NationStates Jolt Archive

As opposed to producing evidence before the fact.....
I suppose showing you the satellite photos wouldn't change your mind anyway, so what's the point?

I'd wait until the Italian investigation concludes before saying too much. If they substantiate the US conclusions, some people here will end up looking pretty foolish. But of course in that case the Italian government would suddenly be labeled as yet another Bush puppet.
What do you mean with suddenly? Everyone knows Berlusconi is in the US's backpocket.

What do you mean with suddenly? Everyone knows Berlusconi is in the US's backpocket.
Oh yeah, my bad. Every government in the world aside from Iran, China and N. Korea are all puppets of Bush and his evil neocon conspiracy to conquer the world and destroy the environment. Once he's silenced all opposition, Bush will use napalm against every national park on the planet. Then he will use a nuke to rupture Saudi Arabian oil reserves, let the oil spill out onto the oceans, and light it up, filling the atmosphere with smoke and killing all ocean life.

Glad you reminded me :D I almost forgot!

Oh yeah, my bad. Every government in the world aside from Iran, China and N. Korea are all puppets of Bush and his evil neocon conspiracy to conquer the world and destroy the environment. Once he's silenced all opposition, Bush will use napalm against every national park on the planet. Then he will use a nuke to rupture Saudi Arabian oil reserves, let the oil spill out onto the oceans, and light it up, filling the atmosphere with smoke and killing all ocean life.

Glad you reminded me :D I almost forgot!

Not THAT far from the truth...

What do you mean with suddenly? Everyone knows Berlusconi is in the US's backpocket.

If anything, he's in Chirac's back-pocket. Your tinfoil is showing, dude.

I've got a question. If she was on the back floor of the car being covered by the other agent, how the FUCK would she be able to deduce the speed of the car?

I remember reading somewhere that she said at one point something like "the driver was losing control because the car was going so fast."

Not THAT far from the truth...

Shut the hell up, you damn hippy.

Anyways, this is entirely the driver's fault. He ignored everything that was told of him. Thus, he deserved to be shot at.

And plus, you damn anti-American scum from across the pond can go to hell. You don't know what the hell you're talking about, so go to hell. You don't even live here, so you have no right to speak as if you're superior to us. If you are superior, like I know you're going to claim you are, why did we beat your asses in two separate wars?

[censored... think of the children!]
.....

.....

Censor me all you want, but you know it's the truth.

I personally think that the incident was an accident. I disagree strongly with anyone who thinks it was intentional, or that it was caused by "trigger happy" soldiers. They were doing their jobs, and circumstance dealt them an unfortunate turn.

I don't see the need to be insulting and hostile. I can get my point accross perfectly well without being rude.

Sure. On the recieving end of the "friendly" Americans.

There have been a couple incedents where Americans were on the recieving end of allied countries "friendly fire."

There have been a couple incedents where Americans were on the recieving end of allied countries "friendly fire."
Despite the fact that America usually represents an overwhelming proportion of the military presence. If any other country had as much equipment and as many men in the field as we do, they would have friendly fire incidents too, believe it or not.

There have been a couple incedents where Americans were on the recieving end of allied countries "friendly fire."
So? Is that gonna excuse them of butchering their foreign legionairs?

I remember reading somewhere that she said at one point something like "the driver was losing control because the car was going so fast."

she said earlier they laughed about how ironic it would be if, after being ransomed away from muslim terrorists, they got in a car accident because they were going so fast

she later said that at no point were they ever going over 20 mph

"US clears coldblooded killers in Sgrena shooting"

that is a ridiculous title

coldblooded implies pre-meditation, did the soldiers pre-meditate that car speeding down the road? did the soldiers pre-meditate the driver ignoring the warning shots? was there any way they could even know who was in the car?

So? Is that gonna excuse them of butchering their foreign legionairs?
Legionaires have been obsolete since oh.. 750 AD.

If we were butchering foreign troops in Iraq and elsewhere, there wouldn't be many survivors.

Legionaires have been obsolete since oh.. 750 AD.
It was a refference to the French foreign legion. :rolleyes:

If we were butchering foreign troops in Iraq and elsewhere, there wouldn't be many survivors.
They don't want to make it to obviouse.

she said earlier they laughed about how ironic it would be if, after being ransomed away from muslim terrorists, they got in a car accident because they were going so fast

she later said that at no point were they ever going over 20 mph

umm,that isn't exactly a consistant statement is it?

They don't want to make it to obviouse.
You really think that the US military is secretly intentionally attacking our allies???

We've had to plead on our knees to get the limited international support we have now. Why the hell would we squander it by attacking our allied forces?!?!?!?!?!

You really think that the US military is secretly intentionally attacking our allies???

We've had to plead on our knees to get the limited international support we have now. Why the hell would we squander it by attacking our allied forces?!?!?!?!?!
Killing training for your soldiers. The US foreign legionairs tend to be less alert when they are with their US "allies".

You really think that the US military is secretly intentionally attacking our allies???

