NationStates Jolt Archive

everyone abortion is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortion it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's feelings are about this.evryone its just one mistake gosh dont critisize people just the way we write everyone makes a mistake once in a while gosh just because we learned it in 2nd grade doesnt mean that we have to be perfect on every single word.

everyone abortian is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortian it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's fellings are about this.
that is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. jus like everyone is entitled to agree or disagree with it. we are for abortion, so long as the person is given information on alternatives such as adoption. and two pieces of advice:
1) you should copy/paste your repeal here, if you have one in draft/proposals-repeals que
2) this one has come up over and over again, and has failed everytime. whilst we arent against discusion, can you please let this one die?

One: It's abortion, not abortian.
Two: People will not accept a proposal with grammar and spelling like that. Proven Fact.
Three: You need a better argument than, "I don't like it. It's wrong. It's disgusting".
Four: Outlawing abortion has been tried many times before and never passed.
Five: Welcome to NationStates. Enjoy your stay!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/frisbeeteria/moved_sm.jpg UN to General.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/frisbeeteria/moved_sm.jpg UN to General.
Uhh, why didn't you delete this crap instead of moving it over here?

Why was this moved? It seemed like a U.N. proposal to me. Oh Well.

I feel that abortion is O.K in cases like rape and other such situations, but if it's just, "No. I changed my mind. I don't feel like having a kid, if that's O.K," it disgusts me.

Uhh, why didn't you delete this crap instead of moving it over here?
consider it someones learning experience and ignore it. as for nicolette, i don't like harping on grammar and spelling, but a little more care and attention towards your punctuation would make any point you try to make more readable, and easier to understand. it is necessary, if you want your debates to go anywhere, for all parties to understand each other. had you added any complexity to your thought, such as evidence, or rationale of any kind, it would have been rendered unreadable given it's current state. welcome to nationstates. you can just ignore the other boards. general is where it's at.

Oh yes, Is it that time of the Month again? As unpleasant as a womans inevitable time of womb regeneration, the Abortion issue pops up for yet another go!
I am sorry my friend. I have tried to think of something which will aid your cause here, however as my nation is for the Right of an impregnated being to choose to abort within a time period of 1 tenth of the estimated gestation time of the embryo, we cant and wont support any Anti abortion measures raised here.

as a n00b i will not give the thread a DLEBR as i actually gave it some thought for at least 5 minutes!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/frisbeeteria/moved_sm.jpg UN to General.
Moved? Just nuke the bloody thread!

I know something about ten thousand times worse than abortion.


Abortion threads
(^highlight for answer)

yes these are a menace to society and must be stopped. Whose with me?

I agree, I think abortion is wrong and murderous. Babies are God's creation, even if they were created by rape or something like that, and they don't deserve to die. At least put them up for adoption if you don't want them!

I think my IQ has just halved

I wouldnt worry!
Half of nothing is still nothing! :p

everyone abortian is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortian it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's fellings are about this.

Hooray. Just what this forum needs. Another grammar-devoid abortion troll.

I wouldnt worry!
Half of nothing is still nothing! :p
:p

Hooray. Just what this forum needs. Another grammar-devoid abortion troll.
Yay, let's throw a party over it.
http://www.surtohype.com/mazinha/imagens/rave.jpg

everyone abortian is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortian it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's fellings are about this.

It's called punctuation. You should've learned it in grade 2, if you had passed.

Anyways, my philosophy on the issue:


If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Leave everyone else alone.

There you go. Big Ominous Voice said it.

I'm against abortion. But for all I know, abortian might be perfectly fine![/SpellingNazi]

Yay, let's throw a party over it.
http://www.surtohype.com/mazinha/imagens/rave.jpg

I got some nice Goa Trance to listen to! *passes around glow sticks*

Damnit, it just changed to Jimi Hendrix. Meh, *passes around LSD* ^.^

I know something about ten thousand times worse than abortion.


Abortion threads
(^highlight for answer)

yes these are a menace to society and must be stopped. Whose with me?
*sniffle*

Fine then, I'll go after him by myself!

*runs off and trips on a rock*

I got some nice Goa Trance to listen to! *passes around glow sticks*

Aw mang, you trippin out mah head!

*sniffle*

Fine then, I'll go after him by myself!

*runs off and trips on a rock*

I'm with you! *hands Nation of Fortune a tissue*

I'm with you! *hands Nation of Fortune a tissue*
YAY! and thanks

YAY! and thanks

Any time. Need a band-aid too? ^.^

Any time. Need a band-aid too? ^.^
I'm fine, thanks anyway though

<sarcasm>
abortian threads are wrong and we should stop them now because i think they are stupid annoying and !!!11one therefore, they must be stopped!!!!!111shift+one </sarcasm>

Good god. Do we really need another abortion discussion?
As for my thoughts on the [i]original issue ( :rolleyes: ), see Big Ominous Voice's post.

Oh, and way to base an argument solely on personal opinion rather than fact.

You may think abortion is wrong, don't do it then. Everyone else can do what they want, they are entitled to their opinions too.
I think so long as, the person gets councelling, shown the other options, and talks to someone who is against abortion and hear their point of veiw and why I think abortion should be legal. So long as it's not right before birth.

Hm.

As much as I am against abortion, I see no reason to attack people for it. That's really going to make them change their mind.

:rolleyes:

How about them gas prices?

Abortion is up to the doctork, and should be advised against. But if the patient wants it, so be it.

How about them gas prices?

The gas prices no longer bear the cost of an arm or a leg - more accurately, the prices are beginning to reach the "ribcage" area (for regular unleaded).

For anyone who doesn't get the reference:
Click Here (http://www.justasimpleonlinenerd.com/images/gas-prices.jpg)

:p That picture is awesome. And terribly true.

S'posed to get up $3 here in So Cal. Uggggggh.

Time to get a Hybrid, I guess. :headbang:

You know what I support? FREEDOM OF CHOICE. I'm a republican supporter but I still support Gay Marriage. I support abortion. You can smoke pot for all I care as long as you don't smoke it near me. I don't support stupid things like selling drugs. What right is yours to get someone hooked on something that can kill them? It's first-degree murder in my opinion.

