NationStates Jolt Archive

Many threads on this forum debate the US war in Iraq and its war on terror. One conflict often forgotten in the West is Chechnya. Many thousands have died, many more will die. I don't know what others outside of the Russian Federation think, but I think that Chechnya should not get independence.

The reason I oppose Chechnyan independence is mainly that it would most likely be even more unstable. Who would become leader of an independent Chechnya? With all the different factions now united against the Russians, it is likely that they would start fighting each other for power. Much like what happened after the Soviet Union left Afghanistan.

Putin has also made very good points, comparing having Russian troops in Chechnya as the US having troops in California or Florida. Plus of course he responded to demands for negotiations with Chechnyans by asking why the US doesn't ask bin Ladin what he wants to leave them in peace.

I don't like how western media and politicians treat the conflict, after the Beslan school massacre it seemed they blamed Russian security forces for the deaths of hundreds of civilians. Granted, the Russian forces in Chechnya(and Russia in general) have proven themself not to be all that good.

I think Russia is on the right track and I hope the Chechnyan terrorists will be hunted down so the region can once again be stabilised.

You're right ... I don't think about Chechnia very often at all, primarily because it seems to be a matter for Russia to handle.

The Russians are dealing with their own terrorists ala the Chechnians. I say leave them to it, as they should allow the US to do the same.

The Russians are dealing with their own terrorists ala the Chechnians. I say leave them to it, as they should allow the US to do the same.
Like they have a choice???

I still think the Russian Bear lost its teeth somewhere

The Russians are dealing with their own terrorists ala the Chechnians. I say leave them to it, as they should allow the US to do the same.
Uhm....first... the US doesn't have any 'terrorists' in their own country, so you can't really compare the two.
and second... am I the only one who thinks this war is not okay and that Chechnya should be granted independance?

Uhm....first... the US doesn't have any 'terrorists' in their own country, so you can't really compare the two.
and second... am I the only one who thinks this war is not okay and that Chechnya should be granted independance?

We did and likely still do. They come in over the boarders. That's how the 1993 and 2001 WTC attacks occurred.

It's not the first time Chechnya and Russia have fought, either.

We did and likely still do. They come in over the boarders. That's how the 1993 and 2001 WTC attacks occurred.

In saying you can't compare the US and the Russian-Chechen conflict, I meant that while Chechnya is in Russia, the US fights 'their terrorists' outside. I do think that's a big difference.

In saying you can't compare the US and the Russian-Chechen conflict, I meant that while Chechnya is in Russia, the US fights 'their terrorists' outside. I do think that's a big difference.

That's a fortunate circumstance.

The US has been very lucky that it's own terrorists (ala McVeigh) are small in number, and that they are not fighting for an easily accepted common cause.

Russia, to me, is Chechnyas only hope to ever become successful and prosperous. I'm not saying that Russia is... but what does Chechnya have to offer the world? Absolutely nothing. At all. It's surrounded, if I recall, on 3/4 sides, by Russia, the other side being the sea. It's politically unstable, which will only get worse if Russia leaves. It's a no hoper with no chance of supporting itself economically, except as a part of a greater whole. If Russia leaves, things won't get better for them, they'll have kissed their last chance of improving their land good-bye. it'll be just as bad, and get worse.*

Secondly, with regards to the Beslan siege. I'd love to see the Americans handle that situation any better.... That was a loss/loss right from the beginning. The most they could hope to do was save as many as possible. Personally I think even the SAS would have been hard pressed to salvage anything from that and the Russian forces made an admirable effort.

*Note, this is said in a position of significant ignorance of Checnya bar whatever knowledge I have managed to accumulate.

However, I believe that Russia treats Chechnya unfairly. Putins example of the U.S stationing forces in california and florida is invalid, as the U.S. does not treat them as second class client states/territorial holdings where their rights are trampled on as a matter of course. Russia treats Chechnya that way. Their bitterness and hostility, to that extent, is justified.

... but what does Chechnya have to offer the world? Absolutely nothing.
Nothing much. It just has important oil deposits, as well as natural gas, limestone, gypsum, sulphur, and other minerals. Not to mention it's in the path of major oil pipelines to the Caspian sea.

