NationStates Jolt Archive

I often hear that there is arcaeological evidence for the Biblical flood of Noah fame. I also here people say there are other mythic floods from other mythologies. Can anyone show me evidence of either?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

This might be a good place to start on other flood myths. Whether they point to an historical event I am not sure, but it is interesting that so many mythologies include one.

Given that humans are born in a flood of amniotic fluid, and given that water is the universal solvent and has been used since prehistory for rinsing/cleaning, I would say at the least that the flood mythos has to do with cleansing and rebirth -- a starting over point, if you will.

I often hear that there is arcaeological evidence for the Biblical flood of Noah fame. I also here people say there are other mythic floods from other mythologies. Can anyone show me evidence of either?

I hear that (acording to abarijini and indian legend) a large continent was sunk somewhare in the south seas.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html


Good one Kat. Thanks.

that many cultures have a flood myth isnt surprising. a flood big enough to remember "forever" occurs often enough in areas that are able to flood. a huge flood makes it seem like the whole world is covered in water.

does anyone look into ancient cultures that DONT have a flood myth? in areas where flooding is close to impossible having a flood that covered the earth for 40 days would be remembered "forever". if they dont remember it, it probably didnt happen.

There is evidence that the biblical flood story is ripped off the babylonian one. The babylonian flood myth is likely based on the flooding of the Black Sea as the water levels rose afte rthe ice age, which would have caused an influx of immigrants to the area who brought the stories of their flood.

The other flood myths are likely based on similar losses of land to water due to the rising sea levels after the ice age. There was enough flooding for it to be noticable and it happened relatively recently, certainly recent enough for our ancestors to remember it.

There is evidence that the biblical flood story is ripped off the babylonian one. The babylonian flood myth is likely based on the flooding of the Black Sea as the water levels rose afte rthe ice age, which would have caused an influx of immigrants to the area who brought the stories of their flood.

The other flood myths are likely based on similar losses of land to water due to the rising sea levels after the ice age. There was enough flooding for it to be noticable and it happened relatively recently, certainly recent enough for our ancestors to remember it.

This is the one I've heard most often. But the curiosity is that I've heard it pretty much like you've said it, and I can't remember having seen the archaelogical or geological evidence. I had a thought that there might be an element of UL to it.

This is the one I've heard most often. But the curiosity is that I've heard it pretty much like you've said it, and I can't remember having seen the archaelogical or geological evidence. I had a thought that there might be an element of UL to it.
UL? please elaborate.

There is some evidence, for one, the ice age ended and the oceans rose after our species spread out all over the world. For another, the aboriginees of australia carry out an oral tradition with hunting grounds and some areas that are transmitted as being land are now ocean. For another, there are walls in the carribean and roads that go into the ocean built by ancient cultures.
There are also villages found at the bottom of the Black Sea.

UL? please elaborate.

I was thinking UL because every version of that I could remember was, more or less a FOAF story. "I saw this show on TV and they talked about some guy who had evidence." and the like.

There is some evidence, for one, the ice age ended and the oceans rose after our species spread out all over the world. For another, the aboriginees of australia carry out an oral tradition with hunting grounds and some areas that are transmitted as being land are now ocean. For another, there are walls in the carribean and roads that go into the ocean built by ancient cultures.
There are also villages found at the bottom of the Black Sea.

Could you point me to any good reputable names to google up for that?

The ocean built by ancient cultures? ;) That's a fun image. Sorry couldn't help that one - just gave me a nice giggle.

I often hear that there is arcaeological evidence for the Biblical flood of Noah fame. I also here people say there are other mythic floods from other mythologies. Can anyone show me evidence of either?

Well, i reckon there is archaeological evidence for that was a flooding event in the Black Sea (around the year 7500BC or so), which very likely was the base for the various deluge myths.

Regarding a literal Deluge according to Genesis, it's impossible due to a huge variety of reasons. Easiest example is that there simply isn't enough water on Earth. Of course, contra all evidence, religious fundamentalists will continue to insist it really happened that way... fools. :p

I was thinking UL because every version of that I could remember was, more or less a FOAF story. "I saw this show on TV and they talked about some guy who had evidence." and the like.
No, I meant that I don't know what you're abbreviating... nor do I know what the FOAF acronym is...

Could you point me to any good reputable names to google up for that?
Not really, I read it in a couple places online, I can't remember how I came accross the stories though, it seems reasonable to me though, the Black sea would be a nice enough place to live if it wasn't under water now and the flooding is supposed to have happened gradually, perhaps look up "black sea flood" or some such for that one. I can't remember if it was the mayans who had roads going off into the sea or not (that's why I said ancient culture... I can't remember if they predated the mayans or not) perhaps a general google search on "great flood" or "flood myths" will turn something up.

