NationStates Jolt Archive

So, can anyone explain me what the deal with those guys?
When one stops and the other starts?
The bible says something about it?
(this is an honest question)

The bible says nothing about that because allah is the koran and jehova was randomly made up by some douche who wanted to start a cult. Dumbass.

They're the same deity. The god of Abraham. Abraham called his god "Elaw" or "Allah". "Jehovah" is the incorrectly pronounced descriptor of the Hebrew phrase comprised of the letters Yod, Het, Vav, Het (YHWH) and is not a name of the Almighty.

It's more of a joke. Moses said, "Who should I say sent me, Oh Lord?" and the response was so very Jewish: Tell them I Am sent you. It's sort of like naming someone "No-one".

Who is with you?
No one.

Funny, eh? God's such a prankster.

Christians just don't get the joke, is all. I pity them. They hear no music.

Well I was raised a Witness, and I studied Islam, so I have some knowledge. BTW, I am no longer a Witness cause it is more depresssing then a cancer ward!

Allah: It is the Arabic word for God. Like say in my country this is a hat. In your country, a sombreo, same thing different word

Jehovah: It is a translation of Ja which is a translation of Yahweh, the formal name of God in the Judeo/Christian tradtition

Funny, eh? God's such a prankster.

Yeah, I thought it particularly amusing when he destroyed a whole city with fire and sulphur for homosexuality, and when he drowned the whole world bar eight people and some animals.

Allah: It is the Arabic word for God.


Ilah is the Arabic word for god. Allah is the name of the one true god.

Jehovah: It is a translation of Ja which is a translation of Yahweh, the formal name of God in the Judeo/Christian tradtition


Again ... wrong. See my post above for where Jehovah comes from. It isn't a name.

Yeah, I thought it particularly amusing when he destroyed a whole city with fire and sulphur for homosexuality, and when he drowned the whole world bar eight people and some animals.

1] Not for homosexuality. Only Christians will tell you that and when it comes to Tanakh, they're usually dead wrong.

2] Drowning the world was to cleanse the nephilim. Had to be done. If you want to plant a new crop, you have to burn the field.

Again ... wrong. See my post above for where Jehovah comes from. It isn't a name.

At least, that's your interpretation, or the Islamic interpretation.

If I am not mistaken, it depends on how you translate the hebrew characters Yod Heh Wah Heh (sorry, don't have hebrew characters available). You can translate it several ways, but the name itself was only to be uttered by the High Priest of the temple, and so the name doesn't really have any place in today's Jewish traditions. So as to how you pronounce the name of God, that answer can only be given by God himself.

I don't speak Ancient Hebrew, as I'm sure you don't either, so the translation is pretty much whatever. Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah, Adonai, all are "correct" translations of the name of God.

1] Not for homosexuality. Only Christians will tell you that and when it comes to Tanakh, they're usually dead wrong.

2] Drowning the world was to cleanse the nephilim. Had to be done. If you want to plant a new crop, you have to burn the field.

A question: Do you really believe in Islamic, Jewish, and or Christian fairy tales?

Ilah is the Arabic word for god. Allah is the name of the one true god..

I could have sworn that before mohomad though, Allah was the head God of a polyestic arabian faith. Turning him into a monotheistic god seems a tad sacreligous to me.

I could have sworn that before mohomad though, Allah was the head God of a polyestic arabian faith. Turning him into a monotheistic god seems a tad sacreligous to me.

Very true. Plus it is amazing that "Allah" picked some camel jockey to talk to.

They're the same deity. The god of Abraham. Abraham called his god "Elaw" or "Allah". "Jehovah" is the incorrectly pronounced descriptor of the Hebrew phrase comprised of the letters Yod, Het, Vav, Het (YHWH) and is not a name of the Almighty.

It's more of a joke. Moses said, "Who should I say sent me, Oh Lord?" and the response was so very Jewish: Tell them I Am sent you. It's sort of like naming someone "No-one".

Who is with you?
No one.

Funny, eh? God's such a prankster.

Christians just don't get the joke, is all. I pity them. They hear no music.

Ha ha, stolen from the odyssey. But funnier in the greek, because it has yet another layer. (Thus when polyphemis cries, "no-one has defeated me" he is also saying "cunning has defeated me." Rather excellent stuff, really).

Christians just don't get the joke, is all. I pity them. They hear no music.

You keep making comments like that and some day you'll be facing the music.

Now now, let's all be nice.

And dude, The Motor City Madmen, just because you don't believe in something is no need to attempt to attack it and make others feel bad. Whatever you belive in, malice is generally looked on as a negative emotion, wheather you be religious or not.

So let's all chill and be friends, 'k? Think how awesome stuff would be if we all had malice towards none

Now now, let's all be nice.

And dude, The Motor City Madmen, just because you don't believe in something is no need to attempt to attack it and make others feel bad. Whatever you belive in, malice is generally looked on as a negative emotion, wheather you be religious or not.

So let's all chill and be friends, 'k? Think how awesome stuff would be if we all had malice towards none

Ok, thanks for the hippy speech.

see? Again with the attacks. Are you saying it wouldn't be better if people weren't unnessicarily hurtful?

see? Again with the attacks. Are you saying it wouldn't be better if people weren't unnessicarily hurtful?

Well, if I was being hurtful, learn to take a joke.

The funny thing is no one calls out K's attacks on christians.

I'm not hurt by your comments. But it seemed to me that your point with some of your comments was to say malicious things about certain things that people belive in. Forgive me if I was wrong.

And I do not recal attacking Christains. Unless "K" refers to someone else.

I must depart now, I shall see your responce tomarrow

At least, that's your interpretation, or the Islamic interpretation.


Actually, it isn't mine or the Islamic. I started Hebrew school at 3 years old, studying among the Orthodox and come from a family of Breslov Chassids.

After 29 years of study, I believe I can speak with authority on this matter.

A question: Do you really believe in Islamic, Jewish, and or Christian fairy tales?

Raised Jewish, am now Muslim. Yes, actually, I do believe. Quite devoutly.

So, can anyone explain me what the deal with those guys?
When one stops and the other starts?
The bible says something about it?
(this is an honest question)

Christianity: God
Judaism: Jehovah
Islam: Allah

They are the same god, but different religions use different names.

I could have sworn that before mohomad though, Allah was the head God of a polyestic arabian faith.

Nah ... Abraham was calling the Almighty "Elaw" (Allah) long before the days of Mohammed. Jack Chick, however, disagrees.

You keep making comments like that and some day you'll be facing the music.

Is that a threat? Gonna send goons to my house? Charming. I do so adore internet thugs. You're so cute.

Well, if I was being hurtful, learn to take a joke.

Referring to Mohammed as "some camel jockey" isn't a joke. It's a racist slur.

The funny thing is no one calls out K's attacks on christians.

People do it all the time. They just don't do it very well.

Ha ha, stolen from the odyssey. But funnier in the greek, because it has yet another layer. (Thus when polyphemis cries, "no-one has defeated me" he is also saying "cunning has defeated me." Rather excellent stuff, really).

Yep! Though not stolen ... I'm pretty sure Torah was written before the Odyssey. ;)

I could have sworn that before mohomad though, Allah was the head God of a polyestic arabian faith. Turning him into a monotheistic god seems a tad sacreligous to me.