Abortion isn't wrong, however in any case. If I had the choice of abortion or leaving the kid for adoption I'd choose abortion because I wouldn't want my kid to have the risk of becoming an addict or worse, a seller. Hopefully it wouldn't come down to it, but making it illegal is unconstitutional because it prevents people from having a choice.

Ok, so say you hate abortions... don't have have one. I don't see where you people get off trying to enforce your religious idealogies on other people. Does Seperation of Church and State ring a bell to any of you out there???

The gas prices no longer bear the cost of an arm or a leg - more accurately, the prices are beginning to reach the "ribcage" area (for regular unleaded).

For anyone who doesn't get the reference:
Click Here (http://www.justasimpleonlinenerd.com/images/gas-prices.jpg)

My local station is now accepting pint's of virgin blood as payment.

Abortion isn't wrong, however in any case. If I had the choice of abortion or leaving the kid for adoption I'd choose abortion because I wouldn't want my kid to have the risk of becoming an addict or worse, a seller.

I don't get that opinion... Honestly, you have no idea how that child is going to fare. You ASSUME that they're going to have the worst life imaginable, when I've seen many adopted kids come out very well. You don't give a child the chance. Yes, it is your decision as to whether or not you kill it, but I'd like to think there's a better reason as to why you would kill it.

Perhaps a family member could take care of it.

Perhaps you could've used birth control.

I see how rape could make abortion seem logical, but just as much as you couldn't help getting raped, the baby couldn't help being created.

*shrug*

I think it's a matter of selfishness. If you're going to risk that by having sex, then you should be prepared for the consequences.

What great satire this would make.

*sigh*

S'pose it's like beating a dead horse. Eh, I'm done.

I don't get that opinion... Honestly, you have no idea how that child is going to fare. You ASSUME that they're going to have the worst life imaginable, when I've seen many adopted kids come out very well. You don't give a child the chance. Yes, it is your decision as to whether or not you kill it, but I'd like to think there's a better reason as to why you would kill it.

Perhaps a family member could take care of it.

Perhaps you could've used birth control.

I see how rape could make abortion seem logical, but just as much as you couldn't help getting raped, the baby couldn't help being created.

*shrug*

I think it's a matter of selfishness. If you're going to risk that by having sex, then you should be prepared for the consequences.
But that's the power of choice. You don't HAVE to face the consequences. That's why we have all these damn rights in teh first place.

It's people's lives. It disgust me too I'll admite, but I'm not about to tell someone they can't do something that's legal I'll add because I have an issue with it when it's not my business. If they want to have one, all the more power to them. Y'all who are against it just need to mind y'alls on business.

But that's the power of choice. You don't HAVE to face the consequences. That's why we have all these damn rights in teh first place.
I don't know, Oceania sounds pretty good to me.

Australi? Aren't they in a drought? (Australia IS in Oceania.)

Australi? Aren't they in a drought? (Australia IS in Oceania.)
Oceania as in the fictional country in 1984.

It's people's lives. It disgust me too I'll admite, but I'm not about to tell someone they can't do something that's legal I'll add because I have an issue with it when it's not my business. If they want to have one, all the more power to them. Y'all who are against it just need to mind y'alls on business.

http://www.feuerwher.de/forum/troll.jpg

And what happened to my glow stick party? Did the cops crash it again? >.>

Oceania as in the fictional country in 1984.
Oh. I alwyas thought it was a region of the world.

Anyway, I like this quote supporting Abortion AND Stem Cell research in the no Mutants Allowed forum:
Stem Cells are a valuable research commodity, some day they may be able to use them to replace the lungs i currently enjoy destroying with cigarettes, and the liver i will return to destroying as soon as i get back someplace where i can drink again.



As far as the ethical considerations goes, it's not like those aborted fetus's are useing em for anything. We might as well put them to good use. And as for the whole "abortion unethical" thing. Got two words, grow up. People arent going to stop haveing sex when they know they cant handle children, or arent ready for them. so Abortion is going to happen weather people like it or not.

If you can cure diseases by useing the cell's from a fetus that some harlot aborted, use the cells, That unborn child will have contributed more to the human race than millions of people who, in all fairness, should have been blowjobs to begin with.

Thats my 1.8 cents.

Elissar - For a transcript of this post, please send $5 USD and a SASE to Elissar C/O The Order
No Mutants Allowed (http://www.nma-fallout.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13562)

look everyone as you know i am the one who started this and just beacuse you get pregnant doesnt mean that you have to kill the baby it has a right just like every one of us the fetus has a right to live instead of being destroyed by a machine that sucks the life out of the fetus.Like some people on here they think the baby doesnt have a voice in this, but it has the loudest voice of all. you can just give it to a nice deserving family that the mother decides to give the baby too.in fact the mother can decide who she can give it too instead of fealing all the guilt by killing it with a machine!

everyone abortion is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortion it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's feelings are about this.evryone its just one mistake gosh dont critisize people just the way we write everyone makes a mistake once in a while gosh just because we learned it in 2nd grade doesnt mean that we have to be perfect on every single word.

You use the longest sentences I've ever seen, therefore you must be right.

everyone abortion is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortion it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's feelings are about this.evryone its just one mistake gosh dont critisize people just the way we write everyone makes a mistake once in a while gosh just because we learned it in 2nd grade doesnt mean that we have to be perfect on every single word.
Yeah?

Don't want an abortion? Don't have one.

Stay out of the uterus of every other woman, ok?

If you're going to argue this issue, please at least spell with a 6th grade level. Most people who have abortions usually don't see anything wrong with it and thus wouldn't feel guilty.

I said before I'm not thrilled with it either but don't be niave. Your opinion that you can't argue to well by the way won't change how things work that are none of your business.

If you're going to argue this issue, please at least spell with a 6th grade level. Most people who have abortions usually don't see anything wrong with it and thus wouldn't feel guilty.

I said before I'm not thrilled with it either but don't be niave. Your opinion that you can't argue to well by the way won't change how things work that are none of your business.
Hmm... should I point out the irony of the spelling commentary in your post and the glaring error you made?

