NationStates Jolt Archive

I was going to Church in the city to day (Wilmington, DE) and we noticed a cop outside. this was a little strange because its not in a particularly bad part of town nor does it really house anything worth stealing. over the months a few beggers had started to ask for money outside the Church on sundays, apparently the success of one beggar a while back netted him a few dollars and attracted more and more of them. and then last week when one of them was turned down he told the Church goers that he had a gun and more or less robbed them. hence the cop.

when I was in san francisco (far more beggars than New York, Washington, Philadelphia or any other big city I've been to) a Church newspaper begger the parishioners not to give money to the beggars outside because more often than not the money went to drugs and booze. they asked that to be truly compassionate to give the money to Church charities who could make sure the money went for food, clothes and shelter.

bearing those examples in mind are we doing a vast disservice when we give money to beggars?

when I was in san francisco (far more beggars than New York, Washington, Philadelphia or any other big city I've been to) a Church newspaper begger the parishioners not to give money to the beggars outside because more often than not the money went to drugs and booze. they asked that to be truly compassionate to give the money to Church charities who could make sure the money went for food, clothes and shelter.


I like this story. It's a church saying, "Don't give your money to beggars, but please, please, please, please, please, please, we beseech and implore you to give it to us."

Cute.

As for your question, I dunno. I give money to beggars. I don't care what they do with it. It's not my place to tell them how to live their lives.

Yep.I give money to people who hold those signs 'will work for food", beggars, people who need something....I give it. I've been mocked and aksed 'well what if they just go out and buy booze with it?" Thats not my problem. Maybe they did. But maybe they went and got a sandwich or something cause they havent eaten in 3 days.

I like this story. It's a church saying, "Don't give your money to beggars, but please, please, please, please, please, please, we beseech and implore you to give it to us."

they've only been caring for the poor for a couple millenia, they're probobly pretty good at it by now

I don't give money individually because there are too many homeless and I have far too little income. I give money to charities that give to homeless and such, though.

And if there is an offer going on cheap sausage rolls (e.g. 6 for £1) I'll buy six, eat one and give away the rest.

I like this story. It's a church saying, "Don't give your money to beggars, but please, please, please, please, please, please, we beseech and implore you to give it to us."

Cute.

As for your question, I dunno. I give money to beggars. I don't care what they do with it. It's not my place to tell them how to live their lives.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Wtf do I care if some dude goes and buys a 40 oz. with the money I gave him, I'm probably off to go do the same damn thing myself!

I couldn't have said it better myself. Wtf do I care if some dude goes and buys a 40 oz. with the money I gave him, I'm probably off to go do the same damn thing myself!

maybe theres a reason he is on the streets, and perhaps thats the alcoholism your money if paying for

they've only been caring for the poor for a couple millenia, they're probobly pretty good at it by now
Except for that bit in the middle where the Church took money for sin 'removal' services and used it to finance wealthy lifestyles. But that bit doesn't get mentioned much...

they've only been caring for the poor for a couple millenia, they're probobly pretty good at it by now

Yes, and they've done quite a good job of keeping them in their place too -

The rich man in his mansion,
The poor man at his gate.
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.

it depends on why you would give it.

if you want to help it really is better given to the church or other homeless charities. they have some excellent programs for those who want to get off the streets. there are those beggars who make enough money begging to never need do anything to improve their lot.

i give a little bit now and then with no strings attached to people who seem to not be having much luck in life. it doesnt matter to me what they do with it and i dont delude myself that my dollar is going to change their lives.

Me and Gum Tree gave 20 bucks away last week. Kinda sucked because we also offered her food and a place to stay for a little while. Anyhow, I try to give, but I live where there are a ton of homeless people. It kind of sucks, so you have to give to the exceptional cases. :(

heres the thing... most homeless people will probably buy food or something.. and if they buy booze or whatever small amt of drugs they can get for $5, its up to them...

I just feel uncomfortable takiing out my wallet and handing them money.. they can easily snatch it and run.

also.. homeless dont need our pity or money (atleast in the US they dont). There are so many government aid programs, soup kitchens, and shelters out there.. there are so many places and ways to get money, food, shelter, and a job in this country. The truth is, if they're begging, theyre not trying hard enough. I dont mean to sound like a heartless bastard, but its the truth.. there are so many ways to get an opportunity in this country, and if theyre too lazy or self-important to try, then they are undeserving of my money.
Like Andrew Carnegie, i beleive money should instead go to charities, public libraries, public works and services, and education...

Better to teach a man to fish, than give the man a fish...

Back in the late 90's, I used to work in DC. Always saw the same panhanders in the Metro, especially in L'Efant Plaza.

One day, I read in the Washington Post that there are panhandlers that make over $50,000 a year!

Needless to say, I've never given to a panhandler since then.

Better to teach a man to fish, than give the man a fish...

The real question here is whether you have ever metaphorically taught a man to fish or given him a metaphorical fish.

had a begger give me a sob story about need her Diabeties medication and it was on the other side of the Island. she needed bus fare so I gave her a couple of Dollars.

She tried again a couple months later and I again gave her a couple of bucks (I remembered her so I was giving her money out of kindness.)

Then after I started working at the Hospital here, I again ran into the same person. this time, however, my response was, "sit right here, I'll call an Ambulance to pick you up so that you can get your medication." she started yammering on how that wasn't necessary and I replied "It's no problem, Diabeties is serious and I'll rather you get your medication asap, now sit down while I call the ER..." never saw anyone run so quickly... :D

It's better to give a man a fish than to give him money for crack. I never give to beggars and I only donate money to soup kitchens and old clothes to the salvation army.

It's better to give a man a fish than to give him money for crack.

Are you implying that all beggars are on crack?

I give them money when they either have funny signs or play an instrument.

I once gave a girl $1 because she was playing a violin on a street corner with a sign in her case that read "Please help a University of Toronto student with tuition" I saw some kids sitting in a cardbord box that read "SS Spare Change" and gave them money. My sister gave money (I didn't have any change yet) to some guys who had a sign that read "We're ugly and nobody wants us" and once she gave some to some people who were being brutally honest and had a sign that said "Money for pot"

Are you implying that all beggars are on crack?
i'm implying that the chances for my money to be spent on crack goes down to 0% when i give to a food bank, but there is a chance that i help a bum buy drugs or alcohol if i just give it to him on the side of the street.

I give them money when they either have funny signs or play an instrument.

So you believe the unmusically talented or those without a sense of humour should be left to starve?

i'm implying that the chances for my money to be spent on crack goes down to 0% when i give to a food bank, but there is a chance that i help a bum buy drugs or alcohol if i just give it to him on the side of the street.

Why is it any worse for a beggar to buy drugs or alcohol than anyone else?

I give them money when they either have funny signs or play an instrument.

I once gave a girl $1 because she was playing a violin on a street corner with a sign in her case that read "Please help a University of Toronto student with tuition" I saw some kids sitting in a cardbord box that read "SS Spare Change" and gave them money. My sister gave money (I didn't have any change yet) to some guys who had a sign that read "We're ugly and nobody wants us" and once she gave some to some people who were being brutally honest and had a sign that said "Money for pot"

Street musicians are different. They're not begging per se; they're playing, hoping they're not offending people, and trying to make enough for lunch. I often give to them. (At least they're DOING something, even if it's only to entertain me for a minute or three.)

So you believe the unmusically talented or those without a sense of humour should be left to starve?

Darwinism at work. :D

If your conscience says give...... give. It's all about your conscience .. not society.

Why is it any worse for a beggar to buy drugs or alcohol than anyone else?
Wherever did i say it was worse for a beggar to do these things than anyone else? I don't want anyone to spend money on drugs, especially if they live on the street.

Darwinism at work. :D

Only if musicality or a GSOH are genetically determined.

So you believe the unmusically talented or those without a sense of humour should be left to starve?
No.
I'm pretty broke most of the time myself, I only have so much spare change and there are too many homeless in Toronto for me to give my money to all of them.

Wherever did i say it was worse for a beggar to do these things than anyone else? I don't want anyone to spend money on drugs, especially if they live on the street.

So would you approve of your boss making sure that you didn't spend any of your money on drugs by instead of paying you by cash or cheque, giving your earnings to a hostel where you could live and eat?

they've only been caring for the poor for a couple millenia, they're probobly pretty good at it by now

at least at offering the "pie in the sky" solution to poverty

I don't give money to beggars because they will probably just spend it on heroin. I give to homeless charities so I know it will be spent on food and shelter.

So would you approve of your boss making sure that you didn't spend any of your money on drugs by instead of paying you by cash or cheque, giving your earnings to a hostel where you could live and eat?
You have the right to spend money on drugs (or, you should have) because you earned it, you didn't beg for it.

at least at offering the "pie in the sky" solution to poverty
Not at all. Homeless shelters are usually better at caring for beggars than the beggars are themselves.

