NationStates Jolt Archive

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=700059

President Hugo Chavez said a military exchange program with the United States was canceled because U.S. officers in Venezuela were spreading a negative image of his government to the soldiers they were training.

He also announced the detention of several Americans and said the United States might be planning to invade his country.

Let me guess, they were talking about the wonders of capitalism and free speech. Oh Noes.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=700059



Let me guess, they were talking about the wonders of capitalism and free speech. Oh Noes.
Mr. Chavez, if we're getting ready to invade your ass, where the hell are the troopships, the carriers, the armored divisions, the fighter jets, the bombers, the supply lines, all the stuff you need to knock over a country. I can tell you that they're nowhere near Venezuela, in fact, they happen to be in another place on the other side of the world called Iraq.

Well he is right to be worried. Such an action would not be unprecedented.

Here's a small list:
1898 SPANISH-AMERICAN WAR: US invaded, occupied, and took control of Cuba, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, and other Spansih island colonies in the Pacific
1898-1902 Cuba: US occupation following Spanish-American War
1904-1999 Panama: permanent US military bases protected US-controlled Panama Canal Zone
1907-1941 Dominican Republic: US military occupations 1905 to 1907; 1912; 1914; and 1916 to 1924; US controlled government finances 1905 to 1941
1906-1922 Cuba: US military ran the government from 1906 to 1909; occupied by US troops in 1912, and 1917 to 1922
1912-1925 Nicaragua: US military occupation 1909 to 1933, and controlled government finances from 1910 to 1924
1914-1917 Mexico: US military intervention during revolutionary turmoil; Marines sent to Tampico and Vera Cruz in 1914; from 1916 to1917, 6,000 US cavalry under Gen John Pershing clashed with troops of Caranza’s Mexican army
1915-1934 Haiti: US Marine occupation and US control of government
1954 Guatemala: CIA-trained exiles overthrew the democratically elected socialist government, leading to 40 years of brutality, with over 100 000 dead!
1961 Cuba: 1,400 CIA-trained exiles landed at Bay and Pigs and were defeated
1961-64: Brazil: Miliary coup supported by the US.
1965 Dominican Republic: 20,000 US Marines occupied the country and installed a pro-American government
1983 Grenada: 1,900 US Marines invaded and deposed the existing government
1984 Nicaragua: CIA secretly mined Nicaraguan harbors
1989-1990 Panama: US invasion force of 24,000 overthrew President Noriega
1994-- Haiti: US occupation and subsequent contribution of 2,400 troops to a UN peace keeping force

Though detentions seem a little harsh... he should have just requested that they leave immediately if he thinks they are a threat. Let us also not forget that as the leader of a country, he probably has more info on the situation than was released to ABC news.

~snip

Though detentions seem a little harsh... he should have just requested that they leave immediately if he thinks they are a threat. Let us also not forget that as the leader of a country, he probably has more info on the situation than was released to ABC news.
You do realize that by holding our people he increases the risk of action against him on our part, correct?

You do realize that by holding our people he increases the risk of action against him on our part, correct?US citizens are imprisoned in several countries, not just Venezuela.

one of them was canned in Singapour.

one of them was canned in Singapour.

And rightly so, in that particular instance.

Although I've never heard of a place called Singapour. Singapore on the other hand...

By the way, what was the offence?

Mr. Chavez, if we're getting ready to invade your ass, where the hell are the troopships, the carriers, the armored divisions, the fighter jets, the bombers, the supply lines, all the stuff you need to knock over a country. I can tell you that they're nowhere near Venezuela, in fact, they happen to be in another place on the other side of the world called Iraq.

hiding

Although I've never heard of a place called Singapour. Singapore on the other hand...

By the way, what was the offence?
A minor was caught spray-painting graffiti.

A minor was caught spray-painting graffiti.
The caning offense? No, was vandalism actually. The person in question was ripping the arials off of cars. A minor offense really, he only did several thousand dollars (US) worth of damage. Why should anyone get upset by that, I mean would you get upset if I smashed you TV, stereo and computer?


Regardless, Chavez is just pushing the Anti-Americanism which is his best hope of retaining power. He's been doing this for the past several years and it helps distract people from the fact that the Venuzualan economy is still crappy despite having one of the richest sweet oil fields in existance. Given the timing I suspect the detention of the americans had more to do with the recent shift in taxation on the oil leases than any real fear of US spies, sort of a warning to the oil companies that he could play nasty if he wanted to (note this could be wrong but is my suspicion).

Of course there is also the "just because you're paranoid' factor too, the US doesn't like Chavez and makes no secret of it, but I doubt the US dislike is strong enough for them to actually do anything serious (invade) about it. It seems the US is willing to leave Chavez in place as long as he keeps the oil flowing, the US would rather have a hostile government shipping oil than risk the results it has had helping change governments in the past (Castro, for instance), which might result in the oil not heading to the US.

The caning offense? No, was vandalism actually. The person in question was ripping the arials off of cars. A minor offense really, he only did several thousand dollars (US) worth of damage. Why should anyone get upset by that, I mean would you get upset if I smashed you TV, stereo and computer?.are you kidding me?

If you did it in the US...I dont trust the Judges to deliver justice...there is a chance they will let you walk...maybe because the jails are overcrowded.

in Singapur the law kick ass...so I dont have to worry over there.

A minor was caught spray-painting graffiti.
I thing it was that...as far as i remember..

Chavez is great. I'm ready to forgive pretty much any of his eccentricities.

Chavez is great. I'm ready to forgive pretty much any of his eccentricities.


I don't believe I just read that. :rolleyes:

US citizens are imprisoned in several countries, not just Venezuela.

one of them was canned in Singapour.
They put him in a can? That's barbaric.

I don't believe I just read that. :rolleyes:
Why? He's probably the national leader with the most concrete mandate in the world.

I'm not advocating Chavez socialism everywhere in the world but I support his efforts in Venezuela because he seems to be having a positive effect. The American administration (amongst others) may not like that but, frankly, it's none of their business.

