NationStates Jolt Archive

Suicide is hard to deal with. It's hard to talk about. Deaths relating to suicides are rarely published in the media unless they involve violence to others (a conscious decision made by media and suicide-prevention groups), and people in general usually don't know how they should approach the subject; so many simply avoid it.

I'd like to lift the veil today. I have lost many friends and relatives to suicide. I have lost community members, students, acquaintances, young and old and I have worked with people who themselves have be impacted by suicide. Yes, it's hard to talk about, but we SHOULD be talking about it. It happens much more than people think, and awareness is vital.

Some stats:

The World Health Organization estimates that in the year 2000 approximately one million people will die from suicide. A global mortality rate of 16 per 100,000. One death every 40 seconds.

The WHO further reports that:

In the last 45 years suicide rates have increased by 60% worldwide. Suicide is now among the three leading causes of death among those aged 15-44 (both sexes). Suicide attempts are up to 20 times more frequent than completed suicides.

Although suicide rates have traditionally been highest among elderly males, rates among young people have been increasing to such an extent that they are now the group at highest risk in a third of all countries.

Mental disorders (particularly depression and substance abuse) are associated with more than 90% of all cases of suicide. However, suicide results from many complex sociocultural factors and is more likely to occur during periods of socioeconomic, family and individual crisis (e.g. loss of a loved one, employment, honour).

In the US, suicide is the eigth leading cause of death.

Some stats:

In the US, suicide is the eigth leading cause of death.

The US doesn't have a problem at all, when compared to Finland.

The US doesn't have a problem at all, when compared to Finland.
That doesn't take into account that suicide rates are higher within certain populations either. It's a pretty vague stat, really, but it does highlight that it is a bit more of a problem than many people think.

this is one of the main reasons i keep saying something (i don't know what) is desperatley wrong with the world - depression and suicide rates are rising year by year... something is causing this, something big. wish i knew what.

i say if there wasn't such negative stigma attached to suicide, an attitude of 'if you consider suicide you are weak', then people would be more willing to talk about their problems. awareness is important but as is, in this context, some level of acceptance

The US doesn't have a problem at all, when compared to Finland.
Oh, and please don't compare countries to countries and then decide something is not a problem. (I don't think you meant it that way)

That doesn't mean you can ignore it.

The rate of suicide here is high, but as you say, people just pretend to ignore it. Given the high rate, Belfast City Council launched an initiative recently in order to get people in emotional difficulties to speak up, but sadly, I've heard little about that recently. I would surmise that a lot of the problem occurs because people are worried about talking about how they feel...concerned, I suppose, about how others will react and label them.

I think the group here in Belfast most likely to commit suicide are young, gay men. I would imagine that's because some people continue to hold venomous opinions about homosexuality (for no real reason, as far as I can discern), and the people in question fear societal reaction to their sexuality. While it can be argued that you shouldn't take your own life because of the possible reaction of a small number of small-minded individuals, I can understand how alone people in the situation may feel, especially if family and friends are not accepting of who they really are.

My personal view is that all mental illness - including depression for whatever reason - should lose its stigma. Were that to happen, people may well be less scared about discussing their feelings, which would hopefully lead to a drop in the rate of suicide. But a lot of people are not prepared to even consider changing how they think and behave, which is deeply unfortunate.

In the US, suicide is the eigth leading cause of death.

I've actually only had one acquaitance commit suicide and a girlfriend who tried. My cousin, however, went to a school that graduated 28 kids and about a third of them have OD'ed or committed suicide (small town with an unusually high level of drug abuse). I think it's one of those issues that many genuinely have never been touched by or, in some cases, never realize they've been touched by, so they have a tendency to think it's someone else's problem or that it's something attempted only by a very select group of the mentally ill. I think it's good to get people to realize that this is not the case. There's a country song out by I think a 19-year-old singer that touches on the subject and I think is inspiring some discussion.

I've always said that civilisation as we know it is bad for you, mentally and physically. We need to change some things quite drasatically if we want the human race to continue to exist for much longer.

Awarness is very important...especially if you know of someone who has talked about committing suicide. Too often, we dismiss this kind of talk as attention seeking. Well, yes, it IS attention seeking...it's someone trying to get some help.

Males make up the majority of completions (successful suicides), in great part because they are likely to choose a more violent (and permanent) method to end their lives. Females attempt more, but because they generally choose different methods than males, the success rate is lower. That doesn't mean females are LESS suicidal than males just because they didn't die in their attempt.

Also, the most sensational (and usually noticed) suicides are among young people, but is actually older males (and females) that are MORE at risk of suicide than adolescents.

this is one of the main reasons i keep saying something (i don't know what) is desperatley wrong with the world - depression and suicide rates are rising year by year... something is causing this, something big. wish i knew what.

i say if there wasn't such negative stigma attached to suicide, an attitude of 'if you consider suicide you are weak', then people would be more willing to talk about their problems. awareness is important but as is, in this context, some level of acceptance

I question whether it's actually increasing in occurrence. As you said, most people are embarrassed by it, so when people commit suicide it is often hidden from everyone possible even at times the police or the coroner. I suspect that many OD's are actually suicides along with other supposed 'accidents'. As our science has improved I think we become better at collecting information of this type and may account for the apparent rise.

Doesn't mean it's not a problem. I think it is and always has been a problem that deserves more sensitivity than it gets.

Oh, and please don't compare countries to countries and then decide something is not a problem. (I don't think you meant it that way)
No, but I bet it's hard to ignore it in Finland.

I've always felt there's a thin line between suicide and euthanasia. I mean, if I can decide on a medical basis to end my life, then to me, severe and unremitting depression certainly counts as a plausible medical reason.

So, if I'm depressed, and I off myself here, it's suicide. If I go to the Netherlands and get a doctor's permission, it's euthanasia.

Is suicide always a bad thing? I've encountered more than a few suicides, and I haven't thought that all of them were unreasonable.

New Zealand is in the top 3 for suicide rates in the world, and I think our youth rate might still be #1. Strangely I don't directly know anyone who has killed themselves, but I can think of several people who know someone who has, including a guy I know who's mother jumped off a bridge.

