NationStates Jolt Archive

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.

That is about what I had gotten out of it. Well, good for those who do. :)

I think you must have had the wrong expectations when you walked into that building. The whole point of going to church is to learn about God and how to live for Him, and to meet up with a whole lot of people with the same goals.

If you were to listen to what was said and actually believed how important it was, maybe you would have found it more interesting.

Which kind of church was it?
I mean do you know if it was Catholic, Baptist, Presbetarian, etc?
They all believe in the same God, but they do have differring ideas.

I attend a baptist church in New Zealand. I have never been able to sit still through my whole life and do get pretty bored, but I sit through anyway because I know that I may just learn something important.

It was Baptist

its an aquired taste

try a quaker meeting next time, they dont talk so much

Well, the quality of the sermon depends on the quality of the priest/minister/whatever preaching. You most likely got a not-so-good one.
I had a quite good preacher where I used to live, hell, he made the Old Testimate sound like the script to an action movie...well, its about the same as a modern action movie if you think about it :P
Anyway, I also find that bigger churches tend to be like that, try going to a smaller one.

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.

Aren't you a proud atheist. If they are willing to open their doors to you, you might as well be respectful.

I used to go to a rural church with about 30-40 members. It was actually pretty fun.

I guess you went to those "industrial complex of god" churches. I have a couple of those near where I live. I can't imagine going a service at those places.

But truthfully, it all depends on where you go. I've been to a church where the preacher's sermon was les than five minuetes and that was on Easter Sunday.

I just stay home and watch church services on T.V. That way if I get tired of it I can just change the channel. ;)

I'm not trying to convert you to my spiritual philosophy. I just thought I should say that first.

But anyway, there are many different flavours of Christianity. Some are stronger than others. There are the massive Baptist megachurches, there are the old stately Roman-Catholic cathedrals, and places like my church, which is a rather small, progressive-minded Episcopal church. I mean, my spiritual mentor is an Episcopal priest who also happens to be an open homosexual, and the rector of my parish once made a negative reference to "American scorched-earth policy" in a sermon. Women also serve alongside men as priests, and they're allowed to marry and have families.

We're a little bit more of a left-leaning bunch than you'd assume an active church congregation to be. ;) After all, we're a part of the Episcopal Church of the U.S., and one of our dioceses appointed the first openly gay bishop. Not all agree with the decision, but the national church is standing by the decision. I also live in San Francisco and go to school in Santa Cruz, two very progressive towns, so it also depends on where you live.

Also, most of the other Episcopalians I hang out with are more interested in the personal spiritual journey than any sort of showmanship or flashiness. Our services basically mirror the Roman-Catholic services and they're fairly modest. Also, you don't have to specifically be a baptised Anglican, Episcopalian (or anything else) to accept the eucharist.

I'm not trying to sell you on my denomination (or any other kind), but I just thought you ought to know that there are *many* different kinds of churches out there and I can speak more from my own experiences.

We have a few mega churches in my area as well as some of the premier theological hucksters, (Benny Hin used to be headquarter here). What motivates people to seek spiritual solace from these media money machines is beyond me.

Perhaps they equate glitz and the outward trappings of success with God and holiness.

I guess you went to those "industrial complex of god" churches. I have a couple of those near where I live. I can't imagine going a service at those places.

But truthfully, it all depends on where you go. I've been to a church where the preacher's sermon was les than five minuetes and that was on Easter Sunday.

What could you possibly learn from a five-minute sermon? That's just enough time to (barely) skim over who Jesus is and why he died. I thought that was common knowledge anyway.

next time go with someone, someone who goes to that church. that way he can explain to you all the stuff that doesnt make sense.

*shrug* If you're not willing to accept Jesus, you're not going to get anything out the message. Not trying to deride you, but listening to a band you know you're not going to like isn't going to make you go out and buy concert tickets.

Baptist churches are amazingly boring. They never go in depth, they don't test your faith with questions, and they don't examine deep into your life. My church makes me think deep about who I am, what I'm doing, and what I think about every aspect of life.

Honestly, if you don't want to go, then don't. Don't make fun of others just because you think the church is dumb. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but you can do it outside the church.

What could you possibly learn from a five-minute sermon? That's just enough time to (barely) skim over who Jesus is and why he died. I thought that was common knowledge anyway.

Actually, that was the point of the sermon. I kinda feel guilty though, I kinda zoned out for two minuetes and it caught me off guard when he ended the sermon so quickly.

*shrug* If you're not willing to accept Jesus, you're not going to get anything out the message. Not trying to deride you, but listening to a band you know you're not going to like isn't going to make you go out and buy concert tickets.

Baptist churches are amazingly boring. They never go in depth, they don't test your faith with questions, and they don't examine deep into your life. My church makes me think deep about who I am, what I'm doing, and what I think about every aspect of life.

Honestly, if you don't want to go, then don't. Don't make fun of others just because you think the church is dumb. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but you can do it outside the church.

To be fair he did not say anything inside of church and this IS outside of church

But yeah dont think he is in good taste either

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.

walking into a Church not knowing whats going on is kinda like walking into a liberary not knowing how to read. next time try to get some one to explain the Church/mass/service to you before hand and answer some questions, maybe the building needs to be that big for a reason? maybe the electronic equipment was donated?

[QUOTE=Australus]I mean, my spiritual mentor is an Episcopal priest who also happens to be an open homosexual, and the rector of my parish once made a negative reference to "American scorched-earth policy" in a sermon.[QUOTE]

Ask your spiritual mentor what he thinks of Leviticus 20:13.

Baptist churches are amazingly boring. They never go in depth, they don't test your faith with questions, and they don't examine deep into your life.

Mine does. Does that mean it's not a real Baptist church?

*shrug* If you're not willing to accept Jesus, you're not going to get anything out the message. Not trying to deride you, but listening to a band you know you're not going to like isn't going to make you go out and buy concert tickets.

Baptist churches are amazingly boring. They never go in depth, they don't test your faith with questions, and they don't examine deep into your life. My church makes me think deep about who I am, what I'm doing, and what I think about every aspect of life.

Honestly, if you don't want to go, then don't. Don't make fun of others just because you think the church is dumb. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but you can do it outside the church.

Baptist churches are no more boring than any other religion. There are some boring pastors and some very good pastors in every denomination. The one I used to attend, until we moved, kept me riveted for generally 40 minutes every Sunday (it was supposed to be 30 minutes, he always ran over, nobody minded).

As a person with a music degree in voice, I have worked as a staff singer in many different denominations. Whether it is boring or not depends on the pastor, not necessarily the denomination.