No, I'm good thanks :D

I'll proof read next time

To make this easier, I will comment on each point, rather than each sentence, even though each point should probably be its own sentence...

just beacuse you get pregnant doesnt mean that you have to kill the baby
There is no "baby" until it exits the womb alive. There is a potential baby, a fetus, an embryo, that is all. And really, if you think it's as simple as "OMG, I'm pregnant, must kill baby" then you really shouldn't even bother trying to participate in this discussion, as that is sheer idiocy.

it has a right just like every one of us the fetus has a right to live instead of being destroyed by a machine that sucks the life out of the fetus.
Machine? What the hell are you talking about? I sure as hell hope you're not talking about so-called partial birth abortions, which are only legally allowed to save the life or health of a woman. I mean, if that's what you were getting at, then that would just make you ignorant. Otherwise, I thought there was some scalpel action and no real machine involvement...
As for the "right to life" question, well, not only does that involve the question as to whether any of us has the "right" to life, but it also involves a definition for the beginning of life. If I define the beginning of a human life to be the start of brain activity, then that means that a fetus isn't alive until 20 weeks in.

Like some people on here they think the baby doesnt have a voice in this, but it has the loudest voice of all. you can just give it to a nice deserving family that the mother decides to give the baby too.
1. there are no babies involved in abortion, please use the correct terminology.
2. It is the woman's body that the fetus has taken up residence in. If she does not want her uterus to be occupied, then she has the right to remove it. To say otherwise is tantamount to slavery.

in fact the mother can decide who she can give it too instead of fealing all the guilt by killing it with a machine!
Please, learn to use the proper homonyms, it aids in understanding greatly.

The embryo is not the same as a person. Get over it.

Yeah?

Don't want an abortion? Don't have one.

Stay out of the uterus of every other woman, ok?

Tell that to the baby.



1. there are no babies involved in abortion, please use the correct terminology.



ba·by
n. pl. ba·bies

An unborn child; a fetus.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Also, please view http://www.wealth4freedom.com/wns/holdinghands.htm

If modern couch-potato society has forced you to a level at which you cannot be bothered to click a link, I can only hope you can also not be bothered to eat or move.

Also, oftentimes, yes, it is "OMG I'm pregnant must kill baby." A girl at my college 2 years back had a baby in her bathtub, threw it in a dumpster behind the house she lived in and it was found 3 days later frozen to death. Of course, that's not an abortion, but it's still an example of giving up responsibility, ending the life of a possible human being.
Really, at one day, what's a life worth, anyway? Hell, she was probably drunk a lot, it might've been a re-re anyway, so she must've done it a favor letting it starve and freeze to death. I'd love to find a news report on it, but I can't.

Also, anyone on Nationstates who hasn't read 1984 makes me cry.

"FREEDOM OF CHOICE"

Yes, well, if I choose to drive recklessly and you die, isn't that just special.
Yes, well, if I choose to smoke and my son dies of lung cancer, isn't that just special.

I believe in "responsibility." Get knocked up? DEAL WITH IT!
Man won't pay for child support? Throw the SoB in jail.

Also, adoption is easy enough. Nobody just wants to get looked at differently. Abortion is all about saving face so you don't look bad.

"I don't see where you people get off trying to enforce your religious idealogies on other people. Does Seperation of Church and State ring a bell to any of you out there???"

Mmm, yeah. I would quote you, but I don't want to give you the shame to be attributed to that piece of trash. Yeahhhh. About that. Seperation of Church and State was originally created and designed(as if it's a car-Such terms for an ideology!) to protect CHURCH from STATE. The State does not tell you how to worship.

Do I see you complaining about the Mormons in their early history?

What if I say God showed me a vision that blacks are supposed to be slaves?

What if I believe I should get to smoke pot and eat babies, and write religious texts on it.

Well, the State would disagree. And they would be within their right. Unfortunately, due to the fact that people are completely UNREASONABLE, the State has to make moral decisions. The idea that I may avoid all responsibility for my actions by making some girl I knocked up get an abortion(there is such legislation in consideration-Again, go look it up yourself, I'm not your mommy) is absurd. Of course, what if we wanted the baby and then she gets nervous and makes a bad decision.
She could regret it in four months.

What then?

You guys are all such slippery slopists-On both sides. "IF THIS HAPPENS THEN EVERYTHING WILL BE BAD!" Show some freakin' evidence of that possibility. All I know is that almost nobody wants to pay for their actions anymore.
EVERYONE is all for "Freedom of Choice" and all against "Responsibility."

Wow. I think that pretty much sums up everything. Incredible argument.

everyone abortion is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortion it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's feelings are about this.evryone its just one mistake gosh dont critisize people just the way we write everyone makes a mistake once in a while gosh just because we learned it in 2nd grade doesnt mean that we have to be perfect on every single word.
I am personally opposed to having an abortion, so I won't be having one. However, I am pro-choice, because I think that there is more to the abortion decision than what is convenient to the woman.
To outlaw abortion, you have to examine why women have abortions. There are economic reasons. Children are an expensive responsibility, and I know women who have had to go without food to raise children on their own, even in this westernised country that I live in. There are medical reasons, such as those that threaten the life of the woman carrying the child. There are questions about raising a child with a disability, or a terminal illness, and being able to give them a life free of pain. There are probably many other reasons, and I think the abortion decision must be applied to the merits of each case.
Outlawing abortion doesn't make abortion go away. People in desperate circumstances still break the law. If doctors cannot provide abortions for women, those women will subject themselves to risky procedures at the hands of people with no qualification, and therefore no accountability if something goes wrong. To rule out abortion may save a proportion of babies, but will inevitably lead to the death of babies aborted by illegal means, and potentially the death of their mothers as well. While Pro-life standpoints have to argue for the child that can't protect itself, it also must respect the life of the mother, whose circumstances may be desperate. Abortion isn't something a woman approaches willy-nilly. It's an intensley horrific experience, and one that should be examined stringently before a decision is made.
If you want to reduce abortions, then you must propose solutions for the factors that precipitate abortion. Be prepared to adopt someone's child. Be prepared to economically support a single mother so that she can continue an education. Be prepared to assist in the emotional healing of a woman subjected to rape. Be prepared to assist in the palliative care of a baby with a terminal illness, or the support of a child with a disability. Stand by your beliefs with ACTION, not just emotive rhetoric.