We've had to plead on our knees to get the limited international support we have now. Why the hell would we squander it by attacking our allied forces?!?!?!?!?!
Killing training for your soldiers. The US foreign legionairs tend to be less alert when they are with their US "allies".

Killing training for your soldiers. The US foreign legionairs tend to be less alert when they are with their US "allies".
Ah... real life training with for our soldiers... :sniper: :rolleyes:

As if the millions we spend on our extensive training wasn't enough already.

Er that wouldn't be all that great training, shooting at people who won't shoot back.

By the way, exactly where did you get this theory from?

Ah... real life training with for our soldiers... :sniper: :rolleyes:

As if the millions we spend on our extensive training wasn't enough already.

Er that wouldn't be all that great training, shooting at people who won't shoot back.
It's not about simply training to shoot a gun. It's about learning to kill another person. To numb the US soldiers sense of right and wrong. So allied soldiers, who are supposed to be on your side, are the perfect target practises. If you can kill a soldier who was send there to have your back without remorse you are US army material.

By the way, exactly where did you get this theory from?
It's the only logical conclusion as to why the US army has so many 'friendly fire' 'accidents'.

umm,that isn't exactly a consistant statement is it?

not at all, the woman has a stated political agenda against the war and I believe she is trying to use this incedent to further that agenda

It's not about simply training to shoot a gun. It's about learning to kill another person. To numb the US soldiers sense of right and wrong. So allied soldiers, who are supposed to be on your side, are the perfect target practises. If you can kill a soldier who was send there to have your back without remorse you are US army material.

says who? it is about numbing you to death but not right and wrong

It's the only logical conclusion as to why the US army has so many 'friendly fire' 'accidents'.

or..........you know....................BECAUSE WE HAVE 12 TIMES THE NUMBER OF TROOPS ON THE GROUND OF EVERY OTHER ALLIED COUNRTY

Killing training for your soldiers. The US foreign legionairs tend to be less alert when they are with their US "allies".

ok, that's a pretty nonsensical statement.... the US has the most extensive training establishment in the world, in fact, a German advanced training jet fighter squadron is based at Holloman AFB in New Mexico to use American training space as there are vast stretches of North America where sonic booms are allowed (not the case in Europe obviously because of density of population)

http://www.holloman.af.mil/sunburst/2005/04April/April15web.pdf
(German Air Force volley ball team beats an USAF team)

http://www.holloman.af.mil/49fw/index.html
(49th Fighter Wing provides support to Luftwaffe)

the shooting was just one of those tragedies of war that are inevitable in a war

American troops don't need "practice" in killing people... they have been killing bad guys of various types since Afghanistan in 1991.. practice we have lots of

says who? it is about numbing you to death but not right and wrong
It's about numbing you to kill without any remorse. And killing an ally is the ultimate test.



or..........you know....................BECAUSE WE HAVE 12 TIMES THE NUMBER OF TROOPS ON THE GROUND OF EVERY OTHER ALLIED COUNRTY
Oh. I see. You kill so many allies because you have 12 times more troops on the ground then the others.

It's about numbing you to kill without any remorse. And killing an ally is the ultimate test.......Oh. I see. You kill so many allies because you have 12 times more troops on the ground then the others.

even for you Von Witzleben, thats a pretty outlandish statement, and completely unsupported by even the tiniest shred of evidence.... can you in any way shape or form back up your rhetoric with any kind of fact?

even for you Von Witzleben, thats a pretty outlandish statement, and completely unsupported by even the tiniest shred of evidence.... can you in any way shape or form back up your rhetoric with any kind of fact?
Of course not. It's not like your president is gonna announce the new training methods on national TV. Not even Tony Blair would continue to lick your heels. Although.........
But can you disprove it?

B-S.

It wouldn´t be a problem at all if the "beacon of freedom and liberty" (insert laughter here) called the US of A wouldn´t have turned so paranoid that they want to control everyone and spy on everyone.

That's funny. I was in databases in London, Berlin and Rome prior to 9/11. Come's with the territory when visiting Europe, I guess. Maybe that's just for Nuke train US military members. Nuclear power, that is. Not nuclear arms.

Of course not. It's not like your president is gonna announce the new training methods on national TV. Not even Tony Blair would continue to lick your heels. Although.........
But can you disprove it?

ah.. the conspiracy theory raises its head.... but the burden of proof when making a charge rests on the person bringing the charge in all Western Justice systems

otherwise its considered slander (even more so in European nations, the US is more relaxed about silly charges and ignoring them)

care to rebutt my statement about the Luftwaffe training the US?

It's about numbing you to kill without any remorse. And killing an ally is the ultimate test.

a test we have no reason to pass. this is the US military, not fight club, we have no reason for the savage animalistic violence your talking about

Oh. I see. You kill so many allies because you have 12 times more troops on the ground then the others.

no, friendly fire is a cost of war just like vehical accidents or disease. since we're got more men on the ground it only makes sense that we'd suffer more of these casualties

Of course not. It's not like your president is gonna announce the new training methods on national TV. Not even Tony Blair would continue to lick your heels. Although.........
But can you disprove it?
The Abu Ghraib story broke. The video of the marine shooting the wounded insurgent was all over the news. Regardless of whether we did, there were all kinds of stories about napalm and white phoshporus being used in Fallujah. Now even speculation that we target journalists.

