NationStates Jolt Archive

'Never Shall Be Slaves'
By James Humphreys - The Imperial Union of Britannic Colonies

Some years ago, I fell deeply in love with a very beautiful woman. She is dying now, but, in her past, she has accomplished more than you, I or anyone else could hope to achieve in a thousand lifetimes. Throughout her years, she has provided countless people with employment and safety. She assisted the oppressed, gave help to the needy, and protected those under her wing from all the evils the world could throw at her. She has stood as a guiding, hopeful light as she banished darkness from countless innocent lives. She has held power beyond any man's wildest dreams, instilled fairness, democracy and justice wherever she has stepped in her long life, graced the worlds skies with beautiful, graceful birds crafted by true artists, and stands tall as a symbol of freedom, despite the fact that she is weakening, dying, fast approaching powerless. Her name? Britannia.
Great Britannia. If our truly great ancestors knew where she stands now, they would spin in their graves. Great Britannia, who held a third of the world's surface, a quarter of its population, beneath her graceful wings, now ruled by other, unworthy nations herself. Great Britannia, who gave life to America, her child, and is now overshadowed by her creation. Great Britannia – Empress of Ireland, the British Commonwealth and the Great British Empire, the largest in history, now small and weak, ruled mainly by the monstrosity from across the English Channel. British Pound Sterling, the strongest monetary unit ever, on the brink of being absorbed by another.
Britain is truly dying. But not from any tangible, external threat. Like the mightiest of ancient Oaks, she is rotting from within. So many in our nation have no idea of the glory of the past – so many do not recognise the great names Victoria, Churchill, Nelson and Wellington. Few realise the proportion of the world's populace that stood proudly beneath the Union Jack – why is this?
For some, it is a lack of education. Governments have successively failed to place into the History curriculum the Glory of Imperial Britain, the victory over the darkness of Nazi Germany in the Second World War, and to teach how, in the nineteenth century, Britain truly ruled the waves. How can we expect our past to be passed on to our children if schools cannot tell the tale? It should be us to do this, but few do. Is this through Ignorance, a sign of a greater problem? Stupidity? Shame?
For there are now, in this time, people who are filled with shame and sorrow at our history. Our colonialist past – and the remnants of it that survive to the present. When did this injustice arise? The British Empire is not something to be ashamed of: Britain made the modern world. This ignorance of the past is both a symptom and a cause of the whole – the death of the great being from the roots upwards.
Another reason is the shameful state of our political system – our Constitution. The Palace of Westminster was once the powerhouse for the great overseas colonies – now it is merely speeding up our Nation's death. The traditional values, morals and protocols that made Great Britain great are slowly being eroded, strangling the nation in bureaucracy, red tape and the like. In modern times, London does not rule the world, the world rules London. Our government wishes the great Imperial nation to be absorbed, struggling, into the Cancer that is the European Union. Our leaders willingly allow our Errant child, America, to dictate our policies, priorities and military choices – as if we have a military left anyway.
There was a time when to be a British citizen presented immunity. Few dares to face our military might. When she was built, HMS Warrior only had to sail into a theatre of ocean warfare for the enemy to surrender. Now, the Royal Navy stands as a laughing-stock, feared by no-one.
There was a time when the British Army stood guard over the vast network of colonies we forged and ruled – now, it cannot successfully invade a single country without support. If Argentina were to invade the Falklands now, they would be lost.
In 1940, the Royal Air Force proved its supremacy over the skies, beating back the Nazi Luftwaffe with the best aeroplanes, the best training... and the best pilots. Were the Battle of Britain to occur again, British skies would fall, followed swiftly by the Emerald Isle herself.
It is this internal death that Britannia cannot cope with – the Empire was built on patriotism – belief in Great Britain by her own citizens and politicians. This sense of pride no longer exists. So please, listen to my plea. Look at our past, our glory, our power. Teach it to your children, grandchildren and proclaim that this is what should be so once more. Ask why it is not so now. Become proud of Britannia's past. Get to know her exploits, struggles, and conflicts won.
Britannia is dying. You can do something about it. Believe in your country, make it plain about your patriotism, pride, and knowledge of the glory of Imperial Britain.

