NationStates Jolt Archive

The Mexican government, in response to the "minuteman" project, has started to rout illegal immigrants to less heavily patroled border crossing points. It's basically encouraging it's citizens to violate US law and illegally cross a national border. I personally think that their policy is wrong, and would like to see someone put a stop to it. What are your opinions on illegal immigration? Poll is on the way.

The Mexican government, in response to the "minuteman" project, has started to rout illegal immigrants to less heavily patroled border crossing points. It's basically encouraging it's citizens to violate US law and illegally cross a national border. I personally think that their policy is wrong, and would like to see someone put a stop to it. What are your opinions on illegal immigration? Poll is on the way.
Wait....

Mexico is helping people escape their country? Why?

Vincente Fox once told Governor Bush, to his face, "As long as there's jobs in the US that your people are not willing to do, I will continue to encourage my people to go get them."

Bush's response? He relaxed border patrols. The one good thing he ever did.

I'm from AZ and grew up basically in the front lines of the illegal immigrations. Personally I consider any American who helps them out to be a traitor and should be shipped back to Mexico with the illegals. And as for the Mexican government, maybe they should be spending their time making their country less a S%*@-hole instead of trying to send their waste over here

The Mexican government, in response to the "minuteman" project, has started to rout illegal immigrants to less heavily patroled border crossing points. It's basically encouraging it's citizens to violate US law and illegally cross a national border. I personally think that their policy is wrong, and would like to see someone put a stop to it. What are your opinions on illegal immigration? Poll is on the way.


I'm against ILLEGAL immigration. Its putting a tremendous strain on the US. I support the minuteman project and hope they will have enough honest and level headed volunteers to adapt to any shift in illegal crossings.

Wait....

Mexico is helping people escape their country? Why?
I'm not sure. I think they're motivated by the influx of cash provided by those who go to the USA to work illegally.

Wait....

Mexico is helping people escape their country? Why?
Because the current Mexican administration is headed by brainless morons with no imagination and absolutely no idea on the nature of the problems and much less how to start fixing them.

Fox is one of the most incompetent presidents Mexico has ever had.

Vincente Fox once told Governor Bush, to his face, "As long as there's jobs in the US that your people are not willing to do, I will continue to encourage my people to go get them."

Bush's response? He relaxed border patrols. The one good thing he ever did.


My response to that is as long as we give free hand outs with welfare, there will be jobs American are unwilling to work. Get rid of the handouts and I bet you will see a whole lot of people willing to pick strawberries or clean houses. If they would rather starve then work, that's just as good.

Vincente Fox once told Governor Bush, to his face, "As long as there's jobs in the US that your people are not willing to do, I will continue to encourage my people to go get them."

Bush's response? He relaxed border patrols. The one good thing he ever did.
I don't see it as a good thing. Illegal immigrants just cause wages to drop. Nobody in the USA wants to wash dishes for $5/hour or pick fruit for a similar wage, but if there were no illegal aliens to take the job the wages would rise, or technology would be developed to compensate for the lack of available workers. Either one would likely put more US citizens to work.

If they would rather starve then work, that's just as good.

I find it sad that you have a "work or starve" outlook toward people.

Remember kids: How you judge, so shall you be judged.

The Mexican government, in response to the "minuteman" project, has started to rout illegal immigrants to less heavily patroled border crossing points. It's basically encouraging it's citizens to violate US law and illegally cross a national border. I personally think that their policy is wrong, and would like to see someone put a stop to it. What are your opinions on illegal immigration? Poll is on the way.
Ah, you already know my opinion.

Open the borders. The market will take care of population fluctuations.

I find it sad that you have a "work or starve" outlook toward people.

Remember kids: How you judge, so shall you be judged.

Well the way I see it, those on welfare are taking money from my family so I can feed their lasy asses. We now have 2nd and 3rd gen Welfare families, why are we having to pay for people who will never contribute to our society? Yes, if you are physically or mentally disabled, we should help, but if your idea of a promotion is to pop out another brat so you can get a bigger check, I say you better start cleanin sewers or somethin cause I am Not gonna keep payin for your ass.

Because the current Mexican administration is headed by brainless morons with no imagination and absolutely no idea on the nature of the problems and much less how to start fixing them.

Fox is one of the most incompetent presidents Mexico has ever had.
Yeah...we had hopes when there was finally someone in power outside of the PRI...but he's just as hidebound and actionless as the rest of them.

He's one tall fucker...not good for much more than standing out in a crowd.

Protectionism in all its forms is wrong. If this is protection of the local labour market by restricting movement of non criminal workers across borders, then this is equally as wrong as the EU subsidizing Sugar or the USA subsidizing cotton was. The argument that they are criminals as they are working illegally is a non starter as working is not in itself illegal. What makes it illegal is the protectionism.

There should be border controls, not to limit the migration of workers, but to restrict the flight of criminals, and that is all.

Well the way I see it, those on welfare are taking money from my family so I can feed their lasy asses. We now have 2nd and 3rd gen Welfare families, why are we having to pay for people who will never contribute to our society? Yes, if you are physically or mentally disabled, we should help, but if your idea of a promotion is to pop out another brat so you can get a bigger check, I say you better start cleanin sewers or somethin cause I am Not gonna keep payin for your ass.
Wow, I guess Christian charity is alive and well after all. I guess those beatitudes Jesus was talking about are wrong?

Ah, you already know my opinion.

Open the borders. The market will take care of population fluctuations.
The problem with that solution is that it will spread out the wealth, but since the poor outnumber the wealthy by a very big margin, it will be spread too thin.

I think that regions have to first be brought up to a certain level of economic development and then gradually open the borders to the population.

Ideally anyone should be able to live wherever they please, but it shouldn't be that they're forced to leave some place for economic reasons.

Well the way I see it, those on welfare are taking money from my family so I can feed their lasy asses... cause I am Not gonna keep payin for your ass.

Oh look, another confused self-proclaimed martyr who is apparently the only one to pay taxes. Yes thats right people, immigration is bad because Renshahi pays taxes. :( My heart goes out to you, friend.

Well the way I see it, those on welfare are taking money from my family so I can feed their lasy asses. We now have 2nd and 3rd gen Welfare families, why are we having to pay for people who will never contribute to our society? Yes, if you are physically or mentally disabled, we should help, but if your idea of a promotion is to pop out another brat so you can get a bigger check, I say you better start cleanin sewers or somethin cause I am Not gonna keep payin for your ass.
Before you just start spewing hateful propoganda, perhaps you should educated yourself a little more? "Pop out another brat so you can get a bigger check"? Like it's a money-making venture to have children? Clearly you have none.

My two cents.

First, before anybody says anything about racism or something stupid as such, my grandmother lives here, legally, from Mexico. My girlfriend(soon to be wife) imigrated legally from Africa.

First, I think employers who knowingly hire an illegal, eg no SS card or the like, should face stiff penalties AND jail time.

Second, I think the naturalization laws should change so an illegal can't come here just to give birth.

Third, ALL support for illegals should cease as of NOW. Kick the kids out of school, deport the families. Yes, it is harsh, but they are screwing up things for honest hard working families.

Now, don't think I'm heartless and against imigration. I love my grandma and my gf very much. But, there is a right way and a wrong way to do this. If you want over here, then do it properly. Get your papers, get permission, then welcom to America. I support LEGAL imigration.

PS To quote Ted Nugent, "If you can't speak the language, get the &$^% out of the country."

PSS Political asylum is still a legal mode of getting in the US, even if just temporary.

Protectionism in all its forms is wrong. If this is protection of the local labour market by restricting movement of non criminal workers across borders, then this is equally as wrong as the EU subsidizing Sugar or the USA subsidizing cotton was. The argument that they are criminals as they are working illegally is a non starter as working is not in itself illegal. What makes it illegal is the protectionism.

There should be border controls, not to limit the migration of workers, but to restrict the flight of criminals, and that is all.

I agree 100%.

But too many people are, apparently, worried sick that their job at the strawberry farm is threatened....

The argument that they are criminals as they are working illegally is a non starter as working is not in itself illegal. What makes it illegal is the protectionism.

There should be border controls, not to limit the migration of workers, but to restrict the flight of criminals, and that is all.
Once again, Alien has said it better than I ever could.

Well the way I see it, those on welfare are taking money from my family so I can feed their lasy asses. We now have 2nd and 3rd gen Welfare families, why are we having to pay for people who will never contribute to our society? Yes, if you are physically or mentally disabled, we should help, but if your idea of a promotion is to pop out another brat so you can get a bigger check, I say you better start cleanin sewers or somethin cause I am Not gonna keep payin for your ass.
And you, of course, have proof that such abuses are widespread (30%+), right?

Oh look, another confused self-proclaimed martyr who is apparently the only one to pay taxes. Yes thats right people, immigration is bad because Renshahi pays taxes. :( My heart goes out to you, friend.
I actually suspect he isn't yet paying taxes, just that his parents are. I apologise if my assumption is not correct.

My two cents.

First, before anybody says anything about racism or something stupid as such, my grandmother lives here, legally, from Mexico. My girlfriend(soon to be wife) imigrated legally from Africa.

First, I think employers who knowingly hire an illegal, eg no SS card or the like, should face stiff penalties AND jail time.

Second, I think the naturalization laws should change so an illegal can't come here just to give birth.

Third, ALL support for illegals should cease as of NOW. Kick the kids out of school, deport the families. Yes, it is harsh, but they are screwing up things for honest hard working families.

Now, don't think I'm heartless and against imigration. I love my grandma and my gf very much. But, there is a right way and a wrong way to do this. If you want over here, then do it properly. Get your papers, get permission, then welcom to America. I support LEGAL imigration.

PS To quote Ted Nugent, "If you can't speak the language, get the &$^% out of the country."

PSS Political asylum is still a legal mode of getting in the US, even if just temporary.

Honest working people are illegal immigrants. Our discriminatory immigration system makes them illegal. Destroy the system, destroy the problem. Unlimited immigration with only exclusions for national security, none of this quota crap.

The problem with that solution is that it will spread out the wealth, but since the poor outnumber the wealthy by a very big margin, it will be spread too thin.

I think that regions have to first be brought up to a certain level of economic development and then gradually open the borders to the population.

Ideally anyone should be able to live wherever they please, but it shouldn't be that they're forced to leave some place for economic reasons.
I agree

Yeah...we had hopes when there was finally someone in power outside of the PRI...but he's just as hidebound and actionless as the rest of them.

Getting rid of the PRI was a good thing. I didn't expect Fox to be a good president, since it has always been obvious he is not a very accomplished politician or statesman. But, boy, did he exceed everyone's expectations!!

Before you just start spewing hateful propoganda, perhaps you should educated yourself a little more? "Pop out another brat so you can get a bigger check"? Like it's a money-making venture to have children? Clearly you have none.
Actually, I have two kids. As for being educated on the subject, I know it very well. I grew up on the cusp of needing welfare. Single parent household kinda thing. Instead of accepting a handout, my mom got two jobs. When I got old enough, I got a job as well to contribute. And instead of accepting what I was given, I worked through college and made my own way, If she could make it with three kids and I can do it with 2 and a wife, then there is no excuse for a healthy person not to.

Getting rid of the PRI was a good thing. I didn't expect Fox to be a good president, since it has always been obvious he is not a very accomplished politician or statesman. But, boy, did he exceed everyone's expectations!!
:D

I'm from AZ and grew up basically in the front lines of the illegal immigrations. Personally I consider any American who helps them out to be a traitor and should be shipped back to Mexico with the illegals. And as for the Mexican government, maybe they should be spending their time making their country less a S%*@-hole instead of trying to send their waste over here

I agree. If the Mexicans want to immigrate, they should do it the legal way. They should locate all illegal Mexicans in the United States right now and send them back. They should also build a 30 foot stone wall across the entire Mexican-United States border. Just a suggestion. GO MINUTE-MEN!
:mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper:

Actually, I have two kids. As for being educated on the subject, I know it very well. I grew up on the cusp of needing welfare. Single parent household kinda thing. Instead of accepting a handout, my mom got two jobs. When I got old enough, I got a job as well to contribute. And instead of accepting what I was given, I worked through college and made my own way, If she could make it with three kids and I can do it with 2 and a wife, then there is no excuse for a healthy person not to.
So...do your two kids entitle you to some extra benefits? Because mine cost quite a bit to feed and clothe.