Incredibly moronic, but what do you expect on an internet board these days. Heck, every idiot has a computer now...

To outlaw abortion, you have to examine why women have abortions. There are economic reasons. Children are an expensive responsibility, and I know women who have had to go without food to raise children on their own, even in this westernised country that I live in.

Oh my God, think of someone other than yourself, people!

Oops...sorry Boodicka; you snuck in while I wasn't looking!

**

In the future you might try being coherent and making an actual point.


Tell that to the baby.

Cute. Of course, almost all abortions -- and essentially all elective abortions -- occur long before the baby is capable of consciousness. So, it won't understand anymore than my toenail clippings would.


*snip*

Also, please view http://www.wealth4freedom.com/wns/holdinghands.htm

How utterly irrelevant.

Assuming the picture and story are genuine -- it involves a very late term fetus -- at least 21 weeks old.

Less that 1.4% of abortions in the US occur at this point or later in the pregnancy.

In fact, at about this point abortion is illegal in the United States except when necessary for the life or health of the mother (or, in a few states, other extreme circumstances like severe fetal abnormalities).

So, your picture is at best a red herring.

My guess is that it is also fraudulent. But, as it does not matter, I won't waste my time on it.


Also, oftentimes, yes, it is "OMG I'm pregnant must kill baby." A girl at my college 2 years back had a baby in her bathtub, threw it in a dumpster behind the house she lived in and it was found 3 days later frozen to death. Of course, that's not an abortion, but it's still an example of giving up responsibility, ending the life of a possible human being.
Really, at one day, what's a life worth, anyway? Hell, she was probably drunk a lot, it might've been a re-re anyway, so she must've done it a favor letting it starve and freeze to death. I'd love to find a news report on it, but I can't.

Another red herring.

As you admit, that has nothing whatsoever to do with abortion.


"FREEDOM OF CHOICE"

Yes, well, if I choose to drive recklessly and you die, isn't that just special.
Yes, well, if I choose to smoke and my son dies of lung cancer, isn't that just special.

Yet another fallacy.

Driving recklessly is a crime.

Causing harm to another sentient being is morally distinct from harming a non-sentient being.

The rights to self-ownership and bodily integrity are a bit different than irresponsible conduct.

I believe in "responsibility." Get knocked up? DEAL WITH IT!
Man won't pay for child support? Throw the SoB in jail.

Apparently you don't believe in liberty. Or human rights.

What you appear to believe in is pregnancy as a punishment for sex and that women are not entitled to rights or responsibility for their own bodies.


Also, adoption is easy enough. Nobody just wants to get looked at differently. Abortion is all about saving face so you don't look bad.

No. Nine months of pregnancy and the attendant physical, emotional, psychological, and economic costs and risks is not "easy enough."

Are you aware that over one-half of all women in the US will have an abortion during their lifetime? Apparently they all just want to "save face."


Mmm, yeah. I would quote you, but I don't want to give you the shame to be attributed to that piece of trash. Yeahhhh. About that. Seperation of Church and State was originally created and designed(as if it's a car-Such terms for an ideology!) to protect CHURCH from STATE. The State does not tell you how to worship.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

The First Amendment was intended to seperate Church and State for the benefit of both Church and State.

Religious opinions are not forbidden from the real of politics. To the extent someone said otherwise, they are wrong.

If you would like to create a separate thread, I'd be glad to correct your apparent misunderstanding of the First Amendment.


Do I see you complaining about the Mormons in their early history?

Actually, the Mormon theocracy in Utah was a clear violation of the First Amendment.

What if I say God showed me a vision that blacks are supposed to be slaves?

What if I believe I should get to smoke pot and eat babies, and write religious texts on it.

Well, the State would disagree. And they would be within their right. Unfortunately, due to the fact that people are completely UNREASONABLE, the State has to make moral decisions. The idea that I may avoid all responsibility for my actions by making some girl I knocked up get an abortion(there is such legislation in consideration-Again, go look it up yourself, I'm not your mommy) is absurd. Of course, what if we wanted the baby and then she gets nervous and makes a bad decision.
She could regret it in four months.

What then?

Shenanigans. I call shenanigans. I do not believe there is any such legislation pending in the US. I challenge you to prove such an absurd suggestion.

Even if it were true, it would be unconstitutional for the same reasons that an attempt to ban abortion is unconstitutional.

As to your last little "scenario," it is a statistical non-issue. Women generally feel great relief at having had an abortion -- both short- and long-term. And women experience greater negative emotional and psychological effects from childbirth than abortion.

Regardless, people make bad decisions sometimes. They must live with them. That is what the "responsibility" you rant about means.

You guys are all such slippery slopists-On both sides. "IF THIS HAPPENS THEN EVERYTHING WILL BE BAD!" Show some freakin' evidence of that possibility. All I know is that almost nobody wants to pay for their actions anymore.
EVERYONE is all for "Freedom of Choice" and all against "Responsibility."

Some of us are for liberty and human rights. This is not inconsistent with responsibility.

Moreover, pregnancy is not a punishment for sex. You may join the Puritan Misery Squad in wishing it were so, but that does not justify banning abortion.

Tell that to the baby.
It has no ears or frontal lobe to understand what I'm saying yet.



ba·by
n. pl. ba·bies

An unborn child; a fetus.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

Is the copyright stuff really nescessary? And a dictionary only gives all the meanings of a word. It does not tell you the right ones. You are using one of the wrong ones.

Also, please view http://www.wealth4freedom.com/wns/holdinghands.htm
More like, you view http://www.wealth4freedom.com/wns/holdinghands.htm, nerd!


If modern couch-potato society has forced you to a level at which you cannot be bothered to click a link, I can only hope you can also not be bothered to eat or move.
An irrelevant ad hominem attack. Shut up now.