WORD GETS OUT! Regardless of how badly Bush and his cronies want to keep it quiet.

Never once have I heared anyone aside from Von Witzenblotzen claim that we intentionally target and kill allied forces as some type of bizzare "training".

Besides, there haven't been enough incidents to have "trained" any significant amount of troops.

ah.. the conspiracy theory raises its head.... but the burden of proof when making a charge rests on the person bringing the charge in all Western Justice systems

otherwise its considered slander (even more so in European nations, the US is more relaxed about silly charges and ignoring them)
This isn't a courtroom.

care to rebutt my statement about the Luftwaffe training the US?
Yes. What exactly did you do in Afghanistan in 1991?
American troops don't need "practice" in killing people... they have been killing bad guys of various types since Afghanistan in 1991.. practice we have lots of
Oh. And you don't seem to get it. It's not about how to kill. As in simply pull a trigger. It's to teach the individual merc to kill without remorse.

Interesting Article from the Sydney Morning Herald (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/07/1049567623996.html)

"March 24: Two British soldiers are killed when their tank is mistakenly targeted by another British tank in southern Iraq. "
Brits make mistakes too!

"A small number of incidents involved Romanian and Bulgarian troops opening fire."
So do Bulgarians

link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1517327,00.html)

And to Von Witzenblotzen: "April 2: An F-18 US fighter jet is downed, probably by a US Patriot missile. The pilot is reported missing.

April 3: A US serviceman mistaken for an Iraqi soldier is shot dead by his own troops in central Iraq. "

Why would we target our own troops? Maybe friendly fire incidents ARE accidental after all...

a test we have no reason to pass. this is the US military, not fight club
Aside from the anarchistic aspects of fight club what is the difference?



no, friendly fire is a cost of war just like vehical accidents or disease. since we're got more men on the ground it only makes sense that we'd suffer more of these casualties
Well. Then it's kinda strange that there is no reasonable amount of casualties of 'friendly' fire among the US.

Well. Then it's kinda strange that there is no reasonable amount of casualties of 'friendly' fire among the US.
You might want to look at my last post. And those were just 2 examples of US-on-US friendly fire from the first MONTH of the war.

Besides, there haven't been enough incidents to have "trained" any significant amount of troops.
But enough for the 'special' special forces.

Aside from the anarchistic aspects of fight club what is the difference?

violence for the sake of violence vs. violence for the sake of peace

Well. Then it's kinda strange that there is no reasonable amount of casualties of 'friendly' fire among the US.

or you know.............no there have been more than a few American casualties because of this

And to Von Witzenblotzen: "April 2: An F-18 US fighter jet is downed, probably by a US Patriot missile. The pilot is reported missing.

April 3: A US serviceman mistaken for an Iraqi soldier is shot dead by his own troops in central Iraq. "

Why would we target our own troops? Maybe friendly fire incidents ARE accidental after all...
Those probably were accidents.

But enough for the 'special' special forces.

what for?

Those probably were accidents.

thats why we call them friendly fire accidents

way to be quick on the uptake chief

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A U.S. military investigation has cleared American troops of any wrongdoing in the shooting death last month of an Italian security agent in Baghdad, according to a senior Pentagon official.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/04/25/iraq.italian.decision/index.html

Is anyone realy suprised by this?

Nay.

violence for the sake of violence vs. violence for the sake of peace
LMAO!!!! This is gold!!! I'll put it in my sig.



or you know.............no there have been more than a few American casualties because of this
Very doubtfull.

This isn't a courtroom. .

true, however, I assumed it was a debate, and in a debate you use evidence...

otherwise you are simply mouthing off


Yes. What exactly did you do in Afghanistan in 1991? .

nothing, however, I was nearly 40 at the time and they don't take people my age in the military. However, my son felt strongly enough about the situation to enlist in the Marine Corps in spite of my trying to talk him out of it. Whats your point (and do you have one?)

Oh. And you don't seem to get it. It's not about how to kill. As in simply pull a trigger. It's to teach the individual merc to kill without remorse.

thats a silly statement on so many levels.... as is the characterization of US service men and women as mercs. So does that mean any one who volunteers for German military service, or chooses to make it a career is a merc too?

There are Mercs in Iraq, no question about it... they are generally referred to as contractors, and they get paid a hell of a lot more money than service personnel and are hired by the various corporations doing business there as security guards. They seem to get killed regularly too (burned up in a car for example, killed in a helicopter shoot down to cite to examples of note)

Very doubtfull.

so what? your just dismissing those news sources brought up before? you think we, the british, romanian and more or less every other member of the coalition have conspired to what end exactly?

true, however, I assumed it was a debate, and in a debate you use evidence...

otherwise you are simply mouthing off

I already said I have no proof as in White House press releases or whatever for this.


nothing, however, I was nearly 40 at the time and they don't take people my age in the military. However, my son felt strongly enough about the situation to enlist in the Marine Corps in spite of my trying to talk him out of it. Whats your point (and do you have one?)

