NationStates Jolt Archive

The wall street crash hit Germany harder than most nations becuase to aid in its economic recovery it had taken out large loans from American banks and other fiancial instiutions. So when the crash happened quite naturally the banks needed their money back rather fast, and so Germany was left far worse off in the depression than was every other country. My question here being, was it the wall street crash that ultimately lost the German people's confidence in democracy as a whole and then lead to the rise of extremeism and later the Nazis? Is it possible that without the wall street crash, the future of Europe and indeed the rest of the world, would have been shaped diffrently without a second world war and without the Nazi's but with instead a progressive government at the heart of Europe?

I thought people would apricate some actual historical debate, oh well.

Historical debate!

Historical debates require facts and reason.

There is no place for facts and reason in Nationstates!

Not that I can be bothered getting sources to back me up, but I don't think it would have survived. As I understand the situation, the German people felt that the Weimar republic was there to act as the allies lapdog, acting in the best interests of foreigners and not the German people. They saw the payments the government was forced to make after WWI and were angry that this money was being taken from them when they had suffered just as much as the allies.

Hmm... damn, that IS a good question. Hmm, I don't believe so. For one thing the treaty requirments were crushing, which Hitler might not have been brought to power, I think you could make a good argument for some sort of collaspe, maybe even one prodded by the USSR and transforming Germany into a communist state (instead of only half a Germany). Russia wouldn't have lost a good chunk of its population in WWII after all.

Also, if memory serves, the world's economic condition was poor all over the place. The Wall St crash was part of the problem yes, but not the whole of the problem. The rest of the world would have probably dragged the American econmy down anyway, causing the same conditions.

But this is just speculation. Very good question though.

Is it possible that without the wall street crash, the future of Europe and indeed the rest of the world, would have been shaped diffrently without a second world war and without the Nazi's but with instead a progressive government at the heart of Europe?

I have no answer as I've left my crystal ball in my other pocket, but that's a damn fine question.

Incidently, one of the main reasons for the crash in '29 was because the US government thought it would be a good idea to trust people with their own money.

They're about to try it again.

Watch out if you're 14-21 now.

The wall street crash hit Germany harder than most nations becuase to aid in its economic recovery it had taken out large loans from American banks and other fiancial instiutions. So when the crash happened quite naturally the banks needed their money back rather fast, and so Germany was left far worse off in the depression than was every other country. My question here being, was it the wall street crash that ultimately lost the German people's confidence in democracy as a whole and then lead to the rise of extremeism and later the Nazis? Is it possible that without the wall street crash, the future of Europe and indeed the rest of the world, would have been shaped diffrently without a second world war and without the Nazi's but with instead a progressive government at the heart of Europe?

The Nazis definately exploited the opportunity, but the republic would have fallen eventually anyway. It was hopelessly stuck in political battles, and a single party never gained a majority. After the war, there were provisions added to the new constitution to curb those problems, like adding a vote for political parties, and not seating anyone from a party who got less than 5% of the vote.

The lack of the depression and subsequent war would have allowed for a more orderly change, but it would have still changed, although I don't know what to.

no. The treaty would have been too much anyway. The rest can be read in Patra Caesar's post. I suggest Hitler, The Rise of Evil (miniseries) to everyone who's interested of how the situation evolved. It's a bit simplified but interesting nevertheless.

I don't think it would have survived, either. To my knowledge, the constitution of Wiemar germany was fundamentally flawed.

I'm not sure if would have been necessary that it was ended by the Nazis. Communists would be possible as well, they had sort of similar ambitions.
I'm kinda scared by the idea. Imagine such a communist Germany would have allied itself with the Soviet Union. Who knows, if it would have come to war (for some reason, who knows, after all Stalin was kinda similar to Hitler), the Allies would probably have been easily defeated.

However, assuming Wiemar Germany would not have been ended by either communists or nazis, it's difficult to say how 20th century would have looked like. Cold War as we know it maybe would never have happened without the countries of eastern Europe being occupied by the Soviets as it happened subsequently to WWII. It might have resulted in a better world than the one in which we live, but i'm not sure. There are too many uncertainty factors.

One of such factors for example would have been Japan (as a matter of fact the Pacific War would have happened anyways). Japan would likely have been defeated, but there would have been a terrible battle with millions of casualties during an US invasion of Japan in 1945/46 since they definitly wouldn't have nuclear weapons by then.

It's... complicated.

To answer your question, not directly but indirectly. Without the crash it is extremely unlikely Hindenberg would have signed off on the Article 48 Emergency Power economic decree in 1930, and if somehow he did it would have been rejected without the backdrop of the world economic crisis. Hinderberg's assumption of autocratic power under Article 48 was a large part of what brought about the end of the Wiemar Republic as an effective government and destroyed the German peoples confidence in democratic rule. However the crash was not the ultimate cause of the collapse of the Wiemar Republic, it merely facilitated it.

If it didn't collapse; would there be an EU? would America have such a strong military? would Germany still be the military and scientific power that it was? Would Israel exist? It's impossible to say with any degree of certainty!

No, I don't think it would have. The war reparations would have still bank rupted their economy and Heitler would have still risen to power cos people would still have been miserable.
Weirmar was too democratic to survive at the time, I don't think it would have worked even today as they would have been to easy to take advantage of internationally.

Yes, it's fairly likely despite a flawed consitution. Prior to Hitler the reparations were being renegotiated. They weren't that crippling in the late 20s, the goverment could still afford one of the most (perhaps even the best) extensive social welfare benefits seen at that time for its population, and they didn't really have to bother with military spending with the army limited to 100,000 men. It would probably be fair to say that the financial stress involved in the payment of reparations was less than that of modern third world countries with extensive debt - and many of these countries are relatively stable.

In addition, Weimar was not seen as a lapdog of the allies by the population. When the government stalled on repaying debts and the French and Belgian armies occupied the Rhineland to take the factories and confiscate what they produced, the government was unified in opposition to this. Well, nearly unified. Curiously, the only party that didn't support the opposition was the Nazi Party.

well I am glad that some people joined in the debate, and thank you to all of those who said this was a good question

To continue, wasnt there a treaty in the Stressmen years which played down the reperation fees?