NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok Atheists believe that Christians are shoving our beliefs down their throats, but what about Atheists trying to change the Pledge of Allegiance is that not shoving their beliefs down our throats?

:rolleyes:

*chuckles*

Why do you avoid the question?

"under God" was not even in the ORIGINAL pledge, it was added during the Cold War. Why not remove it, it was a Cold War gimmick and now its over.

That'd be the case if they changed it to say "there is definitely NO God, and that anyone who says so is a silly billy." However, wanting to change it so it doesn't have christian phrases is not shoving an athiest "belief" down anyones throat.

"Under God" is ITSELF a revision of the Pledge, added to make you lot feel better about the Cold War and fighting 'those Godless commies'.

Be careful about who's shoving whose ideology down whose throat.

Then why could the people who do not believe just skip that part?

Why not take it out? It wasn't there originally and it is shoving a belief down my throat.
No soup for you!

Ok Atheists believe that Christians are shoving our beliefs down their throats, but what about Atheists trying to change the Pledge of Allegiance is that not shoving their beliefs down our throats?

Silly, silly, silly.

1) the Pledge current includes a gratuituos religious invocation - that is "shoving [your] beliefs down [others] throats"

2) removing it would make the Pledge neutral -- not favoring religion or nonreligion

3) Members of many religions object to the current wording of the Pledge

Ok heres another question when i do my Christian rants you guys complain but am i forcing you to read them? Then why do you?

because when Athiest complain and argue against God, it's "Freedom of Speech." when Christians try to spread the word of God, it's "Oppression of Ideas." and "Forcing our Views/Opinions on them"

and to the Pledge... how Many people against the "under God" actually say the Pledge?

Last thread you have people who refuse to say the pledge and still won't even if "Under God" was taken out. so my Question, if you refuse to say the Pledge, why would it matter to you what's in it?

Ok heres another question when i do my Christian rants you guys complain but am i forcing you to read them? Then why do you?
You are offering your opinion. You are not the State shoving beliefs down people's throat. The government should stay neutral in religious affairs. There is a differnce. :)

Then why could the people who do not believe just skip that part?

Would you be happy to 'just skip that part' if it was changed to say "Not under God"?

Ok heres another question when i do my Christian rants you guys complain but am i forcing you to read them? Then why do you?
I personaly don't read them, but I believe they are directed at us, so that is why most of us complain.

Ok heres another question when i do my Christian rants you guys complain but am i forcing you to read them? This is a forum, which typically invites debate. You start threads like "try and disprove the bible", then people come in and state their views/findings. You rarely if ever directly deal with a single post which disputes you, choosing instead to rant a little further. Sometimes just wildly quoting from the bible or vaguely threatening "unbelievers" with firey damnation.

We often complain about your posts/threads more often than not because they are poorly worded and your responses are often extremely lack-lustre.

No, you aren't "forcing" people to read them. We come here by choice, (not going to get into determinism), and deal with your threads. If you don't like how we do it. Well tough cookies.

Ok heres another question when i do my Christian rants you guys complain but am i forcing you to read them? Then why do you?

If I posted a rant about Christianity on one of your threads, I wouldn't be forcing you to read it.

Ok Atheists believe that Christians are shoving our beliefs down their throats, but what about Atheists trying to change the Pledge of Allegiance is that not shoving their beliefs down our throats?
no

its returning it to neutral.

There was a court case dealing with the pledge of allegiance and "under god". The prosicuter was saying that because he was an antheist, his daughter shoudn't have to say the pledge, but the parents were divorced. One was a devout christain and the other an atheist. I'm not sure the case ever got off the ground, so to speak. In my oppinion the "under god" should be taken out, and said only by christians. But that is my idea and the other side argues the same thing, why just not say it?, and the reason is historical presitent, for as it has already been said the under god was not added until after the cold war. If it were the other way around I would have to argree with the christian side, but it isn't.

because when Athiest complain and argue against God, it's "Freedom of Speech." when Christians try to spread the word of God, it's "Oppression of Ideas." and "Forcing our Views/Opinions on them"

Some people appear to misunderstand freedom of speech. So?

You are free to spread your religious views in the marketplace of ideas -- so long as you do not seek the aid of government. Others are free to disagree.

and to the Pledge... how Many people against the "under God" actually say the Pledge?

Last thread you have people who refuse to say the pledge and still won't even if "Under God" was taken out. so my Question, if you refuse to say the Pledge, why would it matter to you what's in it?