Also, oftentimes, yes, it is "OMG I'm pregnant must kill baby." A girl at my college 2 years back had a baby in her bathtub, threw it in a dumpster behind the house she lived in and it was found 3 days later frozen to death. Of course, that's not an abortion, but it's still an example of giving up responsibility, ending the life of a possible human being.
If it's not about abortion, then why do you bring it up? I say that baby was up to no good and should be delt with accordingly.

Really, at one day, what's a life worth, anyway? Hell, she was probably drunk a lot, it might've been a re-re anyway, so she must've done it a favor letting it starve and freeze to death. I'd love to find a news report on it, but I can't.
Speculation and lack of citing. This makes me wonder if what you said is even true.

Also, anyone on Nationstates who hasn't read 1984 makes me cry.

I'll read it as soon as I'm done with Nuklear Age, okay?

"FREEDOM OF CHOICE"

Yes, well, if I choose to drive recklessly and you die, isn't that just special.
Yes, well, if I choose to smoke and my son dies of lung cancer, isn't that just special.
Except that those are people dying, not fetal parasites.

I feel this post is plenty long enough already.

You guys are all such slippery slopists-On both sides. "IF THIS HAPPENS THEN EVERYTHING WILL BE BAD!" Show some freakin' evidence of that possibility. All I know is that almost nobody wants to pay for their actions anymore.
EVERYONE is all for "Freedom of Choice" and all against "Responsibility."

Wellllllll,

I will pick this one up. For the sake of argument let's take the extreame and say Christian menions get BushCo to outlaw all abortions.

There are many that think there is no excuse for any abortions.

Here are some examples.

1) There is a condition (I forget the medical term) where a woman has a false pregnancy. The body goes through the motions but there is nothing going on in the sack in the womb. Outcome; the woman will get an infection if her body does not eject. She will die.

The process they use to clean her up. An Abortion.

2) Terminal Diseases. Cystic Fibrosis. A person has a 35% chance of living to teen years. Such a child has to have a TEAM of doctors for eating and a TEAM of doctors for breathing.

My wife had a sister who had an extreame version of the disease. She lived 2 weeks all in the hospitol under machines and drugged the whole time. My mother-in-law once commented she thinks she never recognised her. Forty years later and they still haven't gotten over it.

One of my mom's friends just had one with the disease. They spend 24/7 taking care of the kid. The woman lost her job. The husband is about to loose his. Now with the new bankruptcy laws, this family is going to live a substandard life for the rest of their days(well that is just a guess).

3) Horrible diseases. Downs. There is no clear way to meassure how bad it will affect the person. Some are light and some are extreame.

A nurse once told me she had two abortions because they tested positive for it. She said she had a brother that had an extreame version of it and her parents basically existed to take care of him.

A friend once told me a story of her brother and her nephew. The boy was the ideal example of what a child should be. Happy, intelligent and confident. For my friend to say that means a great deal as she views all children as little vermin and it's great other people have them as long as they leave them home. The brother said "hey we did good with this one, let's have another." Extreame downs. The family spent all it's time taking care of this kid as he required 24/7 attention. They got divorsed and the boy did a complete 180 on his personality as he was forgotten by the parents.

-------------------

Now what is gained from all this? How are people better for having to go through this?

To say that abortions only happen for birth control purposes or a lack of responsility is rather ignorant.

To say that people get them as if it was nothing is very ignorant.

-----------------------
Now my story.

My wife had the false pregnancy and got an abortion for it.

We had a child with CF and had an abortion. As our gentics people said "We have never seen this before" was an echo of the doctor who help my parent-in-laws. They did an autopsy and reported the girls organs looked like she had lived with the disease for several years.

After thinking of what her family went through and the affect her parents went through, she didn't want to see that happen to us.

Did we have doubts? Did we think we could make it better? Yes.

However, we decided to be responcible to our first daughter and not have this child. We decided to be responcible to what would have been our other daughter and not make her live with this horrible disease that most likely would have ended her life in 2 weeks. The gene strand was highly unusal. Her parents latter tested and the father had the same strand.

Finally, there is always regret. This is something you always carry with you and from time to time wonder.

Abortion unfortunatly has it's place. I would be a beliver of adoption if there were no children in the system.

To those that see it as the solution. Do this. Create a child and give it away.

I am done with this thread......

I don't get that opinion... Honestly, you have no idea how that child is going to fare. You ASSUME that they're going to have the worst life imaginable, when I've seen many adopted kids come out very well. You don't give a child the chance. Yes, it is your decision as to whether or not you kill it, but I'd like to think there's a better reason as to why you would kill it.

I agree this is a poor reason to have an abortion.

But you don't really care why women have abortions, do you?

You don't think they are worthy of making the decision at all.


Perhaps you could've used birth control.

As most women who have abortions do.

I see how rape could make abortion seem logical, but just as much as you couldn't help getting raped, the baby couldn't help being created.

Cute. A woman who is raped must be sentenced to 9 months of physical, emotional, and economic costs and risks because she was raped. Her rapist bears little chance in the US of serving any time at all. But to protect a clump of cells the woman must be punished.

I think it's a matter of selfishness. If you're going to risk that by having sex, then you should be prepared for the consequences.

It is a matter of basic human rights. A woman is entitled to self-ownership, bodily integrity, etc. A woman is entitled to forgoe the risks and costs of childbirth.

A woman is not a slave to a clump of cells.

Pregnancy is not a punishment for sex. Get away from the Puritan Misery Squad.

The consequences of sex are not necessarily pregnancy and pregnancy does not mean carrying a child to term. Multiple leaps of logic.

Most people who have abortions usually don't see anything wrong with it and thus wouldn't feel guilty.


Well I hate to say that you are extremly ignorant if you truely believe this.

People regret them all the time.

I do, the nurse mentioned in my other post did, and even a coworker who had one as a teenager did as well.

Are there some that don't? Probably? However, you are talking about a very tiny percentage.

Well I hate to say that you are extremly ignorant if you truely believe this.

People regret them all the time.

I do, the nurse mentioned in my other post did, and even a coworker who had one as a teenager did as well.

Are there some that don't? Probably? However, you are talking about a very tiny percentage.