I think it's one of those issues that many genuinely have never been touched by or, in some cases, never realize they've been touched by, so they have a tendency to think it's someone else's problem or that it's something attempted only by a very select group of the mentally ill.
That's a very good point. Suicide deaths are often hushed up for religious or personal reasons. It's very much a hidden thing in our society. And how do you deal with the survivors? People don't know. We have a hard time with death as it is...suicide is somehow worse. Imagine it...your coworker's parent dies. You offer your sympathy, and then find out that your coworker's parent committed suicide. Suddenly your whole take on the thing changes. You don't know how to react around the coworker. It's that sort of thing I'd like people to become more aware about too. What the survivors go through, and how you can deal with that.

Awarness is very important...especially if you know of someone who has talked about committing suicide. Too often, we dismiss this kind of talk as attention seeking. Well, yes, it IS attention seeking...it's someone trying to get some help.Yeah, that kind of attitude has always annoyed me. Having gone through years of clinical depression myself, it makes me mad when someone accusing me of just doing it to get attention. As you rightly say, I may well be doing so - but not just for the sake of it, it's only in order to get some help!

Furthermore, when I was at school, I had a friend who tried to kill herself on more than one occasion. People ended up getting sick of her attempts, and while I understood their frustration, their lack of willingness to even try to see her point of view really got on my nerves. I lost touch with the girl in question eventually (she left school after GCSE, I stayed on, we tried to keep in touch but numbers/emails etc changed, and it was lost in the end), but I heard second-hand that she developed quite severe schizophrenia eventually. Of course, the causes of that are unknown, but one can't help thinking, "if people had been more sympathetic, would it have got to that stage?" I'll never know, I suppose, but it was a sad case nonetheless.

I've never felt suicidal. I have been depressed and full of despair and felt like things could never be good again, but never contemplated suicide. My contemplations ran more towards creating a new identity and running away and starting over. Maybe I'm different. Or, may my despair has been bad for me, but no where near the scale of someone who choses to kill themselves.
I can only imagine how desperate someone must feel when they get to that point. I dont mean standing on a ledge, calling for attention. I mean the ones that do it alone an quiet and never spoke of it. I wonder if they expressed themselves to a trusted friend or relative if they would have been able to save themselves and improve the dire straights they were in. I bet a lot of people could have been saved if there was someone to talk to.

I question whether it's actually increasing in occurrence. As you said, most people are embarrassed by it, so when people commit suicide it is often hidden from everyone possible even at times the police or the coroner. I suspect that many OD's are actually suicides along with other supposed 'accidents'. As our science has improved I think we become better at collecting information of this type and may account for the apparent rise.

Doesn't mean it's not a problem. I think it is and always has been a problem that deserves more sensitivity than it gets.
Suicides are not always labelled as such by the coroner either. Someone is dragged, dead, out of a river. Did they jump or fall? If there is no compelling evidence that it was a suicide, it's listed as an accident. A student dies during a drinking and drug binge. Again, was the death intended, or a mistake? The stats are of limited usefulness.

I've always said that civilisation as we know it is bad for you, mentally and physically. We need to change some things quite drasatically if we want the human race to continue to exist for much longer.

Well put. As evolution is a slow process and things tend to be going at 100 kilometers a minute, we cannot help but to fight a loosing battle. Life is transient, we have to accept it. If some people cannot accept that a few people decide to end it all, their fault!

Suicide is alarmingly widespread in Finland, the Nordic countries and Ireland. There does appear to be a dramatic increase in depression, especially among the young. There seems to be something in western society that is overburdening us. I really don't know what we can do, to be honest, at least not without a radical overhaul in the way our societies are structured.

My sympathies to anyone here who has lost someone to suicide.

Awarness is very important...especially if you know of someone who has talked about committing suicide. Too often, we dismiss this kind of talk as attention seeking. Well, yes, it IS attention seeking...it's someone trying to get some help.

Males make up the majority of completions (successful suicides), in great part because they are likely to choose a more violent (and permanent) method to end their lives. Females attempt more, but because they generally choose different methods than males, the success rate is lower. That doesn't mean females are LESS suicidal than males just because they didn't die in their attempt.

Also, the most sensational (and usually noticed) suicides are among young people, but is actually older males (and females) that are MORE at risk of suicide than adolescents.

When my girlfriend attempted suicide, she told me the night before that she was having a really rough time of things and cried on my shoulder and whatnot. I talked to her until I fell asleep and then fell asleep myself. When I got up the morning she said she was feeling much better and I left to go to work. She took a bunch of pills no more than twenty minutes after I left. No one was supposed to be back till about eight hours later, but her parents came home unexpectedly about an hour later and found her. Had her parents not happened to have come home she would have certainly died.

I think about that day a lot. I always wonder what I could have done differently. I think one thing I learned is that if you think there's a problem there probably is. She got me to accept that she was just venting and upset and that talking about it had made her feel better but I was so worried that it wasn't true and I left anyway. I'd like to believe that if a similar situation arose that I would choose my girlfriend over work this time around.

No, but I bet it's hard to ignore it in Finland.
You'd think it'd be hard to ignore in aboriginal communities too...but someone it's just one of those things no one ever talks about...even when spring comes and there is a funeral about every week.

I've always felt there's a thin line between suicide and euthanasia. I mean, if I can decide on a medical basis to end my life, then to me, severe and unremitting depression certainly counts as a plausible medical reason.

So, if I'm depressed, and I off myself here, it's suicide. If I go to the Netherlands and get a doctor's permission, it's euthanasia.

Is suicide always a bad thing? I've encountered more than a few suicides, and I haven't thought that all of them were unreasonable.
No, suicide isn't always a bad thing. Have you read the book, "Final Exit"? It is a book on how to commit suicide (for medical reasons), and how to assit a suicide. It makes a very compelling argument about why this should be an option, and provides legal advice to the person who may be assisting. It also gives excellent information about methods that you should definately avoid (CO poisoning for one, as in sitting in a running car in the garage is one of the worst ways to go, despite popular myth to the contrary).

