NationStates Jolt Archive

...Transsexuals?

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do?

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far?

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends?

I dont know about you but that is my biggest fear. "Honey, there is something i need to talk to you about," They should tell past, but other than that i dont care, if they find someone that wants that then go ahead.

Why the fuck not?

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way? Nope

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do? Probably something hormonal in the womb

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far? The should be able to change it if they like. What difference should it make what sex I want on my legal paperwork if we're supposedly equal.

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends? Only if they wish, though I think it's only right to tell a prospective spouse your birth sex.
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...Transsexuals?

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do?

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far?

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends?
Their choice. I wouldn't do it, but that doesn't mean someone else doesn't want to. It's not my place to tell them not to.

Why the fuck not?

exactly. who are we to say what people can do with their bodies and their lives?

I feel sorry for transexuals, they have a difficult life ahead of them. Interestingly enough I read last week that more and more babies are born with inspecific genders.

They can do what they like.

meh.

whatever.

so long as someone isn't harming another, they should (in my opinion) be able to do what the hell ever they want.

no clue as to what causes it, havnt researched it, or even read much for that matter.

personally, i think honesty is a good thing, but only if it's voluntary. dont think there is any reason to mandate it.

I am glad we have reached a point in medical science where we can finally help people who feel trapped in the wrong body.

They should probably tell people they begin relationships with, as it makes some people uncomfortable.

I see no reason to intervene with what people want to do to themselves, however I would have to light myself on fire, jump out a window, and slit my throat on the way down if I found out my girlfriend was previously a guy.

It aint hurting me.


I personally dont care if people want to hang signs around thier necks saying
"I bugger the occassional Moose."

Whatever.

...Transsexuals?

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do?

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far?

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends?
1. They're cool. :fluffle: :eek: :D ;) :)

2. No, it's not wrong.

3. I honestly don't know.

4. Yes they should; it's not too far.

5. If they want to.

I see no reason to intervene with what people want to do to themselves, however I would have to light myself on fire, jump out a window, and slit my throat on the way down if I found out my girlfriend was previously a guy.

Now this is an attitude I have never quite understood. Why? What would be the big deal? It wouldn't bother me (althought, TBH, female to male is rare, and from what I have heard about the methods, you probably wouldn't need to be told).

Blessings
Cyber

Now this is an attitude I have never quite understood. Why? What would be the big deal? It wouldn't bother me (althought, TBH, female to male is rare, and from what I have heard about the methods, you probably wouldn't need to be told).

Blessings
Cyber

Yeah I agree. Transgendered people and transexuals have always intrigued me, because at times, I can fit myself into that category, but anyways, maybe explaining where I'm coming from can clear up some stuff.

Yeah, what is the big deal? Are you that insecure about your masculinity that any physical intimacy with a guy is something you would want to force yourself to commit a gruesome suicide to avoid? I imagine someone like this is the same kind of person who blasts Limp Bizkit in their truck that has tires bigger than themselves, and suffers from what I like to call "small penis syndrome", or "SPS" for short. People with SPS often made fun of me in the locker room for refusing to shower naked with the other guys (the irony behind this was, I was the 'faggot' for keeping my shorts on).

Anyways, I'm bisexual, and somewhat transgendered. In some Innuit tribes, they have over a dozen types of sexes, whereas, we have two, maybe three or four. Gender identity is totally subjective to whoever the person is, and society puts HUGE pressures on us to be one or the other. It's really really hard for transgendereds and transsexuals to really be themselves without fear.

I believe that the body is simply a vessel, and that I can just love or fuck whoever I'd like, because what does it matter? If you really think a person is beautiful, what does their gender matter? I am a personesexual. I think guys in makeup are hot, and although I don't personally wear makeup, my partner (who, interestingly enough, is also transgendered [small world, eh?]) is hellbent on making me wear it someday. In high school, there was this stint where I really wanted to be a woman, but it was very short lived, although I still harbour these feelings, and those sorts of things don't just go away.

What really irritates me is that when I tell my guy friends that I'm bisexual, they immediately think that I want to fuck them. But when a girl is bisexual, it's completely different, all of a sudden it's this "ohh you should make out with your best friend! Oh, then make out with me!!" Christ, those guys suffer from SPS as well.

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?
It's unfair - everyone should be allowed to change their bodies as they see fit, not just transsexuals! :)

Now this is an attitude I have never quite understood. Why? What would be the big deal? It wouldn't bother me (althought, TBH, female to male is rare, and from what I have heard about the methods, you probably wouldn't need to be told).

Blessings
Cyber

It would disturb me GREATLY because for one, I'm totally 100% straight. The idea of myself being involved with a guy is extremely grotesque to me and I would feel HIGHLY violated if I were told after the fact. I do however support the right gay and bisexual people have to be with whoever they wish and marry anyone of their choosing. They are human beings just like everybody else and I have defended them even to the point of fighting(one of my best friends is gay and these guys threatened to beat him up so I stood by him, long story).

So my point is I have no problem with other people being gay, but it's just not in my behavior to be with a guy.

What do you think of Transsexuals? It depends on the person - if they're an asshole, I think they're an asshole. If they're cool, I think they're cool. Someone's sexuality or status has no bearing whatsoever on how I feel about them.

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way? Certainly not.

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do? I have no idea, but not understanding something doesn't make me opposed to it. Far from it.

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far? Not too far at all - I see no rational reasons at all why this should not be the case.

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends? Hmmm....a difficult one. I suppose one's very closest friends, because part of the point of close friends is to share almost everything with them. As far as people that one isn't especially close to, I suppose it depends on the individuals involved.

Sexual Equality']What really irritates me is that when I tell my guy friends that I'm bisexual, they immediately think that I want to fuck them. But when a girl is bisexual, it's completely different, all of a sudden it's this "ohh you should make out with your best friend! Oh, then make out with me!!" Christ, those guys suffer from SPS as well.God, that really pisses me off. The hypocrisy of such people is utterly sickening.

It would disturb me GREATLY because for one, I'm totally 100% straight. The idea of myself being involved with a guy is extremely grotesque to me and I would feel HIGHLY violated if I were told after the fact. I do however support the right gay and bisexual people have to be with whoever they wish and marry anyone of their choosing. They are human beings just like everybody else and I have defended them even to the point of fighting(one of my best friends is gay and these guys threatened to beat him up so I stood by him, long story).

So my point is I have no problem with other people being gay, but it's just not in my behavior to be with a guy.

I do sort of understand where you are coming from. But the trouble is, a person who has gone through a complete sex change is (IMHO) no longer the sex of their birth. So a woman who used to be a man and who finds men attractive is not gay. They are straight. They just had the misfortune to be born into the wrong body.
So on the basis of what you have said, can I assume that (with the best will in the world, and being an open minded and liberal person) somewhere in yourself, you would be unable to accept a person in their 'new' or 'assigned' gender, even if you had never known them that way?

Blessings
Cyber

It would disturb me GREATLY because for one, I'm totally 100% straight. The idea of myself being involved with a guy is extremely grotesque to me and I would feel HIGHLY violated if I were told after the fact.
Except that if you were with a transsexual, she would be a woman, and this wouldn't apply.

Interestingly enough I read last week that more and more babies are born with inspecific genders.

I don't think it is so much increased frequency as it is better reporting. In the past, some doctors would not even tell the parents that the child had unspecific gender.

Why the fuck not?

*gives Kervoskia an agreement cookie*

:D

I'm not a trans-sexual and I dont have any close associates that are. I cant put myself in their shoes.

well, let's see how quickly somebody replies in anger or sarcasm...

I just don't agree with the apparent standard of "it doesn't hurt me, so it's none of my business" that seems to prevail in this thread. I think this type of surgery demeans all of us as a society and should be prohibited.

I think it's totally appropriate for society to have standards that prohibit this type of conduct. I don't think it's too much a stress to argue that this mutiliation should be illegal just like society makes plain-vanilla suicide (not mercy killing) illegal. If folks can have this sex organ surgery because "it's their body", why should folks be able to kill themselves for whatever reason they deem sufficient?

There may very well be folks who are physically deformed and their chromosomes are screwey, making gender-determination difficult. But, for folks who simply feel "trapped" in the wrong body, I think the surgery is wrong.

Who am I to set myself up as the standard setter? Well, as a society we set standards of criminality all the time. This is just another area where we all can differ.

What these TG people need is a brick to the head, or at least years of mental therapy.

well, let's see how quickly somebody replies in anger or sarcasm...

I just don't agree with the apparent standard of "it doesn't hurt me, so it's none of my business" that seems to prevail in this thread. I think this type of surgery demeans all of us as a society and should be prohibited.

I think it's totally appropriate for society to have standards that prohibit this type of conduct. I don't think it's too much a stress to argue that this mutiliation should be illegal just like society makes plain-vanilla suicide (not mercy killing) illegal. If folks can have this sex organ surgery because "it's their body", why should folks be able to kill themselves for whatever reason they deem sufficient?

There may very well be folks who are physically deformed and their chromosomes are screwey, making gender-determination difficult. But, for folks who simply feel "trapped" in the wrong body, I think the surgery is wrong.

Who am I to set myself up as the standard setter? Well, as a society we set standards of criminality all the time. This is just another area where we all can differ.


No anger or sarcasm from me. Just a question:

Why?

You equate gender changing with suicide. That's apples an oranges (which by the way, I would argue for the legality of suicide--did you know some states used to have the death penalty for attempted suicide--however that is a separate issue). Why should gender reassignment be illegal? What do you base this concept on?

I'm bothered by transgenderism, though not for the traditional reasons. It has to do with my problems with society more than people who feel the need to transgender themselves.

Why is it that we've decided as a society that there is a "right" way to "feel" male or female? I've seen some of the studies that suggest that transgendered people may have somewhat different wiring, so that they "map" to the opposite gender of their physical bodies. However, we've not proven to my satisfaction that "male" and "female" gender roles are so clearly defined that we must assume we have to change our physical bodies to fit what we are told is male or female. Are transgendered people feeling a need to physically change, or to be accepted by society and by themselves according to gender definitions?

It's my feeling that if you "feel" a certain way about how to live your life, then perhaps you were meant to live that life, just as you are. There is no need to go through painful and dangerous surgery to live that life -- if you feel you need that, it's your HEAD that needs changing. Society's head ALSO needs changing, as far as I am concerned. We need to accept that there are different ways to be a gender, or perhaps both genders at once. Transgenderization justifies society's assumptions about gender. It says to the world that if you "feel" different from your gender, something is so wrong with you that you need to change it.

Perhaps that's not the case. Unless you feel a genetic desire to castrate yourself or lengthen your clitoris so it looks like a male member...maybe being transgendered in mind is a normal state of being, and you are not "trapped" by your body, but by society's assumption about what parts match with what thoughts. It's not true of other natural states of being -- race or sexual preference -- so why do transsexuals think they are the exception to this rule, and why do we as a culture so readily accept that? It's as though we've found an easy "solution" to a particular anomaly that causes us to question. I think it's too easy a solution, and that "fixing what nature intended in the first place" sounds like a pat phrase. It's egoistic and insulting.