Believe in Britannia, and she will rise again.

Great Britannia.

When Britain first at Heav'n's command, Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land, And guardian angels sang this strain;

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

The nations not so blest as thee, Shall in their turns to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free, The dread and envy of them all.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

Still mor majestic shalt thou rise, More dreadful from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies, Serves but to root thy native oak.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame, All their attempts to bend thee down;
Will but arouse thy generous flame, But work their woe, and thy renown.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

To thee belongs the rural reign, They cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject main, And every shore it circles thine.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

The Muses, still with freedom found, Shall to thy happy coast repair;
Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crowned, And manly hearts to guide the fair.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

I think this belongs in general.

I agree with you though, Britain needs to it's children how we ruled over the largest empire in the history of man...

That is just jingoistic nonsense.

ooc: Interesting, but definatly supposed to be in General, unless this is a part of an RP.

Oh, well - apologies for putting it in the wrong section. As for the person who put 'jingoistic nonsense', why? What do you think about YOUR country, hmm?

I'll ask the mods to move it...

I'll ask the mods to move it...

Thanks very much.

What a load of nationalistic bollocks.

I think it's good that he has a sense of patriotism. Great Britain is a fine nation, and it's people should be proud.

Perhaps the fact that, with the exception of the United States, Britain was never rejected by colonies, but had independence given to them when they wanted it, would have made the builders of Empire proud. No despotism a la France in Algeria, Belgium in the Congo, Portugal in Angola &c.

With you on the Federasts though.

Enough going-to-the-dogs-isms. Britain had to give up it's Empire. Deal with it. it was the best thing to do at the time. Stop bemoaning the loss of Imperial power; I very much doubt you were even alive when the Empire was in full swing.

Perhaps the fact that, with the exception of the United States, Britain was never rejected by colonies, but had independence given to them when they wanted it, would have made the builders of Empire proud. No despotism a la France in Algeria, Belgium in the Congo, Portugal in Angola &c.

With you on the Federasts though.
do try not to forget the Opium Wars. rather heinous bit of despotism, that.

I think it's good that he has a sense of patriotism. Great Britain is a fine nation, and it's people should be proud.
I didnt think you would ever say that commies :D ..but i agree :)

I didnt think you would ever say that commies :D ..but i agree :)
What the hell do you people think I am? Some kind of maniac who wants to exterminate everyone who's not American?

Perhaps the fact that, with the exception of the United States, Britain was never rejected by colonies, but had independence given to them when they wanted it, would have made the builders of Empire proud. No despotism a la France in Algeria, Belgium in the Congo, Portugal in Angola &c.

With you on the Federasts though.

You realize that's definitely NOT correct, right? India didn't ask "Oh please can we be independant?", they had to fight for it. Ghandi had to lead a peaceful rebellion and more than once British troops fired at unarmed civilians during it. How very generous.

Or what about the Boers?

Not to mention that first... they OCCUPIED those terretories by force. Just take the whole China incident and how the Europeans split it up in the end, and there was a lot of resistance against that inside China (of course China was defeated, since they didn't have the same military technology as the Europeans and the rest). Or the Opium War, the way how the UK got Hong Kong. Etc, etc, etc. Hong Kong was only given back because of a a treaty they had, not because the UK wanted to be nice. And finally, Hong Kong's back home.

The empire's dying? Perfect I say.

And this "In 1940, the Royal Air Force proved its supremacy over the skies, beating back the Nazi Luftwaffe with the best aeroplanes, the best training... and the best pilots. Were the Battle of Britain to occur again, British skies would fall, followed swiftly by the Emerald Isle herself." is bullshit.

Fact One: the earlier versions of the Me 109 were superior to the Hawker Hurricane and the Spit. Not to mention that the Japanese Zero was superior to any European plane of that time and even after that it remained better (only bested by things like the Corsair, Hellcat and, of course, the Mustang, which are American planes)

Fact Two: if the Germans would have continued bombing the airfields of the RAF in the south things would have gone a lot different (luckily, for the RAF, they stopped that and started bombing the cities, thus giving the RAF time to regroup and rearm)

Fact Three: German fighters and bombers only had a few minutes of combat time over London before running out of fuel. That also helps a lot.

