NationStates Jolt Archive

If anyone cares I just found this ... and this is why I am against organized faith (personaly)not ment to say why ALL faith is bad but why I cant abide by it

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200207/10_horwichj_stjoes-m/

Tom was my priest (this was written in 02 so it is not complete)
What the story does not add is the three class members of my grade who were added to the list (including me)of the past abuse (no articles that I can find covering this it was covered up in a legal battle till january this year or so)

I was in the St. Joseph Lab (catholic elemantary) school

(also on a side note they made him my 4th grade sex ed teacher for that section ... ironic is it not)

They also think there was a 4th kid but he never came forward (kris klare (spelling may be off)) ... he killed himself after elementery school (shotgun to the mouth)


I do not mean this to go into a rant on anyones part ... more a trying to share where my viewpoint comes from sometimes. I dont mean this to prove any religion bad but more to explain so that if some people are confused why anger comes sometimes they know where it is coming from

I have fought tooth and nail even to get recognized (the only reason for that is because the years of thearapy it took had bankrupted my parents retirement)

I have major issues with the abbot as well as bishop john kenny (they told me I would go to hell (only after my parents were made homeless) if anyone found out about what happened between students and tom)

Lets just say that was the starting point to my road to freedom (or loss of faith whichever)

Anways take care all sorry for the bit of a rant I just ran across the article

If anyone cares I just found this ... and this is why I am against organized faith (personaly)not ment to say why ALL faith is bad but why I cant abide by it

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200207/10_horwichj_stjoes-m/

Tom was my priest (this was written in 02 so it is not complete)
What the story does not add is the three class members of my grade who were added to the list (including me)of the past abuse (no articles that I can find covering this it was covered up in a legal battle till january this year or so)

I was in the St. Joseph Lab (catholic elemantary) school

(also on a side note they made him my 4th grade sex ed teacher for that section ... ironic is it not)

They also think there was a 4th kid but he never came forward (kris klare (spelling may be off)) ... he killed himself after elementery school (shotgun to the mouth)


I do not mean this to go into a rant on anyones part ... more a trying to share where my viewpoint comes from sometimes. I dont mean this to prove any religion bad but more to explain so that if some people are confused why anger comes sometimes they know where it is coming from

I have fought tooth and nail even to get recognized (the only reason for that is because the years of thearapy it took had bankrupted my parents retirement)

I have major issues with the abbot as well as bishop john kenny (they told me I would go to hell (only after my parents were made homeless) if anyone found out about what happened between students and tom)

Lets just say that was the starting point to my road to freedom (or loss of faith whichever)

Anways take care all sorry for the bit of a rant I just ran across the article

what does this have to do with organized faith????

what does this have to do with organized faith????
The organized coverup I have seen the hypocracy and massive abuse possible by thoes who are by institution "gods men"

And people wonder why I don't like the catholic religion....

Lots of less personal reasons are behind me distrust of organized religion. It's just too easy to manipulate people with it. The Catholic Church is just another lovely example.

Lots of less personal reasons are behind me distrust of organized religion. It's just too easy to manipulate people with it. The Catholic Church is just another lovely example.
Yes thats exactly it (dont think I made that clear in my stupid rant) the manipulation and the excess of power of giving people un questionable (pope) athority

Guess what I found

http://www.employees.csbsju.edu/tgillespie/

his website (how ironic how big of part his "aviation" section is ... at least with us that is how he used to lure us in ... he would give "special" alter boys rides in his airplane)

hey Upwardthrust, sorry you had to go through all that. i cant possibly imagine what you went through. this is, yet another reason to reveal what goes on in this supposedly "godly" religion. another reason to leave the idea of god, in my opinion... personally i have problems with god, which you already know ;) , but when i see or hear things like this it just makes me want to curse god for letting it happen...id rather believe in no god at all than a god that sits on his thumbs...sorry for my rant but i cant always keep my trap shut...

hey Upwardthrust, sorry you had to go through all that. i cant possibly imagine what you went through. this is, yet another reason to reveal what goes on in this supposedly "godly" religion. another reason to leave the idea of god, in my opinion... personally i have problems with god, which you already know ;) , but when i see or hear things like this it just makes me want to curse god for letting it happen...id rather believe in no god at all than a god that sits on his thumbs...sorry for my rant but i cant always keep my trap shut...
Its fine we just got to remember not to take it out on the faith ... I just find the organization illogical and very abusable

hey Upwardthrust, sorry you had to go through all that. i cant possibly imagine what you went through. this is, yet another reason to reveal what goes on in this supposedly "godly" religion. another reason to leave the idea of god, in my opinion... personally i have problems with god, which you already know ;) , but when i see or hear things like this it just makes me want to curse god for letting it happen...id rather believe in no god at all than a god that sits on his thumbs...sorry for my rant but i cant always keep my trap shut...Sorry to hear about your pain and suffering Upwardthrust. but I hope you don't hold it against God. after all it was the (ahem) flesh of Man that failed. and While I am a Christian I am not Catholic, the fact remains that the Church chooses to "reassign" the Priests is a great stain on an Institution that once stood for something Grand.

and Secluded Islands... Again I ask that you do not only concentrate on those examples and pin them on all Christian Religions.