Maybe nature intended transgendered people to be exactly that. You're not "fixing" anything at all.

Ge-Ren

I'm just a sweet transvestite

To each their own.

No anger or sarcasm from me. Just a question:

Why?

You equate gender changing with suicide. That's apples an oranges (which by the way, I would argue for the legality of suicide--did you know some states used to have the death penalty for attempted suicide--however that is a separate issue). Why should gender reassignment be illegal? What do you base this concept on?

I don't buy it as "gender assignment"..it's a surgical procedure to remove sexual organs and artificially replace tehm with the opposite sexual organs. It's a self-induced violent attack against the sanctity of the human body, with suicide being the most extreme.

If two people agree to kill each other, would we allow that because it was a mutual agreement? Just because something deals with a person's body and that person consents to it doesn't mean that society must turn a blind eye and call it ok.

I don't buy it as "gender assignment"..it's a surgical procedure to remove sexual organs and artificially replace tehm with the opposite sexual organs. It's a self-induced violent attack against the sanctity of the human body, with suicide being the most extreme.

If two people agree to kill each other, would we allow that because it was a mutual agreement? Just because something deals with a person's body and that person consents to it doesn't mean that society must turn a blind eye and call it ok.


But its not killing. You can't call it killing or compare it to killing because its not. You have got to establish A. What the sanctity of the human body is and B. How gender reassignment surgery changes that.

Right now all you are doing is saying that all of society should abide by your prejudices because you "don't buy it" being otherwise. Give us a reason, give us some logic. Don't just pop in and say "this is how it should be" without explaining why.

so, I have prejudices because I hold a "traditional" opinion and you disagree with me? Wow.

The status quo is against this surgery. I think it's up to you folks to "prove up" why it should be legal. So far, the only reason basically given is because "it's their body" -- that's not persuasive to me.

Can you disagree with me without using inflammatory language?

so, I have prejudices because I hold a "traditional" opinion and you disagree with me? Wow.

The status quo is against this surgery. I think it's up to you folks to "prove up" why it should be legal. So far, the only reason basically given is because "it's their body" -- that's not persuasive to me.

Can you disagree with me without using inflammatory language?


I'm sorry. I didn't realize that the truth was inflammatory to you.

That status quo is not an arguement to do anything. If we went with the status quo, blacks would be property, women could not hold jobs, and we would all be ruled by kings. Heck, we'd be naked and gathering food from the ground to live on in packs.

You are the one who made a claim here--I've asked you to defend that claim. Appealing to tradition isn't going to cut it. Either answer my questions to you or admit that you can't and give up. Either one is fine with me.

and, by the way, clearly what not "buying it" was referring to was the use of language ("gender assignment") to make it seem all so normal. I called it exactly what it is -- a surgical procedure.

And, I gave a clear reason -- it is a self-induced violent act. I didn't equate it to suicide. Rather, I gave the example of suicide to show that I believe this surgery simply to be toward the extreme end of the self-induced violence continuum.

I thnk that out lives have sanctity, and I believe that this surgery violates that sanctity -- I've clearly expressed the basis for my opinion.

I agree with it now after having some transexual friends. I never understood it until talking with them. However, they feel as though they are literally women inside men's bodies. Why should society look down on them for that? Why should we force them to live their lives in discomfort? If there is a way for them to be happy, why not?

I'm not saying that it should be the easiest surgery to get. I think that a person should have to meet with a doctor quite a few times before getting it done so that they can be evaluated and checked to make sure that its something that would be beneficial to them mentally, socially, and physically.

Other readers clearly can see how you're twisting the conversation. I never indicated that the truth was inflammatory. What I indicated was that your declaration that I was trying to force my prejudices on the world was inflammatory.

I'm happy to discuss my opinions and rationale with you..you don't have to attack or distort.

and, by the way, clearly what not "buying it" was referring to was the use of language ("gender assignment") to make it seem all so normal. I called it exactly what it is -- a surgical procedure.

And, I gave a clear reason -- it is a self-induced violent act. I didn't equate it to suicide. Rather, I gave the example of suicide to show that I believe this surgery simply to be toward the extreme end of the self-induced violence continuum.

I thnk that out lives have sanctity, and I believe that this surgery violates that sanctity -- I've clearly expressed the basis for my opinion.

You haven't defined that sanctity. What is it, where does it come from? Where do you draw the line on "self-induced violence"? Can you get a nose job? What about a boob job for women? What about piercings? Heck, let's stop reconstructive surgery for people who have been in accidents and had their faces caved in and might have to have bones rebroken to fix it. That's a lot more violent than a gender assignment.

My guess here is that you won't have as much of a problem with the above things--but because someone might want to be a "traitor to their gender" and that is a concept totally foreign to you, you rebel against it and call in unnatural--even though it really has nothing to do with you in the first place.

Other readers clearly can see how you're twisting the conversation. I never indicated that the truth was inflammatory. What I indicated was that your declaration that I was trying to force my prejudices on the world was inflammatory.

I'm happy to discuss my opinions and rationale with you..you don't have to attack or distort.


Really? What other readers? No one has commented on it. You said I was being inflammatory--all I was doing was speaking the truth. You are trying to force your prejudices of how the world should be and how people should act off onto other people. I'm not attacking or distoring--I'm calling it like I see it. If you think I'm calling in wrong, then perhaps you might want to work on presentation.

Why are you communicating so angrily? If we were talking face-to-face, would you be acting this way?

I already addressed the issue of deformities, etc.

If one believes that human life simply evolved and that we are not created in the image of God, then it make perfect sense that one easily could support the surgery.

On the other hand, if one believes that are bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, then believing that the surgery should be prohibited makes perfect sense.

I haven't criticized you personally for your opinion or the basis for your opinion. I just disagree with you.

Why are you communicating so angrily? If we were talking face-to-face, would you be acting this way?

I already addressed the issue of deformities, etc.

If one believes that human life simply evolved and that we are not created in the image of God, then it make perfect sense that one easily could support the surgery.

On the other hand, if one believes that are bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit, then believing that the surgery should be prohibited makes perfect sense.

I haven't criticized you personally for your opinion or the basis for your opinion. I just disagree with you.

I haven't spoken in anger. Using the words bias or prejudice doesn't imply anger. It just implies judgement about individuals based on a larger category that may or may not ultimately apply to them. We all use biases. Some of us just don't try to force the whole world to act on them.

You brought religion into this--and that's fine. But it again raises the question of why, in a country with freedom of religion, one religion should set all of societies views. My understanding of what you have said is that sex changes shouldnt' be allowed legally. However, religion is not the basis of our laws. Can you clarify?

I'm not talking about "religion". I'm talking about a relationship with God the Creator. I am a Christian. I believe that this surgery violates the temple of the Holy Spirit.

If we simply are blobs of cellular gelatin with some electrical sparks flying around, what difference does any of this make?

Look, it's very late (early), and I have to get up in 5 hours to put in a day's work.

I'm not talking about "religion". I'm talking about a relationship with God the Creator. I am a Christian. I believe that this surgery violates the temple of the Holy Spirit.

If we simply are blobs of cellular gelatin with some electrical sparks flying around, what difference does any of this make?

Look, it's very late (early), and I have to get up in 5 hours to put in a day's work.


Dodging the question. Whether you like it or not Christianity is a "religion". You are saying that the beliefs of Christianity (a religion) should be used to control what is legal in society. You did not deny that.

And FYI, you can be an atheist and still derive a lot of meaning and beauty from life.

However, have a good night. . . . this debate really wasn't goign anywhere anyways. It's probably best we just agree to disagree and move on.

I'm not talking about "religion". I'm talking about a relationship with God the Creator. I am a Christian. I believe that this surgery violates the temple of the Holy Spirit.

If we simply are blobs of cellular gelatin with some electrical sparks flying around, what difference does any of this make?

Look, it's very late (early), and I have to get up in 5 hours to put in a day's work.

You've yet to explain what your beliefs have to do with others choices to get this sort of surgery. We understand that you do not believe it's right; now you must explain why it should matter to anyone else that you do not believe it is right.

and, to answer your question about religion and law..

Whether based on "religion", morals, or social mores, our laws come from some agreement on acceptable standards. You disagree with the basis for my standard of acceptable behavior..that's ok.

Surely, there are some universally held customs/standards/rules across the ages that you or I might disagree with. I think this surgery is a new fad that is repugnant to my core beliefs and to allow it is bad public policy for our society....

I'm not talking about "religion". I'm talking about a relationship with God the Creator.
LOL

Thats probably the best quote I have seen tonight. So religion isn't a relationship with God the Creator?

The point is, what makes this reconstructive surgery anymore of an assault on your so called sanctity than any other surgery? Should orthodontics be considered an assualt on your God-given teeth? Should we protect the sanctity of the mouth?

and, to answer your question about religion and law..

Whether based on "religion", morals, or social mores, our laws come from some agreement on acceptable standards. You disagree with the basis for my standard of acceptable behavior..that's ok.

Surely, there are some universally held customs/standards/rules across the ages that you or I might disagree with. I think this surgery is a new fad that is repugnant to my core beliefs and to allow it is bad public policy for our society....


Why is it bad public policy for our society? Becuase it is contra to your person beliefs is not a reason. You have to provide a reason why it is bad for our society.

and, to answer your question about religion and law..

Whether based on "religion", morals, or social mores, our laws come from some agreement on acceptable standards. You disagree with the basis for my standard of acceptable behavior..that's ok.

Surely, there are some universally held customs/standards/rules across the ages that you or I might disagree with. I think this surgery is a new fad that is repugnant to my core beliefs and to allow it is bad public policy for our society....
So your idea of bad public policy is allowing people the freedom to live their lives the way they see fit? Is good public policy having people dictated what they can and can not do with thier lives based on your arbitrary moral standpoint?

I have no problems with any of it except I feel that they should tell people who they are getting physically involved with. I personally wouldn't want to be with someone who purposely hid something from their past that significant from me, no matter what it is, however there is certainly more to it than that when it comes to being transexual.

For whatever reason, weather it's genetic or from society, I am straight. I prefer women, that's who I am attracted to. When I think of a woman who was born a man, there is a certain stigma associated to it that they still represent a form of masculinity. Is it fair? I don't know but it's not something I can change. However, I certainly think this is an affect of society and over time, as these surgeries become more advanced and simpler to undergo, they may become more common and will certainly become more accepted.