[QUOTE=Australus]I mean, my spiritual mentor is an Episcopal priest who also happens to be an open homosexual, and the rector of my parish once made a negative reference to "American scorched-earth policy" in a sermon.[QUOTE]

Ask your spiritual mentor what he thinks of Leviticus 20:13.

Hah. I knew that was going to hit a nerve. Mostly, the argument that she as well as a number of her colleagues put forth is that the pharasaical codes of the Old Testament were nullified by Christ's New Covenant.

Also, many of the other laws put forth in Leviticus are not followed by even the most fundamentalistic of Christians, i.e. isolating a woman on her period in a tent in the middle of nowhere, avoiding non-kosher foods, and so on.

St. Paul in Romans condemns homosexual behaviour because it is "unnatural" but contemporary science leads one to see certain persons as being born naturally homosexual. Consequently, it's not "unnatural" for them. Homosexuals are following nature as much as heterosexuals are following nature in their relationships with persons of the opposite sex.

Furthermore, St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century stated that "Grace does not destroy nature, but perfects it." If we take what we know about homosexuality being as equally natural as heterosexuality, then obviously, to say that homosexuality is a perversion of nature is to say that God's grace created a perversion. Now, no self-respecting practising Christian who truly believes would go so far as to say that God screwed up, now would he/she?

That's basically the summary of the conversations we've had on the issue.

I used to (very occasionally) go to my greek-orthodox church.
Pity I don't speak greek. Or ancient greek. Or whatever they speak.

I should probably find out more about the religion I claim to follow, but honestly? I have nothing in common with anyone I've ever met there, and for me, God, whether he exists or not, has always been a very personal, private thing.

I don't need a priest to tell me how to worship.

I'm all in favor of those that do getting the most out of their church, of course. And being respectful when in other peoples churches.

Having said that, I also see nothing wrong with, after visiting their church and being respectful, coming on a forum board, and saying "wow that was boring". That's a perfectly valid opinion, which I have shared many times.

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.

Well, Christian theology revolves around, well, JESUS CHRIST, it might make since that name would be tossed around quite a bit.

Perhaps the church is big because the congregation is big?

As far as money goes, how do you think they support their ministries, pastors, etc? They need money to support those ministries just like any other nonprofit. The "expensive electronic equipment", if that is what was specifically asked for, could be used to make it easier for the congregation to join in with the praise and worship, better multimedia to more effectively evangelize to visitors to the church, etc.

I used to (very occasionally) go to my greek-orthodox church.
Pity I don't speak greek. Or ancient greek. Or whatever they speak.

I should probably find out more about the religion I claim to follow, but honestly? I have nothing in common with anyone I've ever met there, and for me, God, whether he exists or not, has always been a very personal, private thing.

I don't need a priest to tell me how to worship.

I'm all in favor of those that do getting the most out of their church, of course. And being respectful when in other peoples churches.

Having said that, I also see nothing wrong with, after visiting their church and being respectful, coming on a forum board, and saying "wow that was boring". That's a perfectly valid opinion, which I have shared many times.

I completely respect that.

Hah. I knew that was going to hit a nerve. Mostly, the argument that she as well as a number of her colleagues put forth is that the pharasaical codes of the Old Testament were nullified by Christ's New Covenant.

Also, many of the other laws put forth in Leviticus are not followed by even the most fundamentalistic of Christians, i.e. isolating a woman on her period in a tent in the middle of nowhere, avoiding non-kosher foods, and so on.

St. Paul in Romans condemns homosexual behaviour because it is "unnatural" but contemporary science leads one to see certain persons as being born naturally homosexual. Consequently, it's not "unnatural" for them. Homosexuals are following nature as much as heterosexuals are following nature in their relationships with persons of the opposite sex.

Furthermore, St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century stated that "Grace does not destroy nature, but perfects it." If we take what we know about homosexuality being as equally natural as heterosexuality, then obviously, to say that homosexuality is a perversion of nature is to say that God's grace created a perversion. Now, no self-respecting practising Christian who truly believes would go so far as to say that God screwed up, now would he/she?

That's basically the summary of the conversations we've had on the issue.
Jesus' death atoned for sin, but that doesn't stop it from being sin.

Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
I don't know about you, but "abomination" sounds like a pretty strong word to me.

I wouldn't rely too much on what "contemporary science" has to say about people being born gay. "Scientists" claim that nothing exploded and everything was created from that.

My message to the evangelicals who have posted here:

I find it really amusing (in a sad sort of way) that you're arguing what superficial features makes one church better than another. It's not about how big or small a church is, how charismatic or "boring" a pastor is, traditional service structure versus more modern structures. It's all about Jesus. That is the one unifying factor of all evangelical churches. It's dangerous to think that we can win people to Christ by the size of our church, the men behind the pulpit and the style in which we run our services. While these can be important, they are secondary.

How does a man enter the kingdom of God? By the Holy Spirit. A man cannot come to Christ less he is drawn by the Spirit. Therefore, why are we so quick to blame the church for this man's "bad experience?" It may be that he simply refused to listen to the Spirit's stirring. It may be that he was not willing to make the decision to forsake sin and pursue righteousness. I don't know.

Remember, God can save you wherever you are...church, home, work, school.... Let's join together in prayer for this individual who has at least opened his heart to see what it is that drives us to be who we are. We are the body of Christ.

-Doug

Jesus' death atoned for sin, but that doesn't stop it from being sin.

Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
I don't know about you, but "abomination" sounds like a pretty strong word to me.

I wouldn't rely too much on what "contemporary science" has to say about people being born gay. "Scientists" claim that nothing exploded and everything was created from that.

So then we're all going to hell for eating pork and not isolating women in the throes of their periods. You can't pick and choose.

Churches varies from church to church. Imo, if your still interested, I recommend looking further. Like for me, I can fall asleep totally in one church, and the next keep me wide awake because it's something new. So keep searching if your still interested you might find something new.

Anyway, I'll like to recommend mine, but It's in Singapore. :p Hardly likely you'll come here. :D

But as for my church, it's a 15k people church. And they don't force you to donate, rather it's out of your own willingness to donate. Usually most of the money goes to missionaries like for missionary churches in Africa and South East Asia, and also they run the largest dialisys centre in Singapore. Rather than a sound system. But a church is a non-profit organization, they need money to run. But it's really what their priorities are.