It's like saying all Muslims are Crazy Murdering Bastards because of what Bin Lauden did in the name of Islam.

Sorry to hear about your pain and suffering Upwardthrust. but I hope you don't hold it against God. after all it was the (ahem) flesh of Man that failed. and While I am a Christian I am not Catholic, the fact remains that the Church chooses to "reassign" the Priests is a great stain on an Institution that once stood for something Grand.

and Secluded Islands... Again I ask that you do not only concentrate on those examples and pin them on all Christian Religions.

It's like saying all Muslims are Crazy Murdering Bastards because of what Bin Lauden did in the name of Islam.
No as my post before yours says I try not to take it out on the faith but it deffinatly starts me off with a handycap (I did not actualy loose my faith in god till well after my faith in the organization)

Sorry to bring it up again but guess what I found

http://www.employees.csbsju.edu/tgillespie/cessna182.html

(The bottom left picture) the sadistic bastard left a picture of when he was at my HOUSE (that is my shoreline) on his website)

Well:

I had heard that the new Pope was going to be a force for the good on this matter... the American Bishops said that he was going to be instrumental in dealing with the sexual abuse scandals that have plagued the church.

However, trying to find a link to back that up, I unearthed a few things that seem to indicate the exact opposite... Perhaps the Bishops meant he would be "instrumental in dealing with the sexual abuse scandals" by covering them up?

Articles that worried me:


Pope Benedict XVI faced claims on Saturday night that he had "obstructed justice" after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex-abuse claims be carried out in secret.

The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.

It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected as John Paul II's successor last week.

Lawyers acting for abuse victims claim it was designed to prevent the allegations from becoming public knowledge or being investigated by the police. They accuse Ratzinger of committing a "clear obstruction of justice".

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx?articleid=235949&area=/breaking_news/breaking_news__international_news/


Some have questioned whether the new pope betrayed any pro-Nazi sentiment during his teenage years in Germany during World War II.

In his memoirs, he wrote of being enrolled in Hitler's Nazi youth movement against his will when he was 14 in 1941, when membership was compulsory. He says he was soon let out because of his studies for the priesthood.

Two years later, he was drafted into a Nazi anti-aircraft unit as a helper, a common fate for teenage boys too young to be soldiers. Enrolled as a soldier at 18, in the last months of the war, he barely finished basic training.


http://www.winktv.com/x466.xml?URL=http://localhost/APWIREFEED/d89im9c00.xml

Sorry to bring it up again but guess what I found

http://www.employees.csbsju.edu/tgillespie/cessna182.html

(The bottom left picture) the sadistic bastard left a picture of when he was at my HOUSE (that is my shoreline) on his website)
UT, that really sucks. I'm not surprised you're extremely wary of organised religion after what religious professionals have put you through.
Do you still pray to God?

The organized coverup I have seen the hypocracy and massive abuse possible by thoes who are by institution "gods men"
I agree with the sentiment expressed by Diaga Ceilteach Impire. Regardless of "cover up," this has more to do with individuals and less to do with the religion.

That is horrible, UpwardThrust. I'm very sorry to hear what those miserable-excuses-for-human-beings did to you and the others. I'm especially horrified about the one who committed suicide - no doubt this had a great deal to do with it.

Regardless of what anyone says, I do see this as an example of the kind of harm organized religion can do to society and why I hope that it meets its natural end as quickly as possible. But that's just me...

I agree with the sentiment expressed by Diaga Ceilteach Impire. Regardless of "cover up," this has more to do with individuals and less to do with the religion.

It seems to me when any organization makes efforts to cover up crimes then it is not just about the individual. This was an organized prolonged cover up by those who should have been protecting minors instead of priests. I am a former Catholic myself and my words are not meant to condemn religion or the Catholic Church, but is very clear that the Church was protecting its "image" and preists not the children who were abused.

Religion is meant to a source of unity not a hiding place for vipers.