I am not advocating Chavez Socialism anywhere in the world, period. :)

Why? He's probably the national leader with the most concrete mandate in the world.

I'm not advocating Chavez socialism everywhere in the world but I support his efforts in Venezuela because he seems to be having a positive effect. The American administration (amongst others) may not like that but, frankly, it's none of their business.
His country is going to be an economic wreck in a few years. The oil wealth is being spent as fast as it comes in, and his policies are causing foreign investment to flee, and the resident rich people to take their money and run to Florida, Australia, Spain, and other countries that don't try to seize rich people's assets and give them away.

Time will tell. And let's not be dogmatic about global economic systems, please. The one-size-fits-all mentality may well prove to be the most damaging economic philosophy we've ever had.

Ultimately, the people of Venezuela want him. It's their call.

US citizens are imprisoned in several countries, not just Venezuela.

one of them was canned in Singapour.

Caned. The verb is caned. Canned either means that he was put in a can or spanked on the... Oh. Nevermind. :D

Why? He's probably the national leader with the most concrete mandate in the world.

I'm not advocating Chavez socialism everywhere in the world but I support his efforts in Venezuela because he seems to be having a positive effect. The American administration (amongst others) may not like that but, frankly, it's none of their business.

True. He's still in power despite a concerted US effort to have him removed by "democratic" methods. Aside from Castro I don't think there's a single leader in the world who can claim such a mandate. If the US can't get you out then God must want you to stay.

On the side of him being worried about invasion, take a look at a book called "Confessions of an Economic Hitman." The more I read it the more I'm convinced that the book itself is fiction, but I still think the procedures he describes in it are genuine.

Just gone nuts? Where the hell have you been mate?!? :p

He's probably the national leader with the most concrete mandate in the world.let them at florida and the US supreme court appointed president hear that again:

Chavez is the President with the most concrete mandate in the world.

Wow, an elected president? By a majority? :eek:

Gross

let them at florida and the US supreme court appointed president hear that again:

Chavez is the President with the most concrete mandate in the world.
Which just goes to show that US citizens on average are a bit smarter than Venezuelans.

Wow, an elected president? By a majority? confirmed in nationwide scrutiny somethig like 6 times in 4 years...

and there was no "Florida ballots"...

Which just goes to show that US citizens on average are a bit smarter than Venezuelans.actually it says "Venezuela is more Democratic that USA".

Which just goes to show that US citizens on average are a bit smarter than Venezuelans.
Nice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're pretending to be an obnoxious fool.

Nice. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're pretending to be an obnoxious fool.
It was an obnoxious joke playing on the fact that our shitty leader wasn't actually chosen by the majority of our citizens, but their shitty leader was.

It was an obnoxious joke playing on the fact that our shitty leader wasn't actually chosen by the majority of our citizens, but their shitty leader was.
The evidence against democracy is really stacking up, eh?

The evidence against democracy is really stacking up, eh?
Well, we could just make me president for life. That would eliminate all the problems associated with democracy.

True. He's still in power despite a concerted US effort to have him removed by "democratic" methods. Aside from Castro I don't think there's a single leader in the world who can claim such a mandate. If the US can't get you out then God must want you to stay.

On the side of him being worried about invasion, take a look at a book called "Confessions of an Economic Hitman." The more I read it the more I'm convinced that the book itself is fiction, but I still think the procedures he describes in it are genuine.

The U.S. has never tried very seriously to get rid of Castro. JFK cancelled air support for the Bay of Pigs operation. He had a chance to get rid of him during the Cuban Missile Crisis; it'd have been the perfect excuse to get rid of him. Castro would never have come to power at all were it not for certain individuals in the State Department and the New York Times. Read all about it in The Fourth Floor, by Earl E.T. Smith, the last U.S. ambassador to Cuba. Not only did the U.S. government undermine anticommunist President Batista, but they refused Smith's requests for Cuban elections, which could have resulted in a democratic, pro-U.S., anticommunist government. The State Department said in effect: No, Earl. We don't want elections. We want Fidel Castro. And regardless of revisionist nonsense that Castro was originally a non-communist who only became communist later on, the facts speak otherwise. Read Red Star Over Cuba by Nathaniel Weyl.

Well, we could just make me president for life. That would eliminate all the problems associated with democracy.I think the one thing we can be certain of is that NO ONE from NS General should EVER be allowed within a mile of any political establishment...

And regardless of revisionist nonsense that Castro was originally a non-communist who only became communist later on, the facts speak otherwise. Read Red Star Over Cuba by Nathaniel Weyl.
He was socialist, although not particularly pro-Soviet. It was the later handling by the US trying to isolate the island that sent him completely over to the Soviet side, much over the protestation of El Che. This is what sent El Che packing, not that he was pro-US, mind you, he just didn't want Cuba to be on any other country's side.

So yes can i clear a few things up. My family lived in Venezuela for a long time working with the Gov't before Chavez. (setting up higher education) we have lots of ties with the intelligencia in Venezuela. I'd like to point out that Chavez is not a Socialist he is a dictator. He won his election through political intimidation. He released a list of people who did not support the gov't and who signed the act to force a re-election he then had the police visit them and many are now living in the US. His Oil profits are low because he constantly lays of the workers and the Intelligencia ie. Doctors teachers and so on are supressed so no one can bad mouth his policies. Chavez is by far one of the worst leaders in south america, Because his policies hurt the country and he uses force to stay in POWER.

I think the one thing we can be certain of is that NO ONE from NS General should EVER be allowed within a mile of any political establishment...
Bullshit. Look at how well run many of our personal nations are. Plus we tend to be much more interesting than the usual run of the mill politicians.

I'm reserving my judgement on Chávez until the 2006 elections. Meanwhile, we should all keep a cautious watch on his regime. Especially Colombia.

Hmm, interesting. He's certainly very divisive, despite the mandate.