My point is however, they should be honest about it to their partners. From a practical perspective too, if their relationship's foundation contains lies, it is never a positive thing. Also, do they really want to be with someone who is intolerant to them? Why would a transexual want to be with me, for example, after knowing how I would be uncomfortable in a physical relatioship with them? For their own sake, rather than being in fear of your partner's rejection in a relationship, wouldn't a policy of honesty be wiser [this is really a comment on all relatioships though]. I do, ofcourse, realise that it isn't this simple and that relationship option for transexual may be quite limited due to the way it is regarded.

I think I could talk all night about this with you, and you'd still be telling me that I "must" explain something.

You folks say it's none of my business because it's not my body -- that basically is the source for your opinion that the surgery should be ok. I could spend all night pushing you to explain why you say that, and when you did, I could tell you to explain further.

I've clearly expressed my opinion and the basis for it. I have no reasonable expectation that you'll be convinced in this forum.


I'll think about what you've said.

Good night.

I think I could talk all night about this with you, and you'd still be telling me that I "must" explain something.

You folks say it's none of my business because it's not my body -- that basically is the source for your opinion that the surgery should be ok. I could spend all night pushing you to explain why you say that, and when you did, I could tell you to explain further.

I've clearly expressed my opinion and the basis for it. I have no reasonable expectation that you'll be convinced in this forum.


I'll think about what you've said.

Good night.

You haven't explained anything we've asked. You've either dodged the question or appealed to your religion that isn't a religion. If you dont' want to be questioned or challenged, you don't need to come to these forums. Further, if you dont' want to defend your beliefs--don't make a statement about them.

I think I could talk all night about this with you, and you'd still be telling me that I "must" explain something.

You folks say it's none of my business because it's not my body -- that basically is the source for your opinion that the surgery should be ok. I could spend all night pushing you to explain why you say that, and when you did, I could tell you to explain further.

I've clearly expressed my opinion and the basis for it. I have no reasonable expectation that you'll be convinced in this forum.


I'll think about what you've said.

Good night.
You haven't explained anything. You've stated your beliefs, but have not provided any clarfication of certain meanings. What is this sanctity? Why should we believe in it?

I personally believe that I should be able to do what I want with my body, as it is mine. The government does not own it and as such should not be making laws governing what I can add or remove from it. Now thats not saying I want to be a woman, cause I don't, but what if I want a tatoo? Does that violate your sanctity?

Reread my posts...I explained and explained.

Why is there such patent animosity being expressed?

I haven't dodged anything...you simply disagree with me strongly.

Surely, you're not suggesting that people shouldn't express their opinions in this forum unless you agree with them?

I think I could talk all night about this with you, and you'd still be telling me that I "must" explain something.

You folks say it's none of my business because it's not my body -- that basically is the source for your opinion that the surgery should be ok. I could spend all night pushing you to explain why you say that, and when you did, I could tell you to explain further.

I've clearly expressed my opinion and the basis for it. I have no reasonable expectation that you'll be convinced in this forum.


I'll think about what you've said.

Good night.

I am not going to dispute your right to an opinion on the matter. However, as far as it being illegal, laws [U.S. ones at least] are supposed to be based upon rights. Providing people with rights and preventing people's rights from being infringed upon. Upon what basis, in regards to people's rights, could a law about transexuals be made?

Reread my posts...I explained and explained.

Why is there such patent animosity being expressed?

I haven't dodged anything...you simply disagree with me strongly.

Surely, you're not suggesting that people shouldn't express their opinions in this forum unless you agree with them?
We're saying that if you express an opinion be prepared to have it contested, and to back up what you say. Simple stating that sanctity comes from the holy spirit doesn't mean anything. Its just a religious belief, not an explanation.

Reread my posts...I explained and explained.

Why is there such patent animosity being expressed?

I haven't dodged anything...you simply disagree with me strongly.

Surely, you're not suggesting that people shouldn't express their opinions in this forum unless you agree with them?

Why do you seem to think that if people call you on things and request that you explain things (that you seem unable or unwilling to explain) that they are showing animosity towards you? Asking people to provide support for why they think their beliefs should be forced upon everyone isn't being rude. It's being a debater.

Underemployed Pirate

Not sure how to address this properly. I believe a may have missed the post where you explained your view of reconstructive surgery in the case of an accident, cosmetic surgery such as a nosejob and non-surgical procedures such as body piercing, tattooing and even teeth straightening. Could you re-iterate your view or point me to the appropriate post.

The second issue that folks are dealing with is partly philisophical. People using their religious understanding of right and wrong have been the basis of some faily onerous laws. Look at current day Saudi Arabia and the clothes women have to wear. Those laws are based in a certain relationship to god in that country and how they think god wanted women to be treated.

To give a slightly less inflamitory example, if I said that in my opinion tree's were made in the image of god, would it make sense for me to forbid you chopping down a tree on your property? I think you would tell me it was your land and none of my business, but to me the life of that tree would be sacred and worth invading you property to protect.

Anyway, this is my first post around here so bear with me...=)

Underemployed Pirate

Not sure how to address this properly. I believe a may have missed the post where you explained your view of reconstructive surgery in the case of an accident, cosmetic surgery such as a nosejob and non-surgical procedures such as body piercing, tattooing and even teeth straightening. Could you re-iterate your view or point me to the appropriate post.

The second issue that folks are dealing with is partly philisophical. People using their religious understanding of right and wrong have been the basis of some faily onerous laws. Look at current day Saudi Arabia and the clothes women have to wear. Those laws are based in a certain relationship to god in that country and how they think god wanted women to be treated.

To give a slightly less inflamitory example, if I said that in my opinion tree's were made in the image of god, would it make sense for me to forbid you chopping down a tree on your property? I think you would tell me it was your land and none of my business, but to me the life of that tree would be sacred and worth invading you property to protect.

Anyway, this is my first post around here so bear with me...=)

That's an exceptional first post, sir/madam. Makes me think that there may be hope for newbies yet. Good job. I especially like the tree analogy.

Reread my posts...I explained and explained.

Why is there such patent animosity being expressed?

I haven't dodged anything...you simply disagree with me strongly.

Surely, you're not suggesting that people shouldn't express their opinions in this forum unless you agree with them?

I think you're doing a good job of playing the victim here, I don't think anybody has been condescending, angry, irritated, or outright offensive towards you, and I've read all of these posts. I think you're the one who's done a poor job of explaining yourself, and this isn't a matter of whether or not I agree with you, I just think your arguments need to have a little less emphasis on religion (and yes, your arguments do stem from religion)

I think that "it's my body" is actually a pretty good argument. Yeah it's my body, my car, my computer desk, my CD collection, why don't I care about my car, leave crap lying around on my computer desk, and stay away from rap CD's? Because they're mine. Just like my body is mine. Which means that you, George Bush, the Pope, or anybody else has absolutely no right to tell me what I can and cannot do with it. The arguments you're using are the same arguments that they used to keep slavery going, keep women in the kitchen, and ban interracial marriage. It's unnatural, it's cruel, and it's demeaning. The lord of lords wouldn't dare want a white woman to date a black man, just like the lord of lords says "if you were born with a penis, you will be condemned to your penis for all eternity." - (Lev. 12:5) [I made that up, sorry.]

Oh and, this may be my godless communist side speaking, but really, if someone feels that their life is so horrendously bad that they want to end it, then that's their decision, and I respect their democratic right to do whatever they want to with their bodies. It's not a matter of sanctity of body and mind, it's a matter of freedom. Why? Because, not everybody believes that the human body is sacred, but I think we can both agree that everybody agrees that freedom is sacred. Don't like sex change operations? Don't get one. And while you're at it (or not at it), don't push your world beliefs on me, and I won't push my world beliefs on you.

And if you think I'm attacking you, I apologize, and please don't use that line as a basis to skirt our points, and dodge questions.

Thank you.

"What business is it of yours what I do, see, read, or take into my body so long as I don't harm another human being on this planet? And for those of you having a little moral dillema answering this question, I'll answer it for you. NONE of your fucking business." - Bill Hicks

Thank goodness y'all came on--I was really starting to believe that I was being an ass with unrealistic expectations of people to defend their viewpoints.

LOL

Thats probably the best quote I have seen tonight. So religion isn't a relationship with God the Creator?

The point is, what makes this reconstructive surgery anymore of an assault on your so called sanctity than any other surgery? Should orthodontics be considered an assualt on your God-given teeth? Should we protect the sanctity of the mouth?

Religion may or may not include a God. So no, religion is not necessarily a relationship with "God the Creator." That being said...

It is very different to alter your body as a transgendered person would do versus getting your teeth fixed. I am personally against any elective reconstructive surgey -- I wouldn't get a boob or a nose job unless I was disfigured by injury or disease. I've never been to an orthodontist because my teeth, while not perfectly straight, are not disfigured. I don't buy into what society says I must be. Transgenderism is buying into society, no matter how painful it is to be who and what you are. What's worse, many transgendered people later regret their decision to alter themselves for whatever reason. What then?

Choosing to radically alter your body is a very big deal. It shouldn't be done lightly. I still deeply question transgenderism, largely because I think this alteration is a false answer to deep questions of identity.

Ge-Ren

What really irritates me is that when I tell my guy friends that I'm bisexual, they immediately think that I want to fuck them. But when a girl is bisexual, it's completely different, all of a sudden it's this "ohh you should make out with your best friend! Oh, then make out with me!!" Christ, those guys suffer from SPS as well.

Ah yes, that old "he *must* want me in the sack" thing. Talk about conceited!

The look on someone's face when they are told that, actually, they aren't that attractive to the guy across the table - well, as MasterCard say, priceless.

When I think of a woman who was born a man, there is a certain stigma associated to it that they still represent a form of masculinity. Is it fair? I don't know but it's not something I can change. However, I certainly think this is an affect of society and over time, as these surgeries become more advanced and simpler to undergo, they may become more common and will certainly become more accepted.

I agree with you. Being transgendered to some extent means one has to lie. No matter how they feel inside, they were at some point biologically the other gender, and they have to be honest about that as it is as much a part of their past as any other issue. Transgendered people are different, they can never be the gender they switch to. Most of them lived their lives as the other gender FIRST, which means they don't relate to the gender they assigned themselves the same way.

I personally know a few people who are transgendered. They don't strike me as their assigned sex much, especially men who turn into women. They want all the privileges of being male, and HAD them, then are surprised when they can't relate to other women! They're not women, of course they can't! They're transgendered. They didn't grow up as little girls, they didn't have the same experiences, and most importantly, they didn't suffer what little girls suffer through as they reach adulthood. They get the sex change and expect to be able to join the "girls' club," but they can't because they can't relate. They end up just about as isolated as before their sex change, and are not accepted by society as women. That's for good reason too: THEY'RE NOT.

I've only personally met one woman who transgendered to male, and s/he was WEIRD. Really weird. I can't comment on him/her because I didn't want to get to know this person all that well, it creeped me out so much. Had nothing to do with being transgendered so far as I can tell, but this person used its transgendered nature in really weird ways that made me uncomfortable. I trust that is not common for transgendered individuals.