Fact Four: They didn't have the best training, surely not. The best training back in 1940 had the IJNAF. Read Sakai's "Samurai! The rise and fall of the Japanese naval airforce" and you get the point of how the training of those pilots was.

Fact Five: The best pilots? Don't make me laugh. The leader of the RAF kill list, Sqd. Ldr. M.T. St. J. Pattle (south african btw), had 41 kills. The best American, Major Richard Bong USAAF, had 40 kills. The best German, Major Erich Hartmann, had 352 kills (and alltogether there are 105 German pilots with more than 100 aerial kills on western and eastern front). The best IJNAF pilot, Lt jg (posthumous) Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, aka "Devil of Rabaul", had some 87+ kills (Sakai came down on 64 aerial kills in the end).

I'm used to Americans spew such propaganda, but British... that's new... But then again, isn't the UK the largest USN aircraft carrier?

The line is will be slaves not shall.

You realize that's definitely NOT correct, right? India didn't ask "Oh please can we be independant?", they had to fight for it. Ghandi had to lead a peaceful rebellion and more than once British troops fired at unarmed civilians during it. How very generous.

Or what about the Boers?

Not to mention that first... they OCCUPIED those terretories by force. Just take the whole China incident and how the Europeans split it up in the end, and there was a lot of resistance against that inside China (of course China was defeated, since they didn't have the same military technology as the Europeans and the rest). Or the Opium War, the way how the UK got Hong Kong. Etc, etc, etc. Hong Kong was only given back because of a a treaty they had, not because the UK wanted to be nice. And finally, Hong Kong's back home.

The empire's dying? Perfect I say.

And this "In 1940, the Royal Air Force proved its supremacy over the skies, beating back the Nazi Luftwaffe with the best aeroplanes, the best training... and the best pilots. Were the Battle of Britain to occur again, British skies would fall, followed swiftly by the Emerald Isle herself." is bullshit.

Fact One: the earlier versions of the Me 109 were superior to the Hawker Hurricane and the Spit. Not to mention that the Japanese Zero was superior to any European plane of that time and even after that it remained better (only bested by things like the Corsair, Hellcat and, of course, the Mustang, which are American planes)

Fact Two: if the Germans would have continued bombing the airfields of the RAF in the south things would have gone a lot different (luckily, for the RAF, they stopped that and started bombing the cities, thus giving the RAF time to regroup and rearm)

Fact Three: German fighters and bombers only had a few minutes of combat time over London before running out of fuel. That also helps a lot.

Fact Four: They didn't have the best training, surely not. The best training back in 1940 had the IJNAF. Read Sakai's "Samurai! The rise and fall of the Japanese naval airforce" and you get the point of how the training of those pilots was.

Fact Five: The best pilots? Don't make me laugh. The leader of the RAF kill list, Sqd. Ldr. M.T. St. J. Pattle (south african btw), had 41 kills. The best American, Major Richard Bong USAAF, had 40 kills. The best German, Major Erich Hartmann, had 352 kills (and alltogether there are 105 German pilots with more than 100 aerial kills on western and eastern front). The best IJNAF pilot, Lt jg (posthumous) Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, aka "Devil of Rabaul", had some 87+ kills (Sakai came down on 64 aerial kills in the end).

I'm used to Americans spew such propaganda, but British... that's new... But then again, isn't the UK the largest USN aircraft carrier?



The British had to take the land by force, the locals were not gonna say "yeah sure, just come on in"

Also kills dont make the bst pilot jackass

And Hawker hurricanes didnt need a runway! and they were the main foce in the B.O.B

have you ever heard of the hawker typhoon or the spitfire mk21 ????
No?? because you need to read a history book perhaps??

Fact One: the earlier versions of the Me 109 were superior to the Hawker Hurricane and the Spit.

The Spitfire was invented after the Me 109, when the first Super marine Spitfire rolled off the production lines it was faster and handled better than a Me 109

"What do we need to win the war?"