I'm reserving my judgement on Chávez until the 2006 elections. Meanwhile, we should all keep a cautious watch on his regime. Especially Colombia.
Shouldn't that be the other way around?

Shouldn't that be the other way around?
Venezuela keep a cautious watch on Colombia? They should too, but I believe that disestabilization in Venezuela will affect Colombia much more than the other way around. After all, Colombia is barely starting to get some estability.

... he uses force to stay in POWER...

I though he used elections...and referendums...

but then again sisnce you are from Venezuela...I guess I gotta take your word for it [/sarcasm]

The U.S. has never tried very seriously to get rid of Castro. JFK cancelled air support for the Bay of Pigs operation. He had a chance to get rid of him during the Cuban Missile Crisis; it'd have been the perfect excuse to get rid of him. Castro would never have come to power at all were it not for certain individuals in the State Department and the New York Times. Read all about it in The Fourth Floor, by Earl E.T. Smith, the last U.S. ambassador to Cuba. Not only did the U.S. government undermine anticommunist President Batista, but they refused Smith's requests for Cuban elections, which could have resulted in a democratic, pro-U.S., anticommunist government. The State Department said in effect: No, Earl. We don't want elections. We want Fidel Castro. And regardless of revisionist nonsense that Castro was originally a non-communist who only became communist later on, the facts speak otherwise. Read Red Star Over Cuba by Nathaniel Weyl.

Didn't we try to kill him on three or four seperate occaisions? I thought this was pretty much accepted as fact now? There's always going to be some element that feels any given way on any given topic, and they're probably going to ascend to power now and then. That doesn't disprove the notion that other elements acted differently when they were in power.

I'm reserving my judgement on Chávez until the 2006 elections.
You can reserve your judgement untill the end of times...who cares about that.
...all that maters is the votes of the Venezuela people.

Venezuela keep a cautious watch on Colombia? They should too, but I believe that disestabilization in Venezuela will affect Colombia much more than the other way around. After all, Colombia is barely starting to get some estability.
Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood.

Colombia - yeesh, now there's a place with problems.

You can reserve your judgement untill the end of times...It will not make a difference.
Meh, judging now won't make a difference either, so at least I can try to make my judgement with a bit more of a retrospective.

Meh, judging now won't make a difference either, so at least I can try to make my judgement with a bit more of a retrospective.
like I said...your judgement is yours to make.

but all that matters is the vote of the Venezuela People.

You may not like him, but if the Majority likes him...he is in.

like I said...your judgement is yours to make.

but all that matters is the vote of the Venezuela People.

You may not like him, but if the Majority likes him...he is in.
Actually, I can of like him, he's not that bad. And that's why I want to wait for the next election; see what happens, what the opinion of the Venezuelans is, and Chávez reaction.

Actually, I can of like him, he's not that bad. And that's why I want to wait for the next election; see what happens, what the opinion of the Venezuelans is, and Chávez reaction.he will probably win by a confortable margin...again.

whatever happens...he goes on the Record boook for exercicng democracy all the way...winning several confidence votes again and again.

So yes can i clear a few things up. My family lived in Venezuela for a long time working with the Gov't before Chavez. (setting up higher education) we have lots of ties with the intelligencia in Venezuela. I'd like to point out that Chavez is not a Socialist he is a dictator. He won his election through political intimidation. He released a list of people who did not support the gov't and who signed the act to force a re-election he then had the police visit them and many are now living in the US. His Oil profits are low because he constantly lays of the workers and the Intelligencia ie. Doctors teachers and so on are supressed so no one can bad mouth his policies. Chavez is by far one of the worst leaders in south america, Because his policies hurt the country and he uses force to stay in POWER.

Supressed? Are you seriously omiting all the press that is against Chavez there? and babble against him nearly everyday? , or the "aristocrats"in the military? Free speech is not a problem here, nor a point of discussion, because freedom of speech is just an illusion everywhere in the world.

Also, let's remember the failed assasination attempt at Chavez back some years by USA intelligence in colusion with some segments there.He is preparing for a deffensive war, he has told that plenty of times; I can't belive some northamericans are afraid venezuela is going to invade them. They are just so paranoid-fed by their media.

Saludos a todos los hispanos aqui:)

You can tell a lot about a man by looking at the people who hate him the most. In Chavez's case...most of those people are the rich, the priveleged and the elite. What does that tell you?

Saludos a todos los hispanos aqui:)

You can tell a lot about a man by looking at the people who hate him the most. In Chavez's case...most of those people are the rich, the priveleged and the elite. What does that tell you?
Forget his enemies, look at his policies. He's going to destroy the economy of a nation that by all rights should be wallowing in oil wealth right now.

Saludos a todos los hispanos aqui:)

You can tell a lot about a man by looking at the people who hate him the most.
que puedes decir de mi?

Forget his enemies, look at his policies. He's going to destroy the economy of a nation that by all rights should be wallowing in oil wealth right now.maybe you know better than the people that lives there...maybe you know better than the people that votes there.

you are smarter and know better (or maybe you just think you are)

Chávez has real reasons why he fears Bush.

And that rich-spoiled-teenager In SingaPORE, got what he should have got, and asss whooping.

And yes, Amerika's Judges would be so easy on him, you know them easy going US judges... just ask any of them peeps in our OVER-CROWED Jails! Sheeeesh!

Forget his enemies, look at his policies. He's going to destroy the economy of a nation that by all rights should be wallowing in oil wealth right now.

He took a country with 80% of poverty. I doubt you can imagine such a situation, with low wages, low to none education, and a small segment called "elite" owning the entire country. It`s a suthamerican thing, maybe. The country was ruined WAY LONG before Chavez. I read somewhere in The Washington Post a journalist say the very same thing I quoted: "Chavez is destroying a estable democracy" ..There was never a "democracy" in Venezuela, it was never stable. It was a ruined country, with the majority of the people living under conditions you would call deficient.