I didn't mean you personally. But what was the US doing in Afghanistan in 1991?


thats a silly statement on so many levels.... as is the characterization of US service men and women as mercs. So does that mean any one who volunteers for German military service, or chooses to make it a career is a merc too?
No. Just the mercenaries of imperialism. A cool new name for them I picked up on another forum. Otherwise known as the US army.

so what? your just dismissing those news sources brought up before? you think we, the british, romanian and more or less every other member of the coalition have conspired to what end exactly?
No. The Romanians, British etc...are beeing manipulated by the US.

No. Just the mercenaries of imperialism. A cool new name for them I picked up on another forum. Otherwise known as the US army.

but thats moronic when mercenaries already is a term used to describe people employed in the same area

No. The Romanians, British etc...are beeing manipulated by the US.

............................to what end? shooting journalists and canceling Christmas?

but thats moronic when mercenaries already is a term used to describe people employed in the same area
It's still a cool name.

At least 18 coalition soldiers have died from friendly fire.

9 of them were US soldiers.

http://icasualties.org/oif/Stats.aspx


We have lost at least one multi-million dollar jet to our own patriot missiles.

April 2: An F-18 US fighter jet is downed, probably by a US Patriot missile. The pilot is reported missing.

March 27: 37 US Marines are injured when US troops mistakenly fire at each other near the southern city of Nasiriyah.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/07/1049567623996.html

Do you still think we target our allies' forces to train?

Why not just massacre innocent villagers? That would accomplish the same thing and not piss off our often reluctant allies. Your theory makes no sense at all.

Do you still think we target our allies' forces to train?

Why not just massacre innocent villagers? That would accomplish the same thing and not piss off our often reluctant allies. Your theory makes no sense at all.
It does make sense. Killing off allies without thinking twice about it will stop making them think twice if they are ordered to start shooting civilians.

Do you still think we target our allies' forces to train?

Why not just massacre innocent villagers? That would accomplish the same thing and not piss off our often reluctant allies. Your theory makes no sense at all.

better question - why kill those people at all?

is this part of our plot to do away with Christmas and kick puppies

why would the US government want to do this or train its troops to do this?

It's still a cool name.

and Leftist rhetoric that dates back to the 1960s and before (the French Leftists used it against the French government during the Indochina War and all kinds of Leftists used it against the US government during the Vietnam War)

doesn't make it remotely accurate though

It does make sense. Killing off allies without thinking twice about it will stop making them think twice if they are ordered to start shooting civilians.
But our allies would get pissed and leave. Italy won't last much longer. That's very counterproductive. We spent tons of time and energy trying to get a bunch of allies together for this war.

It's about time someone explained to you that the US doesn't go around massacring civilians and allies. We're not trigger happy freaks who want to go around shooting up the whole country for the hell of it. Our soldiers are people. They want to stay alive, make it home, and help Iraq become a stable country in the meantime. Any talk about us massacring civilians is slander and propaganda. Sure there are accidents, as YOU have conceded. Civilians die, but we try damned hard to avoid it.

The insurgents/terrorists on the other hand, blow up bombs in crowded streets and markets, killing dozens of civilians without a US military target in sight. They have a special penchant for targeting shia or kurdish weddings, funerals, and religions festivals. Take it from them; you don't need special training to be a murderer.

and Leftist rhetoric that dates back to the 1960s and before (the French Leftists used it against the French government during the Indochina War and all kinds of Leftists used it against the US government during the Vietnam War)

doesn't make it remotely accurate though
Nevertheless it's a cooler name then US army/soldiers.

But our allies would get pissed and leave. Italy won't last much longer. That's very counterproductive. We spent tons of time and energy trying to get a bunch of allies together for this war.
Thanks to puppets of the likes of Blair and Berlusconi and the German chancellor, unless you start a war during an election year, the mercenaries of imperialism won't run out of practise material.

It's about time someone explained to you that the US doesn't go around massacring civilians and allies. We're not trigger happy freaks who want to go around shooting up the whole country for the hell of it.
And still thats exactly what you do.
Our soldiers are people. They want to stay alive, make it home, and help Iraq become a stable country in the meantime.
If you say so. And Bush is a nice, compassionate man.
Any talk about us massacring civilians is slander and propaganda.
I didn't say anything about civilians getting massacred. Yet.
Sure there are accidents, as YOU have conceded.
Yes. In cases of US on US fire. Civilians die, but we try damned hard to avoid it.

The insurgents/terrorists on the other hand, blow up bombs in crowded streets and markets, killing dozens of civilians without a US military target in sight. They have a special penchant for targeting shia or kurdish weddings, funerals, and religions festivals. Take it from them; you don't need special training to be a murderer.
They are the puppets which the US uses to justify it's occupation of the oil fields.