No. Anyone who cannot work enough to provide for themselves should be left to starve. Even if its not their fault, its better in the long run to create the work ethic than to give to the small few who actually need it, and will eventually get back on their feet.

So would you approve of your boss making sure that you didn't spend any of your money on drugs by instead of paying you by cash or cheque, giving your earnings to a hostel where you could live and eat?
I sort of agree with principles of the statist socialism you're talking about. Being raised in China where a lot of workers are nowadays being screwed over by merciless employers, the old days of the "iron rice bowl," guaranteed pensions, and social security seem appealing even though wages were low to nonexistent. So I wouldn't mind living in a country where the economy is planned and my employer arranges a decent, steady standard of living for his employees, without actually paying them liquid wages. Of course I haven't figured out the mechanics of a good socialist system, and Chinese socialism obviously didn't work out in the end.

No. Anyone who cannot work enough to provide for themselves should be left to starve. Even if its not their fault, its better in the long run to create the work ethic than to give to the small few who actually need it, and will eventually get back on their feet.

Should people who live off inheritances that they themselves have not earned be stripped of their wealth and also left to starve?

...I sort of agree with principles of the statist socialism you're talking about.

?

You have the right to spend money on drugs (or, you should have) because you earned it, you didn't beg for it.
They earned it too. They froze their asses off/baked in the sun/got soaked and earned your sympathy.

they've only been caring for the poor for a couple millenia, they're probobly pretty good at it by now

You've missed the point. The church is begging people to give their money to the church, as opposed to beggars.

In short: Don't give it to those beggars, give it to these beggars.

?
?

maybe theres a reason he is on the streets, and perhaps thats the alcoholism your money if paying for

Doesn't matter ... you hand a person $2 it doesn't mean you own them.

You've missed the point. The church is begging people to give their money to the church, as opposed to beggars.

In short: Don't give it to those beggars, give it to these beggars.

maybe I should have specified, the Church was asking for donations to their charities, not to the Church itself - all the money you would have given them would go to the baggars

Should people who live off inheritances that they themselves have not earned be stripped of their wealth and also left to starve?

Perhaps I should rephrase. Anyone who cannot obtain enough money to live, should be let starve off. People who live off inheritance is different, because they obtain money from family connections.

You've missed the point. The church is begging people to give their money to the church, as opposed to beggars.

In short: Don't give it to those beggars, give it to these beggars.
Difference: the church is more likely to spend it on food and shelter than the individual beggars are.

Are you being vindictive because it's a church? Replace "church" with "mosque". Maybe that will sound better to you.

Perhaps I should rephrase. Anyone who cannot obtain enough money to live, should be let starve off. People who live off inheritance is different, because they obtain money from family connections.
That's not even a matter of work ethic. It's purely luck to be born into a rich family so you never have to work. It's wrong to let people starve just because they were born poor and can't get money. What about disabled people who can't work?

Oh come on! Most of these people are going to end up in a blood farming facility run by Vampires anyway! Why the hell would they need our money?

Difference: the church is more likely to spend it on food and shelter than the individual beggars are.

Not really. People have a need to survive. The church, however, will more often than not only feed those who convert.

Are you being vindictive because it's a church? Replace "church" with "mosque". Maybe that will sound better to you.

Who's being vindictive? It was clearly a church begging for money for its charities. Begging is begging ... I don't care who it comes from. Also, can't replace it with mosque or synagogue as neither mosques nor synagogues pass collection plates or beg for loose change.

Perhaps I should rephrase. Anyone who cannot obtain enough money to live, should be let starve off.

well, in a technical sense these people are obtaining enough money to live - they're just not working for it, living a very dangerous and potetentially deadly lifestyle, providing a market for drugs and annoying the hell out of most people

Only if musicality or a GSOH are genetically determined.

Actually, it's lack of musicality & GSOH that makes your genetics not pass on in this case... ;)

Perhaps I should rephrase. Anyone who cannot obtain enough money to live, should be let starve off. People who live off inheritance is different, because they obtain money from family connections.

Why are the people living off inheritances different? They are not working for their keep either.

Not really. People have a need to survive. The church, however, will more often than not only feed those who convert.

WHAT THE FUCK, yeah - screw acronims, WHAT THE FUCK its the Catholic Church they might argue about it but they're sure as hell not going to let people starve over that

Who's being vindictive? It was clearly a church begging for money for its charities. Begging is begging ... I don't care who it comes from. Also, can't replace it with mosque or synagogue as neither mosques nor synagogues pass collection plates or beg for loose change.

or is it? the Church provides spiritual/moral guidence and buckets of other things, the hobo just sits on the sidewalk with a sign

It is worth saying something about the social position of beggars, for
when one has consorted with them, and found that they are ordinary human
beings, one cannot help being struck by the curious attitude that society
takes towards them. People seem to feel that there is some essential
difference between beggars and ordinary 'working' men. They are a race
apart--outcasts, like criminals and prostitutes. Working men 'work',
beggars do not 'work'; they are parasites, worthless in their very nature.
It is taken for granted that a beggar does not 'earn' his living, as a
bricklayer or a literary critic 'earns' his. He is a mere social
excrescence, tolerated because we live in a humane age, but essentially
despicable.

Yet if one looks closely one sees that there is no ESSENTIAL
difference between a beggar's livelihood and that of numberless respectable
people. Beggars do not work, it is said; but, then, what is WORK? A navvy
works by swinging a pick. An accountant works by adding up figures. A
beggar works by standing out of doors in all weathers and getting varicose
veins, chronic bronchitis, etc. It is a trade like any other; quite
useless, of course--but, then, many reputable trades are quite useless.
And as a social type a beggar compares well with scores of others. He is
honest compared with the sellers of most patent medicines, high-minded
compared with a Sunday newspaper proprietor, amiable compared with a
hire-purchase tout--in short, a parasite, but a fairly harmless parasite.
He seldom extracts more than a bare living from the community, and, what
should justify him according to our ethical ideas, he pays for it over and
over in suffering. I do not think there is anything about a beggar that
sets him in a different class from other people, or gives most modern men
the right to despise him.

Then the question arises, Why are beggars despised?--for they are
despised, universally. I believe it is for the simple reason that they fail
to earn a decent living. In practice nobody cares whether work is useful or
useless, productive or parasitic; the sole thing demanded is that it shall
be profitable. In all the modem talk about energy, efficiency, social
service and the rest of it, what meaning is there except 'Get money, get it
legally, and get a lot of it'? Money has become the grand test of virtue.
By this test beggars fail, and for this they are despised. If one could
earn even ten pounds a week at begging, it would become a respectable
profession immediately. A beggar, looked at realistically, is simply a
businessman, getting his living, like other businessmen, in the way that
comes to hand. He has not, more than most modem people, sold his honour;
he has merely made the mistake of choosing a trade at which it is impossible
to grow rich.

- George Orwell "Down and Out in Paris and London"

was that communist orwell, or post-communist orwell?

I like this story. It's a church saying, "Don't give your money to beggars, but please, please, please, please, please, please, we beseech and implore you to give it to us."

Cute.

As for your question, I dunno. I give money to beggars. I don't care what they do with it. It's not my place to tell them how to live their lives.
I agree totally. Whatever it is, if it gives them some relief from the endless shit tat is living on the street, who cares what they do with it?

I'm sick of people who have food, clothes and a roof over their heads doing things like yelling or spitting at homeless people. Even worse are the lowlifes who think it's "fun" to beat them up. Get a life.

WHAT THE FUCK, yeah - screw acronims, WHAT THE FUCK its the Catholic Church they might argue about it but they're sure as hell not going to let people starve over that

Shrug ... reality bites, don't it? For all the Catholic Church's posturing, a person dies every 5 seconds of starvation while the Pope sits on a golden throne.

or is it? the Church provides spiritual/moral guidence and buckets of other things, the hobo just sits on the sidewalk with a sign

Mosques and Synagogues provide the same stuff for free and without pressure to donate. What if the hobo is a preacher? Maybe you should come off the high horse and actually talk to these people sometime.

My take on it is this, is this a blind feeble begger? Or a 19 year old in good health? I dont mind helping the truely unfortunate, but the lazy? Screw im! in fact we could use them for medical testing and get some use out of them

Shrug ... reality bites, don't it?



Mosques and Synagogues provide the same stuff for free and without pressure to donate. What if the hobo is a preacher? Maybe you should come off the high horse and actually talk to these people sometime.
And you could probably learn a lot more about how our society functions by chatting to a homeless person.

About the "spending it on drugs" thing.

It's thier money once you give it to them, but your money until you choose to.

If you give them your money and they buy drugs, there is nothing legally or morally wrong about it. It's stupid, but that's about it.

If I choose not to give them my money because I don't want it wasted on drugs, there is nothing legally or morally wrong about that either.