The reason it's so big is because of good preaching and strong public service ministry. My pastor usually preach very strongly about forgiveness, grace, prosperity and blessings. Very concentrated about Jesus, and Pauls letters. Because Pauls letters we're written for the gentiles and the Christians rather than the old covenant written for the Jews.

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.

Church is meant to be serious, part of penance is to sit through it with out complaint.
Does everything have to instantly excite you, you are like most teenagers now, very shallow, easily bored and boorish in the process.

Jesus' death atoned for sin, but that doesn't stop it from being sin.

Leviticus 20:13 states "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."
I don't know about you, but "abomination" sounds like a pretty strong word to me.

I wouldn't rely too much on what "contemporary science" has to say about people being born gay. "Scientists" claim that nothing exploded and everything was created from that.

He/she is an episcopalian, the scripture is carried by apostolic succession, not in the bible. :rolleyes:

You do know that it was the Bishop's that put the old testament in, right? And now, many episcopalian bishop's have disavowed large parts of the old testament in their see - New Jersey for example. Okey-dokey?

And they don't force you to donate, rather it's out of your own willingness to donate.

just to dispell this missconception - I don't think any Church forces you to donate

My message to the evangelicals who have posted here:

I find it really amusing (in a sad sort of way) that you're arguing what superficial features makes one church better than another. It's not about how big or small a church is, how charismatic or "boring" a pastor is, traditional service structure versus more modern structures. It's all about Jesus. That is the one unifying factor of all evangelical churches. It's dangerous to think that we can win people to Christ by the size of our church, the men behind the pulpit and the style in which we run our services. While these can be important, they are secondary.

True to some extent. But I believe having a annoited person behind the pulpit, can change your life greatly. No doubt, as long as you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, that you are saved through the blood.

But it's from then after, that having a good mentor/pastor that really counts. It would make your quality of life alot better or worse, while your still in this earth.

If you have one that keeps on preaching very harshly against sin with anger and 'hellfire', you tend to be very sinical and 'holier than thou'. And you'll see every homosexual, prostitute as very bad sinners that you should avoid or condemn. Very Pharisee like. (This is very common with whats going on in churches in the USA, ie: Fred Phelps etc.)

If your pastor preaches very strongly on the word of grace and forgiveness, especially Jesus, how he condemns the pharisee's (The supposedly do-gooders but have then pride themselves in their self-righteousness), but the sinners he gladly lets helps them in to hear him speak. For Jesus come not for the righteous but for the sinners, like a doctor not for the strong but the sick. Then you'll see prostitutes, homosexuals, and other people condemn by the common christian community come into your church, seeking a way out and looking for a better life.

He/she is an episcopalian, the scripture is carried by apostolic succession, not in the bible. :rolleyes:

You do know that it was the Bishop's that put the old testament in, right? And now, many episcopalian bishop's have disavowed large parts of the old testament in their see - New Jersey for example. Okey-dokey?

Thanks. You said it a million times better than I possibly could have. :)

He/she is an episcopalian, the scripture is carried by apostolic succession, not in the bible. :rolleyes:

You do know that it was the Bishop's that put the old testament in, right? And now, many episcopalian bishop's have disavowed large parts of the old testament in their see - New Jersey for example. Okey-dokey?
Oh shitty! My bad.

I'll shut up now before the flame-fest begins.

I don't go to church, I would possibly start laughing there.

just to dispell this missconception - I don't think any Church forces you to donate

Actually there are. You'll be surprised. :p.. There was this church I went to, pretty scary, when it was giving time, they asked the people to close the doors. Then the preacher would ask the holy ark or something like that, to point out to those who haven't give last week. I was like 'oh shit', when it was my first time in the church. :D Luckily their holy ark didn't spotted me. :p

EDIT: Just to say, I'm never going back to that church again. :eek:

Oh shitty! My bad.

I'll shut up now before the flame-fest begins.

No worries. I appreciate a good debate from time to time, so long as it's civilised. :)

Church is meant to be serious, part of penance is to sit through it with out complaint.
Does everything have to instantly excite you, you are like most teenagers now, very shallow, easily bored and boorish in the process.

Actually there are some noisy & loud with great music and exciting churches around. Which has a very strong emphasis on teens.

They are pretty good you know. It could be a way of just trying to draw teens in, but even the Pastor themselves is loud and noisy. Which is I think perfectly alright. You don't want Christians to be all generic, dress the same, act the same, and also being boorish all the same.

There's one church in Singapore, the largest one in Singapore, their female Pastor is a pop star. Their church is mainly a chinese music christian industry, which reaches out to China very strongly. I think they have about 20k people in their church, but even more in China. About few million people listen to her songs in China. City Harvest Church.

In Australia there's another one. Hillsongs.

Church isn't meant to be boring.

But I guess it could be a catholic thing to be quiet and holy.

Also, many of the other laws put forth in Leviticus are not followed by even the most fundamentalistic of Christians, i.e. isolating a woman on her period in a tent in the middle of nowhere, avoiding non-kosher foods, and so on.

Oh so since other laws are broken, it makes it ok to break even more of them?


Furthermore, St. Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century stated that "Grace does not destroy nature, but perfects it." If we take what we know about homosexuality being as equally natural as heterosexuality, then obviously, to say that homosexuality is a perversion of nature is to say that God's grace created a perversion. Now, no self-respecting practising Christian who truly believes would go so far as to say that God screwed up, now would he/she?

If it aint in the bible...

Church is meant to be serious, part of penance is to sit through it with out complaint.
Does everything have to instantly excite you, you are like most teenagers now, very shallow, easily bored and boorish in the process.

Church shouldn't have to be boring. If you can't find a place that keeps you interested, then find another. You should be able to enjoy yourself while learning. Many people say church is only there as a worship service to God, but that's not entirely true. We are there to learn and to build our knowledge, as well as fellowship. It should be enjoyable, not a weekly chore. God wants you to give cheerfully, not grudgingly.

Actually there are. You'll be surprised. :p.. There was this church I went to, pretty scary, when it was giving time, they asked the people to close the doors. Then the preacher would ask the holy ark or something like that, to point out to those who haven't give last week. I was like 'oh shit', when it was my first time in the church. :D Luckily their holy ark didn't spotted me. :p

EDIT: Just to say, I'm never going back to that church again. :eek:

Holy crap...that's not a church, it's a cult. I know a lot of places like that. Offerings of money are a personal choice, and tithes are required in the Bible, but churches have no right telling you to give. That's ridiculous. Those places should be bombed. :rolleyes:

No worries. I appreciate a good debate from time to time, so long as it's civilised. :)
Well, in that case...