In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was indeed the name of the chief god of the Arabian pantheon (al-[i]lah ~ "The God"). There is reason to believe that a similar state of affairs in ancient Canaan turned El from a sort of prominent Semitic god into "The God" of the ancient Hebrews (who were originally henotheistic or monolatrous before becoming truly monotheistic, by the period following the Babylonian captivity). Both in turn parallel the evolution of Zeus into "The God" (as he was often named) of the Greeks, although they retained the other gods as such.

Incidentally - Adonai, mentioned briefly earlier, isn't a name, but rather a title ("lord" - the name of the Greek god "Adonis" derives from Phoenecian, a Semitic language related to Hebrew and Arabic). The word "Jehovah" comes from the Hebrew tetragrammaton ("four letter word") YHWH as pronounced with the vowels of the title Adonai ("yahowa[i]h" or "yahova[i]h").

Yep! Though not stolen ... I'm pretty sure Torah was written before the Odyssey. ;)

Oh, I doubt that. Most probably Homer did not even write the Odyssey, but rather compiled and refined it from existing oral tradition. Homer himself can be placed around 8th century BCE, and the oral tradition possibly extends back even further than 12th century BCE.

The Torah was written between 1150 - 400 BCE. In any case, the joke only really works in ancient greek.

They're the same deity. The god of Abraham. Abraham called his god "Elaw" or "Allah". "Jehovah" is the incorrectly pronounced descriptor of the Hebrew phrase comprised of the letters Yod, Het, Vav, Het (YHWH) and is not a name of the Almighty.


What does Elaw mean in Jewish?

Yahweh (YHWH) or Jehovah has a meaning as well doesn't it?

What does Elaw mean in Jewish?

Yahweh (YHWH) or Jehovah has a meaning as well doesn't it?
There are doubtless those who know better than me, but I'll have a go.

Not sure about Elaw in particular, but the El- bit is a general word for god/God. Gen 31 speaks of the God of Bethel, 'el Beyth-'el. "Elohim" is the plural form, "Elyon" means God Most High, etc.

As to Yahweh, just because it's a play on words doesn't mean it's not a name. The mere fact it's used as a name secures its nature as a name! It means "I AM", at its essence. A more perfect 'name' for an eternal Creator God I can't imagine.

Christianity: God
Judaism: Jehovah
Islam: Allah
I heard many times in roman-catholic Church a word "Jehovah". I also read it many times in Holy Bible that had included roman-catholic priests interpretation.
A question: Do you really believe in Islamic, Jewish, and or Christian fairy tales?
Nope. For me it's only tales that suppose to teach us somethnig. Like myths. Just make some effort and see how really old is the "Old Testament". In those times people just used metaphores.
1] Not for homosexuality. Only Christians will tell you that and when it comes to Tanakh, they're usually dead wrong.
Wrong. I'm Christian and also many Roman-Catholics will agree with you. It's not Christians - it's just stupid devots that just don't get the point.

For me all monotheistic God's names and even all polytheistic entities are just this same. I think that every religion says that God is something beyond understanding. I was philosophical atheist for many years but when you experience mystical enlightment you just get the proof.

What does Elaw mean in Jewish?

Yahweh (YHWH) or Jehovah has a meaning as well doesn't it?

Elaw or Elah is the name given to Abraham as the name of the Almighty. Most Jewish people today use Hashem, though. However many Jews still use the name Allah. Introduced as such in Genesis 17:1 when Abraham was still merely Abram by saying, "I am El Shaddai". (God Almighty)

The YHWH is a play on several constructs of the Hebrew form of "to be". Technically, it would be translated "I am being which I will be and was as I have been". Most people simply say "I am", though. There are two proper ways of pronouncing it and "Jehovah" isn't close to either.

\"I think that every religion says that God is something beyond understanding.\"

Exactly, man. So you really can\'t pin alot of this stuff down or understand it completely. The true true devtees of any religion are those who are able to move past the symbolism to an understanding that can\'t be put into words. It\'s like the Budda said: Wisdom cannot be taught, it must be come apon on one\'s own.

1] Not for homosexuality. Only Christians will tell you that and when it comes to Tanakh, they're usually dead wrong.

2] Drowning the world was to cleanse the nephilim. Had to be done. If you want to plant a new crop, you have to burn the field.Someone's interested in gnosticism...

As far as the name YHWH ("I am the one who is") goes, it's a definition of God, as opposed to polytheistic gods. God is the being who is the cause of His existence.

1] Not for homosexuality. Only Christians will tell you that and when it comes to Tanakh, they're usually dead wrong.

2] Drowning the world was to cleanse the nephilim. Had to be done. If you want to plant a new crop, you have to burn the field.

Fair enough, I'm just saying you can't paint the Almighty as a kindly old man with a quaint sense of humour. I know admitting any fault in Him isn't really on the cards from a believer's point of view, but He definitely has a dark side, no matter how flippantly you phrase the supposed destruction of most of mankind.

So, can anyone explain me what the deal with those guys?
When one stops and the other starts?
The bible says something about it?
(this is an honest question)
Yahweh, or rather YHWH, is the symbol used to represent the name of the Israelite perception of deity in the Bible. Allah (from al-Ilah) is the Arabic word used to address the deity symbolized by Yahweh, equivalent to El/Eloah in the Bible (used in the plural Elohim).
The deity though is really the Sumerian/Akkadian god Yah, re-defined or re-interpreted to their own ends by the Israelites during the Exodus.

They're the same deity. The god of Abraham. Abraham called his god "Elaw" or "Allah". "Jehovah" is the incorrectly pronounced descriptor of the Hebrew phrase comprised of the letters Yod, Het, Vav, Het (YHWH) and is not a name of the Almighty.

It's more of a joke. Moses said, "Who should I say sent me, Oh Lord?" and the response was so very Jewish: Tell them I Am sent you. It's sort of like naming someone "No-one".

Who is with you?
No one.

Funny, eh? God's such a prankster.

Christians just don't get the joke, is all. I pity them. They hear no music.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if God has a sense of humour, in fact, I'd almost set it as a requirement.

\"I think that every religion says that God is something beyond understanding.\"

Exactly, man. So you really can\'t pin alot of this stuff down or understand it completely. The true true devtees of any religion are those who are able to move past the symbolism to an understanding that can\'t be put into words. It\'s like the Budda said: Wisdom cannot be taught, it must be come apon on one\'s own.
I used "devote" as insult ;). In Poland we use that word for someone who is extremaly dogmatic and orthodox in belives.
I'm that kind of person that goes beyond symbols. That's why I'm "esoteric christian". I practice deep prayer, Zen meditations, draw mandals, use psychedelic drugs, lucid dreaming, astral projection and many, many more...
Sorry if it sounded like justification - I just don't want to be misunderstood ;)
Someone's interested in gnosticism...
Me! Me!

I personally wouldn't be surprised if God has a sense of humour, in fact, I'd almost set it as a requirement.
God is a comedian playing to an audience to afraid to laugh - Voltaire

Fair enough, I'm just saying you can't paint the Almighty as a kindly old man with a quaint sense of humour.

It is one aspect of the Divine, just as it is one aspect of me. I am sometimes a kindly prankster, but can tear into someone like a pitbull if the need arises.

Are we not the image of the Divine? Why would we have so many emotions and aspects and the Divine only one?