In SingaPORE,...hehe...some say Irak some say Iraq.

some say potatoe...

maybe you know better than the people that lives there...maybe you know better than the people that votes there.

you are smarter and know better (or maybe you just think you are)
Maybe I know people who live there. The people over there with money are moving and taking all the wealth they can with them. Foreign investors are being scared off by Chavez's habit of seizing their assets. Look what happened to that British owned cattle ranch. Even the oil wealth is being squandered. You can't run a country like that for long.

He took a country with 80% of poverty. I doubt you can imagine such a situation, with low wages, low to none education, and a small segment called "elite" owning the entire country. It`s a suthamerican thing, maybe. The country was ruined WAY LONG before Chavez. I read somewhere in The Washington Post a journalist say the very same thing I quoted: "Chavez is destroying a estable democracy" ..There was never a "democracy" in Venezuela, it was never stable. It was a ruined country, with the majority of the people living under conditions you would call deficient.
You'll get no argument from me there. It's a horrible situation, but he's not taking the correct steps to build a sustainable economy that can alleviate poverty in the long term. You can't just go in and seize wealth all at once. It has to be done slowly so as not to scare away investment and so as to make sure that businesses remain productive. Minimum wage laws that ensure a living wage and higher taxes on the rich to pay for make-work projects would have had the desired effect, only more slowly and more sustainably. Plus the make-work projects would have improved communications and transport infrastructure, and made Venezuela more attractive to foreign investment. Chavez traded away the future of his nation so he could buy votes.

...You can't run a country like that for long.as far as i am concerned...you run a country for as long as most of the people wants you there.

all the presidents that get there without the backing of the Majority...they should be "vaninshed"...

as far as i am concerned...you run a country for as long as most of the people wants you there.

all the presidents that get there without the backing of the Majority...they should be "vaninshed"...
Maybe he can run the country like that, but he'll run it into the ground. They'll be looking at the same poverty as before in a few years, but with fewer prospects for alleviating it.

Forget his enemies, look at his policies. He's going to destroy the economy of a nation that by all rights should be wallowing in oil wealth right now.
Hmmm...well, he could do like Argentina did, completely open the market, index their currency to the dollar and then die a quick and painful death, beggering millions....

Maybe he can run the country like that, but he'll run it into the ground. They'll be looking at the same poverty as before in a few years, but with fewer prospects for alleviating it.
DC, my point is

If it was like that...most people would not vote for him...see they live there...

...they experience the consequences of Chaves desition on a daily basis, they ponder every single move he makes...

in contrast you only read a few articles by the US press...

Maybe I know people who live there. The people over there with money are moving and taking all the wealth they can with them. Foreign investors are being scared off by Chavez's habit of seizing their assets. Look what happened to that British owned cattle ranch. Even the oil wealth is being squandered. You can't run a country like that for long.
You can if your priorities are not making a profit, but rather trying to benefit the majority instead of the minority for once. Venezuela has deep problems rooted in centuries of caudillo abuses and so on. Chavez has inherited those problems, and is trying to make do with the sad situation his country is in. Of course he will be blamed for that, but frankly, if his people support him democratically, no one has the right to oust him. That's democracy. It doesn't always choose the right person (though in this case I think it has chose the best person available), but it's better than no freedom of choice at all.

Hmmm...well, he could do like Argentina did, completely open the market, index their currency to the dollar and then die a quick and painful death, beggering millions....
Argentinean Govs are scared of the US gov...

You'll get no argument from me there. It's a horrible situation, but he's not taking the correct steps to build a sustainable economy that can alleviate poverty in the long term. You can't just go in and seize wealth all at once. It has to be done slowly so as not to scare away investment and so as to make sure that businesses remain productive. Minimum wage laws that ensure a living wage and higher taxes on the rich to pay for make-work projects would have had the desired effect, only more slowly and more sustainably. Plus the make-work projects would have improved communications and transport infrastructure, and made Venezuela more attractive to foreign investment. Chavez traded away the future of his nation so he could buy votes.
You have to understand though that keeping himself in power is essential if he is going to do any of the things you've mentioned. Latinos are used to the big promises of reform that never pan out...they would not tolerate reform that seems too slow. It is too much like what EVERY government has done...promised lasting change and never produced it. Some of these hasty moves are damaging, yes, but necessary to keep popular support. Vote buying? Sure...everyone does it. Without it, he'd be out and someone else would be in and no changes to be found.

Argentinean Govs are scared of the US gov...
Exactly. But they were also convinced that this free market shock therapy would do as promised. Instead, it bit them in the culo.

One of the best things about democratically elected governments is that the people have no right to complain when the government ends up screwing them hard.

Point of fact - there's no nice or easy or workable way to achieve things like land reform. No way to redistribute wealth without sacking the economy and deterring investment.

Personally I think he's going to make Venezuela's situation much worse in the long run. But as long as the people are foolish enough to elect him there's nothing anyone can legitimately do about it.

Point of fact - there's no nice or easy or workable way to achieve things like land reform. No way to redistribute wealth without sacking the economy and deterring investment.
Thank you. You're right...change isn't easy, it isn't neat, and it isn't guaranteed to work. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying.

Instead, it bit them in the culo.The Argentinean Govs are convinced that the US Gov is God...and they are scared of it.

looks like Chaves is not convinced...and he is buying 100000 AKs for a "peoples" Army...a huge militia...

If I were him I would prepare for guerrila warfare.

But as long as the people are foolish enough to elect him there's nothing anyone can legitimately do about it.well Im sure there is a few plans for "regime Change" at Langley...

ranging from assasination...to a war with a US backed coalition (Colombia+Ecuador).

Personally I think he's going to make Venezuela's situation much worse in the long run. But as long as the people are foolish enough to elect him there's nothing anyone can legitimately do about it.
Worse? Worse than what? Worse than the staggering poverty already experienced by the majority of Venezuelans? Worse than centuries of social inequity?