We should definately have control over our deaths. HOWEVER, I would not class the majority of suicides as euthanasia, because the people taking their own lives generally don't WANT to die...they just want the pain (emotional or physical) to end. If there is some way to end that pain short of death, they would take it.

Yeah, that kind of attitude has always annoyed me. Having gone through years of clinical depression myself, it makes me mad when someone accusing me of just doing it to get attention. As you rightly say, I may well be doing so - but not just for the sake of it, it's only in order to get some help!

Furthermore, when I was at school, I had a friend who tried to kill herself on more than one occasion. People ended up getting sick of her attempts, and while I understood their frustration, their lack of willingness to even try to see her point of view really got on my nerves. I lost touch with the girl in question eventually (she left school after GCSE, I stayed on, we tried to keep in touch but numbers/emails etc changed, and it was lost in the end), but I heard second-hand that she developed quite severe schizophrenia eventually. Of course, the causes of that are unknown, but one can't help thinking, "if people had been more sympathetic, would it have got to that stage?" I'll never know, I suppose, but it was a sad case nonetheless.

I wonder if someone that may be privately considering it and brought it up to test the waters-to see if friends would be immediately concerned and supportive or nervously dismiss it as being silly.
I guess we all need to be aware of our friends and family. A little interference could save a lot of pain and grief.
And how many suicides are brought on by a chemical imbalance/severe depresssion? How many are brought on from despair because of failure or stress? I'm not an expert by any means, but I think there are several different paths that can lead to suicide. Some people NEED medication and therapy. Some people NEED a friend and support.

I can only imagine how desperate someone must feel when they get to that point. I dont mean standing on a ledge, calling for attention. I mean the ones that do it alone an quiet and never spoke of it. I wonder if they expressed themselves to a trusted friend or relative if they would have been able to save themselves and improve the dire straights they were in. I bet a lot of people could have been saved if there was someone to talk to.
One of the biggest problems facing people who would wish to help others that are feeling suicidal is the fact that those people are so isolated by their pain, that it is hard for them to even see that someone is offering them the help they might need. They don't think that anyone can understand what they're going through, but they desperately NEED that understanding.

Suicides are not always labelled as such by the coroner either. Someone is dragged, dead, out of a river. Did they jump or fall? If there is no compelling evidence that it was a suicide, it's listed as an accident. A student dies during a drinking and drug binge. Again, was the death intended, or a mistake? The stats are of limited usefulness.


There have also been many cases where the decedent was masturbating and accidentally strangled themselves-I'm not positive, but I think its called autoerotocism? The intentional cutting off of oxygen till climax in an attempt to highten pleasure? Intending to avoid embarassment, some of these have been labeled suicides.

...I guess we all need to be aware of our friends and family. A little interference could save a lot of pain and grief...I think there are several different paths that can lead to suicide. Some people NEED medication and therapy. Some people NEED a friend and support.Definitely. I personally benefited from medication (and find myself sinking back into depression if I run out of it), but having said that, I recently realised how useful genuine support from friends and family actually is. My boyfriend, although he has never contemplated suicide, has suffered from depressive phases from time to time, and swares that all he needs is support and understanding from close friends. I suppose it all depends on the individual, and their individual problem.

One of the biggest problems facing people who would wish to help others that are feeling suicidal is the fact that those people are so isolated by their pain, that it is hard for them to even see that someone is offering them the help they might need. They don't think that anyone can understand what they're going through, but they desperately NEED that understanding.


Whats worse is that your perception could be that circumstances are so bad, its the end of your world-when a friend or relative could support and assist to help correct the problem or improve the conditions.

I think about that day a lot. I always wonder what I could have done differently. I think one thing I learned is that if you think there's a problem there probably is. She got me to accept that she was just venting and upset and that talking about it had made her feel better but I was so worried that it wasn't true and I left anyway. I'd like to believe that if a similar situation arose that I would choose my girlfriend over work this time around.Taking things seriously is important yes, but there also comes a point where you have to realise you do not have the power of life and death. Take EVERY threat of suicide seriously. But don't tear yourself apart if you missed the signs. We all do. The important thing is educating yourself about what those signs are, and learning how to deal with them if they arise. Sometimes there ARE no signs that you can see, and when it happens, you are left double-guessing yourself. This is why survivors of suicide also need support. It is a horrible, horrible thing to lose someone you love or know to suicide, and it involves a lot of guilt, and anger, and sadness. It is ALSO been proven that people who have lost someone to suicide, are more likely to commit suicide themselves. Not a monkey-see-monkey-do situation. More of a situation where that person never got help in coping with the death, or saw that method of ending their pain as a viable one.

My wife and I have a hard time with winter, and longer nights, and we're not even that far north.

I'm nearly at the end of the rope come early spring.

My wife and I have a hard time with winter, and longer nights, and we're not even that far north.

I'm nearly at the end of the rope come early spring.I know exactly what you mean. I definitely feel better come Spring or Summer. Luckily, this - Seasonal Affective Disorder - has been recognised as a legitimate problem. I got myself a wee light box for it here (http://www.outsidein.co.uk), and while it doesn't get rid of all the symptoms, it does help.

http://www.sada.org.uk/ also has some good advice.

Definitely. I personally benefited from medication (and find myself sinking back into depression if I run out of it), but having said that, I recently realised how useful genuine support from friends and family actually is. My boyfriend, although he has never contemplated suicide, has suffered from depressive phases from time to time, and swares that all he needs is support and understanding from close friends. I suppose it all depends on the individual, and their individual problem.

Its good to hear that you have been able to pinpoint the cause and succesfully treat it. I've gone through depression/anxiety from time to time over the years. a relatively small daily dose of lexapro helped take the edge off and I stopped taking it a year ago.

Suicides are not always labelled as such by the coroner either. Someone is dragged, dead, out of a river. Did they jump or fall? If there is no compelling evidence that it was a suicide, it's listed as an accident. A student dies during a drinking and drug binge. Again, was the death intended, or a mistake? The stats are of limited usefulness.