There is no broad brush that can be used to paint the Almighty.

So, can anyone explain me what the deal with those guys?
When one stops and the other starts?
The bible says something about it?
(this is an honest question)

Jehovah, a latinization of "Yahweh" or rather the Hewbrew tetragram YHWH (Since they don't use consonants) is a term used for "God" in the bible. It is analogous to "God" and sometimes Adonai (Lord) is used in place of it.

Allah is arabic for "god" and decends from the Title of the early moon-god Sin (al-ilel).. In modern Arabic it means merely "God"... God as it is known in English is traced through the Koine Greek terms theios and Theos (minor-diety and diety respectfully)...

Really all the diffentiation has more to do with etymology (evolution of language and usage) than their being in real concrete differnces. Arabic speaking Christians reffer to "God" as "Allah" because that is the arabic version of the term... The Hewbrews use Adonai mostly (Lord) when reffering to YHWH, because of religious aversion to using the "proper name".

god may be real(i choose to believe)but religion is the device of man. its always been used as a sadistic control measure. it was the government before the actual government became more powerful than religion. i blame the church and its misguided ....ahem...."leaders" for many of the ills in the world like sexual repression.

familiar with the bible? really? are you sure? know about the hidden books? know what happened to jesus during the years that his "wandering" is unaccounted for? did you know that the church keeps secrets from its masses? did you know that much of the "christian" traditions were adapted or outright stolen from pre-christian pagan ceremonies in order to help with converting the pagan leaders? did you know that christians of the ancient world worshipped more than one god and did blood sacrifices even as they followed the one God?

or consider this: would you follow a god that tells you to kill children? what about the great flood that wiped out men,women,and children? would a merciful god do that? would a merciful god send you to an eternity of suffering after claiming to give you free will? i would never follow such a god.

all you have to do is do a little historical research and you can find all the lies and inconsistencies in the bible that was obviously done to control people by fear and guilt. the bible is a fairy tale/horror story. the god that created you does not needlessly kill innocents. he doesnt lie to you or throw cosmic temper tantrums. a god of perfect love and understanding does not do these things.


and then the pope comes out against a popular childrens book because it is satanic.....sigh (shakes head)


instead of looking to the church for their coddling lies,why dont you seek a personal relationship with god? you dont need a church or a greedy evangelist to talk to god. this is what jesus taught his followers before he was...crucified! aha! they killed him because he was a threat to their power...

stop.relax. meditate. if your mind is calm and your desire is strong you can speak with god. (seek me with all your heart and you shall find me) god has given you the ability to speak with him any time. people have just forgotten how to use that gift. the lies of man have separated you from god...

I'm not familiar with the bible, but well... since the Catholic church censored out all the not so comfortable parts (for them) in order to maintain their position of power (which they had in Europe for several centuries) it's not a really interesting read anyway. It's like watching old Nazi news reels, funny at times, but overall annoying after a while.

But... I love this: "It's more of a joke. Moses said, "Who should I say sent me, Oh Lord?" and the response was so very Jewish: Tell them I Am sent you. It's sort of like naming someone "No-one"."

rofl

It is one aspect of the Divine, just as it is one aspect of me. I am sometimes a kindly prankster, but can tear into someone like a pitbull if the need arises.

Are we not the image of the Divine? Why would we have so many emotions and aspects and the Divine only one?

There is no broad brush that can be used to paint the Almighty.
I don't actually believe in any god, unless in a very untraditional sense; too many contradictions and leaps of faith. I just thought you had a cutesy image of god that I didn't see, obviously that's not the case

After 29 years of study, I believe I can speak with authority on this matter.

But the fact remains that it is still only your opinion. I have no formal education in Ancient Hebrew, and as such cannot translate properly the name of God, nor would I wish to if I could speak it. While you may consider yourself an expert, I do not. A panel of impartial's well-versed in Hebrew texts might be able to correctly determine the name of God, but it still may be wrong. I am more likely to believe the panel, rather than just one person.

I used "devote" as insult ;). In Poland we use that word for someone who is extremaly dogmatic and orthodox in belives.
I'm that kind of person that goes beyond symbols. That's why I'm "esoteric christian". I practice deep prayer, Zen meditations, draw mandals, use psychedelic drugs, lucid dreaming, astral projection and many, many more...
Sorry if it sounded like justification - I just don't want to be misunderstood ;)

Me! Me!


We need more Christans like you here in the States

That is a interesting Question. It depends on where you were raised. Who raised and taught you. Different countries have different beliefs. Different countries and nations worship different things. Take Shoshoni for instance. We worship the creator of the sun,moon,stars,rocks,land, and all animals. It one have their place and purpose. We worship the Great One who appears in white, so bright you cannot look upon him without falling to your knees. In his presence you are nothing. We worship the spirit, and We worship the son, and the Father. Be he Yahweh,alla,or God. He(G0D)is creator of all and ruler of all. When I judge others and their beliefs will I not in return be judged more harshly? The Great Creator or all will bring everyone to their knees and they will confess His Son as Lord of all. AMEN

Yahweh, or rather YHWH, is the symbol used to represent the name of the Israelite perception of deity in the Bible. Allah (from al-Ilah) is the Arabic word used to address the deity symbolized by Yahweh, equivalent to El/Eloah in the Bible (used in the plural Elohim).
The deity though is really the Sumerian/Akkadian god Yah, re-defined or re-interpreted to their own ends by the Israelites during the Exodus.

YAHWEH is the name God himself used when speaking to Abraham(Abram). The Jews removed the vowels when writing it, out of respect for this sacred name, that God Himself used.

And yes, Jehovah is the combination of YHWH and the vowels from Adonai, as mentioned before.

The deity that the Jews followed (YHWH) IS NOT the Sumerian god or anyother god redefined or reinterpreted.

It is the same God who created the world, the same God who made the covenant with Abraham (which incidently happened long before the Israelites were even in Egypt,) and the same God who became flesh in Jesus Christ.


As for Christianity vs Islam:

Supposedly, they both believe in Allah as God the Father. The key difference is how they percieve Jesus. Christians believe that Jesus is God the Son, who IS God, and was with God before creation, who became flesh and died for our sins. (John 1 and John 3)

Muslims believe that Jesus was merely a prophet, who was succeeded by Mohammed. Christians believe that Jesus was (and is) the final Prophet, Priest, and King.

But the fact remains that it is still only your opinion. I have no formal education in Ancient Hebrew, and as such cannot translate properly the name of God, nor would I wish to if I could speak it. While you may consider yourself an expert, I do not. A panel of impartial's well-versed in Hebrew texts might be able to correctly determine the name of God, but it still may be wrong. I am more likely to believe the panel, rather than just one person.

It is understandable you'd think as such, but there is no impartial panel. The people who study these things are, for the most part, Jews and Jewish councils. Some Christians study such aspects of the Divine, but very few secular organizations bother.

It is my opinion, yes, I will concede that much. However, it is opinion shared by the great Rabbis all the way back to Hillel and beyond. :) Even though they may be biased, I consider them an authority. Secularity is not the end-all be-all of knowledge.

YAHWEH is the name God himself used when speaking to Abraham(Abram).

God introduced himself to Abraham as "El Shaddai" (Gen 17:1). You're thinking of Moses.