I believe Chavez is the greatest leader of any modern country and he is quite right to be suspicious of the American imperialists especially after all the democratic governments they have previously attacked in the region. The USA probably does have plans to invade Venezuala and the CIA was undoubtedly behind a coup in Venezuala several years ago which attempted to establish a military dictatorship but collapsed after less than two days when millions of workers took to the streets.

Frankly, running a country to shit under a democracy should not be justification EVER for an invasion or coup or any other underhanded tactics that have been used to remove people from their elected positions. But it hasn't stopped them before...

Worse? Worse than what? Worse than the staggering poverty already experienced by the majority of Venezuelans? Worse than centuries of social inequity?
How about that same poverty with even less of a chance that the government can alleviate it? That's what he's heading for. If you want to eliminate poverty you need a strong economy, and a government that will harness it for the benefit of the whole nation. Chavez is going to ruin the economy. Then what will happen to his reforms? Without money they'll disappear.

I believe Chavez is the greatest leader of any modern country and he is quite right to be suspicious of the American imperialists especially after all the democratic governments they have previously attacked in the region. The USA probably does have plans to invade Venezuala and the CIA was undoubtedly behind a coup in Venezuala several years ago which attempted to establish a military dictatorship but collapsed after less than two days when millions of workers took to the streets.
Why don't you go live in Venezuela then? I mean if he's the greatest leader of any modern country they must have a great future ahead of them. Go ahead, move there. Then talk to me when you're unemployed and starving in ten years.

Thank you. You're right...change isn't easy, it isn't neat, and it isn't guaranteed to work. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying.
Traditionally, it takes several cycles of this - where someone tries to reform an economy - before it comes close to being right. In the meantime, people starve, lose their jobs, are jailed, shot for protesting, etc.

I think some countries say, "wow, I'd like our country to be just like Sweden". Well, that's like saying you would like to be going 180kph on the motorway just like that Saab over there. But you're in a junk car with unreliable steering, a bad motor, bald tires, and no brakes. And you want to be going 180kph right now, so you put an old JATO rocket in your trunk and light the fuse...

How about that same poverty with even less of a chance that the government can alleviate it? That's what he's heading for. If you want to eliminate poverty you need a strong economy,
and a government that will harness it for the benefit of the whole nation... you mean like the government we instaled in Iraq?...or like the Gov we installed in Afghanistan? Like the Shas? like the duvalier Gov we instaled in Haiti? marcos? Salvador? honduras?

Why don't you go live in Venezuela then? I mean if he's the greatest leader of any modern country they must have a great future ahead of them. Go ahead, move there. Then talk to me when you're unemployed and starving in ten years.
You have to understand that the USA and the insane free market policies it is trying to force on Latin America have done so much damage to the region that it will take a very long time to be changed for the better. Chavez however is one of the first leaders who is actually doing something to help the majority of the population and for the first time ever the people of Venezuala can have access to healthcare, education and other services which until now have only been available for a small priviliged elite.

Why don't you go live in Venezuela then? I mean if he's the greatest leader of any modern country they must have a great future ahead of them. Go ahead, move there. Then talk to me when you're unemployed and starving in ten years.
Or he could stay where he is and suffer the same fate.

No country is perfect.

You support democracy? Is that only when you agree with the policies of the particular government in question?

This isn't your choice. It's theirs. They are no more guaranteed to fail than any other government imposing radical new economic policies. Shock therapy liberalization is just as damaging...and rarely democratic. Give him time.

You have to understand that the USA and the insane free market policies it is trying to force on Latin America have done so much damage to the region that it will take a very long time to change. Chavez is however one of the first leaders who is actually doing something to help the majority of the population and for the first time ever the people of Venezuala can have access to healthcare, education and other services which until now have only been available a small priviliged elite.

That being said I think it's rather obvious that the US is not invading Venezuela, no matter how Chavez fantasizes about it.

He should stick to doing what he's doing - trying to make some progress - instead of shouting inane remarks to no one in particular.

I think some countries say, "wow, I'd like our country to be just like Sweden". Well, that's like saying you would like to be going 180kph on the motorway just like that Saab over there. But you're in a junk car with unreliable steering, a bad motor, bald tires, and no brakes...all I can say is: wach out for the US DeathTraps (checkpoints) :D

That being said I think it's rather obvious that the US is not invading Venezuela, no matter how Chavez fantasizes about it.

He should stick to doing what he's doing - trying to make some progress - instead of shouting inane remarks to no one in particular.
I can understand his paranoia, given the (unproven but nonetheless suspicious) link between the US and the recent coup attempt. Not to mention the US's history in Latin America.

Now, whether or not that is fair is another issue, but it's certainly understandable.

My main fear for Venezuela if Chavez does manage to continue is that they may end up with a personality cult scenario. Or maybe we only hear about him, rather than his party? Actually, that seems pretty likely, given the simplicity of mainstream media reporting on such issues.

That being said I think it's rather obvious that the US is not invading Venezuela, no matter how Chavez fantasizes about it.

He should stick to doing what he's doing - trying to make some progress - instead of shouting inane remarks to no one in particular.
It's a successful tactic used by many governments. Unite the people against a common enemy, real or imagined.

all I can say is: wach out for the US DeathTraps (checkpoints) :D

I've talked to quite a few people from Salvador, Honduras, and Mexico about the subject of land reform (which is only part of the problem Chavez faces).

There is NOT a quick way to suddenly reform a country that works. In fact, it is likely that although he tries, and may even succeed, it will not be in his lifetime, nor likely in the lifetime of his children.

It is always a disaster from an economic standpoint. It has to be done - but how to get there and how fast is always the question.

Expropriating land from farms and ranches ALWAYS results in immediate loss of production.

Expropriating businesses ALWAYS results in immediate loss of foreign investment - and it stifles anyone in your own country with a mind to opening their own business of any kind.