Oh, crap, I agree with you again. :fluffle: I think as forensic evidence improves we make the stats more useful and, thus, the rise, but the numbers are definitely skewed from reality. I wonder how common in each of our lives it would be if we actually knew.

My wife and I have a hard time with winter, and longer nights, and we're not even that far north.

I'm nearly at the end of the rope come early spring.


We feel it here too-spring is such a relief. Its well documented that sunshine has a direct impact on moods and emotion in some people.

I wonder if someone that may be privately considering it and brought it up to test the waters-to see if friends would be immediately concerned and supportive or nervously dismiss it as being silly.
I guess we all need to be aware of our friends and family. A little interference could save a lot of pain and grief.
And how many suicides are brought on by a chemical imbalance/severe depresssion? How many are brought on from despair because of failure or stress? I'm not an expert by any means, but I think there are several different paths that can lead to suicide. Some people NEED medication and therapy. Some people NEED a friend and support.
Yes. Suicide is not all about one factor. Mental illness is one. For others, it is a particular stress. Again, all talk of suicide should be taken seriously...but what do you do when someone confides in you? Don't dismiss it as silly, but judge your comfort level. Can you deal with this? Are you willing to?

Quick primer on ways to deal with threats of suicide:

1) Take it seriously. I can't stress this enough. Even if someone is laughing when they say it, don't dismiss it.

2) Do a quick inventory. Do you know this person? Are you comfortable pursuing this? If not, you need to mention it to someone who IS. Hopefully they won't dismiss it either.

3) If you are close to this person, and feel you can continue, be prepared to get uncomfortable. Ask them if they are considering committing suicide. EVEN if they just said they were. They might blow it off and say they were kidding. They more likely will give you a yes or no answer.

4) If it's a yes, or you feel as though they haven't really answered you, ask them, "Have you thought about how you would commit suicide?" Why such a morbid question? It isn't really. If someone is planning suicide, that means they've started thinking about how to do it. The more detailed the plan, the more serious they are, and the more likely they are to actually attempt within a short time frame. Ideation means they have just thought about it with no real plans. It is serious too, but it generally means the attempt won't be within 48 hours. Don't just take a yes or no answer. Get the details.

Interlude: you may be thinking, why would someone share their plan with me? Why would they try to ruin their own suicide? An important concept to understand is ambivalence. People who are feeling suicidal are ambivalent. They want to end their pain, and the only way they can see to do that is to die...but they desperately want to live as well. When they lose that ambivalence, when they swing towards death, they are calm, even happy because they have finally made a decision. Attempts at this stage generally occur within 48 hours. Ambivalence is an important tool. Use it. Remind them of life. Remind them of the things that keep them clinging to life.

5) At this point, if you have a plan, you need to find out if they have the means at hand to complete. If their plan is to shoot themselves, ask if they have a gun, bullets. If they plan to take pills...do they have the pills in their purse? Where are they going to get them? Jump of a bridge? Which bridge, when? The point of all this is to assess level of risk. If they don't have the means at hand, and don't know how to get them, the risk is a bit lower in terms of time frame. Immediate action is required if the means are at hand. Again...ambivalence is your friend. If this person is telling you the details, they are offering up to you a way to stop them. That isn't coincidence.

You should be prepared to get outside help if necessary (especially if you are on the phone with, and not right next to this person). It might be necessary to call a mobile mental health unit, which often intervene in suicide attempts, or to call a family member or someone this person trusts. Find out when they plan to attempt and react accordingly.

6) When the person is just at the ideation level (thinking, but not planning), you can go a bit deeper. Ask them if they have ever thought about suicide before. Usually it's yes. If so, ask them what stopped them from committing suicide then. You need to find out their coping strategies. If they talked to a friend...went to counselling, drank a lot of beer (not a great coping strategy, but one nonetheless), you need to know. Ask if they could do those things NOW to help themselves.

....to be continued...

Ok, I'm not going to waste my time suggesting suicide is a great and cool thing to do, but I am going to try to pinpoint what we're talking about here. First off, the previous post mentions older people tending to commit suicide (successfully) more frequently than younger people. We have to break this down a little bit. Some of these people (I don't have a percentage) commit suicide because they are faced with crippling or terminal illness. The question is whether or not this is actually a problem. On the one hand, you have friends and relatives who are left with the aftermath. On the other, you have a person who chose to live his or her life on his or her own terms to the very end. The category of people I think most of us think of when we talk about suicide are the people who are completely dissatisfied with their life, what they'd made of it, and they don't see a way out or a reason to keep going.

Part of the reason (I think) there has been a statistical increase in suicides is because of the increased dehumanization of people. While we have a greater ability to contact people around the world (this forum for example), we actually spend less time connecting with other human beings and more time connecting with ideas, concepts and photons from a cathode ray tube. Is it any wonder there is an increased feeling of isolation when people stop hanging out with friends on the weekends in favor of playing World of Warcraft or some other online game? There are people in the world who get married online, rather than going out and meeting someone. The advent of storybook relationships on television has people convinced that their relationships shouldn't really require work, and this just isn't the case. Since our lives and the lives of our children are now occupied with a greater degree of function, does anyone wonder why people are asking themselves what the reason for it all might be? What about the people who don't seem to have a purpose for greater blocks of time? Sure, a kid who's got school, a part-time job, sports, and assorted youth activities might not have the time for self-reflection that may lead to suicidal thinking, but what about the kid who just goes to school and watches TV? There is a growing number of two-income households in the world. What are the kids supposed to do when they get home and finish their homework? Sure, we all have to do things to survive, but the fact is the human race is becoming less and less social on a physical scale, and if we don't actually go and interact, we may find ourselves wondering what the point of it all really is.

I've never felt suicidal. I have been depressed and full of despair and felt like things could never be good again, but never contemplated suicide. My contemplations ran more towards creating a new identity and running away and starting over. Maybe I'm different. Or, may my despair has been bad for me, but no where near the scale of someone who choses to kill themselves.
I can only imagine how desperate someone must feel when they get to that point. I dont mean standing on a ledge, calling for attention. I mean the ones that do it alone an quiet and never spoke of it. I wonder if they expressed themselves to a trusted friend or relative if they would have been able to save themselves and improve the dire straights they were in. I bet a lot of people could have been saved if there was someone to talk to.

