach anyone that consequences have actions!

Seriously though, let it stand. When I have my kids and send them to decent schools, at least I know they won't have any competition from that school district.

Edit: I'm just going to leave that alone, because I think it is funny. Apparently, my brain went backwards for a second there.

Ridiculous.
If a student turns in no work, a zero is an appropriate grade. If they turn in SOMETHING, then they certainly should get a grade higher than zero.

What if they turn in a piece of paper with their name on it?

What if one child turns in something that has some merit, but very little (say, worth 10%), and another turns in something with no correct answers at all. Should both end up with basically the same grade?

Teachers have to accept late assignments, and the school board has not yet set a cut off date, so right now, they have to accept them no matter HOW late they may be.

As was the situation in my school as well.

So what is the point of the deadlines at all?

They were more guidelines than deadlines. It let you know when a new assignment would be issued and it was up to you to decide if you would do the first one before you got another one.

For me, it worked pretty well.

It also doesn't help that children can not fail a grade any more in this (and other districts) until they reach high school. It is quite common now to have many students working at different grade levels in one class. It can be very difficult to program for, and again, students get passed along until suddenly they hit a brick wall in Grade 10. What? You can't read? Fail. You got passed all the way up from Kindergarden like this? Damn Elementary teachers!

Drop out rates once kids reach Grade 10 are really, really high compared to other grade levels.

As was the situation in my school as well.



They were more guidelines than deadlines. It let you know when a new assignment would be issued and it was up to you to decide if you would do the first one before you got another one.

For me, it worked pretty well.
You seem like someone that was pretty self motivated. Not all students are. Again, I ask, if an assignment was given (such as read this book and write an essay on the motives of the protagonist), and the student didn't do it on time, how can we hold a valid discussion on that topic? Sure, the student may do it a couple months down the road (or not...I guess the teachers there would have to wait until the end of the year to give the student a failing mark on the assignment...or would they simply omit the mark, artificially inflating the grade? I'm not sure.) but that won't help the current discussion.

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.

I think thats a good idea for homework, but not for ALL assignments. I mean projects and essays, those are pillars of the course and it's really dumb to give everyone the option to have an infinite amount of extra time on those. It ends up severely disadvantaging those who try to turn work in on time. Homework is a different matter, however. I think the review kind of homework - the "we did this in class today, so go home and practice it on probs 1 - 15" - should be optional. If you don't do the extra review/studying, you get some more free time, but you will probably pay for it on tests and exams. I'm pretty sure thats how it works in college.

And where is this school board? It sounds dumb enough to be mine... but with that extra hint of coolness that I know my guys couldn't pull off without gagging.

What if they turn in a piece of paper with their name on it?

What if one child turns in something that has some merit, but very little (say, worth 10%), and another turns in something with no correct answers at all. Should both end up with basically the same grade?


Use your critical thinking skills, as I would enjoin my students. :)

A name on a piece of paper is worth a zero, unless the assignment was, for a kindergartener, "Print (or write) your name neatly on this sheet of paper."

If a student hands in a paper that shows he understands 20% of what he should have, I have no problem giving him between 20-25% for that assignment.

If a student hands in a paper that is completely incorrect, then the grade they get reflects that. More often, I will write comments asking questions about their answers, and ask them to resubmit it, if it is truly that abysmal.

Students in Ms. K's class know from day one, late homeworks are not accepted unless there is a darned good, documentable reason.

I don't mind the idea of giving teachers some flexibility in deciding whether or not to penalize on a case by case basis. That leaves room for family emergencies, illness, and various other important factors. However, I do not think that creating a complete lack of penalties for late and nonexistent work would be appropriate. Some students are apathetic enough as it is with consequences. I'd hate to see what type of work ethic would develop in those same students later in life if they never were required to accept responsibility for their actions (or lack there of).

I don't mind the idea of giving teachers some flexibility in deciding whether or not to penalize on a case by case basis. That leaves room for family emergencies, illness, and various other important factors. However, I do not think that creating a complete lack of penalties for late and nonexistent work would be appropriate. Some students are apathetic enough as it is with consequences. I'd hate to see what type of work ethic would develop in those same students later in life if they never were required to accept responsibility for their actions (or lack there of).
Actually, this policy takes that teacher flexibility away. It used to be there. Now the board has mandated that this is what will happen from now on. Part of that flexibility should include being able to have a 'teachable moment' in the sense of having a student take something seriously by making sure they know they can't get away with not doing it, or handing it in late for no reason.

I like that. There should be no negative consequences for anything. The sooner kids learn that the better. I mean that's how the real world works, right?