Thanks to puppets of the likes of Blair and Berlusconi and the German chancellor, unless you start a war during an election year, the mercenaries of imperialism won't run out of practise material.
Oh, so now Schroder is in our pocket?!? Why the hell did he oppose the war in the Security Council?!?!?!?


They are the puppets which the US uses to justify it's occupation of the oil fields.
Holy shit!! This just gets better and better!

Do you have ANY idea what a political victory 'defeating' the insurgency would be?? 'Winning' the war would catapault Bush's opinion ratings sky-high. The troops could come home, US companies would be safe working in Iraq, and the international community would be taking back alot of things they said earlier.

If you seriously believe that the insurgents are puppets of the US, I see no reason to continue arguing with you.

Oh, so now Schroder is in our pocket?!? Why the hell did he oppose the war in the Security Council?!?!?!?

Like I said. Election year. Schröder put his own interests over that of his master for once.


Holy shit!! This just gets better and better!
I'm glad you think so.

Do you have ANY idea what a political victory 'defeating' the insurgency would be?? 'Winning' the war would catapault Bush's opinion ratings sky-high. The troops could come home, US companies would be safe working in Iraq, and the international community would be taking back alot of things they said earlier.
It's not just about Bush. It's about the US's continuing grip on vital resources. (PNAC) Bush is just a part in the machine.

If you seriously believe that the insurgents are puppets of the US, I see no reason to continue arguing with you.
Do what you will.

suddenly its clear... Von Witzleben believes there is a conspiracy at work here.... no matter the evidence that argues against his stand, and no matter the lack of evidence he has.

Its all merely rhetoric, his belief, and his assertions...he is a true believer... wrong, but a true believer.

The US troops involved in the incident killed an Italian security officer and shot up some what an Italian car. The fact that this was probably to the point of near certainity an unfortunate incident of war and possibly the result of poor judgement on the part of both the Italian security people and the US troops involved and not criminal poor judgement, just a bad decision but possibly the only available one based on the situation that they (both sides) knew.

You have no proof whatsoever Von Witzleben to prove your charges, which can be considered baseless. The Italians haven't even announced their verdict yet so their viewpoint is unknown. All we know is that the incident was witnessed by American and Italian personnel, one of whom is a civilian who recently was released from a very traumatic situation and who has a political bone to pick with the US in any case. In addition, eye witness accounts are notoriously unreliable, which is why most modern courts try to use other evidence as much as possible.

The witnesses will probably never agree in this situation, much like any other shooting. But the other evidence collected supports the US assertions that it was an accident.

And so there we are... the soldiers were NOT cold blooded killers, but simply soldiers doing the best they could.

Don't let Von Witzleben fool you... he is merely waxing rhetorically

All I'm wondering is why anyone would stoop to indulging a child who doesn't even believe in his own claims by treating him as an adult with logical claims who presents "they shute jurnalits for target practice LOL!" as a legitimate statement. Do what is done with jabbering children, ignore him. Why play his game and let him win by bothering to address his horse shit statements?

I like leading him into logic traps, and occasionally another idealogue joins in as well....

All I'm wondering is why anyone would stoop to indulging a child who doesn't even believe in his own claims by treating him as an adult with logical claims who presents "stoopid americans they shute jurnalits for target practice LOL!" as a legitimate opinion? Do what is done with jabbering children, ignore him. Why play his game and let him win by bothering to address his horse shit statements? He's not going to admit to his own idiocy, it's obvious he does not even know the meaning of the word objectivity. Let him and his inferiority complex disguised as disdain meander into the distance alone. His idiocy has obviously alienated him from the temporal world, why propagate his illness by remedying the symptoms of the disease which is the source of his miserable, transparently diverted self-loathing?

All I'm wondering is why anyone would stoop to indulging a child who doesn't even believe in his own claims by treating him as an adult with logical claims who presents "stoopid americans they shute jurnalits for target practice LOL!" as a legitimate opinion? Do what is done with jabbering children, ignore him. Why play his game and let him win by bothering to address his horse shit statements? He's not going to admit to his own idiocy, it's obvious he does not even know the meaning of the word objectivity. Let him and his inferiority complex disguised as disdain meander into the distance alone. His idiocy has obviously alienated him from the temporal world, why propagate his illness by remedying the symptoms of the disease which is the source of his miserable, transparently diverted self-loathing?

because he spreads misinformation.... and the only thing evil requires to triumph is for good men to stand aside.

I like leading him into logic traps, and occasionally another idealogue joins in as well....

How can one lead another person devoid of logic into logic traps? Why point out the inherent fallacies in the observations of a pre-pubescent, obtuse lout who misspells three letter words and shames himself with (I suspect) intentionally asinine statements? He recognizes 99% of the 100% horse shit he spouts for what it is, he plays games just to incite a response, trust me. He's playing you and making you (plural) look the fool for trying to out-debate something he doesn't even write with seriousness. Do what people do to him in his real life, let him play himself into a lonely corner of pathetic desperation; for his self-deception to heal, first he must recognize it. It is better to be hated in jest than to be ignored, so let him face the latter fate.

because he spreads misinformation.... and the only thing evil requires to triumph is for good men to stand aside.