The ocean built by ancient cultures? ;) That's a fun image. Sorry couldn't help that one - just gave me a nice giggle.[/QUOTE]

You can't disprove the Flood happened any more than I can prove it.

Here's some of my findings on the flood.
1. There is the ruins of a boat on Mount Ararat in Syria. A team went in and climbed the very treacherous mountain and viewed the decaying reckage, wich, from what I heard, was in decent condition and different parts could be made out. Now, this was a few years ago, and in that time, Syria has not allowed any more teams to explore within the country, which has slowed research considerably.

2. There are clam shells literally all over the world, on top of mountains, everything. They had to get there somehow.

3. It takes a sudden traumatic event to cause fosilization, such as the flood would have been.

4. I've heard that there may not have been enough water as well. I do know that there was a huge amount of water in underground tunnels under the ocean, or something like that, I'm at college and can't get the book.

5. Speculation (not the hardest evidence) suggests that there may have been a water canopy around the earth pre-flood that kept the world moist/ humid generally warmer in more places. It is speculated that it collapsed during the flood, causing drastic climate change, and causing the ice age.

6. To questions on volume capacity: The DNA in creatures allow them to mutate whithin the species (microevolution, no DNA is added). The Bible said to bring 2 of each "kind". So, from 2 dogs, we get all the different breeds we have now, that kind of thing. Consider the amount of space saved by carrying just 2 ants for example. There are thousands of types of ants.
Do you know what your piggy bank is? Its around the life size model of a tricaretops (sp). Baby dinosours save a lot of space.

Hope this helps out

You can't disprove the Flood happened any more than I can prove it.

Tell a geologist that.

Floods leave clearly identifiable evidence of their occurance in the geologic column. Even small scale local floods can be identified that way. Yet somehow the most massive flood in the history of the planet didnt leave a trace of evidence of it's occurance.

Oh, and there's the fact that there's not even close to enough water on the planet to flood it.

And the hundred or so other impossibilities encompassed by the flood story...

But yeah, can't prove the flood never happened... :rolleyes:

There are many floods all around the world, all the time. And when you are in the middle of one it's easy to believe that the entire world has flooded. From there come all the myths about a global flood.

Of course, some floods have been greater than others. The Black Sea flood is one of those. There is geological evidence discovered in recent years through submarine exploration, as well as the composition of the sea at different levels.

It seems that the seas was at some point isolated from the Mediterranean and had a lower level. One of those days the land bride simply broke and the Mediterranean started pouring into the Black sea, rising its level.

Something similar happened to the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, but that was 15 million years ago and there were no humans to see it or record it.

So what my history professor and i talk about when looking at the flood story is the event when the Black sea was block by a massive land barrier. This then broke in the early history of man. Geological evidence small villages under water of the shore of the black sea. This would account for the stories in the western end of the world and the middle east since the water would ahve rose fast several undered feet killing many of the early people in the riegion. Now of course this story was then exagerated to a flood of mythic purporsions.

Sorry it's a short and not totally complete idea.

Well, people who already think the Bible is telling historical fact about the great flood are unlikely to be swayed by little things like geology or evidence, and will likely continue to think the Bible tells historical fact NO MATTER WHAT. This is because the faith-based fundamentalist viewpoint is religious, not scientific, so it's useless to discuss 'proof' or 'evidence' with such viewpoints, especially within a scientific context.

LOL! OMG, just what i assumed what happened. How can you Creationists/Deluge-believers just be so dumb?!?

Here's some of my findings on the flood.
1. There is the ruins of a boat on Mount Ararat in Syria. A team went in and climbed the very treacherous mountain and viewed the decaying reckage, wich, from what I heard, was in decent condition and different parts could be made out. Now, this was a few years ago, and in that time, Syria has not allowed any more teams to explore within the country, which has slowed research considerably.

Those supposed remains of a boat were, to my knowledge, a hoax by Creationists.

2. There are clam shells literally all over the world, on top of mountains, everything. They had to get there somehow.

Geology? Hello? Stratigraphy? The fossil clams you can find in mountains are from limestone sediments, which are former sea floor which was folded into mountains millions of years ago. Btw, there's also plenty of terrestrial sediments which are totally void of marine fossils (but instead have fossils of land animals).

Oh, and you also fail to explain why they are in stratigraphic order (I.e. why trilobites are found only in Paleozoic sediments, dinosaurs and ammonoids only in Mesozoic sediments, and so on).