Rushing from the inequity and squalor of current Venezuela to the example of Sweden in a single politician's career is wishful thinking.

you mean like the government we instaled in Iraq?...or like the Gov we installed in Afghanistan? Like the Shas? like the duvalier Gov we instaled in Haiti? marcos? Salvador? honduras?
Since when did I say that we install great governments? We should, but we settle for less instead.

Rushing from the inequity and squalor of current Venezuela to the example of Sweden in a single politician's career is wishful thinking.
Yes...but it does need to be done, as you've said. Hopefully the political will to make these changes will outlive Chavez. It's going to be a mess there for a long time, and unfortunately that will likely convince many that it is wrong to make these changes :(

given the average person's general knowledge about politics around the world.knowledge about politics around the world...is relative to whatever news you National media feed you...

US citizens who live in Europe/Asia do not have the same level of political Knoledge.(compared to the inside US citizens)

You have to understand that the USA and the insane free market policies it is trying to force on Latin America have done so much damage to the region that it will take a very long time to be changed for the better. Chavez however is one of the first leaders who is actually doing something to help the majority of the population and for the first time ever the majority of people in Venezuala can have access to healthcare, education and other services which until now have only been available for a small priviliged elite.
When his economy tanks and he runs out of money those services won't be available to anybody in Venezuela. You put your finger on it in the first sentence. "it will take a very long time to be changed for the better". Chavez is rushing things and destroying his economy in the process.

knowledge about politics around the world...is relative to whatever news you National media feed you...

US citizens who live in Europe/Asia do not have the same level of political Knoledge.(compared to the inside US citizens)
Damn. I didn't make my edit quick enough. Please re-read my earlier post - I changed it.

When his economy tanks and he runs out of money those services won't be available to anybody in Venezuela. You put your finger on it in the first sentence. "it will take a very long time to be changed for the better". Chavez is rushing things and destroying his economy in the process.

He doesn't have a choice. If he doesn't do it, the people who elected him will kill him.

Or he could stay where he is and suffer the same fate.

No country is perfect.

You support democracy? Is that only when you agree with the policies of the particular government in question?

This isn't your choice. It's theirs. They are no more guaranteed to fail than any other government imposing radical new economic policies. Shock therapy liberalization is just as damaging...and rarely democratic. Give him time.
I'm not saying we should try to take him out. I'm just pointing out the mistakes I see him making and because of those mistakes I think the future of Venezuela looks bleak.

I'm not saying we should try to take him out. I'm just pointing out the mistakes I see him making and because of those mistakes I think the future of Venezuela looks bleak.
It may look bleak for some time, but if the reforms are allowed to run their course, things will pick up. No lasting change can happen overnight, yet he's in a hard place..he has to change enough to stay in power, but not too much to go over the edge. It's a juggling act that his successors will have to continue.

I'm not saying we should try to take him out. I'm just pointing out the mistakes I see him making and because of those mistakes I think the future of Venezuela looks bleak.

A majority of Venezuelans think that they have nothing to lose, so it must suck already.

Why does Chavez keep saying that the US is going to invade?

When his economy tanks and he runs out of money those services won't be available to anybody in Venezuela. You put your finger on it in the first sentence. "it will take a very long time to be changed for the better". Chavez is rushing things and destroying his economy in the process.

I wouldn't say that Chavez was rushing things and although he has nationalised part of the oil industry, factories which have been closed, some land and has raised taxes, the majority of the economy still remains under private ownership. Once socialism has finally been achieved there is no reason why the economy should be less profitable than at the moment and it is likely to be far more beneficial to the majority of the population than the present corrupt syaytem which only benefits a wealthy elite.

I wouldn't say that Chavez was rushing things and although he has nationalised part of the oil industry, factories which have been closed, some land and has raised taxes, the majority of the economy still remains under private ownership. Once socialism has finally been achieved there is no reason why the economy should be less profitable than at the moment and it is likely to be to the benefit of the majority of the population.

The problem is that you can't make that transition in just a few years. Not without wrecking the economy, or ruining the farmland for decades.

I wouldn't say that Chavez was rushing things and although he has nationalised part of the oil industry, factories which have been closed, some land and has raised taxes, the majority of the economy still remains under private ownership. Once socialism has finally been achieved there is no reason why the economy should be less profitable than at the moment and it is likely to be far more beneficial to the majority of the population than the present corrupt syaytem which only benefits a wealthy elite.
He's already causing the wealthy in Venezuela to flee the country and take with them as much wealth as they can. He's already discouraged foreign investment. All he has left is the oil revenues. Those are being spent for the most part, not invested in better infrastructure to lure business to Venezuela. When oil prices force industry to turn to alternate sources of energy Venezuela will be ruined.

It may look bleak for some time, but if the reforms are allowed to run their course, things will pick up. No lasting change can happen overnight, yet he's in a hard place..he has to change enough to stay in power, but not too much to go over the edge. It's a juggling act that his successors will have to continue.
My point is that things won't pick up. The pace of his reforms is too fast. He's eating the economic seed corn. Once it's gone there will be no more. Venezuela will starve.

This question has been answered in this same thread over and over. I should add my own speculation: I do not think the US will actually invade with marines and tanks, and aeroplanes; it will give them a very bad image here and pushing Venezuela to a mediatic image for "fight for freedom", or "david vs. goliath".Besides the entire US army is being drained in the middle east, eastern europe. And!, I don't think the americans would "agree" to another massive draft. One would not understimate the countless guerillas that will go to fight with the "Resistance" (insurgents, if you will). However, Venezuela's bridge building to asian powers (China, Russia) and burning with its traditional ones (the US and Europe mainly) will , according to myself,have to go through critical times to achieve its goals.




Why does Chavez keep saying that the US is going to invade?

... I do not think the US will actually invade with marines and tanks, and aeroplanes; it will give them a very bad image here and pushing Venezuela to a mediatic image for "fight for freedom", or "david vs. goliath"....If I was Bush, I would use Colombia...I would provoke a war between Colombia and Venezuela...and it would be handled like the Iraq-Iran war...

