NationStates Jolt Archive

Isnt there enough AK47's in the West Bank? Apparently not.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8FFA59AD-3260-4B78-9F8D-14A42E76F997.htm

Right on Mr. Putin!

Level that playing field...heh. In your face, Bush...!

well that's not quite leveling the playing feild. i understand he offered russian apcs... the last place i'd want to be sitting if the isrealis got a bee in their bonnet and the apaches started raining hellfire missiles. i'd rather be in an 83 datsun, easier to bail and run like hell.

The simplest means of achieving peace in that part of the middle east would probably involve giving both sides enough firepower to wipe them out of existence completely and the go ahead to do so. Mutually Assured Destruction. And even if that doesn't ensure the peace, you can bet that it soon will some 20 minutes after the missiles have left the silos. No more people in the middle east = peace.

well that's not quite leveling the playing feild. i understand he offered russian apcs... the last place i'd want to be sitting if the isrealis got a bee in their bonnet and the apaches started raining hellfire missiles. i'd rather be in an 83 datsun, easier to bail and run like hell.

It's a start, anyway.

Right on Mr. Putin!

Level that playing field...heh. In your face, Bush...!Wait, so the way to achieve peace is by encouraging more violence? that makes.....so much sense.

Face it, the Palestinians are not going to come close the the military ability of Israel anytime soon, Russia or no Russia. Giving them weapons is only going to allow for the killing of more people in the meanwhile.

Wait, so the way to achieve peace is by encouraging more violence? that makes.....so much sense.

Face it, the Palestinians are not going to come close the the military ability of Israel anytime soon, Russia or no Russia. Giving them weapons is only going to allow for the killing of more people in the meanwhile.

So the Israelis can't kill them that easy any more?

Not that bad.

So the Israelis can't kill them that easy any more?

Not that bad.

Yeah those punks in the Israeli armed forces might think twice about plugging some Palestinian kid throwing rocks at their tank if they know there's Russian guns pointing at 'em.

Kill for PEACE!

So the Israelis can't kill them that easy any more?

Not that bad.How very simple. If Israel wanted "to kill them" they could do it right here, right now. CLEARLY that is not the aim sane members of each side have in mind. Security measures=/= the desire to eliminate a nation.
The disengagement plan is going forward, and progress will be taken from that point. The peace process is more or less on the rails at the moment; why distrupt?

All Putin wants is to re-establish some sort of political influance that he doesn't actually have a hope in hell of gaining. His benevolence has little to with the wellfare of either side, but rather his own misguided ambition.

Yeah those punks in the Israeli armed forces might think twice about plugging some Palestinian kid throwing rocks at their tank if they know there's Russian guns pointing at 'em.

Kill for PEACE!
i'm not sure the russian military could take on the isrealis. they have first order weapons systems, excellent training and leadership, and possibly a more modern and function nuclear option. what the russians would be likely to offer the palestinians would be of very limited use against the isreali heavy weapons. like the iraqis vs. the us they are probably better off using assymetrical tactics and weapons in any conflict. any medium or heavy russian weapons would just be target prectice for the isrealis like saddams armor was for the americans. its only real use would be to make the palestinean security forces better armed than the militant groups, provided the security forces could keep their weapons out of the militants hands.

I find it EXTREMELY odd that NDT and ER are talking as if there's going to be some full-scale war between two military forces here. That's obviously not the case.
This is NOT a case of the U.S. + Israel Vs. Palestine + Russia. No.

Having actually read the article now, they are merely talking about training and equipping the Palestinian security forces, whose main role is to fight terrorism, not Israel.

You guys are so damn eager for drama that you miss the point. Israel could easily anihalate any such "security forces" if they posed a threat. They do not. It's terrorost that pose a threat, and they are the ones both forces are fighting against.

How very simple. If Israel wanted "to kill them" they could do it right here, right now. CLEARLY that is not the aim sane members of each side have in mind. Security measures=/= the desire to eliminate a nation.
The disengagement plan is going forward, and progress will be taken from that point. The peace process is more or less on the rails at the moment; why distrupt?