Were you in school when your mom started working two jobs? Who raised you while she was gone? Did she have the money for daycare, or did a relative watch you? Did she have a mental illness? Did she leave her husband, only to find that she had never built up credit, had little education or opportunities, and that her wage wouldn't even cover the most basic of expenses?

The instances of 'welfare bums' is very low. VERY LOW. Most people go on welfare or other social assistance programs for limited time periods. Find some facts to back your story up that abuse is rife in the system.

I agree. If the Mexicans want to immigrate, they should do it the legal way. They should locate all illegal Mexicans in the United States right now and send them back. They should also build a 30 foot stone wall across the entire Mexican-United States border. Just a suggestion. GO MINUTE-MEN!
:mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper: :mp5: :sniper:
RAWR. LETS SHOOT THE WETBACKS TOO!!!! THEY'RE ALL EITHER ILLEGALS OR WELFARE QUEENS!!!!

Illegal immigrants -----> :-o :mp5: :mp5:

Hmm. So it's not just the UK that suffers from hopeless misconceptions of immigration, then?

Like it or not, immigration will only increase and the fortress approach simply won't work.

Hmm. So it's not just the UK that suffers from hopeless misconceptions of immigration, then?

Like it or not, immigration will only increase and the fortress approach simply won't work.
And it will tend to go down/not stay for so long with open boarders as people come, work for five or so years, and leave having made lots of money (relatively). Case in point: Puerto Rico.

Sure Mexicans work hard but the drain on the US economy far outweighs their financial output. How many dishes have to washed at $5.15/hr to pay for the damages when he rear ends someone in his unregistered car with no insurance? They other insurance company has to pay and pass that on to their customers. The hospital has to pass on the deadbeats expenses onto other customers.

We educate them, we medicate them at our own expense.

I remember hearing about a group of dolphins in Texas who had been fed so often by tourists that two generations of dolphins had not been taught to hunt for fish by their dolphin parents. Are people that different? America keeps feeding fish when we need to teach someone how to make a fishing pole. Welfare reinforces the subtle racism of lowered expectations.

Sure Mexicans work hard but the drain on the US economy far outweighs their financial output. How many dishes have to washed at $5.15/hr to pay for the damages when he rear ends someone in his unregistered car with no insurance? They other insurance company has to pay and pass that on to their customers. The hospital has to pass on the deadbeats expenses onto other customers.

We educate them, we medicate them at our own expense.

I remember hearing about a group of dolphins in Texas who had been fed so often by tourists that two generations of dolphins had not been taught to hunt for fish by their dolphin parents. Are people that different? America keeps feeding fish when we need to teach someone how to make a fishing pole. Welfare reinforces the subtle racism of lowered expectations.
The average immigrant generates a bonus for the United States of about three hundred thousand dollars over the course of their life.

I remember hearing about a group of dolphins in Texas who had been fed so often by tourists that two generations of dolphins had not been taught to hunt for fish by their dolphin parents. Are people that different? America keeps feeding fish when we need to teach someone how to make a fishing pole. Welfare reinforces the subtle racism of lowered expectations.
Quite equating immigration with welfare.

Illegal immigrants work like dogs, have little protection, are not guaranteed a minimum wage, and the threat of deportation does wonders to overcome any ideas they might have about asking for help. Welfare dependency is an overinflated notion, and is a different issue than immigration.

I'm not seeing $1million dollars of benefit from a minimum or below minimum wage job. Besides, it's what they cost the US over their lifetime. They do not and cannot pay their own way.

If Illegals are treated as second class citizens, don't encourage them to come when the situation is not going to change. Tell them to stay in Mexico where they are first class citizens.

I'm not seeing $1million dollars of benefit from a minimum or below minimum wage job. Besides, it's what they cost the US over their lifetime. They do not and cannot pay their own way.

"The difficulty is to reconcile economic reality with political reality. Most economists believe immigration is an economic plus, not least because most immigrants arrive as young and healthy adults. Taking the difference between taxes paid and benefits received by immigrants, the National Research Council reported in 1997 that there was a “significant positive gain” of up to $10 billion a year to native Americans...In 2002 the President's Council of Economic Advisers put the gain at up to $14 billion a year....Paradoxically, the best solution might well be to relax, not tighten, the restrictions on immigration. The libertarian-minded Cato Institute argues that when barriers to entry are low, migration becomes a circular process. Under the bracero (strong arm or labourer) programme that ran from 1942 to 1964, Mexican workers entered and left the American labour market almost at will (albeit under deplorable working conditions). By contrast, when barriers are high, there is every incentive to come and then stay.

Using as his example Puerto Rico, which like Mexico is poor but which, unlike Mexico, has no immigration barrier to the American mainland, Cato's Daniel Griswold notes that during the 1980s, 46% of the Puerto Ricans who moved to the mainland stayed for less than two years. By the 1990s “out-migration had stopped completely, despite persistently high unemployment.” Legalising Mexican migration, says Mr Griswold, would at a stroke “bring a huge underground market into the open” and improve working conditions for millions of the low-skilled."


From the Economist, Mar 10th 2005

I'm not seeing $1million dollars of benefit from a minimum or below minimum wage job.
Because you have no concept of economics. People work, they pay for goods, money flows into the domestic economy. Even when these people are sending some of the money back to families in Mexico, the biggest chunk stays in the US. More people=more need for services=more jobs=more money flowing into the economy etc.

Besides, it's what they cost the US over their lifetime. They do not and cannot pay their own way.
Right. They come to the US, work, but never pay for the food they eat, for rent or clothes or any goods or services. They just come, and live on welfare???

Maybe we could consider sharing this hardworking and relatively inexpensive workforce.
I propose that the US begin sending 30% of the illegal immigrants to Canada. After all,they are a neighbor on this continent too. There is plenty of unskilled labor needed there. Another 30% could be sent accross the pond to England/Europe. There is no reason the US should be keeping this work force to itself. Keep in mind, these workers work for cash and will not pay any taxes whatsoever-income,flat or otherwise. They will only pay sales tax.They will also require medical care in the event of accident or illness, but you cannot bill them for this.

Make no mistake- I know for a fact that most of these persons are hard workers. Personal experience-I know a group that work full time in a tire shop all day, then walk two miles to a diner and work there till late at night. I dont question their ambition or work ethic.

If Illegals are treated as second class citizens, don't encourage them to come when the situation is not going to change. Tell them to stay in Mexico where they are first class citizens.
Actually, they're third class citizens in Mexico. And the natives are like fourth class.

By the way...most immigrants would be happy to work a few years in the US, then go home. Despite what most people seem to think, few people hate their homes so much that they never want to go back. Unless there are political issues that have forced them out (and I include civil conflict), most people want to live in the place they were born.

Actually, they're third class citizens in Mexico. And the natives are like fourth class.
Exactly. In fact, why don't you (Matchopolis) go to Mexico, where you will likely be treated better than the Mexicans, for the simple fact that you speak English, and are not mestizo. Sadly, that's often the way it is.

If Illegals are treated as second class citizens, don't encourage them to come when the situation is not going to change. Tell them to stay in Mexico where they are first class citizens.


The ones I know will return to Mexico sometime in the future as 1st class citizens. They are sending money home and hope to open a fruit/produce market with the wages they make here. I can only hope that this works, that they are able to support and raise their families and maybe hire their countrymen to work at this business and pay them enough to support their families. maybe this will work.

By the way...most immigrants would be happy to work a few years in the US, then go home. Despite what most people seem to think, few people hate their homes so much that they never want to go back. Unless there are political issues that have forced them out (and I include civil conflict), most people want to live in the place they were born.


I know this to be true from my experience. They will work here a few years to get enough $$ to start a market, construction or trucking co in Mexico.
Some of them here will live in a small apartment or house-like 15 at a time. They share beds. They all work at least one job-many two. They share all costs and expenses of rent, utilities etc... They hope to put in 5 or 10 years of serious work here, then return home to a higher standard of living.
Its kinda like working in the northeast US your whole life, then retiring to the southeast or southwest where the cost of living and property tax is substantially lower.

The average immigrant generates a bonus for the United States of about three hundred thousand dollars over the course of their life.
Legal or illegal immigrants?

Don't US citizens working in the USA generate more of a bonus?

Living in the American South, I am surrounded by illegal Mexicans. You can drive about fifteen minutes across town and find 10 or more living in a two bedroom apartment. Anything they buy is from yard sales or fenced merchandise. They are excellent scroungers.

In their country they are thrid class citizens. That system didn't work so don't import it. In the South we are in a cultural war. We are told we are closed minded because I refuse to muddle through pigeon Spanish with a Mexican FUGITIVE standing in my business complaining because I haven't hired someone to cater to one who refuses to be a part of the community. I do not want the culture of the barrio in my neighborhood.

I do like the idea of busing illegals to the Canadian border.

Don't US citizens working in the USA generate more of a bonus?
There you are. Legalize them, make them citizens and they will generate more of a bonus. Problem solved.

Hmm. So it's not just the UK that suffers from hopeless misconceptions of immigration, then?

Like it or not, immigration will only increase and the fortress approach simply won't work.


The fortress approach is working vey well between North and South Korea. There is no immigration there whatsoever and hasnt been for a long time.

Living in the American South, I am surrounded by illegal Mexicans. You can drive about fifteen minutes across town and find 10 or more living in a two bedroom apartment. Anything they buy is from yard sales or fenced merchandise. They are excellent scroungers.
Christ...you follow them around all day to make sure they never buy anything new? In any case, they are STILL contributing to the economy if they buy second hand. I also call bull on the accusation you are making that they buy illegal goods as though they do it and no legal citizens do.

In their country they are thrid class citizens. That system didn't work so don't import it. In the South we are in a cultural war. We are told we are closed minded because I refuse to muddle through pigeon Spanish with a Mexican FUGITIVE standing in my business complaining because I haven't hired someone to cater to one who refuses to be a part of the community. I do not want the culture of the barrio in my neighborhood.
Whatever. Feel culturally superior much? There is no law in your country that says you have to offer services in Spanish, so get over it. Fugative? Are you even going to try to make an actual arguement here? You are now saying that these illegal immigrants are actually criminals running from the Mexican law?

Allow me to roll my eyes, and ignore your posts. :rolleyes:

I do like the idea of busing illegals to the Canadian border.
Go right ahead.

I do like the idea of busing illegals to the Canadian border.


We could send 50% of them to Canada as they are a friend and ally. I know there most be tons of jobs in relatively unskilled labor sector that need to be filled.

There you are. Legalize them, make them citizens and they will generate more of a bonus. Problem solved.
And then we get to deal with a huge workforce, limited job opportunities, and the resulting low wages. No thanks.

Living in the American South, I am surrounded by illegal Mexicans. You can drive about fifteen minutes across town and find 10 or more living in a two bedroom apartment. Anything they buy is from yard sales or fenced merchandise. They are excellent scroungers.

Actually that's not a cultural problem. Mexicans are very good consumers in their natural environment. That's more a problem of not having enough money to buy stuff.


In their country they are thrid class citizens. That system didn't work so don't import it.

They're not importing it. They're being forced to live that way.


In the South we are in a cultural war. We are told we are closed minded because I refuse to muddle through pigeon Spanish with a Mexican FUGITIVE standing in my business complaining because I haven't hired someone to cater to one who refuses to be a part of the community. I do not want the culture of the barrio in my neighborhood.
I agree, you shouldn't be forced to hire someone you don't want. And immigrants, legal and otherwise, should at least make an effort to learn the language and the customs of the land they're arriving to. This doesn't mean that they should abandon theirs, but that they should try to adapt.

I speak English, I try to speak French, I've taken an interest in hockey, because I live in a new country now. That doesn't mean I don't drink my tequila from time to time or buy refried beans in Kensington Market (at something like 6 times the cost in Mexico!).