Nothing much. It just has important oil deposits, as well as natural gas, limestone, gypsum, sulphur, and other minerals. Not to mention it's in the path of major oil pipelines to the Caspian sea.

Quack. I acknowledged my basic ignorance of Chechnya in my original post. But all that doesn't a rich country make, if it needs to spend it all on food imports. The fertility of chechen soil is much to be desired, no?

Quack. I acknowledged my basic ignorance of Chechnya in my original post. But all that doesn't a rich country make, if it needs to spend it all on food imports. The fertility of chechen soil is much to be desired, no?

How would they spend it all on food imports? Blue lobster and truffles?

The fertility of chechen soil is much to be desired, no?Actually, no. To my knowledge, they export wine. So that to me indicates they have good soil.

Chechnya cannot be allowed independence, or else every Islamofascist wacko will feel emboldened, and it'd be a great rallying cry. However, Russia needs to change its tactics. The Russians currently prefer fighting the same way they did in Afghanistan: lauch missiles at them, call in artillery strikes, and wipe troublesome towns and villages off the map. Not only does this strategy kill civilians, but it is suicide for the Russians. They need to beef up their special forces and intelligence services in that area.

Chechnya, I believe, has its own culture. Its is Islamic and differs from Russia. Georgia, Azerbaijan, and others were considered Russian in the days of the USSR, but actaully had different cultures and languages. I think they should be allowed independence, but I don't want the US to interfere. From a Russian point of view it is unwise to grant them independence because Russia is a federation of collected territories.

Uhm....first... the US doesn't have any 'terrorists' in their own country, so you can't really compare the two.
and second... am I the only one who thinks this war is not okay and that Chechnya should be granted independance?
Who says the US doesn't have any terrorists?

Nothing much. It just has important oil deposits, as well as natural gas, limestone, gypsum, sulphur, and other minerals. Not to mention it's in the path of major oil pipelines to the Caspian sea.

Dont they have Uranium deposits as well.

The truth is, of course, that nobody understands this viscious conflict, least of all the Russkis. I don't like to see a small country being mangled by a powerful one but it's true to say that Chechnyan gangsters and terrorists are much feared in Russia. I rather think this war will drag on for a very longtime until one side is exhausted (don't assume it'll be the Chechnyans) and just rolls over.

First of all, I'm sick of everyone calling Chechnyan independence movement troops 'terrorists'. Sure, they took over the school in Beslan and the theatre in Moscow some years back. But tell me this, what's worse, taking over a place to force political demands and firing few shots like the Chechnyans, or bombing entire villages like the Russians and killing millions of men, women, and children to end seperatist sentiments. Besides, the Russian troops who raided the two places killed a large portion of the civilians in the Moscow theatre incident and who knows how many kids during the Beslan raid! So who're the terrorists now, the Chechnyans? I'm sure we can now say it's the Russians. Also, the biggest reason Russia is not willing to give up Chechnya is because of the mineral and fossil fuel deposits in the area. Russia doesn't want to lose a significant portion of its industry; they've already lost Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia.

First of all, I'm sick of everyone calling Chechnyan independence movement troops 'terrorists'. Sure, they took over the school in Beslan and the theatre in Moscow some years back. But tell me this, what's worse, taking over a place to force political demands and firing few shots like the Chechnyans, or bombing entire villages like the Russians and killing millions of men, women, and children to end seperatist sentiments. Besides, the Russian troops who raided the two places killed a large portion of the civilians in the Moscow theatre incident and who knows how many kids during the Beslan raid! So who're the terrorists now, the Chechnyans? I'm sure we can now say it's the Russians. Also, the biggest reason Russia is not willing to give up Chechnya is because of the mineral and fossil fuel deposits in the area. Russia doesn't want to lose a significant portion of its industry; they've already lost Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia.

Unfortunately for you, the Chechnyan freedom fighters are terrorists. Look up the definition in a dictionary. Neither side has a higher moral ground, both have killed innocents for their 'cause'. The fact that the Russian security forces are incompetent does not relieve the Chechnyans of their guilt.