The multiverse will not be enveloped in evil because some dildo sits on an internet forum shouting "LMAO ameercans stuupid imperalsts LOL!". Quite contrary, you (plural) hand him the victory because you do as he wants you to do. Have you ever noticed he tends to write in 4-7 word little snippets? He knows he can write a few ridiculous, inflammatory words and cause 10 responses to come back which are 10 times as long. That's the game he plays, it boggles me why people play the fool and take him seriously by trying to out argue intentional garbage. I suspect he is frustrated by a lack of power in real life, a lack of attention, so he tries to compensate his shortcomings by inducing responses which will dispute what he knows in his heart.

The multiverse will not be enveloped in evil because some dildo sits on an internet forum shouting "LMAO ameercans stuupid imperalsts LOL!". Quite contrary, you (plural) hand him the victory because you do as he wants you to do. Have you ever noticed he tends to write in 4-7 word little snippets? He knows he can write a few ridiculous, inflammatory words and cause 10 responses to come back which are 10 times as long. That's the game he plays, it boggles me why people play the fool and take him seriously by trying to out argue intentional garbage. I suspect he is frustrated by a lack of power in real life, a lack of attention, so he tries to compensate his shortcomings by inducing responses which will dispute what he knows in his heart.

true, he is acting like a troll

because he spreads misinformation.... and the only thing evil requires to triumph is for good men to stand aside.
Excactly. Thats why I don't just stand aside like all is well.

Killing training for your soldiers. The US foreign legionairs tend to be less alert when they are with their US "allies".


Possibly among the most moronic and biased utterances ever on NS. Assuredly in the top 10.

Congratulations!

The multiverse will not be enveloped in evil because some dildo sits on an internet forum shouting "LMAO ameercans stuupid imperalsts LOL!".
Can't say I ever wrote stuff like this dickhead.
Quite contrary, you (plural) hand him the victory because you do as he wants you to do. Have you ever noticed he tends to write in 4-7 word little snippets? He knows he can write a few ridiculous, inflammatory words and cause 10 responses to come back which are 10 times as long. That's the game he plays, it boggles me why people play the fool and take him seriously by trying to out argue intentional garbage. I suspect he is frustrated by a lack of power in real life, a lack of attention, so he tries to compensate his shortcomings by inducing responses which will dispute what he knows in his heart.
So if I would write shit like "Go USA. USA best country ever. Amuruca is good. Ameruricans are good." and other pro-US garbage that would be considerd realistic and intelligent by your standards? And where do I tend to write 4-7 word responses?

Congratulations!
Thanks.

Thanks.
Von, where do you get the idea that there are "foreign legionnaires" in the US military?

That's French, you know. Not US.

Von, where do you get the idea that there are "foreign legionnaires" in the US military?

That's French, you know. Not US.
Of course I know that. It is a refference to NATO. NATO troops who are send into a war by US ass licking politicians to defend America´s interests. And other non-NATO troops who are in the same situation.

Of course I know that. It is a refference to NATO. NATO troops who are send into a war by US ass licking politicians to defend America´s interests. And other non-NATO troops who are in the same situation.

Last I heard, the world was not run by the US, but by the G-8 and the multinationals. They own the US - and they own the EU - and they own NATO.

Take Daimler-Chrysler, for instance.

Is it a European company, or a US company?

Neither.

Is McDonalds really American, or is it something bigger than any nation now?

If you took the top 20 multinational corporations, would they have more money, a better debt ratio, and more clout than most major nations?

Are you still thinking that your vote (in whatever country you live in) has any real control over the multinationals?

Why hasn't the EU spanked Bill Gates properly yet?

Keep dreaming that nations and governments run the world. The triumph of capitalism is the domination of everything and everyone by multinational corporations.

Last I heard, the world was not run by the US, but by the G-8 and the multinationals. They own the US - and they own the EU - and they own NATO.
True. But as we could see in Iraq politics and business work together to achieve their goal. US control of the Iraqi oilfields in this case. The businesses are happy. And the US has secured resources for the next time.

True. But as we could see in Iraq politics and business work together to achieve their goal. US control of the Iraqi oilfields in this case. The businesses are happy. And the US has secured resources for the next time.


If we're now in control of those oil fields, I'd like to place an order. I'm running a bit low.

This thread has become far more than a discussion of the situation at an Iraqi checkpoint. It's degenerated into a "bash-and-defend" fight between indignant Americans and a conglomeration of angry Europeans. I'm setting up shop in the defend camp. The soldiers should not have shot. Everyone agrees on that fact. But what do you want done to them? Have them put to death? Jesus Christ, they're a bunch of 18 year olds in a desert with extremists driving exploding gasoline tankers at them. Friendly fire happens, it's a fact of war. If you don't like it, pull your forces out of Iraq and take your journalists too so they stop getting themselves kidnapped. It's our mess to solve. If you don't want to be there, LEAVE. And be a dick. Make fun of us. Call us murderers, fascists, and make some allusions to Hitler while you're at it, because we obviously exterminate Jews and "mud people" in our CIA concentration camps that you learn about on the Internet. But the cold hard fact of the matter is this: You can't do anything about it. At all. Firstly, because the UN or EU would argue too much to sanction us. Second...you're a poster on Nation States. Get over yourself.