Ge-Ren

It would disturb me GREATLY because for one, I'm totally 100% straight. The idea of myself being involved with a guy is extremely grotesque to me and I would feel HIGHLY violated if I were told after the fact. I do however support the right gay and bisexual people have to be with whoever they wish and marry anyone of their choosing. They are human beings just like everybody else and I have defended them even to the point of fighting(one of my best friends is gay and these guys threatened to beat him up so I stood by him, long story).

So my point is I have no problem with other people being gay, but it's just not in my behavior to be with a guy.

Eh, transgendered people aren't gay. Well, some of them are - some are bisexual, some are 'asexual'. Just like everyone else.

A male->female transsexual is a woman. Simple. You fall in love and or lust with that person and you are most definitely falling for a woman [or a man in the case of a female->male transsexual].

Religion may or may not include a God. So no, religion is not necessarily a relationship with "God the Creator." That being said...

It is very different to alter your body as a transgendered person would do versus getting your teeth fixed. I am personally against any elective reconstructive surgey -- I wouldn't get a boob or a nose job unless I was disfigured by injury or disease. I've never been to an orthodontist because my teeth, while not perfectly straight, are not disfigured. I don't buy into what society says I must be. Transgenderism is buying into society, no matter how painful it is to be who and what you are. What's worse, many transgendered people later regret their decision to alter themselves for whatever reason. What then?

Choosing to radically alter your body is a very big deal. It shouldn't be done lightly. I still deeply question transgenderism, largely because I think this alteration is a false answer to deep questions of identity.

Ge-Ren

I get where your coming from. Though from a practical perspective, while what we think is attractive, for example, is derived from society; we live in said society. So; while society may make women think that men find bigger boobs attractive, society may tell men that bigger boobs are attractive and they therefore believe it - the fact is, when a woman gets bigger boobs, men find her more attractive [this isn't a hard and fast rule but just en example of what I am saying]. So while logically you shouldn't have to change your body in accordance with society to benefit and be happy, practically you do. I guess the question is, what is more important - your ideals about how you should live or how you actually live?

I don't buy it as "gender assignment"..it's a surgical procedure to remove sexual organs and artificially replace tehm with the opposite sexual organs. It's a self-induced violent attack against the sanctity of the human body, with suicide being the most extreme.

If two people agree to kill each other, would we allow that because it was a mutual agreement? Just because something deals with a person's body and that person consents to it doesn't mean that society must turn a blind eye and call it ok.

It is a surgical and medical procedure to change the outward appearance of a person. Just like orthodontics or acne scar removal - the outside doesn't match what the person inside feels, and we have the power to change their appearance.

Why should a person who feels like a woman, thinks like a woman, and identifies themselves as a woman, not have the option to change her physical appearance to that of a female?

Remember - only transgendered people have this treatment. It doesn't affect you [unless you happen to be transgendered, obviously]. How can it possibly "demean" society by allowing people to be who they are on the *inside*?

Eh, transgendered people aren't gay. Well, some of them are - some are bisexual, some are 'asexual'. Just like everyone else.

A male->female transsexual is a woman. Simple. You fall in love and or lust with that person and you are most definitely falling for a woman [or a man in the case of a female->male transsexual].

It's not that simple. If I see a hot woman, I'll find her attractive. If I later find out she is a smoker, I'll be turned off. Will she be any less aesthetically pleasing from a technical point of view? No. Will I find her as attractive as I did before? No.

Love [or lust] at first site doesn't always last once you learn more about the person. Just like being a smoker or a certain relgion is an important piece of who a person is and could affect your attraction towards them, so is if there are transgender or not.

I'm not talking about "religion". I'm talking about a relationship with God the Creator. I am a Christian. I believe that this surgery violates the temple of the Holy Spirit.

If we simply are blobs of cellular gelatin with some electrical sparks flying around, what difference does any of this make?

Look, it's very late (early), and I have to get up in 5 hours to put in a day's work.


Then don't have the surgery. Simple.

Do *not* sit there and say that society should adopt your religious prejudices. By all means say that *you* don't agree - don't sit there saying "it is wrong".

*Especially* when the only basis you have for that assertion is religious.

exactly. who are we to say what people can do with their bodies and their lives?
That's not the question that was asked.

Reread my posts...I explained and explained.

Why is there such patent animosity being expressed?

I haven't dodged anything...you simply disagree with me strongly.

Surely, you're not suggesting that people shouldn't express their opinions in this forum unless you agree with them?

"Just because" is not an explanation.

All you have done is assert that because your religious beliefs say something is wrong, it *must* be wrong *absolutely*. That's simply nonsensical. You are claiming that *your* religious prejudices should be legislated onto others.

I'm not transgendered - but I am very grateful that the society in which I live would allow me to undergo reassignment if I were.

It's not that simple. If I see a hot woman, I'll find her attractive. If I later find out she is a smoker, I'll be turned off. Will she be any less aesthetically pleasing from a technical point of view? No. Will I find her as attractive as I did before? No.

Love [or lust] at first site doesn't always last once you learn more about the person. Just like being a smoker or a certain relgion is an important piece of who a person is and could affect your attraction towards them, so is if there are transgender or not.

Absolutely - I totally agree with the smoker thing. However, fancying a smoker doesn't make you a smoker. Fancying a m-f transsexual doesn't make you gay.

There have been some very interesting points raised here, and I am going to try to address a few of them.

First off, I think that *everybody* can agree (with the possible exception of those who think it should be illegal) that gender reassignment surgery (please note, the use of the term 'gender reassignment' should be *not* be taken to mean that I deny it is an invasive surgical procedure) should *never* be undertaken lightly. In the vast majority of cases, people have to be living in their 'chosen' (I use the term with some trepidation as I do not believe that a person who feels they are the wrong sex is 'choosing' the sex they wish to be like you would pick out a new dress. It is something much more findamental than that) sex for at least two years. They have to undergo extensive therapy to make sure that this is what is right for them, that their feelings of being in the wrong body are actually directly connected to their physical and emotional gender, and not some underlying problem (for example, there are people who have been diagnosed with body dysmorphic disorder, or people with munchausen syndrome).
It is physically and emotionally traumatic and difficult. On top of trying to persuade the medical profession that this is what is right for them, they often face *massive* opposition from family members and from 'friends' who find it difficult to accept. Being a transgendered person is not an easy choice to make. Is it any wonder that it is only more recently that this is becoming a viable option-in the past, most would just live with what they had and be unhappy. Because of all of these factors, combined with the fact that it is (let's face it) not exactly reversible, it is absolutely right that it should be a decision taken with great care and thought.
aving said that, I don't know *anybody* who has gone through all of this on a whim. There may be those who have regretted it, and I have the greatest sympathy for them. But that doesn't mean that there are not those for whom this is absolutely the right choice.

In terms of gender reassignment to fit in with 'accepted' gender roles, I understand that this may be an issue in some cases. To be honest, I don't know enough transgendered people to accurately provide a real kind of 'overview'. In order to address that as a concern, we would really need to look at the societal roles that those who have successfully undergone gender reassignment choose to fill.
In terms of bucking those 'accepted' societal gender roles, I do know a transgendered person who is in the process of undergoing gender reassignment from female to male. If you met him, you would never believe he had ever been anything but male. He is a guy. He is also gay, in that he is attracted to men. So I don't think we would be able to use his case to argue that transgendered persons are bowing to societal expectations associated with their gender.

I do feel really strongly about this subject. I know too many people of either 'alternative' sexualities (I object to the term, but you know what I mean) or who are transgendered or transvestite who have been physically and verbally attacked in the street for trying to live their lives in peace.
If you want to believe that this is 'wrong', for whatever reason, then you are more than entitled to your opinion. But I object to the idea that your opinion or belief system should hurt another person. And, trust me, legislating against these people (and they are, when it comes done to it, just people, whatever their gender) would hurt them more than you can imagine.

Blessings
Lucrece

I think we've well and truly town Underemployed Pirates to shreads :)

Absolutely - I totally agree with the smoker thing. However, fancying a smoker doesn't make you a smoker. Fancying a m-f transsexual doesn't make you gay.

I agree. Even if it did make you gay, you have the right to make that choice. It's only homophobes who use the gay arguement anyway.

I agree. Even if it did make you gay, you have the right to make that choice. It's only homophobes who use the gay arguement anyway.

Yep, and those people in the "every gay/bi man fancies me" category.

I think *they* are the weirdos :-)

Yep, and those people in the "every gay/bi man fancies me" category.

I think *they* are the weirdos :-)

But every gay/bi man does fancy me. So does every woman on the face of the Earth though. Lesbians love me. Dogs [animals, not ugly chicks] in the street sometimes look at me with a 'come hither' glance too. I'm not homophobic, I'm just smokin' hot!

well, as a pre-treatment transsexual, I'd love to clarify a few details for you. Unfortunately I really can't. It's incredibly difficult to explain without coming across as repeating the same old cliches that most people already know of. But hey, I'll take one point and refute it as best I can.

I personally know a few people who are transgendered. They don't strike me as their assigned sex much, especially men who turn into women. They want all the privileges of being male, and HAD them, then are surprised when they can't relate to other women! They're not women, of course they can't!

Of course. As everyone knows that people think from their internal organs and genitals. The brain is just a device for cooling down blood, eh? Or not. As an m-t-f, I can strongly say that I am female, I have just been denied the opportunity to develop from birth as one, due to a birth defect that evidently resulted in me being born with the wrong set of genitals. So I was brought up as a male. That doesn't make me one. And now that I am old enough to take the decision to have this defect corrected, I am choosing to take it, does not mean that I am lieing to myself in any way, it means that I am finally being truthful with myself. That I'm giving the finger to what society has expect and nurtured me to conform to so that I can fully develop as who I am. It's nothing more than a corrective procedure.

As for Unemployed Pirates, I'm hoping that he'll come on later so that I can talk to him. I was quite disappointed to have missed him, to be honest.

oh, and Bogstonia, perhaps I could attempt to clear up one tiny detail?

My point is however, they should be honest about it to their partners. From a practical perspective too, if their relationship's foundation contains lies, it is never a positive thing. Also, do they really want to be with someone who is intolerant to them? Why would a transexual want to be with me, for example, after knowing how I would be uncomfortable in a physical relatioship with them? For their own sake, rather than being in fear of your partner's rejection in a relationship, wouldn't a policy of honesty be wiser [this is really a comment on all relatioships though]. I do, ofcourse, realise that it isn't this simple and that relationship option for transexual may be quite limited due to the way it is regarded.

