NationStates Jolt Archive

Curious how many follow the neo-fidel(Chavez). It is interesting how the US appears to be building an ally base vs Chavez. Anyone care to comment.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/world/11502111.htm

Curious how many follow the neo-fidel(Chavez). It is interesting how the US appears to be building an ally base vs Chavez. Anyone care to comment.

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/news/world/11502111.htm
Well it is "their backyard." :rolleyes:

Venezuela is the 4rth most important foreign source of petroleum to the U.S.. Naturally the Bush administration dislikes Chavez for his attempts to nationalise Venezuela's resources and probably would have done something about it if he was not stuck in Iraq. In his stead he has tried to use the Colombian government to denounce and accuse Chavez of instigating problems along the boarder. A boarder which happens to be occupied by Colombian guerrillas for the past 40 years. Currently the CIA is using the Colombian military in small scale covert operations to try to destabilize the Chavez administration.

Venezuela is the 4rth most important foreign source of petroleum to the U.S.. Naturally the Bush administration dislikes Chavez for his attempts to nationalise Venezuela's resources and probably would have done something about it if he was not stuck in Iraq. In his stead he has tried to use the Colombian government to denounce and accuse Chavez of instigating problems along the boarder. A boarder which happens to be occupied by Colombian guerrillas for the past 40 years. Currently the CIA is using the Colombian military in small scale covert operations to try to destabilize the Chavez administration.

Yeah< I hope this works. Dont want to have to "rebuild" another nation.

I don't think we even have any allies in South America. They're either dead, deposed, or very old and deposed.

I don't think we even have any allies in South America. They're either dead, deposed, or very old and deposed.

Well, when everyone you share a continent (including S. A.) is scared shitless of you I guess you dont need friends.

Well, when everyone you share a continent (including S. A.) is scared shitless of you I guess you dont need friends.

I highly doubt South Americans are "Scared" of US. The only ones to worry are the ego-maniacal dictator types. The soveriegn democracies need not worry about any intervention by the US.

I highly doubt South Americans are "Scared" of US. The only ones to worry are the ego-maniacal dictator types. The soveriegn democracies need not worry about any intervention by the US.

What democracies? I thought it was all run by drug lords and Generals down there. [/slight sarcasm]

I highly doubt South Americans are "Scared" of US. The only ones to worry are the ego-maniacal dictator types. The soveriegn democracies need not worry about any intervention by the US.

1846
The U.S., fulfilling the doctrine of Manifest Destiny, goes to war with Mexico and ends up with a third of Mexico's territory.
1850, 1853, 1854, 1857
U.S. interventions in Nicaragua.
1855
Tennessee adventurer William Walker and his mercenaries take over Nicaragua, institute forced labor, and legalize slavery.

"Los yankis... have burst their way like a fertilizing torrent through the barriers of barbarism." --N.Y. Daily News

He's ousted two years later by a Central American coalition largely inspired by Cornelius Vanderbilt, whose trade Walker was infringing.

"The enemies of American civilization-- for such are the enemies of slavery-- seem to be more on the alert than its friends." --William Walker

1856
First of five U.S. interventions in Panama to protect the Atlantic-Pacific railroad from Panamanian nationalists.
1898
U.S. declares war on Spain, blaming it for destruction of the Maine. (In 1976, a U.S. Navy commission will conclude that the explosion was probably an accident.) The war enables the U.S. to occupy Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippines.
1903
The Platt Amendment inserted into the Cuban constitution grants the U.S. the right to intervene when it sees fit.
1903
When negotiations with Colombia break down, the U.S. sends ten warships to back a rebellion in Panama in order to acquire the land for the Panama Canal. The Frenchman Philippe Bunau-Varilla negotiates the Canal Treaty and writes Panama's constitution.
1904
U.S. sends customs agents to take over finances of the Dominican Republic to assure payment of its external debt.
1905
U.S. Marines help Mexican dictator Porfirio Díaz crush a strike in Sonora.
1905
U.S. troops land in Honduras for the first of 5 times in next 20 years.
1906
Marines occupy Cuba for two years in order to prevent a civil war.
1907
Marines intervene in Honduras to settle a war with Nicaragua.
1908
U.S. troops intervene in Panama for first of 4 times in next decade.
1909
Liberal President José Santos Zelaya of Nicaragua proposes that American mining and banana companies pay taxes; he has also appropriated church lands and legalized divorce, done business with European firms, and executed two Americans for participating in a rebellion. Forced to resign through U.S. pressure. The new president, Adolfo Díaz, is the former treasurer of an American mining company.
1910
U.S. Marines occupy Nicaragua to help support the Díaz regime.
1911
The Liberal regime of Miguel Dávila in Honduras has irked the State Department by being too friendly with Zelaya and by getting into debt with Britain. He is overthrown by former president Manuel Bonilla, aided by American banana tycoon Sam Zemurray and American mercenary Lee Christmas, who becomes commander-in-chief of the Honduran army.
1912
U.S. Marines intervene in Cuba to put down a rebellion of sugar workers.
1912
Nicaragua occupied again by the U.S., to shore up the inept Díaz government. An election is called to resolve the crisis: there are 4000 eligible voters, and one candidate, Díaz. The U.S. maintains troops and advisors in the country until 1925.
1914
U.S. bombs and then occupies Vera Cruz, in a conflict arising out of a dispute with Mexico's new government. President Victoriano Huerta resigns.
1915
U.S. Marines occupy Haiti to restore order, and establish a protectorate which lasts till 1934. The president of Haiti is barred from the U.S. Officers' Club in Port-au-Prince, because he is black.