O concourse of monks! The fragrances of the All-Merciful have wafted over all creation. Happy the man that hath forsaken his desires, and taken fast hold of guidance.

(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 58)

UT, that really sucks. I'm not surprised you're extremely wary of organised religion after what religious professionals have put you through.
Do you still pray to God?
No but I lost that for different reasons later on in life

I agree with the sentiment expressed by Diaga Ceilteach Impire. Regardless of "cover up," this has more to do with individuals and less to do with the religion.
But its the abuse of the organization itself

Yes individual actions but the institution backed them to the hilt

But its the abuse of the organization itself

Yes individual actions but the institution backed them to the hilt

I agree. What happened to you is a symptom of a organization that has serious problems, has lost its moral compass. It is difficult to imagine how they the Bishops and others could have made worse decisions. If this had not been a religious organization those who did the acts and those who cover it up would have been put in jail. Hopefully, the Catholic Church and others have learned from the past.

I agree. What happened to you is a symptom of a organization that has serious problems, has lost its moral compass. It is difficult to imagine how they the Bishops and others could have made worse decisions. If this had not been a religious organization those who did the acts and those who cover it up would have been put in jail. Hopefully, the Catholic Church and others have learned from the past.
People in general tend to have short memories ... the organization will do its best for awhile but suposedly iterpreting for GOD really alows for a lot of power and a lot of abuse to that power without many checks

People in general tend to have short memories ... the organization will do its best for awhile but suposedly iterpreting for GOD really alows for a lot of power and a lot of abuse to that power without many checks

I hope you don't think I am just trying to promote my religion here, but the Bahai Faith has no clegry, there is system that prevents power from being held by a few unelected individuals. It is not without individuals who are imperfect.

I hope you don't think I am just trying to promote my religion here, but the Bahai Faith has no clegry, there is system that prevents power from being held by a few unelected individuals. It is not without individuals who are imperfect.
Deffinatly an advantage ... though I am not the faith type :D

Deffinatly an advantage ... though I am not the faith type :D


I was on the phone talking to my friend from NDakota. He is Lakota Indian and lives up in Turtle Mt. I vist him most every month and go in the sweat lodge. He is Baha'i too. I am not trying to convince you of anything here but give my friend Jerry Wetterland from St Joe and ask him to take you to lunch. Or, go online and read a little bit. I promise you you will be impressed.

I was on the phone talking to my friend from NDakota. He is Lakota Indian and lives up in Turtle Mt. I vist him most every month and go in the sweat lodge. He is Baha'i too. I am not trying to convince you of anything here but give my friend Jerry Wetterland from St Joe and ask him to take you to lunch. Or, go online and read a little bit. I promise you you will be impressed.
Thank you but no thank you I can not make the leap (not to mention the time to go to lunch) :) but thank you

Thank you but no thank you I can not make the leap (not to mention the time to go to lunch) :) but thank you

First pancakes now lunch you are going to give me a complex. ;)

First pancakes now lunch you are going to give me a complex. ;)
:D will take u up on thoes pancakes another time :D

It seems to me when any organization makes efforts to cover up crimes then it is not just about the individual. This was an organized prolonged cover up by those who should have been protecting minors instead of priests.

Exactly. One priest, or a dozen, with sordid acts to hide - are individual sinners... not a problem in the 'faith' itself.

But, one priest, or a dozen, with sordid acts to hide - and the 'faith' protects them from the proper repurcussions for their evil acts... that's a problem with the whole 'faith'.

I hate to burst the bubble of those would-be Catholic bashers who currently reside in other churches, but many Christian Religions have problems with leaders having histories of being sex offenders. As a counselor/re-education administrator, I have direct contact with many of those classified by the law as offenders, and many of whom are members/clergy in a faith other than the Catholic Church.

I hate to burst the bubble of those would-be Catholic bashers who currently reside in other churches, but many Christian Religions have problems with leaders having histories of being sex offenders. As a counselor/re-education administrator, I have direct contact with many of those classified by the law as offenders, and many of whom are members/clergy in a faith other than the Catholic Church.
Which is why I am against all organized religion (the potential abuse of power inharent with the position)

Hi UT,
I know we've talked about this before and I understand your distrust of "organized religion". You have some very good reasons to be skeptical. The one thing I'd ask you, do you believe that the religion, in this case Catholicism teaches or endorses sexually predatory behavior?

I don't know any church, organization, faith or parish that would ever suggest that what happened to you or others abused by clergy was acceptable. It is a clear violation of the tenents of the faith.