I do intend to be honest in any relationship I engage with for precisely that reason. I don't want to be with someone who is uncomfortable with me. That's a really bad place to build a relationship. But try and see it from the opposing perspective. A transsexual may have been deprived of a whole lot of emotional support before, or during transition. They may want to drop that aspect of their life totally, and try to move on. I won't say that's the right or wrong thing to do. But put simply, they might not feel that they can risk opening that aspect of their life back up. Rejection again might just be more than they feel able to handle. Logic and rationality can take a back seat when someone is emotionally fragile, bordering on shattered.

well, as a pre-treatment transsexual, I'd love to clarify a few details for you. Unfortunately I really can't. It's incredibly difficult to explain without coming across as repeating the same old cliches that most people already know of. But hey, I'll take one point and refute it as best I can.



Of course. As everyone knows that people think from their internal organs and genitals. The brain is just a device for cooling down blood, eh? Or not. As an m-t-f, I can strongly say that I am female, I have just been denied the opportunity to develop from birth as one, due to a birth defect that evidently resulted in me being born with the wrong set of genitals. So I was brought up as a male. That doesn't make me one. And now that I am old enough to take the decision to have this defect corrected, I am choosing to take it, does not mean that I am lieing to myself in any way, it means that I am finally being truthful with myself. That I'm giving the finger to what society has expect and nurtured me to conform to so that I can fully develop as who I am. It's nothing more than a corrective procedure.

As for Unemployed Pirates, I'm hoping that he'll come on later so that I can talk to him. I was quite disappointed to have missed him, to be honest.

oh, and Bogstonia, perhaps I could attempt to clear up one tiny detail?



I do intend to be honest in any relationship I engage with for precisely that reason. I don't want to be with someone who is uncomfortable with me. That's a really bad place to build a relationship. But try and see it from the opposing perspective. A transsexual may have been deprived of a whole lot of emotional support before, or during transition. They may want to drop that aspect of their life totally, and try to move on. I won't say that's the right or wrong thing to do. But put simply, they might not feel that they can risk opening that aspect of their life back up. Rejection again might just be more than they feel able to handle. Logic and rationality can take a back seat when someone is emotionally fragile, bordering on shattered.

I agree, it must be very tough on people emotionally. I can't even begin to pretend to know what it would be like. It sounds like you have a good attitude about how you are going to handle relationships in the future. I just feel people should be honest in relationships about that type of thing because it's part of who they are. If they cannot be honest, then maybe they are not ready for a relationship at that time. Still, it's hard to imagine a situation where people would be less judgemental in such a matter than being transgender. I guess that's a major part of what makes it such a hard decision. Good luck with everything though, I hope it's a path that leads to hapiness for you.

I think we've well and truly town Underemployed Pirates to shreads :)


That's an odd statement...I thought this was a discussion of ideas, not a combative attempt to shread someone.

What we've been talking about is 2 different belief systems. Just because my belief system is based upon my Christianity doesn't mean it's any more biased or prejudiced that those who are addressing this topic from their belief syste.

For me to say what I think about the procedure, (and using clinical terms) to give the basis for my opinion, and to give offer my conclusion that it is "wrong" and should be illegal is no different than what you guys are saying: you're saying that it's ok because it's their body and none of my business -- I can accept that answer as being based on a sincerely held belief, even though I disagree with it.

You seems to say that it's a matter of "rights". But, what is the source of those rights? What is the extent of those rights?

Just because you fundamentally disagree with me doesn't mean that I'm a fanatic, unreasonable, a lunatic, or dodging issues.

I haven't attacked anyone, been sarcastic to anyone, or condemned anyone's opinion in here. Actually, I'm not even trying to "win" an arguement -- I'm just giving a differing opinion. That's it.

What we've been talking about is 2 different belief systems. Just because my belief system is based upon my Christianity doesn't mean it's any more biased or prejudiced that those who are addressing this topic from their belief syste.

For me to say what I think about the procedure, (and using clinical terms) to give the basis for my opinion, and to give offer my conclusion that it is "wrong" and should be illegal is no different than what you guys are saying: you're saying that it's ok because it's their body and none of my business -- I can accept that answer as being based on a sincerely held belief, even though I disagree with it.

You seems to say that it's a matter of "rights". But, what is the source of those rights? What is the extent of those rights?

Just because you fundamentally disagree with me doesn't mean that I'm a fanatic, unreasonable, a lunatic, or dodging issues.

I haven't attacked anyone, been sarcastic to anyone, or condemned anyone's opinion in here. Actually, I'm not even trying to "win" an arguement -- I'm just giving a differing opinion. That's it.


ok, if I can ask a question or two here about why you think it is wrong and should be illegal. Firstly, why do you believe that a person in this situation is incompetant to decide what is best for themselves, and so should be prevented by law to undergo such a procedure? Secondly, why does transsexuality offend you, for want of a better word, so much that you would rather see it outlawed?

...Transsexuals?

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do?

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far?

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends?
No, I don't think it's "wrong." Some people are born with brain and hormonal characteristics of the sex opposite to the one their physical bodies display. I would imagine that's frustrating in the extreme. It also explains why transexuals "feel the way they do."

Unless I miss my guess, transexuals can legally change their name, photo ID, and virtually every other legal document. If not, then perhaps the law should be changed.

ok, if I can ask a question or two here about why you think it is wrong and should be illegal. Firstly, why do you believe that a person in this situation is incompetant to decide what is best for themselves, and so should be prevented by law to undergo such a procedure? Secondly, why does transsexuality offend you, for want of a better word, so much that you would rather see it outlawed?

Generally, for acts contemplated to be done in the future, "competency" refers to whether a person understands the consequences of what they are doing. In a criminal justice setting, it also refers to whether a person knows that the conduct is right or wrong. In a criminal justice setting, a person certainly can be "competent", but what is being done is deemed by society as being criminal conduct.

So, in any event, I don't believe that mental "competency" is the issue. The reason is that you can get a host of mental health experts lined up according to what you want the outcome to be on darned near any issue. 100 years ago, you probably couldn't have filled a thimble with the number of psychologists and psychiatrists who would have diagnosed someone (who otherwise was physiologically "normal") who wanted this surgery as being "competent". Even if the person understands the potential consequences (physical, mental, relational) of the surgery and believes that he/she has the "right" to make that decision, I believe that the action should be criminalized because it is destructive to us as a society.

The laws that we enforce are based on what our society as a whole believes should be regulated. So, the idea that I am advocating that a law govern a particular conduct is not unique. The only thing unique about my stance is that it is different than those in here who base their standards of conduct on a different belief system.

To illustrate why I think the surgery should be illegal, let's look at a continuum of behaviors: At the far left side we have barbershops and nail salons. On the far right side we have physician-assisted suicide. Clearly, in the American society, a licensed barber can cut someone's hair for pay. But, in some fringes of some societies, hair-cutting is viewed as blasphemous and is punished. Currently, a licensed physician in the American society cannot kill a patient who finds out that he has a terminal illness that will kill them in 6 months and who doesn't want to go through the pain, cost, trauma to family, etc of that experience. In my opinion, somewhere on that continuum lies the surgery we're talking about. I happen to believe that it is so far toward the far right side that it should be criminalized, if for no other reason than as a deterrant to prevant them or others from having the surgery done.

Folks in here can continue to press me with "why" questions to this or that, as I could with their points, but the bottom line is that we all mentally place the surgery someplace on the continuum. Now, some folks in here may very well think that physician-assisted suicide is a matter of personal right. Both my parents died in this past year, one from brain cancer and one from Alzheimers. I know the horrible experince of watching a loved one go through terrible pain in a last few days of their terminal conditions. And, yes, the thought did cross my mind about "helping" them out of their suffering.

If you believe that people have the "right" to make this decision for themselves, then I canpress you on "why" you think they have the right. When you respond that it's their body so they should be able to do it, then i can say "why" you think that. This basically is what folks in here have been doing when I've explained what I thought and why.

I've said it before -- this boils down to belief systes, regardless of whether it's faith-based or something else.

I happen to believe that it is so far toward the far right side that it should be criminalized, if for no other reason than as a deterrant to prevant them or others from having the surgery done.
so you would criminilize the procedure (and most likely push up the already high suicide rate among transsexuals) just because it doesnt agree with your particular view of morals? By doing that you would effectively condemn people to death

-snip-

Interesting response. Unfortunately, you seem to have gotten a little fed-up on the "why" questions, which I think is unfortunate. so in a completely related way, I'm going to say why I think such responsibility should come down to the individual in a cheap attempt to get you to answer my questions. Ultimately, for such an act, somebody has to take responsibility for it. It is up to us, as society, to choose who is best suited for that. There's two real contenders. The individual, who we can consider expert on themselves, or the government, which must make generalisations in order to function. if a government done everything on a case by case process it'd never get anything done. I'd rather have an expert take responsibility than someone with little to no knowledge in the field. Secondly, I believe such surgery is acceptable (well, I have to since I'm getting it, hehe) because it does not affect the life of anyone in a negative way, and affects mine in a positive way. Nobody is made miserable by my choice, yet I am made happier, so if anything, it creates another constructive member of society. This is why I believe my choice is acceptable, as it does no quantifiable wrong.

Now, assuming that worked and you would answer some of my questions, I have one specific one. You mentioned that you felt that this surgery is destructive to society. In what way does it do this?

A further question that occured to me, whilst slightly off on a tangent is this. Do you not believe that society is merely a tool to aid human interaction and development? It is my belief that society should change itself around peoples beliefs, and that their beliefs should not be made to conform to societies. Where do you stand on that?

How did I miss this first time round?

...Transsexuals?

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do?

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far?

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends?
I'm sure you all know this, but I am completely supportive of transsexuals, and have no problem with them changing their bodies. I think that gender is not as rigid as we think, and that transgendered people are natural, and normal. If they become physically of the other gender (transsexual) they should be recognised legally as such. I think it is their choice to disclose or not. Period.

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do?

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far?

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends?
No

The feel that way because their brain was born into the wrong body. Or something like that. Yeah.

Their passport sex should be in line with their physical sex.

If they want to.

Why are you communicating so angrily? If we were talking face-to-face, would you be acting this way?

Reading your discussion so far, here is my comment.

UP...you are projecting. I'm not seeing the hostility you claim to.

What these TG people need is a brick to the head, or at least years of mental therapy.
The former is illegal because is assault. The latter has already been tried by various authoritarian governments in the past, and it doesn't work.

I just don't agree with the apparent standard of "it doesn't hurt me, so it's none of my business" that seems to prevail in this thread. I think this type of surgery demeans all of us as a society and should be prohibited.

I think it's totally appropriate for society to have standards that prohibit this type of conduct. I don't think it's too much a stress to argue that this mutiliation should be illegal just like society makes plain-vanilla suicide (not mercy killing) illegal. If folks can have this sex organ surgery because "it's their body", why should folks be able to kill themselves for whatever reason they deem sufficient?
Why should the government interfere in surgery like this?

How does it demean anyone else?

Do you feel this way about all surgery or is it only because it's sex organ-related that you have a problem with it?

This type of surgery is wrong.

The whole born into the wrong body thing is crap. Invented mumbo-jumbo to help soothe the moral trauma induced by such a drastic action.