"Think of it-- niggers speaking French!" --secretary of State William Jennings Bryan, briefed on the Haitian situation

1916
Marines occupy the Dominican Republic, staying till 1924.
! 1916
Pancho Villa, in the sole act of Latin American aggression against the U.S, raids the city of Columbus, New Mexico, killing 17 Americans.

"Am sure Villa's attacks are made in Germany." --James Gerard, U.S. ambassador to Berlin

1917
U.S. troops enter Mexico to pursue Pancho Villa. They can't catch him.
1917
Marines intervene again in Cuba, to guarantee sugar exports during WWI.
1918
U.S. Marines occupy Panamanian province of Chiriqui for two years to maintain public order.
1921
President Coolidge strongly suggests the overthrow of Guatemalan President Carlos Herrera, in the interests of United Fruit. The Guatemalans comply.
1925
U.S. Army troops occupy Panama City to break a rent strike and keep order.
1926
Marines, out of Nicaragua for less than a year, occupy the country again, to settle a volatile political situation. Secretary of State Kellogg describes a "Nicaraguan-Mexican-Soviet" conspiracy to inspire a "Mexican-Bolshevist hegemony" within striking distance of the Canal.

"That intervention is not now, never was, and never will be a set policy of the United States is one of the most important facts President-elect Hoover has made clear." --NYT, 1928

1929
U.S. establishes a military academy in Nicaragua to train a National Guard as the country's army. Similar forces are trained in Haiti and the Dominican Republic.

"There is no room for any outside influence other than ours in this region. We could not tolerate such a thing without incurring grave risks... Until now Central America has always understood that governments which we recognize and support stay in power, while those which we do not recognize and support fall. Nicaragua has become a test case. It is difficult to see how we can afford to be defeated." --Undersecretary of State Robert Olds

1930
Rafael Leonidas Trujillo emerges from the U.S.-trained National Guard to become dictator of the Dominican Republic.
1932
The U.S. rushes warships to El Salvador in response to a communist-led uprising. President Martínez, however, prefers to put down the rebellion with his own forces, killing over 8000 people (the rebels had killed about 100).
! 1933
President Roosevelt announces the Good Neighbor policy.
1933
Marines finally leave Nicaragua, unable to suppress the guerrilla warfare of General Augusto César Sandino. Anastasio Somoza García becomes the first Nicaraguan commander of the National Guard.

"The Nicaraguans are better fighters than the Haitians, being of Indian blood, and as warriors similar to the aborigines who resisted the advance of civilization in this country." --NYT correspondent Harold Denny

1933
Roosevelt sends warships to Cuba to intimidate Gerardo Machado y Morales, who is massacring the people to put down nationwide strikes and riots. Machado resigns. The first provisional government lasts only 17 days; the second Roosevelt finds too left-wing and refuses to recognize. A pro-Machado counter-coup is put down by Fulgencio Batista, who with Roosevelt's blessing becomes Cuba's new strongman.
! 1934
Platt Amendment repealed.
1934
Sandino assassinated by agents of Somoza, with U.S. approval. Somoza assumes the presidency of Nicaragua two years later. To block his ascent, Secretary of State Cordell Hull explains, would be to intervene in the internal affairs of Nicaragua.
! 1936
U.S. relinquishes rights to unilateral intervention in Panama.
1941
Ricardo Adolfo de la Guardia deposes Panamanian president Arias in a military coup-- first clearing it with the U.S. Ambassador.