All Putin wants is to re-establish some sort of political influance that he doesn't actually have a hope in hell of gaining. His benevolence has little to with the wellfare of either side, but rather his own misguided ambition. well the apcs might have a valid police function, and not much threat to the idf provided they weren't armed with anything more than heavy machine guns. isreal should only really be worried if the russians were selling them their most modern rpgs and shoulder launched anti tank missiles. light armor really wouldn't have much practicle use against any serious isreali military system. they might be able to run a roadblock or two with one, or attack a check point, but they have limited capacity to do that now and an armored personel carrier really wouldn't increase their combat effectiveness much. you don't see the insurgents in iraq trying to use old iraqi armor against the americans, its slow, and easy to identify and destroy with superior american equipment.

well the apcs might have a valid police function, and not much threat to the idf provided they weren't armed with anything more than heavy machine guns. isreal should only really be worried if the russians were selling them their most modern rpgs and shoulder launched anti tank missiles. light armor really wouldn't have much practicle use against any serious isreali military system. they might be able to run a roadblock or two with one, or attack a check point, but they have limited capacity to do that now and an armored personel carrier really wouldn't increase their combat effectiveness much. you don't see the insurgents in iraq trying to use old iraqi armor against the americans, its slow, and easy to identify and destroy with superior american equipment.Again, Israel is not, and will not be fighting the palestinian security forces. There is a level of cooperation, in fact. When the Palestinian get their own state, well that'll be a different issue. However, I seriously doubt that such a future state will be permitted to maitain a strong military, at least untill they've proved themselves peaceful, democratic, etc.

I find it EXTREMELY odd that NDT and ER are talking as if there's going to be some full-scale war between two military forces here. That's obviously not the case.
This is NOT a case of the U.S. + Israel Vs. Palestine + Russia. No.

Having actually read the article now, they are merely talking about training and equipping the Palestinian security forces, whose main role is to fight terrorism, not Israel.

You guys are so damn eager for drama that you miss the point. Israel could easily anihalate any such "security forces" if they posed a threat. They do not. It's terrorost that pose a threat, and they are the ones both forces are fighting against.
exactly, there is nothing the russians are planning to give the palestinians that's combat effective against the isrealis, its only effective at controlling lightly armed militants. i didn't mean to imply russia was going to fight isreal, merely that russians best equipment(which i doubt they would give to the palestinians) is generally inferior to the isreali equipment, even when used by competently trained russian troops(which the pa aren't).

okay then, :cool: You military buffs never cease to amaze me.

Again, Israel is not, and will not be fighting the palestinian security forces. There is a level of cooperation, in fact. When the Palestinian get their own state, well that'll be a different issue. However, I seriously doubt that such a future state will be permitted to maitain a strong military, at least untill they've proved themselves peaceful, democratic, etc.
it would be a serious waste of resources for a palestinian state to maintain a strong military. the divide nature of the territory makes it indefensible against isreal or arab invasion. isreali strength is to great to be matched by the entire arab world, in fact in the last 20 years most of them have stopped trying. palestine also doesn't need to protect itself from an arab invasion because isreal would certainly respond to any such attempt. all palestine really needs is a professional police force and a brigade or two of heavily armed elite police units for sub state aggressions against them. cheap and efficient and not a drain on their fledgling economy.

I do have a feeling Russia will try to invade Israel sometime in the future. The Bible does sort of prophesize something of the sort, and says that Israel will win. Just food for thought.

I do have a feeling Russia will try to invade Israel sometime in the future. The Bible does sort of prophesize something of the sort, and says that Israel will win. Just food for thought.*coughcough* No. just no. That snack didn't last me long.

I do have a feeling Russia will try to invade Israel sometime in the future. The Bible does sort of prophesize something of the sort, and says that Israel will win. Just food for thought.
russia had a tough time invading itself in the chechen war, they're a ways away from any military adventure outside the sphere of the old soviet union.

Ohh how I love this sensationalist idiocy. Do you people ever read beyond the catchy headline? Did anyone here ask themselves what exactly Putin is offering?

From the article:

"We will give the Palestinian leadership technical help and deliveries of equipment and training," Putin said, while promising that aviation technology and helicopters would come first, along with law enforcement training in Moscow.

From the more elaborate article on the Israeli website Ynet:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3078950,00.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin said at a Ramallah press conference on Friday afternoon that his country was prepared to give the Palestinian Authority defense aid in the form of transport helicopters and training equipment.

"If we are waiting for Chairman Abbas to fight terror, it's clear that he cannot do it with his current resources,” Putin said. "We going to provide technical aid, equipment and trainers. We are going to provide them with helcopters and communications equipment."