Do you know the definition of "illegal"? They are on the run from the authorities because they have committed a crime with an undocumented entry.

Run into a cafe and yell "immigracion!" and watch everyone get really nervous.

Culturally superior? yes. Would you like to live in Central Mexico or Guatamala? probably not? Why? Are to good to wallow in poverty? too good to be plagued with drug cartels determining elections? I am.

The fortress approach is working vey well between North and South Korea. There is no immigration there whatsoever and hasnt been for a long time.
Ha bloody ha.

And then we get to deal with a huge workforce, limited job opportunities, and the resulting low wages. No thanks.
You already have to deal with all those, since the illegals are already there. By being legalized they would at least be able to get better paying jobs or demand a pay raise, which would drive wages up and increase the economy.

I'm not talking about opening the border, but legalizing the people already there.

You already have to deal with all those, since the illegals are already there. By being legalized they would at least be able to get better paying jobs or demand a pay raise, which would drive wages up and increase the economy.

I'm not talking about opening the border, but legalizing the people already there.
We've had amnesty programs which allowed illegal aliens living in the USA to get citizenship in the past. The problem is that more keep comming.

We've had amnesty programs which allowed illegal aliens living in the USA to get citizenship in the past. The problem is that more keep comming.
Yes. The root problems have to be attacked in their point of origin too.

Do you know the definition of "illegal"? They are on the run from the authorities because they have committed a crime with an undocumented entry.
Ah, so you simply wanted to be even more pejorative and replace illegal with fugative. I see.

Culturally superior? yes. Would you like to live in Central Mexico or Guatamala? probably not? Why? Are to good to wallow in poverty? too good to be plagued with drug cartels determining elections? I am.
These are social and political problems that have little to do with culture. And the people born in your country that are wallowing in poverty, living in neighbourhoods controlled by gang violence...I guess they should just move to Central America because they clearly aren't too good for that sort of thing?

My ancestors from both sides came here jus over 100 years ago legally. They
lived in the tenements of New York City. They worked the hard labor cutting and setting marble. Long days, back breaking labor. Families put an emphasis on education, with the desire of each son doing better than his father did.
They came here legally, became citizens. No one made them throw away their customs or beliefs. And it wasnt easy as being an Italian in NYC in those days wasnt so easy.
I have nothing against immigrants coming here in search of a better chance at success. I know the majority work hard and work hard at the jobs that many Americans wont do anymore.
Its the illegal immigrants that are here, that are burdening our system that I disagree with. I dont wish them harm and I've no hatred toward them. I just wish they were both enjoing the opporotunity here, while contributing to the system. Also-being accountable is a good thing. Right now, many carry fake ID.

Again. Relax your laws and make it easier to gain citizenship. No more illegals.

Ha bloody ha.


I dindt say I agreed with it, but it can work.

I dindt say I agreed with it, but it can work.
The US/Mexican border is significantly longer. Can you even imagine how much a huge wall would cost?

I think borders are ridiculous anyway. Erase them.

Culturally superior? yes. Would you like to live in Central Mexico or Guatamala? probably not? Why? Are to good to wallow in poverty? too good to be plagued with drug cartels determining elections? I am.
i'm with Sinuhue on this. you were born in the US by chance, the people in those countries were born there by chance - neither you, nor they, had any choice in the matter. what right do you have therefore to not allow them to live in "your country"?

Again. Relax your laws and make it easier to gain citizenship. No more illegals.


Why do the laws need to be relaxed now? Why do we have to lower our standards?

I know what you mean i am german and my country is flooded with turks, spaniards, italians and fucking chinks and japs, yet i do not disagree with mexico i've been there and there is no nicest people anywhere else most of them is willing to give you everything they have without expecting something in return, almost all foreigners i know in my country aren't bad people either i just don't like the idea of people living outside their country.

Moreover i have read how you treat mexicans like servants, only because they are hoping to support their families you hate them and discriminate them i won't deny we do the same thing here yet why don't you comply about chinks or niggers, once i saw in the news part of the marines, i was really astounded they were all latins shit...

The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars, and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows: Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody
- Jean-Jacques Rousseau

I know what you mean i am german and my country is flooded with turks, spaniards, italians and fucking chinks and japs, yet i do not disagree with mexico i've been there and there is no nicest people anywhere else most of them is willing to give you everything they have without expecting something in return, almost all foreigners i know in my country aren't bad people either i just don't like the idea of people living outside their country.

Moreover i have read how you treat mexicans like servants, only because they are hoping to support their families you hate them and discriminate them i won't deny we do the same thing here yet why don't you comply about chinks or niggers, once i saw in the news part of the marines, i was really astounded they were all latins shit...
Um. Security! We've got a live one.

I dindt say I agreed with it, but it can work.
Sorry, I was laughing because I thought the situation wasn't really comparable. Then again...

Why do the laws need to be relaxed now? Why do we have to lower our standards?
Because there has been a steady increase of tightening immigration laws. New, prohibitive expenses that did not before apply. Countries on blacklists, from where it is even MORE difficult to come legally. Not lower your standards...make the standards fair and reasonable.

I know what you mean i am german and my country is flooded with turks, spaniards, italians and fucking chinks and japs, *snip* why don't you comply about chinks or niggers,
Racist language gets you no love.

The US/Mexican border is significantly longer. Can you even imagine how much a huge wall would cost?

I think borders are ridiculous anyway. Erase them.


I cannot imagine the expense, no. I was supplying an example for someone who claimed it wouldnt work. The cost is too high for the cheap wire fence thats already there.

With all due respect, Sinuhue, I dont think you know the impact this problem has on the areas that face this. Your opinion might be different if you lived in one of these areas. Please understand-I'm not being sarcastic or disrespectful of your opinions.

We havent even begun to discuss the problem with terrorists sneaking accross with intentions of hurting the US. I know the Mexican people that just want to cross so they can improve their lives. But what about those other people that are looking to hurt us? Thats possibly a much bigger threat than illegal immigrants.

Again. Relax your laws and make it easier to gain citizenship. No more illegals.
Hey, we could also relax our laws and make it easier to get money. No more robberies!

I know what you mean i am german and my country is flooded with turks, spaniards, italians and fucking chinks and japs, yet i do not disagree with mexico i've been there and there is no nicest people anywhere else most of them is willing to give you everything they have without expecting something in return, almost all foreigners i know in my country aren't bad people either i just don't like the idea of people living outside their country.

Moreover i have read how you treat mexicans like servants, only because they are hoping to support their families you hate them and discriminate them i won't deny we do the same thing here yet why don't you comply about chinks or niggers, once i saw in the news part of the marines, i was really astounded they were all latins shit...


grow up and dont annoy us.

Sorry, I was laughing because I thought the situation wasn't really comparable. Then again...

Again-I wasnt comparing the situations-just showing that a border CAN be made impenetrable. I am not comapring US/Mexico with North & South Korea.

With all due respect, Sinuhue, I dont think you know the impact this problem has on the areas that face this. Your opinion might be different if you lived in one of these areas. Please understand-I'm not being sarcastic or disrespectful of your opinions.

Don't worry, I'm not seeing any disrespect from you. And you're right. If I was living in an area with a lot of illegal immigrant and US citizen tension, my opinions would be coloured differently. They would not be DIFFERENT however. I firmly believe that it is the idea that people can not freely cross borders, making them legal or illegal, is heinous. Once you classify one group as illegal, you marginalise them. You force them to live in poverty, in hiding, grouping together for support, at the mercy of the crime and hatred that both terrorises AND ends up defining them.

We havent even begun to discuss the problem with terrorists sneaking accross with intentions of hurting the US. I know the Mexican people that just want to cross so they can improve their lives. But what about those other people that are looking to hurt us? Thats possibly a much bigger threat than illegal immigrants.
And as has no doubt been pointed out countless times before, the 911 terrorists were in your country legally. So why don't you stop ALL immigration if you really think that is going to keep your country safe?

Hey, we could also relax our laws and make it easier to get money. No more robberies!
Well, legalise drugs in any case.

I simply do not consider moving across borders to be a crime.

i just don't like the idea of people living outside their country.
care to explain why?

Legal or illegal immigrants?

Don't US citizens working in the USA generate more of a bonus?
Immigrants as a whole, and no, as they don't generate any bonus. Immigration is icing on the cake. We make more money off of them then they do off of us.

The 'welfare' argument is nothing but a poorly constructed strawman.

Interesting topic, too bad some keep messing up their arguments by using incompetent arguments, such as terrorism, welfare or culture.

Borders are there to determine when specific laws stop being applied, no more and no less. It is a crime against humanity to stop people from migrating. Migration allowed the world to be populated after all... either through Africa (if you're an evolutionarist) or Eden (if you're christian), etc.

Basically, limits on migration are only useful when you have an inapt system in place and do not believe in free markets. Part of the market after all is labor, something that is required for production, and labor is the foundation for any market economy.

Stating that immigrants have a negative effect on yourincome is true, most likely, if you are unskilled. Why is there Legal Migration? Because the US (and other countries in for instance the European Union) allow migration from other well developed countries, mainly because they know this will only result in limited migration and allows for a better trade position.

And to top it of, the US is what it is today due to immigration. Immigration that effectively was illegal, underlined by the fact that the original inhabitants fought to get them out - sadly they faced superior technology.

I really do not understand how a country that was build by migrants, is so opposed to open borders.

I say: Open up the borders, change your laws to enforce (at least) one common language and to change the rules on welfare and let the free market do its work. Isn't that the "American Way"?

Circumstances change. Once there were immigrants flooding into Europe. Circumstances changed.

Vicente Fox is crazy like a... well, fox, on the issue of immigration. He knows that his country is a cesspool, and his government and police are corrupt. The US provides a safety valve for keeping him in power. Radical elements who would normally rise up in revolt against his government will go violate US laws instead.

Also, immigrants send home money to their families at such a rate that it props up the feeble Mexican economy. Remittances from the US are difficult to track, but those we do know of show that it makes up the second largest income source in the nation, right behind oil exports.

So immigration is great for Mexico. And the US gets the shaft. Here's why:

It's a common myth that illegal immigrants work only in jobs Americans would not take. That is a bald-faced lie. They can obtain false documentation at a reasonable rate ($300), and with that in hand, they can work anywhere. They also create cottage industries, hire on with sub-contractors, and go to work in legitimate businesses that their fellows have opened ahead of them. They provide the overwhelming majority of the skilled labor force in the American southwest... so much so that managers are being turned away from job opportunities if they can't speak Spanish.

Meanwhile, we have American urban minorities who feels there are no opportunities out there for them, so they turn to guns, drugs, and gangs. Net gain for the US? Uhhh... no.

Those illegals who work in legitimate businesses with false papers pay into the federal government coffers, and they can never claim their social security benefits, so this represents a net gain for the US. However, the majority of illegals who work outside the economy, being paid under the table, pay nothing into government coffers (except for the little bit of sales tax collected by the state, etc.). They do make claims, however, in the form of medical expenses and education. For every dollar illegals contribute to the government, they extract three. Net gain for the US? Uhhh... no.

Additionally, any Southwestern school is going to be heavily populated by children who are not native English speakers. In a class where 60% of the kids speak Spanish at home, how quickly will language lessons progress? And what is the cost to the further preparation of the native speakers?

Incidentally, that last problem is not limited to illegal immigrants. It's a common attitude among legal immigrants that it is their duty to teach the child Spanish, and leave English to the schools.

And I haven't even begun to address the illegal immigrant contribution to crime, and its associated costs. People who disrespect American immigration law often show a disrespect to other laws as well.

Vicente Fox is crazy like a... well, fox, on the issue of immigration. He knows that his country is a cesspool, and his government and police are corrupt. The US provides a safety valve for keeping him in power. Radical elements who would normally rise up in revolt against his government will go violate US laws instead.

Also, immigrants send home money to their families at such a rate that it props up the feeble Mexican economy. Remittances from the US are difficult to track, but those we do know of show that it makes up the second largest income source in the nation, right behind oil exports.