3. It takes a sudden traumatic event to cause fosilization, such as the flood would have been.

False, fossilization takes millions of years.


4. I've heard that there may not have been enough water as well. I do know that there was a huge amount of water in underground tunnels under the ocean, or something like that, I'm at college and can't get the book.

Underground tunnels filled with water? That's impossible. Best example would be the countless data we have from earthquakes which has offered us a pretty good view of what Earth's interior looks like.


5. Speculation (not the hardest evidence) suggests that there may have been a water canopy around the earth pre-flood that kept the world moist/ humid generally warmer in more places. It is speculated that it collapsed during the flood, causing drastic climate change, and causing the ice age.


That's simply impossible because pre-flood Earth would have had a surface pressure of some 900 bars then, which would have been lethal.


6. To questions on volume capacity: The DNA in creatures allow them to mutate whithin the species (microevolution, no DNA is added). The Bible said to bring 2 of each "kind". So, from 2 dogs, we get all the different breeds we have now, that kind of thing. Consider the amount of space saved by carrying just 2 ants for example. There are thousands of types of ants.
Do you know what your piggy bank is? Its around the life size model of a tricaretops (sp). Baby dinosours save a lot of space.
Hope this helps out

Umm, it takes too long to answer that nonsense, but i'm refering to talk origins here for good measure.

Here's some of my findings on the flood.

This is humor right?

1. There is the ruins of a boat on Mount Ararat in Syria. A team went in and climbed the very treacherous mountain and viewed the decaying reckage, wich, from what I heard, was in decent condition and different parts could be made out. Now, this was a few years ago, and in that time, Syria has not allowed any more teams to explore within the country, which has slowed research considerably.

Yeah, and which of the twenty or so discredited claims of the discovery of "the ark" are you referring to here?

2. There are clam shells literally all over the world, on top of mountains, everything. They had to get there somehow.

And that somehow is called "plate tectonics".

3. It takes a sudden traumatic event to cause fosilization, such as the flood would have been.

Oh yeah, the flood caused fossilization... AND it sorted all the animals in the geologic column before it fossilized them... AND instead of them assorting according to size and density which is how things usually get sorted in such situations they got sorted according to apparent morphological development!

Or you could take the other brilliant creationist explanation I've actually heard used, that the ones that outran the flood longer got buried on top of the ones that didn't... leading us to the conclusion that trees outran velociraptors.

4. I've heard that there may not have been enough water as well. I do know that there was a huge amount of water in underground tunnels under the ocean, or something like that, I'm at college and can't get the book.

Do you have any idea how much additional water we're talking about? About a hundred and fifty TIMES the amount currently stored in the Antarctic AND greenland ice sheets combined ON TOP of what we already know about.

5. Speculation (not the hardest evidence) suggests that there may have been a water canopy around the earth pre-flood that kept the world moist/ humid generally warmer in more places. It is speculated that it collapsed during the flood, causing drastic climate change, and causing the ice age.

And physics (some pretty darn hard evidence) laughs at such a ridiculous idea.

6. To questions on volume capacity: The DNA in creatures allow them to mutate whithin the species (microevolution, no DNA is added).

Then why have we observed DNA being "added" in insertion mutations in our lifetime?

The Bible said to bring 2 of each "kind". So, from 2 dogs, we get all the different breeds we have now, that kind of thing. Consider the amount of space saved by carrying just 2 ants for example. There are thousands of types of ants.

Do you have a clue how many different animals you're still talking about? AND their food? For the better part of a YEAR?

On a freaking WOODEN BOAT?

Do you know what your piggy bank is? Its around the life size model of a tricaretops (sp). Baby dinosours save a lot of space.

Yeah... they preserved all the dinosaurs on the ark... then after they landed they figured out they had nothing to eat so they killed and barbequed them... and that's why there are no dinosaurs today... it all makes sense!

1. There is the ruins of a boat on Mount Ararat in Syria. A team went in and climbed the very treacherous mountain and viewed the decaying reckage, wich, from what I heard, was in decent condition and different parts could be made out. Now, this was a few years ago, and in that time, Syria has not allowed any more teams to explore within the country, which has slowed research considerably.

No there's not. Ararat is in Turkey, not Syria. People have claimed to see something like a boat, but so far no hard evidence has been turned in.

2. There are clam shells literally all over the world, on top of mountains, everything. They had to get there somehow.

Continental drift.