Let me tell you what, If I ever decide to tell my boss :

hey man, the important files you asked me to organize last week aren't classified yet... for what reason... ? duh... I didn't just feel like it, that's all, I guess it MIGHT be done 'till the end of this week... :rolleyes:

here's what he would do to me : :sniper:

and would simply add : man... you're fired !

so stop kidding me by telling me it's how it works in real life lol, you must be very young to think so... :eek:

and there's always, I say always consequences to any act you do in life, they need to exist, negatives or positives, without negative consequences, society like we know it would be totally anarchic :mad: ! or maybe that's the way you guys think it should be, but still then... you're very young...

Let me tell you what, If I ever decide to tell my boss :

hey man, the important files you asked me to organize last week aren't classified yet... for what reason... ? duh... I didn't just feel like it, that's all, I guess it MIGHT be done 'till the end of this week... :rolleyes:

here's what he would do to me : :sniper:

and would simply add : man... you're fired !

so stop kidding me by telling me it's how it works in real life lol, you must be very young to think so... :eek:

and there's always, I say always consequences to any act you do in life, they need to exist, negatives or positives, without negative consequences, society like we know it would be totally anarchic :mad: ! or maybe that's the way you guys think it should be, but still then... you're very young...

DCR was not serious when he wrote that.

You seem like someone that was pretty self motivated. Not all students are. Again, I ask, if an assignment was given (such as read this book and write an essay on the motives of the protagonist), and the student didn't do it on time, how can we hold a valid discussion on that topic?

Those who had done it had discussions, and those who hadn't did other stuff. Most of the things handed out as assignments were pretty autonomous and usually didn't need to lead to a discussion. The things that needed to be done in groups were done in groups, and the group would decide when to present/discuss them. I guess it would be different in other countries where curricula are so geared towards grades and not knowledge goals, but it's not like that here.

We didn't get grades until the 8th grade/year, and even then they were handed out when certain, centrally decided criteria were met by the students. You got the grade corresponding with the goals you could demonstrate you had accomplished. The grades were "fail" (underkänt), "pass" (godkänt), "strong pass" (väl godkänt) and "a very strong pass" (mycket väl godkänt).

I've since gone on to a university that practices Problem Based Learning (PBL) which it is even more autonomous and it is the student's responsibility to get the grade they want. Certain things are to be done at the end of semester, and exams are to be passed, but no one holds your hand or pushes you to do anything. If there is a deadline, it is usually either midterm or endterm, or part of a group effort.

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.

That is really stupid. That would just teach students that there are no consequences for not doing something on time. Like someone said earlier (I think), in the real world you have to make deadlines and there probably will be consequences if you don't.

Here is a lesson in sarcasm:
I like that. There should be no negative consequences for anything. The sooner kids learn that the better. I mean that's how the real world works, right?
I want a three page essay in my TG box by tomorrow about how sarcasm changes the meaning of statements.

By the way, your comments in regards to the youth of posters are offensive to the posters themselves, and to youths in general.

I guess it would be different in other countries where curricula are so geared towards grades and not knowledge goals, but it's not like that here. A big flaw in our education system in Canada(and not the only one, by far) is the need to teach to tests. It really hinders exploratory and discovery learning, and it takes a lot of the spontaneity out of learning. This policy is not going to help that when the system itself is so inherently rigid. It simply gives the illusion of flexibility.

If you turn in your income tax return late, the IRS is all cute and cuddly, right?

Well actually... I just submitted my 2003 income tax return and the only thing the IRS had done about it being late before that was send me a fairly dry letter reminding me that I hadn't turned in my income tax return last year.

They owed me a thousand bucks.

I considered including a little "thanks for the reminder" note with the return and apologizing for being so tardy in taking their money away which appeared to cause them some kind of distress... but then I thought, nahhh...

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

I like that. There should be no negative consequences for anything. The sooner kids learn that the better. I mean that's how the real world works, right?

:D

That's how my life is! woo!

Well actually... I just submitted my 2003 income tax return and the only thing the IRS had done about it being late before that was send me a fairly dry letter reminding me that I hadn't turned in my income tax return last year.

They owed me a thousand bucks.

I considered including a little "thanks for the reminder" note with the return and apologizing for being so tardy in taking their money away which appeared to cause them some kind of distress... but then I thought, nahhh...

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
Ah...but when you OWE them money, the letters are not so nice in regards to late returns...

Actually, this policy takes that teacher flexibility away. It used to be there. Now the board has mandated that this is what will happen from now on. Part of that flexibility should include being able to have a 'teachable moment' in the sense of having a student take something seriously by making sure they know they can't get away with not doing it, or handing it in late for no reason.

Besides, Sinuhue, you and I both know that when a student turns in all the homework the night before the marking period ends it is either crap they scribbled out at the last minute or plagiarized from someone who actually did the work.

Now, I'll tell you the opposite story from "give them every reasonable and unreasonable chance possible."