So immigration is great for Mexico. And the US gets the shaft. Here's why:

It's a common myth that illegal immigrants work only in jobs Americans would not take. That is a bald-faced lie. They can obtain false documentation at a reasonable rate ($300), and with that in hand, they can work anywhere. They also create cottage industries, hire on with sub-contractors, and go to work in legitimate businesses that their fellows have opened ahead of them. They provide the overwhelming majority of the skilled labor force in the American southwest... so much so that managers are being turned away from job opportunities if they can't speak Spanish.

Meanwhile, we have American urban minorities who feels there are no opportunities out there for them, so they turn to guns, drugs, and gangs. Net gain for the US? Uhhh... no.

Those illegals who work in legitimate businesses with false papers pay into the federal government coffers, and they can never claim their social security benefits, so this represents a net gain for the US. However, the majority of illegals who work outside the economy, being paid under the table, pay nothing into government coffers (except for the little bit of sales tax collected by the state, etc.). They do make claims, however, in the form of medical expenses and education. For every dollar illegals contribute to the government, they extract three. Net gain for the US? Uhhh... no.

Additionally, any Southwestern school is going to be heavily populated by children who are not native English speakers. In a class where 60% of the kids speak Spanish at home, how quickly will language lessons progress? And what is the cost to the further preparation of the native speakers?

Incidentally, that last problem is not limited to illegal immigrants. It's a common attitude among legal immigrants that it is their duty to teach the child Spanish, and leave English to the schools.

And I haven't even begun to address the illegal immigrant contribution to crime, and its associated costs. People who disrespect American immigration law often show a disrespect to other laws as well.
Sources and studies please? I've shown mine (including studies done and endorsed by the President of the United States) that directly contradict what you are saying.

Circumstances change. Once there were immigrants flooding into Europe. Circumstances changed.

Sorry, but what are you trying to say? Which circumstances have changed? And why would those changes be relevant to migration?

It's a common myth that illegal immigrants work only in jobs Americans would not take. That is a bald-faced lie. They can obtain false documentation at a reasonable rate ($300),

And Americans can't do the exact same thing?

and with that in hand, they can work anywhere. They also create cottage industries,

And Americans can't do the exact same thing?


hire on with sub-contractors,

And Americans can't do the exact same thing?


and go to work in legitimate businesses that their fellows have opened ahead of them.

And Americans can't do the exact same thing?


They provide the overwhelming majority of the skilled labor force in the American southwest... so much so that managers are being turned away from job opportunities if they can't speak Spanish.


So, rather than improving education it is better to eliminate the majority of the American southwest's skilled labor force?


Meanwhile, we have American urban minorities who feels there are no opportunities out there for them, so they turn to guns, drugs, and gangs. Net gain for the US? Uhhh... no.

What does that have to do with anything? You're going to blame illegal immigrants for American criminals? Yeah, fuck that whole personal responsibility thing I guess...

However, the majority of illegals who work outside the economy, being paid under the table, pay nothing into government coffers (except for the little bit of sales tax collected by the state, etc.).

How is that 'outside the economy?' It isn't. You're drawing an imaginary line there. And where are you getting the "'majority' of illegals" bit? Just made it up, or are there polls that illegal immigrants feel like filling out and they admitted to being illegal and 'paid under the table?'


They do make claims, however, in the form of medical expenses and education. For every dollar illegals contribute to the government, they extract three. Net gain for the US? Uhhh... no.

Public education and medicine are not supposed to make a profit for the US government.

Also note, the US government is not the USA.

A
dditionally, any Southwestern school is going to be heavily populated by children who are not native English speakers. In a class where 60% of the kids speak Spanish at home, how quickly will language lessons progress? And what is the cost to the further preparation of the native speakers?

Irrelevant since immigrants will not ordinarily be native English speakers anyway, legal or no, and this will be a problem unless you cut back on legal migration as well. Which you probably would want to do.


Incidentally, that last problem is not limited to illegal immigrants. It's a common attitude among legal immigrants that it is their duty to teach the child Spanish, and leave English to the schools.

Heh! Typed too soon. So, whats your problem with immigration being illegal if this problem would be whether it was legal or illegal?


And I haven't even begun to address the illegal immigrant contribution to crime, and its associated costs. People who disrespect American immigration law often show a disrespect to other laws as well.

American immigration laws, and especially border laws in this instance, need to be changed. Lots of other laws need to be changed. For that matter, there are tons of laws I, an American citizen, do not "respect." What does that mean? Should I be extradited for disrespect? Have you ever jaywalked?

Immigrants as a whole, and no, as they don't generate any bonus. Immigration is icing on the cake. We make more money off of them then they do off of us.

The 'welfare' argument is nothing but a poorly constructed strawman.
It's not icing on the cake. It's someone from another country snatching cake off of a citizen's plate. The jobs done by illegal aliens could be done by citizens.

And as has no doubt been pointed out countless times before, the 911 terrorists were in your country legally. So why don't you stop ALL immigration if you really think that is going to keep your country safe?


I'm pretty sure that the 9/11 terrorists were here on expired student visas. I might be wrong.

I'm pretty sure that the 9/11 terrorists were here on expired student visas. I might be wrong.

Irrelevant, as the argument basically states they entered the country legally... as this was a counter argument to strick border control.

Nice try though!!

It's not icing on the cake. It's someone from another country snatching cake off of a citizen's plate. The jobs done by illegal aliens could be done by citizens.
With the unemployment rate we have? Not likely.

With the unemployment rate we have? Not likely.
An overabundance of workers drives down wages. Illegal aliens make life harder on those Americans who can least afford it.

An overabundance of workers drives down wages. Illegal aliens make life harder on those Americans who can least afford it.
Who says we have an overabundance of workers? Source please.

The problem with open borders that literally anyone can get in...not only people looking for work, but drug-runners, criminals fleeing justice in other countries, terrorists...

Face it, all nation-states have borders. This is why there are all those colors on your maps with lines between them. This is why we don't just have a big map that's unicolor and says "Earth" on it. This has been a main reason over the course of history to go to war; we need to move the lines of our portion of the map out a bit over here, and here, and here...

There are plenty of people from all over the world allowed into our country for a variety of reasons, and they get here legally. That's how it should be. To "open our borders" is a ridiculous concept that would do more harm than good, not simply to the economy or ourselves, but to the people that come in.

It is a good idea to grant asylum to people that come from war torn nations.
However these people inevitably end up in the underworld of crime and prostitution due to a lack of education and language skills and an upbringing characterized by violence and attrocities.
Therefore countries should only grant asylum to individuals if they also take on the responsibility of educating them for at least 3-4 years before allowing them in. For the sake of everyone in the country.

Who says we have an overabundance of workers? Source please.
www.cis.org/articles/2004/back504.html

Dr. Borjas, the author of the article is an economist from Harvard in case you're wondering about his credentials.

Irrelevant, as the argument basically states they entered the country legally... as this was a counter argument to strick border control.

Nice try though!!


Save your high-handed mannerism-I wasnt being sarcastic. Entering legally and having your visa expire means you were here illegally. I'm discussing this with an open mind and some experience.
I dont need your smug retorts.

I'm pretty sure that the 9/11 terrorists were here on expired student visas. I might be wrong.
I'm not actually sure. It doesn't really matter. They were given legal access to your country. They didn't slink in through the US/Mexican border. If their visas expired, they committed a crime while already in the US.

An overabundance of workers drives down wages. Illegal aliens make life harder on those Americans who can least afford it.
A higher population also means more goods and services are needed, and therefore more jobs.

It's a circular argument. There will be ebb and flow.

The problem with open borders that literally anyone can get in...not only people looking for work, but drug-runners, criminals fleeing justice in other countries, terrorists...

I'd hate to destroy your confidence in the system, but right now, those kinds of people are getting in anyway. Usually the ones who have the money, regardless of how they earned it, are asked the fewest questions, and forced to hurdle the least obstacles.

Deliberate misrepresentation?

And Americans can't do the exact same thing?
And Americans can't do the exact same thing?
And Americans can't do the exact same thing?

... ad nauseum. You're totally missing the point. The point is that the media and immigration apologists like to say that illegals ONLY work in jobs that Americans would not take. They work in a great deal of professions that Americans would be glad to take. Do you really think an urban youth would feel trapped in gangs if he could easily get a job as a drywaller? A mechanic?

So, rather than improving education it is better to eliminate the majority of the American southwest's skilled labor force?
Apparently you missed the connection between skilled labor and urban despair. Uneducated people all compete for the same jobs. A large pool of illegal workers in skilled labor means fewer jobs of this type for urban youths, higher competition, lower wages, etc. We have plenty of workers for the skilled labor force right here.

What does that have to do with anything? You're going to blame illegal immigrants for American criminals? Yeah, fuck that whole personal responsibility thing I guess...
Pop quiz, ace. You live in a neighborhood where the school is a joke, where the teachers hardly make an effort because they don't have proper materials and are scared for their lives. You're scared for your own. So you leave school totally unprepared for college, or even a trade school... even if you could afford it. The only people hiring are WalMart, at minimum wage. What kind of a future do you see for yourself?

Same situation, but there is a building explosion in the next valley. They need anybody who can swing a hammer, and are paying top dollar. Now what kind of a future do you see for yourself?

How is that 'outside the economy?' It isn't. You're drawing an imaginary line there. And where are you getting the "'majority' of illegals" bit? Just made it up, or are there polls that illegal immigrants feel like filling out and they admitted to being illegal and 'paid under the table?'
It's outside the economy because it is production that is unaccounted for and unregulated... the very definition of "black market."

There are no reliable stats concerning illegals and the jobs they take, but let's just say I have my sources for inside information. My own wife originally came to this country illegally, and a lot of her family are still here illegally. I've met extended family and friends, and heard a lot of anecdotes. They paint a very different picture than what the media presents.


Public education and medicine are not supposed to make a profit for the US government.

They are, however, supposed to be paid for, and everyone needs to pay their share. Illegals burden the system by not paying their share, which means your taxes are higher.

Irrelevant since immigrants will not ordinarily be native English speakers anyway, legal or no, and this will be a problem unless you cut back on legal migration as well. Which you probably would want to do.

Heh! Typed too soon. So, whats your problem with immigration being illegal if this problem would be whether it was legal or illegal?

If immigration was taking place on scale with legal quotas, the overwhelming majority of class populations would be fluent English speakers. The problem of language is usually solved in the second generation, and definitely beyond.

American immigration laws, and especially border laws in this instance, need to be changed. Lots of other laws need to be changed. For that matter, there are tons of laws I, an American citizen, do not "respect." What does that mean? Should I be extradited for disrespect? Have you ever jaywalked?

Very nice of you to compare jaywalking with violent crime, drug trade, kidnapping, extortion, fraud, and identity theft.

I'm not actually sure. It doesn't really matter. They were given legal access to your country. They didn't slink in through the US/Mexican border.


They didnt,you're right. I have to imagine that someone could take full advantage of this though and its sickening to think of what could happen.
I know there is no easy answer.

I'd hate to destroy your confidence in the system, but right now, those kinds of people are getting in anyway. Usually the ones who have the money, regardless of how they earned it, are asked the fewest questions, and forced to hurdle the least obstacles.

So the fact that some of them are getting in means that we should just drop our vigiliance and let them all in? Not exactly sound logic...

Very nice of you to compare jaywalking with violent crime, drug trade, kidnapping, extortion, fraud, and identity theft.
And not nice of you to compare those crimes with illegal immigration, as though they always come hand in hand.

www.cis.org/articles/2004/back504.html

Dr. Borjas, the author of the article is an economist from Harvard in case you're wondering about his credentials.
Most of the loss being in drop out fields, tapering to nothing in college educational fields. Your point is what? Educate yourself if you wish to get away from the 'brown menace', and quite frankly, he's assuming that growth in all of the fields is the same, making it rather difficult to compare and pretty much nonsensical.

I know there is no easy answer.
That's all I want to hear.

You're right. It's going to take more than a wall. Or just opening up the borders. What we have to decide before we can start on the long journey to a solution is what our goal is. If we really want to isolate ourselves and control our population, look only inward, and dictate who is welcome and who is not....or if we are willing to open ourselves up to real globalism, look outward, and make borders fluid and less important than human development.