It was "a great relief to us, because Arias had been very troublesome and very pro-Nazi." --Secretary of War Henry Stimson

1943
The editor of the Honduran opposition paper El Cronista is summoned to the U.S. embassy and told that criticism of the dictator Tiburcio Carías Andino is damaging to the war effort. Shortly afterward, the paper is shut down by the government.
1944
The dictator Maximiliano Hernández Martínez of El Salvador is ousted by a revolution; the interim government is overthrown five months later by the dictator's former chief of police. The U.S.'s immediate recognition of the new dictator does much to tarnish Roosevelt's Good Neighbor policy in the eyes of Latin Americans.
1946
U.S. Army School of the Americas opens in Panama as a hemisphere-wide military academy. Its linchpin is the doctrine of National Security, by which the chief threat to a nation is internal subversion; this will be the guiding principle behind dictatorships in Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Central America, and elsewhere.
1948
José Figueres Ferrer wins a short civil war to become President of Costa Rica. Figueres is supported by the U.S., which has informed San José that its forces in the Panama Canal are ready to come to the capital to end "communist control" of Costa Rica.
1954
Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán, elected president of Guatemala, introduces land reform and seizes some idle lands of United Fruit-- proposing to pay for them the value United Fruit claimed on its tax returns. The CIA organizes a small force to overthrow him and begins training it in Honduras. When Arbenz naively asks for U.S. military help to meet this threat, he is refused; when he buys arms from Czechoslovakia it only proves he's a Red.

Guatemala is "openly and diligently toiling to create a Communist state in Central America... only two hours' bombing time from the Panama Canal." --Life

The CIA broadcasts reports detailing the imaginary advance of the "rebel army," and provides planes to strafe the capital. The army refuses to defend Arbenz, who resigns. The U.S.'s hand-picked dictator, Carlos Castillo Armas, outlaws political parties, reduces the franchise, and establishes the death penalty for strikers, as well as undoing Arbenz's land reform. Over 100,000 citizens are killed in the next 30 years of military rule.

"This is the first instance in history where a Communist government has been replaced by a free one." --Richard Nixon

1957
Eisenhower establishes Office of Public Safety to train Latin American police forces.
! 1959
Fidel Castro takes power in Cuba. Several months earlier he had undertaken a triumphal tour through the U.S., which included a CIA briefing on the Red menace.

"Castro's continued tawdry little melodrama of invasion." --Time, of Castro's warnings of an imminent U.S. invasion

1960
Eisenhower authorizes covert actions to get rid of Castro. Among other things, the CIA tries assassinating him with exploding cigars and poisoned milkshakes. Other covert actions against Cuba include burning sugar fields, blowing up boats in Cuban harbors, and sabotaging industrial equipment.
1960
The Canal Zone becomes the focus of U.S. counterinsurgency training.
1960
A new junta in El Salvador promises free elections; Eisenhower, fearing leftist tendencies, withholds recognition. A more attractive right-wing counter-coup comes along in three months.

"Governments of the civil-military type of El Salvador are the most effective in containing communist penetration in Latin America." --John F. Kennedy, after the coup

1960
Guatemalan officers attempt to overthrow the regime of Presidente Fuentes; Eisenhower stations warships and 2000 Marines offshore while Fuentes puts down the revolt. [Another source says that the U.S. provided air support for Fuentes.]
1960s
U.S. Green Berets train Guatemalan army in counterinsurgency techniques. Guatemalan efforts against its insurgents include aerial bombing, scorched-earth assaults on towns suspected of aiding the rebels, and death squads, which killed 20,000 people between 1966 and 1976. U.S. Army Col. John Webber claims that it was at his instigation that "the technique of counter-terror had been implemented by the army."

"If it is necessary to turn the country into a cemetary in order to pacify it, I will not hesitate to do so." --President Carlos Arana Osorio

1961
U.S. organizes force of 1400 anti-Castro Cubans, ships it to the Bahía de los Cochinos. Castro's army routs it.
1961
CIA-backed coup overthrows elected Pres. J. M. Velasco Ibarra of Ecuador, who has been too friendly with Cuba.
1962
CIA engages in campaign in Brazil to keep João Goulart from achieving control of Congress.
1963
CIA-backed coup overthrows elected social democrat Juan Bosch in the Dominican Republic.
1963
A far-right-wing coup in Guatemala, apparently U.S.-supported, forestalls elections in which "extreme leftist" Juan José Arévalo was favored to win.