Curious.

Most reliable research would indicate otherwise.

Not that women do not take abortion seriously. But significant regret among all but a very tiny percentage? No.

Any lasting negative emotional effects -- less than for childbirth.

Oh my God, think of someone other than yourself, people!
Way to take an argument completely out of context, Lochie. By economic constraints I don't mean that the child may impinge on the mother's freedom to buy flash shoes and handbags. I meant that having a baby may impinge on the mother's ability to provide basic living requirements, to both herself and her other children. In warzones, and periods of extreme famine, is it humane to jeopardise the right to life of other 'innocents' for the sake of another baby? How would you decide between the children you already love and the child you are yet to love? In a perfect world, we can feed every child, but this isn't a perfect world, and children die. Abortion isn't always a self-centred act. Don't demonise women for their solution to a desperate situation, because in their position you might have chosen the same thing.

EDIT: I forgot to quote, but this regards the first post

For one, I completely disagree about the abortion issue.

For two: you made MUCH more than one mistake in grammar. Plus, you're "Everyone makes one mistake once in a while" contradicts your views on abortion. Don't most anti-abortion people say "Take responsibility for your actions"?

Curious.

Most reliable research would indicate otherwise.

Not that women do not take abortion seriously. But significant regret among all but a very tiny percentage? No.

Any lasting negative emotional effects -- less than for childbirth.


Interesting. What research is that?

Curious.

Most reliable research would indicate otherwise.

Not that women do not take abortion seriously. But significant regret among all but a very tiny percentage? No.

Any lasting negative emotional effects -- less than for childbirth.

Hmmmmm

Ok show your sources.

Interesting. What research is that?

APA Briefing Paper on The Impact of Abortion on Women (http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/womenabortfacts.html)

Psychological Responses of Women After First-Trimester Abortion (http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/57/8/777)

Abortion and Mental Health: Studies based on the National Longitudinal Study of Youth (NLSY) (http://www.prochoiceforum.org.uk/psy_research5.asp)

The Emotional Effects of Induced Abortion (http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/fact-010600-emoteff.xml)

Hmmmmm

Ok show your sources.

See the above post.

Feel free to check the accuracy of the citations in the second and third posts. They are very accurate.

See the above post.

Feel free to check the accuracy of the citations in the second and third posts. They are very accurate.
Just on the "abortions have some negative psychological consequences" line of thinking, pregnancy that goes to term can lead to post partum depression, and even psychosis. In fact, the number of women who experience at the very least subclinical depression ('minor' depression) is rather high. Do we hear people calling for a banning of all birting? No.

Abortion is a "least evil" situation. By that I don't mean that abortion is evil... I just mean that if a women feel that by having an abortion she is choosing the path of "least harm" (to herself, the foetus, society; whatever- it's up to her to weigh these things up) she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy. This is based on medical ethics; autonomy, beneficence and non-harm.

Edit: Besides which, saying that women have "too many" abortions is demeaning to the intellect of women... Women know perfectly well that abortions are unpleasant and they don't take them lightly. It's kind of a big decision.

Just on the "abortions have some negative psychological consequences" line of thinking, pregnancy that goes to term can lead to post partum depression, and even psychosis. In fact, the number of women who experience at the very least subclinical depression ('minor' depression) is rather high. Do we hear people calling for a banning of all birting? No.

Abortion is a "least evil" situation. By that I don't mean that abortion is evil... I just mean that if a women feel that by having an abortion she is choosing the path of "least harm" (to herself, the foetus, society; whatever- it's up to her to weigh these things up) she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy. This is based on medical ethics; autonomy, beneficence and non-harm.

Edit: Besides which, saying that women have "too many" abortions is demeaning to the intellect of women... Women know perfectly well that abortions are unpleasant and they don't take them lightly. It's kind of a big decision.

Agreed. Of course. :)

there are two of these threads... my response is in the other... but for the short response

murder... nothing more, nothing less

Being male, I cannot participate in supporting a law that would force a woman to carry out an unwanted pregnancy.
I think that while abortions are legal, serious consideration should be given before one is performed.
I also think serious consideration should be given before one gets pregnant intentionally as well.
Abortion should not be taken lightly. Nor should concieving a child.

If you're so against them, do not put yourself in a position where you would need one. And dont put someone else in a postion either.

there are two of these threads... my response is in the other... but for the short response

murder... nothing more, nothing less

Try defining murder. Then get back to us.


EDIT: Lashie's long version in the other thread was "I believe abortion is murder."

I'm glad we were spared that lengthy insight here. :rolleyes:

Try defining murder. Then get back to us.


EDIT: Lashie's long version in the other thread was "I believe abortion is murder."

I'm glad we were spared that lengthy insight here. :rolleyes:

Murder=the intentional unlawful killing of a human being by another human being.

everyone abortion is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortion it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's feelings are about this.evryone its just one mistake gosh dont critisize people just the way we write everyone makes a mistake once in a while gosh just because we learned it in 2nd grade doesnt mean that we have to be perfect on every single word.

Do you really expect anyone to take you seriously if you can't post in coherent sentences?

I'm basically pro choice.

Murder=the intentional unlawful killing of a human being by another human being.

Close enough.

That definition, properly applied, includes 2 reasons why abortion is not murder.

I have a pretty split opinion when it comes to abortion. I don't like the thought of killing a baby and being Christian I have to wonder if abortion is going against what God wants to happen. But then again, it really is the mother's choice, and if I were 15 and pregnant I would want the option of abortion to be open to me. Abortion is one of those issues I have always been on the fence with.

I have a pretty split opinion when it comes to abortion. I don't like the thought of killing a baby and being Christian I have to wonder if abortion is going against what God wants to happen. But then again, it really is the mother's choice, and if I were 15 and pregnant I would want the option of abortion to be open to me. Abortion is one of those issues I have always been on the fence with.

Good for you.

There is nothing wrong with having qualms about abortion but recognizing it is a woman's right.

But, fyi, you will search in vain for prohibitions of abortion in the Bible. To the contrary, you will find evidence it is not a crime.

Good for you.