Basically, if you don't really care if it's used on drugs, give it to beggars and if you do really care give it to a charity. Who cares what other posters here do?

It's your money.

was that communist orwell, or post-communist orwell?

"Down and Out in Paris and London" is post communist, but autobiographical so it has commmunist parts.

The point that is mildly skimmed over by Orwell is that begging does nothing for the society as a whole, whereas the results of the labour of the ordinary 'working' man do flow into society eventually, even under extreme capitalism.

Begging in Latin America is endemic. We have two or three people a day ringing the doorbell to ask for money, food, clothes etc. It is impossible to give anything to any of them, as if you do, the next day you have twenty on your doorstep.

The biggest problem with begging here, though, is children being used by unscrupulous adults. At almost every set of traffic lights in major urban centres you will find children begging. I sometimes give food, but never money. Any money just foes into the pockets of the adults, and when, as I saw once on the way to a lecture at 6:30 a.m, you see the BMW 7 series pull up and unload five kids in rags to beg, then you suspect that something is not quite genuine.

I've heard that beggars often actually make better money than minimum wage. I don't have any sources to back that up, but I believe it. Now, I personally usually give to beggars, but I'm not sure that's a good thing.

If someone can make a living doing begging, he has little pressing need to make the effort to get a more respectable and secure job. If he went out and got a minimum wage job he might even make less money than he did begging. But I don't think that a beggars lifestyle is a good one. Maybe it's just me, but i don't imagine I'd like it much, and I've met very few beggars who seemed all that happy.

So by giving money to a beggar you're making it easier for him to continue living in a way that probably isn't very good for him.

I think giving money to homeless shelters, etc. is a good thing on the other hand, but it's hard to say exactly why I feel that way - I'll need to think about it more.

My take on it is this, is this a blind feeble begger? Or a 19 year old in good health? I dont mind helping the truely unfortunate, but the lazy? Screw im! in fact we could use them for medical testing and get some use out of them
oh i live in small town new mexico. the only beggars we get, and the only kind i would consider giving to, are those who are unfit for work for whatever reason.

why anyone gives to a young fit beggar i cant imagine. (i dont consider street musicians to be beggars).

the reason we despise beggars, mr orwell, is because we are being tricked into give OUR hard earned money to those who cant be bothered to find real employment. money that we need and only give out of sympathy that is unfounded.

Funny how religious buildings seem to get better curtains, furniture, stain lass widnows etc when you donate charity to them when they claim to give it to the homeless...

You people are truely disgraceful! You should never give to beggars, it only encourages them! Then everytime you want to walk down the street you are confronted by their nuisance. When I go shopping I don't want to see filthy beggars everywhere, stinking, harrassing me for money, creating noise pollution with their 'musical' 'talents.'

Bring back the workhouse I say!

was that communist orwell, or post-communist orwell?

it's from before the spanish civil war, which was the event that solidified his political position. so proto-communist, i suppose. he didn't have a post-communist period. he just hated stalinists.

Not really. People have a need to survive. The church, however, will more often than not only feed those who convert.
More often than not? I think that's exceedingly rare. Only the most fundamentalist of churches demand that its charity recipients convert to their faith. On of the doctrines of Christianity says to reach out and help everybody.

Do you honestly think that homeless people spend money better then charities and shelters? Most of the food that homeless people get themselves is in the form of random leftovers from sympathisers, or McDonalds. Yeah, that's really good. :rolleyes:

Who's being vindictive? It was clearly a church begging for money for its charities. Begging is begging ... I don't care who it comes from. Also, can't replace it with mosque or synagogue as neither mosques nor synagogues pass collection plates or beg for loose change.
So how do Muslims and Jews get money to fund their charities?

I do think it matters who is doing the begging. It's all about where the money is going to, and I trust the charity to spend it better than the homeless guy.

the reason we despise beggars, mr orwell, is because we are being tricked into give OUR hard earned money to those who cant be bothered to find real employment.

i feel the same way every time i purchase something for a corporation. why don't those shareholders get real jobs, that's what i'd like to know. lazy good for nothings.

I agree totally. Whatever it is, if it gives them some relief from the endless shit tat is living on the street, who cares what they do with it?

or are you perpetuating the addiction that forces them to live the way they do?

Hellooooo? Did anyone read my post?

Do whatever you want with your money. It's yours.

We don't have to bicker about whether we give to shelters, beggars or no-one at all because it's our own money and we don't have to justify how we spend it to people on an internet forum!!

Do you honestly think that homeless people spend money better then charities and shelters? Most of the food that homeless people get themselves is in the form of random leftovers from sympathisers, or McDonalds. Yeah, that's really good. :rolleyes:

You've just provided a great example of "convert to my way or you get nothing".

What gives you the right to tell other people how to live, what to eat, and how to take care of themselves? Like I said before: Just because you give someone $2 doesn't mean you own them.

So how do Muslims and Jews get money to fund their charities?

People choose to donate. You'll find, however, that the vast majority of mosques and synagogues are very poor. It has something to do with the whole not amassing material possessions and worldly goods thing. I think Jesus may have mentioned it somewhere as well, but between the Pope's golden throne and the massive tracts of land owned by the Baptists and Methodists, the message got lost on Christians.

I do think it matters who is doing the begging. It's all about where the money is going to, and I trust the charity to spend it better than the homeless guy.

So you'd rather buy a preacher a new Mercedes instead of a homeless guy a sandwich? How very Christian of you.

Shrug ... reality bites, don't it?

yeah, maybe you could orient yourself with it for just a tad - your basless acuisation is ridiculous to say nothing of bigoted

For all the Catholic Church's posturing, a person dies every 5 seconds of starvation while the Pope sits on a golden throne.

and france has the louve, the UK has the british museum thats a work of art not an equity downpayment

Mosques and Synagogues provide the same stuff for free and without pressure to donate.

or not, how do you think they get money?

Hellooooo? Did anyone read my post?

Do whatever you want with your money. It's yours.

We don't have to bicker about whether we give to shelters, beggars or no-one at all because it's our own money and we don't have to justify how we spend it to people on an internet forum!!

No we don't have to, however it is reasonable to discuss the issue if we wish to. If you don't wish to, it is your option. There is no need to criticise others for discussing something they are interested in. Go post in another thread if this one does not interest you.

People choose to donate. You'll find, however, that the vast majority of mosques and synagogues are very poor. It has something to do with the whole not amassing material possessions and worldly goods thing. I think Jesus may have mentioned it somewhere as well, but between the Pope's golden throne and the massive tracts of land owned by the Baptists and Methodists, the message got lost on Christians.

clearly you've never seen mecca, or Catholic Relief Services for that matter

So you'd rather buy a preacher a new Mercedes instead of a homeless guy a sandwich? How very Christian of you.

is that really how you think the Church opperates? geeze son, wanna spend a little more time outside?

and france has the louve, the UK has the british museum thats a work of art not an equity downpayment


Ooooh yeah ... those really benefit the hungry.


is that really how you think the Church opperates? geeze son, wanna spend a little more time outside?

That's how I know the vast majority of Christian churches operate. Don't call me son ... I'm 32 and the parent of 4.

Why are the people living off inheritances different? They are not working for their keep either.

Because Im not advocating taking money away from people. Im advocating not giving money to people. If someone is lucky enough to had rich parents, good for them. If they dont work, eventually their spawn will have to.

Poor people are a drain on the economy however, and unless they can obtain their own money, they should be let starve.

The beggar, the mugger, and the street preacher are all one and the same. Everyone of them has decided that you owe them a living, simply by the merit that they are there. They offer you nothing of value (neither goods nor services) in exchange for handing them cash.
Better that they should go into prostitution or drug running, at least then they can offer something in exchange for the money that they are incapable of earning.
If, for some reason, that suggestion makes you angry, then congratulations! You too have been successful brainwashed by a system that is so opposed to individual achievement that it calls upon the false god of altruism for value.

Do you honestly think that homeless people spend money better then charities and shelters? Most of the food that homeless people get themselves is in the form of random leftovers from sympathisers, or McDonalds. Yeah, that's really good.

You've just provided a great example of "convert to my way or you get nothing".

What gives you the right to tell other people how to live, what to eat, and how to take care of themselves? Like I said before: Just because you give someone $2 doesn't mean you own them.

You don't own someone if you give them $2. You don't have the right to tell them what to do.

But you don't have any obligation to give them that $2, for any reason you wish.

From my interpretation, Swimmingpool isn't saying he owns anyone, just giving his reasons for choosing not to give money straight to beggers.

I refuse to give to charities, and I refuse to give money to beggars. Last time a beggar asked me for money I went into a Tim Hortons and bought him a sandwich, which is what I do every time such a thing happens (not always Tim Hortons, but you get the picture). Most people are really happy to get fed, some get angry. If they get angry, I just walk away and eat the sandwich. Simple.