Until then, it's just going to be a tug of war, where no one is completely wrong, and no one is completely right.

Well you know, if our government....and I use the term loosely......wouldnt make the Immigration process so rediculous and expensive, that might disuade illegal entry. One of our employess has been trying to get his parents into the US for about 3 years now and they just keep asking for more money and paperwork and this and that.

I think that the companies who pay lower wages to Immigrants should be dealt with. I love it when I hear these rednecks down here bitching about the "Mexicans taking all the jobs". And then they are drawing an unemployment check and going out to buy weed and beer with it. :rolleyes:

I will say this: if I lived in a country where the conditions were poor and my children could have a better life if we moved somewhere else, I would take my ass across the border in a heart beat.

So the fact that some of them are getting in means that we should just drop our vigiliance and let them all in? Not exactly sound logic...
No, but the laws need to be reexamined so that we are not simply encouraging those with money (and questionable backgrounds) or skills that will never be used (doctors and university professors coming to drive cabs for example). Reform the rules so that we aren't making criminals out of good people who could really contribute to our nations.

Open the borders, you racist, xenophobic freaks!

That's how I voted, but I need to be more specific.

This only works really well within a truly Libertarian framework. I'm very suprised to see that it's mainly the lefties here supporting my own ideas on immigration... becuase it's true:
In a quasi-Socialist framework, this means the death of that system. You cannot have a welfare state with socialized medicine, food, housing, etc. and expect to provide these services to anyone under the tax radar. It just doesn't work.
Even if you made them legal, those coming without any funds will immediately be suckling off the state's teat, and with open borders, you'll soon be flooded.
This only works in a deregulated, capitalist system, without welfare and socialized medicine.
It's really simple economics, no need to bloviate.

Most of the loss being in drop out fields, tapering to nothing in college educational fields. Your point is what? Educate yourself if you wish to get away from the 'brown menace', and quite frankly, he's assuming that growth in all of the fields is the same, making it rather difficult to compare and pretty much nonsensical.
My point is that the poorest citizens are forced to compete for a limited supply of jobs against millions of people who aren't supposed to be here in the first place.

I agree with Peech.

As with so many processes we haven't ourselves experienced, all those people out there saying immigration is easy are frankly, very uniformed. It's a horrible, bureaucratic process with no guarantees, and subject to the whims of immigration officials. And most people will never, ever be eligible, no matter how hard they try.

I am probably one of the most out spoken Bush supporters, but in this case, I am really pissed off with him. He knew he needed the hispanic populations vote, so screwin the border was the best way to get it. I was happy to hear about the MinuteMen. Thomas Jefferson said a little rebellion is good now and then. Well for once the rebellion was worth while. Instead of being about freelove and drugs, Americans are standing up and protecting their country, even if the official government wont

No, but the laws need to be reexamined so that we are not simply encouraging those with money (and questionable backgrounds) or skills that will never be used (doctors and university professors coming to drive cabs for example). Reform the rules so that we aren't making criminals out of good people who could really contribute to our nations.

I don't think there are many doctors or university professors coming to the U.S. to drive cabs. Most of them probably feel enough civic duty to their citizens to stay and make sure they're healthy and educated. People swimming the Rio Grande with nothing but the shirt on their backs aren't usually going to contribute to much other than keeping the prices of produce in supermarkets down to levels which American consumers can appreciate.

This only works in a deregulated, capitalist system, without welfare and socialized medicine.
It's really simple economics, no need to bloviate.
Again, I agree. It wouldn't work within a social services framework. Not without some serious planning, or without focusing on certain essentail sectors such as health and education, and getting rid of others (such as unemployment insurance and so on).

It's not an issue that can be tackled all on its own. It's linked to much wider social issues. Any real change will happen very slowly, and rightfuly so. Quick change could mean disaster.

My point is that the poorest citizens are forced to compete for a limited supply of jobs against millions of people who aren't supposed to be here in the first place.
Who defines who is supposed to be here?

Are people who came over in the 1900's ok? 1950's? Every 'white' person, but no chinese, blacks or mexicans?

Honest working people are illegal immigrants. Our discriminatory immigration system makes them illegal. Destroy the system, destroy the problem. Unlimited immigration with only exclusions for national security, none of this quota crap.
Now this is just stupid.

It's the same thing saying "stealing is only illegal because laws make it such. Get rid of the laws, no more criminials".

Who defines who is supposed to be here?

Are people who came over in the 1900's ok? 1950's? Every 'white' person, but no chinese, blacks or mexicans?
This is not about race. The US government decides who's supposed to be here. The US government has decided that the only people who can move here are those who have gone through the process to become citizens or secured a work or student visa. It doesn't matter what color they are.

I don't think there are many doctors or university professors coming to the U.S. to drive cabs.

Then you think WRONG. You'd be amazed at the qualifications some of your taxi drivers, janitors, garbage men have back home. Unfortunately, there hasn't been the political will to make those qualifications translate when these people come here. What, do you seriously think that legal immigrants are uneducated and poor? We don't let that kind in all that often, unless they have people already in the country to support them. Most of the legal immigrants are middle class, well-educated and trained.

Their reasons for coming vary. War. Persecution. Lack of opportunity because of economic factors in their own country. Love...whatever. My brother in law is a Chilean petroleum engineer. He makes $4000 US a month in Chile, which is an incredible amount of money there. Still, he choose to join his wife and child here in Canada, even though it means he will start at the bottom rung. He will spend years learning English, and retraining because the Universities here will not accept enough of his credits to grant equivelence. Ridiculous.

Who defines who is supposed to be here?

Are people who came over in the 1900's ok? 1950's? Every 'white' person, but no chinese, blacks or mexicans?
The ones who are here legally are the ones who are supposed to be here.

It's a fairly simple concept.

The ones who are here legally.

It's a fairly simple concept.
But the immigrants are taking away from 'natives'! We must stop them (disregarding the fact that the economy gains as a whole from immigration, offsetting wage losses through various other mechainisms, mostly through driving prices down and wage increases)

It doesn't matter what color they are.
Or what country they come from? Of course it matters. It matters a great deal. There are only a certain amount of visas granted to people every year, and those visas are divided up by region and country. Personal biases also play a large factor, since immigration officials have a lot of power of discretion to deny or accept applications.

(emphasis mine) Then you think WRONG. You'd be amazed at the qualifications some of your taxi drivers, janitors, garbage men have back home. Unfortunately, there hasn't been the political will to make those qualifications translate when these people come here. What, do you seriously think that legal immigrants are uneducated and poor? We don't let that kind in all that often, unless they have people already in the country to support them. Most of the legal immigrants are middle class, well-educated and trained.

If you'll reread my post, I was talking about illegal immigrants. That is what this thread is about, is it not?

Then you think WRONG. You'd be amazed at the qualifications some of your taxi drivers, janitors, garbage men have back home. Unfortunately, there hasn't been the political will to make those qualifications translate when these people come here. What, do you seriously think that legal immigrants are uneducated and poor? We don't let that kind in all that often, unless they have people already in the country to support them. Most of the legal immigrants are middle class, well-educated and trained.

Actually that happens more in Canada and not so much in the US. People who emigrate legally to the US usually have a much easier time getting jobs in their area than if they had gone to Canada. Of course, Canada is much easier to get into.

It's a very odd dycotomy, because CIC accepts you based on your credentials, but once here, employers reject you based on your credentials and lack of "Canadian experience", whatever that means.

But the immigrants are taking away from 'natives'! We must stop them (disregarding the fact that the economy gains as a whole from immigration, offsetting wage losses through various other mechainisms, mostly through driving prices down and wage increases)
Why do you equate the attempt to stop illegal immigration with all immigration.

Illegal immigration puts a drain on the economy much more than the economy gains by it.

And not nice of you to compare those crimes with illegal immigration, as though they always come hand in hand.

I did not say *always*, but there is documentation to support high incidents of these crimes involving illegal immigrants.

If you'll reread my post, I was talking about illegal immigrants. That is what this thread is about, is it not?
I don't think there are many doctors or university professors coming to the U.S. to drive cabs. Most of them probably feel enough civic duty to their citizens to stay and make sure they're healthy and educated. People swimming the Rio Grande with nothing but the shirt on their backs aren't usually going to contribute to much other than keeping the prices of produce in supermarkets down to levels which American consumers can appreciate.
You seem to be speaking of legal, and illegal immigrants here. So stay on topic if you don't want people's replies to stray.

It's a very odd dycotomy, because CIC accepts you based on your credentials, but once here, employers reject you based on your credentials and lack of "Canadian experience", whatever that means.
That drives me nuts...make it a reason for accepting the application, but don't allow it to actually benefit the person.

I did not say *always*, but there is documentation to support high incidents of these crimes involving illegal immigrants.And plenty to link people born in the US with it too.

Your point is?

You seem to be speaking of legal, and illegal immigrants here. So stay on topic if you don't want people's replies to stray.

How am I speaking of legal immigrants? I specifically mentioned swimming a river to get into the country...usually legal immigrants come by roads or on planes. I was on topic, where were you?

Why does the Mexican swim team never win an olympic medal?
Because all the Mexicans who can swim are in the USA.

Again, I agree. It wouldn't work within a social services framework. Not without some serious planning, or without focusing on certain essentail sectors such as health and education, and getting rid of others (such as unemployment insurance and so on).

It's not an issue that can be tackled all on its own. It's linked to much wider social issues. Any real change will happen very slowly, and rightfuly so. Quick change could mean disaster.

Wow, I'm glad we agree. I just found it amusing that the lefties are all for opening the borders here in the US, but when it comes to the Netherlands and Europe, boy do the tables turn fast toward more down-to-earth economic anti-immigrationism.

In the Netherlands and Socialist Democratic nations in Europe, things have taken a turn toward in-your-face xenophobia. Foreigners are seen as merely leeches sucking off their pieces of the welfare pie.
What about these countries, lefties?
What makes you guys above open borders?

I'm not being hostile to these countries (I'd love to be in Amsterdam right now sparking up with Legless Pirates), but what's good for the goose...

Wow, I'm glad we agree. I just found it amusing that the lefties are all for opening the borders here in the US, but when it comes to the Netherlands and Europe, boy do the tables turn fast toward more down-to-earth economic anti-immigrationism.

In the Netherlands and Socialist Democratic nations in Europe, things have taken a turn toward in-your-face xenophobia. Foreigners are seen as merely leeches sucking off their pieces of the welfare pie.
What about these countries, lefties?
What makes you guys above open borders?

I'm not being hostile to these countries (I'd love to be in Amsterdam right now sparking up with Legless Pirates), but what's good for the goose...
Dude, I'm a leftie and I'm against illegal immigration.

Screw our goverment and the minute-men, we should be proud that we are such a devot nation that people struggle just to get here. I say we let our boarders open for everyone, so that other's may prosper. Foreighners are some of the most hard-working people, and they're grateful of our freedoms and strong economy unlike the douches born here. I say we kick alot of our "born American"s out and let a whole lot of aliens in. Especialy kick the born Americans out from up north sense they love to bitch about this country. Go move to France nut gobbler..

Dude, I'm a leftie and I'm against illegal immigration.
Then that makes you a smarter leftie (and more honest) than most of your peers. ;)

I'm all for open borders, but I'm not for bullshit. And that's exactly what it is to proudly display a far-left political compass sig and claim to be "so very for" open border policies.
That just makes you a danger to your own political ideals. Seems like a lot of your peers are thinking with their oversized hearts, and not with their heads.

And plenty to link people born in the US with it too.

Your point is?
I've already made my point, but you are either dim, or deliberately ignoring it. Maybe this will help. If it doesn't, I'll try to distill it into monosyllabic grunts you are better prepared to understand.

http://www.dallasfed.org/research/papers/2003/wp0303.pdf

How am I speaking of legal immigrants? I specifically mentioned swimming a river to get into the country...usually legal immigrants come by roads or on planes. I was on topic, where were you?
Ok, whatever. I was replying to your statement that not many university professors or doctors come to drive cabs here. Illegally or legally, yes, yes they do.