I had a student some years ago who was very very bright and hardworking. She was an absolute joy to have in the class because she not only did her own work beautifully, but was a natural conversationalist who got other students interested and involved in whatever she was working on.

There was a HORRIBLE family tragedy, and while she was going to school, working, and trying to take care of her mother and her siblings, this student literally put herself into the hospital out of emotional and physical exhaustion.

She was in the hospital for three weeks. The second day she was absent, one of her good friends came to me and asked for a copy of the book we were reading, because this student wanted to finish the book in the hospital. I gave it, of course, thinking it would take her mind off her problems.

The student came back, and handed me an envelope. In it were numerous medical ntoes and a sheaf of looseleaf. She had been getting the assignments from her friend all along and did all the work from the hospital without my ever asking for it.

The other students in the class were giving demonstration speeches and teaching how to do or make something -- I explained the assignment, gave her a slot on the last day (two days later) and said I would understand if it was not possible for her to complete.

She did a kick-ass demo.
She then passed the final with a 92.

I got called into my AP's office and was told that I could not possibly pass the child with the C I gave her because of her absences. I explained her circumstances, her medical excuse (on file with the attendance office), the fact she'd done all the work including the speech and passed the final with flying colors.

The AP said, "What are we teaching the other students if someone can pass when they have been out for three weeks?"

My reply, "I am teaching them that when something horrible happens to you, and you refuse to give in, keep doing your best, and you happen to excel despite adversity, you do NOT get punished for it!" I won that one, mostly because I refused to change the grade and made it clear that I'd fight tooth and nail if anyone else did.

What a change in attitude since then, eh?

A big flaw in our education system in Canada(and not the only one, by far) is the need to teach to tests. It really hinders exploratory and discovery learning, and it takes a lot of the spontaneity out of learning. This policy is not going to help that when the system itself is so inherently rigid. It simply gives the illusion of flexibility.


Can you type that again in 13-year-old level English? I think I know what you are saying, but I just want to be sure I'm right before I try to add to the conversation.

A name on a piece of paper is worth a zero, unless the assignment was, for a kindergartener, "Print (or write) your name neatly on this sheet of paper."

Ah, but you said if they turn in anything.

If a student hands in a paper that shows he understands 20% of what he should have, I have no problem giving him between 20-25% for that assignment.

Good.

If a student hands in a paper that is completely incorrect, then the grade they get reflects that. More often, I will write comments asking questions about their answers, and ask them to resubmit it, if it is truly that abysmal.

Why do they get a second chance, if those who understood 20%, 50%, 70%, or even 95% don't? Why is this one student more important than the others?

Students in Ms. K's class know from day one, late homeworks are not accepted unless there is a darned good, documentable reason.

Good.

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.This is a huge fallacy. The coddling of children in our school system, and society in general is producing generations of misquidedly over-confident, cocky little bastards that think the world should be handed to them on a silver platter.

Beurocrats are falling over themselves trying to make schools posistive and progressive environments, but they forget all about the learning. I'm quite sure that flexible and dynamic curriculums are effective when employed correctly, with adequate training and resources, but the public school system in Canada is not equipped to make that change now. I'll be damned if someone can convince me that the structured, methodical, and disciplined (within reason) methods of learning aren't as good as any.

I think these beurocrats want to get the credit for progressiveness by implemeting these ill-coveived notions (green ink instead of red? God forbid that a wrong answer will have negative connotations!) without doing any of the research into what works.

DCR was not serious when he wrote that.

Hmmm... looking at it, I guess you're right, he seems more ironic than serious, but some people seems to agree with that position though...

In my school (and it varies from teacher to teacher) if you have a late assignment what a lot of teachers do, depending on the reason it was late, is take off 25% of your grade. Some even take off a few points for each day the assignment is late. These punishment usually get harsher each quarter. For example:

Late Assignments:
1st Quarter: 25% off your grade
2nd Quarter: 50% off your grade
3rd Quarter: 75% off your grade
4th Quarter: You get a zero in the gradebook

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.

We might as well just hire a bunch of babysitters at minimum wage then if educational acheivement isn't the point any longer. :rolleyes: :confused: :(

Ah...but when you OWE them money, the letters are not so nice in regards to late returns...

Ahhh.. but they don't know if you owe them money or not until you submit the return (or do an audit). That's the whole point of the return.

Can you type that again in 13-year-old level English? I think I know what you are saying, but I just want to be sure I'm right before I try to add to the conversation.
Don't worry if you missed out on a bit of that...I was using teacher speak which assumes you have some pedagogical (teaching) background:) Sorry!

Alright. A big flaw in our education system in Canada is the fact that we often 'teach to the test', or prepare our students for standardised tests that may happen throughout the year, or at the end of the year. These tests are used to tell whether or not a student has 'learned the concepts', and is often also used to judge the school district's teaching methods. So, poor tests usually end up to mean less funding. It is in school board interests to make sure their students are super test writers above all else.