Transport helicopters, technical aid, training equipment, communications. Who, pray tell, has said anything about weapons?

P.S. Oh and btw, the Palestinians do have APCs and stuff like 0.50 BMG heavy machine guns, and even some police helicopters. They were supplied to them them right after the Oslo accord in the early 90-s, together with some 40 000 firearms (mainly Ingram SMGs and Ak47 rifles).

perhaps arming the Palestinians means arming them (palestinian security Forces/Police/Whatever) to stop the terrorists in their own country, not to fight Israel.

Ohh how I love this sensationalist idiocy. Do you people ever read beyond the catchy headline? Did anyone here ask themselves what exactly Putin is offering?

From the article:

"We will give the Palestinian leadership technical help and deliveries of equipment and training," Putin said, while promising that aviation technology and helicopters would come first, along with law enforcement training in Moscow.

From the more elaborate article on the Israeli website Ynet:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3078950,00.html

Russian President Vladimir Putin said at a Ramallah press conference on Friday afternoon that his country was prepared to give the Palestinian Authority defense aid in the form of transport helicopters and training equipment.

"If we are waiting for Chairman Abbas to fight terror, it's clear that he cannot do it with his current resources,” Putin said. "We going to provide technical aid, equipment and trainers. We are going to provide them with helcopters and communications equipment."

Transport helicopters, technical aid, training equipment, communications. Who, pray tell, has said anything about weapons?

P.S. Oh and btw, the Palestinians do have APCs and stuff like 0.50 BMG heavy machine guns, and even some police helicopters. They were supplied to them them right after the Oslo accord in the early 90-s, together with some 40 000 firearms (mainly Ingram SMGs and Ak47 rifles).

i'm sure some report i heard mentioned a russian offer of apcs

perhaps arming the Palestinians means arming them (palestinian security Forces/Police/Whatever) to stop the terrorists in their own country, not to fight Israel.
Perhaps- but they have this odd memory problem, y'know. They tend to forget what they were given these guns for, and use them in all sort of inappropriate ways- either against Israeli civilians or against their very own Palestinian civilians. The use of guns in internal fighting is so widespread that the Palestinians themselves now refer to it as the "intra-fada" or "chaos of weapons".

http://www.phrmg.org/intrafada.htm

Perhaps- but they have this odd memory problem, y'know. They tend to forget what they were given these guns for, and use them in all sort of inappropriate ways- either against Israeli civilians or against their very own Palestinian civilians. The use of guns in internal fighting is so widespread that the Palestinians themselves now refer to it as the "intra-fada" or "chaos of weapons".

Hey Womble, question for ya. Do you yourself see any real way of getting the Palestinian Authority some semblence of actual authority? I must admit I haven't looked in exhuastive detail into the problem, but every time this issue comes up I don't hear of any solutions to it.

I cannot forsee any real solutions that don't involve some heavy-handed third-party intervention myself. I don't like that idea, but I'm at a loss to see any other way. How about yourself? You're something of an insider and have repeatedly shown yourself knowledgeable in this area.

Can you think of any way to get the Palestians ready for full self-governance within ten years? Any programs of reform, strengthening of infrastructure, disarming of key groups, etc that would produce such results? Any plans you endorse that perhaps I haven't heard of?

Hey Womble, question for ya. Do you yourself see any real way of getting the Palestinian Authority some semblence of actual authority? I must admit I haven't looked in exhuastive detail into the problem, but every time this issue comes up I don't hear of any solutions to it.

I cannot forsee any real solutions that don't involve some heavy-handed third-party intervention myself. I don't like that idea, but I'm at a loss to see any other way. How about yourself? You're something of an insider and have repeatedly shown yourself knowledgeable in this area.

Can you think of any way to get the Palestians ready for full self-governance within ten years? Any programs of reform, strengthening of infrastructure, disarming of key groups, etc that would produce such results? Any plans you endorse that perhaps I haven't heard of?
Frankly, I am no quick-fixer and I do not beleive there is this wonderful simple and easy solution just waiting to be found. Simple solutions are for simple minds. The problem we are talking about is extremely complex, and the solution to it would also have to be complex.