When the bishops disavowed chunks of the Old Testament, do you think there was something wrong with the Bible, or with the bishops? It's pretty clear there was an argument.

To be honest, I don't know much about episcopalianism, so forgive me for my ignorance.

I can't post again until tomorrow. Goodnight people and god bless.

Actually there are. You'll be surprised. :p.. There was this church I went to, pretty scary, when it was giving time, they asked the people to close the doors. Then the preacher would ask the holy ark or something like that, to point out to those who haven't give last week.:p

I'd never heard of anything like that. What denomination was it?


As for the rest of the thread, I'll agree that your experience will vary wildly by the church. I've gone to a smallish (150-200 people) non-denominational church for most of my life, and I like it a lot. The sermon is usually about half an hour, which is reasonable, and we go much more in-depth than many other churches I've been to. Some churches, if they have any substance at all, don't go much farther than the salvation message and basic concepts that everyone would have learned as children if they went to any sort of Sunday school or anything. The simplicity and repetition could easily get on people's nerves, though I'm not denying the importance of the content. I'm just saying you may do better at a church that really tries to teach you something, instead of skimming the basics and passing the offering plate.

Mega-churches... :rolleyes: I went to a wannabe mega-church for a few years (not my choice; I would have rather gone to the one mentioned above) and I don't see why anyone would choose that over a smaller one. This one in particular (I can't speak for the rest) made a huge deal over money. They asked for donations to The Building Fund every week for years, and eventually built a 2000-seat auditorium... for their congregation of 700 people. Of course, then they had to maintain it, and buy big-screen TVs, and so on.

In short, don't be turned off by this bad experience. Find a church that's small enough for you to actually get to know some people, and that won't be obsessed with money. Remember that not all churches are equal, and that just because a particular building has "Church" written on the side doesn't mean that one will be worth going to.

I REALLY don't understand all the denominations and what not. Why can't Christian churches just follow the Bible as it's written? Honestly, it makes me so mad that some think they understand it better than others. Especially priests. Anyone realize they're mortal men yet?

Actually there are. You'll be surprised. :p.. There was this church I went to, pretty scary, when it was giving time, they asked the people to close the doors. Then the preacher would ask the holy ark or something like that, to point out to those who haven't give last week. I was like 'oh shit', when it was my first time in the church. :D Luckily their holy ark didn't spotted me. :p

EDIT: Just to say, I'm never going back to that church again. :eek:
The Baptist church I went to before I moved specifically asked that visitors not donate unless they really felt strongly about it. They only expected members to contribute. I really liked that when I first visited that church.

I agree with the whole denomination thing. A denomination is a divider. God's church is being divided up and being destroyed.

(Matthew 12:25). 'And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand'

Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so.

In the immortal words of Metallica:

"Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet./Make a contribution and you'll get the better seat"

Yup.. People should search for a church they like. Rather than just sit through it. I don't think every church is meant for everybody..


About the strange church. I think it's called ''Heavenly Slide of Jesus" or something strange like that. Yeah, it probably was a cult church.

In the immortal words of Metallica:

"Send me money, send me green, heaven you will meet./Make a contribution and you'll get the better seat"


*nod* It's like those stupid TBN shows.

"We'll pray for you if you send us this amount of money a month!"

Retards.

I REALLY don't understand all the denominations and what not. Why can't Christian churches just follow the Bible as it's written? Honestly, it makes me so mad that some think they understand it better than others. Especially priests. Anyone realize they're mortal men yet?
Most denominations are simply differences in emphasis rather than theology. Lutherans emphasize works, Baptists emphasize evangelism/baptism, Episcopalians/Catholics emphasize holiness of God thru ritual and liturgy, Pentecostals emphasize the Holy Spirit, etc. All Protestant religions got started from the Reformation which split from the Catholic church in 1500-something. Of course they are made up of mortal men, some of whom do indeed understand it better than others, but may emphasize different aspects of it.

*nod* It's like those stupid TBN shows.

"We'll pray for you if you send us this amount of money a month!"

Retards.

I've spent many a late night watching stupid TV Evangelists just to laugh at how stupid they sound.

"You will make this covenant with God. It's not that we want the money, it's that you have the FAITH to make that covenant!"

As you said: Retards.

I've spent many a late night watching stupid TV Evangelists just to laugh at how stupid they sound.

"You will make this covenant with God. It's not that we want the money, it's that you have the FAITH to make that covenant!"

As you said: Retards.
I've also spent many a late night watching stupid TV infomercials, or stupid TV talk shows, laughing at how stupid they sound.

"Buy this now, you'll never have a weight problem again"
"Here with us tonight is Hollywood's greatest pet psychic, Madame xxxxx"

Oh so since other laws are broken, it makes it ok to break even more of them?

I think it's more about the hypocrisy of criticizing someone about breaking the same laws that you are in fact yourself breaking. Maybe not exactly the same law, but that doesn't really matter unless there's a reason why those two laws aren't equally important.

Most denominations are simply differences in emphasis rather than theology. Lutherans emphasize works, Baptists emphasize evangelism/baptism, Episcopalians/Catholics emphasize holiness of God thru ritual and liturgy, Pentecostals emphasize the Holy Spirit, etc. All Protestant religions got started from the Reformation which split from the Catholic church in 1500-something. Of course they are made up of mortal men, some of whom do indeed understand it better than others, but may emphasize different aspects of it.

I couldn't agree more. All Christians realise that we're all tied to each other by our Faith. Different Christian denominations are merely different ways of following what is basically the same path. I don't think that can be stressed enough. Also, I'm an undergraduate university student at the moment and I plan on attending seminary in order to commit my life to service as an Episcopalian priest. Also, I am relatively close with a few others who have followed the calling to the priesthood, so believe me... I *definitely* know priests are mortal men (and women!). :)

Oh, and kudos Selgin, for referring to it as Episcopalian/Catholic. Not many realise that, even though we're protestants, Episcopalians/Anglicans refer to being a part of a "Catholic and Apostolic" Church just like the Roman Catholics.

I think it's more about the hypocrisy of criticizing someone about breaking the same laws that you are in fact yourself breaking. Maybe not exactly the same law, but that doesn't really matter unless there's a reason why those two laws aren't equally important.

Agreed, spot on. Therefore, if we're going to enforce the prejudice against homosexuals, we may as well go back to animal sacrifices. As far as the "if it isn't in the Bible argument" is concerned, I challenge you (Kwaswhakistan) to cite a specific passage in the Gospel in which Jesus Christ referred to homosexuality as a sin.