I've never been suicidal either, just at that point which you described. I don't think that it's necessarily that what you felt was "lesser" than what a suicidal person feels, just that your thoughts run in such a way that you're fortunate enough never to percieve suicide as a viable option. I know that a few months ago I was in the worst depression of my life (due to the overwhelming resurgence of my gender dysphoria), and even though I was conjuring up paranoid scenarios and spending most of my time in bed, I was never suicidal. I was just lucky, I suppose.

Taking things seriously is important yes, but there also comes a point where you have to realise you do not have the power of life and death. Take EVERY threat of suicide seriously. But don't tear yourself apart if you missed the signs. We all do. The important thing is educating yourself about what those signs are, and learning how to deal with them if they arise. Sometimes there ARE no signs that you can see, and when it happens, you are left double-guessing yourself. This is why survivors of suicide also need support. It is a horrible, horrible thing to lose someone you love or know to suicide, and it involves a lot of guilt, and anger, and sadness. It is ALSO been proven that people who have lost someone to suicide, are more likely to commit suicide themselves. Not a monkey-see-monkey-do situation. More of a situation where that person never got help in coping with the death, or saw that method of ending their pain as a viable one.

More background is that it was Saturday and I had just survived a fairly harrowing experience in Norway. I was encouraged by my job to stay home and rest, but I was really behind and I was a workaholic. I didn't miss the signs, I ignored them. Because I really wanted to catch up. Because I silently hoped it wasn't as bad as it sounded. Because my priorities were fucked up. I know that if I'd stayed she probably would have just chosen another time to do it, maybe even succeeded. She didn't die and she got the help she needed so wishing it different seems silly.

But I try to remind myself of who I was then so that my priorities never again get so upside down. I try to remember how quickly a situation like that can go from seemingly under control to out of control. And I hope that by talking to people about it that other people can learn to be a better friend/relative/significant other and can be more responsive to the possibly suicidal without being put through so hard a lesson.

My wife and I have a hard time with winter, and longer nights, and we're not even that far north.

I'm nearly at the end of the rope come early spring.
Spring is the peak season for suicide. You'd think it would be during the dreary months of winter, but no. People manage to drag themselves through it, hoping things will get better once spring comes. When things DON'T get better, and people are out of energy, they give into despair. Mondays also tend to be the day of the week suicides happen...for the same reason. You get through the weekend, hoping for a ray of light at the end of the tunnel...and when it doesn't appear...

By the way, sounds like you guys could benefit from a move south...do you suffer from SAD?

I've never been suicidal either, just at that point which you described. I don't think that it's necessarily that what you felt was "lesser" than what a suicidal person feels, just that your thoughts run in such a way that you're fortunate enough never to percieve suicide as a viable option. I know that a few months ago I was in the worst depression of my life (due to the overwhelming resurgence of my gender dysphoria), and even though I was conjuring up paranoid scenarios and spending most of my time in bed, I was never suicidal. I was just lucky, I suppose.


Maybe you're right. I have been as down as I thought possible, but figured it wasnt so bad. I'm well aware that things could always be worse, there is always someone out there much worse off than myself. But maybe it is my minds ability to cope or chemically process things in a better manner than someone who cant.
It sounds like you were lucky.

If and when I have heard someone close to me mention it, I take it seriously. I have no problem if I were to be labelled as over-reacting, than living with knowing I could have been a lifeline to someone who needed it, but couldt just come out and say it.

We have always been convinced that my grandfather (who was suffering from emphysema and leukemia) saved up a bunch of pain killers to help him pass on. In his case, it may have been the best decision.

The only other experience I have is a friend who had recently come out of the closet who was talking about suicide. It was an instant message conversation and he signed off soon afterwards. I was about 300 miles away and couldn't seem to reach him on the phone. I was so freaked out that I called an old teacher, who apparently called the cops. As it turns out, he was just being overly dramatic, not seriously considering it. He ended up getting angry with me because the police showed up at his house and were asking if he had access to guns/drugs/etc and embarrassed the hell out of him. I don't regret doing it though. If he had been serious and I had not called anyone, I never would've gotten over it.

My experience of SAD is that autumn and winter induce deep despair, while spring brings apathy and numbness.

Spring is the peak season for suicide. You'd think it would be during the dreary months of winter, but no. People manage to drag themselves through it, hoping things will get better once spring comes. When things DON'T get better, and people are out of energy, they give into despair. Mondays also tend to be the day of the week suicides happen...for the same reason. You get through the weekend, hoping for a ray of light at the end of the tunnel...and when it doesn't appear...

By the way, sounds like you guys could benefit from a move south...do you suffer from SAD?


My moods fluctuate constantly. I would imagine SAD has an affect on me.

We have always been convinced that my grandfather (who was suffering from emphysema and leukemia) saved up a bunch of pain killers to help him pass on. In his case, it may have been the best decision.

The only other experience I have is a friend who had recently come out of the closet who was talking about suicide. It was an instant message conversation and he signed off soon afterwards. I was about 300 miles away and couldn't seem to reach him on the phone. I was so freaked out that I called an old teacher, who apparently called the cops. As it turns out, he was just being overly dramatic, not seriously considering it. He ended up getting angry with me because the police showed up at his house and were asking if he had access to guns/drugs/etc and embarrassed the hell out of him. I don't regret doing it though. If he had been serious and I had not called anyone, I never would've gotten over it.

I think you did the right thing. In this case, over reacting is better than not reacting at all. Its even possible you did save him and he cant admit it. Either way-hes alive to be angry.