And by the way...you were the one saying I was off topic. If you recall, you were replying to a comment I had made about LEGAL IMMIGRATION.

Screw our goverment and the minute-men, we should be proud that we are such a devot nation that people struggle just to get here. I say we let our boarders open for everyone, so that other's may prosper. Foreighners are some of the most hard-working people, and they're grateful of our freedoms and strong economy unlike the douches born here. I say we kick alot of our "born American"s out and let a whole lot of aliens in. Especialy kick the born Americans out from up north sense they love to bitch about this country. Go move to France nut gobbler..
Gee, you've convinced me with your ironclad logic and mastery of the English language.

Ok, whatever. I was replying to your statement that not many university professors or doctors come to drive cabs here. Illegally or legally, yes, yes they do.

Fair enough, however the topic of undervalued immigrants working jobs they are completely overqualified for is another matter. What President Fox is advocating is for the poor of his country to run pell-mell into the U.S. to work in order to bring American dollars back to his impoverished nation to bolster the economy...not exactly the most ethical political move, in my opinion.

Then that makes you a smarter leftie (and more honest) than most of your peers. ;)

I'm all for open borders, but I'm not for bullshit. And that's exactly what it is to proudly display a far-left political compass sig and claim to be "so very for" open border policies.
That just makes you a danger to your own political ideals. Seems like a lot of your peers are thinking with their oversized hearts, and not with their heads.
Um...I'm not sure what the problem with left=open borders is...I support open borders in the US, Canada, and in ALL countries. However, I wouldn't want them suddenly opened with no warning. I would like to see a gradual relaxation of immigration policies, and a MOVE to more open borders. And I'm a small-hearted left nutwing.

Screw our goverment and the minute-men, we should be proud that we are such a devot nation that people struggle just to get here. I say we let our boarders open for everyone, so that other's may prosper. Foreighners are some of the most hard-working people, and they're grateful of our freedoms and strong economy unlike the douches born here. I say we kick alot of our "born American"s out and let a whole lot of aliens in. Especialy kick the born Americans out from up north sense they love to bitch about this country. Go move to France nut gobbler..
There was something that almost made sense in there, but I couldn't find it amongst all of the hackery. :rolleyes:

I've already made my point, but you are either dim, or deliberately ignoring it. Maybe this will help. If it doesn't, I'll try to distill it into monosyllabic grunts you are better prepared to understand.

http://www.dallasfed.org/research/papers/2003/wp0303.pdf
Thanks for resorting to flaming rather than actually bothering to continue a discussion.

No. You didn't make your point. You simply made tenuous connections between crime and illegal immigration. That's not a point. I can draw connections between gum chewing and car accidents, and provide stats to prove that they are linked, but I haven't made a point.

So try again.

Or just keep getting pissy.

Um...I'm not sure what the problem with left=open borders is...I support open borders in the US, Canada, and in ALL countries. However, I wouldn't want them suddenly opened with no warning. I would like to see a gradual relaxation of immigration policies, and a MOVE to more open borders. And I'm a small-hearted left nutwing.
The problem is, it's not as if the immigration levels would ever "drop off" on any length timeline.

In your socialist ideal (and Canada is always getting closer), there never could be a "transition period". People are always being born in poor countries. They'll always arrive in desperate need of your socialized services.

That's not going to stop, no matter how much time you give it.

At best, you could only "relax slightly" your border policies, but they couldn't ever reach the point of being truly "open". Not even close.

Unless you'd like to transition toward lassaiz-faire capitalism as well.

(You cracked me up with that last sentence, Sin! :D )

Thanks for resorting to flaming rather than actually bothering to continue a discussion.

No. You didn't make your point. You simply made tenuous connections between crime and illegal immigration. That's not a point. I can draw connections between gum chewing and car accidents, and provide stats to prove that they are linked, but I haven't made a point.

So try again.

Or just keep getting pissy.
Read the damned link. The connection is anything but tenuous.

If I have to resort to flaming, it's because this is not a discussion any longer. Being asked to repeat myself is not a conversation.

Fair enough, however the topic of undervalued immigrants working jobs they are completely overqualified for is another matter. What President Fox is advocating is for the poor of his country to run pell-mell into the U.S. to work in order to bring American dollars back to his impoverished nation to bolster the economy...not exactly the most ethical political move, in my opinion.
Well, don't look to politicians for ethical political moves:)

Immigration to politicians is a much different issue than it is to those who wish to immigrate. And remitances are a huge part of many nation's economies. Look at India. LEGAL Indian immigrants overseas make a huge contribution to the Indian economy through remitances.

To the people actually immigrating, legally or not, it isn't about supporting their home nation's economy. It's about supporting their families. Most of them look at it as a short-term thing...and many are separated from their loved ones during that time. They want to make a bit of money, and leave. So, make sure they are taxed, let them work, and leave.

*snip*
Oh...I see...you are equating left with socialist. Therein lies the problem. Not all left wingers are...many are libertarians who want less government control. I'm slowly inching my way further in that direction. So then the slow relaxation would work. :p

American immigration laws, and especially border laws in this instance, need to be changed. Lots of other laws need to be changed. For that matter, there are tons of laws I, an American citizen, do not "respect." What does that mean? Should I be extradited for disrespect? Have you ever jaywalked?

Very nice of you to compare jaywalking with violent crime, drug trade, kidnapping, extortion, fraud, and identity theft.

I did not say *always*, but there is documentation to support high incidents of these crimes involving illegal immigrants.

And plenty to link people born in the US with it too.

Your point is?


Read the damned link. The connection is anything but tenuous.

If I have to resort to flaming, it's because this is not a discussion any longer. Being asked to repeat myself is not a conversation.
So your point then, according to what you've been saying is that you will happily ignore the US-born lawbreakers who commit violent crime, get involved in the drug trade, in kidnapping, extortion, fraud and identify theft, but you will get all frothy at the mouth over illegals who do it. You have not proven with your link (or stated as a point) that illegals commit this crime MORE than US-born criminals. You have not made a point that stopping illegals would make a big dent in this sort of crime. In short, you have not made a point at all. So if I ask you to repeat yourself, to make yourself clear, try it. It might help your argument, because right now, you don't have one.

Oh...I see...you are equating left with socialist. Therein lies the problem. Not all left wingers are...many are libertarians who want less government control. I'm slowly inching my way further in that direction. So then the slow relaxation would work. :p
Wow, cool. What happened while I've been moving and trining my puppy?
You used to be very much socialist (at least you came off that way here on NS)... but people do change, and I'd say that in that case, you're no more right or left than I am.

We're up or down, but never right or left. That's a tired dichotomy, indeed.

Wow, cool. What happened while I've been moving and trining my puppy?
You used to be very much socialist (at least you came off that way here on NS)... but people do change, and I'd say that in that case, you're no more right or left than I am.

We're up or down, but never right or left. That's a tired dichotomy, indeed.
You're right, (left?)...I did come on as a socialistic-type. Well...sort of. I did make this big announcement about my switch...what I couldn't reconcile was my mistrust and disgust of government, and I always wanted more direct democracy, though I still think certain essential services are best provided by a government (health and education for starters). When I redid my political compass, I hadn't actually changed my mind on any issues...kind of weird;)

Right, left...whatever. I'm pro human, anti-idiot, and into big lunches.

i'm conflicted by this issue. on one hand, they are in the United States illegally. they are breaking the law. some of the jobs they take might be lower than minimum wage which does hurt those americans trying to get jobs. on the other hand, they are hardworkers and are just trying to make a better life for themselves. that puts them higher on my list than a lot of welfare americans.

the mexican government advocates this because about $1 billion flows back to mexico every year from illegals working in the states.

i have a friend from mexico city and even he realizes that mexico is a disaster. back in the early 1900s, mexico had industrial jobs comparable to the united states. its just that the pay scale hasn't increased at all. he sees the problem now that the smart, hard-working individuals who would drive up wages are all going to the united states. its a bad situation with no real solution.

So your point then, according to what you've been saying is that you will happily ignore the US-born lawbreakers who commit violent crime, get involved in the drug trade, in kidnapping, extortion, fraud and identify theft, but you will get all frothy at the mouth over illegals who do it. You have not proven with your link (or stated as a point) that illegals commit this crime MORE than US-born criminals. You have not made a point that stopping illegals would make a big dent in this sort of crime. In short, you have not made a point at all. So if I ask you to repeat yourself, to make yourself clear, try it. It might help your argument, because right now, you don't have one.
Quit trolling, and then getting upset when I react.

Quit trolling, and then getting upset when I react.
I've asked you to clarify your point. You have refused. You have flamed. You have accused me of trolling. I'm not the one reacting emotionally. Once more, please clarify your point.

I provided solid evidence to support my position, and you responded with reductio ad absurdum...

can draw connections between gum chewing and car accidents, and provide stats to prove that they are linked, but I haven't made a point.


... and ad hominem (too much to bother quoting). You're either not interested in debate, or do not have a proper understanding of how it is done. I will not be drawn into a flame war with you. Go bother someone else.

I provided solid evidence to support my position, and you responded with reductio ad absurdum...



... and ad hominem (too much to bother quoting). You're either not interested in debate, or do not have a proper understanding of how it is done. I will not be drawn into a flame war with you. Go bother someone else.
I've made a simple request, that you clarify your position. You are unwilling. Do not blame that unwillingness on me. I've been sitting here waiting for a debate. Instead, you respond with a number of pointless, off topic posts. Now that I am clear you will not be actually making any points, I will stop expecting you to.

I've made a simple request, that you clarify your position. You are unwilling. Do not blame that unwillingness on me. I've been sitting here waiting for a debate. Instead, you respond with a number of pointless, off topic posts. Now that I am clear you will not be actually making any points, I will stop expecting you to.
Naturally I'm the one responding emotionally, because I'm not the one trolling.

You have repeated ad nauseum that I need to clarify. And I have done so. This is very tiresome. Did you have a particular question, or did the entire argument go over your head?

I don't know if any of you have seen the Coneheads. But one of the characters has an idea that all of the Illegal immergrants have to wear a collar and be shipped back into their country. We would bury an invisible fence at the border. If they try to cross our borders would be electricuted.

Naturally I'm the one responding emotionally, because I'm not the one trolling.

You have repeated ad nauseum that I need to clarify. And I have done so. This is very tiresome. Did you have a particular question, or did the entire argument go over your head?
Hi pot, I'm kettle. Funny, I haven't seen you even address the point in the last handful of posts you've made.

Question being, "What do you base your stand on illegal immigration on?"

You provided a link and said that illegal immigrants are involved in certain specific criminal activities. My question after that was,

"Are you saying that illegal immigrants are committing these crimes more than US-born criminals, and do you think that stopping illegal immigration will cause those crime rates to decline?"

Now, can you possibly stop with the flaming long enough to actually give a straight answer?

I don't know if any of you have seen the Coneheads. But one of the characters has an idea that all of the Illegal immergrants have to wear a collar and be shipped back into their country. We would bury an invisible fence at the border. If they try to cross our borders would be electricuted.
And how would you make sure these collars weren't removed?

By the way Cabinia, the source you provided (without explanation) has this to say,

"...career criminals are not typically recent illegal immigrants, but rather green card holders, or U.S. citizens who reside in Mexico and cross the border legally to commit crimes on the U.S. side (U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform, 1994)." (bottom of page 1)

So again...what is your point?

Hi pot, I'm kettle. Funny, I haven't seen you even address the point in the last handful of posts you've made.

Question being, "What do you base your stand on illegal immigration on?"

You provided a link and said that illegal immigrants are involved in certain specific criminal activities. My question after that was,

"Are you saying that illegal immigrants are committing these crimes more than US-born criminals, and do you think that stopping illegal immigration will cause those crime rates to decline?"

Now, can you possibly stop with the flaming long enough to actually give a straight answer?
We've identified the problem. You didn't read post 85, or the ones I wrote shortly afterwards expanding on it.

