NationStates Jolt Archive


Argument by Subjective premises? Religious, cultural? is it irrational?

Capharnaum
30-04-2005, 16:39
I find this quote quite valid.

"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

While it does not really bother me if people are do not objectively rationalize their beliefs (it really does not affect me, and it is there choice so they can do as they wish), what sometimes irritates me, is when other's, in debate, justify something as though objectively, using their subjective beliefs alone.

For instance, someone may argue strongly that we should say, wear clothes, on a cultural basis, although we may live in a country where it is hot all year round, and lack of clothes would in fact be pragmatic, but culturally one may have migrated, or adopted the culture of a country where it may be cold much of the time, and say it is barabaric, or against culture, etc.

Or religion may tell that say, homosexuality is evil, when by logic one may deduce that there is no real improbity in homosexuality.(just a good example, could not think of other good ones, please don't stab :) ) Where a religion, when formed, was most likely based on logic, and arguing just based on the conclusions made by those who may have formed the religion, rather than the logic used to formulate such conclusions, seems to be assuming religious beliefs as postulates of being almost

Or even quoting: popular quotes are often conclusions made by someone reknowned, are catchy, but are often just the conclusion, a baseless statement when seperated from the logic set out to come to such a conclusion. Yet some in debate, simply present only such a baseless statement and appear to think that it is definitive, that perhaps because this person believed it, it is somehow instantly true. (whereas I in this thread am perusing the logic behind a certain quote)

Again, I am fine with those who choose to hold beliefs in such ways, to trust and to have faith in the source of this belief. But arguing with these beliefs as assumed truths to me I find is lucidly irrational.
Boodicka
30-04-2005, 18:32
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."
I love the Buddha, I really do. That message has inspired my philosophical path since I was wee, and I think it is a beautiful rally for all people to find their own truth and live up to it.

As far as truth goes, I believe it is entirely dependent on the individual, as frustrating as their truth may be. I think that speaking as a human being, the differences in opinion on questions of personal truth can be both deep or very superficial. When we can detach from an issue, such as capital punishment, and make a judgement on it using both our cognitive skills and our heart-feeling, we may find very diverse answers from different people. Some people may study the issue deeply, and petition for it to stop. Others may study it in other ways, and find it a perfectly appropriate punishment. In that sense, capital punishment may be a superficial issue, because it's so easy for us to detach from it in order to think about it rationally. For a mother of a person on death row, the detachment may not occur, and her reaction may be purely fueled by her heart-feeling. Hence we have these variables in our deciding about what is truth.

That said, people also differ in their need for frameworks around their beliefs. Some people are only comfortable when the structures around what is right and wrong are very clearly outlined by society. They accept themselves based on how they fit within their society's framework of what is right. Others are not afraid to see the shades of grey and accept themselves based on a belief that they are right, irrespective of society. They can blur the lines and still respect themselves. Speaking personally, I think this inclination to society-imposed rules or personally-imposed rules is a matter of nurture, but that doesn't mean that it needs to be changed. It takes all kinds to make the world work.

I think the Buddha's teachings speak to all people. Whether you depend on a belief structure or not, there will always be things in your life to question. You will always be confronted by issues and opinions, and though your opinion on one issue may be unshakeable, there will always be a possibility of consensus, even if it is only reached by respecting the difference. The quote speaks to me about pushing yourself as much as you can to understand, and not be afraid to be different. "When your opinion is good and conducive to the good of one and all," then it respects another's right to the opposing view. "Arguing with these beliefs as assumed truths" may be perfectly valid, as long as they have concluded that belief by sufficient exploration, and they respect the other person's right to dissent.
San haiti
30-04-2005, 18:40
So basically you're saying tradition is, by and large, crap.

Well duh.
Bodies Without Organs
30-04-2005, 18:47
Where a religion, when formed, was most likely based on logic, and arguing just based on the conclusions made by those who may have formed the religion, rather than the logic used to formulate such conclusions, seems to be assuming religious beliefs as postulates of being almost



..of being almost... what?

Personally I'm with Wittgenstein on this one - religions aren't based on logic as they are attempts at finding/providing/comnstructing answers to the questions which the methodology of logic is incapable of answering.
San haiti
30-04-2005, 18:50
Um, I should probably expand on that answer. I do agree with what you said but i've never read that quote by the buddha before. I think tradition is largely a matter of laziness, work out a good way of doing things then stick to it, even if the circumstances change becuase you cant be bothered to think up a better way of doing things. If this type of thinking gets too pervasive you end up with a situation similair to the one in gormenghast, if you've read it but luckily we have a lot of people ignore that type of thing and can get things done.

I'm just annoyed because someone else used a good thread idea i had yesterday before me, and then I was going to make a thread like this one today and got beat to it again.
The Cat-Tribe
30-04-2005, 18:50
..of being almost... what?

Personally I'm with Wittgenstein on this one - religions aren't based on logic as they are attempts at finding/providing/comnstructing answers to the questions which the methodology of logic is incapable of answering.

My God says Wittgenstein can shove his poker where the sun don't shine! ;) :D
Steffengrad
30-04-2005, 18:59
I'm just going to quote myself from another thread...

"For the past year I’ve been studying philosophy at my university, it has been highly rewarding and most humbling experience. I have found is that my former beliefs, assumptions, and justifications concerning many things including politics, morality, etc are unsatisfactory. Even with my limited understanding of philosophy, I have been forced to be modest in my claims of knowledge. For the most part I’ve suspended my belief. In due time I hope I can attain philosophical certainty, but for the mean I’ll stick to being modest and non-dogmatic in my belief."

I've found that NS has a lot of politically or religious partisan/dogmatic individuals. Personally it sickens me, particularly when claims are made of “matter of fact” and absolutes.
Bodies Without Organs
01-05-2005, 02:07
My God says Wittgenstein can shove his poker where the sun don't shine! ;) :D

That's fine: Wittgenstein's point was that in questions of ethics or religion logic has its limits, not that all questions of ethics or religion are bunkum.