It is understandable you'd think as such, but there is no impartial panel. The people who study these things are, for the most part, Jews and Jewish councils. Some Christians study such aspects of the Divine, but very few secular organizations bother.

It is my opinion, yes, I will concede that much. However, it is opinion shared by the great Rabbis all the way back to Hillel and beyond. :) Even though they may be biased, I consider them an authority. Secularity is not the end-all be-all of knowledge.

Do you reject the documentary hypothesis?

The key difference is how they percieve Jesus. Christians believe that Jesus is God the Son, who IS God, and was with God before creation, who became flesh and died for our sins. (John 1 and John 3)
the problem with that dogma is while it may be a prevailing view for most religions following the counsel of nicea. the teaching is not explicitly found in the bible, and can trace it's origins to more nefarious non-christian sources. over the past 2,000 years many groups have formed (much to the ire of the catholic church) who view jesus as the SON of god as he himself claimed, subserviant to and created by (the bible refers to jesus as the only begotton son, begotton literally meaning born from or having a begining) yahweh (jesus name in hebrew was something onlong the lines of yeshua...bear with me i studied various religions over a period of ten years, but that was over a decade ago). using john 1 is troublesome at best because there is the scholarly debate about the indefinate article "a" found in the original text and the fact that the same hebrew word is used later in john to refer to roman gods, and since they are not the christian "almighty god" it just adds to the confusion if you accept john 1 in that light. there are many other locations in the bible that show a distinction in personality and class between the "almighty" god YHWH and jesus the "mighty" god.

thankfully i am not christian(or religious for that matter), so i can enjoy these topics without getting emotionally involved :D

to break it down
god-title
lord-title
allah-title
elohim-title
YHWH/yahweh/jehovah-the personal name of the judeo/christian(and by extension muslim) god

on an interesting note you see the appearance of the tetragrammaton (in both it's forms YHWH and jehovah) on many ancient buildings all throughout europe. it has been an accepted inscription for the name of (the crhistian)god for many hundreds of years.

:)

Keruvalia -

After rereading my post, I thought I sounded a bit rude. No offense intended, sorry 'bout that.

And you are correct about a lack of a secular view in the field of theology, so a group's view would be dynamic.

Do you reject the documentary hypothesis?

Not out of hand, no.

the problem with that dogma is while it may be a prevailing view for most religions following the counsel of nicea. the teaching is not explicitly found in the bible, and can trace it's origins to more nefarious non-christian sources. over the past 2,000 years many groups have formed (much to the ire of the catholic church) who view jesus as the SON of god as he himself claimed, subserviant to and created by (the bible refers to jesus as the only begotton son, begotton literally meaning born from or having a begining) yahweh (jesus name in hebrew was something onlong the lines of yeshua...bear with me i studied various religions over a period of ten years, but that was over a decade ago). using john 1 is troublesome at best because there is the scholarly debate about the indefinate article "a" found in the original text and the fact that the same hebrew word is used later in john to refer to roman gods, and since they are not the christian "almighty god" it just adds to the confusion if you accept john 1 in that light. there are many other locations in the bible that show a distinction in personality and class between the "almighty" god YHWH and jesus the "mighty" god.



Finally someone who sees reason.
And it took a non-christian to be able to read the bible correctly ::grins::
I also subscribe to the belief that Christ is God's SON. Not God himself.

I believe than man lost the right to commune with the Father back in the Fall of Adam. Adam spoke to the Father (who in early texts is titled Elohim). But everything after that refers to Jehovah. Jehovah is actually Christ's Pre-Earth name. He was the God referred to in the Old Testament (After the 1st couple of chapters of Genesis)

It was not until Christ came and payed for the sins of all mankind that we were able to approach the Father again. Thus we pray to the Father in the name of Christ.

I believe than man lost the right to commune with the Father back in the Fall of Adam. Adam spoke to the Father (who in early texts is titled Elohim). But everything after that refers to Jehovah. Jehovah is actually Christ's Pre-Earth name. He was the God referred to in the Old Testament (After the 1st couple of chapters of Genesis)

It was not until Christ came and payed for the sins of all mankind that we were able to approach the Father again. Thus we pray to the Father in the name of Christ.

The very idea of this makes me chuckle, but if it's what makes you feel better, it's ok. YHWH wasn't mentioned until Mt. Sinai when the Hebrews received Torah and is not mentioned in Torah beyond that. The prophets and the psalms make mention, but the prophets and the psalms are not Torah.

Abraham knew God as El Shaddai or Elah and communicated with Elah directly, just as Adam did, and this was after "the Fall". All of the prophets were in direct communication with Elah as well as some of the kings of old. Not to mention Noah, Lot, and a host of others.

Christ's sacrifice was not required and is not required to approach Elah.

The very idea of this makes me chuckle, but if it's what makes you feel better, it's ok. YHWH wasn't mentioned until Mt. Sinai when the Hebrews received Torah and is not mentioned in Torah beyond that. The prophets and the psalms make mention, but the prophets and the psalms are not Torah.

Abraham knew God as El Shaddai or Elah and communicated with Elah directly, just as Adam did, and this was after "the Fall". All of the prophets were in direct communication with Elah as well as some of the kings of old. Not to mention Noah, Lot, and a host of others.

Christ's sacrifice was not required and is not required to approach Elah.

Theology aside...

In the Tanakh, the most common word (proper name or some other such name, not title) by which the Hebrew God is know is YHWH. It shows up just shy of 7000 times. I'm not sure how often it's used in the Torah alone, or how other names compare, but it's used in Genesis onward. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton)

Theology aside...

In the Tanakh, the most common word (proper name or some other such name, not title) by which the Hebrew God is know is YHWH. It shows up just shy of 7000 times. I'm not sure how often it's used in the Torah alone, or how other names compare, but it's used in Genesis onward. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton)

Like I said, Nevi'im and Kethuvim mention YHWH quite a bit, but those do not equate to Torah. Abraham, himself, the most beloved of Elah never knew of YHWH. Do you suppose Elah forgot to mention it?

No. Read through this thread, especially my first response in this thread. YHWH is sort of a joke. I'm sorry ya'll don't get it.

on an interesting side note the hebrew written law (torah) including the "ten commandments" was part of an extensive set of laws(over 600) that governed nearly every aspect of the hebrew/jewish daily life. many centuries later the mishna or "oral law" was developed and added onto in an effort by rabbi's to as they saw it "protect the torah". one of these particular oral laws was that in the ten commandments you were not to take up the name of god (YHWH/jehovah) in a worthless way. the mishna went farther and said that because you might accidently do so, you should not speak the name at all. up until this time the name of god was used frequently in personal names, gretings, and song (eliJAH, halleluJAH etc..) to name a few. this tradition was later adopted by subsequent generations and christian biblical translators even though it has no basis in the actual torah.
:cool:

Is that a threat? Gonna send goons to my house? Charming. I do so adore internet thugs. You're so cute.

I guess you're not as perceptive as you'd like to think. Although I am cute, I'm not the violent type. What I said was merely intended as good advice. I realise you need an outlet, a way to compensate for your feelings of social and physical inferiority, but slamming Christians isn't the way to do it. You might feel safe saying what you want on the internet but one day your opinion might slip out in public and then... Well, it would be un-Christian of me not to provide you with a prophesy.