Picking a single point of my conversation with Santa Barbara on crime and then randomly asking "what's your point?" is very different from asking, "what do you base your stand on illegal immigration on?"

To answer your new question, read #85, in which I discuss a variety of negative consequences of illegal immigration, of which increased crime is only one. And it is by no means a comprehensive list.

Another gem from the same page,

"...Butcher and Piehl by using Census data on institutionalized individuals show that immigrant men, despite their lower education levels, have lower institutionalization rates than native-born men."

By the way Cabinia, the source you provided (without explanation) has this to say,

"...career criminals are not typically recent illegal immigrants, but rather green card holders, or U.S. citizens who reside in Mexico and cross the border legally to commit crimes on the U.S. side (U.S. Commission on Immigration Reform, 1994)." (bottom of page 1)

So again...what is your point?

Keep reading in that article and you'll find that illegal immigrants lead to more crime for two reasons: they are more vulnerable to crime, and they employ smugglers who are likely to commit crime. Crime is higher due to the presence of illegal immigrants, with the associated social and economic costs.

Keep reading in that article and you'll find that illegal immigrants lead to more crime for two reasons: they are more vulnerable to crime, and they employ smugglers who are likely to commit crime. Crime is higher due to the presence of illegal immigrants, with the associated social and economic costs.
Why are they more vulnerable to crime, and why do they employ criminal smugglers?

Because the immigration laws are too stringent, and once they arrive illegally (if they make it), they are at a distinct legal disadvantage, making it easier to exploit them.

It seems as though you are blaming the immigrants themselves for this instead of the system that perpetuates this problem.

What would you like to see in terms of immigration? Tougher standards? More border controls? What?

Picking a single point of my conversation with Santa Barbara on crime and then randomly asking "what's your point?" is very different from asking, "what do you base your stand on illegal immigration on?"


Of course I read post 85. And the ones after. I was speaking to a specific point you made about immigration and crime. My question of "what's your point" was in the context of your comment, and I did not expect that you would be so confused by it, and considering it trolling.

I've already made my point, but you are either dim, or deliberately ignoring it. Maybe this will help. If it doesn't, I'll try to distill it into monosyllabic grunts you are better prepared to understand.

http://www.dallasfed.org/research/papers/2003/wp0303.pdf

I'd be careful here, friend. I don't think you want to start flaming. Nor do I think you should call someone asking you a reasonable question a troll.

Outside of that, I read the entire document. The connections are specious and tenuous at best. Even your evidence suggests that increase in violent crimes related to illegal immigrants is likely related to the criminals (non-illegal immigrants) that are capitalizing on illegal immigration. The fact that this crime is related to illegal immigration hardly faults the illegal immigrants. There is also a huge amount of violent crime related to marijuana, but that hardly suggests marijuana is the cause. On the contrary, it's suggestive that making marijuana illegal causes an increase in violent crime.

Of course I read post 85. And the ones after. I was speaking to a specific point you made about immigration and crime. My question of "what's your point" was in the context of your comment, and I did not expect that you would be so confused by it, and considering it trolling.
Then kindly point out at what point you asked the alleged "what do you base your stand on illegal immigration on?" question.

Teenagers learn to amuse themselves and irritate their parents by replying "Why?", ad nauseum, to every response. You've simply updated the game to "What's your point?" I quit, so go play with yourself.

Then kindly point out at what point you asked the alleged "what do you base your stand on illegal immigration on?" question.

I just may go play with myself:)

You are unreal. And funny...I wonder if this is satire. I posed the question, "what do you base your stand on illegal immigration on" so that you would not continue to be so terribly confused by my request for clarification, flame me, and call me a troll for asking for that clarification. Clearly, you were no longer sure what the topic was, and I thought it best to reorient you. But it seems that has only confused you further. So go on...quit, leave, whatever. You weren't providing any answers anyway, just dodging them, and pointing at previous posts as though you've already said it all, and nothing more needs to be added. Rather like, suggesting a link, (without coming right out and saying "I think this causes that") and posting a source, saying, "You read this if you want to know my position". The onus is not on the rest of us to figure out your position, your point, and what you want to say. You should be able to sum up your position yourself, then defend it.

Perhaps you simply haven't been around this forum long enough to know that people here aren't going to take your sources as undeniable proof, or as a substitute for your own position. It's up to YOU to make yourself clear.

I'd be careful here, friend. I don't think you want to start flaming. Nor do I think you should call someone asking you a reasonable question a troll.

I don't know you. You are not my friend.

Outside of that, I read the entire document. The connections are specious and tenuous at best. Even your evidence suggests that increase in violent crimes related to illegal immigrants is likely related to the criminals (non-illegal immigrants) that are capitalizing on illegal immigration. The fact that this crime is related to illegal immigration hardly faults the illegal immigrants. There is also a huge amount of violent crime related to marijuana, but that hardly suggests marijuana is the cause. On the contrary, it's suggestive that making marijuana illegal causes an increase in violent crime.

Then what you have here is an argument for decriminalizing illegal immigration. However, the parallels with marijuana and illegal immigration end at crime. For example, marijuana does not cause loss of job opportunities for non-users, nor suppress their wages. Marijuana does not affect the quality of education offered to non-users. Marijuana does not lead to massive increases in state-funded medical costs.

I have a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting illegal immigrants committing crime, but anecodotes don't prove anything. However, I would like to point out that a lot of crime committed by illegals goes undocumented, due to false identities.

I just may go play with myself:)

You are unreal. And funny...I wonder if this is satire. I posed the question, "what do you base your stand on illegal immigration on" so that you would not continue to be so terribly confused by my request for clarification. Clearly, you were no longer sure what the topic was, and I thought it best to reorient you. But it seems that has only confused you further. So go on...quit, leave, whatever. You weren't providing any answers anyway, just dodging them, and pointing at previous posts as though you've already said it all, and nothing more needs to be added. Rather like, suggesting a link, (without coming right out and saying "I think this causes that") and posting a source, saying, "You read this if you want to know my position". Rather lazy tactics. You should be able to sum up your position yourself, then defend it.

Perhaps you simply haven't been around this forum long enough to know that people here aren't going to take your sources as undeniable proof, or as a substitute for your own position.

Troll along, trollie-polly.

Troll along, trollie-polly.
Duly reported to moderation.

Duly reported to moderation.
Good.

My response to that is as long as we give free hand outs with welfare, there will be jobs American are unwilling to work. Get rid of the handouts and I bet you will see a whole lot of people willing to pick strawberries or clean houses. If they would rather starve then work, that's just as good.

A true humanitarian.

Able to combine racism, zenophobia, and class warfare all in one foul swoop.

My two cents.

First, before anybody says anything about racism or something stupid as such, my grandmother lives here, legally, from Mexico. My girlfriend(soon to be wife) imigrated legally from Africa.

First, I think employers who knowingly hire an illegal, eg no SS card or the like, should face stiff penalties AND jail time.

Second, I think the naturalization laws should change so an illegal can't come here just to give birth.

Third, ALL support for illegals should cease as of NOW. Kick the kids out of school, deport the families. Yes, it is harsh, but they are screwing up things for honest hard working families.

Now, don't think I'm heartless and against imigration. I love my grandma and my gf very much. But, there is a right way and a wrong way to do this. If you want over here, then do it properly. Get your papers, get permission, then welcom to America. I support LEGAL imigration.

PS To quote Ted Nugent, "If you can't speak the language, get the &$^% out of the country."

PSS Political asylum is still a legal mode of getting in the US, even if just temporary.

Ted Nugent. The great lawmaker.

Familiar with the 14th Amendment:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

There went your and Ted's little theory about children born in the U.S.

Vicente Fox is crazy like a... well, fox, on the issue of immigration. He knows that his country is a cesspool, and his government and police are corrupt. The US provides a safety valve for keeping him in power. Radical elements who would normally rise up in revolt against his government will go violate US laws instead.

Also, immigrants send home money to their families at such a rate that it props up the feeble Mexican economy. Remittances from the US are difficult to track, but those we do know of show that it makes up the second largest income source in the nation, right behind oil exports.

So immigration is great for Mexico. And the US gets the shaft. Here's why:

It's a common myth that illegal immigrants work only in jobs Americans would not take. That is a bald-faced lie. They can obtain false documentation at a reasonable rate ($300), and with that in hand, they can work anywhere. They also create cottage industries, hire on with sub-contractors, and go to work in legitimate businesses that their fellows have opened ahead of them. They provide the overwhelming majority of the skilled labor force in the American southwest... so much so that managers are being turned away from job opportunities if they can't speak Spanish.

Meanwhile, we have American urban minorities who feels there are no opportunities out there for them, so they turn to guns, drugs, and gangs. Net gain for the US? Uhhh... no.

Those illegals who work in legitimate businesses with false papers pay into the federal government coffers, and they can never claim their social security benefits, so this represents a net gain for the US. However, the majority of illegals who work outside the economy, being paid under the table, pay nothing into government coffers (except for the little bit of sales tax collected by the state, etc.). They do make claims, however, in the form of medical expenses and education. For every dollar illegals contribute to the government, they extract three. Net gain for the US? Uhhh... no.

Additionally, any Southwestern school is going to be heavily populated by children who are not native English speakers. In a class where 60% of the kids speak Spanish at home, how quickly will language lessons progress? And what is the cost to the further preparation of the native speakers?

Incidentally, that last problem is not limited to illegal immigrants. It's a common attitude among legal immigrants that it is their duty to teach the child Spanish, and leave English to the schools.

And I haven't even begun to address the illegal immigrant contribution to crime, and its associated costs. People who disrespect American immigration law often show a disrespect to other laws as well.

Nice use of stereotypes as an alternative to facts.

Facts are pesky and can get in the way of irrational prejudices. We wouldn't want that.

It's not icing on the cake. It's someone from another country snatching cake off of a citizen's plate. The jobs done by illegal aliens could be done by citizens.

You fail to follow along.

The US benefits from illegal immigrants. Contrary to popular belief, they put more into the system than they take.

Nice use of stereotypes as an alternative to facts.

Facts are pesky and can get in the way of irrational prejudices. We wouldn't want that.
Interesting. I have an irrational prejudice. Is this an argument?

...

I just checked my references, and no, it isn't. It's an ad hominem attack.

I've presented my arguments. Now present your "facts" that dispute them. This is how discussions generally work.

You fail to follow along.

The US benefits from illegal immigrants. Contrary to popular belief, they put more into the system than they take.
Wrong. http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

This is not about race. The US government decides who's supposed to be here. The US government has decided that the only people who can move here are those who have gone through the process to become citizens or secured a work or student visa. It doesn't matter what color they are.

Actually, it has a lot to do with race. And politics.

Some nations have more favored immigration status than others. We tend to be a lot more comfortable with white people immigrating here than brown people. (Unless they are Cuban. Then they have a get in free card.)

Saying the "U.S government has decided" to defend a government policy is circular at best.

Wrong. http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/immigrationnaturalizatio/a/caillegals.htm

How persuasive. A study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which is "a nonprofit, public-interest, membership organization advocating immigration policy reforms that would tighten border security and prevent illegal immigration, while reducing legal immigration levels from about 1.1 million persons per year to 300,000 per year."

Nice how they oppose both illegal and legal immigration, huh?

Kind of undermines your argument a tad.

Why does the Mexican swim team never win an olympic medal?
Because all the Mexicans who can swim are in the USA.

How droll.

Actually, it has a lot to do with race. And politics.

Some nations have more favored immigration status than others. We tend to be a lot more comfortable with white people immigrating here than brown people. (Unless they are Cuban. Then they have a get in free card.)

Saying the "U.S government has decided" to defend a government policy is circular at best.

White people are favored? I didn't realize Asia and Latin America had such large white populations:

"In recent years, the largest group of legal immigrants have come from Asia (37%), followed by Mexico/the Caribbean/Central America (32%), and Europe (18%). About 150,000 people apply for political asylum annually, and the backlog of applications for political asylum stands at about 450,000."

http://www.immigration-usa.com/debate.html

Read the damned link. The connection is anything but tenuous.