I have a question for all:
if you were Chavez...and preparing for a military showdown with the US...
how would you prepare?
what kind of equipent would you buy?
and what kind of weapons would you avoid?

If I was Bush, I would use Colombia...I would provoke a war between Colombia and Venezuela...and it would be handled like the Iraq-Iran war...

I have a question for all:
if you were Chavez...and preparing for a military showdown with the US...
how would you prepare?
what kind of equipent would you buy?
and what kind of weapons would you avoid?

I would continue to smoke a lot of dope, because anyone who believes that the US would invade Venezuela is obviously smoking some good stuff.

I would continue to smoke a lot of dope, because anyone who believes that the US would invade Venezuela is obviously smoking some good stuff. lets say you are or Iran or Syria or Iraq...how would you have prepared for a US war/occupation?

I would continue to smoke a lot of dope, because anyone who believes that the US would invade Venezuela is obviously smoking some good stuff.
I wouldn't completely rule it out. Though it would probably not look like the interventions of the past (or the present one in Iraq), I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a scheme that funded contra-like anti-Chavez fighters. Nor, given the US/Colombia relationship would I put it past the US to further fan the flames and make promises to Colombia in return for hostilities on that front.

If I was Bush, I would use Colombia...I would provoke a war between Colombia and Venezuela...and it would be handled like the Iraq-Iran war...

I have a question for all:
if you were Chavez...and preparing for a military showdown with the US...
how would you prepare?
what kind of equipent would you buy?
and what kind of weapons would you avoid?
Avoid ships and planes. They would be destroyed quickly.

Buy Kalashnikovs and light mortars that can be set up, fired, and moved quickly. Invest in some man portable anti-aircraft rockets. Buy some decent night vision equipment. Make sure you have some good shoulder-launched rockets. Maybe RPG, maybe the thermobaric "Bumblebee" rocket. www.janes.com/defence/land_forces/news/jidr/jidr010104_3_n.shtml

lets say you are or Iran or Syria or Iraq...how would you have prepared for a US war/occupation?

The only obstacles to a US invasion of anyone are:

political will
money

So, in order to get the US to drop an occupation, you have to inflict the kind of casualties that the Viet Cong inflicted on the US. That's over 6000 deaths (and twice as many wounded) per year. Even the strategy currently in use in Iraq is not coming anywhere close - and it's not having enough of a political effect - people re-elected Bush. I think that you would probably have to attack the US in some asymmetric way that kills tens of millions of people - and even then, they might just come and annihilate you.

Money is not an obstacle to the US. But an asymmetric attack might do something to the markets, which might damage the economy.

Fighting in your own backyard in today's modern US warfighting environment is suicide.

lets say you are or Iran or Syria or Iraq...how would you have prepared for a US war/occupation?
Immediately surrender. They couldn't win a war. It seems they can only offer token resistance to an occupation too.

There civilians are having military indstruction. It seems they are closely monitoring the events in Iraq (setting a standard in resistance maneuver) and learning from them. Most third world countrys that are clashing with the US are preparing for asimetrical war. If you ask me? If I were in a occupied state I´d fight for my family, my neighbours, my girlfriend, never mind the flag there. I´m sure a good portion of iraqi "insurgents" are people fighting, more than their country, for their homes, their families, their way of life. That is for me worth deffending.

So, in order to get the US to drop an occupation, you have to inflict the kind of casualties that the Viet Cong inflicted on the US. That's over 6000 deaths (and twice as many wounded) per year. Even the strategy currently in use in Iraq is not coming anywhere close - and it's not having enough of a political effect - people re-elected Bush. I think that you would probably have to attack the US in some asymmetric way that kills tens of millions of people - and even then, they might just come and annihilate you.

Money is not an obstacle to the US. But an asymmetric attack might do something to the markets, which might damage the economy.*walks in the War room*

General WhispLegs, you are Fired!!!

we asked you for advice, for a Plan, for a strategy, do defend the MotherLand...

and all you come up with are political cacaphonies, and buble some reasons why we shoud simply bend over and surrender...

If General Washington was here, he would fire your ass too.

*walks in the War room*

General WhispLegs, you are Fired!!!

we asked you for advice, for a Plan, for a strategy, do defend the MotherLand...

and all you come up with are political cacaphonies, and buble some reasons why we shoud simply bend over and surrender...

If General Washington was here, he would fire your ass too.

Better than being forced to join a homoerotic pyramid of naked men after we lose...

Immediately surrender. They couldn't win a war. It seems they can only offer token resistance to an occupation too.General DrunkCommie your talk is direct clear...your plan is simple and easy.

but...you are a pussy, go home and send your wife to replace you, maye she has the courage to defend the honor of our motherland.

Better than being forced to join a homoerotic pyramid of naked men after we lose...of course...if you become a collaborator with alien ocupation... your ass will be safe, you will die old, you will die a coward...

its your ass, its your choice.

well if you become a collaborator we th alien ocupation your ass will be safe, you will die old, you will die a Coward...

Yes, and I'll be able to tell the difference between a crap and a fart.

There civilians are having military indstruction. It seems they are closely monitoring the events in Iraq (setting a standard in resistance maneuver) and learning from them. Most third world countrys that are clashing with the US are preparing for asimetrical war. If you ask me? If I were in a occupied state I´d fight for my family, my neighbours, my girlfriend, never mind the flag there. I´m sure a good portion of iraqi "insurgents" are people fighting, more than their country, for their homes, their families, their way of life. That is for me worth deffending.

Exactly. They're called the Iraqi Army and they fight for ther good guys. The insurgents are largely Baathist (ie, they want to be able to boss people around again) or Islamist (ie, they want to let everyone feel the same joy that the Afgans had under the Taliban, like public whipping of women, destruction of cultural treasures, etc).