3. It takes a sudden traumatic event to cause fosilization, such as the flood would have been.
Such a flood would have left all fossils in the same stratus, but we find different fossils in different strata.

4. I've heard that there may not have been enough water as well. I do know that there was a huge amount of water in underground tunnels under the ocean, or something like that, I'm at college and can't get the book.
There's a lot of water under the Earth's crust and it gets out from time to time through volcanoes, not rain.

5. Speculation (not the hardest evidence) suggests that there may have been a water canopy around the earth pre-flood that kept the world moist/ humid generally warmer in more places. It is speculated that it collapsed during the flood, causing drastic climate change, and causing the ice age.
The amound of humidity required would have been too high, it would have blocked the sun and generally made it impossible for life on land.

6. To questions on volume capacity: The DNA in creatures allow them to mutate whithin the species (microevolution, no DNA is added). The Bible said to bring 2 of each "kind". So, from 2 dogs, we get all the different breeds we have now, that kind of thing. Consider the amount of space saved by carrying just 2 ants for example. There are thousands of types of ants.
Do you know what your piggy bank is? Its around the life size model of a tricaretops (sp). Baby dinosours save a lot of space.

And where are the dinosaurs now? Or the trilobites? There are many species that didn't just "change" but went completely extinct.

I'm apparently the only idiot...

I'm apparently the only idiot...

Never!

The Bible recorded an actual event, misremembered.

Several thousand years ago it has been found that there was a major flood in the Black Sea area.

I'm apparently the only idiot...
No, you're not. You just posted.

Here's some of my findings on the flood.
1. There is the ruins of a boat on Mount Ararat in Syria. A team went in and climbed the very treacherous mountain and viewed the decaying reckage, wich, from what I heard, was in decent condition and different parts could be made out. Now, this was a few years ago, and in that time, Syria has not allowed any more teams to explore within the country, which has slowed research considerably.
Proof? And a boat that old would hardly be recovnizable as a boat.

2. There are clam shells literally all over the world, on top of mountains, everything. They had to get there somehow.
Plate techtonics.

3. It takes a sudden traumatic event to cause fosilization, such as the flood would have been.
It takes being covered in mud. For clams at the bottom of the ocean, they're already sitting in mud, it just takes some more sediment...

4. I've heard that there may not have been enough water as well. I do know that there was a huge amount of water in underground tunnels under the ocean, or something like that, I'm at college and can't get the book.

5. Speculation (not the hardest evidence) suggests that there may have been a water canopy around the earth pre-flood that kept the world moist/ humid generally warmer in more places. It is speculated that it collapsed during the flood, causing drastic climate change, and causing the ice age.
Now that is just ludicrous.

6. To questions on volume capacity: The DNA in creatures allow them to mutate whithin the species (microevolution, no DNA is added). The Bible said to bring 2 of each "kind". So, from 2 dogs, we get all the different breeds we have now, that kind of thing. Consider the amount of space saved by carrying just 2 ants for example. There are thousands of types of ants.
Do you know what your piggy bank is? Its around the life size model of a tricaretops (sp). Baby dinosours save a lot of space.
There wouldn't be enough generic diversity from two of any animal to pereptuate the species effectively.

I sincerely hope this is a joke.

A flood Occurred... several Myths and Legends talk about a Flood. the Question is Is it the same flood?

think about that time period. the 'World' may be limited to the Region/country thus if there was a large (but not world wide) flood, it still may seem like the whole world.

Here's some of my findings on the flood.
1. There is the ruins of a boat on Mount Ararat in Syria.

LOL, oh and hey, and Mount Ararat is located in Turkey, not Syria! :D

No, I meant that I don't know what you're abbreviating... nor do I know what the FOAF acronym is...


Not really, I read it in a couple places online, I can't remember how I came accross the stories though, it seems reasonable to me though, the Black sea would be a nice enough place to live if it wasn't under water now and the flooding is supposed to have happened gradually, perhaps look up "black sea flood" or some such for that one. I can't remember if it was the mayans who had roads going off into the sea or not (that's why I said ancient culture... I can't remember if they predated the mayans or not) perhaps a general google search on "great flood" or "flood myths" will turn something up.

The ocean built by ancient cultures? ;) That's a fun image. Sorry couldn't help that one - just gave me a nice giggle.[/QUOTE]


Ah, sorry. UL=Urban Legend, FOAF=Friend of a friend (a common way ULs are told).

And can anyone point me to an accurate site about the Black Sea flood?

The Black Sea flood work was done by Dr. Robert Ballard (Titanic fame) on behalf of the Woods Hole Oceagraphic Isnt. and the National Geographic Soc. nationalgeographic.com would probably be a good place to start. I think it was two or three years back that the articles came out, if memory serves.