"It is difficult to develop stable and democratic government [in Guatemala], because so many of the nation's Indians are illiterate and superstitious." --School textbook, 1964

1964
João Goulart of Brazil proposes agrarian reform, nationalization of oil. Ousted by U.S.-supported military coup.
! 1964
The free market in Nicaragua:

The Somoza family controls "about one-tenth of the cultivable land in Nicaragua, and just about everything else worth owning, the country's only airline, one television station, a newspaper, a cement plant, textile mill, several sugar refineries, half-a-dozen breweries and distilleries, and a Mercedes-Benz agency." --Life World Library

1965
A coup in the Dominican Republic attempts to restore Bosch's government. The U.S. invades and occupies the country to stop this "Communist rebellion," with the help of the dictators of Brazil, Paraguay, Honduras, and Nicaragua.

"Representative democracy cannot work in a country such as the Dominican Republic," Bosch declares later. Now why would he say that?

1966
U.S. sends arms, advisors, and Green Berets to Guatemala to implement a counterinsurgency campaign.

"To eliminate a few hundred guerrillas, the government killed perhaps 10,000 Guatemalan peasants." --State Dept. report on the program

1967
A team of Green Berets is sent to Bolivia to help find and assassinate Che Guevara.
1968
Gen. José Alberto Medrano, who is on the payroll of the CIA, organizes the ORDEN paramilitary force, considered the precursor of El Salvador's death squads.
! 1970
In this year (just as an example), U.S. investments in Latin America earn $1.3 billion; while new investments total $302 million.
1970
Salvador Allende Gossens elected in Chile. Suspends foreign loans, nationalizes foreign companies. For the phone system, pays ITT the company's minimized valuation for tax purposes. The CIA provides covert financial support for Allende's opponents, both during and after his election.
1972
U.S. stands by as military suspends an election in El Salvador in which centrist José Napoleón Duarte was favored to win. (Compare with the emphasis placed on the 1982 elections.)
1973
U.S.-supported military coup kills Allende and brings Augusto Pinochet Ugarte to power. Pinochet imprisons well over a hundred thousand Chileans (torture and rape are the usual methods of interrogation), terminates civil liberties, abolishes unions, extends the work week to 48 hours, and reverses Allende's land reforms.
1973
Military takes power in Uruguay, supported by U.S. The subsequent repression reportedly features the world's highest percentage of the population imprisoned for political reasons.
1974
Office of Public Safety is abolished when it is revealed that police are being taught torture techniques.
! 1976
Election of Jimmy Carter leads to a new emphasis on human rights in Central America. Carter cuts off aid to the Guatemalan military (or tries to; some slips through) and reduces aid to El Salvador.
! 1979
Ratification of the Panama Canal treaty which is to return the Canal to Panama by 1999.

"Once again, Uncle Sam put his tail between his legs and crept away rather than face trouble." --Ronald Reagan

1980
A right-wing junta takes over in El Salvador. U.S. begins massively supporting El Salvador, assisting the military in its fight against FMLN guerrillas. Death squads proliferate; Archbishop Romero is assassinated by right-wing terrorists; 35,000 civilians are killed in 1978-81. The rape and murder of four U.S. churchwomen results in the suspension of U.S. military aid for one month.
The U.S. demands that the junta undertake land reform. Within 3 years, however, the reform program is halted by the oligarchy.