The only other experience I have is a friend who had recently come out of the closet who was talking about suicide. It was an instant message conversation and he signed off soon afterwards. I was about 300 miles away and couldn't seem to reach him on the phone. I was so freaked out that I called an old teacher, who apparently called the cops. As it turns out, he was just being overly dramatic, not seriously considering it. He ended up getting angry with me because the police showed up at his house and were asking if he had access to guns/drugs/etc and embarrassed the hell out of him. I don't regret doing it though. If he had been serious and I had not called anyone, I never would've gotten over it.
Good for you! People are so afraid that of embarrasment that they sometimes fail to act. So this person got mad at you...hey, they might even break off a friendship over it...but it's doubtful. Overly dramatic? Perhaps. Perhaps he was only in the ideation stage, and the intervention snapped him out of it. You taking it seriously, even though it turns out he wasn't in imminent danger is, as you said, better than the alternative.

My moods fluctuate constantly. I would imagine SAD has an affect on me.

it could also be pms.....

it could also be pms.....
It would have to be a male version for him.

it could also be pms.....


Primitive Male Syndrome? Or my wife's cycle rubbing off on me.

Spring is the peak season for suicide. You'd think it would be during the dreary months of winter, but no. People manage to drag themselves through it, hoping things will get better once spring comes. When things DON'T get better, and people are out of energy, they give into despair. Mondays also tend to be the day of the week suicides happen...for the same reason. You get through the weekend, hoping for a ray of light at the end of the tunnel...and when it doesn't appear...

By the way, sounds like you guys could benefit from a move south...do you suffer from SAD?

That's what it is - even on 40mg Prozac per day, March is really hard.

I'm in Virginia now. I keep telling my wife that we have to move to the Cayman Islands.

Primitive Male Syndrome? Or my wife's cycle rubbing off on me.

hmmm... both

That's what it is - even on 40mg Prozac per day, March is really hard.

I'm in Virginia now. I keep telling my wife that we have to move to the Cayman Islands.
My husband is possibly up for a transfer there...so we'll meet up with you this winter? :D

My husband is possibly up for a transfer there...so we'll meet up with you this winter? :D

Can I come? :fluffle:

Oh, and not to make light of the subject because I truly believe it's important subject matter, but I heard the leading cause of depression is discovering you agree with Sinuhue.

The way I see it, and according the the research I read while I was in school, the majority of suicides that take place in general population, not including those diagnosed with a severe mental illness, are related to two major sentiments:

1. Feelings of hopelessness
2. Feelings of meaninglessness

Perhaps in a discussion of this issue it would be wise to examine what factors could logically impact the Zeitgeist of our time, relative to history in such a way as to increase these feelings...

Suicide is alright by me. Sure it's hard to lose a friend or family member but if they are truely unhappy being int he world of living flesh then they have every right to leave it behind and is selfish to expect them to hang around for us when their lives are literal hells.

There have also been many cases where the decedent was masturbating and accidentally strangled themselves-I'm not positive, but I think its called autoerotocism? The intentional cutting off of oxygen till climax in an attempt to highten pleasure? Intending to avoid embarassment, some of these have been labeled suicides.

Auto-erotic asphyxiation.

The way I see it, and according the the research I read while I was in school, the majority of suicides that take place in general population, not including those diagnosed with a severe mental illness, are related to two major sentiments:

1. Feelings of hopelessness
2. Feelings of meaninglessness

Perhaps in a discussion of this issue it would be wise to examine what factors could logically impact the Zeitgeist of our time, relative to history in such a way as to increase these feelings...

What about uselessness?

Suicide is alright by me. Sure it's hard to lose a friend or family member but if they are truely unhappy being int he world of living flesh then they have every right to leave it behind and is selfish to expect them to hang around for us when their lives are literal hells.
Um...wouldn't you want to know WHY their lives are hellish, and wouldn't you want to try to help alleviate that suffering so they could get out of that hell?

Um...wouldn't you want to know WHY their lives are hellish, and wouldn't you want to try to help alleviate that suffering so they could get out of that hell?


sure I would and I would always offer help and insight as best I could. I would encourage them to find help and assist them in doing so. Although, I would never fault them for choosing death and believe that it is their decision to make and respect it.

It's a person's choice, since it's completely personal. Why people try to keep someone alive and miserable is beyond me. I don't understand why people feel that if someone wants to die, they should not be allowed to do so.

What about uselessness?

A subset of meaninglessness.

sure I would and I would always offer help and insight as best I could. I would encourage them to find help and assist them in doing so. Although, I would never fault them for choosing death and believe that it is their decision to make and respect it.
Again, few people choose death simply for the sake of choosing death. It's most often about escape. If they can make that escape, and live...the vast majority will do so. When the ONLY choice of escape is death, that isn't a choice at all.

To the person saying you don't want to intefere in their choice to die...be honest with yourself. You don't want to involve yourself, or don't think you can make a difference. You aren't taking away a freedom when you intervene (in most cases of suicide)...you are trying to restore hope.

BTW, I just found out an old friend recently shot himself in the head back in December. The only thing I saw wrong with it is that he did it at someone elses house when noone was there. So they had to come home to find him and the mess.

That's the part I could never figure out: someone has to find the body. How do you deal with that?

BTW, I just found out an old friend recently shot himself in the head back in December. The only thing I saw wrong with it is that he did it at someone elses house when noone was there. So they had to come home to find him and the mess.
The fact that your old friend was miserable enough to kill himself didn't bother you...just the fact that he left his body for others to find?

That's the part I could never figure out: someone has to find the body. How do you deal with that?
As the person who finds the body...usually not well. People tend to suffer from flashbacks and waking nightmares for a long time after, but that is a normal way for you to process a trauma. The problem is, people often don't seek support or couselling when someone they love or are close to kills themselves, and they are forced to deal with it on their own, or try to repress it. Neither option is very healty.

Again, few people choose death simply for the sake of choosing death. It's most often about escape. If they can make that escape, and live...the vast majority will do so. When the ONLY choice of escape is death, that isn't a choice at all.

To the person saying you don't want to intefere in their choice to die...be honest with yourself. You don't want to involve yourself, or don't think you can make a difference. You aren't taking away a freedom when you intervene (in most cases of suicide)...you are trying to restore hope.