"A squadron of Spitfires"

Quoted from a top german airman of 1942

Were the Battle of Britain to occur again, British skies would fall, followed swiftly by the Emerald Isle herself.

The Emerald Isle? What does Ireland have to do with the Battle of Britain? You do know that they were oficially neutral during WWII, don't you?

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.
It looks to me the British government loves to behave like a breed of pseudo slaves to the American government. Just how I look at this.

It looks to me the British government loves to behave like a breed of pseudo slaves to the American government. Just how I look at this.

nah, only the ones in power at the moment :)

It looks to me the British government loves to behave like a breed of pseudo slaves to the American government. Just how I look at this.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, waives the rules.

It looks to me the British government loves to behave like a breed of pseudo slaves to the American government. Just how I look at this.
I was just thinking the same.

-Snip-

Few realise the proportion of the world's populace that stood proudly beneath the Union Jack – why is this?

-Snip-


Two things:

1. Union flag. It's called the Union Flag. It's only the Jack, when flying from the Jack staff of an RN vessel.

2. Realise is the frenchified spelling, adopted to please the eurotrash. Realize, is the more traditional, and therefore more correct, spelling. It is also the spelling preferred by the oxford.

Our government wishes the great Imperial nation to be absorbed, struggling, into the Cancer that is the European Union.

Nice mixed metaphor. Surely, cancers spread into things, rather than absorbing them into themselves?

You realize that's definitely NOT correct, right? India didn't ask "Oh please can we be independant?", they had to fight for it. Ghandi had to lead a peaceful rebellion and more than once British troops fired at unarmed civilians during it. How very generous.

Or what about the Boers?

Not to mention that first... they OCCUPIED those terretories by force. Just take the whole China incident and how the Europeans split it up in the end, and there was a lot of resistance against that inside China (of course China was defeated, since they didn't have the same military technology as the Europeans and the rest). Or the Opium War, the way how the UK got Hong Kong. Etc, etc, etc. Hong Kong was only given back because of a a treaty they had, not because the UK wanted to be nice. And finally, Hong Kong's back home.

The empire's dying? Perfect I say.

And this "In 1940, the Royal Air Force proved its supremacy over the skies, beating back the Nazi Luftwaffe with the best aeroplanes, the best training... and the best pilots. Were the Battle of Britain to occur again, British skies would fall, followed swiftly by the Emerald Isle herself." is bullshit.

Fact One: the earlier versions of the Me 109 were superior to the Hawker Hurricane and the Spit. Not to mention that the Japanese Zero was superior to any European plane of that time and even after that it remained better (only bested by things like the Corsair, Hellcat and, of course, the Mustang, which are American planes)

Fact Two: if the Germans would have continued bombing the airfields of the RAF in the south things would have gone a lot different (luckily, for the RAF, they stopped that and started bombing the cities, thus giving the RAF time to regroup and rearm)

Fact Three: German fighters and bombers only had a few minutes of combat time over London before running out of fuel. That also helps a lot.

Fact Four: They didn't have the best training, surely not. The best training back in 1940 had the IJNAF. Read Sakai's "Samurai! The rise and fall of the Japanese naval airforce" and you get the point of how the training of those pilots was.

Fact Five: The best pilots? Don't make me laugh. The leader of the RAF kill list, Sqd. Ldr. M.T. St. J. Pattle (south african btw), had 41 kills. The best American, Major Richard Bong USAAF, had 40 kills. The best German, Major Erich Hartmann, had 352 kills (and alltogether there are 105 German pilots with more than 100 aerial kills on western and eastern front). The best IJNAF pilot, Lt jg (posthumous) Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, aka "Devil of Rabaul", had some 87+ kills (Sakai came down on 64 aerial kills in the end).

I'm used to Americans spew such propaganda, but British... that's new... But then again, isn't the UK the largest USN aircraft carrier?


There is a lot wrong with this. Not least of which is that the zero was an american design.

Also, you can't judge and air force by the highest number of pilot kills racked up to a single individual. Indeed, the german system which encouraged this far more than the RAF, may in fact have been detrimental to operational efficiency.

Japanese pilots were in fact overtrained - law of diminishing returns and all that.