"The Soviet Union underlies all the unrest that is going on." --Ronald Reagan

1980
U.S., seeking a stable base for its actions in El Salvador and Nicaragua, tells the Honduran military to clean up its act and hold elections. The U.S. starts pouring in $100 million of aid a year and basing the contras on Honduran territory.
Death squads are also active in Honduras, and the contras tend to act as a state within a state.
1981
The CIA steps in to organize the contras in Nicaragua, who started the previous year as a group of 60 ex-National Guardsmen; by 1985 there are about 12,000 of them. 46 of the 48 top military leaders are ex-Guardsmen. The U.S. also sets up an economic embargo of Nicaragua and pressures the IMF and the World Bank to limit or halt loans to Nicaragua.
1981
Gen. Torrijos of Panama is killed in a plane crash. There is a suspicion of CIA involvement, due to Torrijos' nationalism and friendly relations with Cuba.
1982
A coup brings Gen. Efraín Ríos Montt to power in Guatemala, and gives the Reagan administration the opportunity to increase military aid. Ríos Montt's evangelical beliefs do not prevent him from accelerating the counterinsurgency campaign.
1983
Another coup in Guatemala replaces Ríos Montt. The new President, Oscar Mejía Víctores, was trained by the U.S. and seems to have cleared his coup beforehand with U.S. authorities.
1983
U.S. troops take over tiny Granada. Rather oddly, it intervenes shortly after a coup has overthrown the previous, socialist leader. One of the justifications for the action is the building of a new airport with Cuban help, which Granada claimed was for tourism and Reagan argued was for Soviet use. Later the U.S. announces plans to finish the airport... to develop tourism.
1983
Boland Amendment prohibits CIA and Defense Dept. from spending money to overthrow the government of Nicaragua-- a law the Reagan administration cheerfully violates.
1984
CIA mines three Nicaraguan harbors. Nicaragua takes this action to the World Court, which brings an $18 billion judgment against the U.S. The U.S. refuses to recognize the Court's jurisdiction in the case.
1984
U.S. spends $10 million to orchestrate elections in El Salvador-- something of a farce, since left-wing parties are under heavy repression, and the military has already declared that it will not answer to the elected president.
1989
U.S. invades Panama to dislodge CIA boy gone wrong Manuel Noriega, an event which marks the evolution of the U.S.'s favorite excuse from Communism to drugs.
1996
The U.S. battles global Communism by extending most-favored-nation trading status for China, and tightening the trade embargo on Castro's Cuba.

Don't fall for the hype, the US wants hegemony in that region...

Edit: source (http://www.zompist.com/latam.html)

well let me add that the "coldwar" ended in 1991. Hence the need to put down commie sympathisers. Today is a different world. It isnt the world of the 18th, 19th or 20th century. I still stand by my statement that the US has no interest in overthrowing a democracy in the Americas.

well let me add that the "coldwar" ended in 1991. Hence the need to put down commie sympathisers. Today is a different world. It isnt the world of the 18th, 19th or 20th century. I still stand by my statement that the US has no interest in overthrowing a democracy in the Americas.
Then why is there US interventionism before 1946? If democratic states have nothing to fear, then why should they be so worried about Chávez, probably the most democratic president in the region?

Viva la Soviet Union of South America!

Then why is there US interventionism before 1946? If democratic states have nothing to fear, then why should they be so worried about Chávez, probably the most democratic president in the region?

prior to 1946 was due to the US policy of anti-European influence. Also flat out Business stabilisation. Again though today is different. Not the same type of things that went on in past will fly today. American and international public wont have it.

Chavez the most democratic of region? God help them. You do realise that Chavez is going to change the name of Venezuela. Can you guess the new name? Does Peoples republic of Venezuela sound harmonic to you?

I highly doubt South Americans are "Scared" of US. The only ones to worry are the ego-maniacal dictator types. The soveriegn democracies need not worry about any intervention by the US.

Tell that to Daniel Ortega. (Iran/Contra)

OK for starters Latin Americans don't like the US. Many call the always patroling US fleet "The Sharks". They don't mean it as a compliment.


The amazeing thing is how completely ignorant America's media keeps the US public about Latin America. This is probably becuase most multinational American corporations consider Central and South America its "Bitch" and they have the CIA to keep the bitch in line.

Don't underestimate Chavez or his his attraction to most of Central and South America. They're all getting tired of having their nations treated like ten dollar crack whores.

The USA is looking for allies in America, not only because of Chávez, but because a leftist wave has left American countries turning their back to the USA and looking more towards themselves for trade, policy, and general self-reliance. The recent treaty in Peru to create a United States of South America strengthens this trend. Certainly a competing power in their own hemisphere is not seen as being in the USA's best interests.

However, the USA is most worried about Mexico. The developments during this week make it an almost safe bet that leftist Andrés Manuel López Obrador will win next year's election, moving México away from the USA and closer to Cuba, Venezuela, Argentina and Brazil. Venezuela and Brazil are proving viable, Argentina, and Mexico dabbled in neoliberalist policies during the nineties and lost badly, Colombia is a toss up and Chile would be the only country in the region left to care for USA interests. What would a free, democratic, independent, and economically powerful Latin America mean for the USA?

prior to 1946 was due to the US policy of anti-European influence. Also flat out Business stabilisation. Again though today is different. Not the same type of things that went on in past will fly today. American and international public wont have it.
Please, there's always {i]some[/i] moptivation given for US actions. Underlying it all is hegemony and imperialism. Read PNAC for fuck's sake.