REAL learning involves students. They should be able to explore concepts and discover certain things on their own, not just be lectured to, and forced to memorise facts. The lecture and memorization style of teaching is the most effective way to score well on the standardised tests, however.

This new policy doesn't change that. It seems as though teachers now have more freedom to not assign 'grades' or 'penalties' but that isn't really so. It just makes it even more difficult for them to assign percentages and grades to work that can not be so easily quantified (graded with numbers instead of being qualified, which would simply say, the student did what was asked, or not).

My reply, "I am teaching them that when something horrible happens to you, and you refuse to give in, keep doing your best, and you happen to excel despite adversity, you do NOT get punished for it!" I won that one, mostly because I refused to change the grade and made it clear that I'd fight tooth and nail if anyone else did.


And this is how we teach equity instead of equality, which is an incredibly important concept. Of course we need to account for extenuating circumstances. We should not, however just give laziness a pass:(

Ahhh.. but they don't know if you owe them money or not until you submit the return (or do an audit). That's the whole point of the return.

Not true. They actually figure out what they think you owe based on your w-2's. Usually, your return informs them of further exemptions or that you made too many exemptions when paying taxes throughout the year. Regardless when you finally do turn in your taxes if you owe you are penalized for being late.

We might as well just hire a bunch of babysitters at minimum wage then if educational acheivement isn't the point any longer. :rolleyes: :confused: :(
I'd take that pay hike! No seriously...it WOULD be a pay hike to be paid as a babysitter instead of a teacher!

Ahhh.. but they don't know if you owe them money or not until you submit the return (or do an audit). That's the whole point of the return.
They might not know for a while, but it always catches up to you...

Don't worry if you missed out on a bit of that...I was using teacher speak which assumes you have some pedagogical (teaching) background:) Sorry!

Alright. A big flaw in our education system in Canada is the fact that we often 'teach to the test', or prepare our students for standardised tests that may happen throughout the year, or at the end of the year. These tests are used to tell whether or not a student has 'learned the concepts', and is often also used to judge the school district's teaching methods. So, poor tests usually end up to mean less funding. It is in school board interests to make sure their students are super test writers above all else.

REAL learning involves students. They should be able to explore concepts and discover certain things on their own, not just be lectured to, and forced to memorise facts. The lecture and memorization style of teaching is the most effective way to score well on the standardised tests, however.

This new policy doesn't change that. It seems as though teachers now have more freedom to not assign 'grades' or 'penalties' but that isn't really so. It just makes it even more difficult for them to assign percentages and grades to work that can not be so easily quantified (graded with numbers instead of being qualified, which would simply say, the student did what was asked, or not).

Our school district has always been REALLY focused on standardized tests and district assessments. We recently got a new curriculum, but surprisingly it's not focused on memorization (in math at least). Our math curriculum is focused on why certain methods and equations work, and we aren't just given the formula (I only know this because my dad is a math teacher and it's something he talks about all the time). Apparently, it's helping our test scores go up, just not as fast as the district would like.

I think I understand what you are saying about it being more difficult to assign percentages and grades. It's still a little confusing to me, but I think I understand what you're getting at.

Ah, but you said if they turn in anything.

Why do they get a second chance, if those who understood 20%, 50%, 70%, or even 95% don't? Why is this one student more important than the others?

Dem, I don't want to start an argument on this point, but remember that just because she says a statment that you can invert it and expect it to be true. Ex: I allow 0% correct assignments to be resubmitted - does not translate to - If an assignment is not 0% then it cannot be resubmitted.

It is a logical fallacy.

Why do they get a second chance, if those who understood 20%, 50%, 70%, or even 95% don't? Why is this one student more important than the others?

Heh. Call me only human. It really depends on a case by case basis.
Sometimes, the students for whom this is most an issue are second language learners who have been dumped willynilly into my room, incorrectly placed -- they may know the material, but be unable to express it in writing. They can sometimes explain well and with surprising insight if asked about it.

Now if it's a student who comes late all the time, never hands in homework, tries to listen to a walkman rather than to the lesson -- well, I think it's obvious that it's not important to them.

I have had students do multiple rewrites in which they completely ignored every correction/comment I had pointed out, and still get the same abysmal grade.

My students have my office hours and my email address, and have a paper due at the end of the month for which they will have had 10 weeks to research, draft, revise and hand it in. They have been invited to email questions and even drafts to me over the past 4 weeks. I've had only a couple of contacts. I've reminded students that the deadline approaches, that they have access to me on campus and off, and that the time to take advantage of my opinion is definitely not the week it's due.