There is nothing wrong with having qualms about abortion but recognizing it is a woman's right.

But, fyi, you will search in vain for prohibitions of abortion in the Bible. To the contrary, you will find evidence it is not a crime.

I understand what you're saying, but what I meant was I'm unsure about the whole "meant to be" or "it's God's will" thing. I'm not even sure I believe some things are meant to be. Anyway, was abortion something people even thought possible back when the Bible was written?

I understand what you're saying, but what I meant was I'm unsure about the whole "meant to be" or "it's God's will" thing. I'm not even sure I believe some things are meant to be.

I think I understand.

The key, to me, is that you recognize a woman's right to choose.

Whether you, as an individual, believe abortion is moral is a separate question.

I think the answer is yes, as I have tried to explain herein.


Anyway, was abortion something people even thought possible back when the Bible was written?

Yes.

And you might find the following articles interesting:
ABORTION: Ancient Christian Beliefs (http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_hist.htm)
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT ABORTION: Overview (http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_biblo.htm)
Abortion-related references from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament): (http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_biblh.htm)
The Christian Scriptures (New Testament) and Abortion (http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_biblc.htm)
Abortion is not a sin (http://www.postfun.com/pfp/blasphemy.html)
Biblical Overview Of Abortion Issue (http://www.libchrist.com/other/abortion/overview.html)

If you are interested more in the ethical, rather than Biblical, acceptability of abortion, I'd be glad to suggest some references.

Interesting websites, thanks.

cant ban abortion, its a civil right, like freedom of speech and voting hahaha :gundge:

everyone abortion is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortion it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's feelings are about this.evryone its just one mistake gosh dont critisize people just the way we write everyone makes a mistake once in a while gosh just because we learned it in 2nd grade doesnt mean that we have to be perfect on every single word.

People pushing their opinions as though they were fact is wrong, and we should stop it, now....

Abortion is not murder... try looking into the legal requirements for an action to be 'murder'.

Hi, Grave n Idle, haven't seen you for a while.

Good for you.

There is nothing wrong with having qualms about abortion but recognizing it is a woman's right.

But, fyi, you will search in vain for prohibitions of abortion in the Bible. To the contrary, you will find evidence it is not a crime.

You confuse me... can you give me the evidence it's not a crime?

I know you people hate Bible quotations but...

Jeremiah 1:5 Before i formed you in the womb i knew you, before you were born i set you apart...

And how can you say it's the womans right. She is killing another individual person. That baby is not actually her, it is a different person altogether

And looking at your sig, how can you be saying these things?

i have to ask: how many people against abortion, claiming it is murder, support the death penalty? i mean this seriously, and also truthfully.

People pushing their opinions as though they were fact is wrong, and we should stop it, now....

Abortion is not murder... try looking into the legal requirements for an action to be 'murder'.

Sorry, i just used a vague definition of murder that was defined as: killing people deliberately...

I take back my statement of it being murder. It's just plain killing people deliberately

And hi, i haven't talked to you since my Jesus forum

First, get some punctuation.

Second, don't think that you know what is "right" and "wrong" for everyone.

Edit: Damn, you don't even know how to spell it right! As for your abominable writing style, you should remember the things that we learned in second grade. If you can't even get a good grasp on spelling and punctuation, do you really think that we're going to listen to you when you want to talk about a subject such as abortion?

i have to ask: how many people against abortion, claiming it is murder, support the death penalty? i mean this seriously, and also truthfully.

As of today, i am probably sitting on the fence. I dislike it immensely and i think that once i've thought about it some more, found out some more about it, i prob won't agree with it, but thats the future... i can't predict the future

First, get some punctuation.

Second, don't think that you know what is "right" and "wrong" for everyone.

Edit: Damn, you don't even know how to spell it right! As for your abominable writing style, you should remember the things that we learned in second grade. If you can't even get a good grasp on spelling and punctuation, do you really think that we're going to listen to you when you want to talk about a subject such as abortion?


So, whats "right" and "wrong" differs from person to person... is there any absolute right and wrong? if not then whats to say that Hitler wasn't doing what was "right"

So, whats "right" and "wrong" differs from person to person... is there any absolute right and wrong? if not then whats to say that Hitler wasn't doing what was "right"

Yes, but there are some things that are either absolute "right" or absolute "wrong", this is not one of those situations. I guess that you would say having sex with children wouldn't be an absolute right or wrong situation?

So, whats "right" and "wrong" differs from person to person... is there any absolute right and wrong? if not then whats to say that Hitler wasn't doing what was "right"
Simple, you define right and wrong by impact on other human beings. Human beings in this context referring to those who are already born...

Yes, but there are some things that are either absolute "right" or absolute "wrong", this is not one of those situations. I guess that you would say having sex with children wouldn't be an absolute right or wrong situation?

I think there are absolute right and wrongs for everything... well not likt which jeans you put on in the morning. But on moral issues, including this, i believe that there are absolute right and wrongs and they are true for everyone, whether they believe them or not

Simple, you define right and wrong by impact on other human beings. Human beings in this context referring to those who are already born...

well this is where we disagree... i believe that it shouldn't only refer to whether or not the person is born...

I think there are absolute right and wrongs for everything... well not likt which jeans you put on in the morning. But on moral issues, including this, i believe that there are absolute right and wrongs and they are true for everyone, whether they believe them or not

-sigh- This is a lot different, this specific topic.

Well ya see, this is the odd thing, while I am Conservative in everything else, for example the economy, business, guns, homosexuality etc. I am somehow liberal on the abortion/euthanasia thing, saying that it is right for them to die when they are in pain and saying that it is the parents right to choose to terminate their baby. don't you all think that is very odd.