Agreed, spot on. Therefore, if we're going to enforce the prejudice against homosexuals, we may as well go back to animal sacrifices. As far as the "if it isn't in the Bible argument" is concerned, I challenge you (Kwaswhakistan) to cite a specific passage in the Gospel in which Jesus Christ referred to homosexuality as a sin.

I don't have a bible here with me, though if I did I don't think I'd look. I believe that we are to follow the old and new testament, therefore it's in the bible as a sin.

I couldn't agree more. All Christians realise that we're all tied to each other by our Faith. Different Christian denominations are merely different ways of following what is basically the same path. I don't think that can be stressed enough. Also, I'm an undergraduate university student at the moment and I plan on attending seminary in order to commit my life to service as an Episcopalian priest. Also, I am relatively close with a few others who have followed the calling to the priesthood, so believe me... I *definitely* know priests are mortal men (and women!). :)

Oh, and kudos Selgin, for referring to it as Episcopalian/Catholic. Not many realise that, even though we're protestants, Episcopalians/Anglicans refer to being a part of a "Catholic and Apostolic" Church just like the Roman Catholics.
And since the Anglican church was only created by the King of England so he could divorce his wife, it kept most of the Catholic traditions. I've worked in both denominations, and there are far more similarities than differences.

I, though Baptist, currently am a staff singer at St. Martin's Episcopal here in Houston (fastest-growing Anglican church in the US, also elder Bush's church), and you are right, we say "holy Catholic and Apostolic church" every Sunday in the liturgy.

I don't have a bible here with me, though if I did I don't think I'd look. I believe that we are to follow the old and new testament, therefore it's in the bible as a sin.

I can assure you Christ made no mention of homosexuality in the Gospel. And if we are to follow both the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament, then we would find there to be a whole slough of archaic pharasaic laws that we don't follow. For example, are you observing Passover? When was the last time any female Christians you know were isolated for a week for expelling blood? When was the last time you participated in a burnt offering? Any stonings in your datebook? And on top of that, you're pretty much doomed to damnation according to the OT if you're wearing clothes of certain blended materials.

I think you see my point. You're picking and choosing laws from Leviticus to follow or ignore at your convenience. On top of that, you're completely ignoring Christ's message of love and compassion.

I REALLY don't understand all the denominations and what not. Why can't Christian churches just follow the Bible as it's written? Honestly, it makes me so mad that some think they understand it better than others. Especially priests. Anyone realize they're mortal men yet?

Interpretation of the Bible, and yes, some form of supiriority complex.

Like Baptist think they got better bible knowledge than charismatics, Charismatics say they speak in tongues and have more miracles. Or circumcise or not, churches should be on Saturday or Sunday, Homosexuality allowed/disallowed.. And others.

But Imo, once you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior, everybody should be brothers in Christ. But just because we disagree on certain points, I think it's best to some extent to be apart. The Bible did say the body of Christ has many parts, I don't think the nose would be too happy being with the armpits. :D

just to dispell this missconception - I don't think any Church forces you to donate

Meep, wrong, the Catholic church in Austria and Germany does collect a certain "membership fee" if you want to call it that from all members (Hitler introduced that, and the Catholic church still likes it, of course, it brings a lot of money)... So they're basically forcing you to "donate", even though it's not really a donation. I still think it should be abolished.

Also... they can guilt-trip you into donating.

And again, the thread goes into homosexuality and the bible, as if the bible was the only religious book ever written... *shakes head* typical... *goes to burn a few bibles and crosses*

Meep, wrong, the Catholic church in Austria and Germany does collect a certain "membership fee" if you want to call it that from all members (Hitler introduced that, and the Catholic church still likes it, of course, it brings a lot of money)... So they're basically forcing you to "donate", even though it's not really a donation. I still think it should be abolished.

Also... they can guilt-trip you into donating.

And again, the thread goes into homosexuality and the bible, as if the bible was the only religious book ever written... *shakes head* typical... *goes to burn a few bibles and crosses*

Well no, it's not the only religious book ever written. My dad's a Buddhist and one of my best friends is a Muslim. But really, this thread's about church and not going to a masjid or synagogue.

I REALLY don't understand all the denominations and what not. Why can't Christian churches just follow the Bible as it's written? Honestly, it makes me so mad that some think they understand it better than others. Especially priests. Anyone realize they're mortal men yet?

#1 - Jesus often spoke in parables - "it is easer for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle that for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God"

#2 - Jesus didn't write anything about stem cell research - Jesus knew things would arise that he hadn't adressed in his brief time on earth and so he left behind men who could

#3 - He can't minister the sacraments if He isn't here

Oh, and kudos Selgin, for referring to it as Episcopalian/Catholic. Not many realise that, even though we're protestants, Episcopalians/Anglicans refer to being a part of a "Catholic and Apostolic" Church just like the Roman Catholics.

too bad we kicked you out

*shrug* If you're not willing to accept Jesus, you're not going to get anything out the message. Not trying to deride you, but listening to a band you know you're not going to like isn't going to make you go out and buy concert tickets.

Baptist churches are amazingly boring. They never go in depth, they don't test your faith with questions, and they don't examine deep into your life. My church makes me think deep about who I am, what I'm doing, and what I think about every aspect of life.

Honestly, if you don't want to go, then don't. Don't make fun of others just because you think the church is dumb. You're entitled to whatever opinion you want, but you can do it outside the church.


I agree with most of that and i don't want to start a denominational war, but not all Baptist churches are boring/don't examine deep. My church seriously makes me think about my life and where im going, what i believe etc and most of the time it's not boring...

too bad we kicked you out
Hahah. Yeah, well. We could talk about who kicked whom out of what, or we could focus on unity. Personally, I'm a big unity fan. Let's work on that, shall we? For some reason I found that comment funny. Not in a condescending laughable way. It just made me chuckle. ;)

I don't have a bible here with me, though if I did I don't think I'd look. I believe that we are to follow the old and new testament, therefore it's in the bible as a sin.

And that's fine. That's what you believe. It's however at odds with the majority of Christians on the planet today. So I think it is wrong of you to criticize other people because they do not share your belief.

I would also put to you: those people who disagree with your view of what to include as a sin, and what not to include, can trace their authority to make this decision back through the church directly to the Apostles and Jesus himself. I very much doubt you can claim that kind of connection for yourself. But whatever. ;)

Meep, wrong, the Catholic church in Austria and Germany does collect a certain "membership fee" if you want to call it that from all members (Hitler introduced that, and the Catholic church still likes it, of course, it brings a lot of money)... So they're basically forcing you to "donate", even though it's not really a donation. I still think it should be abolished.