Meh.

OK.

Then let's change it to "one nation without God" and you just can refuse to say it.

And way to defend the religious liberty of those who do not say the Pledge because public pledges of any kind are contrary to their religion.

Ok Atheists believe that Christians are shoving our beliefs down their throats, but what about Atheists trying to change the Pledge of Allegiance is that not shoving their beliefs down our throats?
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
no
Is anyone trying to make you atheist by not including god?
Just because it doent say "under god" doenst mean that it HAS to be godless.
But if It does say god, then it cant be godless.

erm...

I'm a Brit,

who says the 'Pledge of Allegiance'?

Then let's change it to "one nation without God" and you just can refuse to say it.


Now, thats would be shoving our beleifs ( or lack of thereof) down your throats

There was a court case dealing with the pledge of allegiance and "under god". The prosicuter was saying that because he was an antheist, his daughter shoudn't have to say the pledge, but the parents were divorced. One was a devout christain and the other an atheist. I'm not sure the case ever got off the ground, so to speak. In my oppinion the "under god" should be taken out, and said only by christians. But that is my idea and the other side argues the same thing, why just not say it?, and the reason is historical presitent, for as it has already been said the under god was not added until after the cold war. If it were the other way around I would have to argree with the christian side, but it isn't.

The court case was Elk Grove Unified School District v. Michael A. Newdow, et al.

The US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit held (correctly) that the statute adding the phrase "under God" violated the First Amendment. Here (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/0016423p.pdf) is a copy of that decision. (Anyone who wishes to babble against the opinion had damn well better read it first!)

The US Supreme Court sidestepped the issue and ruled that the father lacked standing to bring the case. (Note: this was not a reversal of the reasoning of the Ninth Circuit and it relied primarily on facts and arguments not presented to the Ninth Circuit). Here (http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=02-1624) is a copy of the Supreme Court decision.

Some people appear to misunderstand freedom of speech. So?

You are free to spread your religious views in the marketplace of ideas -- so long as you do not seek the aid of government. Others are free to disagree.
yep... the only real restrictions should be good taste... keep it polite and eveyone can enjoy a good Debate.


Meh.

OK.

Then let's change it to "one nation without God" and you just can refuse to say it.if it came down to it, sure, I'll still say "Under God" because there will be no break in the momentum. now... you willing to put the Billions of Tax dollars aside to get this changed? I think such monies can be put to better use...

And way to defend the religious liberty of those who do not say the Pledge because public pledges of any kind are contrary to their religion.which brings back the point why care what's in something you don't say, or even rarely hear?

Ok Atheists believe that Christians are shoving our beliefs down their throats, but what about Atheists trying to change the Pledge of Allegiance is that not shoving their beliefs down our throats?

Well, First - the Pledge did not originally contain the "under God" phrasing.

Thus - those who wish to remove that part are ACTUALLY trying to undo the changes that others already made.

Second - the Pledge now contais reference to God, which is, conventionally, the 'god' of the Christian faith. Thus - those who corrupted the Pledge earlier have not only made it religious (when it was applicable to all, originally), but ALSO made it specific to just ONE religion.

Which contravenes the whole idea of Freedom to Worship.

Third - the Pledge is alliegance to the United States of America. 'God' is an extra detail that has no actual bearing on whether or not an individual is loyal to his/her nation.

Nationalism is too easily abused and wasted.
Take it out, you offend everyone that isn't Xtian. The cold war is over. And ever heard of seperation of church and state?

which brings back the point why care what's in something you don't say, or even rarely hear?
i dont care much about the pledge except where it is forced on school children. for kids of various faiths or lack there of to be forced to pledge allegiance to anything (certain christian sects forbid this) is wrong in itself, to force them to acknowlege "GOD" when they may not believe in said "GOD" is contrary to the constitution (in my extremely humble opinion)

i dont care much about the pledge except where it is forced on school children. for kids of various faiths or lack there of to be forced to pledge allegiance to anything (certain christian sects forbid this) is wrong in itself, to force them to acknowlege "GOD" when they may not believe in said "GOD" is contrary to the constitution (in my extremely humble opinion)but since it's no longer required to be said in school... infact any teacher forcing the students to say the Pledge will find him/herself infront of the school board and in some cases, sued and fired...

because when Athiest complain and argue against God, it's "Freedom of Speech." when Christians try to spread the word of God, it's "Oppression of Ideas." and "Forcing our Views/Opinions on them"


Atheists rarely argue against 'god'. More usually, they argue against the USE of 'god' by mortal powers. The United States is not (yet) a theocracy... the government is supposed to be OF THE PEOPLE... and that means ALL the people, not just those favouring one religion over another.