The Italians have released their version of an investigation today. Of course it says the opposite thing of the Americans - as predicted. It's not in the news like Reuters or CNN yet, but I just saw it on our TV :)

Edit: BBC had it first :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4504855.stm

Italian report to query US claims

Italy says its report into the death of an Italian secret agent killed by US troops at a roadblock in Iraq differs greatly from the US version of events.

Rome has refused to back a recent US report which exonerated the soldiers involved in the 4 March shooting of Nicola Calipari.

Calipari was killed as he escorted hostage Giuliana Sgrena to freedom.

The Italian document reportedly accuses the US military of "tampering with the incident scene" and removing evidence.

Disputed circumstances

Observers say that following the report from the US military's investigation panel, relations between the two countries have deteriorated considerably.

The findings in the US report were heavily censored, with large blocks of the text blacked out when it was published.

However, a university student in Italy claims he was able to remove the censored parts using his computer and has passed a seemingly full US report to Italy's media.

Correspondents say the Italian report will reply point by point to the Pentagon inquiry, which recommended that no disciplinary action be taken against the soldiers involved in Calipari's death.

Warning shots

The Italian foreign ministry said it would release its findings at 1600 GMT on Monday, adding that it would show clear differences from the US conclusions of the joint inquiry.

"Regardless of the fact that the two parties have made analogous evaluations on many points, the main aspects on which it has not been possible to reach agreement concern, above all, the dynamic of the incident, rules of engagement and co-ordination with the competent authorities in Iraq," a statement said.

Italy says at least three troops opened fire on the car taking Ms Sgrena to Baghdad airport with Calipari and a second Italian intelligent agent.

Italian newspapers say an Italian reconstruction of events show the US authorities were informed of the operation to release Ms Sgrena several hours before the shooting, though the US denies that.

Reports say the experts who drafted the Italian report will also claim that a three-second warning given by the US troops was not enough time for the car to stop.

The US version says the Italians ignored several warnings and did not slow down before they were shot at.

Details of personnel

A Greek medical student at Bologna university surfing the web on Sunday found he could restore censored portions of the 40-page US report with a couple of clicks of his computer mouse.

He passed the details to Italian newspapers, which put out the full text on their websites.

The apparently full text contains a few details that US authorities would have preferred to remain secret - such as the names and ranks of the US military personnel involved in Calipari's death - the BBC's David Willey says from Rome.

Our correspondent adds that the censored material also includes embarrassing details about communication failures and reveals the rules of engagement at checkpoints.

The US invited two Italians to join in their inquiry, but the Italian representatives protested at what they claimed was lack of objectivity in presenting the evidence and returned to Rome.

the story is also showing up on Yahoo...

personally I am waiting for the Italian report as so far we only know that they disagree with the American report.

the Yahoo story mentions that apparently the online version failed to hide personal identifiers of the troops involved (geez what a screw up that was) while the report handed out to the press did black out that information.

Ein Deutscher']The Italians have released their version of an investigation today. Of course it says the opposite thing of the Americans - as predicted. It's not in the news like Reuters or CNN yet, but I just saw it on our TV :)

Edit: BBC had it first :)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4504855.stm

So... they're pissed off because it was a clusterfuck? Clusterfucks happen in a war-zone. A squad of American troops put down at a checkpoint, don't get good intel, and react the way they have been trained to react given the level of information they had at the time. (Car approaching, won't slow down, won't stop-we've seen this before. At 45 yards (Less than fifty, just the edge of Claymore mine range and well within the blast-radius of a car-bomb) they open fire.)

The grunts did what they were supposed to do in the circumstances as they understood them. Seems to me the Italians ought to be asking why the OIC hadn't briefed his men before deploying them, or (gasp!!) why their own security people hadn't either coordinated, or bothered to coordinate with the checkpoint details to make sure the car passed without difficulty.

Either way, the fault sits a lot higher than the grunts-on-the-ground.

I want to see American heads roll for this murder (well not quite, but at least some punishment of some sort). How suitable that the US still has the death penalty *snicker*

Ein Deutscher']I want to see American heads roll for this murder (well not quite, but at least some punishment of some sort). How suitable that the US still has the death penalty *snicker*


Dont worry with " a few clicks" of my mouse, I will be able to protect any Americian heads.

Ein Deutscher']I want to see American heads roll for this murder (well not quite, but at least some punishment of some sort). How suitable that the US still has the death penalty *snicker*
The only US soldier up for execution is ex-Sgt Akbar. But he wasn't involved in the Italian screwup.