I've made it clear that with a 10 week deadline, there will be NO EXCUSE for a late paper, and that each day it is late, there will be a 10 point reduction in whatever grade it would have gotten originally.

Would you care to wager on how many will be late?

Those who had done it had discussions, and those who hadn't did other stuff. Most of the things handed out as assignments were pretty autonomous and usually didn't need to lead to a discussion. The things that needed to be done in groups were done in groups, and the group would decide when to present/discuss them. I guess it would be different in other countries where curricula are so geared towards grades and not knowledge goals, but it's not like that here.

We didn't get grades until the 8th grade/year, and even then they were handed out when certain, centrally decided criteria were met by the students. You got the grade corresponding with the goals you could demonstrate you had accomplished. The grades were "fail" (underkänt), "pass" (godkänt), "strong pass" (väl godkänt) and "a very strong pass" (mycket väl godkänt).

I've since gone on to a university that practices Problem Based Learning (PBL) which it is even more autonomous and it is the student's responsibility to get the grade they want. Certain things are to be done at the end of semester, and exams are to be passed, but no one holds your hand or pushes you to do anything. If there is a deadline, it is usually either midterm or endterm, or part of a group effort.

First of all, it is a loss to all students to not encourage a student to be included in a discussion where possible while you would not want unprepared students participating. That said, you would want to have deadlines to encourage conscientious students to participate in discussions. I was a fair student but I never would have had assignments in on time if given the choice. Many of my teachers would have considered it a loss to not have me included in the discussions, not just to me, but to the other students.

Second, the school has an obligation to prepare students for the real world. When I turn in a proposal to the federal government they don't give me a pass because I was sick. If it was late, it goes in the trash and my company doesn't get a shot at a multimillion dollar contract. How long do you think I would remain employed if I was constantly late?

Heh. Call me only human. It really depends on a case by case basis.

Yes. Equity (treating students fairly, [and sometimes differently] based on their circumstances) versus equality (treating all students equally, regardless of their circumstances).

Yes. Equity (treating students fairly, [and sometimes differently] based on their circumstances) versus equality (treating all students equally, regardless of their circumstances).

Don't start, you!

Don't start, you!
You could tell I had feminism on my mind, couldn't you ;)

Would you care to wager on how many will be late?

From my experience? Quite a few. And every one will have some excuse for why they turned it in late.

True story: My senior year of undergrad I was taking a theology class. There was a class project, and I did wait until later than I should have (although not the week before) to start on it because of other projects taking up most of my time. The Monday before it was due (when most of my ordered articles finally arrived), I was so sick I couldn't get out of bed (it was due that Friday). I was sick for 2 1/2 days and convinced I wouldn't finish the assignment. I wrote to my prof, not to ask for an extension that I knew I wouldn't get (turning it in late would have been 10 pts. per day, and he wouldn't have checked for it until Monday), I simply informed him that it might be late. He encouraged me to do what I could and turn something in on time, as that would probably be advantageous. I stayed up all night getting it done, and got an A on the paper.

There were people who turned it in late. And I don't think there was any problem with his 10 pt. per day rule - it was stated at the beginning of the semester.

i like the idea personally, as a student in college i must say i have a ton of work and i turn in about 70% of my stuff on time. i am trying for two majors and its a load of work. this is our finals week for the semester and i just turned in a research paper which was due five weeks ago. im going to lose points but i had so much other stuff to do that i couldnt get it done on time, not to mention is was a thirty page paper...i like the idea of no points taken off for late wark. its an assignment, whats the big deal if a student turns it in on time and another student turns it in a couple weeks later? the work is still done and the work requirements completed...

Well actually... I just submitted my 2003 income tax return and the only thing the IRS had done about it being late before that was send me a fairly dry letter reminding me that I hadn't turned in my income tax return last year.

They owed me a thousand bucks.

I considered including a little "thanks for the reminder" note with the return and apologizing for being so tardy in taking their money away which appeared to cause them some kind of distress... but then I thought, nahhh...

And now back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Actually, I think this is a fair point.

As described, I think the policy is ludicrous. I would prefer to attend and I would wish my children to attend classrooms like that run by Kat.

But the "the real world doesn't work like that" argument is overdone. College sometimes works like that. Depends on the professor or the college.

Many aspects of real life work like that. Deadlines can be moved. There may be no consequence except harm to yourself of not meeting a deadline. Etc.

Both the rigid -- by this date or this many points off -- model nor the loose -- any time you feel like it -- model have some corollaries in the real world.

Sometimes loose standards require more personal responsibility and teach self-reliance. If you don't do work on time, you likely won't do it at all or will have to do it at the same time as other projects.

Again, the policy as presented is silly. But it is not as silly as some have said.