The Christian Right is trying to amend the laws of the USA (and has already a fair slew of laws favouring their philosophy) to match THEIR view of what the nation should be like. Those who oppose those laws are opposing being forced to live under a religious regime that they disagree with.

And the beauty of free-speech, and of democracy... is that they are allowed to.


and to the Pledge... how Many people against the "under God" actually say the Pledge?


Why would you suppose that there is any connection between patriotism and faith?


Last thread you have people who refuse to say the pledge and still won't even if "Under God" was taken out. so my Question, if you refuse to say the Pledge, why would it matter to you what's in it?

Those aren't the people to whom it matters, obviously. The people who oppose the "Under God" in the Pledge, are those who want to Pledge their alleigance to the nation, but NOT to one person's perception of divinity.

but since it's no longer required to be said in school... infact any teacher forcing the students to say the Pledge will find him/herself infront of the school board and in some cases, sued and fired...

Not true.

Not true.
Yes true, they still say it in schools, but the teachers can't make you say it.

no, that would be seperation of church and state. and its not just athiests, its your fellow christians, jews, muslims, pagans, agnostics (not to be confused with athiest) and many other people who believe in seperation of church and state.

"under God" was not even in the ORIGINAL pledge, it was added during the Cold War. Why not remove it, it was a Cold War gimmick and now its over.
thank u! thats the truth so hush your mouth and dont even try that "the found fathers" bs cause its NOT TRUE.

Then why could the people who do not believe just skip that part?

Oh, trust me -- I do skip it. I place my hand on my heart and say the rest of it because I have enough relatives in the military to want to do a tiny bit to support them on a consistent basis (as a teacher, it is consistent...). This allows me to avoid those obnoxious metallic ribbons and the constant battle over who supports the troops more. I certainly don't agree with everything the military does, and even less with what the Commander-In-Chief and his party does, but that does not diminish my respect for those fighting and dying in our armed forces at the behest of an oil-crazed lunatic. So I say the pledge and skip the superfluous part.

Something that was added for such a scurrilous and hysteria-fueled reason doesn't need to be in the pledge to align oneself with a nation nominally dedicated to freedom of (and/or from) worship. I daresay you might get a lot of those who don't say it at all now to say it again should "under God" be removed.

Ffc2, on the whole, I fully respect and even admire the way you support and defend your beliefs. You're clearly not a mindless believer and for that you should be praised. But this time you're essentially being a polite troll -- you knew this "question" was gonna draw the atheist zealots out in force. :headbang:

which brings back the point why care what's in something you don't say, or even rarely hear?

I'm a teacher. I hear it every workday.

I'm a teacher. I hear it every workday.I stand corrected. and do you force your students to say it? completely and uneditied?

Edited: when I was in Elementary School, it became optional when I was in the 3rd grade. about a year later, no one said it.

do school children have to say it every day?

but since it's no longer required to be said in school... infact any teacher forcing the students to say the Pledge will find him/herself infront of the school board and in some cases, sued and fired...

Normally I respect your arguments, Nekone. This one, however, is a howler because each state -- hell, each school district -- has their own policy on the pledge. What you posted MIGHT be true in the district you are/were in, but that's certainly not the case nationwide.

Come on, you can argue better than that.

No wonder the world laughs at us, we make children take the pledge of alegience..how opressive can you get?

I stand corrected. and do you force your students to say it? completely and uneditied?

Edited: when I was in Elementary School, it became optional when I was in the 3rd grade. about a year later, no one said it.

I, personally, do not force my students to say it (forcing a high school student to do anything is already nigh impossible). But my administration comes over the air every morning and says "please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance." I say it without the "under God" to the occasional glare from a student or six, but I say it because of the reasons I posted earlier.

It is expected that everyone will rise. When some do not, I do nothing because unlike many administrators and school board fixtures, I do NOT believe the Constitution stops at the door to the school. Other teachers, however, become apoplectic at anything they perceive as disrespectful. The students in those classes tell me that they say it just to keep them from going off about it.

That may not be overt force, but it does smack of coercion.

dear god people, what are you doing to your country?

You wonder why we look down on you from across the pond, when you force your children to pledge allegiance to a flag?