God introduced himself to Abraham as "El Shaddai" (Gen 17:1). You're thinking of Moses.

I think it's time to put the peyote down, kimosabe.

I guess you're not as perceptive as you'd like to think. Although I am cute, I'm not the violent type. What I said was merely intended as good advice. I realise you need an outlet, a way to compensate for your feelings of social and physical inferiority, but slamming Christians isn't the way to do it. You might feel safe saying what you want on the internet but one day your opinion might slip out in public and then... Well, it would be un-Christian of me not to provide you with a prophesy.

Hehehehe ... so adorable. My opinion is out in public all the time. I don't hide among the internet. I am a very talented and firey public speaker. Thanks for playing, though. *pinches cheeks*

on an interesting side note the hebrew written law (torah) including the "ten commandments" was part of an extensive set of laws(over 600) that governed nearly every aspect of the hebrew/jewish daily life. many centuries later the mishna or "oral law" was developed and added onto in an effort by rabbi's to as they saw it "protect the torah". one of these particular oral laws was that in the ten commandments you were not to take up the name of god (YHWH/jehovah) in a worthless way. the mishna went farther and said that because you might accidently do so, you should not speak the name at all. up until this time the name of god was used frequently in personal names, gretings, and song (eliJAH, halleluJAH etc..) to name a few. this tradition was later adopted by subsequent generations and christian biblical translators even though it has no basis in the actual torah.
:cool:

Ummm .... the "El" in "Elijah" and "Hallelujah" refers to the Almight, not the "Jah".

613 laws are enumerated in Torah, by the way. The particular 10 are the ones written by the Divine's own hand.

I think it's time to put the peyote down, kimosabe.

No ... seriously ... Genesis 17:1 is where Abraham gets the formal introduction. Read it for yourself. Only Moses was given the YHWH thing.

They're the same deity. The god of Abraham. Abraham called his god "Elaw" or "Allah". "Jehovah" is the incorrectly pronounced descriptor of the Hebrew phrase comprised of the letters Yod, Het, Vav, Het (YHWH) and is not a name of the Almighty.

It's more of a joke. Moses said, "Who should I say sent me, Oh Lord?" and the response was so very Jewish: Tell them I Am sent you. It's sort of like naming someone "No-one".

Who is with you?
No one.

Funny, eh? God's such a prankster.

Christians just don't get the joke, is all. I pity them. They hear no music.

Yes, he was the original Jewish comedian knocking them dead right from his very first appearance in the burning bush. But even the almighty missed some of the fine points of humor and so translations often omit his rather sad pun to Moses "Doth it be hot in here, or doth that just be We."

No. Read through this thread, especially my first response in this thread. YHWH is sort of a joke. I'm sorry ya'll don't get it.

Re Abraham: "I revealed mself to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob as Ēl Shaddāi, but was not known to them by my name Yahweh." Exodus 6.2-3

Play on words, yes; joke, no. The word itself is often understood as a number of things, as simple as "He causes to become", but it's also taken by some to be a combination of "He was", "He is", and "He will be", all of which use "Y", "H", "W" as the consonantal roots of the verbal forms. In the Hebrew tradition, it's not just a play on words but a very accurate name indeed.

Beyond that, "Yah/Jah" is, like "El/Etc", a word with other Semitic cognates, both of which in their respective variations are found as names of Semitic gods or as components thereof.

Anyway, the focus on the tetragrammaton lies in the traditional and historical use of it by the Hebrews (to the extent that it was considered the name, and blasphemous to utter) - "just the facts, m'am". However, not having spoken to any burning bushes recently (there was this one time, but...), I haven't had occasion to ask the name myself, so the last thing I care about is the one true holy ineffable effervescent name, and I certainly don't wish to discuss that aspect. :)

Ummm .... the "El" in "Elijah" and "Hallelujah" refers to the Almight, not the "Jah".

613 laws are enumerated in Torah, by the way. The particular 10 are the ones written by the Divine's own hand.

Hallelujah contains the word "jah", as "hallelu" means "praise" or "bless" - so Hallelujah means "praise to JAH".

Elijah, however, contains both words - "Elijah" means "My God Is YHWH", "God Is Lord", etc. A vast number of Hebrew names, though, do contain "El" in them, the overwhelming majority ending in the name (e.g. "Ishmael" = "God will hear", etc).

Hehehehe ... so adorable. My opinion is out in public all the time. I don't hide among the internet. I am a very talented and firey public speaker. Thanks for playing, though. *pinches cheeks*

If your opinion is out in public why do you tell people you're a Muslim? Is it that you're concerned about giving Jews a bad name?

If your opinion is out in public why do you tell people you're a Muslim? Is it that you're concerned about giving Jews a bad name?

Because I am a Muslim. A Jewish Muslim. Do I really have to explain this again? Criminy. Go look up the definition of what it means to be "Jewish" and then go look up the definition of what it means to be "Muslim".

Here's a clue:

You're "Jewish" if your mother is Jewish or if you convert to Judaism.

You're "Muslim" if you submit your total self to the Almighty.

Jewish + Muslim = Jewish Muslim.

This really isn't that difficult, you know.

Because I am a Muslim. A Jewish Muslim. Do I really have to explain this again? Criminy. Go look up the definition of what it means to be "Jewish" and then go look up the definition of what it means to be "Muslim".

Here's a clue:

You're "Jewish" if your mother is Jewish or if you convert to Judaism.

You're "Muslim" if you submit your total self to the Almighty.

Jewish + Muslim = Jewish Muslim.

This really isn't that difficult, you know.

If this is so, why are there millions of Muslims around the world who want to wipe out the Jews?

If this is so, why are there millions of Muslims around the world who want to wipe out the Jews?

There aren't. There are very few Muslims who feel that way. Hardly millions. I doubt it's even 100,000 out of the 1.4 BILLION Muslims in the world.

There aren't. There are very few Muslims who feel that way. Hardly millions. I doubt it's even 100,000 out of the 1.4 BILLION Muslims in the world.

When was the last time you spoke to a Muslim from Afghanistan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Palestine?

When was the last time you spoke to a Muslim from Afghanistan, Malaysia, Pakistan, Palestine?

Damn near daily.

"Surely the believers and the Jews, Christians and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret" (Qur'an 2:62)

Tolerance. Learn it.

Damn near daily.

"Surely the believers and the Jews, Christians and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret" (Qur'an 2:62)

Tolerance. Learn it.


Should your Muslim friends and myself have tolerance for remarks like these?

"I've fired many types of weapons and have shot my gun in many types of women." - Keruvalia

Should your Muslim friends and myself have tolerance for remarks like these?

"I've fired many types of weapons and have shot my gun in many types of women." - Keruvalia

Would you rather I lie? There is nothing wrong with speaking the truth.

Would you rather I lie? There is nothing wrong with speaking the truth.

Should the readers of this forum then conclude that you are confessing to being a serial killer?

Should the readers of this forum then conclude that you are confessing to being a serial killer?

Apparently you are unaware of the difference between a man's weapon and his gun. This is my rifle, this is my gun ... etc etc.

We, of the military persuasion, do not refer to a weapon, rifle or sidearm, as a "gun". The "gun" is the penis.

Surely you're being deliberately obtuse.

You will be happy to note, though, that the above quote has become sig worthy.