The only US soldier up for execution is ex-Sgt Akbar. But he wasn't involved in the Italian screwup.


Maybe the Italians will investigate him and get him off the hook.

Ein Deutscher']I want to see American heads roll for this murder (well not quite, but at least some punishment of some sort). How suitable that the US still has the death penalty *snicker*

[disgusted sigh] You're sure you aren't from Berkeley California, or Central Seattle? You just want to see Americans die, why or how is of little consequence. :rolleyes:

[disgusted sigh] You're sure you aren't from Berkeley California, or Central Seattle? You just want to see Americans die, why or how is of little consequence. :rolleyes:


Yes. It seems he isnt really interested in justice, more, he would like to see Americans be punished and humiliated.

Maybe the Italians will investigate him and get him off the hook.
Hard to do. Akbar basically admitted the whole thing, as did his defense lawyers.

Hard to do. Akbar basically admitted the whole thing, as did his defense lawyers.

Thus making him a hero in some European eyes (and many eyes in Berkeley, Central Seattle, Olympia, Portland...)

Hard to do. Akbar basically admitted the whole thing, as did his defense lawyers.


Dont we need reams of proof, video/audio tape and satellite images and third parties twice removed as witnesses?
We could be manipulating him and his lawyers. Maybe the grenades didnt fit his hands...

ok, the Italian report is now out, and they basically call it an accident triggered by inexperience and fatigue...


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050502/ap_on_re_eu/italy_us_iraq

so much for the cold blooded murder assertion

I'm sure many people kill others -accidently or not - due to fatigue and inexperience. They still are punished - if not for murder, at least for man slaughter. I'd expect no less to happen to these soldiers. Especially soldiers should be trained enough to not trigger-happily shoot at whatever moves. US army boys were in the news repeatedly with such incidents.

Dont we need reams of proof, video/audio tape and satellite images and third parties twice removed as witnesses?
We could be manipulating him and his lawyers. Maybe the grenades didnt fit his hands...

No, but I bet a grenade would fit in his rectum. Without the pin and spoon, of course.

Can't say I ever wrote stuff like this dickhead.

So if I would write shit like "Go USA. USA best country ever. Amuruca is good. Ameruricans are good." and other pro-US garbage that would be considerd realistic and intelligent by your standards? And where do I tend to write 4-7 word responses?

1. Sure I can...I just did. In so many words, it's all I've ever seen you repeat dozens of times with the same, tired, crusty old lines, no support, just simple minded drivel trying to contradict people with nothing but pathetic one-liners. Your profanity toward me only shows you have already lost by becoming incensed at my words and needlessly proving the very lack of erudition which has long been readily apparent.

2. Fuck no. A blind adherent to any cause, including the one you mocked, is an inherent sheep and idiot. You convict yourself by writing the same line in reverse. Take your quote, turn it around, and you have "Boo USA. USA worst country ever. Amuruca is bad. Americans are bad." It's the same line of reasoning that you criticize our blind patriots for, yet feel the opposite end of extremism is perfectly acceptable simply because it's the one you've chosen to blind yourself with, and the one your media and professors tell you to believe in. Believe it or not, objectivity is possible, a completely different viewpoint on every issue worth forming an opinion on, based on empirical observation of facts without bias, and forming an opinion after gathering the most impartial data possible. Instead, you shame yourself by acting, as do millions of other faceless partisans, like a hack with prognosticable, pre-packaged opinions on every issue. Rather than viewing issues and forming an individual viewpoint on each one, you intentionally put on lenses which distort the way you will view the issue to a certain, predetermined perspective. Every school raising, every car bombing, every single event that takes place becomes the result of horned Americans bathing in infant blood with cowboy hats shooting indiscriminately in order to possess more oil, because you view it as you WANT to, not as your mind tells you to; in an subjective, rather than objective manner. It's your prerogative to do so, to be an obnoxious twit if you so wish, but if you ever want to converse with and earn the intellectual respect of respectable, erudite individuals of maturity and substance, you will have to form your own opinions, and not unwittingly become a pawn of populist demagoguery, in the same manner that blind worshippers of the American flag do. Our country is not perfect, our government makes a lot of mistakes, but one must look at the good, the neutral, the bad, the future, the past, the present, with an unbiased lens and present an adult opinion based on facts and not one's own obtuseness if one ever wants to be viewed as anything but a childish hack.

3. You appear to do nothing but. I've never, out of the 1-200 responses I've seen of yours, seen an opinion supported with any credible, or even incredible support, merely little sarcastic jabs with no effect whatsoever but to incite people foolish enough to fall for your bait. Sorry if I had to call you on your bullshit, I see right through it. Just see if you can act a little more civil and impartial in your rhetoric, unless you have no problem with becoming exactly what you pretend to oppose, another blind extremist relegating yourself to mindless obscurity, seeing everything in the predetermined light you have brainwashed and allowed yourself to be brainwashed into. Being a permanent partisan fanatic on one side, while criticizing others for being partisan fanatics on the other side....surely even you now see the err of your ways.