If I have to resort to flaming, it's because this is not a discussion any longer. Being asked to repeat myself is not a conversation.

Being asked to prove up wild-assed assertions is hardly an attack.

Your "damned link" (well named) hardly supports you. Did you actually read it before posting it?

Being asked to prove up wild-assed assertions is hardly an attack.

Your "damned link" (well named) hardly supports you. Did you actually read it before posting it?

Ha, I noticed that, too. Then he got so mad at Sinuhue for asking him to explain what the point of the link was since it didn't match his argument.

How persuasive. A study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which is "a nonprofit, public-interest, membership organization advocating immigration policy reforms that would tighten border security and prevent illegal immigration, while reducing legal immigration levels from about 1.1 million persons per year to 300,000 per year."

Nice how they oppose both illegal and legal immigration, huh?

Kind of undermines your argument a tad.
Ad hominem (not at me, but at the source). If FAIR's numbers are wrong, then they are wrong. Kindly point me to a study by another source that invalidates their findings.

I do have another report that validates FAIR's research, from the Center for Immigration Studies. It's a lot to digest, but here's an elegant summary: http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/pdfs/cost_of_illegal_immigration.pdf

Of particular interest is the point that illegals will cost the government $2700 more per household in government services than they will contribute, creating a net $10B deficit, which pretty much invalidates your theory.

Being asked to prove up wild-assed assertions is hardly an attack.

Your "damned link" (well named) hardly supports you. Did you actually read it before posting it?
What's your point?

Ha, I noticed that, too. Then he got so mad at Sinuhue for asking him to explain what the point of the link was since it didn't match his argument.
It did match the point. Try to keep up.

You're totally missing the point. The point is that the media and immigration apologists like to say that illegals ONLY work in jobs that Americans would not take.

Ohhh. So your point was to bitch because the media sucks. Guess what, I hate the media too. So what was the point of your point, other than generalized ranting?

They work in a great deal of professions that Americans would be glad to take. Do you really think an urban youth would feel trapped in gangs if he could easily get a job as a drywaller? A mechanic?

I think there's more to this gang thing than not enough jobs. And I've never denied this fact, in fact I questioned why you wanted to take away a large portion of skilled as well as unskilled labor. Why make the job market less competitive? Are you against outsourcing too? How about private ownership?

A large pool of illegal workers in skilled labor means fewer jobs of this type for urban youths, higher competition, lower wages, etc. We have plenty of workers for the skilled labor force right here.

Oh no! Competition! Teh horror!

While we're at it, let's prevent women from working to protect the jobs of men - we already have plenty of male workers, why saturate the job market?

Pop quiz, ace. You live in a neighborhood where the school is a joke, where the teachers hardly make an effort because they don't have proper materials and are scared for their lives. You're scared for your own. So you leave school totally unprepared for college, or even a trade school... even if you could afford it. The only people hiring are WalMart, at minimum wage. What kind of a future do you see for yourself?

Oh, well, a life of crime and gang rivalry, of course! Yes, let's remove all personal responsibility. Let's ignore the existence of public libraries or free will. Let's forget the lessons of America with it's history of upward social mobility and pretend that if you are born in the ghetto you have no choice but to be a loser. That'll help reinforce the victimhood cult of the wannabe "gangstas" taking to the "gangsta" imitation because it appeals to their sense of unfair deprivation and learned helplessness. That'll make the life actually appealing. Certainly more appealing than working constantly and going to school on your own effort, right? Sigh..

Same situation, but there is a building explosion in the next valley. They need anybody who can swing a hammer, and are paying top dollar. Now what kind of a future do you see for yourself?

Okay. So, you are saying that people with skills and job requirements go for and get the jobs that are required. But you are saying it is unfair for illegals to do so because they get the easy ride, subsidized by the state, etc. And yet my point which you ignored about when I said "Americans can do it too" is that they CAN and do get those easy breaks by cheating the system too. THAT is the problem, not the fact that people live here who can - potentially - do that.

It's outside the economy because it is production that is unaccounted for and unregulated... the very definition of "black market."

Yeah, but that distinction is because GDP is calculated in the 'non-black' market. But GDP is not the economy, it's only a method of measuring it. The entire USSR private market was "black" but that didn't mean it didn't count, or have an effect on the economy.

There are no reliable stats concerning illegals and the jobs they take, but let's just say I have my sources for inside information.

Let's just pretend personal experience isn't enough here...

My own wife originally came to this country illegally, and a lot of her family are still here illegally. I've met extended family and friends, and heard a lot of anecdotes. They paint a very different picture than what the media presents.

This media thing is beginning to be a strawman, since I am not the media nor have I agreed with it. (As if it had only a single opinion, a single slant!?)

They are, however, supposed to be paid for, and everyone needs to pay their share. Illegals burden the system by not paying their share, which means your taxes are higher.

Lots of things burden the tax system. Few things in government are efficient. Taxes are not good in general. So why is this any worse? It'd be less of a problem if the borders were freer instead of tighter, since we wouldn't need an army to 'protect' all those jobs.

If immigration was taking place on scale with legal quotas, the overwhelming majority of class populations would be fluent English speakers. The problem of language is usually solved in the second generation, and definitely beyond.


Man, according to the British the majority of America hasn't been fluent in English for centuries. Is language such a problem you cannot learn it, but you expect others to learn it? How much of the world speaks English and yet how many Americans speak any other language? That is a problem not helped by the stance taken by xenophobes.


Very nice of you to compare jaywalking with violent crime, drug trade, kidnapping, extortion, fraud, and identity theft.

You are being purposfully (hopefully) foolish if you honestly think I was comparing them in brutality or significance or in any other way except this: they are all crimes. If your problem with immigration is that it's being done ILLEGALLY, then it makes sense you have a problem with criminality itself.

If that's not your problem, if you think crime is OK to do now and then if you think its a good reason, then what IS your problem? Other than the usual anti-free market excuse of 'protecting the jobs' so that the 'right' people can get them, instead of what the market needs.

Ad hominem (not at me, but at the source). If FAIR's numbers are wrong, then they are wrong. Kindly point me to a study by another source that invalidates their findings.

I do have another report that validates FAIR's research, from the Center for Immigration Studies. It's a lot to digest, but here's an elegant summary: http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/pdfs/cost_of_illegal_immigration.pdf

Of particular interest is the point that illegals will cost the government $2700 more per household in government services than they will contribute, creating a net $10B deficit, which pretty much invalidates your theory.

So are you making the claim that we shouldn't allow aliens here at all unless they have a certain education level? Because that study doesn't say illegal aliens are the problem, but uneducated immigrants.

It did match the point. Try to keep up.

Do you notice how no one who read it seems to agree with you? Maybe it's just that all of us educated people are having a hard time specifically seeing what you're trying to say or, perhaps, you're not clearly stating exactly what it is you're trying to show. So far most of your links suggest that illegal aliens aren't the problem.

So are you making the claim that we shouldn't allow aliens here at all unless they have a certain education level? Because that study doesn't say illegal aliens are the problem, but uneducated immigrants.
The point is people such as Sinuhue and CSW have made claims that illegal immigrants give a net gain into America's economy. CSW gave a nice bit from the Economist saying that.
Cabinia has at least given a source that says the opposite. According to CIS, illegals do take out $10billion more than they give. Whatever the reason why, according to this, they do.

I hate Mexico, the govt. trys to get its people over here. Than when Arizona cut off benefits to illegals, the Mexican govt. got mad.

I think the US should buy a small island and put all illegals there. Than they can say, ok you are in the US, have a nice life.

I hate Mexico, the govt. trys to get its people over here. Than when Arizona cut off benefits to illegals, the Mexican govt. got mad.
I hate the Mexican government too.

I think the US should buy a small island and put all illegals there. Than they can say, ok you are in the US, have a nice life.
Isn't that what Puerto Rico is for?

zenophobia

admittedly, those paradoxes might possibly be considered disturbing, but that's no reason to fear the guy - he's long dead.

The point is people such as Sinuhue and CSW have made claims that illegal immigrants give a net gain into America's economy.
Actually, as I've stipulated previously, my opinions are just that. Opinions. I talk about net gain not only in dollars, but in cultural value, which is extremely difficult to define or quantify. I'm willing to look at evidence presented, but I refuse to simply accept that evidence without discussing it.

Also, I am less interested in immigration as a profit/loss model as I am as a human rights issue. I also look at if from a Canadian viewpoint, since our immigration patterns are very different from the patterns found in the US. Profit/loss is a simplistic and reductionist viewpoint that interests me very little.

I think the US should buy a small island and put all illegals there. Than they can say, ok you are in the US, have a nice life.
Oooh...ooh...maybe Puerto Rico...? :p

Oooh...ooh...maybe Puerto Rico...? :p
Maybe something in the Bearing Sea. They could go crab fishing for money. I hear it pays really well. Plus they can drill for oil up there.

Maybe something in the Bearing Sea. They could go crab fishing for money. I hear it pays really well. Plus they can drill for oil up there.
Now that's just being cruel and unusual...dropping a bunch of people used to 40 degrees Celcius into a place where 40 below Celcius is the norm...

You're meaner than I thought! :p

Now that's just being cruel and unusual...dropping a bunch of people used to 40 degrees Celcius into a place where 40 below Celcius is the norm...

You're meaner than I thought! :p
I'm just trying to make sure that the price of gasoline and Alaska King Crabs don't get out of the reach of US citizens.

Maybe something in the Bearing Sea. They could go crab fishing for money. I hear it pays really well. Plus they can drill for oil up there.

good call. send whitey to the aleutians!

good call. send whitey to the aleutians!
I thought we were talking about latinos?

I thought we were talking about latinos?

Good, I'm not the only one confused.

good call. send whitey to the aleutians!
Who's whitey? Wasn't he one of the kids on Leave it to Beaver?

I'm just trying to make sure that the price of gasoline and Alaska King Crabs don't get out of the reach of US citizens.
But if you make them TOO cheap, you run the risk of glutting the market and decreasing the value, or even depleting reserves...JUST THINK OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!! No more all you can eat crab leg night....THE HORROR!

Oh yeah, the no more gas thing might be bad too.

Who's whitey? Wasn't he one of the kids on Leave it to Beaver?
I thought it was that chick that keeps letting Bobby Brown beat her down?

I thought it was that chick that keeps letting Bobby Brown beat her down?
That would be Whitney.

I thought we were talking about latinos?

latinos aren't the biggest problem when it comes to immigrants. its all those white folks.

That would be Whitney.
I think it's funny you actually replied to that lame excuse at humour :D

But if you make them TOO cheap, you run the risk of glutting the market and decreasing the value, or even depleting reserves...JUST THINK OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING!! No more all you can eat crab leg night....THE HORROR!

Oh yeah, the no more gas thing might be bad too.
You mean I won't be able to drive my V8 Ford to Atlantic City, gamble up an apatite, and then gorge myself at the all you can eat crableg buffet in the Taj Mahal casino? I take it all back. Please don't take away my reason for living!

Die, Thread, Die!!!

Die, Thread, Die!!!
Sorry. My fault entirely.

Sorry. My fault entirely.

It really is and now this horrible humor is spreading to other threads. That's the true HORROR.

Now that's just being cruel and unusual...dropping a bunch of people used to 40 degrees Celcius into a place where 40 below Celcius is the norm...

You're meaner than I thought! :p


They're adapting pretty well where I live. A few that worked all winter at a local car wash wound up wearing a few of my coats. Hooded sweatshirts and denim jackets are brutal in windy/wet 20 degree weather.

http://img161.echo.cx/img161/4436/aleutians0uc.jpg

It really is and now this horrible humor is spreading to other threads. That's the true HORROR.
I'm not actually human. I'm a bacteria.

http://img161.echo.cx/img161/4436/aleutians0uc.jpg
Hahehehehahahaohohohoho...

So what's with whitey anyway?

*inspired....*

So what's with whitey anyway?

it's a stock phrase from the 60s. like calling cops 'pigs'. and unless i'm horribly mistaken, both come from the black panthers.

I'm not actually human. I'm a bacteria.

Oh, oh, infect me, baby.