Apparently you are unaware of the difference between a man's weapon and his gun. This is my rifle, this is my gun ... etc etc.

We, of the military persuasion, do not refer to a weapon, rifle or sidearm, as a "gun". The "gun" is the penis.

Surely you're being deliberately obtuse.
hmm. pwned, methinks.

hmm. pwned, methinks.

Aye ... but sig worthy.

Apparently you are unaware of the difference between a man's weapon and his gun. This is my rifle, this is my gun ... etc etc.

We, of the military persuasion, do not refer to a weapon, rifle or sidearm, as a "gun". The "gun" is the penis.

Surely you're being deliberately obtuse.

You will be happy to note, though, that the above quote has become sig worthy.

I was always under the impression that a man's weapon was his mind. But in light of your definition of what a gun really is, don't you think this is a violent and sadistic attitude towards sex?

OK, a fairly open-minded cross-religion discourse has degenerated into a debate on a particular Jewish Muslim's use of his penis.

I think we can wrap it up now, guys....

Yeah, I thought it particularly amusing when he destroyed a whole city with fire and sulphur for homosexuality, and when he drowned the whole world bar eight people and some animals.
not just for homosexuality, mind you, but for a lot of other things as well. and remember that those who wanted to get out, could.

Yeah, I thought it particularly amusing when he destroyed a whole city with fire and sulphur for homosexuality, and when he drowned the whole world bar eight people and some animals.

Actually, he destroyed the city (well, really two cities) because no one would provide Lot with any hospitality...had nothing to do with homosexuality, that's a misnomer.

A question: Do you really believe in Islamic, Jewish, and or Christian fairy tales?
i don't believe in fairy tales. i believe in the truth, it just happens that you don't, maybe you'd do well to show some respect. i don't believe wut the koran says, but that doesn't mean i go around insulting it.

Is that a threat? Gonna send goons to my house? Charming. I do so adore internet thugs. You're so cute.
no, any christian worth his weight in piss would not do that. we will, however, have fun watching you burn in hell. at least, i think that's wut he meant.

Fair enough, I'm just saying you can't paint the Almighty as a kindly old man with a quaint sense of humour. I know admitting any fault in Him isn't really on the cards from a believer's point of view, but He definitely has a dark side, no matter how flippantly you phrase the supposed destruction of most of mankind.
not true. that's like saying a judge who sentences a criminel is evil. u must remember that humanity DESERVED far worse. in God's world, only the perfect deserved to live, and He'd let them live for quite a while doing pretty much everything you can do. normally, He'll let that pass, but none of them cared that it was wrong either, even though they knew. if u take into consideration that His goal is to "save" as many as possible, and then work out how many believers are going to come from a society in which there are none, then it starts to seem like a very reasonible thing to do. remember also that they started out being good people, but then they turned away from Him, making it their choice, not just bad luck.

no, any christian worth his weight in piss would not do that. we will, however, have fun watching you burn in hell. at least, i think that's wut he meant.

Isn't it funny that a Christian would say they will have fun watching me burn in hell, yet as a Muslim - supposedly and reportedly by many Christian resources as the most intolerant and hateful religion ever - I am shown in Qur'an 2:62 that there is no eternal punishment for believers, be they Christian or Jew.

As for all the others, see Qur'an 109. The whole thing is nice (only 6 verses), but it's summed up in 6: To you be your Way, and to me be mine.

Actually, he destroyed the city (well, really two cities) because no one would provide Lot with any hospitality...had nothing to do with homosexuality, that's a misnomer.

Kinda tired of people repeating what they "hear" from others or from their college history classes, without actually reading the text.

Genesis 13:13
Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.


Genesis 19:4-9
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex (relations) with them."

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

"Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

Nuff said.

Kinda tired of people repeating what they "hear" from others or from their college history classes, without actually reading the text.

Genesis 13:13
Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.


Genesis 19:4-9
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex (relations) with them."

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

"Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

Nuff said.


You can't win. You know that, right?

Anyway, the old testament has nothing to do with christianity.

Kinda tired of people repeating what they "hear" from others or from their college history classes, without actually reading the text.

Genesis 13:13
Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.


Genesis 19:4-9
Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex (relations) with them."

Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."

"Get out of our way," they replied. And they said, "This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We'll treat you worse than them." They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door.

Nuff said.


There is now and has always been a Hebrew word for homosexuality. Not once in that story is it used. I hate to tell you this, but the original Torah isn't something you need to "figure out". It's plain as day.

Only when it comes into English do things get ambiguous. I'm guessing by the words in bold up there that you take every one of those things to mean "gay man butt sex".

That's just sad.

There is now and has always been a Hebrew word for homosexuality. Not once in that story is it used. I hate to tell you this, but the original Torah isn't something you need to "figure out". It's plain as day.

Only when it comes into English do things get ambiguous. I'm guessing by the words in bold up there that you take every one of those things to mean "gay man butt sex".

That's just sad.

You raise good points. I also like how allah, or whatever, never declared him/herself to the chinese or indians, or anyone else outside of the middle east.

Now was that planned? Is it that only people who can trace their blood back to the middle east (abrams kids in other words) are in touch with the true meaning of god. Or was it just an oversight?

And I read what you wrote before your edit

You raise good points. I also like how allah, or whatever, never declared him/herself to the chinese or indians, or anyone else outside of the middle east.

Now was that planned? Is it that only people who can trace their blood back to the middle east (abrams kids in other words) are in touch with the true meaning of god. Or was it just an oversight?


I think it was just chance. Ever see a hot girl walking down the street with a butt ugly guy and wonder, "How did that happen?"

It's hard to say why anybody chooses anything and the Almighty is no exception. For instance, the Jews. Nobody knows why the Jews were chosen. They weren't richer, better looking, stronger, or in any way greater than any other nation ... it was just the choice made.

Love is irrational ... even Divine love.

And I read what you wrote before your edit

Yeah ... well ... heh.

He definitely has a dark side, no matter how flippantly you phrase the supposed destruction of most of mankind.

God doesn't have a dark side, my friend.

If their is a colony of ants (aka, Earth) that invades your home, destroying and plaguing it (Sin, Sin, Sin), you would probably go out there and hose them down good (Big floods, my friend. Big floods). Your not drowning them out of hate, your doing it to preserve your home. (aka, the Earth again)

God is perfection, he never does anything wrong.

I've also recently come to believe that the only possible religions are Islamic and Christianity. Islamic, however, is very wrong in many things.

I've also recently come to believe that the only possible religions are Islamic and Christianity.

Ignoring Judaism is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. There wouldn't be a Christianity if there were no Judaism.

Islamic, however, is very wrong in many things.

Name one.

I think it was just chance. Ever see a hot girl walking down the street with a butt ugly guy and wonder, "How did that happen?"

No, not really, I probably did when I was a teenager, but these days I don't really look at people that way.

It's hard to say why anybody chooses anything and the Almighty is no exception. For instance, the Jews. Nobody knows why the Jews were chosen. They weren't richer, better looking, stronger, or in any way greater than any other nation ... it was just the choice made.

I can't argue torah with you, so I will take your word for it. But as I recall, there were no jews before Abram. Didn't the "almighty" create the jewish nation from his sons, rather than pick a nation which already existed.