I had the opposite from a teacher once. I was ejected from my house when I was fifteen in the middle of a term (long story). My father denied me access to the house where some of my books and homework was. I made the school aware of the problem and my teachers. Many loaned me temporary schoolbooks and allowed me to redo my homework and turn it in late. Except my Spanish teacher. I was on my second year with her and she was always nice to me, but she accepted no excuses. She required that it be typed (I was friggin' homeless) and took off one grade per day late. I eventually convinced another teacher to allow me to come to their home and finish the assignment. I got a perfect score which ended up being an 80%. Either extreme is just silly. I want Kat as a teacher.

I had the opposite from a teacher once. I was ejected from my house when I was fifteen in the middle of a term (long story). My father denied me access to the house where some of my books and homework was. I made the school aware of the problem and my teachers. Many loaned me temporary schoolbooks and allowed me to redo my homework and turn it in late. Except my Spanish teacher. I was on my second year with her and she was always nice to me, but she accepted no excuses. She required that it be typed (I was friggin' homeless) and took off one grade per day late. I eventually convinced another teacher to allow me to come to their home and finish the assignment. I got a perfect score which ended up being an 80%. Either extreme is just silly. I want Kat as a teacher.
Hmph. And Sinuhue's class is chopped liver? Sheesh. I'm not advertising well enough!

Actually, I think this is a fair point.

As described, I think the policy is ludicrous. I would prefer to attend and I would wish my children to attend classrooms like that run by Kat.

But the "the real world doesn't work like that" argument is overdone. College sometimes works like that. Depends on the professor or the college.

Many aspects of real life work like that. Deadlines can be moved. There may be no consequence except harm to yourself of not meeting a deadline. Etc.

Both the rigid -- by this date or this many points off -- model nor the loose -- any time you feel like it -- model have some corollaries in the real world.

Sometimes loose standards require more personal responsibility and teach self-reliance. If you don't do work on time, you likely won't do it at all or will have to do it at the same time as other projects.

Again, the policy as presented is silly. But it is not as silly as some have said.

I think the point is that teachers should be allowed to make the decision of how to mix and match the opposing policies. I had many teachers that assigned papers that were accepted at any point in the semester though many were regarding coursework that was completed early in the term. Sin mentioned that the teachers should be allowed the flexibility to adjust the policy to adhere with their style of teaching and the coursework (it's hard to discuss a book no one has read) and that certainly would be comparable to the real world.

From my experience? Quite a few. And every one will have some excuse for why they turned it in late.

True story: My senior year of undergrad I was taking a theology class. There was a class project, and I did wait until later than I should have (although not the week before) to start on it because of other projects taking up most of my time. The Monday before it was due (when most of my ordered articles finally arrived), I was so sick I couldn't get out of bed (it was due that Friday). I was sick for 2 1/2 days and convinced I wouldn't finish the assignment. I wrote to my prof, not to ask for an extension that I knew I wouldn't get (turning it in late would have been 10 pts. per day, and he wouldn't have checked for it until Monday), I simply informed him that it might be late. He encouraged me to do what I could and turn something in on time, as that would probably be advantageous. I stayed up all night getting it done, and got an A on the paper.

There were people who turned it in late. And I don't think there was any problem with his 10 pt. per day rule - it was stated at the beginning of the semester.

Well, here's the thing: you took responsibilty for the situation. You did not excuse it, you said, "I could be late." As it happened, you DID do it on time.

I could say fairly confidently that his opinion of you was increased because of your honesty even though you did not expect to get an extension. I'm not saying it affected your grade -- but being honest about it leaves a teacher considering you more kindly than not showing up or not turning it in and saying nothing.

It also is, to be horribly cliched, an indication of your character. ;)

Hmph. And Sinuhue's class is chopped liver? Sheesh. I'm not advertising well enough!

Um, what I want you to teach me isn't appropriate for the classroom. :fluffle:

Um, what I want you to teach me isn't appropriate for the classroom. :fluffle:
Hmm...well, I guess if that's the case it wouldn't be appropriate for you to be my student then.

Nicest thing about being a music teacher: No assignments to hand out.

Oh, sure, a few things here and there, but mostly we do the work in class. No reason for me to pile on more crap to take away from a child's valuable TV time.

I think the point is that teachers should be allowed to make the decision of how to mix and match the opposing policies. I had many teachers that assigned papers that were accepted at any point in the semester though many were regarding coursework that was completed early in the term. Sin mentioned that the teachers should be allowed the flexibility to adjust the policy to adhere with their style of teaching and the coursework (it's hard to discuss a book no one has read) and that certainly would be comparable to the real world.

Agreed. I don't think I said otherwise.

Although in my experience, whether students turned in homework on time usually had little to do with whether they had read the material. From grade school through law school. (And in the "real world").