I would much rather give money directly to the needy than give it to a church or charity, because not ALL the money I give would go to the people in that case. These charities have overhead costs you know, often they need your donation money as much as the beggar outside on the street.

As for the church, well... maybe it's my aethism bias talking, but when an old man in gold-trimmed silk robes sitting on a gold throne in a building that's basically made out of gold (in the middle of a golden city-state, no less) tells me to live humbly, my bullshit detector goes off. I'm not a big fan of giving righ people money, even if they claim it's for poor people. As the old Italian saying goes, "with the guts of the last priest we shall hang the last king."

Poor people are a drain on the economy however, and unless they can obtain their own money, they should be let starve.

Poor people are not a drain on the economy: the unemployed are a major force of consumption who support the over-productive nature of western capitalism. They are consumers who do not produce and as such are a perfect market for all other kinds of business.

Money given to the unemployed does not disappear - rather it is injected back into the marketplace.

That's how I know the vast majority of Christian churches operate.

do you now

and you have some proof of this Church conspiracy?

You've just provided a great example of "convert to my way or you get nothing".

What gives you the right to tell other people how to live, what to eat, and how to take care of themselves? Like I said before: Just because you give someone $2 doesn't mean you own them.

I'm not telling anyone how to live. I'm just choosing who to give my money to.

People choose to donate. You'll find, however, that the vast majority of mosques and synagogues are very poor. It has something to do with the whole not amassing material possessions and worldly goods thing. I think Jesus may have mentioned it somewhere as well, but between the Pope's golden throne and the massive tracts of land owned by the Baptists and Methodists, the message got lost on Christians.

People choose to donate to Christian charities too. They're not forced to. I don't know about the vast majority of Mosques and synagogues being poor. There are two mosques in Dublin. One of them is the biggest religious building in the entire city, and that includes the Christian cathedrals. When I took a tour of it I noticed the lavishness of the decoration and the building in general, more so than most Christian churches I've seen, short of St Peter's Basilica.

I agree about the throne; I think the Catholic church's materialism is hypocritical.

What do the Baptists and Methodists do with their massive tracts of land? I'm not American.

So you'd rather buy a preacher a new Mercedes instead of a homeless guy a sandwich? How very Christian of you.
Way to generalise about Christian "preachers" (if that's what you want to call them)! It's no secret that America is the land of corrupted, hypocritical Christianity, but don't generalise about the entire world! I trust that money given to church charities (or better yet, secular charities) will go to the homeless shelters. I've known priests in my life and none of them ever had a fancy car or lived in a mansion.

Homeless guy? I'll buy him the sandwich myself, but I don't trust him to spend money on one. It's quite likely that he'll spend the money on heroin instead.

The beggar, the mugger, and the street preacher are all one and the same.

Nonsense: one of them asks for money with no threat of violence or promise of material return, the next demands money by threat of violence, and the last is either selling you information or a performance in return for a fee.

I don't think beggars should be given money. If you give them cash, they usually spend it on booze.

I don't think beggars should be given money. If you give them cash, they usually spend it on booze.

Why is this a bad thing? They are after all supporting the drinks industry.

Nonsense: one of them asks for money with no threat of violence or promise of material return, the next demands money by threat of violence, and the last is either selling you information or a performance in return for a fee.
Yes, that is my point. Everyone of them demands that you give them something for which they offer you nothing of valid worth in exchange. Slightly different methods, same ends, same effects. Subtle distinctions between the three don't make them different animals, merely different individuals of the same parisitic species.

I don't give it to either. I give my money to the charities that I know will use it right, like the salvation army.

If a begger actually does ask, I'll usually tell them something like sure, but I'll go with you to help you pick out the best kind of food and more ofen than not they usually just walk away.

Why is this a bad thing? They are after all supporting the drinks industry.
They are harming themselves by spending money on toxic substances instead of food and shelter. A compassionate person should not let bums just waste away on the side of the street like that.

Poor people are not a drain on the economy: the unemployed are a major force of consumption who support the over-productive nature of western capitalism. They are consumers who do not produce and as such are a perfect market for all other kinds of business.

Money given to the unemployed does not disappear - rather it is injected back into the marketplace.

Im not talking about the unemployed, im talking about the homeless beggars, who are a small percentage of the unemployed. These people only circulate money, money which you could easily circulate yourself. They dont do anything productive with it, other than live, which is no gain(which I consider a drain, time-wise at least). If no beggars were given money, they would spend more time trying to get a real job, and less time begging. Thus productivity would go up, and most likely it would have bigger gains, than there would be losses from beggars dying from starvation.

Why is this a bad thing? They are after all supporting the drinks industry.

Or the person who would have given the beggar money could use it and buy booze for himself, with the same economic gain(or more, because now he can spend what he might have spent on booze otherwise on something more productive).

Yes, that is my point. Everyone of them demands that you give them something for which they offer you nothing of valid worth in exchange. Slightly different methods, same ends, same effects. Subtle distinctions between the three don't make them different animals, merely different individuals of the same parisitic species.

If you accept the comment that a street preacher is selling you information or a performance in hope of a fee and still equate them with a mugger, then the London Symphony Orchestra should also be bracketted in with muggers, yes?

Money given to the unemployed does not disappear - rather it is injected back into the marketplace.Back into the blackmarketplace

j/k, no-one go spazz now.

We should give beggars cigarettes. They suppress appetite and shave years off the bums life!

If you accept the comment that a street preacher is selling you information or a performance in hope of a fee and still equate them with a mugger, then the London Symphony Orchestra should also be bracketted in with muggers, yes?
The London Symphony Orchestra offers me a pleasant performance of various musical works.
Brother Cal offers me an explanation of the evils of <some random object or possibly person>.
The London Symphony Orchestra requests that a cover charge to enter and partake of the music that they have offered.
Brother Cal demands that I pay him so that he can build a temple out of ice that he can wear on his head while he takes showers.

Now, I'll admit that Brother Cal isn't exactly a typical street preacher, I am using him as an example of that variety of person's worthlessness. If I want news, I will watch the tele, tun on the radio, or buy a newspaper. If I ever drop so low that I feel the need for a deity originated pick me up, there are a wide variety of churches that offer such services for free.

Now, I'll admit that Brother Cal isn't exactly a typical street preacher, I am using him as an example of that variety of person's worthlessness. If I want news, I will watch the tele, tun on the radio, or buy a newspaper. If I ever drop so low that I feel the need for a deity originated pick me up, there are a wide variety of churches that offer such services for free.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most churches still pass around a collection plate in some form?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most churches still pass around a collection plate in some form?

but its not like Fr. John is gonna get the alter boys to rough you up out back if you don't chip in, I've seen people go to my Church for years and never give a penny

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most churches still pass around a collection plate in some form?
OK, OK, I get it, you didn't have to say it 3 times. Anyway, I am not exactly an expert on religious tradition, what with being an affirmed atheist rat bastard and all, but there are many ways to get "churched" without payment.
However, this isn't the point and right now we are arguing the specifics (whether being a street preacher is a valid form of employment) instead of the overall picture (why you shouldn't give money to bums).

I'd like to hope that I would find myself in an opium den before I lose enough of myself to step foot in a church.

but its not like Fr. John is gonna get the alter boys to rough you up out back if you don't chip in, I've seen people go to my Church for years and never give a penny

I have never met a street preacher who has had the boys ('alter'ed or not) threatening to rough you up if you don't contribute. Even Paisley doesn't do that.

I'd like to hope that I would find myself in an opium den before I lose enough of myself to step foot in a church.

I bet thats what most of those hobos said too

I bet thats what most of those hobos said too
And I still support myself without either one of them. Drugs are only neccessary if you have something to hide from, I admitted what I am to myself long ago and have never looked back.

When you have nothing everyone's a rich man, and through the eyes of a beggar is as close most of you will get to being rich. For the vast majority of Americans we live just a couple of tough breaks and a few pay checks away from homelessness.

In the past year I've seen four hurricanes rip the crap out of my State and tens of thousands become homeless overnight, homes and jobs just wiped out. Yes this can happen to you, and chances are it may happen to tens of thousands again this year through fire, flood, volcanic eruption, earthquake, tornados, and yes hurricanes like it does every year in this little slice of heaven we call America.

Then again we might have a serious economic slide brought about by high oil and a ass load of credit. I can tell right now in Florida I've been seeing more economic refugees than winos on the street.

Then again we might have a serious economic slide brought about by high oil and a ass load of credit. I can tell right now in Florida I've been seeing more economic refugees than winos on the street.

check that street a few weeks from now and see whose still there, those who are determined will seek help from the charities we've been talking about and chances are those that are content will not

The beggar, the mugger, and the street preacher are all one and the same. Everyone of them has decided that you owe them a living, simply by the merit that they are there. They offer you nothing of value (neither goods nor services) in exchange for handing them cash.
Better that they should go into prostitution or drug running, at least then they can offer something in exchange for the money that they are incapable of earning.
If, for some reason, that suggestion makes you angry, then congratulations! You too have been successful brainwashed by a system that is so opposed to individual achievement that it calls upon the false god of altruism for value.The suggestion doesn't make me angry, but rather kind of sad.