And anti-European influence? Yeah, it was to kick out the Europeans, and replace their imperialism with US imperialism. Fucking wonderful. These days the public just needs to be duped, and you're proving that it's possible.

Please, there's always {i]some[/i] moptivation given for US actions. Underlying it all is hegemony and imperialism. Read PNAC for fuck's sake.

And anti-European influence? Yeah, it was to kick out the Europeans, and replace their imperialism with US imperialism. Fucking wonderful. These days the public just needs to be duped, and you're proving that it's possible.

I know very well whats going on in the world. Last person to be duped by anyone is myself. Yet you can continue with your leftist rant.

prior to 1946 was due to the US policy of anti-European influence. Also flat out Business stabilisation. Again though today is different. Not the same type of things that went on in past will fly today. American and international public wont have it.

Please, give me a break. What excuse will it be now?

Chavez the most democratic of region? God help them. You do realise that Chavez is going to change the name of Venezuela. Can you guess the new name? Does Peoples republic of Venezuela sound harmonic to you?
He already did. At least you should keep yourself informed on what the hell is going on in the region. He changed it to Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela.

You know who Bolívar is, right?

I know very well whats going on in the world. Last person to be duped by anyone is myself. Yet you can continue with your leftist rant.
Yeah, jump to categorisation. I bet the boxes keep you warm...

Well, when everyone you share a continent (including S. A.) is scared shitless of you I guess you dont need friends.

Are you joking? The South Americans are too busy fighting their own govts. to concentrate on being scared of ours.

Chavez the most democratic of region? God help them. You do realise that Chavez is going to change the name of Venezuela. Can you guess the new name? Does Peoples republic of Venezuela sound harmonic to you?

Do you actually know that Chavez have won 4/5 elections and even survived a military coup thanks to the people?

Do you actually know that Chavez have won 4/5 elections and even survived a military coup thanks to the people?


I take this is the same people he shot at protesting his lay off of the oil industry. and the same people he banned from banging pots during protests(common pratice in Ven.)

I take this is the same people he shot at protesting his lay off of the oil industry. and the same people he banned from banging pots during protests(common pratice in Ven.)
The same people he gave handouts to while destroying the economy.

The same people he gave handouts to while destroying the economy.

The same people who lined up for a copy of Don Quixote... a sign of the success of his education programs.

The same people who lined up for a copy of Don Quixote... a sign of the success of his education programs.

Literacy has been better in Ven ever since 1980 just because he can continue a trend doesn't mean he caused it.

Literacy has been better in Ven ever since 1980 just because he can continue a trend doesn't mean he caused it.

But it is a sign he is moving in the right direction.

The same people he gave handouts to while destroying the economy.


You mean that economy that is growing 5% this year?

You mean that economy that is growing 5% this year?
The economy that, from 2000-2003, saw a $850 reduction in GDP per head, averaged -3% real GDP growth, an average inflation rate of 20%, and an average unemployment rate of 16%.

The economy that, from 2000-2003, saw a $850 reduction in GDP per head, averaged -3% real GDP growth, an average inflation rate of 20%, and an average unemployment rate of 16%.

The Venezuelan people were poor before Chavez took office. The statistics you are talking about only affects the 7 percent of the population who were living off the sweat of others.

The Venezuelan people were poor before Chavez took office. The statistics you are talking about only affects the 7 percent of the population who were living off the sweat of others.
You obviously don't know much. Inflation usually hurts the middle class the most, unemployment as well wouldn't apply as much to the upper class as it would to the middle and lower classes. Another statistic that would show how the poor got screwed : labor costs fell $1.11, or over 33%. Its not like the economy only affects the top 7% :rolleyes:

You obviously don't know much. Inflation usually hurts the middle class the most, unemployment as well wouldn't apply as much to the upper class as it would to the middle and lower classes. Another statistic that would show how the poor got screwed : labor costs fell $1.11, or over 33%. Its not like the economy only affects the top 7% :rolleyes:amazing..not only Kwangistar does not have a clue about SA economies...but he actually preceded his idiocy by a "you obviously dont know much"

You obviously don't know much. Inflation usually hurts the middle class the most, unemployment as well wouldn't apply as much to the upper class as it would to the middle and lower classes. Another statistic that would show how the poor got screwed : labor costs fell $1.11, or over 33%. Its not like the economy only affects the top 7% :rolleyes:

Those unemployment statistics only reveal that the government is just beginning to take account of its poor. Try to keep in mind, internal refugees and a working class population that is disenfranchised by an elitist government don't bother to fill out consensus forms.

amazing..not only Kwangistan does not have a clue about SA economies...but he actually preceded his idiocy by a "you obviously dont know much"
Is there some post count you want to get to that makes you want to spam?