A lot of those people who choose death have already searched and searched for relief to no avail, so death really does become their last choice. I would still call it a choice though: between a hellish life and death.

Again, few people choose death simply for the sake of choosing death. It's most often about escape. If they can make that escape, and live...the vast majority will do so. When the ONLY choice of escape is death, that isn't a choice at all.

To the person saying you don't want to intefere in their choice to die...be honest with yourself. You don't want to involve yourself, or don't think you can make a difference. You aren't taking away a freedom when you intervene (in most cases of suicide)...you are trying to restore hope.

Actually, I've known a number of suicidal people. I have made a difference in the past, and I know it. I'm comfortable with that- I don't think that helping them work through their problems is detracting from their right to suicide. But I don't try to stop them from killing themselves. I may try to convince them they don't have to, and have done so multiple times, but I still don't feel it's wrong for them to want to do so. So what does that make me? I'm interfering, if getting them help is interfering. But when it comes down to the actual point of no return, I let them make their own choices.

A lot of those people who choose death have already searched and searched for relief to no avail, so death really does become their last choice. I would still call it a choice though: between a hellish life and death.
It will continue to be the only chance for many people if we continue to refuse aid and compassion to others, and if we continue to ignore the signs that are appeals for help. Help is out there...be it in the medical or psychological fields, social services, community links...help is there, and we need to make sure that people who need it can access it, and are in the frame of mind to even realise that help and change is possible. Saying it's just a matter of a simple choice is dismissive, simplistic, and a great way to let yourself off the hook.

The fact that your old friend was miserable enough to kill himself didn't bother you...just the fact that he left his body for others to find?

the fact that he was miserable was something he tried to remedy for many years, and that did bother me. I hated to see him suffer, and now I am happy that he no longer has to.

Actually, I've known a number of suicidal people. I have made a difference in the past, and I know it. I'm comfortable with that- I don't think that helping them work through their problems is detracting from their right to suicide. But I don't try to stop them from killing themselves. I may try to convince them they don't have to, and have done so multiple times, but I still don't feel it's wrong for them to want to do so. So what does that make me? I'm interfering, if getting them help is interfering. But when it comes down to the actual point of no return, I let them make their own choices.
Ah. Thanks for clearing that up.

Yes. The ultimate responsibility is no one but the person who chooses to die. We can do as much as we can, but yes, at a certain point, the control lies only in the hands of the other person. Suicide, in my opinion, is not WRONG, the way murder or rape is wrong. It is simply something that in many cases, could be avoided.

the fact that he was miserable was something he tried to remedy for many years, and that did bother me. I hated to see him suffer, and now I am happy that he no longer has to.
Alright. I think I get what you are both trying to say. Not indifference on your part...simply a 'letting go'. You're right. Sometimes there is no way out of it...no amount of drugs or therapy that can make things right.

It will continue to be the only chance for many people if we continue to refuse aid and compassion to others, and if we continue to ignore the signs that are appeals for help. Help is out there...be it in the medical or psychological fields, social services, community links...help is there, and we need to make sure that people who need it can access it, and are in the frame of mind to even realise that help and change is possible. Saying it's just a matter of a simple choice is dismissive, simplistic, and a great way to let yourself off the hook.

It isn't and long hasn't been the only choice for people. There is plenty of help readily available. We have suicide hotlines and counseling galore.

And I never ignored any signs or appeals for help. I just think that if someone doesn't want to be or cant be helped then they shouldn't have to be.

This brings a question up in my mind. Does suicide bother you more because you are an atheist? Honestly, I think the fact that I believe in an afterlife makes me less bothered by suicide.

Alright. I think I get what you are both trying to say. Not indifference on your part...simply a 'letting go'. You're right. Sometimes there is no way out of it...no amount of drugs or therapy that can make things right.

Exactly. I think teh fact that suicide is illegal is fuhked.

Exactly. I think teh fact that suicide is illegal is fuhked.

Suicide is illegal? How does that work?

It isn't and long hasn't been the only choice for people. There is plenty of help readily available. We have suicide hotlines and counseling galore.
Again, part of the problem with people who are depressed or suicidal is that someone could be banging on their door with a solution to their problem, and they just wouldn't be able to see it.

And I never ignored any signs or appeals for help. I just think that if someone doesn't want to be or cant be helped then they shouldn't.
Generally people who don't want help don't tell people about their depression and suicidal ideation. They are calm, content, give possessions away, put their affairs in order, and kill themselves. They are not ambivalent, they choose death. The majority of cases are not so cut and dried.

his brings a question up in my mind. Does suicide bother you more because you are an atheist? Honestly, I think the fact that I believe in an afterlife makes me less bothered by suicide.
The act of suicide does not bother me more than any other form of death. The fact that people resort to suicide bothers me, because it generally means that other options either were not there, or no one was able to reach them. The issue of suicide bothers me because it is considered shameful, and it is hushed up in our society. People do not know how to support those who are left behind, but we can do it if their loved one's die in any other way (naturally or not, by someone else's hand, just not their own). I am bothered by this issue because it is incredibly prevalent among my people. It has its root in much deeper societal problems. It's like the elephant in the kitchen no one will talk about. I want people to talk about it.

Exactly. I think teh fact that suicide is illegal is fuhked.

Agreed.

"Whose body is this if not mine?" - Sue Rodriguez http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-69-1135/life_society/sue_rodriguez/

Suicide is illegal? How does that work?
Euthenasia is only legal in a very few countries. There are still many laws on the books that make violence towards others AND YOURSELF a crime.

As the person who finds the body...usually not well. People tend to suffer from flashbacks and waking nightmares for a long time after, but that is a normal way for you to process a trauma. The problem is, people often don't seek support or couselling when someone they love or are close to kills themselves, and they are forced to deal with it on their own, or try to repress it. Neither option is very healty.