You see I haven't been brainwashed to believe the value of a person can somehow be measured in currency.

And that's what I see all to often in debates that occur on topics such as poverty, immigration and charity. Most seem to be long strings of rants and arguements about the financial or economic impact of these issues of morality. The suggestion that prostitution or drug dealing would be a better occupation than panhandling saddens me most of all.

The mere fact that someone posts here shows that providence has landed them in a life that is far better than over half their fellow inhabitants of this rock we ride through space on. Yet so many wish to jeasously deny their fellows the same opportunities and benifits that they enjoy. I can't bring myself to believe that just because someone was born on the wrong side of an imagined line on the ground or life hasn't given them the same opportunities that I've been given that they aren't deserving of at least caring on my part if not my assistance. Even if their plight is a product of their own doing I still can't find it in my heart to turn my back. I don't think of myself as some bleeding heart, I just know the truth, that chance more than anything accounts for our lot in life.

Nobody yet has pointed out that the vast majority of beggars (At least here in Sydney, Australia) have severe mental problems.

I've had some contact with them, in that I'm willing to stop in the street and chat (even had one person try to put out a cigarette on my arm, and bite me). Most people avoid them, and ignore any conversations. I don't really blame them, especially if they've had one try to bite or burn them.

A friend of mine bought a whole lot of sandwiches, fresh fruit, drinks, and gave them to a young couple begging in the street. The girl was thankful, but the guy just went off, swearing at her for wasting the money, and how she should give him cash.

I know these are just stupid individual stories, that don't mean anything in the long run, but I think they are important. Beggars are scary for a number of reasons, they are potentially criminals, or more likely to be criminals (because they have the least other options), and...more...they make us rich people feel bad about ourselves. We don't like that, and would prefer they didn't exist. They aren't cute street urchins, like in Oliver Twist, and when you try to be nice to them, occasionally one bites you. Wonderful.

Never had those concerns from a businessman.

I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't give money to beggars. There are plenty of really needy people, and most that end up on the streets have mental issues that make it impossible for them to live an otherwise normal life.
We have a van that drives around the city each night, picking up as many homeless as it can, and giving them a room to stay for the night, and food the next day. They unfortunately can't take everyone, and need to have a "three night maximum" rule. It's really saddening, and I'd like to be able to support them more. I'd much rather give them the money, since I know they are doing good. I've seen it with my own eyes. When I give a beggar money, I don't know what's happening with it, they could buy booze, or food. It's their choice to buy what they want, but I have better things to do with MY money than buy booze for some hobo. I *don't* have better things to do than buy food for another human being who needs it. I do understand why people would avoid interacting with the beggers and offering food.

Interestingly, the point about them making a lot of money, there is a guy that begs (or used to) at the bus stops near the city cinema. I've given him money a few times. One day I had a really late bus, so I was sitting there for ages watching him. He was getting gold coins from most people who donated, and getting a fair few donations. I estimated that he was earning somewhere between $30AU and $40AU an hour. Heck, I don't even earn that, and I've got a university degree. Oh, and he doesn't pay tax, which is another nice addition.

I have a real problem with him earning more money than me, by causing a public nuisance, and emotionally taking advantage of peoples good will. The more it's taken advantage of, the less will be available for those that truly need it. I feel the fool for giving him money, when I'd better spend it on someone else, or a soup kitchen. Of course, I'd probably spend it on myself if not on him, but, hey, I worked for it. What right does he have to a free ride?

And don't say the "work" they put in begging. That's rubbish. If someone has a sign "will work for food", that's fine. No problem if they're willing to work. If they're even standing on the sidewalk handing out papers, or selling rope bracelets (which are both activities for them to do here, and they get paid a small amount), that's all fine with me.

I'm in favor of donating to charity. Even better, I'm in favor of volunteering at a soup kitchen, although I've never done that myself (I'm lazy, and prefer to salve my concience by donating money) my brother has, and I respect him for it. One of his teachers copied his example and also started donating time.

I'm not sure what my points are, I'm rambling a bit. Mostly because I can't clearly state my opinions without realizing that I'm a hypocrite, and live in luxury while others barely scrape by.

I like this story. It's a church saying, "Don't give your money to beggars, but please, please, please, please, please, please, we beseech and implore you to give it to us."

Cute.
I know someone who was actually helped out quite a bit by religious charities. No one was actually saying "give the money to the church." They were recommending that the money go to church charities, which actually do quite a bit of decent community work.

And as far as the churches being wealthy is concerned, it must totally depend on what denomination you belong to. I mean, there are defintely those absurd "megachurches" in the sunbelt that have their own telecasts, but the Episcopal/Anglican church I go to is a small wooden building, and our congregation is absolutely tripping over ourselves with joy just because we were able to balance our budget this year. In spite of the organisation's hardship and the modest incomes of our parishioners, we were still able to donate several thousand dollars to a project to provide aid to tsunami victims.

We do a lot for our community and we never ask for conversion in exchange for aid or anything of the sort.

Seriously, Keruvalia. I'd always had a degree of respect for your intelligence, but I would think that, with you being a devout Muslim, you would have some sensitivity to broad condescending generalisations of other peoples' faiths.

Alright, I've just volunteered for Sydney's Big Brother project.

Where you spend some time with a troubled child, just as a friend.

This thread made me realize that there is always so much more that we can be doing for other people. Even if I'm not going to hand over money to every homeless person I seem, I can at least make sure that each week I'm doing something positive to help someone. And something I'll enjoy too.

Heh, and before you worry, my application for the project isn't a knee-jerk, I-didn't-think-about-this response. It is something I've thought about for a while (and talked to my girlfriend about). Putting down in words that I respect my brother for volunteering at the soup kitchen, however, acted as something of a call-to-arms for me, to get me to actually check out the details and apply.

Now I feel all good about myself.
Sorry to interrupt the discussion on homeless people, charity, and/or the church. It's interesting :)

You see I haven't been brainwashed to believe the value of a person can somehow be measured in currency.
Its not a matter of currency, its a matter of free exchange. If you want something from soemone, then you must be ready to offer something in return. Neither the panhandler nor the mugger offer anything in exchange for my currency, yet they feel that they somehow have a right to it.

And that's what I see all to often in debates that occur on topics such as poverty, immigration and charity. Most seem to be long strings of rants and arguements about the financial or economic impact of these issues of morality. The suggestion that prostitution or drug dealing would be a better occupation than panhandling saddens me most of all.
What is wrong with prostitution and drug dealing, provided all those involved willingly entered into the deal? Poverty is a matter important only to the poor and those that seek empowerment over them. As a poster on a webboard with a reasonable grasp of grammar, I would say that you aren't a completely destitute bum.

The mere fact that someone posts here shows that providence has landed them in a life that is far better than over half their fellow inhabitants of this rock we ride through space on. Yet so many wish to jeasously deny their fellows the same opportunities and benifits that they enjoy. I can't bring myself to believe that just because someone was born on the wrong side of an imagined line on the ground or life hasn't given them the same opportunities that I've been given that they aren't deserving of at least caring on my part if not my assistance. Even if their plight is a product of their own doing I still can't find it in my heart to turn my back. I don't think of myself as some bleeding heart, I just know the truth, that chance more than anything accounts for our lot in life.
I must respectuflly disagree. My parents haven't bought me out of my troubles, nor has anyone ever handed me something out of a sense of charital obligation.
Further, the only proffession that is exclusively a matter of chance is the career gambler, and the closest I have ever come to that is occassional nights out to play poker (where I lose more money than I profit).
I'd say that I am a result of my actions, and not random chance. The only people who would deny that simple truth are those people who want an excuse foor their failings.

Alright, I've just volunteered for Sydney's Big Brother project.

Where you spend some time with a troubled child, just as a friend.

Good man yourself.

I used to give money to beggars frequently, then I started working in a hostel where some of the patrons were beggers. I realised for the most part they were just wasting it on alcohol, cigarettes and drugs and decided not to give them any. Then I thought, "who am I to judge them? I'm going to waste it on drugs, alcohol and cigarettes." Then I changed jobs and now I don't have enough money to give to beggers.

I don't give money individually because there are too many homeless and I have far too little income. I give money to charities that give to homeless and such, though.

And if there is an offer going on cheap sausage rolls (e.g. 6 for £1) I'll buy six, eat one and give away the rest.