Those unemployment statistics only reveal that the government is just beginning to take account of its poor. Try to keep in mind, internal refugees and a working class population that is disenfranchised by an elitist government don't bother to fill out consensus forms.
Chavez was first elected in 1998. So are you saying Chavez's government has disenfranchised the working class?

Is there some post count you want to get to that makes you want to spam?
I think ocean drive is looking for the "UBER Spam Girl" ranking.

Is there some post count you want to get to that makes you want to spam?If I had to reply everytime you make an stupid statement...my post count would be record breaking :D [/joke]

I think ocean drive is looking for the "UBER Spam Girl" ranking.
If I could pick...I woulda kept my "Pimp" title.

If I could pick I woulda kept my "Pimp" title.

Yeah me too. But damn thing changed.

Yeah me too. But damn thing changed.
other titles I liked:

"Quite Deadly"
"Deadly"
"superior gamer"

Chavez was first elected in 1998. So are you saying Chavez's government has disenfranchised the working class?


Chávez won the presidential election on December 6, 1998 by the largest percent of voters (56.2%) in four decades.

Venezuela under Chávez has started numerous social programs: Barrio Adentro, an initiative to provide free health care to the poor, Mission Robinson and Mission Sucre to increase literacy and basic education. The literacy programs are centered on learning to read and understand the Venezuelan Constitution and their inherent rights as Venezuelan citizens.

Plan Zamora enacted land reforms in Venezuelan agriculture: taxing unused landholdings, expropriating unused private lands (with compensation), and giving inheritable, unsellable land grants to small farmers and farm collectives.

Venezuela has seen a vast disinvestment in its rural areas since oil wealth was discovered; the country has an urbanization rate of more than 85% and it is a net food importer. The rationale given for this program was that it would provide incentives for the repopulation of the countryside and provide "food security" for the country by lessening dependence on foreign imports.

Chávez won the presidential election on December 6, 1998 by the largest percent of voters (56.2%) in four decades.

Venezuela under Chávez has started numerous social programs: Barrio Adentro, an initiative to provide free health care to the poor, Mission Robinson and Mission Sucre to increase literacy and basic education. The literacy programs are centered on learning to read and understand the Venezuelan Constitution and their inherent rights as Venezuelan citizens.

Plan Zamora enacted land reforms in Venezuelan agriculture: taxing unused landholdings, expropriating unused private lands (with compensation), and giving inheritable, unsellable land grants to small farmers and farm collectives.

Venezuela has seen a vast disinvestment in its rural areas since oil wealth was discovered; the country has an urbanization rate of more than 85% and it is a net food importer. The rationale given for this program was that it would provide incentives for the repopulation of the countryside and provide "food security" for the country by lessening dependence on foreign imports.
Thanks for plagarizing wikipedia. I didn't say Chavez didn't have any social programs or that he didn't have any positive effects, just that the economy under his administration has been unstable and in decline.

Thanks for plagarizing wikipedia. I didn't say Chavez didn't have any social programs or that he didn't have any positive effects, just that the economy under his administration has been unstable and in decline.


You just can't please some people...

wikipedia is not allowed anymore?

wikipedia is not allowed anymore?
Without sourcing

Thanks for plagarizing wikipedia. I didn't say Chavez didn't have any social programs or that he didn't have any positive effects, just that the economy under his administration has been unstable and in decline.

I can't plagarize wikipedia??? I feel so oppressed... wait wrong thread.

I write it off any U.S. paranoia as being some sort of rediculous throwback to the old days of the Soviet Union.

We have left leaning leaders in many countries of South America now. Brazil has Lula, Argetina has Kirchner, Chile has Lagos, and Uruguay just elected Tabare Vasquez. All of the important countries of South America, with the exception of Colombia, have leftward thinking leaderships, so I feel sort of like any kind of U.S. complaints about "troubling" developments are sort of moot.