Normally I respect your arguments, Nekone. This one, however, is a howler because each state -- hell, each school district -- has their own policy on the pledge. What you posted MIGHT be true in the district you are/were in, but that's certainly not the case nationwide.

Come on, you can argue better than that.

OK.

Nekone is wrong in thinking that children are never pressured by authorities to say the Pledge or that the Pledge is not regularly said in schools.

Nekone is right, however, that children cannot legally be required to say the Pledge. See, e.g., West Virginia State Bd. of Educ. v. Barnette (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/319/624.html ), 319 U.S. 624 (1943).

Ok Atheists believe that Christians are shoving our beliefs down their throats, but what about Atheists trying to change the Pledge of Allegiance is that not shoving their beliefs down our throats?

Your an idiot.

We're not shoving our beliefs down your throat, we're stoping you from doing it to us.

Ok Atheists believe that Christians are shoving our beliefs down their throats, but what about Atheists trying to change the Pledge of Allegiance is that not shoving their beliefs down our throats?

I'm an atheist and I couldn't care less about your pledge of allegiance. :)

OK.

Nekone is wrong in thinking that children are never pressured by authorities to say the Pledge or that the Pledge is not regularly said in schools.

Nekone is right, however, that children cannot legally be required to say the Pledge. See, e.g., West Virginia State Bd. of Educ. v. Barnette (http://laws.findlaw.com/us/319/624.html ), 319 U.S. 624 (1943).

AGREED! And damn fine sleuthing, too C-T.

But this precedent is essentially unenforceable. What has been decided on high is only followed in and among school districts if there are enough parents with the clout, money and lawyers or (time, ability and desire to alienate themselves if they go the ACLU route) to make sure the school boards and principals follow the letter of the law. Many can, most cannot.

I, personally, do not force my students to say it (forcing a high school student to do anything is already nigh impossible). But my administration comes over the air every morning and says "please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance." I say it without the "under God" to the occasionaly glare from a student or six, but I say it because of the reasons I posted earlier.

It is expected that everyone will rise. When some do not, I do nothing because unlike many administrators and school board fixtures, I do NOT believe the Constitution stops at the door to the school. Other teachers, however, become apoplectic at anything they perceive as disrespectful. The students in those classes tell me that they say it just to keep them from going off about it.

That may not me overt force, but it does smack of coercion.That's pretty much what happened in my school... it got to the point where the Teacher would ask who would like to say the Pledge and it just ended up not asking and not saying.

Do miss the Pledge tho. I've always felt it an affirmation to love of country. a show of appreciation for what our Forefathers had to do to win free of Tyranny and Oppression.

Your an idiot.

We're not shoving our beliefs down your throat, we're stoping you from doing it to us.

Not only is that a flame, it's misspelled. Bad form.

Not only is that a flame, it's misspelled. Bad form.

Sorry.

Do miss the Pledge tho. I've always felt it an affirmation to love of country. a show of appreciation for what our Forefathers had to do to win free of Tyranny and Oppression.

Now THAT's a great reason to say the Pledge. You should keep saying it -- screw what others think.

No wonder the world laughs at us, we make children take the pledge of alegience..how opressive can you get?

bump

The Pledge of Allegiance is a poem consisting of five lines which have 9,11,10,11,9 making the American version of a haiku so if you want to take out 'under God' you will have to add another three syllables. While you are at it just take out out indivisible anyways, this is OBVIOUSLY dividing people. Then you are missing eight syllables. I suggest:

I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag
Of The United States of America
And to the Rebuplic for which it stands
One Nation with a monkey for a leader
With Liberty and Justice for most

Not everyone has liberty even or justice so why leave that in? Rapes go unreported all the time (lack of Justice) and the ones who do get reported the rapists loses his Liberty.

Hell, just leave it in. A pledge of allegiance is already a simple lot of patriotic nonsense, so you might as well add in religion as well to get that full medieval feel. Why not declare Bush to be the God-King too?

Hell, just leave it in. A pledge of allegiance is already a simple lot of patriotic nonsense, so you might as well add in religion as well to get that full medieval feel. Why not declare Bush to be the God-King too?

Dude you rock :D

AGREED! And damn fine sleuthing, too C-T.

But this precedent is essentially unenforceable. What has been decided on high is only followed in and among school districts if there are enough parents with the clout, money and lawyers or (time, ability and desire to alienate themselves if they go the ACLU route) to make sure the school boards and principals follow the letter of the law. Many can, most cannot.