And yes, the flood myths are in just about every culture that lived around that particular area. Even the Greeks had a version (tied in with Pandora).

Edit: Also of note is that a wooden boat were built to hold two of everything (even just the local everything), the damn thing would be about the size of three or four Titanics. Being made from wood, it would have collasped on itself out of sheer weight.

LMAO
Calvin and Hobbes used to really crack me up.
Cavinists and Hobbs does it even better.
BTW, I saw a bit on the Discover channel on the Black Sea thing.

The Black Sea flood work was done by Dr. Robert Ballard (Titanic fame) on behalf of the Woods Hole Oceagraphic Isnt. and the National Geographic Soc. nationalgeographic.com would probably be a good place to start. I think it was two or three years back that the articles came out, if memory serves.

And yes, the flood myths are in just about every culture that lived around that particular area. Even the Greeks had a version (tied in with Pandora).

Excellent, thank you. :D

I have to say I really liked the theory Isaac Asimov posited in his scholarly work on the bible - that being that a smallish asteroid hit the Indian Ocean resulting in a tidal wave that rushed up the persian gulf and the red sea and caused massive flooding in the middle east. Imagine if you lived in the "fertile cresenct" and one day the Tigris and Euphrates rivers ran "backwards" and had a 30 foot tall wave cruising up them. Then imagane if at the same time, the sky went "black" and it started to rain in torrents (a reasonable side effect of a large meteor hitting the ocean south of you and sending up clouds of steam, ash and vaporized water).

While the idea of a totally world wide flood seems far fetched, the idea of a natural disaster that gave rise to the various flood stories found in multiple mythologies around the globe in that time makes sense and the idea of a meteor strike in the ocean makes for a reasonable explanation of how they came be to be.

I think every culture that lives in an area threatened by tsunami has a flood myth. I know at least one of the tribes on the Western coast of Washington state holds that the Thunderbird lives in one of the glaciers in the Olympics, and when he comes out he shakes the ground (9.0+ subduction zone quakes thank you very much) and causes the water to rise up and rush inland (and launch sneak attacks on Japan).

Then there is the Atlantis myth, and people are pretty sure they've found it in an ancient settlement called Helike.

End of the iceage myths I would think would be common as well. There was a Lake Missoula that was akin to one of the great lakes, and when it's glacier dam broke it released a fantastic torrent of water across a lot of real estate. It's not something stories are handed down about (even if the whitnesses had writing they wouldn't have lived to do any of it), but if it happened once, it probably happened a lot (though perhaps not as spectacularly).

On the Black Sea version which so many people brought up. Given the area that's now submerged, I can see how the people of the time would declare it the whole world and call it good.

Floods are one of the few natural disasters that can occur absolutely anywhere, given the period of time we're talking about, it'd be more surprising if every ancient culture didn't have them. They're extremely important economic events for people, even today, how to deal with them, and that a people survived them in the past is important infromation to pass on. Even if those doing the passing might not have the benefit of our more informed perspective.

google-fu wise, I'd suggest "flood myths" corroborate -creationist -evolutionist

That should knock out a lot of the religious debate crap. Removing the quotes would provide a lot more results, many of them relevant. Finally, one could probably use various forms of corroborate, since in case googles word stemming doesn't do more before 9am than most people do all day. Even "flood myths" "many cultures" could return a few interesting surveys.

Egypt does not have a recorded history of an all-consuming flood, and they had a high and cool civ at that time. The Black Sea and Med. stories are good, it would be nice if they found some evidence of human settlements like, 300 ft. below sea level. As far as other cultures worldwide, many do have flood myths, but that does not mean that they happened at the same time, nor that they consumed the entire world. More so that they consumed the world as the people knew it. Many people did not travel far from thier homes, so a big flood comes along, and bang YOUR whole world is washed away, so why not assume that the rest is too? Imagine a real worldwide flood that consumed the world to the top of Mt. Everest. Where would all of that water come from? Not glaciers and icecaps. Where would it go afterwards?
The point about water as a universal solvent and the gushing of amniotic fluid is essential to flood mythology, because a cleansing and rebirth are exactly what you find in Noah's story, in the epic of Gilgamesh, and in the Babylonian story.
Now, the importance of the flood story does not diminish because of the fact that there is no geological evidence for a world-wide flood. The basic mythology stays the same. It is a safe bet that Jesus was not born on 25 December AD 1, but we celebrate the day anyway. Does it make it less important?