The UK/US established air supremcy in all theaters, the axis never did. Thus the entirely reasonable claim that the RAF was a better force than the luftwaffe.

The Spitfire was better than the me-109. There is more to being a great fighter aircraft than straight line speed.

Don't underestimate the Hurricane, easy to fix, cheap to build, incredibly rugged. It was the aircraft that allowed the RAF to maintain an 2:1 kill ratio over the luftwaffe.

&.

Also, you can't judge and air force by the highest number of pilot kills racked up to a single individual. Indeed, the german system which encouraged this far more than the RAF, may in fact have been detrimental to operational efficiency.

The different national doctrines when it came to validating kill claims also play a part in these figures - the RAF required independent confirmation from other pilots before they would accredit a kill, whereas the Luftwaffe did not, and research has shown, IIRC, that many of their kill tallies exceeded the number of planes lost by the opposition as pilots inflated their claims either purposefully or by accidentally crediting the same kill to multiple pilots.

'Never Shall Be Slaves'
By James Humphreys - The Imperial Union of Britannic Colonies

Some years ago, I fell deeply in love with a very beautiful woman. She is dying now, but, in her past, she has accomplished more than you, I or anyone else could hope to achieve in a thousand lifetimes. Throughout her years, she has provided countless people with employment and safety. She assisted the oppressed, gave help to the needy, and protected those under her wing from all the evils the world could throw at her. She has stood as a guiding, hopeful light as she banished darkness from countless innocent lives. She has held power beyond any man's wildest dreams, instilled fairness, democracy and justice wherever she has stepped in her long life, graced the worlds skies with beautiful, graceful birds crafted by true artists, and stands tall as a symbol of freedom, despite the fact that she is weakening, dying, fast approaching powerless. Her name? Britannia.
Great Britannia. If our truly great ancestors knew where she stands now, they would spin in their graves. Great Britannia, who held a third of the world's surface, a quarter of its population, beneath her graceful wings, now ruled by other, unworthy nations herself. Great Britannia, who gave life to America, her child, and is now overshadowed by her creation. Great Britannia – Empress of Ireland, the British Commonwealth and the Great British Empire, the largest in history, now small and weak, ruled mainly by the monstrosity from across the English Channel. British Pound Sterling, the strongest monetary unit ever, on the brink of being absorbed by another.
Britain is truly dying. But not from any tangible, external threat. Like the mightiest of ancient Oaks, she is rotting from within. So many in our nation have no idea of the glory of the past – so many do not recognise the great names Victoria, Churchill, Nelson and Wellington. Few realise the proportion of the world's populace that stood proudly beneath the Union Jack – why is this?
For some, it is a lack of education. Governments have successively failed to place into the History curriculum the Glory of Imperial Britain, the victory over the darkness of Nazi Germany in the Second World War, and to teach how, in the nineteenth century, Britain truly ruled the waves. How can we expect our past to be passed on to our children if schools cannot tell the tale? It should be us to do this, but few do. Is this through Ignorance, a sign of a greater problem? Stupidity? Shame?
For there are now, in this time, people who are filled with shame and sorrow at our history. Our colonialist past – and the remnants of it that survive to the present. When did this injustice arise? The British Empire is not something to be ashamed of: Britain made the modern world. This ignorance of the past is both a symptom and a cause of the whole – the death of the great being from the roots upwards.
Another reason is the shameful state of our political system – our Constitution. The Palace of Westminster was once the powerhouse for the great overseas colonies – now it is merely speeding up our Nation's death. The traditional values, morals and protocols that made Great Britain great are slowly being eroded, strangling the nation in bureaucracy, red tape and the like. In modern times, London does not rule the world, the world rules London. Our government wishes the great Imperial nation to be absorbed, struggling, into the Cancer that is the European Union. Our leaders willingly allow our Errant child, America, to dictate our policies, priorities and military choices – as if we have a military left anyway.
There was a time when to be a British citizen presented immunity. Few dares to face our military might. When she was built, HMS Warrior only had to sail into a theatre of ocean warfare for the enemy to surrender. Now, the Royal Navy stands as a laughing-stock, feared by no-one.
There was a time when the British Army stood guard over the vast network of colonies we forged and ruled – now, it cannot successfully invade a single country without support. If Argentina were to invade the Falklands now, they would be lost.
In 1940, the Royal Air Force proved its supremacy over the skies, beating back the Nazi Luftwaffe with the best aeroplanes, the best training... and the best pilots. Were the Battle of Britain to occur again, British skies would fall, followed swiftly by the Emerald Isle herself.
It is this internal death that Britannia cannot cope with – the Empire was built on patriotism – belief in Great Britain by her own citizens and politicians. This sense of pride no longer exists. So please, listen to my plea. Look at our past, our glory, our power. Teach it to your children, grandchildren and proclaim that this is what should be so once more. Ask why it is not so now. Become proud of Britannia's past. Get to know her exploits, struggles, and conflicts won.
Britannia is dying. You can do something about it. Believe in your country, make it plain about your patriotism, pride, and knowledge of the glory of Imperial Britain.