Also, that raises an interesting point, in that, without european expansion into the americas, you would never have heard the voice of god. Doesn't that make the colonization of the americas divine will?

Now, I know quite a few Chinese people who have very strong opinions on this matter, but they are mostly what you would describe as atheists. I am however close enough to them to have them admit that I am a "sea devil" - which I actually like being ex-navy - so, as you can understand, this is not idle speculation.

Love is irrational ... even Divine love.

While I would never question your scolarship in respect of the hebrew bible, I do wish you would bone up a bit on the established christian perspective. It's not what you think, and they are not out to convert you. In fact, as far as I remember, they don't care, they think you are probably in touch with the numinous, and there is no hell anyway. Your basic problem is with a fringe element which has no doctorinal backing in any case.

Yeah ... well ... heh.


No, they do piss me off too, I admire your self editing, I wouldn't have bothered.

Ignoring Judaism is like throwing the baby out with the bath water. There wouldn't be a Christianity if there were no Judaism.


Ish.

As a matter of phenomenology that is correct. Theologically, that is incorrect. Christian theology is quite self contained outside of the OT, and there is no real reason to study it, other than for context. So, had there been no jews, it doesn't mean that there never would have been Christ.

YAHWEH is the name God himself used when speaking to Abraham(Abram). The Jews removed the vowels when writing it, out of respect for this sacred name, that God Himself used.

And yes, Jehovah is the combination of YHWH and the vowels from Adonai, as mentioned before.

The deity that the Jews followed (YHWH) IS NOT the Sumerian god or anyother god redefined or reinterpreted.

It is the same God who created the world, the same God who made the covenant with Abraham (which incidently happened long before the Israelites were even in Egypt,) and the same God who became flesh in Jesus Christ.


As for Christianity vs Islam:

Supposedly, they both believe in Allah as God the Father. The key difference is how they percieve Jesus. Christians believe that Jesus is God the Son, who IS God, and was with God before creation, who became flesh and died for our sins. (John 1 and John 3)

Muslims believe that Jesus was merely a prophet, who was succeeded by Mohammed. Christians believe that Jesus was (and is) the final Prophet, Priest, and King.
I was talking about historic reality, not beliefs expressed in the Bible.

I was always under the impression that a man's weapon was his mind. But in light of your definition of what a gun really is, don't you think this is a violent and sadistic attitude towards sex?
Isa, why do you have to be so antagonistic?

no, any christian worth his weight in piss would not do that. we will, however, have fun watching you burn in hell. at least, i think that's wut he meant.
I didn't know a devout Christian would be so cruel as to find the suffering of others amusing.

Ish.

As a matter of phenomenology that is correct. Theologically, that is incorrect. Christian theology is quite self contained outside of the OT, and there is no real reason to study it, other than for context. So, had there been no jews, it doesn't mean that there never would have been Christ.

Not exactly ... No Abraham = No David. No David = No Jesus. Jesus had to fulfill OT prophecy in order to be the Messiah. Without OT, no NT.

I can't argue torah with you, so I will take your word for it. But as I recall, there were no jews before Abram. Didn't the "almighty" create the jewish nation from his sons, rather than pick a nation which already existed.

Well ... Allah picked Abraham. By the time the Almighty got around to giving Torah, Abraham was long dead, so Allah chose Abraham's descendants. Specifically, the ones who were under the most problematic life at the time. However, Moses established Judaism, not Abraham. Abraham was not a Christian or a Jew.


Also, that raises an interesting point, in that, without european expansion into the americas, you would never have heard the voice of god. Doesn't that make the colonization of the americas divine will?


Nah ... there were Muslims in my neck of the woods long before there were Christians. The Eruopean expansion merely made all the papers. People were travelling around the oceans long before Columbus, et al.

Now, I know quite a few Chinese people who have very strong opinions on this matter, but they are mostly what you would describe as atheists. I am however close enough to them to have them admit that I am a "sea devil" - which I actually like being ex-navy - so, as you can understand, this is not idle speculation.

Abraham had quite a few children, not just the two. The Bible does seem to focus on just the one, but if we're to take this from a purely Biblical standpoint, the Chinese and all manner of eastern peoples could have descended from any other of Abraham's sons. Abraham was given to be the father of many nations, not just one (Genesis 17:4).

While I would never question your scolarship in respect of the hebrew bible, I do wish you would bone up a bit on the established christian perspective. It's not what you think, and they are not out to convert you. In fact, as far as I remember, they don't care, they think you are probably in touch with the numinous, and there is no hell anyway. Your basic problem is with a fringe element which has no doctorinal backing in any case.


The established Christian perspective of Jesus being the one spoken of in Torah denegrates my entire people (the Jews). It makes us liars and idolaters and makes us "slaves to the law" and deliberately ignorant. It takes our patriarchs and has them serving Christ, not God, and to us that is blasphemy of the highest order. I wish, as you say, that Christianity were self-contained. I wish it had no reliance on our prophecy or our messiah whatsoever. Unfortunately, it does, and as long as it does, I will not let our truth be spit upon.

No, they do piss me off too, I admire your self editing, I wouldn't have bothered.

Well ... it needed to be edited. I didn't want to attack the poster, just the post.

i don't believe in fairy tales. i believe in the truth, it just happens that you don't, maybe you'd do well to show some respect. i don't believe wut the koran says, but that doesn't mean i go around insulting it.

Respect must be earned. I just don't give it out to anyone I see. I wasn't insulting it, just comparing it's truthfulness to my Hardy Boys books. Seriously, some dude in the desert writes a book and it's the word of "Allah". Sorry but it sounds to me like the Hash was quite strong back then.

Well ... Allah picked Abraham. By the time the Almighty got around to giving Torah, Abraham was long dead, so Allah chose Abraham's descendants. Specifically, the ones who were under the most problematic life at the time. However, Moses established Judaism, not Abraham. Abraham was not a Christian or a Jew.



Nah ... there were Muslims in my neck of the woods long before there were Christians. The Eruopean expansion merely made all the papers. People were travelling around the oceans long before Columbus, et al.



Abraham had quite a few children, not just the two. The Bible does seem to focus on just the one, but if we're to take this from a purely Biblical standpoint, the Chinese and all manner of eastern peoples could have descended from any other of Abraham's sons. Abraham was given to be the father of many nations, not just one (Genesis 17:4).



The established Christian perspective of Jesus being the one spoken of in Torah denegrates my entire people (the Jews). It makes us liars and idolaters and makes us "slaves to the law" and deliberately ignorant. It takes our patriarchs and has them serving Christ, not God, and to us that is blasphemy of the highest order. I wish, as you say, that Christianity were self-contained. I wish it had no reliance on our prophecy or our messiah whatsoever. Unfortunately, it does, and as long as it does, I will not let our truth be spit upon.



Well ... it needed to be edited. I didn't want to attack the poster, just the post.


Well, being raised, C of E, I can assure you, that there are at least 100,000,000 Christians who view the whole thing as self-contained. I beleive the RC has come around to that way of thinking too.

For Christians, scripture is not written, it is in the See. Kind of a living religion, if you will. Only dogma is innerant, and that is basically wrapped up in the Nicene Creed. And it doesn't mention anything about jews, or patriarchs. The OT, is just there for colour, if you will. It's really not that important.