Aesthetically speaking it is just scary to see a man's face on a woman's body. Most men make very UGLY women. There are very few people who can pull it off.

Private reasons for doing it are generally not the "bodysnatcher" reasons given publicly. Most of it is done on men who are obsessed with women and breasts to the point that they want to see that everyday, even in the mirror.
It is lust.

It has a lot to do with the societal view of beauty. Women are viewed as beautiful and aesthetical. Men are viewed more utilitarian. Doens't matter what they look like on the outside. But some men want to be attractive, but society only gives them one ideal. The ideal of women. Sex sells. It has pervaded everything in our society. Wanna sell a car, put a half naked woman in the comercial (not a half naked guy).

Society is to blame. But that doesn't make it right.

You are born the way you are born, such is life.

I feel similarly about other cosmetic surgeries. They are selfish generally and too easy by far than just working out and losing weight.
You want to be thin? Liposuction. Wanna do X? we gotta an easy way out for EVERYTHING! Why do think we are all so messed up, because we LET this kinda thing happen.

Men are men. Women are women.
Birth defect are lamentable but they are still defects and should not sway the Norm. At least half of all birth defects are drug related anyway, so we come back to the selfishness that pervades all.

*snip*
Please make sure you state that these are your opinions, and that you are not representing facts. Otherwise provide some sources for these claims.

This type of surgery is wrong.

The whole born into the wrong body thing is crap. Invented mumbo-jumbo to help soothe the moral trauma induced by such a drastic action.
Bullshit

Aesthetically speaking it is just scary to see a man's face on a woman's body. Most men make very UGLY women. There are very few people who can pull it off.
Do you think a transsexual particularly cares if other people think they are attractive or not?

Private reasons for doing it are generally not the "bodysnatcher" reasons given publicly. Most of it is done on men who are obsessed with women and breasts to the point that they want to see that everyday, even in the mirror.
It is lust.
even those transsexuals who are attracted to the opposite sex after surgery? (i.e. a male to female attracted to males)

It has a lot to do with the societal view of beauty. Women are viewed as beautiful and aesthetical. Men are viewed more utilitarian. Doens't matter what they look like on the outside. But some men want to be attractive, but society only gives them one ideal. The ideal of women. Sex sells. It has pervaded everything in our society. Wanna sell a car, put a half naked woman in the comercial (not a half naked guy).
No, its not. Its about the individuals sense of gender in relation to their body - nothing to do with societies view of beauty

Society is to blame. But that doesn't make it right.
no, its not

You are born the way you are born, such is life.
Yes, you are. But you are also able to change it.


Men are men. Women are women.
I suppose you agree that all men have XY chromosones, and all women have XX chromosones?

Wrong.

Birth defect are lamentable but they are still defects and should not sway the Norm. At least half of all birth defects are drug related anyway, so we come back to the selfishness that pervades all.
Its a birth defect that drives people to suicide. If allowing transsexuals to do what they want to do reduces the number of suicide rates then why is that a bad thing?

This type of surgery is wrong.

The whole born into the wrong body thing is crap. Invented mumbo-jumbo to help soothe the moral trauma induced by such a drastic action.

Aesthetically speaking it is just scary to see a man's face on a woman's body. Most men make very UGLY women. There are very few people who can pull it off.

Private reasons for doing it are generally not the "bodysnatcher" reasons given publicly. Most of it is done on men who are obsessed with women and breasts to the point that they want to see that everyday, even in the mirror.
It is lust.

It has a lot to do with the societal view of beauty. Women are viewed as beautiful and aesthetical. Men are viewed more utilitarian. Doens't matter what they look like on the outside. But some men want to be attractive, but society only gives them one ideal. The ideal of women. Sex sells. It has pervaded everything in our society. Wanna sell a car, put a half naked woman in the comercial (not a half naked guy).

Society is to blame. But that doesn't make it right.

You are born the way you are born, such is life.

I feel similarly about other cosmetic surgeries. They are selfish generally and too easy by far than just working out and losing weight.
You want to be thin? Liposuction. Wanna do X? we gotta an easy way out for EVERYTHING! Why do think we are all so messed up, because we LET this kinda thing happen.

Men are men. Women are women.
Birth defect are lamentable but they are still defects and should not sway the Norm. At least half of all birth defects are drug related anyway, so we come back to the selfishness that pervades all.


I'll consider myself amply experienced to tell you that you're completely
wrong.

"The whole born into the wrong body thing is crap. Invented mumbo-jumbo to help soothe the moral trauma induced by such a drastic action."

wrong. I haven't had such a drastic action to induce trauma on me, and it won't induce trauma on me when I have it done. it's a truth. Gender roles are not black and white. Why would it inflict "moral trauma" when it's what I want, anyway?

"Aesthetically speaking it is just scary to see a man's face on a woman's body. Most men make very UGLY women. There are very few people who can pull it off."

that's just bad luck for you. Perhaps that'd indicate that it isn't just for the aesthetic reasons that people get this done?

"Private reasons for doing it are generally not the "bodysnatcher" reasons given publicly. Most of it is done on men who are obsessed with women and breasts to the point that they want to see that everyday, even in the mirror.
It is lust."

Again. Wrong. I'm practically assexual. Although you are also correct in a way, if you ended on the word "mirror". Lust it isn't. and it's obsessed with being female. Not obsessed with the gender in general. But the fact that you make such an assumption with no knowledge of your own really impresses me. You're almost convincing me here. *lies*

"It has a lot to do with the societal view of beauty. Women are viewed as beautiful and aesthetical. Men are viewed more utilitarian. Doens't matter what they look like on the outside. But some men want to be attractive, but society only gives them one ideal. The ideal of women. Sex sells. It has pervaded everything in our society. Wanna sell a car, put a half naked woman in the comercial (not a half naked guy)."

See what Nadkor said, last page, bottom post. I couldn't say it better myself.

"Society is to blame. But that doesn't make it right."

No, nobody is to blame. Nobody even knows what causes transsexuality. There are some indicators, such as hormone imbalances in the womb, but no-one has a 100% cause reason. And it's perfectly right. Give one scrap of evidence that makes it "wrong"

"You are born the way you are born, such is life."

Or not. The wonders of science. And it may interest you to know that there was a transsexual religion in Roman times, involving genital amputation and much flinging. As well as transsexual native americans. Both were revered in their societies. Not shunned, revered. See, we're humans. We don't have to live with what we've got if we're unhappy with it. Our body is simply an avatar for the mind, to give a new age vibe to the whole post (maaaaan)... why not alter it if it is unsatisfactory?

"I feel similarly about other cosmetic surgeries. They are selfish generally and too easy by far than just working out and losing weight.
You want to be thin? Liposuction. Wanna do X? we gotta an easy way out for EVERYTHING! Why do think we are all so messed up, because we LET this kinda thing happen."

of course they're selfish, they're personal body augmentations. Your argument falls down by somehow making it bad to be selfish. It's bad to only consider yourself to the detriment of others. But when it harms nobody, and helps yourself, there's nothing wrong with it. They aren't forcing you to have liposuction, after all.

"Men are men. Women are women.
Birth defect are lamentable but they are still defects and should not sway the Norm. At least half of all birth defects are drug related anyway, so we come back to the selfishness that pervades all."

no, it is exactly that attitude that causes transsexuals such anguish. If that was the case, then how have transsexuals been a part of our society for as long as we've existed? And cancer is not the norm. Should we stop treating it? The number of people with all sorts of rare ailments are not "the norm"... do they get no compassion in your eyes? Would you refuse to treat someone with motor neurone disease because they're not "normal?" Think about it.

And if your last comment is insinuating that transsexuals are at least 50% caused by having junky mothers... that could be considered a pretty major flame. You might wish to reconsider it.

No flame was intended. I was not talking about "trans"-anything. I was talking solely on 50% of birth defects being the effect of selfishness on the part of the parents.

Though you assume much to think I have no idea what I am talking about.
I speak from personal experience.

I did not say we don't treat the deformed/birth defects. Of course we should treat ALL with ailments!

I was refering to using such ailments as excuses to say that our behavior is all right.

That in the womb stuff is crap to. It hasn't been proven. (Or disproven (one nudge in your favor)) Like many things it is a theory/conjecture to try and explain away a human choice.

When it comes right down to it, it is a choice. Not a previously existing condition. I know of which I speak.

No flame was intended. I was not talking about "trans"-anything. I was talking solely on 50% of birth defects being the effect of selfishness on the part of the parents.

Though you assume much to think I have no idea what I am talking about.
I speak from personal experience.

I did not say we don't treat the deformed/birth defects. Of course we should treat ALL with ailments!

I was refering to using such ailments as excuses to say that our behavior is all right.

That in the womb stuff is crap to. It hasn't been proven. (Or disproven (one nudge in your favor)) Like many things it is a theory/conjecture to try and explain away a human choice.

When it comes right down to it, it is a choice. Not a previously existing condition. I know of which I speak.


Really, you know of which you speak? Exactly what qualifies you to say that? Jordaxia has already said that s/he (sorry, I'm not sure which to use Jordaxia and would appreciate clarification so I won't be insulting to you or anyone TG) IS a transexual. That's first hand knowledge.

Lets just say that I saw the light before making any drastic choices.
I found that I am the person I was born to be. When I was young I was confused and the reasons I gave earlier were some of mine.

I am perfectly qualified to say what someone may feel that could drive them to that bad choice.

I found my way back to reality.

No flame was intended. I was not talking about "trans"-anything. I was talking solely on 50% of birth defects being the effect of selfishness on the part of the parents.
I know, but pointing out that statistic seemed to be an assault on my parents. If that wasn't intended, then naturally I take no offense.

Though you assume much to think I have no idea what I am talking about.
I speak from personal experience.

if you would not mind saying, what personal experience? and how does it give you the right to make blanket statements about what goes through the mind of trans people? Mine were purely in my opinion, though I should have made that clear.[/QUOTE]

I did not say we don't treat the deformed/birth defects. Of course we should treat ALL with ailments!

But I have an ailment which is severe to me. it causes me severe depression to live as I am. This is my treatment.

I was refering to using such ailments as excuses to say that our behavior is all right.

our? Societies, or a more specific group? who is the "our" that you refer to?

That in the womb stuff is crap to. It hasn't been proven. (Or disproven (one nudge in your favor)) Like many things it is a theory/conjecture to try and explain away a human choice.

I don't choose to volunteer myself to a life of being harangued and mocked by intolerants, with a lot of potential pain involved. I don't even ride rollercoasters. This is not a choice, this is a necessity for me to become a happy person.

When it comes right down to it, it is a choice. Not a previously existing condition. I know of which I speak.

I did not think "you know, here's a wild thought, I'll have my penis amputated. That should fill an hour." It was a long conflict within myself to the realisation that this is what I need. In the barest sense of the word, yes, it is a choice. I could either stay as I am, which is utterly pointless as it only makes me miserable, or have the change, and become far happier. Whilst technically a "choice", it's not much of one.