Agreed. My city has too many homeless for me to effectively help them all individually. Generally, if I want to benefit someone specifically, I take them to a nearby deli and buy them a decent meal rather than just giving them money. Otherwise I simply give to charity.

you see i believe this way.. if i have the extra money at the time i'll give the money to a homeless person i see i once gave a homeless man 50 bucks... its not that all homeless aka beggars can get help from the state.. what if they dont have a ride to the place what if they have already used all they were allowed... think about it if you were in their position what would you do? certinly you wouldnt choose to be on the streets if you didnt have to... but again i'd probably go into a buisiness with a Help Wanted sign and try to get a job... but thats me some people dont have the luxury i have... now i have seen a homeless man live on the streets while working and having a steady income... he said he liked living on the streets... needless to say we found him 2 years ago dead in a dumpster... Alchohol poisioning they figure... but it dont much matter to me... see i see it like this... if you can give that person a little bit of money its one more person whom you've helped in that day... and i dont care what anyone says giving a person money is ALOT different than giving to a charity by the time you donate to a charity and it funnels through everything about 20% of your donation goes to the people that really need it... otherwise it goes to pay the helpers buy them food pay light bills phone bills and whatever else the charity uses in its buildings... so its actually a better decision to give the money to those who need it... just thought i'd give you a little insight as to what really happens in a charity place... seeing as how i work in one... they dont give all of your donation to the people who need it... only one that does that is the Red Cross... but even then your looking at about only 80% reaching those who need it...

Its not a matter of currency, its a matter of free exchange. If you want something from soemone, then you must be ready to offer something in return. Neither the panhandler nor the mugger offer anything in exchange for my currency, yet they feel that they somehow have a right to it.You brought up the mugger, not I nor the creator of this thread. A panhandler isn't demanding you give him anything, he's asking for it. I myself am selective about whom I give to, but I do give and don't dismiss someone offhand. Besides recognized chairities I do give to panhandlers, not all but those I believe unable to make their way in the normal sense in society.


What is wrong with prostitution and drug dealing, provided all those involved willingly entered into the deal? Poverty is a matter important only to the poor and those that seek empowerment over them. As a poster on a webboard with a reasonable grasp of grammar, I would say that you aren't a completely destitute bum.Prostitution and drug use/sales do far more to marginalize and demean the downtrodden of society than begging ever did or could. Very few prostitutes are the stuff of hollywood's treatment of the oldest profession. Prostitution is usually an act of desperation, betrayal or exploitation. And that just covers your 'willing' participants.
Drugs and those who deal in them do more to add to ranks of homeless and destitute than anything else with the possible exception of the alcohol industry. Every person who traffics in such contributes to the growing ranks of the outcast of society. You give as an alternative something that only serves to perpetuate the problem.


I must respectuflly disagree. My parents haven't bought me out of my troubles, nor has anyone ever handed me something out of a sense of charital obligation.
Further, the only proffession that is exclusively a matter of chance is the career gambler, and the closest I have ever come to that is occassional nights out to play poker (where I lose more money than I profit).
I'd say that I am a result of my actions, and not random chance. The only people who would deny that simple truth are those people who want an excuse foor their failings.The dice were rolled for you even before your birth. You won the jackpot and can't recognize it. You or I could have found ourselves born to dirt floor abject poverty in the third world just as easily as we found ourselves in our comfortable lives. Those who find themselves on the loosing end of draw have commited no crime or done nothing to justify regulating them to the lives they were born into, it's all a cosmic crap shoot and I'm wise enough to know I rolled a seven and compasionate enough to want to share my winnings with those who were dealt snake-eyes.
After all we had no part in choosing to play the game, we just reap the winnings or are left paying the tab.

check that street a few weeks from now and see whose still there, those who are determined will seek help from the charities we've been talking about and chances are those that are content will not

There are too many of them down here, we get more and more everyday the charities are full up just trying to keep women and children off the streets. Orlando's method of dealing with the homeless problem is a bus ticket out of town. The other municipalities are quickly catching on so they dump them back on us.

Try to understand the math of desperation. If you have an address and a phone you can always get a part time minimum wage job. A studio apartment will cost you $500-$700 hundred a month here. People have to work two 38 hour part time jobs just to be able to afford the least existence our society allows. If something happens like they loose one job or they get sick, they are on the streets. That's the new American outsourced off shored service economy and Orlando Florida is the Republican archetype for the rest of the country.

I know people with college degrees who are living like this, unless your sitting on a fat endowment you may someday as well.

needless to say we found him 2 years ago dead in a dumpster... Alchohol poisioning they figure... but it dont much matter to me... see i see it like this... if you can give that person a little bit of money its one more person whom you've helped in that day.

but you wouldn't helped that person by giving them money, the only thing you would have help him into was an early grave through alcohol poisoning - I still think the money is much better off in the hands of the Church or a charity or both

Absolutely not, maybe in Calcutta where there is probably no welfare to help, but in western countrys, noway, particularly mine, we give our citizens every incentive to stay down and out with our generous welfare system. A kick in the face is all they deserve to be honest.

My answer (and may suprize some) is no ... we should not

What we should do is give to local food shelters and charity organizations and make sure ample money for survival is goten to thoes that need it and even more make sure we help people help themselfs and be productive and stand on their own two feet if they can

there is no way you should give money to beggars. Besides the fact you don't know what they are spending the money on you have no idea that they really need it. Consider this. It seems as though every time you drive by a beggar someone is pulled over handing them a $20 bill. Now if you could head over and get a job or just dress up like a hobo get a sign and sit and wait for people to hand you movie what would you do? instead give to donation where you know the money will go to good.

Poor people are a drain on the economy however, and unless they can obtain their own money, they should be let starve.
I couldn't disagree more - I think that the economy is a drain on people.
Without our barbaric management of resources, they wouldn't be poor.

I was going to Church in the city to day (Wilmington, DE) and we noticed a cop outside. this was a little strange because its not in a particularly bad part of town nor does it really house anything worth stealing. over the months a few beggers had started to ask for money outside the Church on sundays, apparently the success of one beggar a while back netted him a few dollars and attracted more and more of them. and then last week when one of them was turned down he told the Church goers that he had a gun and more or less robbed them. hence the cop.

when I was in san francisco (far more beggars than New York, Washington, Philadelphia or any other big city I've been to) a Church newspaper begger the parishioners not to give money to the beggars outside because more often than not the money went to drugs and booze. they asked that to be truly compassionate to give the money to Church charities who could make sure the money went for food, clothes and shelter.

bearing those examples in mind are we doing a vast disservice when we give money to beggars?

I dont give money to bums as a general rule. The way I see it, if I give money to a bum I'm telling him "I don't think you're capable of earning this money on your own. You're useless, and as such whether or not you eat [or get drunk] tonight is totally dependent on my mercy."

Fuck that. Each individual has value. Its not my fault if you can't find it. I shouldn't have to pay you if you've lost it. I lived for six weeks on $6 and no job, and I didn't ask a single goddamn person for their money. And I'm damn proud of that.

Why is this a bad thing? They are after all supporting the drinks industry.
People arn't here to support the industries. It's supposed to be the other way around.

I couldn't disagree more - I think that the economy is a drain on people.
Without our barbaric management of resources, they wouldn't be poor.

They arent mutually exclusive.

I'm not telling anyone how to live. I'm just choosing who to give my money to.

Fair enough.

People choose to donate to Christian charities too. They're not forced to. I don't know about the vast majority of Mosques and synagogues being poor. There are two mosques in Dublin. One of them is the biggest religious building in the entire city, and that includes the Christian cathedrals. When I took a tour of it I noticed the lavishness of the decoration and the building in general, more so than most Christian churches I've seen, short of St Peter's Basilica.

Yes ... I know there are some wealthy mosques and synagogues in the world, but the vast majority of them are poor.


What do the Baptists and Methodists do with their massive tracts of land? I'm not American.

Mostly use them for camps with clever native american names aimed at the recruitment of children.


Way to generalise about Christian "preachers" (if that's what you want to call them)! It's no secret that America is the land of corrupted, hypocritical Christianity, but don't generalise about the entire world! I trust that money given to church charities (or better yet, secular charities) will go to the homeless shelters. I've known priests in my life and none of them ever had a fancy car or lived in a mansion.

True! America has corrupted just about everything it touches and my view on this is skewed by having to deal with American churches. I will grant you that. However, if you give a needy family $100, that family gets $100. After paying its building rent, utility bills, salary for the officers, general office supply expenses, postal expenses, and all manner of other things, the charity will give $20 spread out to five needy families.

I don't care where you are in the world, the power company wants your money before anyone else gets it.

Seriously, Keruvalia. I'd always had a degree of respect for your intelligence, but I would think that, with you being a devout Muslim, you would have some sensitivity to broad condescending generalisations of other peoples' faiths.

You'll notice I always qualify with "many" or "some" or make specifications. I have yet to pronounce a broad-reaching, global generalisation. I have met, and even attended the services of, some very fine Christian organizations that were welcoming, hard working, didn't shove a collection plate in my face, did not ask me to convert, and did everything they could to help out the community in a secular fashion (meaning: they didn't say, "Praise Jesus" every time they gave a homeless man a bowl of soup, they just gave him the soup).