S. America is finally finding its own way, and it's about time the U.S. realises that our neighbours to the South should be left to find their own political direction.

..with the exception of Colombia....Colombia is USAs lap dog.

Colombia is USAs lap dog.
That's an unfortunate fact that I was sort of implying.

That's an unfortunate fact that I was sort of implying.

Colombia is not an issue if the rest of the region goes left. The people do not support their government and the guerrillas are making the boldest attacks on government positions that they've made in decades. Since the late nineties they managed to negotiate a demilitarised zone that the current government has failed to take back.

Colombia is not an issue if the rest of the ...yet Colombia could be used against Venezuela...the same way the Contra was used against Nicaragua...and the same way Iraq was used against Iran.

yet Colombia could be used against Venezuela...the same way the Contra was used against Nicaragua...and the same way Iraq was used against Iran.

The U.S. has already tried to use a right winged paramilitary militia known as the AUC (Autodefensas Unidad de Colombia) in conjunction with CIA advisers to destabalize the Chavez administration. They failed. Mainly because the guerrillas occupy areas along the Colombian Venezuelan border. It is no coincidence that the FARC and the ELN (Colombia's largest guerrilla groups) have recently become more active then they have been in their fourty year history. Instead of playing cat and mouse the guerrillas have gone toe to toe with government soldiers and prevailed. This is because they know the U.S. is entrenched in Iraq and if they need to retreat they can always cross the border and resupply in Venezuela. You may or may not have heard that Chavez recently bought arms from the Russians and the AK 47 is the guerrilla weapon of choice.

...the AK 47 is the guerrilla weapon of choice.the AK is the Worlds weapon of choice.

and I think they are for the Venezuelan new peoples militias...but some will make their way to the Guerrillas.

I think Chavez is preparing for Urban warfare and Guerrilla (AKA terrorists, Insurgency, etc)...and thats what I would do if I was him.

the AK is the Worlds weapon of choice.

and I think they are for the Venezuelan new peoples militias...but some will make their way to the Guerrillas.

I think Chavez is preparing for Urban warfare and Guerrilla (AKA terrorists, Insurgency, etc)...and thats what I would do if I was him.


If you have information to the contrary please let me know, but I honestly feel that the only real threat Chavez faces is from the elites within his own country. The U.S. has bit off more than they can chew in the middle east and they cannot rely on Colombia to be their "lap dog" since the government is too busy with the guerrillas. Perhaps time will prove me wrong, but I don't foresee an all out battle in the streets, like what is happening in Iraq. And I think Chavez is too on guard to go the way of Aristeid.

Side note: The troubles the U.S. are facing in Iraq is on account of the fact that Saddam Hussein had been anticipating an American invasion since the 2000 election and reorganised his armies to train in urban guerrilla warfare while hiding large stashes of assault rifles and RPGs all over the country.

If you have information to the contrary please let me know, but I honestly feel that the only real threat Chavez faces is from the elites within his own country. The U.S. has bit off more than they can chew in the middle east and they cannot rely on Colombia to be their "lap dog" since the government is too busy with the guerrillas. Perhaps time will prove me wrong, but I don't foresee an all out battle in the streets, like what is happening in Iraq. And I think Chavez is too on guard to go the way of Aristeid.


In military terms I agree, though I do not think the Venezuelan elite have much military competence.
The long term threat to Chavez will be his own supporters when he fails to deliver all that he has promised. There is only so much that he can do with the oil profits and the situation is bad. It will take a long time for the poor to obtain a minimal life standard there, and it will not be quick enough to keep Chavez in power. I believe he will have one more term in power before being ousted by his own people at the election after next.

In military terms I agree, though I do not think the Venezuelan elite have much military competence.
The long term threat to Chavez will be his own supporters when he fails to deliver all that he has promised. There is only so much that he can do with the oil profits and the situation is bad. It will take a long time for the poor to obtain a minimal life standard there, and it will not be quick enough to keep Chavez in power. I believe he will have one more term in power before being ousted by his own people at the election after next.

Not to confuse Venezuelans with Ecuadorians, who have just booted out another corrupt President, the people of Venezuela have been waiting for a socialist leader for a long time. If you read prior postings in this thread I've provided evidence of what he has done in the past and what the oil reserves mean to the U.S.. Whether he succeeds or fails to deliver on his promises will be determined by the U.S. government's ability to destabilize his administration. In which case the elites of Venezuela will be his biggest concern.