Hmm...well, I guess if that's the case it wouldn't be appropriate for you to be my student then.

Exactly. Though your reply could have been more concise but just saying "you're right". I can't hear that enough.

TG

Actually, I think this is a fair point.

As described, I think the policy is ludicrous. I would prefer to attend and I would wish my children to attend classrooms like that run by Kat.

But the "the real world doesn't work like that" argument is overdone. College sometimes works like that. Depends on the professor or the college.

Many aspects of real life work like that. Deadlines can be moved. There may be no consequence except harm to yourself of not meeting a deadline. Etc.

Both the rigid -- by this date or this many points off -- model nor the loose -- any time you feel like it -- model have some corollaries in the real world.

Sometimes loose standards require more personal responsibility and teach self-reliance. If you don't do work on time, you likely won't do it at all or will have to do it at the same time as other projects.

Again, the policy as presented is silly. But it is not as silly as some have said.
I feel like this is part of the problem with the society we live in. People say they will do things, say they will show up at a certain time, say they will deliver the product on a given date, and then can't show up/deliver as promised. That means that whatever was dependant on the previous attendance/product must be delayed and thus down the line. This is why construction always takes longer than estimated. This is why jobs always cost more than they should.

Would it be so terrible to hold people accountable for the things they say they will do?

i like the idea personally, as a student in college i must say i have a ton of work and i turn in about 70% of my stuff on time. i am trying for two majors and its a load of work. this is our finals week for the semester and i just turned in a research paper which was due five weeks ago. im going to lose points but i had so much other stuff to do that i couldnt get it done on time, not to mention is was a thirty page paper...i like the idea of no points taken off for late wark. its an assignment, whats the big deal if a student turns it in on time and another student turns it in a couple weeks later? the work is still done and the work requirements completed...

Ah, but here's the thing. A student turning in the work late messes with MY schedule and keeps me doing things I need to and have planned time to do.

It is an inconsiderate inconvenience to an educator who has hundreds of projects to grade when students do this habitually. Obviously, there are always circumstances to consider, but....

Agreed. I don't think I said otherwise.

Although in my experience, whether students turned in homework on time usually had little to do with whether they had read the material. From grade school through law school. (And in the "real world").

I could have said that clearer. The reason everyone thinks it's silly is because of the inflexibility of the rule, not because allowing students flexible turnin dates is silly. If you were saying that, then I just restated your position and sorry for the extra post.

You could tell I had feminism on my mind, couldn't you ;)

LOL, and I have humanism on mine. ;)

In real life you have to be punctual and there are no excuses. School is training for real life.

Ah, but here's the thing. A student turning in the work late messes with MY schedule and keeps me doing things I need to and have planned time to do.

It is an inconsiderate inconvenience to an educator who has hundreds of projects to grade when students do this habitually. Obviously, there are always circumstances to consider, but....

Exactly the point I was going to make. I taught in the military and worked as a tutor for almost a decade. Part of the reasons for deadlines is because without them you end up with too much of the assignments left to grade at the end of the term. While the students aren't held to deadlines, I promise the teachers will be. "I know I was supposed to have your grade ready to place on your report card but I was playing Doom so I didn't get it ready in time." "Children, I don't have a lesson plan for today because 'The Apprentice' was just too damn good last night. Did you hear, someone got fired?"

LOL, and I have humanism on mine. ;)
Now don't YOU start!

Sinuhue, I had forgotten: what subject do you teach? Mine's English.

I like that. There should be no negative consequences for anything. The sooner kids learn that the better. I mean that's how the real world works, right?yep absolutely correct, In the real world. a missed deadline can be rewared with enforced vacation (fired) or a reduction in pay.

I like that. There should be no negative consequences for anything. The sooner kids learn that the better. I mean that's how the real world works, right?yep absolutely correct, In the real world. a missed deadline can be rewared with enforced vacation (fired) or a reduction in pay.

Sinuhue, I had forgotten: what subject do you teach? Mine's English.

She means what do you teach your students, not what do you teach me. I think.

Suto ri: You're Willy Wonka? ;)

She means what do you teach your students, not what do you teach me. I think.

LOL, yes, what curricula are you currently teaching for your school. ;)

Sinuhue, I had forgotten: what subject do you teach? Mine's English.
Right now I'm teaching Spanish. I'm also a great elementary and junior high generalist, music teacher, and I specialised in English Language Arts and Social Sciences at the high school level. Working in the North really moved me around so I've taught a lot of different age groups and subject areas.

Right now I'm teaching Spanish. I'm also a great elementary and junior high generalist, music teacher, and I specialised in English Language Arts and Social Sciences at the high school level. Working in the North really moved me around so I've taught a lot of different age groups and subject areas.

How'd you like your SLA courses? Or did you have to take them?

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.
Pure crap.