Agreed. I happen to have grown up in a community where students were routinely punished for not saying the Pledge.

There was also school-led prayer. Occasionally someone would try to challenge it. Even when the names were kept anonymous except to the lawyers, word would leak out. 1 family "happened" to have their house burn down.

That's pretty much what happened in my school... it got to the point where the Teacher would ask who would like to say the Pledge and it just ended up not asking and not saying.

Do miss the Pledge tho. I've always felt it an affirmation to love of country. a show of appreciation for what our Forefathers had to do to win free of Tyranny and Oppression.

Feel free to say the Pledge anytime you feel like it.

But don't expect others to do so.

That is what freedom from Tyranny and Oppression is all about.

Agreed. I happen to have grown up in a community where students were routinely punished for not saying the Pledge.

There was also school-led prayer. Occasionally someone would try to challenge it. Even when the names were kept anonymous except to the lawyers, word would leak out. 1 family "happened" to have their house burn down.Ouch dude... that really sucks.

Feel free to say the Pledge anytime you feel like it.

But don't expect others to do so.

That is what freedom from Tyranny and Oppression is all about.Actually I don't expect others to do so. Because that is what freedom's about. :D

C-T - Did anyone figure out who did it?
If so, the firefighters should have gotten a bit of a workout.

C-T - Did anyone figure out who did it?
If so, the firefighters should have gotten a bit of a workout.

Not to my knowledge -- I'm quite sure they did not.

This was just one example of things that routinely happened to the few people that did try to bring a lawsuit.

Small rural communities with little respect for separation of Church and State don't tend to respect a lot of rights.

So what do atheists want? "Under Government"? Because I garuntee you, God or no God anything is better than government.

I have a question, why do athesists and people who don't believe in God (I know they are the same but just closing the loopholes) say oh my god or omg or something along those lines since they do not believe in a god(dess)?

I have a question, why do athesists and people who don't believe in God (I know they are the same but just closing the loopholes) say oh my god or omg or something along those lines since they do not believe in a god(dess)?

i personnaly dont because i have trained my self not to, like saying "you know what i mean?" at the end of most sentences

i personnaly dont because i have trained my self not to, like saying "you know what i mean?" at the end of most sentences

Most atheists I know say that, Jesus (used in same context) and other things atheists dont believe in. I find it funny.

So what do atheists want? "Under Government"?

How about liberty instead of prefunctory loyalty oath?

But if you insist on a mindless ritual that most children act out without knowing the words, how about the original pledge before it was amended by zealots:

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.


Because I garuntee you, God or no God anything is better than government.

Cute.

Slavery is worse.

The state of nature is worse.

Theocracy is worse.

A constitutional Republic is a fine thing. Why do support the Pledge, but hate the Republic for which the Flag stands and Pledge is to?

I have a question, why do athesists and people who don't believe in God (I know they are the same but just closing the loopholes) say oh my god or omg or something along those lines since they do not believe in a god(dess)?

'Cuz you Puritans hyperventilate if we say a swear word.

EDIT:
1. Of course, I like saying Jesus F*ing Christ and similar phrases just to see the Puritans hyperventilate. :D

2. I prefer a phrase I learned in these forums. (I think it was from someone whose name starts with K and rhymes with Deruvalia.) Anyway: "Oh fuckmonkey!"

Replace "God" with "Yo Mama" in the pledge and everybody wins!

Replace "God" with "Yo Mama" in the pledge and everybody wins!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Most atheists I know say that, Jesus (used in same context) and other things atheists dont believe in. I find it funny.
Why ? most of us are indoctronated into the faith from birth we may loose our faith but manarisms hold on

Such is the human beast

I have a question, why do athesists and people who don't believe in God (I know they are the same but just closing the loopholes) say oh my god or omg or something along those lines since they do not believe in a god(dess)?

I'm an atheist and i frequently use 'Jesus Christ' or 'oh god' as exclamations. Its not a concious thing i decided to do, its just somthing i started doing a while ago. They are not special words and mean about as much to me as the four letter words generally uttered in similair circumstances. I could make a concious effort to stop saying them but whats the point?

I'm an atheist and i frequently use 'Jesus Christ' or 'oh god' as exclamations. Its not a concious thing i decided to do, its just somthing i started doing a while ago. They are not special words and mean about as much to me as the four letter words generally uttered in similair circumstances. I could make a concious effort to stop saying them but whats the point?
Exactly ... its like having to believe in the word fuck to say it lol