Lets just say that I saw the light before making any drastic choices.
I found that I am the person I was born to be. When I was young I was confused and the reasons I gave earlier were some of mine.

I am perfectly qualified to say what someone may feel that could drive them to that bad choice.

I found my way back to reality.


You explained as I was posting.

To respond, yes, you found who you were born to be. But surely you cannot say that the same will be true for all people? What about the hundreds of thousands who are happier afterwards? Surely you cannot call all of their happiness a delusion? (a blind assumption on my half, but purely to prove a point) Naturally some will feel that this is the incorrect thing to do. Gender identity is not black and white, like I said. But many will fell that this is what they have to do.

Also, many people who believed they were trans before redeciding, or having went through the op and realising that it was not for them make this same statement. It was not right for them, so it must be right for no-one. I've read a lot about people with bad trans experience, it's a common link between 90% of them.

Interesting response. Unfortunately, you seem to have gotten a little fed-up on the "why" questions ....

You mentioned that you felt that this surgery is destructive to society. In what way does it do this? ...

A further question that occured to me, whilst slightly off on a tangent is this. Do you not believe that society is merely a tool to aid human interaction and development? It is my belief that society should change itself around peoples beliefs, and that their beliefs should not be made to conform to societies. Where do you stand on that?


The original question was, basically, "do you think it's wrong?"

Now, I assumed that the person asking the question wasn't trolling. And, I responded by giving my answer, my reasoning, and the belief system supporting my reasoning. Most folks who have responded to me haven't bothered to do that also. Instead, they've become testy and demanding and told me how biased and prejudiced I am. I've commented about the "why" questions because i've wanted to communicate that I don't think that a fusillade of "why's" from people advances a meaningful discussion much. You, however, have provided some reasoning behind your opinion (based on your belief system), and I certainly can appreciate that.

One of the reasons I think the surgery is destructive to society is that I believe that it minimizes the value of a human life -- Basically, it is a crime against humanity. Another reason is that I believe it is fundmentally deceptive to others -- the male/female nature of the human species is fundamental to its existence. Another reason is that I believe that it violates the physician's essential role of preserving and protecting human life ...

I believe that people should strive behave in a way that is pleasing and honoring to God.

I believe that God has ordained government to aid people in their daily lives.

I believe that we have a responsibility to each other to love, encourage, support, and discipline (yes, I said that) each other.

I believe that it is a legitimate role of government to regulate certain behavior according to generally acceptable norms.

I believe that there are absolute standards of right and wrong.

I believe that just because a society generally accepts a certain behavior doesn't necessarily mean that the behavior is "good" or "right".

I believe that certain behaviors that are atypical are not necessarily "abnormal".

I believe that not all abnormal behavior should be criminalized.

I believe that certain "abnormal" behaviors should be criminalized.

I believe that we should value other people because they are loved by God.

I believe that the discipline that is appropriate depends on the degree to which the conduct hurts other people.



Now, from some folks other than you, what I anticipate is a series of "why" questions, or ridiculing remarks, or perhaps some flaming attacks.

If folks don't want posts from people with differing opinions, then just tell me and I'll go on my way. If you want to have a meaningful discussion of ideas, I'll be happy to partcipate.

Another reason is that I believe that it violates the physician's essential role of preserving and protecting human life ...
i would say it preserves life. if it stops a transsexual person from killing themselves, then its preserving life

i would say it preserves life. if it stops a transsexual person from killing themselves, then its preserving life


I understand and appreciate your opinion, but I think it's based on an assumption and without balancing it against the greater good (in my opinion). I think the conclusion that some people may kill themselves if it's criminalized may be supported by some anecdotal evidence, but i don't know.

You didn't say that it was "justified" because it could save a life, but what you said comes close to it. If I see someone with his leg caught in between railroad track and a train is barreling down ansd will kill him, I'd be justified in chopping off the guys leg if that was the only way to save his life. If a physician see gangrene, I supposed at some point he's got to decide when the leg needs to come off to save the life. I don't see this sex change surgery as fitting into this "justification" line of thought.

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?Not really. If it's true about having the psyche of a woman trapped in a man's body (or vice versa) and surgery will make them feel the true person they are, I can't see anything wrong. Plus, it's your body, you should be able to do whatever the hell you like with it.

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do?I don't know about female to male, but with male to female it could have something to do with the fact that we are all female to begin with (same idea as the whole mae nipple thing, but for mental gender)

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far?Change it. If you know that you are a woman, even if you were born a man, I imagine you might get a bit pissed for being constantly labelled a guy.

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends?Yes. Honesty is always important in any form of relationship. Besides, it will sort out the good friends from the bad ones.

EDIT: Sorry I'm so late posting this. It appears you have all moved on to the discussion bit now...

I understand and appreciate your opinion, but I think it's based on an assumption and without balancing it against the greater good (in my opinion). I think the conclusion that some people may kill themselves if it's criminalized may be supported by some anecdotal evidence, but i don't know.
Whats based on an assumption? that banning gender reassignment would lead to a rise in suicide rates?

You didn't say that it was "justified" because it could save a life, but what you said comes close to it. If I see someone with his leg caught in between railroad track and a train is barreling down ansd will kill him, I'd be justified in chopping off the guys leg if that was the only way to save his life. If a physician see gangrene, I supposed at some point he's got to decide when the leg needs to come off to save the life. I don't see this sex change surgery as fitting into this "justification" line of thought.
Thats pretty much what i meant...its justified because it effectively saves a life.

Anything to reduce the number of people who feel they have no option but to end their own lives is a good thing. Suicide is the saddest thing possible...the idea that someones life was so bad they ended it themselves because they saw no other choice.

Anything to reduce the number of people who feel they have no option but to end their own lives is a good thing. Suicide is the saddest thing possible...the idea that someones life was so bad they ended it themselves because they saw no other choice.Well said. Rates of suicide among transgendered individuals - here at least - are high. It doesn't need to be that way.

Whats based on an assumption? that banning gender reassignment would lead to a rise in suicide rates?


Thats pretty much what i meant...its justified because it effectively saves a life.

Anything to reduce the number of people who feel they have no option but to end their own lives is a good thing. Suicide is the saddest thing possible...the idea that someones life was so bad they ended it themselves because they saw no other choice.



I appreciate your thoughtful replies.

I don't have any data concerning the effect of criminalization of sex change operations on suicide rates. There may be some, but I haven't heard of it. Assuming there is some, I guess that could invite a discussion about the societal utility of 1 suicide to the prevention of "X" operations, but I don't think that kind of discussion is helpful or meaningful -- it's probably just mean.

I've got to split. I have enjoyed the discussion with you.

I appreciate your thoughtful replies.

I don't have any data concerning the effect of criminalization of sex change operations on suicide rates. There may be some, but I haven't heard of it. Assuming there is some, I guess that could invite a discussion about the societal utility of 1 suicide to the prevention of "X" operations, but I don't think that kind of discussion is helpful or meaningful -- it's probably just mean.

I've got to split. I have enjoyed the discussion with you.
the general suicide for rate transsexuals by the age of 30 is 50%. Think about that for a second...thats even with gender reassignment available.

Now, imagine those people that have seriously considered suicide, but instead decide to give gender reassignment a go instead. what do they do if gender reassignment isnt available? they kill themselves. I know i would.

Bye

well, as a pre-treatment transsexual, I'd love to clarify a few details for you. Unfortunately I really can't. It's incredibly difficult to explain without coming across as repeating the same old cliches that most people already know of. But hey, I'll take one point and refute it as best I can.



Of course. As everyone knows that people think from their internal organs and genitals. The brain is just a device for cooling down blood, eh? Or not. As an m-t-f, I can strongly say that I am female, I have just been denied the opportunity to develop from birth as one, due to a birth defect that evidently resulted in me being born with the wrong set of genitals.

No, in fact, you cant' say that, because you don't have to assume that gender roles and behaviors are assigned. That is my point. How can you know what being "female" is inately if it's not defined? What if, God forbid, you may just be what you are because you are SUPPOSED to be? I don't and wont' buy it that gender roles are assigned. If you had read more carefully what I had said, you would understand that point.

You're not female. You may get your body changed and you may tell people that, but you aren't. You will never be. You were not born "with the wrong genitals." Maybe, just maybe, you were born into a society that told you that, but that doesn't make it proven or true.

I do intend to be honest in any relationship I engage with for precisely that reason. I don't want to be with someone who is uncomfortable with me. That's a really bad place to build a relationship. But try and see it from the opposing perspective. A transsexual may have been deprived of a whole lot of emotional support before, or during transition. They may want to drop that aspect of their life totally, and try to move on.

Then you advocate lying.


This is exactly what bothers me about transgenderism. It's like when black people "pass" for another race (I happen to be mutliracial and know well of this fact) and feel they must do it be accepted by society and "fit" what society says their race "should" be. No one's proven to me that race-assigned roles are true. I don't believe in gender-assigned roles either.

I'm sorry, you may not be a man or a woman by the narrow definitions society has given you, and for that, I am sorry.

But you will never truly be a woman. I don't care what you wear or what you cut off.

Ge-Ren

But I have an ailment which is severe to me. it causes me severe depression to live as I am. This is my treatment. I don't choose to volunteer myself to a life of being harangued and mocked by intolerants, with a lot of potential pain involved. I don't even ride rollercoasters. This is not a choice, this is a necessity for me to become a happy person.

That's really, really sad. I feel so sorry for you. Your body and your being you were born into is not an "ailment," it's a challenge, much as many other people have. You are changing your body because you don't want to put up with intolerance? C'mon.

We've got enough insecure people with vaginas in the world...why make another? I hear women who get breast implants and liposuction say the exact same things you do: that they are being "treated" for the "ailment" of not being what they imagine themselves to be. That's an issue about what's inside. You change the outside and maybe get temporary happiness, but that depression will come creeping right back to you...and then what excuse will you have? What will you cut off next?

You're not going to be what you imagine. I hope you work more on what you are and being happy with it, whether you castrate yourself or not.

Ge-Ren

No, in fact, you cant' say that, because you don't have to assume that gender roles and behaviors are assigned. That is my point. How can you know what being "female" is inately if it's not defined? What if, God forbid, you may just be what you are because you are SUPPOSED to be? I don't and wont' buy it that gender roles are assigned. If you had read more carefully what I had said, you would understand that point.

You're not female. You may get your body changed and you may tell people that, but you aren't. You will never be. You were not born "with the wrong genitals." Maybe, just maybe, you were born into a society that told you that, but that doesn't make it proven or true.