My wife's cousin went to his sister's home when he knew she wouldnt be there. He pried open her husband's gun safe and and shot himself in the head in her bedroom. Its clear that his remains would be found by his sister or one of her young children in an exceptionally horrific state. Maybe this is part of the statement. No one expected this from him- he seemed a typical happy go lucky type. His sister was never able to enter that room again, never slept in the house again,despite the rest of the families refurbishments- the house was sold and they moved. His older brother then proceeded to drink himself to death, over the course of a few years. His doctor told him his liver was failing, he never let up and died in his late 20s. this was suicide too.

I didn't read any of the threads, I just read the title. So, with that read, SUICIDE IS THE PUSSY WAY OUT. It's for all of those bitches who can't cope with life. Assholes.

I didn't read any of the threads, I just read the title. So, with that read, SUICIDE IS THE PUSSY WAY OUT. It's for all of those bitches who can't cope with life. Assholes.
You don't even deserve a warning. Reported to moderation.

Euthenasia is only legal in a very few countries. There are still many laws on the books that make violence towards others AND YOURSELF a crime.


Suicide is ILLEGAL in the entire USA. I dont know what the punishments are, but I hate to think of what it would be like to be suicidal and then put in prison. I hope they are more likely to be under psychiatric care in a hospital, under observation and appropriate care.

Suicide is ILLEGAL in the entire USA. I dont know what the punishments are, but I hate to think of what it would be like to be suicidal and then put in prison. I hope they are more likely to be under psychiatric care in a hospital, under observation and appropriate care.
Actually what it usually means is that anyone who helped with a person's suicide is charged and imprisoned. It also gives authorities the right to 'disable' someone who is attempting suicide. In some areas, that includes being able to lock them up in jail or a mental institution 'for their own protection'. Mostly, these laws really target euthanasia, not suicide.

;) Actually what it usually means is that anyone who helped with a person's suicide is charged and imprisoned. It also gives authorities the right to 'disable' someone who is attempting suicide. In some areas, that includes being able to lock them up in jail or a mental institution 'for their own protection'. Mostly, these laws really target euthanasia, not suicide.


In either instance, there is no easy,clear cut solution.

My grandmamma Juju is mentally ill. She takes medication. She has become dependent on her medication. There have been times when she has attempted suicide. She takes a lot of pills and then she calls everyone she knows. She does it for attention.

My mother says that there was a time in her life when she was suicidal but she did not actually attempt anything because she wanted to consider the people around her.

Conclusion: Even without other factors in my life, I am at high risk for suicide. I shouldn't have children of my own. I'll adopt.

Suicide is ILLEGAL in the entire USA. I dont know what the punishments are, but I hate to think of what it would be like to be suicidal and then put in prison. I hope they are more likely to be under psychiatric care in a hospital, under observation and appropriate care.

One of the states that starts with an O, I think it is Oregon, currently has a law allowing euthenasia.

Conclusion: Even without other factors in my life, I am at high risk for suicide. I shouldn't have children of my own. I'll adopt.
Adoption is an incredibly loving act. Regardless of your reasons for it, I applaud you.

Suicide is ILLEGAL in the entire USA. I dont know what the punishments are, but I hate to think of what it would be like to be suicidal and then put in prison. I hope they are more likely to be under psychiatric care in a hospital, under observation and appropriate care.

I agree with Sinuhue- these laws are meant to discourage euthenasia, not suicide. How could you try a successful suicide, after all? The person's already dead.

I agree with Sinuhue- these laws are meant to discourage euthenasia, not suicide. How could you try a successful suicide, after all? The person's already dead.

You get put into protective custody, if you are believed to be a danger to yourself. The law agains suicide is an excuse to take away your rights if you attempt, otherwise it would violate the consitution. I know the wording makes it sound like I'm against it, but since it saved someone I love very much, it's definitely an issue I'm very torn on.

I agree with Sinuhue- these laws are meant to discourage euthenasia, not suicide. How could you try a successful suicide, after all? The person's already dead.

The quote you are replying to came from someone else.

The quote you are replying to came from someone else.

*goes to check*
*blinks*
*collapses*
Sorry O.o

Actually what it usually means is that anyone who helped with a person's suicide is charged and imprisoned. It also gives authorities the right to 'disable' someone who is attempting suicide. In some areas, that includes being able to lock them up in jail or a mental institution 'for their own protection'. Mostly, these laws really target euthanasia, not suicide.

In fact, as a mental health professional, I have a responsibility to report to the authorities and or petition for Psychiatric hospitalization anyone who, in my clinical opinion is a direct, immidiate risk to themself or others. My license would be revoked and I would be liable to family members for malpractice should I not intervene.

I agree with Sinuhue- these laws are meant to discourage euthenasia, not suicide. How could you try a successful suicide, after all? The person's already dead.

No one will ever be prosecuted for completing their own suicide, but when there is an intent to commit suicide, certain individual rights are revoked. In essence, a person who intends to commit suicide is deemed to be mentally incompetent to decide what is in their own best interest and thereby becomes the responsibility of the family or State appointed guardian.

No one will ever be prosecuted for completing their own suicide, but when there is an intent to commit suicide, certain individual rights are revoked. In essence, a person who intends to commit suicide is deemed to be mentally incompetent to decide what is in their own best interest and thereby becomes the responsibility of the family or State appointed guardian.

Why are they incompetent to decide their own best interests? That's what gets me. I admit, many of these people would benefit more from help than suicide. But the people who make conscious decisions to end their lives should not necessarily be deemed mentally incompenent- it can be a choice, it's not always just depression. And what about doctor-assisted suicides? People who want to die because they're terminal already, but legally must be kept alive and in pain for as long as possible?

Why are they incompetent to decide their own best interests? That's what gets me. I admit, many of these people would benefit more from help than suicide. But the people who make conscious decisions to end their lives should not necessarily be deemed mentally incompenent- it can be a choice, it's not always just depression. And what about doctor-assisted suicides? People who want to die because they're terminal already, but legally must be kept alive and in pain for as long as possible?

That is just the thing... society, at least in the U.S. has defined that decision as being in and of itself the definition of incompetence. It has defined living as the only possible rational choice and therefore, if a person decides not to live, they have become irrational to the point of being incompetent.

I'm not saying that this is a position that an "amoral" society should take, but it is current law.