Here in Finland the Lutheran church is an established church. It's funded by the government, and everyone who belongs to one of its congregations has to pay a "church tax". It's not much, and you can avoid altogether by leaving the congregation. Entrepreneurs, companies and communities however have to pay the tax, even if there's not a single member who belongs to the church.

And of course the church tax is not nearly enough to cover the expenses, so even if you don't officially pay it, it's coming out of your wallet anyway. So whether you're a catholic, a muslim, a hindu or an atheist, you're still funding the Lutheran church.

ok....1st ly, i ask taht u guys pls dont bash other denominations(like the babtist.....i 1/2 expected chatolic bashing)

about the boring part, me and my dad have gone to MANY churches in malaysia here. and most i find boring u know y? cos most of them im visiting 4 the 1st time(hes a speaker) and dunno anyone. same 4 those that goes and sits at teh back alone.....not having fellowship nor joining the other classes(cell groups/ bible studies/youth). the church is more fun if u atcually participate.....get to know the ppl and be involved....not always be a visitor.....sure boring one. u need to settle in a church and get around THEN it wont be boring. there are a few eceptions but the theory above applies to 90% of the churches here(dunno bout overseas)

I can assure you Christ made no mention of homosexuality in the Gospel. And if we are to follow both the Hebrew Scriptures as well as the New Testament, then we would find there to be a whole slough of archaic pharasaic laws that we don't follow. For example, are you observing Passover? When was the last time any female Christians you know were isolated for a week for expelling blood? When was the last time you participated in a burnt offering? Any stonings in your datebook? And on top of that, you're pretty much doomed to damnation according to the OT if you're wearing clothes of certain blended materials.

I think you see my point. You're picking and choosing laws from Leviticus to follow or ignore at your convenience. On top of that, you're completely ignoring Christ's message of love and compassion.

I don't have a bible here with me, though if I did I don't think I'd look. I believe that we are to follow the old and new testament, therefore it's in the bible as a sin.

both of u...relaks......
now, whoever that lady is(the open homo), i gather she isnt really into deep study of the bible. y? cos of certain factors. lemme adress them in point form.

1) I believe that we are to follow the old and new testament, therefore it's in the bible as a sin.

atcually no. Australus is right on the eating unclean animals and period thing. the way he reason is wrong. when the good JESUS died on our sins, he cleaned us(among other things). so we can eat previously unclean animals(im abusing that right a lot...getting fat), we can do previously uncean things(priest can touch dead bodies), and we can enter the Holy of Holiies<<cant spell(ever sung that song?) ALL by the blood of JESUS. and nothing else.

2) Australus: we dont ahve to offer any burnt offerings cos Jesus is the perfect sacrifice and stoning is kinda outdated...easier and cheaper to use the chair/some rope. :D so dont bring lousy examples pls. if u must use examples, use good and concrete ones....otehrwise it gives ur post a less intellligent look.

3)Australus: On top of that, you're completely ignoring Christ's message of love and compassion.
so ur saying, cos of His love, we can sin?
God's love extends to everyone. and also SINFULL followers. the thing is, do u love God? cos God loves u doesnt mean u can break his heart. that means u dont love him and dont deserve less of it imho. God's love isnt the issue. disobeying Him is the issue. so its ur love to Him thats the issue.

now lemme go back to no 1.......
Australus+Kwaswhakistan!: dont mix the things that the bible said we can or cannot do. like in point 1, these things that Australus pointed out are considered unclean things. but cos uncleanthings are abolished(read point 1 4 y), doesnt mean things like the 10 commanments are cancled. nor is many other things. thus homo is still in the sinful part......cos His sacrifce didnt clean that....and never will. u must understand the impact of His death THEN ull understand y arguements for homos like God's love and being picky onf bible laws dont apply.......k?


if u still dont understand(both of u or any other person) do ask and quote the relevant place.....

And again, the thread goes into homosexuality and the bible, as if the bible was the only religious book ever written... *shakes head* typical... *goes to burn a few bibles and crosses*

thats nice. anyway would it suprise u taht the bible isnt atcually a religious book at teh start? lemem tell u something about the bible.......how it was....compiled. it si made of 66 parts called Books. it is atcually a historical document.....more that a religious book if we dont look at teh religious side.
if ur a historian, ull find things like letters and biographies and announcements as GREAT historical value. now, most of the bible fall into that(or 1/2....cant remember) example, 21 of the books are letters from a to b. (romans to jude)
and looking at 66 books, all written at driffrent times whos VALIDITY has been confrimed as accurate(cos otehr things that was written in it(the 66 books) was crossed checked with other sources/historical documents/evidence) all happen to say the same thing. GOD is da One! so looking from a sientific(or statiscally/historically) point of view, its hard to say that whats in the bible isnt right. cos everything but the 'God' part has been proven. woudl be off if these ppl all over the many years happen to decided to rite about some spritual thing that the same as a joke. hmmmmm startign to preach......... ANYWAY, its more a historical document.......my parents came back from egypt a while ago and they were trilled at seeing the places taht the bible mention, where things happen(they mark it and make some a historical site i think).

i hope im coherent above......lazy to proof read....ill let u ppl do it 4 me :D

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.
Sounds like Hillsong in Sydney. Fuck off you psychos! And my family lives in Sydney's "Bible belt." Ugh Ugh Ugh!

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.

God made church boring to test the faithful. You have failed. Have fun in hell! ;)

I REALLY don't understand all the denominations and what not. Why can't Christian churches just follow the Bible as it's written? Honestly, it makes me so mad that some think they understand it better than others. Especially priests. Anyone realize they're mortal men yet?

Mortal men. Just like the authors of the Bible. Jesus never wrote so much as a footnote. The gospels were written 20 to 50 years after Christ's death.

I understand the need to have an anchor for one's faith. But too many -- FAR too many -- people who debate theology and religion tend to parse out the Bible for passages that suit their arguments. If one part is absolutely true, then doesn't it all have to be true? And either the new covenant of Jesus invalidated/superseded the Old Testament or it didn't -- which is it?

I don't ask these questions to be flippant, but to point out how my personal faith has very little to do with the use of the Bible as anything more than inspiration (the Song of Solomon, for example, is quite inspiring, as is Ecclesiastes). Point is, a religion was being crafted by the writers of these epistles. It is the utmost in naivete to assume there was absolutely no "sexing up" of the basic story to drum up membership and support across the Mediterranean.