I do believe that gender roles are assigned. By society. And I reject this assignment for what suits me. What feels right to me. I don't believe in such rigid gender roles in nature, because everyone is a shade of gray. I'm adapting my body to better fit the shade of gray I come under. On a certain point, I'd like to contest this particular sentence:

"you may just be what you are because you are SUPPOSED to be?"

that assumes two things. One, that something as unstable and fragile as nature is in fact infallible. There are NEVER mistakes. Patently false. Second, it implies some fate crap which I don't hold to. Nobody "pre-designed" me, and thought "hey, I'll give this girl a body discordant with her brain!" It didn't happen.

Then you advocate lying.

I don't, personally. But I believe it's justified. Don't think that I am unaware that it would be a lie. People lie all the time about bigger things. I don't justify that either so don't try the "two wrongs" argument, I'm just pointing it out. But sometimes there is a justification for a lie, and emotional fragility to me is a damned good one.


This is exactly what bothers me about transgenderism. It's like when black people "pass" for another race (I happen to be mutliracial and know well of this fact) and feel they must do it be accepted by society and "fit" what society says their race "should" be. No one's proven to me that race-assigned roles are true. I don't believe in gender-assigned roles either.

I'm sorry, you may not be a man or a woman by the narrow definitions society has given you, and for that, I am sorry.

But you will never truly be a woman. I don't care what you wear or what you cut off.

First of all... I know zilch about your first point, and it's not relevant to the arguement. I'm not ignoring it, I'm just not countering it.

Second of all, society is taking a back-seat. I'm doing this for me. if I cared what society thought then I'd live my life in quiet denial and misery.

Third, you assume that I want to fit the precise stereotyped or accentuated female gender role. This is incorrect. I simply want to fit who I am, a fact that is unrepresented by my body. There's no such thing as a "true woman" or a "true man", merely societally imposed definitions, which as I have already established, I am discordant with.


That's really, really sad. I feel so sorry for you. Your body and your being you were born into is not an "ailment," it's a challenge, much as many other people have. You are changing your body because you don't want to put up with intolerance? C'mon.


I think this is a simple question of misreading. I'm changing my body in spite of the intolerance of society, not because of it. As I am currently, I'm an average white male.aside from white-haters and man-haters, I'm never subjected to intolerance.


We've got enough insecure people with vaginas in the world...why make another? I hear women who get breast implants and liposuction say the exact same things you do: that they are being "treated" for the "ailment" of not being what they imagine themselves to be. That's an issue about what's inside. You change the outside and maybe get temporary happiness, but that depression will come creeping right back to you...and then what excuse will you have? What will you cut off next?

Another misinterpretation. this is not just about surgery. That's the last step that a transsexual takes, by and large, and is actually not all that important to me. I want it gone, but what is most important to me is that I can live as myself. The body I'm currently in is not representative of it. Perhaps what you are forgetting is that the difference between a man and a woman is not just breasts and womb, or penis, but huge amounts of hormonal differences, and other, subtler differences. This is not just about unhappiness. This is about discordance, and they are two very different things.

You're not going to be what you imagine. I hope you work more on what you are and being happy with it, whether you castrate yourself or not.

Actually, the wealth of evidence here suggests that I "am" going to be what I imagine, given that this is something that all satisfied transsexuals profess. A feeling of being their true self, both mentally and physically. See, you can say that my depression will return. Evidence is against you or the vast majority of transsexuals would be miserable with their life, instead it is the other way round. It may be hard for you to believe, because I don't think you have experienced gender dysphoria, but I shall try to elaborate on the intensity of this "incorrectness" with myself that I have felt for my entire life (yes, that long.)

I have a history, for as long as I can remember (we're talking 3-6 years old here) of attacking my genitalia. I didn't know why, but they felt incorrect, like they shouldn't be there, and so, I tried, in my own ineffective way, to sort it. I'd crush them, trying to force it back into my body, to remove them. This is between the ages of 3 and 6, remember, though it admittedly carried on until I was twelve. That is the level of discord that this brings about with myself.

...Transsexuals?

Do you think it's wrong that transsexuals are able to change their bodies in that way?

Why do you think transsexuals feel the way they do?

Do you think transsexuals should be able to change their legal status (ie change their passport etc from male to female and vice-versa), or is that too far?

Do you think transsexuals should disclose their past to friends?mixed feelings... after all. it's there body... so it's their choice... however... I would not like my parter to drop that bombshell on me... ever.

after all, if they change, then it should be complete... thus no looking back, no reflecting on what was done... that bridge was burnt and so why bring it up.

I honestly don't see what the big deal is... A transsexual woman is a woman both before and after her surgery. The sex of her body is unimportant. What matters is the sex of her mind and soul. As for her passport and such, she should be allowed to be whatever sex she is inside. The body is completely unimportant. I do think that for the sake of honesty she should tell anyone she was romantically involved with, just to save herself from the knee-jerk reactions so many posters in this thread have had.

The laws that we enforce are based on what our society as a whole believes should be regulated. So, the idea that I am advocating that a law govern a particular conduct is not unique. The only thing unique about my stance is that it is different than those in here who base their standards of conduct on a different belief system.


You've just shot your own argument in the head.

Your society enforces a law that *permits* gender reassignment [you are from the US, right?]. Has done for decades. There are internationally renowned units in the US since before colour TV.

Unless I'm mistaken, US law has been able to accomodate gender reassignment since before it could reasonably accommodate black people.

Private reasons for doing it are generally not the "bodysnatcher" reasons given publicly. Most of it is done on men who are obsessed with women and breasts to the point that they want to see that everyday, even in the mirror.
It is lust.


Eh, no. In order for a person to undergo gender reassignment surgery, all such motivations must be ruled out. The person is required, for example, to live openly within the norms of whichever is their intended gender for extended periods. This is not like getting your eyebrows botoxed - it is a last resort.


Reading this again, the paragraph above isn't very clear - if someone can think of a clearer way to put it, please post it.


Doctors and allied professionals make bloody sure that reassignment is in the best interests of the person before any trip to an OR is booked. Reassignment is one of the final stages in a long process.

But thanks for demonstrating that you know slightly less than very little about the issue.

One of the reasons I think the surgery is destructive to society is that I believe that it minimizes the value of a human life -- Basically, it is a crime against humanity. Another reason is that I believe it is fundmentally deceptive to others -- the male/female nature of the human species is fundamental to its existence. Another reason is that I believe that it violates the physician's essential role of preserving and protecting human life ...


Twaddle.

On the one hand here in this little forum of ours is Team A: We're sitting here saying "the life of a transgendered person is valuable enough to warrant our enabling them to pursue physical modification appropriate to their identity".

On the other side is Team B: "Sod what the transgendered want".

So - which side is maximising the value of a human life? Is it the side that says human life is so valuable that we must do all in our power to enable and empower humans, or is it the side that say NAH UH, GOD SAYS NO?

My money's quite firmly on Team A there.

Bad
Bad Hormones in Water supply
No they shouldnt change legal status
Yes they should tell friends

Bad
Bad Hormones in Water supply
No they shouldnt change legal status
Yes they should tell friends

Care to elaborate a bit?

Bad
Bad Hormones in Water supply
No they shouldnt change legal status
Yes they should tell friends

...why am I a bad person?

Erm... I don't think that has any founding in anything, especially since nobody knows what causes transsexuality yet.

Yes, so that every employer can keep them at a safe distance, and they get reminded of it at every opportunity.

I don't see why it matters so much. I only think that's necessary information to make sure I know where my friends stand and if they're prejudiced or not.

I'm sorry, you may not be a man or a woman by the narrow definitions society has given you, and for that, I am sorry.

But you will never truly be a woman. I don't care what you wear or what you cut off.
Hi. I partially agree with your post, that society assigns gender rules, and that fact is ridiculous. I'm not sure if this is what causes transgenderism, I'm not qualified to say. However, right underneath this post, you essentially said that whether or not gender roles are black and white, gender is.

So, my question is: how do you define gender?

Well, I think people have a right to do what they like with their bodies, although it does seem like mutilation to me, quite unpleasant. Also, I wouldn't want to be with a "woman" who is actually a man that had his body cut up and put back together different to look like a woman.

Well, I think people have a right to do what they like with their bodies, although it does seem like mutilation to me, quite unpleasant. Also, I wouldn't want to be with a "woman" who is actually a man that had his body cut up and put back together different to look like a woman.
But a transsexual woman isnt actually a man. Shes a woman. She has breasts and a vagina you wouldm struggle to tell apart from that of a 'natural' woman.

You've just shot your own argument in the head.

Your society enforces a law that *permits* gender reassignment [you are from the US, right?]. Has done for decades. There are internationally renowned units in the US since before colour TV.

Unless I'm mistaken, US law has been able to accomodate gender reassignment since before it could reasonably accommodate black people.


You quoted only a portion of what I've said. I also said:
"I believe that it is a legitimate role of government to regulate certain behavior according to generally acceptable norms.

I believe that there are absolute standards of right and wrong.

I believe that just because a society generally accepts a certain behavior doesn't necessarily mean that the behavior is "good" or "right"."



Earlier, another poster made a comment about slavery. At one time, slavery was "legal" in the US. That didn't make it right.


I think I've been quite thorogh in responding to people in this thread. So, I'll be happy to explain further if you have some question that I haven't already addressed.

This is not an attempt to Hijack the Thread... so apologies if it seem like such.

This is a question concerning Religious and Non-Religous thinkers.

For people of Faith (any and all religions) if you were created/born male/female, what possible reason would you give for chaning your gender when it's apparent that God(s)(ess) wanted you to be that Gender? (otherwise He/She/They would've made you the other Gender to begin with.)

For People of Non-Religious Belief. if everything is Natural and according to Nature, what is behind this feeling of needed to be of another Gender? why (in your opinion) be Born One Gender but leave you wanting to be another?

For Both. Why the desire to change... do you feel it's Nurture or Nature that's behind this? the people you interact with? or the Environment you live/lived in?

this is not flame baiting, but an honest attempt to understand. So if you don't feel comfortable replying, I understand and would ranther you then keep silent, for I know anyone who does answer will be pounced by the lurking Flamers/Trollers.

For the Flamers/Trollers... this is a serious question, and not bait to locate targets. inother words. Please refrain from Flaming/Trolling.

Thanks.

For Both. Why the desire to change... do you feel it's Nurture or Nature that's behind this? the people you interact with? or the Environment you live/lived in?

I think its nature. I was always raised by my parents as a boy, as a perfectly normal boy, but i always felt that i wasnt. I even remember telling someone, when i was about 5, that i was a girl and that they were wrong saying that i was a boy....this is even though i was raised from the earliest as a boy. my entire life i have been raised as a boy, but i still dont feel that i am male - i consider myself to be female. how does that fit with nurture?

...why am I a bad person?

Erm... I don't think that has any founding in anything, especially since nobody knows what causes transsexuality yet.

Yes, so that every employer can keep them at a safe distance, and they get reminded of it at every opportunity.

I don't see why it matters so much. I only think that's necessary information to make sure I know where my friends stand and if they're prejudiced or not.
Razor Burn?