You are right about organizations and the abuse of power, but that is true of any situation where there is any power to be had. Those who want to abuse it, seek it out no matter whether it is in a church organization, the Gov. (see Slick Willy's history of unethical relationships if you need an example, not that there aren't others just as good), school teachers and parents. I certainly don't condone hiding it the way the Catholic church has done. Even those who would never condone abuses like these tend to be afraid of losing their power and influence because of someone else's evil behavior and those individual's need to be held accountable for their actions to cover things up just as those who actually perpertrate the abuses need to be. But even then, it is people who are corrupt. Organization is just a tool, like a gun or a knife or a car, none of these are evil in and of themselves. They are simply tools used by evil people at times to do others harm.

Is that making any sense??

The organized coverup I have seen the hypocracy and massive abuse possible by thoes who are by institution "gods men"

then mess them up. i still dont understand why this is an example of all organized faith

Hi UT,
I know we've talked about this before and I understand your distrust of "organized religion". You have some very good reasons to be skeptical. The one thing I'd ask you, do you believe that the religion, in this case Catholicism teaches or endorses sexually predatory behavior?

I don't know any church, organization, faith or parish that would ever suggest that what happened to you or others abused by clergy was acceptable. It is a clear violation of the tenents of the faith.

You are right about organizations and the abuse of power, but that is true of any situation where there is any power to be had. Those who want to abuse it, seek it out no matter whether it is in a church organization, the Gov. (see Slick Willy's history of unethical relationships if you need an example, not that there aren't others just as good), school teachers and parents. I certainly don't condone hiding it the way the Catholic church has done. Even those who would never condone abuses like these tend to be afraid of losing their power and influence because of someone else's evil behavior and those individual's need to be held accountable for their actions to cover things up just as those who actually perpertrate the abuses need to be. But even then, it is people who are corrupt. Organization is just a tool, like a gun or a knife or a car, none of these are evil in and of themselves. They are simply tools used by evil people at times to do others harm.

Is that making any sense??

I understand ... though I have issues for a set group of men(or women) designed to essentialy feed people what god wants them to know (I know that is not the intention but it is how many people feel)

:D will take u up on thoes pancakes another time :D

Next time is first sunday in May--my house. :D

I hate to burst the bubble of those would-be Catholic bashers who currently reside in other churches, but many Christian Religions have problems with leaders having histories of being sex offenders. As a counselor/re-education administrator, I have direct contact with many of those classified by the law as offenders, and many of whom are members/clergy in a faith other than the Catholic Church.

It is not my intent to bash the Catholic church or any other church for that matter. My mother is Catholic. My godmother is a Catholic nun who I love dearly. Most of my cousins, neices and nephews are Catholic. And I understand that many if not all Christian Churchs suffer from the problems that the Catholic Church is struggling with. What happened to Upward Thrust should never happen to anyone no matter what their religion. My gripe is not with organized religion. Religion like everything else down to the smallest particle must be organized. I was commenting on the corruption that has invaded Christianity. Examples of this corruption are seen everywhere and have been for centuries that is why Muhammed came to renew the voice of God on earth. The corruption of Islam is now very obvious for anyone to see. There is a new voice that has not been corrupted by humans. Just as Christ and Muhamed promised their voices would be renewed and they would Return.

See, the problem is, unless you happen to be contacted directly by a higher power, you kind of have to trust the priests, or holy books, to guide you in your religion.
Or be an agnostic or atheist.

Heck, if I'm searching for God, I need to be able to talk to people who think they've found him, and understand their beliefs. That gives them a lot of power over me. Not so much because I tend to be free-thinking, but many others just want to be told what to believe.

If I was a devout catholic, I'd want to trust my priests words. And listen to his advice. Then make up my own mind. It would disturb me if priests are shown to be "mortal" and do something that I consider morally abhorrent. Since this is the person I go to for moral guidance.

So I understand the huge reaction about catholic priests. Personally, I think they should be treated as anyone else involved in a sex offence. And *anyone* who is going to have such as huge negative impact from the investigation should be treated with respect, and investigated subtly. There is no reason for anyone to know that a priest is being investigated for sex offences, unless he poses a current threat. If he is cleared of the charges, then nobody should know (other than the police file).
But, there is no reason why a catholic priest shouldn't be investigated by the police, either. Authority from god doesn't apply in this matter.

See, the problem is, unless you happen to be contacted directly by a higher power, you kind of have to trust the priests, or holy books, to guide you in your religion.
Or be an agnostic or atheist.