I applaud that. I have also, however, witnessed on a much wider scale all manner of vulgarity, judgement, hypocrisy, and inhuman behavior and it always seems to come from a "good Christian". While I am aware that such actions do not a good Christian make and I am always more than willing and happy to get together with anyone who wishes to show me yet another example of what it means to be truly Christian, experience and evidence makes me a little bit of a cynic and if it is offensive, I apologize whole heartedly.

Yes ... I know there are some wealthy mosques and synagogues in the world, but the vast majority of them are poor.

THat's only because Muslim-majority nations and therefore Muslim congregations are generally poorer than Christian-majority nations. It's not because Christian churches are inherently greedier or more likely to flaunt their wealth than are mosques. I'm sure mosques try just as hard as churches to get money from worshippers, for both charity and non-charity purposes. If given a chance, and given wealthy-enough patronage, a mosque would just as likely as a church to put up stained glass and gold-gilded monuments instead of spending all its resources on alms. Some would argue this isn't all a bad thing, given that many mosques, both old and new, have some of the most luxurious and beautiful architecture in the world.

Mostly use them for camps with clever native american names aimed at the recruitment of children.

the recruitment of children? what, like kidnapping them from school and brainwashing them to love God? and how many acres are we talking here?

if you give a needy family $100, that family gets $100.

but we're not talking about families, we're talking about hobos and crack addicts

After paying its building rent, utility bills, salary for the officers, general office supply expenses, postal expenses, and all manner of other things, the charity will give $20 spread out to five needy families.

you just made that figure up! you don't even offer any evidece to support it! from what Catholic Relief Services tells us that figure is more around 98$ and untill you can come up with evidence to the contrary I'm going to believe them

the recruitment of children? what, like kidnapping them from school and brainwashing them to love God? and how many acres are we talking here?

I regularly went on christian camps while at junior school. I loved them, I'd get to go camping, horse riding, sailing. All fun things.
And we'd talk about God, I'd get this lovely sense of some great big guy looking down and caring about me. Usually that would fade after the camp, when I'm not constantly talking about religion and being "guided".

My point is, it never hurt me, I got to find out about the religion in a fun, interesting way. They potentially get converts, but, really, since it's people who genuinely believe they are doing you a favor by teaching you about Jesus, it's really not sinister at all. All just good fun. It's a nice community thing the church is doing.

you just made that figure up! you don't even offer any evidece to support it! from what Catholic Relief Services tells us that figure is more around 98$ and untill you can come up with evidence to the contrary I'm going to believe them
I've heard that Save the Children fund (I think it was. Could have been another group) spends 80c in each dollar on administrative and advertising. I could believe this, considering how extremely well known the charity is. I know most charities are extremely under-funded, and pass much more than this on.

Even that statistic, bad as it sounds, doesn't say that they keep 80c. I heard most of the money goes on advertising. We had Save the Children people come around to our school. I wouldn't expect them to do that without some sort of pay, even if less than they would otherwise earn.

My question has always been..."if they spend a higher percentage on advertising, does that mean they make more for the children in total?"
If they spend 80% of the money on advertising, and get ten times as many people donating...there's still more money going to the children in total. So it's really not as bad as it sounds.

I'd still rather give to a charity that passes on a larger percentage, but a large part of my "give to charity" attitude comes from growing up with Save the Children working with my school to arrange charity fundraisers and the like.

And, if I donate $1 which I otherwise wouldn't have, that's still 20c giving to the needy which otherwise wouldn't have gotten to them. It's still a good thing.

When you say "they don't give enough, I don't donate to them" the next question has to be "so who is better, and do you donate to them instead?"

You'll notice I always qualify with "many" or "some" or make specifications. I have yet to pronounce a broad-reaching, global generalisation. I have met, and even attended the services of, some very fine Christian organizations that were welcoming, hard working, didn't shove a collection plate in my face, did not ask me to convert, and did everything they could to help out the community in a secular fashion (meaning: they didn't say, "Praise Jesus" every time they gave a homeless man a bowl of soup, they just gave him the soup).

I applaud that. I have also, however, witnessed on a much wider scale all manner of vulgarity, judgement, hypocrisy, and inhuman behavior and it always seems to come from a "good Christian". While I am aware that such actions do not a good Christian make and I am always more than willing and happy to get together with anyone who wishes to show me yet another example of what it means to be truly Christian, experience and evidence makes me a little bit of a cynic and if it is offensive, I apologize whole heartedly.

I apologise for not having read the subtext of what you were saying. I agree there are a lot of philosophical issues with certain segments of the Christian community. I'm afraid I haven't had any of the negative experiences you've had. I guess I'm just lucky like that. Anyway, I apologise for misinterpreting again.

Depends who your giving to, and how much. Plus are these people willing to start their lives back up again?

Nice Story Earth Orbit. But then again, thats to charities.

These are to beggars. And some of them, even if you do give them cash, they'll just be collecting for another round of booze or drugs.

Then there's another kind of beggars. Syndicate beggars. Where they purposely cripple somebody, so that they'll beg, and you give them money. Then some guy would use the money and buy himself a new mercedes.

What we want, is to help people. But unfortunately, unless your rich and have a company that can support these people by giving them a place to stay and a job, it's kind of hard. Unless you work for a charity.

I generally give money to anyone who asks me for it. I surmise that you really do want a dollar if you are willing to ask a complete stranger for one. I don't care what they spend it on, as it would be supremely hypocritical of me to not give a beggar money because I thought he was going to spend it on booze.

I'm thinking it's really time to figure out just how much of my donation money actually goes to the people who need it. o_o

I had a guy in a parking lot, while I was working and putting away carts, walk up to me and ask for money so he could get gas so he could finish getting to his sick grandmother, who he was driving to from like, the coast or something.

So, the guy basically told me, not only could he not think ahead enough to have money enough to drive back home. He didn't even have enough to GET to his destination.

Even if the guy was sincere, he was too stupid to live and deserved to die in the street for the sake of the species.

Good lord. Call the woman on the phone or something. Get family to help. Hitchike. But go DRIVING without money. OY.

I don't believe in simply giving money out to beggars. That teaches them nothing about the value of money.
That's why, before I hand over a couple of dollars, I always get them to do a little dance for the amusement of myself and my friends. In this way, they've earned the money and gained some self-respect.

I don't believe in simply giving money out to beggars. That teaches them nothing about the value of money.
That's why, before I hand over a couple of dollars, I always get them to do a little dance for the amusement of myself and my friends. In this way, they've earned the money and gained some self-respect.

I got one to do ten pushups for me once, he was struggling on his second last one, as I had my foot on his head.
I gave him twenty cents.
Stupid bum.

We're in one of the richest countries in the world,
but the minimum wage is lower than it was thirty five years ago.
There are homeless people everywhere.
This homeless guy asked me for money the other day.
I was about to give it to him and then I thought he was going to use it on drugs or alcohol.
And then I thought, that's what I'm going to use it on.
Why am I judging this poor bastard.
People love to judge homeless guys. Like if you give them money they're just going to waste it.
Well, he lives in a box, what do you want him to do? Save it up and buy a wall unit?
Take a little run to the store for a throw rug and a CD rack? He's homeless.
I walked behind this guy the other day.
A homeless guy asked him for money.
He looks right at the homeless guy and says why don't you go get a job you bum.
People always say that to homeless guys like it is so easy.
This homeless guy was wearing his underwear outside his pants.
Outside his pants. I'm guessing his resume isn't all up to date.
I'm predicting some problems during the interview process.
I'm pretty sure even McDonalds has a "underwear goes inside the pants" policy.
Not that they enforce it really strictly, but technically I'm sure it is on the books.

thats the last part of a song. The rest of it is here. (http://www.lyricstop.com/u/underweargoesinsidethepants-lazyboy.html)

There are no beggars or panhandlers anywhere near where I live. Me and my wife (and the organization she is active in) regularly donate food and time to the local food pantry.
I also became associated with a group of immigrants I saw walking to work each day-give them rides to work often. They work at a car wash and through last winter, each of them are wearing coats and polar- tech jackets I never wore, but were getting old in my closet,instead of the denim and dungaree jackets they had been wearing.
We visited Washington DC last week and came across numerous people with a cup or hat out. I had already transferred a bunch of 5 dollar bills to another pocket and managed to donate to several without stopping and making a production of getting $$ out. I dont feel any of the ones I saw in person were making a killing at this. And if they buy malt liquor or food isnt my business. They may need a 40 oz the same way I need lunch. I wanted my kids to see its ok to give something to these people, instead of just shunning them and crossing the street. And the $5.00 I drop in a guy's cup goes a lot further than the $10.00 I put in a church collection plate each week. I'd rather see this guy enjoy a 40 oz, than see another donation toward another gold chalice, of all things.