Believe in Britannia, and she will rise again.

Great Britannia.

When Britain first at Heav'n's command, Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land, And guardian angels sang this strain;

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

The nations not so blest as thee, Shall in their turns to tyrants fall;
While thou shalt flourish great and free, The dread and envy of them all.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

Still mor majestic shalt thou rise, More dreadful from each foreign stroke;
As the loud blast that tears the skies, Serves but to root thy native oak.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame, All their attempts to bend thee down;
Will but arouse thy generous flame, But work their woe, and thy renown.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

To thee belongs the rural reign, They cities shall with commerce shine;
All thine shall be the subject main, And every shore it circles thine.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.

The Muses, still with freedom found, Shall to thy happy coast repair;
Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crowned, And manly hearts to guide the fair.

Rule, Britannia! Britannia, rule the waves; Britons never shall be slaves.


Do you realise it was actually nationalism that created the nation and not the other way round. Nations are essentially creations of mass media and certain sociocultural and economic factors. The concept was invented by Disraeli in resopnse to the individualism and social dislocation wrought by industrialisation, which was a threat to social cohesion, asopposed to pre-modern communities. This superiority you talk of seems to share facets with expansionist german nationalism, leading to hitler etc. We're better than the yanks and should take over india, zimbabwe and africa again.

The different national doctrines when it came to validating kill claims also play a part in these figures - the RAF required independent confirmation from other pilots before they would accredit a kill, whereas the Luftwaffe did not, and research has shown, IIRC, that many of their kill tallies exceeded the number of planes lost by the opposition as pilots inflated their claims either purposefully or by accidentally crediting the same kill to multiple pilots.

True that.

Edit: There is a lot you can attack the Brits for screwing up before WWII, but I hardly think metropolitian fighter command falls into that catagory. In any case a major reason why the battle of britian so "close" was because the UK left so much of the front line fighter strenght in france.

You realize that's definitely NOT correct, right? India didn't ask "Oh please can we be independant?", they had to fight for it. Ghandi had to lead a peaceful rebellion and more than once British troops fired at unarmed civilians during it. How very generous.

Or what about the Boers?

Not to mention that first... they OCCUPIED those terretories by force. Just take the whole China incident and how the Europeans split it up in the end, and there was a lot of resistance against that inside China (of course China was defeated, since they didn't have the same military technology as the Europeans and the rest). Or the Opium War, the way how the UK got Hong Kong. Etc, etc, etc. Hong Kong was only given back because of a a treaty they had, not because the UK wanted to be nice. And finally, Hong Kong's back home.

The empire's dying? Perfect I say.

And this "In 1940, the Royal Air Force proved its supremacy over the skies, beating back the Nazi Luftwaffe with the best aeroplanes, the best training... and the best pilots. Were the Battle of Britain to occur again, British skies would fall, followed swiftly by the Emerald Isle herself." is bullshit.