However, the general direction is quite clear. UN or international recognition does not a state make. What makes a state is a nation that behaves like one. I would say it involves three main requirements:

1)The Palestinians must make their main political objective clear beyond any doubt. Simply put, both Israel, the world and the Palestinians themselves should know exactly what they want to achieve. At the moment they voice two contradictory objectives- they talk about creating an independent Palestinian state alongside Israel, yet at the same time keep calling to "free Palestine from the river to the sea"- that is, to destroy Israel completely. Even the moderates among them voice a second objective that goes beyond statehood alongside Israel- the return of the "refugees". This makes it impossible to figure out what the true Palestinian aspirations actually are, everyone interprets them the way it suits their agenda. And if you don't know what they really want- how can you give it to them?
2) The Palestinian demands must be ones that Israel can afford to satisfy. Let's take, as a crude historical analogy, the Algerian struggle for independence from the French. Independence was a demand that, however painful its satisfaction may have been to many Frenchmen, was still a demand that the French could afford to pay. The independence of Algeria was all about Algeria; it required no drastic alteration in the life of the average Frenchmen, provided he lived in France, and not Algeria. The French were not required to give up France, nor allow millions of hostile Algerians into France. The same should be true about the Palestinian demands: they should not threaten the existence of normal functioning of the state of Israel. The demand for the return of the "refugees", for example, would have to be discarded.
3)There must be a guarantee that once Israel agrees to the Palestinian demands, any and all hostility will stop. That can only be achieved if there is a strong, unified Palestinian national leadership capable of enforcing the calm by any means necessery. There should never be doubt as for who really dictates the Palestinian agenda- their political leadership or the armed gangs. Right now, with Abbas trying to sweet talk Hamas into not blowing things up for another week or two, it is the Hamas who holds the leash and makes demands. Simply put, Abbas should not be afraid of confronting Hamas with armed force in order to enforce his authority. If he cannot do so, he simply isn't the right man for the job, and we should talk to the one who really does have the power.

Oh and building. Not blowing things up, but building, building and building. That's what the Zionist movement was doing at the time. They've built a de-facto state with its own economy and infrastructure long before they were recognized as a state. The Palestinians, at the moment, rely on Israel for everything, from supplying electricity to maintaining sewer systems. (Which is one of the reasons I want Israel out of the territories- my tax money is being flushed down Ramallah sewers :mad: ).

I don't find third party interference to be of any real help. Third parties pursue their own objectives that do not necesserily coincide with wanting the conflict resolved. The US is looking after their strategic interests, Europe tries to earn points in the eyes of the Arab League and satisfy their already huge bulk of Muslim voters, Russia wants to use the negotiations as a way to come back into the big diplomatic game... You won't find an honest third party broker. Ever.

i'm sure some report i heard mentioned a russian offer of apcs

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4496273.stm

There was no mention of an offer to supply armoured personnel carriers to the Palestinians, which Israel has strongly opposed.

Wait, so the way to achieve peace is by encouraging more violence? that makes.....so much sense.

Face it, the Palestinians are not going to come close the the military ability of Israel anytime soon, Russia or no Russia. Giving them weapons is only going to allow for the killing of more people in the meanwhile.

how is it that the americans can kill half a million in the middel east, claiming to be settilng a score with "terrorists" who they trained, and then got killed. and now you say that palestine has no right to defend its peopel from the psat nad present oppression of the israeli invaders. no moer israel+no more america = peace

Frankly, I am no quick-fixer and I do not beleive there is this wonderful simple and easy solution just waiting to be found. Simple solutions are for simple minds. The problem we are talking about is extremely complex, and the solution to it would also have to be complex.

-SNIP-


Hmm...You've given me a lot to think about...thanks! I get the feeling I'll be mulling over that one for a few days. I appreciate you taking the time to spell all that out. If you think about anything further to add, lemme know.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4496273.stm

There was no mention of an offer to supply armoured personnel carriers to the Palestinians, which Israel has strongly opposed.
ah maybe i heard of isreals objection to apcs and thought they had been offered. i think the first report i heard of this was on NPR in the car, it easy to miss details that way... my bad.

well that's not quite leveling the playing feild. i understand he offered russian apcs... the last place i'd want to be sitting if the isrealis got a bee in their bonnet and the apaches started raining hellfire missiles. i'd rather be in an 83 datsun, easier to bail and run like hell.


Good point. I think putin is secretly trying to make it easier to kill the rebs