If you don't turn the assignment in on time, and don't have an accepted excuse (i.e. medical reason, proven family emergency, etc.) you should get a zero. I don't even support giving partial credit for late work; if you can't follow instructions and complete your work by the deadline then you deserve to fail. I don't especially care if this is "hurting" students who don't complete work, because they SHOULD be "hurt." Students won't be "hurt" at all if they complete their work on time, so if they get "hurt" by this rule then it's their own damn fault. It's like if you tell a kid that they will lose a finger if they stick it in that fan blade, and then you turn on the fan blade...if they choose to jam their finger in the fan, it's not your fault, and you aren't "hurting" them by telling them that sticking their finger in the fan will result in injury.

A school board that will remain unnamed has recently adopted a policy of no zeros and no marks taken off for late assignments. Discuss.
I believe this is quite stupid. Deadlines are a fact of life in the corprate world. You miss one, you get fired. Kids need to learn that.

I mis-clicked on my vote btw. Should have been a no.

If they can wait to the end of the school year to turn in assignments how is the teacher to be able to focus on learning the kid in what was wrong with their assignment? Summer School .. where they dont have to turn in to the end of that? Will it be handed over to the teacher of that student the next school year to catch up on what wasn't learnt last year? Where does that end? Doesn't sound like a good plan to me. Not with the average student anyway. There can always be exceptions to a rule. But this sounds like it will do more harm than good for the majority of students and teachers involved.

I am sorry, but that policy is crap. I teach High School Social Studies and I take off points if assignments are late and if students fail to do the work, they get a zero. (This is not a rigid policy, exceptions are made in cases of illness of family emergency. I do refer to it as my "no excuses" homework policy...I don't care if you had a game last night, work has to be done. Furthermore, I post all assignments on the web as well as annoucing them in class way ahead of the due date. Students need to learn to manage their time. ) What are we teaching our kids if we don't penalize them for failing to do their work?? How is that preparing them for the real world? "Oh, sorry I forget to put life boats on that ship, but hey, I got paid anyway!"

Right now I'm teaching Spanish. I'm also a great elementary and junior high generalist, music teacher, and I specialised in English Language Arts and Social Sciences at the high school level. Working in the North really moved me around so I've taught a lot of different age groups and subject areas.


Junior high?!
My dear lady, I admire you. From painful experience, I have found students between the ages of eleven and fourteen to be... shall we say... challenging. Your experiences show you to be a true renaissance woman! *takes hat off to Sinuhue*

Honest to god, I don't know how you do it...

I still wouldn't do them. If I knew that I could hand them in on the last day of school, I would wait until the night before the last day of school and then realize that I can't get them done and give up.

*high fives* whoot!

I personally love the idea of giving kids a free ride. School should not be a place where we teach our children the value of hard work and being responsible. I think that it is always the effort that counts. No matter when you choose to give that effort or how much effort you choose to give, rather that you gave some. Never mind that in 10 years when they are in the "real world" they will have to meet deadlines and likely be fired for not doing work. They can learn that later when their "real" life depends on it.

Isn't the point of homework assignments and projects to enrich the child's learning experience and gain a sense of how much they have learned and understood the material. I am sorry, but your students are in for a rude awakening and many of them will sink rather than swim...you can prevent this and encourage a good work ethic early on rather than have them learn it "later." By the way, I am also a teacher.

Also, the school board has dictated that teachers are to use green ink when correcting assignments, because it is less negative than red.

All of these decisions have been top-down decisions with little to no teacher input.
It really sounds like your school is suffering from an awful case of political correctness.

In many subjects the material needing to be taught is dependent upon students mastering certain skills before progressing to learn new ones. Without students completing assignments, the teachers have a more difficult time distinguishing which students are ready to move on and which need review.

My teaching fields are math and music primarily, but also self-contained classroom -that's all core subjects for non education people. If a fifth grader had not mastered how to compare fractions, then he/she's definitely not ready for me to teach them finding common denominators. If students in an algebra class didn't feel like doing any work on evaluating a function for a single variable, they are going to be seriously at a loss when the curriculum moves into functions with multiple variables.

Let me tell you what, If I ever decide to tell my boss :

hey man, the important files you asked me to organize last week aren't classified yet... for what reason... ? duh... I didn't just feel like it, that's all, I guess it MIGHT be done 'till the end of this week... :rolleyes:

here's what he would do to me : :sniper:

and would simply add : man... you're fired !

so stop kidding me by telling me it's how it works in real life lol, you must be very young to think so... :eek:

and there's always, I say always consequences to any act you do in life, they need to exist, negatives or positives, without negative consequences, society like we know it would be totally anarchic :mad: ! or maybe that's the way you guys think it should be, but still then... you're very young...
You know what else exists in real life? Sarcasm.