Fact One: the earlier versions of the Me 109 were superior to the Hawker Hurricane and the Spit. Not to mention that the Japanese Zero was superior to any European plane of that time and even after that it remained better (only bested by things like the Corsair, Hellcat and, of course, the Mustang, which are American planes)

Fact Two: if the Germans would have continued bombing the airfields of the RAF in the south things would have gone a lot different (luckily, for the RAF, they stopped that and started bombing the cities, thus giving the RAF time to regroup and rearm)

Fact Three: German fighters and bombers only had a few minutes of combat time over London before running out of fuel. That also helps a lot.

Fact Four: They didn't have the best training, surely not. The best training back in 1940 had the IJNAF. Read Sakai's "Samurai! The rise and fall of the Japanese naval airforce" and you get the point of how the training of those pilots was.

Fact Five: The best pilots? Don't make me laugh. The leader of the RAF kill list, Sqd. Ldr. M.T. St. J. Pattle (south african btw), had 41 kills. The best American, Major Richard Bong USAAF, had 40 kills. The best German, Major Erich Hartmann, had 352 kills (and alltogether there are 105 German pilots with more than 100 aerial kills on western and eastern front). The best IJNAF pilot, Lt jg (posthumous) Hiroyoshi Nishizawa, aka "Devil of Rabaul", had some 87+ kills (Sakai came down on 64 aerial kills in the end).

I'm used to Americans spew such propaganda, but British... that's new... But then again, isn't the UK the largest USN aircraft carrier?


Good points made. i would recommend the britannic person should read the audit of war by correlli barnett. The truth of the war is our economy was in absolute tatters and our industries were utterly inefficient in comparison to germany and the us. America basically funded our war with loans and free imports despite the bravery of the uk troops.

Probaly best to admire the rhetoric of churchill, but observe the realities of the war as it was.

also thats not true about argentina, the british army is actually better than argentina. they have an economy in ruin and we have the forth biggest in the world.

I hate this sort of nationalistic nonsense - it's a perfect example of Orwellian doublethink. You make use of the idea that we're one of the greatest nations on the planet..perhaps the greatest...and then go on to argue that our capitol is ruled by the rest of the world, that we're being absorbed by the European Union, and we would lose a Battle of Britain if it took place a second time around. Just how can we be great and useless at the same time??

We're better than the yanks and should take over india, zimbabwe and africa again.

'Zimbabwe and Africa'? Where is Zimbabwe again?

This kind of pining over empire really winds me up. Britannia is not 'dying'. The UK is the world's 4th largest economy, with a level of freedom and quality of life unsurpassed by the vast majority of the world population. Only one country on the planet could conceivably pose a threat to our national security, and even then they'd have a hard time of it.

Empires are so last millennium. We don't need or want one anymore. Let the rest of the world play at superpowers. We've had our turn, and did a better job of it than anyone else ever did, if you really must attach value to such things. Now that messy part of our history is gone, and good riddance.

Nimzonia..I couldn't agree with you more! We're a great nation and here we have someone whining over how weak we supposedly are!

Oh...and I bet the guy who started this thread was English :) They tend to get more worked up over the old Empire than Wales, Scotland or Ireland (Just to note, I'm Welsh myself).

Oh...and I bet the guy who started this thread was English :) They tend to get more worked up over the old Empire than Wales, Scotland or Ireland (Just to note, I'm Welsh myself).

Oh, the Irish certainly do get worked up about the British Empire, but in a somewhat different way...

Oh...and I bet the guy who started this thread was English :) They tend to get more worked up over the old Empire than Wales, Scotland or Ireland (Just to note, I'm Welsh myself).

Be fair. He was probably an english tory, realising that they're about to have a 3rd humiliating defeat in a row on thursday, and lashing out at any part of Britain that doesn't fit his narrow minded ideals of the British 'golden age'.

As far as I'm concerned, any decline in nationalism is probably a good thing. We need to recognise that it is people, not nations and governments, that matter. Governments are just a way of providing certain services and protecting our freedoms, and our loyalties should lie with fellow human beings (regardless of nationality) and not with states.

You realize that's definitely NOT correct, right? India didn't ask "Oh please can we be independant?", they had to fight for it. Ghandi had to lead a peaceful rebellion and more than once British troops fired at unarmed civilians during it. How very generous.

Or what about the Boers?