I'm thinking it's really time to figure out just how much of my donation money actually goes to the people who need it. o_o


thats more a a mystery than the meaning of life.

The rich man in his mansion,
The poor man at his gate.
God made them high and lowly,
And ordered their estate.

Where is that quote from?

I gave a buck to a guy who asked me for one today. He didnt look like a bum, but he defidentally was a lower-class mexican, homeless for all I know. He said he needed a dollar to take BART(our train, basically). I gave him the dollar. If he had been a bum, begging on the street for money, then I wouldnt have given it to him. That mexican, or his kids if he has any, have a good chance of becoming respectable, productive members of society. Even if he was going to spend it on drugs or something, at least he probably has some kind of job(he was riding a bike around. How many homeless do you see ride bikes around the suburbs?).

Just thought I would share this, so I dont seem like a completely heartless person.

I make it a point not to hand out money to beggars. I have no sympathy for people that choose not to work for a living. Last night, I was buying gas and a guy wanted to know if I could give him a few bucks for some gas. I said no. He walks into the store and walks out with a beer. I know that if I had given him $2 he would have had 2 beers instead. I figure people that really need my money can find a charity that is willing to help them.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't most churches still pass around a collection plate in some form?


There are often two collections. One-a general collection and often a second, for a specific offering.


I also hate when they ask for donations inside movies theaters. I'm talking about theater employees taking cash donations after we get to see a little pitch from the Will Rogers Foundation. I just paid $8.50 each for 5 people to get in and another $30.00 on flat syrupy soda and popcorn. I think the movies inductry could donate some of this and the actor who gives the pitch could donate some and leave the rest of us alone.
I'll give the tattered and obviously hard up person on the street a $5.00 bill. The good side of me hopes he'll enjoy a meal with that money. If he doesnt-thats his business. But I'm dont donate in a movie theater to a charity that likely has millions in "administrative expenses and "raising public awareness"-two terms which really just mean "bullshit".

I used to only give money to homeless people at night, since at that time it would be cold and all the fake homeless people (there are actually people with homes who beg for a living) would have long gone home. I also only used to give money to non "regulars" as I figured the regular beggers were not making an effort to change their situation. However I kinda got round to thinking that only giving money to people who in some way appease my mood is kinda like asking people to jump through hoops for cash. Nowadays if somebody asks me for money and it won't severly inconvience me then I give them the money they want - regardless of who they are and what they want it for, if they want to piss away the cash I've given them then that's their fault, not mine.

<snip>
I've heard that Save the Children fund (I think it was. Could have been another group) spends 80c in each dollar on administrative and advertising. I could believe this, considering how extremely well known the charity is. I know most charities are extremely under-funded, and pass much more than this on.

Even that statistic, bad as it sounds, doesn't say that they keep 80c. I heard most of the money goes on advertising. We had Save the Children people come around to our school. I wouldn't expect them to do that without some sort of pay, even if less than they would otherwise earn.

<snip>


you have it the wrong way around, save the children spends 80% of its money on its program and 20% on advertising and administration. (that of course doesnt say how effective its program is)

they took in $240mil in 2003 and spent $215mil on their program.

some charities are more efficient than others, some waste way too much money, some are utter frauds.

if you want to make sure your money is going to be spent to its best advantage, especially if its not local, you should look it up. http://www.charitynavigator.org will tell you how they spend their money.

when it comes to those "christian childrens fund" kind of charities, i dont like the idea that i am, in effect, paying for their evangelism. while they take in children of all faiths im pretty sure they also try to convert them. feeding children = good evangelizing children = bad.

I give to any organisation that will give a homeless person a leg-up. ie, help them get a job/accommodation.

There needs to be a certain amount of short-term help - shelter & food for the night, etc - but in the long term that doesn't do very much for them. It mostly just makes it excusable to let them stay homeless.

As a rule, no. I worked as a street fundraiser and got quite chatty with a few. Unfortuantely a great many of them will spend the money on drink or drugs. Now, I'm not saying I might not do the same if I didn't have anywhere to live, but I'd rather my limitted money was better spent.

If you've got the balls (and god knows I haven't any more), offer them a bag of apples and a loaf of bread. I did that for a guy outside the Supermarket. Just told him if he didn't want it to give it to some of the other guys.

If you can afford it, giving a monthly donation to charities like Shelter is well worth it.

Except for that bit in the middle where the Church took money for sin 'removal' services and used it to finance wealthy lifestyles. But that bit doesn't get mentioned much...

that was the catholic church

did the thread's author mention the denomination (i forget..)?

I was going to Church in the city to day (Wilmington, DE) and we noticed a cop outside. this was a little strange because its not in a particularly bad part of town nor does it really house anything worth stealing. over the months a few beggers had started to ask for money outside the Church on sundays, apparently the success of one beggar a while back netted him a few dollars and attracted more and more of them. and then last week when one of them was turned down he told the Church goers that he had a gun and more or less robbed them. hence the cop.

when I was in san francisco (far more beggars than New York, Washington, Philadelphia or any other big city I've been to) a Church newspaper begger the parishioners not to give money to the beggars outside because more often than not the money went to drugs and booze. they asked that to be truly compassionate to give the money to Church charities who could make sure the money went for food, clothes and shelter.

bearing those examples in mind are we doing a vast disservice when we give money to beggars?
i only give money to street musicians with talent.

that was the catholic church

did the thread's author mention the denomination (i forget..)?
what other "church" has been around for 2 millenia

BTW, no, I generally don't give money to beggars (called panhandlers down here).

...unless the person is obviously gone mentally and has NO WAY to fend for himself.

But it seems as if some people (not kidding here) WANT to be on the street and not working. They look fine, speak well/intelligently, are polite, but are homeless.

There are places in downtown Nashville where people can go to get a shower, a meal and a cot. there are a plethora of businesses downtown that need people to work for them. the only thing i can figure that would keep someone who wanted to work from finding a good job (or just one that paid the bills) would be a felonious criminal record... but even THEN there are people who are willing to look past that and hire them.

so... if they don't want a job, hey, that's their choice, but then don't go around asking people for money.

so... if they don't want a job, hey, that's their choice, but then don't go around asking people for money.
How do they get a job if they are homeless? And how do they get a home if they have no job with which to pay the rent?

Think about that before you start talking such rubbish. No one *wants* to live on the streets.

I would give to organized charities, however... if my budget weren't so tight.

How do they get a job if they are homeless? And how do they get a home if they have no job with which to pay the rent?

Think about that before you start talking such rubbish. No one *wants* to live on the streets.

are you certain of that last?

Like I said, there are places at which they can bathe/get food... you bathe, get food, then go and find a job. If you want it, you put forth the effort.

are you certain of that last?

Like I said, there are places at which they can bathe/get food... you bathe, get food, then go and find a job. If you want it, you put forth the effort.

That doesn't help people who are mentally ill or suffer from drug addiction.

I was at a gas station the other day. There was a guy working there who was obviously poor. He asked me if I could spare some change. I gave him what I had. I gave him this mostly because

a)he was polite

and

b)he HAD a job and was STILL poor... which told me that he had decided to put forth the effort to find work, had landed a job, but that job didn't pay squat.

I had no problem with helping him. I hope that through hard work, he can move up to increasingly better opportunities.

That doesn't help people who are mentally ill or suffer from drug addiction.

I believe I said that if the person was unable to help himself, I would help him (provided i had money in my pocket).

I have, on previous occasions (to give another example), given people FOOD... they'd be like, "Man, I'm hungry, can you spare a dollar?" and i'd be like, "Okay, What do you want to eat?"

so i'd go get them food

that way i know they're not going to go blow it on a bottle

I believe I said that if the person was unable to help himself, I would help him (provided i had money in my pocket).

I wasn't criticising, I was merely commenting.

In fact, in such a situation it may be better NOT to give them money, as a drug addict will just spend the money on drugs. It is better to give it to outreach charities if you can afford it.

I wasn't criticising, I was merely commenting.

In fact, in such a situation it may be better NOT to give them money, as a drug addict will just spend the money on drugs. It is better to give it to outreach charities if you can afford it.

yes. and i don't know how giving money to a mentally unstable person would help either... would they know how to spend it? Would they forget they even had it? so in such cases maybe it'd be best to give them food.

Never give beggers money, western countrys Im talking about here, if you feel sorry for them then just take them into Hungry Jacks, shove a burger down their throat or something.

I was at a gas station the other day. There was a guy working there who was obviously poor. He asked me if I could spare some change. I gave him what I had.
Dear dear, If I was giving my business to an establishment and got harassed by some peasant working there I'd sure as hell make sure he was fired. That's just outrageous, what has the world come to when you can't even go to the gas station without getting hassled for cash, and by the employees of all people!