Heck, if I'm searching for God, I need to be able to talk to people who think they've found him, and understand their beliefs. That gives them a lot of power over me. Not so much because I tend to be free-thinking, but many others just want to be told what to believe.

If I was a devout catholic, I'd want to trust my priests words. And listen to his advice. Then make up my own mind. It would disturb me if priests are shown to be "mortal" and do something that I consider morally abhorrent. Since this is the person I go to for moral guidance.

So I understand the huge reaction about catholic priests. Personally, I think they should be treated as anyone else involved in a sex offence. And *anyone* who is going to have such as huge negative impact from the investigation should be treated with respect, and investigated subtly. There is no reason for anyone to know that a priest is being investigated for sex offences, unless he poses a current threat. If he is cleared of the charges, then nobody should know (other than the police file).
But, there is no reason why a catholic priest shouldn't be investigated by the police, either. Authority from god doesn't apply in this matter.

A crime is a crime is a crime. The problem that Catholic Church is still trying to overcome is that it didn't treat the crimes that the Priests committed as real crimes. At first the Church just didn't believe what they were hearing and seeing; then when they began to suspect something was wrong they moved the perps from one Parrish to another trying to keep the Priests away from the victims. But the Priests just found new victims. It took years for the Church to finally admit that there was a problem that needed to be dealt with and that the children needed to be protected. They still have not competely taken responsibility for what they did and especially did not do.

Holy Crap. I live only a few miles away from there. I swim at there beach, made conversation with their priests...weird. Really strange things can happen without you ever knowing, huh?

See, the problem is, unless you happen to be contacted directly by a higher power, you kind of have to trust the priests, or holy books, to guide you in your religion.
Or be an agnostic or atheist.

Heck, if I'm searching for God, I need to be able to talk to people who think they've found him, and understand their beliefs. That gives them a lot of power over me. Not so much because I tend to be free-thinking, but many others just want to be told what to believe.

If I was a devout catholic, I'd want to trust my priests words. And listen to his advice. Then make up my own mind. It would disturb me if priests are shown to be "mortal" and do something that I consider morally abhorrent. Since this is the person I go to for moral guidance.

So I understand the huge reaction about catholic priests. Personally, I think they should be treated as anyone else involved in a sex offence. And *anyone* who is going to have such as huge negative impact from the investigation should be treated with respect, and investigated subtly. There is no reason for anyone to know that a priest is being investigated for sex offences, unless he poses a current threat. If he is cleared of the charges, then nobody should know (other than the police file).
But, there is no reason why a catholic priest shouldn't be investigated by the police, either. Authority from god doesn't apply in this matter.

I'm deist so I'm free to bash the churchs all I want. ;)
Seriously though, I only wish this was not so widespread throughout the Christian churches.
At least the islamic faith do not protect the child molesters.
Hopefulyl since this pope is the ex-head of the Inquisition, he change policy and start worrying about the victim rather than the church image.
The greatest issue the Vatican has is trust. If you can not trust the local priest, how can you trust the church?

I understand ... though I have issues for a set group of men(or women) designed to essentialy feed people what god wants them to know (I know that is not the intention but it is how many people feel)

I know what you mean, but again, that isn't a problem with the religion or an organizational structure, it is a problem with the people who have power within that structure abusing that power. Unfortunately, power, of any kind, seems to attract the corruptable, even in places that are supposed to behave at a higher standard. It is sad, but reality just the same, that people pretend to be Godly just so they can take on prerogatives that are God's alone.

See, the problem is, unless you happen to be contacted directly by a higher power, you kind of have to trust the priests, or holy books, to guide you in your religion.
Or be an agnostic or atheist.

Heck, if I'm searching for God, I need to be able to talk to people who think they've found him, and understand their beliefs. That gives them a lot of power over me. Not so much because I tend to be free-thinking, but many others just want to be told what to believe.


I understand that people believe that the Bible has it's own errors, but what you stated is the reason that I study the Bible for myself rather than just accepting what preachers say.

It does take faith to hold fast to the idea that the Bible is the inspired word of God and many argue against that notion, but if it isn't, we are simply left to the whim of whoever happens to be the loudest voice at the moment. I prefer to view the Bible as objective truth, revealed by God to humanity and judge everything else by it rather than the other way around. Of course, that takes a commitment to study and learn for onesself and that takes time, energy and effort that many don't seem willing to invest.

<snip>
At least the islamic faith do not protect the child molesters.
<snip>

Muhammed married Aisha when she was nine.
Muslims may marry girls as young as nine, in emulation of Muhammed. (Although many Muslim countries are now stopping this under international presure)