I just get the feeling that you judge the whole billion plus Christains that are quite happy to let you go on your way, on the actions of a few who the rest would disavow. That's all. And hey, the last Pope (not mine) said you were going to heaven, so it's all good.

Respect must be earned. I just don't give it out to anyone I see. I wasn't insulting it, just comparing it's truthfulness to my Hardy Boys books. Seriously, some dude in the desert writes a book and it's the word of "Allah". Sorry but it sounds to me like the Hash was quite strong back then.
He didn't do any writing.

You can't win. You know that, right?

Anyway, the old testament has nothing to do with christianity.

The OT has EVERYTHING to do with christianity. For example, all of the prophesies of the coming messiah are found in the OT. Another example, practical living as set forth in Proverbs is part of christianity. I could give more examples if you want.

Plus, all the early christians were Jews who were raised with the Torah. Jesus didn't come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, so that we don't have to.

There is now and has always been a Hebrew word for homosexuality. Not once in that story is it used. I hate to tell you this, but the original Torah isn't something you need to "figure out". It's plain as day.

Only when it comes into English do things get ambiguous. I'm guessing by the words in bold up there that you take every one of those things to mean "gay man butt sex".

That's just sad.

You're right, you don't need to "figure it out." The context clearly indentifies it as homosexuality. Why would Lot make a point of refusing, and offering instead to send out his 2 virgin daughters? The arguement for an improper translation of a single word fails to hold up when the context of the passage clearly supports the opposite.

And if, as "scholars" say, that the word for "relations" merely meant to "have a talk," then why did Lot so vehemently refuse? Why did the city try to break down teh door? And why did the visitors (angels) blind the townspeople?

Because they just wanted to talk? I think not.

It's hard to say why anybody chooses anything and the Almighty is no exception. For instance, the Jews. Nobody knows why the Jews were chosen. They weren't richer, better looking, stronger, or in any way greater than any other nation ... it was just the choice made.

Love is irrational ... even Divine love.





Deuteronomy 7:7-8
The LORD did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your forefathers that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

In the OT we see the main reason why God chose Israel to be His people.
-- To keep the oath He swore with Abraham and his descendants.

But God's power was displayed through the Israelites, who were fewest in number, yet conquered nations mighter than they.

So GOd's love isn't irrational, He always has a reason.

So GOd's love isn't irrational, He always has a reason.

Not good enough. Abraham had many sons and many decendants. Abraham was father to many nations, not just that one.

Why was that one chosen and not another? Can't use the Abrahamic line excuse because then God could have just as easily chosen the decendants of, say, Esau instead of the line of Jacob.

All love is irrational. It's the nature of love.

Because they just wanted to talk? I think not.

Meh ... no.

However "wicked" and "sinned greatly" and "surrounded" and the other things you put in bold do not mean "butt sex". I mean ... come on. Read it, but don't read *into* it.

Hey Tetrannia, Alexandria Quatriem, Riverlund, I'm no biblical scholar, but I still think God can't be seen as an entirely pleasant character. I can't be bothered searching through this thread all the time, and this is all a bit off topic anyway.

Feel free to telegram me though if you want a discussion.

Meh ... no.

However "wicked" and "sinned greatly" and "surrounded" and the other things you put in bold do not mean "butt sex". I mean ... come on. Read it, but don't read *into* it.

Don't know how much more clear the text can be:

Lot's reply to the townspeople:

"No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them"

'Butt-sex' might not be implied, but some sort of sexual relations between men was intended. If you honestly can't see this from the text, then I feel sorry for you.

And BTW, I bolded certain words for YOUR benefit, because you seem to keep glossing over them. I mean...come on. :D

To the Christians God is known as Jehovah to the Jews he is known as Yahweh to the muslims he is none as Allah. One God, many names so lets just call him, Jehahlla: Jehhova, Yahweh, and Allah. Personally I think that Gods name is Yahweh even though I'm a Christian the Jews knew the name of God and in english translation Yahweh = Jehova. But as we all know, Muhammad(p.b.u.h.) came up with Allah from his native tribe and begun preaching to theres so Islam was kinda a cult. So God's name is most likely, Yahweh. With that said we can all die happy.

There aren't. There are very few Muslims who feel that way. Hardly millions. I doubt it's even 100,000 out of the 1.4 BILLION Muslims in the world.

coughs and you get the first figure from where...

The Koran is such a dull book. Like the religon and the people who follow it. Dull as ditchwater, and as boring as hell.

The YHWH is a play on several constructs of the Hebrew form of "to be". Technically, it would be translated "I am being which I will be and was as I have been". Most people simply say "I am", though. There are two proper ways of pronouncing it and "Jehovah" isn't close to either.


I've perused most of this thread and I hope I'm not double-posting, so here goes.

I've seen several posts about the history of "Jehovah," but the word we know as "jehovah" comes from the Latin writing of "jehovah" spelled "iehovah" pronounced "ye-ho-wah" which would have been very close to YHWH. As it is a direct translating from the old Semitic toungue to Latin. It is the translation from the Latin to English where we get the word Jehovah.



Note for our Latin illiterate:
There was no "J" in most Latin, either charachter or sound. The "J" developed in "vulgar" Latin, which was spoken by commoners late in the Roman Empire's collapse.

The character "V" makes the soune we recognize from the "W," there was no "v" sound in the language.

Fair enough, I'm just saying you can't paint the Almighty as a kindly old man with a quaint sense of humour. I know admitting any fault in Him isn't really on the cards from a believer's point of view, but He definitely has a dark side, no matter how flippantly you phrase the supposed destruction of most of mankind.

God is incharge of everything that happens. We have free agency, He allows us to have it. But basically every life and every death comes from God in his ultimate wisdom, so if you choose to see the destruction of mankind as God having dark side, that's fine, but that's only one perspective. Everyone dies.

Meh ... no.

However "wicked" and "sinned greatly" and "surrounded" and the other things you put in bold do not mean "butt sex". I mean ... come on. Read it, but don't read *into* it.

Hehehe.

No kidding.

The Koran is such a dull book. Like the religon and the people who follow it. Dull as ditchwater, and as boring as hell.
Mutated Sea Bass, this makes TWO out of TWO topics that I've read this morning that involved you flamebaiting and trolling. We've had enough of this. KNOCK IT OFF.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=416023)

ok, here goes -

Jehovah is the Latinised form of YAHWEH - as the Roman's didn't have 'w' it became IEHOVAH, and the I becomes J in our language.

Allah is the arabic word for 'god' - in Christian Bibles written in Arabic, the same word is used for God.

So in essence, they Jews/Christians believe in the same God as Muslims but believe DIFFERENT THINGS ABOUT HIM. that's about it.

Also, to be honest one person is never going to convince another person by shouting at them - that's what most people on this board seem to be doing :( :confused:

I've also recently come to believe that the only possible religions are Islamic and Christianity. Islamic, however, is very wrong in many things.

dude! Ain't no such thing as a "wrong" religion. I refer you to the other thread I've been goin' through today: jolt.co.uk public forums - Dangers of Wicca
http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=417405&page=15&pp=15
My little exploation thing is on the very bottom of page 14, but someone quoted and replyed to it on page 15

no, any christian worth his weight in piss would not do that. we will, however, have fun watching you burn in hell.

How is the second one any more Christain than the first? you're giving us a bad name, man