Chechnya cannot be allowed independence, or else every Islamofascist wacko will feel emboldened, and it'd be a great rallying cry.

the fundies only gained a foothold there because of the insane russian response to the chechens exercising their right to self-determination, killing off the moderates and such.

for allah!!!!!!!!!!

As far as I understand form the Russian viewpoint: After the fall of the USSR the new Russian government decided that it could not give up land, especially not in Caucasus. Chechnya is not economically significant, bordering areas are though. The pipeline in Chechnya is not used any more, they built a new one because of the war.

How can "freedom fighters" motivate attacks against civilians(I think Beslan is the worst)? They could just attack military targets. Granted, they would actually have to fight. School kids are not likely to repel armed terrorists. In fact I would be surprised if they did. I think that the average Chechnyan would just want the fighting to end, regardless wheather they are officially Russians or Chechnyans. You know, before the first war there were hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russians living in Chechnya. They fled from the Chechnyans or were sometimes killed.

When people disappear in Chechnya it might be either Russians or Chechnyans. Both sides are ruthless, that is understandable in war. The North Vietnamese weren't nice when they fought the Americans, and of course neither were the Americans. Same with Afghanistan. In a modern war everyone is affected. Three hundred years ago wars were much friendlier!

Uhm....first... the US doesn't have any 'terrorists' in their own country, so you can't really compare the two.
and second... am I the only one who thinks this war is not okay and that Chechnya should be granted independance?
Yes, of course there are terrorists in the US. That's why they have the Patriot Act 1 and 2.
Anyone see Weapons of Mass Deception on SBS a few weeks ago? That interview with the man who's son was imprisoned made me cry like a wussypants.

Chechnyan
IT'S CHECHEN YOU IDIOT!

Sorry, I had to say that.

Well I think they should be independent. And what Muslim nation isn't made up of warring factions?

Unfortunately for you, the Chechnyan freedom fighters are terrorists. Look up the definition in a dictionary. Neither side has a higher moral ground, both have killed innocents for their 'cause'. The fact that the Russian security forces are incompetent does not relieve the Chechnyans of their guilt.

I don't think you really want to invoke the textbook definition of terrorism, as that would also include "Shock and Awe" in Iraq. Yes, that constitutes politically motivated violence against civilian populations.

It's all good though. We're going to make up for it by bringing Freedom(cue music) to Iraq.

Like all irredentist movements (or so it seems), the Chechen separatists were radicalised by state violence. I do understand the Russian position though: if Chechnya successfully secedes, then South(?) Ossetia, Dagestan and a couple of other regions will try and follow. The whole Caucusus region seems to have 'flashpoint' written all over it.

And the definition of terrorism is somewhat problematic, to say the least. I'd be careful about using it so freely as I suspect most people - myself included - have little idea of what is really taking place in Russia and Chechnya.

How can "freedom fighters" motivate attacks against civilians(I think Beslan is the worst)? They could just attack military targets. Granted, they would actually have to fight. School kids are not likely to repel armed terrorists. In fact I would be surprised if they did. I think that the average Chechnyan would just want the fighting to end, regardless wheather they are officially Russians or Chechnyans.

I agree. They're there to suicide. They know the consequences already for taking hostage, PUtin's aint going to negotiate. Plus they tie their women with bombs. So that they suicide (Which most of the time, the women chicken out, and they get caught, like in the music hall & Beslan school).

[QUOTE=Khudros]I don't think you really want to invoke the textbook definition of terrorism, as that would also include "Shock and Awe" in Iraq. Yes, that constitutes politically motivated violence against civilian populations.

I couldn't agree more. The US is currently the biggest terrorist agent on Earth.

I still think the Russian Bear lost its teeth somewhere
Yeah right, the Russians have killed like a quarter of the popluation of Chechneya (200,000+ people). Chechneya isn't really part of Russia and Russia should take the hint and get the fuck out.

Yeah right, the Russians have killed like a quarter of the popluation of Chechneya (200,000+ people). Chechneya isn't really part of Russia and Russia should take the hint and get the fuck out.

That much is true. It borders on genocide.

That much is true. It borders on genocide.

in terms of percentage of the total population killed, we're talking near pol pot levels here.