General DrunkCommie your talk is direct clear...your plan is simple and easy.

but...you are a pussy, go home and send your wife to replace you, maye she has the courage to defend the honor of our motherland.
*stages military coup backed by CIA and US special forces*

Here's the plan, then.

We surrender the country to the French government, and invite their troops in right away (we'll charter the airliners if we have to).

That way, the US won't attack us, because we've already been beaten.

Here's the plan, then.

We surrender the country to the French government, and invite their troops in right away (we'll charter the airliners if we have to).

That way, the US won't attack us, because we've already been beaten.

But then you run the risk of the French soldiers surrendering to their stewardesses before they arrive, and your country being operated as a wholly owned subsididiary of TWA.

Here's the plan, then.

We surrender the country to the French government, and invite their troops in right away (we'll charter the airliners if we have to).

That way, the US won't attack us, because we've already been beaten.

General WhisLegs, yes we do need alternative plans...

but please tell me...why do all you plans start with "We surrender..."

But then you run the risk of the French soldiers surrendering to their stewardesses before they arrive, and your country being operated as a wholly owned subsididiary of TWA.
LOL! :D

US citizens are imprisoned in several countries, not just Venezuela.

one of them was canned in Singapour.

Cream of Michael Faye (sp?) Soup?

hehe

Here's the plan, then.

We surrender the country to the French government, and invite their troops in right away (we'll charter the airliners if we have to).

That way, the US won't attack us, because we've already been beaten.

ROFL

General WhisLegs, yes we do need alternative plans...

but please tell me...why do all you plans start with "We surrender..."
I guess you didn't catch that photo of that guy with a panty on his head.

I guess you didn't catch that photo of that guy with a panty on his head.yes General, yes they are Big and Powerful...and yes they are evil...
I know you are scared, but try to control your fear...

If you allow fear to overrun your life, you will live like a pitiful scared mouse...some would prefer to die figthing.

yes General, yes they are Big and Powerful...and yes they are evil...
I know you are scared, but try to control your fear...

If you allow fear to overrun your life, you will live like a pitiful scared mouse...some would prefer to die figthing.

Well, you see, there ISN'T a viable strategy that would prevent the US from occupying a country short of massive geographical area (Russia would be hard, because lines of communication would be so long).

yes General, yes they are Big and Powerful...and yes they are evil...
I know you are scared, but try to control your fear...

If you allow fear to overrun your life, you will live like a pitiful scared mouse...some would prefer to die figthing.
And some will gladly kill them.

Chavez has found the secret to getting International support while driving foreign companies away- Blame the Americans for everything that goes wrong, and insist they'll be invading "any day now".
If there's only one name on the Ballot in 2006, All Chavez has to do to get a U.N. pass is claim that the Americans are at fault. Likewise, if there is no election in 2006..

It might be safer for Americans travelling that part of the world, to simply 'avoid' Venezuela entirely. Socialist Ideologues are every bit as dangerous as Fascist idealoques, and Chavez is pushing to try and start something with the U.S. (Ghod only knows why, we've got enough dealing with the Koreas, the Middle-East, and Taiwan.)

Well he is right to be worried. Such an action would not be unprecedented.

Here's a small list:
1898 SPANISH-AMERICAN WAR: US invaded, occupied, and took control of Cuba, the Philippines, Puerto Rico, and other Spansih island colonies in the Pacific
1898-1902 Cuba: US occupation following Spanish-American War
1904-1999 Panama: permanent US military bases protected US-controlled Panama Canal Zone
1907-1941 Dominican Republic: US military occupations 1905 to 1907; 1912; 1914; and 1916 to 1924; US controlled government finances 1905 to 1941
1906-1922 Cuba: US military ran the government from 1906 to 1909; occupied by US troops in 1912, and 1917 to 1922
1912-1925 Nicaragua: US military occupation 1909 to 1933, and controlled government finances from 1910 to 1924
1914-1917 Mexico: US military intervention during revolutionary turmoil; Marines sent to Tampico and Vera Cruz in 1914; from 1916 to1917, 6,000 US cavalry under Gen John Pershing clashed with troops of Caranza’s Mexican army
1915-1934 Haiti: US Marine occupation and US control of government
1954 Guatemala: CIA-trained exiles overthrew the democratically elected socialist government, leading to 40 years of brutality, with over 100 000 dead!
1961 Cuba: 1,400 CIA-trained exiles landed at Bay and Pigs and were defeated
1961-64: Brazil: Miliary coup supported by the US.
1965 Dominican Republic: 20,000 US Marines occupied the country and installed a pro-American government
1983 Grenada: 1,900 US Marines invaded and deposed the existing government
1984 Nicaragua: CIA secretly mined Nicaraguan harbors
1989-1990 Panama: US invasion force of 24,000 overthrew President Noriega
1994-- Haiti: US occupation and subsequent contribution of 2,400 troops to a UN peace keeping force

Though detentions seem a little harsh... he should have just requested that they leave immediately if he thinks they are a threat. Let us also not forget that as the leader of a country, he probably has more info on the situation than was released to ABC news.

Yes.

Chavez has found the secret to getting International support while driving foreign companies away- Blame the Americans for everything that goes wrong, and insist they'll be invading "any day now".
If there's only one name on the Ballot in 2006, All Chavez has to do to get a U.N. pass is claim that the Americans are at fault. Likewise, if there is no election in 2006..

It might be safer for Americans travelling that part of the world, to simply 'avoid' Venezuela entirely. Socialist Ideologues are every bit as dangerous as Fascist idealoques, and Chavez is pushing to try and start something with the U.S. (Ghod only knows why, we've got enough dealing with the Koreas, the Middle-East, and Taiwan.)
No, no, no and no. Ach, so I didn't count exactly how many inaccuracies, but you get the drift.

Well, you see, there ISN'T a viable strategy that would prevent the US from occupying a country ....ok General...then can you propose seme strategies to ecourage them to leave...

anything short of bending over and all your surrender talk...anything that would suggest you have some dignity left in your body?