Not to mention that first... they OCCUPIED those terretories by force. Just take the whole China incident and how the Europeans split it up in the end, and there was a lot of resistance against that inside China (of course China was defeated, since they didn't have the same military technology as the Europeans and the rest). Or the Opium War, the way how the UK got Hong Kong. Etc, etc, etc. Hong Kong was only given back because of a a treaty they had, not because the UK wanted to be nice. And finally, Hong Kong's back home.
For empire creation, you're projecting today's values back 300 years or so. We've moved on a bit since then. Hence gradual withdrawal from empire, rather than desperately trying to cling on to it, when people became more enlightened about the "subjects" and realized that, yes, they have brains as well and are not some subspecies fit to be downtrodden.

The only bits of empire left are those that do not want independence. Democracy in action. Britain could have held on to the Indian subcontinent through force, but had no wish to do so. In fact, the withdrawal was too rapid, hence the Kashmiri problem today.

The Boers are not a good example, given what they did when they had independence.

bump

Good show orginal poster, damn good show. Revisionists still haven't got around to accepting that the world is better off having had a British Empire than it would have been without.

Good show orginal poster, damn good show. Revisionists still haven't got around to accepting that the world is better off having had a British Empire than it would have been without.
How would we know that though? maybe another empire would have stepped up to fill the void (maybe at a bit later date)
Without Brittan maybe someone like Spain or France would have filled in the role

We don’t know what the world would have been like without it , just because it accomplished certain good acts does not mean that the acts could never have been accomplished by anyone else
How would we know that though? maybe another empire would have stepped up to fill the void (maybe at a bit later date)
Without Brittan maybe someone like Spain or France would have filled in the role

We don’t know what the world would have been like without it , just because it accomplished certain good acts does not mean that the acts could never have been accomplished by anyone else

(not saying Britain was bad or good just saying we don’t really know if the “world is better off” hell we very well would have trouble describing an objective “better”)

How would we know that though? maybe another empire would have stepped up to fill the void (maybe at a bit later date)
Without Brittan maybe someone like Spain or France would have filled in the role

We don’t know what the world would have been like without it , just because it accomplished certain good acts does not mean that the acts could never have been accomplished by anyone else
How would we know that though? maybe another empire would have stepped up to fill the void (maybe at a bit later date)
Without Brittan maybe someone like Spain or France would have filled in the role

We don’t know what the world would have been like without it , just because it accomplished certain good acts does not mean that the acts could never have been accomplished by anyone else

(not saying Britain was bad or good just saying we don’t really know if the “world is better off” hell we very well would have trouble describing an objective “better”)

Ah yes. Consider the alternatives.

France, an empire who conscripted the occupants into the armed forces, something which Britain never actually did unless she were forced to introduce conscription into her own people.

Spain, whose economy was spent by the 1800s and would never have been able to match the huge investment that British government, British business and British industry pumped into the colonies, developing countries like India, Canada and Australia into the economic powerhouses they are today.

Germany, another Empire who forcibly conscripted the natives into its armed forces. Had their Empire remained until 1933, then Hitler would have been able to spread his madness to every corner of the globe.

Japan, whose actions against China and the occupied British territories quite amply shows what they thought of conquerored provinces - places for raping and enslaving people to work on their railways.

America, a country who practiced racial segregation in some states until the 1960s. Something that Britain, I am quite proud to say, never has done. Crimes of racial hatred have never been as big in Britain as they were were in America.

I think, considering the alternatives, the British Empire filled the void with relative justice and prosperity.

Yeah, because the British Empire is oh-so noble, isn't it? Yup, we never used racism...apart from the fact that we were the biggest user of slave labour the planet has ever seen. Oh and of course, we invented the concentration camp (we actually used it against the Boers). My gosh, we're practically Saints!

Look, I reckon Victorian Britain was great myself, but I am not proud of the country in which I live having a dark imperial history.

America, a country who practiced racial segregation in some states until the 1960s. Something that Britain, I am quite proud to say, never has done.

No, in Britain there were just signs saying 'No blacks, no dogs, no Irish' on the boarding houses instead. So much more civilised.