It isn't Christianity that turns me off -- far from it. It's the application of sledgehammer tactics to complex ideas in order to convert the most or condemn the most or control the most or do whatever it is that needs to be done in the eyes of the people in positions of power. This isn't me being a cynic, it's me observing those who use faith as a guide as opposed to those who use it as a crutch, a weapon, or a barrier.

I've been to good churches (my favorite being St. Mark's in Seattle's Capital Hill neighborhood) and repugnant ones (Casey Treat and the Foursquare Outlet Mall concept comes to mind). My suggestion to the original post would be to be a true seeker -- that means looking for more than one opportunity to see faith at work. It means finding a place to worship that refuses to engage in any kind of racket or places a premium on which parishoner is the best dressed (every time I wanted to go to an ex-girlfriend's church dressed comfortably in jeans and a nice cotton t-shirt, the look of horror said more than any kind of Biblical justification for dressing to "show respect in the House of the Lord" -- right...and Christ only chose to hang out with the well-dressed sinners...).

You must make up your own mind, but you cannot do it based on one experience. Nor can you do it based on ten, if seven of them were close to identical. Vive la difference -- shop around.

God made church boring to test the faithful. You have failed. Have fun in hell! ;)

God made church boring because Ve has better things to do than listen to three billion people waste hours a week prostrating themselves for the sake of not getting kicked out of Vis Eternal Shindig.

GenX']
--snip--
so dont bring lousy examples pls. if u must use examples, use good and concrete ones....otehrwise it gives ur post a less intellligent look.


You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're kidding.

I don't want to get into a flamewar, but your post couldn't have a "less intelligent look" if you'd run your hands through a woodchipper before typing it. You can't refute sound arguments by posting them "in point form" (hilarious, considering the organization of the rest of your post) and then saying, essentially, "because I said so, and my interpretation of God's Word is absolute and correct."

So I MUST assume you were kidding.

But I guess it could be a catholic thing to be quiet and holy.

It works for me, as for female pasters, such as you mentioned from Singapore, I dont agree, they look ridiculous, only men are fit to serve the Lord in this capacity.

"I don't ask these questions to be flippant, but to point out how my personal faith has very little to do with the use of the Bible as anything more than inspiration (the Song of Solomon, for example, is quite inspiring, as is Ecclesiastes). Point is, a religion was being crafted by the writers of these epistles. It is the utmost in naivete to assume there was absolutely no "sexing up" of the basic story to drum up membership and support across the Mediterranean."

That, sir, is very much an assertion and has no foundation in fact other than it's something that you've come to believe.

I can assure you Christ made no mention of homosexuality in the Gospel.

Christ didn't, but it's blatant in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that homosexuality is a sin.

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.
Dude, if you're not into hearing about Jesus why did you go to church? Did you think they'd be handing out free copies of Hustler magazine or something?

Christ didn't, but it's blatant in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that homosexuality is a sin.
What the fuck were they doing in Gomorrah? I understand sodomy, but what's gomorrahmy?

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.

If you don't go to church regularly and, from what it sounds like, don't like Christianity all that much, It's obvious that you'd find church boring, so it's your own stupid fault for going.

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.


I remember going to churvh with a freind of mine several months ago and I felt the same damn way lol

Christ didn't, but it's blatant in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that homosexuality is a sin.
Uh... did you read that story? It was the inhospitality of the townspeople that got them killed. Rape is not about sex, it is about power, you don't have to be gay to rape another man, look at prison.

Furthermore, that was the old testament.

I dont go to church and today i thought "what the hell." I have never been so bored in my life. Jesus loves me and i love jeses, blah blah. I almost laughed out in front of everybody. Plus the church is big, i mean big. Most malls are smaller than this church and yet they want me to give them money, for what, to buy a new expensive electronic equipment. No, i dont think so. Every third word was jesus. It drove me insane. I'm never gonna go back there again.

you poor thing, being forced to go to church - the ultimate proof of boredom.

Uh... did you read that story? It was the inhospitality of the townspeople that got them killed. Rape is not about sex, it is about power, you don't have to be gay to rape another man, look at prison.

Furthermore, that was the old testament.
Jesus PREACHED from the Old Testament. Everything he said came out of the old testament. Look at Love thy neighbor as thyself. It's in there. Jesus only set the record straight to prevent corrupt leaders from using the law as a beating stick. The Jews did have certain laws that were only for them because they were special. But Paul clears up a lot of your confusion if you ever take a look. If you're going to be arguing with the Bible, atleast get your facts straight.

Church is meant to be serious, part of penance is to sit through it with out complaint.
Does everything have to instantly excite you, you are like most teenagers now, very shallow, easily bored and boorish in the process.Oh, no, no.... Church is not supposed to be boring. It usually (only) is when you don't want to be there. :p

It works for me, as for female pasters, such as you mentioned from Singapore, I dont agree, they look ridiculous, only men are fit to serve the Lord in this capacity.I disagree. Women can serve as pastors as well, and sometimes do a better job than men.
God has even had to ordain women when He could not find a man to do the job. :eek:


Actually there are. You'll be surprised. :p.. There was this church I went to, pretty scary, when it was giving time, they asked the people to close the doors. Then the preacher would ask the holy ark or something like that, to point out to those who haven't give last week. I was like 'oh shit', when it was my first time in the church. :D Luckily their holy ark didn't spotted me. :p

EDIT: Just to say, I'm never going back to that church again. :eek:Holy crap! :eek:

My message to the evangelicals who have posted here:

I find it really amusing (in a sad sort of way) that you're arguing what superficial features makes one church better than another. It's not about how big or small a church is, how charismatic or "boring" a pastor is, traditional service structure versus more modern structures. It's all about Jesus. That is the one unifying factor of all evangelical churches. It's dangerous to think that we can win people to Christ by the size of our church, the men behind the pulpit and the style in which we run our services. While these can be important, they are secondary.
I do agree that the size of the church does not matter. I also agree that it is about Jesus. I think the most important thing is whether or not the Holy Spirit is there. If it is not, the place will be "dead". I do disagree when you say that the pastor does not matter. He or she certainly does! If the pastor is in love with Jesus, it makes all the difference. A pastor who drones on for hours, could put the best of us to sleep. :eek: We have one main pastor and a few elders who preach if he must be absent, for whatever reason, I find they all have different preaching styles, and any human would naturally prefer one over another. :)


How does a man enter the kingdom of God? By the Holy Spirit. A man cannot come to Christ less he is drawn by the Spirit. Therefore, why are we so quick to blame the church for this man's "bad experience?" It may be that he simply refused to listen to the Spirit's stirring. It may be that he was not willing to make the decision to forsake sin and pursue righteousness. I don't know. I agree.