I am personally opposed to having an abortion, so I won't be having one. However, I am pro-choice, because I think that there is more to the abortion decision than what is convenient to the woman.
To outlaw abortion, you have to examine why women have abortions. There are economic reasons. Children are an expensive responsibility, and I know women who have had to go without food to raise children on their own, even in this westernised country that I live in. There are medical reasons, such as those that threaten the life of the woman carrying the child. There are questions about raising a child with a disability, or a terminal illness, and being able to give them a life free of pain. There are probably many other reasons, and I think the abortion decision must be applied to the merits of each case.
Outlawing abortion doesn't make abortion go away. People in desperate circumstances still break the law. If doctors cannot provide abortions for women, those women will subject themselves to risky procedures at the hands of people with no qualification, and therefore no accountability if something goes wrong. To rule out abortion may save a proportion of babies, but will inevitably lead to the death of babies aborted by illegal means, and potentially the death of their mothers as well. While Pro-life standpoints have to argue for the child that can't protect itself, it also must respect the life of the mother, whose circumstances may be desperate. Abortion isn't something a woman approaches willy-nilly. It's an intensley horrific experience, and one that should be examined stringently before a decision is made.
If you want to reduce abortions, then you must propose solutions for the factors that precipitate abortion. Be prepared to adopt someone's child. Be prepared to economically support a single mother so that she can continue an education. Be prepared to assist in the emotional healing of a woman subjected to rape. Be prepared to assist in the palliative care of a baby with a terminal illness, or the support of a child with a disability. Stand by your beliefs with ACTION, not just emotive rhetoric.

This, I think, requires review by the anti-abortionists in this thread. I mean a real review. Read it, think it over. Then argue items in this text. Please.

Thank you Boodicka, excellent, well defined and weighted.

everyone abortion is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortion it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's feelings are about this.evryone its just one mistake gosh dont critisize people just the way we write everyone makes a mistake once in a while gosh just because we learned it in 2nd grade doesnt mean that we have to be perfect on every single word.

Last edited by Nicolett : Yesterday at 3:23 AM. Reason: one mistake i made
That last line really made my day! :D See, there is fun in abortion threads.
Nicolett, you leave the impression of an uneducated little boy who isnt even near a situation where he might get involved with a abortion. I wouldnt change my viewpoint, even if i was on the fence, if it meant being on the same side as someone so incoherent unable to formulate a proper viewpoint and contributing not a single argument but pure emotional appeal.
You do more damage than good to your faction, so please continue this way and spare me real arguing for the thousandth time.

That last line really made my day! :D See, there is fun in abortion threads.
Nicolett, you leave the impression of an uneducated little boy who isnt even near a situation where he might get involved with a abortion. I wouldnt change my viewpoint, even if i was on the fence, if it meant being on the same side as someone so incoherent unable to formulate a proper viewpoint and contributing not a single argument but pure emotional appeal.
You do more damage than good to your faction, so please continue this way and spare me real arguing for the thousandth time.

Amen, but I don't think that she is going to understand all of what you just said. :P But yes, I agree that she doesn't seem to be grown up enough to even begin to fathom what she is really trying to say.

You confuse me... can you give me the evidence it's not a crime?

Look in the freakin' links I provided!


I know you people hate Bible quotations but...

Jeremiah 1:5 Before i formed you in the womb i knew you, before you were born i set you apart...

Again, dealt with in the links I provided.

And how can you say it's the womans right. She is killing another individual person. That baby is not actually her, it is a different person altogether

No, she is not killing a person.

I can say it is the woman's right because I don't believe in slavery. I believe we all have the right to self-ownership, bodily integrity, and other human rights.

You cannot force me or anyone else -- regardless of gender -- to yield control over their own body -- even if necessary to save the life of another person.

If you cannot force me to donate a kidney against my will, you cannot force a woman to be a walking incubator for 9 months.

That an embryo-zygote-early fetus has less claim to rights than the pig whose flesh I ate with breakfast this morning makes the equation even easier.

And looking at your sig, how can you be saying these things?

Wow. Perhaps I've thought about these things a little bit.

Real, live, breathing children who have rights, have thoughts, and feel pain. That is a focus of my concern.

Clumps of cells with no brain matter? Nope.

Sorry, i just used a vague definition of murder that was defined as: killing people deliberately...

I take back my statement of it being murder. It's just plain killing people deliberately

And hi, i haven't talked to you since my Jesus forum

As I thought, you hadn't thought it through.

You still haven't.

Define "person."

And explain why killing persons is wrong.

Be sure to explain why a zygote is a person whom it is wrong to kill, but a pig, a monkey, or a dolphin is not.

I think there are absolute right and wrongs for everything... well not likt which jeans you put on in the morning. But on moral issues, including this, i believe that there are absolute right and wrongs and they are true for everyone, whether they believe them or not

I think slavery and depriving others of basic human rights is wrong.

Why don't you?

I understand what you're saying, but what I meant was I'm unsure about the whole "meant to be" or "it's God's will" thing. I'm not even sure I believe some things are meant to be. Anyway, was abortion something people even thought possible back when the Bible was written?
Are you kidding? Do you know how many herbs do the job? (though at great risk to the woman... ) the catholic church never really had any problems with it up to 40 days after conception until late in the middle ages.

How about this, you can have abortions but if religiously you disagree, simple don't have one. Abortion poses no threat to society so their is no basis for temporal law and religious law is a matter of choice.

Case closed my dear Watson.

everyone abortion is wrong and we should stop it now that is murder and everyone should have a part in it i am teary eyed when it comes to abortion it is wrong and it disgusts me i wanna know what everyone's feelings are about this.evryone its just one mistake gosh dont critisize people just the way we write everyone makes a mistake once in a while gosh just because we learned it in 2nd grade doesnt mean that we have to be perfect on every single word.
Wow. Okay, I do not think abortion is nessecarily "right" or "wrong", but I believe it should be a legal decision that women can make, after all, it is HER body. I don't think men should have any say in the matter whatsoever. I don't care WHAT the circumstances are-it should be considered a woman's RIGHT to choose if she wishes to continue with the pregnancy or not.

well this is where we disagree... i believe that it shouldn't only refer to whether or not the person is born...

I believe it should refer to whether the impacted entity is a person.

Zygotes are not persons.

Embryos are not persons.

Early-term fetuses are not persons.

There are a wide range of animals that have a better claim to personhood than the objects of abortion.

I
There are a wide range of animals that have a better claim to personhood than the objects of abortion.

I agree in someways but i'm still undecided after all embryos have the potential to be hum.

human, sorry