Remember, God can save you wherever you are...church, home, work, school.... Let's join together in prayer for this individual who has at least opened his heart to see what it is that drives us to be who we are. We are the body of Christ.
-DougTrue

That, sir, is very much an assertion and has no foundation in fact other than it's something that you've come to believe.

Yeah, so? What's your point? Much of what's been said and will continue to be said here is assertion. I never said it was fact. I believe that all myths, legends and even histories grow and gain complexity and flavor with time -- the Bible is no exception.

By the way, the whole "that, sir" thing? Yeah, that's unnecessary -- fake respect is as much an insult as if you'd called me a name. Don't bother with it, it demeans all involved.

Uh... did you read that story? It was the inhospitality of the townspeople that got them killed. Rape is not about sex, it is about power, you don't have to be gay to rape another man, look at prison.

Furthermore, that was the old testament.

Uhm, obviously you were the one who didn't read it. They were killed because they demanded to have sex with every man there. (Men + men, I mean.) When the angels came to Lot, the men of the village went to his house after they found out there were new inhabitants, and told him to give them up. And hello? That's homosexuality.

Uhm, obviously you were the one who didn't read it. They were killed because they demanded to have sex with every man there. (Men + men, I mean.) When the angels came to Lot, the men of the village went to his house after they found out there were new inhabitants, and told him to give them up. And hello? That's homosexuality.
Not nessecarily-it could be bisexuality or greed or desperation. ;)

Not nessecarily-it could be bisexuality or greed or desperation. ;)

lol
Well, if you look at it that way...
But I'm pretty sure it wasn't. :p
The Bible is pretty clear on that... Exodus, correct?

The Bible is pretty clear on that... Exodus, correct?

Genesis 18 and 19 (mostly 19)

Genesis 18 and 19 (mostly 19)

Thank you. :)

Christ didn't, but it's blatant in the story of Sodom and Gomorrah that homosexuality is a sin.

Some would say that, within the context of the passage, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed not for homosexuality, but for their inhospitability, greed, threats of gang-rape. It should be said that, within the cultural context of the Biblical middle-east, public man-on-man gang rape was seen as a means of psychological torture and humiliation for obvious reasons.

As far as the literal interpretation of the passage - within context - is concerned, one could say that the passage Genesis 19 states that homosexual rape is a sin. It makes no mention of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah for consentual homosexual activity. In my opinion, to say that the story of Sodom and Gamorrah is a treatise on the evils of homosexuality is about as sensible as saying that the story of Jonah and the whale is a treatise on fishing.

Some would say that, within the context of the passage, Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed not for homosexuality, but for their inhospitability, greed, threats of gang-rape. It should be said that, within the cultural context of the Biblical middle-east, public man-on-man gang rape was seen as a means of psychological torture and humiliation for obvious reasons.

As far as the literal interpretation of the passage - within context - is concerned, one could say that the passage Genesis 19 states that homosexual rape is a sin. It makes no mention of destroying Sodom and Gomorrah for consentual homosexual activity. In my opinion, to say that the story of Sodom and Gamorrah is a treatise on the evils of homosexuality is about as sensible as saying that the story of Jonah and the whale is a treatise on fishing.

My 2 cents.

It's not worth answering. It's not important, and has no bearing on Christianity whatsoever. If you address these things you just start getting draged down the OT path, and end up trying to explain things that aren't really relevant anyway. You can be a good christian, and never even glance at the OT, so why worry about it?

From what I recall of my C of E upbringing, Christ never mentioned Sodom and Gomorrah at all, ever. And it's not about winning theological debates anyway.

Just this atheist's point of view.

My 2 cents.

It's not worth answering. It's not important, and has no bearing on Christianity whatsoever. If you address these things you just start getting draged down the OT path, and end up trying to explain things that aren't really relevant anyway. You can be a good christian, and never even glance at the OT, so why worry about it?

From what I recall of my C of E upbringing, Christ never mentioned Sodom and Gomorrah at all, ever. And it's not about winning theological debates anyway.

Just this atheist's point of view.

Sometimes I wonder why athiests even want to put in their 2 cents when it comes to the subject of theism. I don't mean to be rude, but I am curious. It's like someone from Africa arguing about the political state of Canada. I mean, why would you even care? It strikes me as rather odd, since you obviously denounce everything that has to do with God.

Sometimes I wonder why athiests even want to put in their 2 cents when it comes to the subject of theism. I don't mean to be rude, but I am curious. It's like someone from Africa arguing about the political state of Canada. I mean, why would you even care? It strikes me as rather odd, since you obviously denounce everything that has to do with God.

Perhaps because we don't like to see the sectarian conflict?

Frankly, I don't judge you for what you believe, but you should stop trying to enforce you view on others. Especially when it is obviously so incorrect in respect of certain details.

Also, while I don't believe in god, culturally, I am an episcopalian, and I am sick and tired of people misrepresenting what that entails.

Fair enough?

I disagree. Women can serve as pastors as well, and sometimes do a better job than men.
God has even had to ordain women when He could not find a man to do the job. :eek:


Yeech, women priests are just so wrong. I could of course accept ancient Egyptian priestesses guarding the shrine of some sacred snake, funny that.

As for God ordaining women personally to be priests, can we see some proof?

Yeech, women priests are just so wrong. I could of course accept ancient Egyptian priestesses guarding the shrine of some sacred snake, funny that.

As for God ordaining women personally to be priests, can we see some proof?
There’s no verifiable proof god personally ordained ANYONE :P

Perhaps because we don't like to see the sectarian conflict?

Frankly, I don't judge you for what you believe, but you should stop trying to enforce you view on others. Especially when it is obviously so incorrect in respect of certain details.

Also, while I don't believe in god, culturally, I am an episcopalian, and I am sick and tired of people misrepresenting what that entails.

Fair enough?

I'm not enforcing it. I'm telling it like it is.

If you don't believe in God, you're an athiest. Why do you have to have a pretty name to make it sound better?

There’s no verifiable proof god personally ordained ANYONE :P

Exactly.

I'm not enforcing it. I'm telling it like it is.

If you don't believe in God, you're an athiest. Why do you have to have a pretty name to make it sound better?
Its not to make it sound better there are differences in beliefs … some of them are not big but they are there and needed for an accurate description of beliefs

Like agnostic and atheist most people argue that they are the same (they a lot of time hold much the same beliefs or lack of beliefs) but there are differences