NationStates Jolt Archive

The US has approx 300 Million citizens and represents 6% of the world's population. On the other hand, the US use 25% of the world's oil production for their economy and to fuel cars very cheaply. The daily amount the US uses is 20,9 Million barrels! Half of this is for car fuel alone! That means that US car owners use 1/9th of the daily world production of 84 million barrels just to fuel their SUVs and whatnot.The US produces 5,5 Million barrels per day, so a lot of the oil that the US uses needs to be imported. The US Strategic Oil Reserve currently has 600 Million barrels in case of geopolitical crisis.

US car producers sell more and more minivans, pickups or SUVs, trend increasing. Current American cars use 12 liters of fuel per 100 kilometers distance, trend increasing quickly! Trying to sell smaller cars or cars that use less fuel is futile in the US.

Despite the globally increasing prices for crude oil, the US fuel price is very cheap with approx. 0,46 Euro per liter. Yet the US congress and the White House don't move a finger to reduce the impossibly huge oil consumption of the US, steering their country and the rest of the world into a global energy crisis.

My source: http://onwirtschaft.t-online.de/c/40/02/84/4002840.html
(German News Agency)

Even if the US government tried to rein in the oil crisis, what good do you think it would do?

The entire US economy rests upon foundatations created from crude oil. Without it, the nation would collapse.

The consumption rate may be high, but there is no real plausible alternative for the USA besides nuclear power.

If you think that oil sends environmentalists crazy, just imagine what widespread nuclear power would do.

Even if the US government tried to rein in the oil crisis, what good do you think it would do?

The entire US economy rests upon foundatations created from crude oil. Without it, the nation would collapse.

The consumption rate may be high, but there is no real plausible alternative for the USA besides nuclear power.

If you think that oil sends environmentalists crazy, just imagine what widespread nuclear power would do.

So the solution is to put your head in the sand and hope the crisis never happens?

Before any american takes this thread as an accusation or a flame think this:

by being the largest world oil consumer, and by being so dependent on it, you will also be the one's that will also be it hardest when oil prices start to increase.

Last I heard: 315USD per barril by 2015.

So the solution is to put your head in the sand and hope the crisis never happens?
No. I didn't suggest that. That's what's happening, but it's not what I suggested.

What needs to be done would involve massive cutbacks in all areas of the american lifestyle.

Less cars.

Less electricity.

More efficient devices.

Less waste.

That ain't going to happen if any government wants to get reelected. It's a deadlock- you do somehtign about it, you get kicked out of office. You don't do anythign about it, the entire country goes to pot.

I'm Canadian, and I must say that per capita, we are just as bad as the US. I therefore agree we must change our ways! I know of people who get a drive for one block (ONE BLOCK!) to get to school in the morning. Our society has become lazy, and oil consumption is on the rise because of that.

No. I didn't suggest that. That's what's happening, but it's not what I suggested.

What needs to be done would involve massive cutbacks in all areas of the american lifestyle.

Less cars.

Less electricity.

More efficient devices.

Less waste.

That ain't going to happen if any government wants to get reelected. It's a deadlock- you do somehtign about it, you get kicked out of office. You don't do anythign about it, the entire country goes to pot.

And some investment in renewable technologies for power generation.
The world's supply of liquid dinosaur is not infinite.

New cars should be more fuel efficient and old gas guzzlers should be converted to more efficient cars.

I don't think it's "unfair" as much as "stupid".

Even ignoring the Oil Crash, it's still stupid because it puts you at the mercy of the Oil Companies and, ultimately, of the corrupt Middle Eastern regimes that sell you the oil. Why do you think Saudi Arabia got away with attacking the US on September 11th? As long as you're still dependent on their oil, they're going to continue walking all over you.

How is the concept of "fairness" applicable to consumption? As long as the oil is lawfully bought at the global market, it's fair. Efficiency is a whole other question.

Energy can be produced just as efficiently with solar power, wind or water power plants. We do this to a large degree in Germany and our renewable energy sources have been increasing since the 1990s. The technology needed for that and the amount of jobs it creates are very good for national economy aswell. In Germany the amount of new jobs in the renewable energy sector is estimated to be 400.000 until 2020.

If the US do not act rather soon, they'll have a big problem, as will most other countries, because oil is way too important for the world economy without any reliable alternative at this time!

Ein Deutscher']The US has approx 300 Million citizens and represents 6% of the world's population. On the other hand, the US use 25% of the world's oil production for their economy and to fuel cars very cheaply. The daily amount the US uses is 20,9 Million barrels! Half of this is for car fuel alone! That means that US car owners use 1/9th of the daily world production of 84 million barrels just to fuel their SUVs and whatnot.The US produces 5,5 Million barrels per day, so a lot of the oil that the US uses needs to be imported. The US Strategic Oil Reserve currently has 600 Million barrels in case of geopolitical crisis.

US car producers sell more and more minivans, pickups or SUVs, trend increasing. Current American cars use 12 liters of fuel per 100 kilometers distance, trend increasing quickly! Trying to sell smaller cars or cars that use less fuel is futile in the US.

Despite the globally increasing prices for crude oil, the US fuel price is very cheap with approx. 0,46 Euro per liter. Yet the US congress and the White House don't move a finger to reduce the impossibly huge oil consumption of the US, steering their country and the rest of the world into a global energy crisis.

My source: http://onwirtschaft.t-online.de/c/40/02/84/4002840.html
(German News Agency)

It's fine. The US is most likely gonna crash within the decade due to peak oil anyway. The US let itself become this addicted, it's their responsibility to get out of it. It's not JUST them, but they're a large part of the worldwide problem - when the US goes, there goes the global economy.

this petrodollar system is addicted to greed.it is now oil,but it could be power(for what i know).It is illusion and we all make a part of it....Heil lobies,and their faschist regime,Amen :p

It's fine. The US is most likely gonna crash within the decade due to peak oil anyway. The US let itself become this addicted, it's their responsibility to get out of it. It's not JUST them, but they're a large part of the worldwide problem - when the US goes, there goes the global economy.
as well as global hypocracy ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29)

Earth's GDP: $44,168,157 million USD
USA's GDP: $12,438,873 million USD

So: The United States is 28.1625% of the PLANET'S economy.

Therefore, using 25% of planet's oil consuption is not only FINE, it's NECESSARY for the planetary economy at this time.

...now I'm not saying that it's the best situation. Fortunatley, hybrid vehicles are becoming more popular, and nuclear energy is being promoted again. And American homes are being built with insulation and other energy-saving devices. (My home (built in 1957) orginally had no insulation and plain, single-pane windows. I've fixed that, as have many Americans. :) )

But anyone with a "holier than thou" attitude can check it at the door, please. :)

---

PS- Before the EU folks get uppity: Yes, combined, the EU has about the same share of the world's economy, and uses 19% of the oil.

However, one must also consider that unlike the US, the EU is a VERY recent creation, and not a nation.
Further, one also must consider that some EU members (IE: Poland, Portugal) use far less than others (France, Italy), which also skews the average. It's also not like the standard of living in the EU is standardized, yet. Once that happens, you'll see EU and US fuel usage even out.

whats fair got to do with it?

to quote a still-living former president of the US...

life is unfair

It's fine. The US is most likely gonna crash within the decade due to peak oil anyway. The US let itself become this addicted, it's their responsibility to get out of it. It's not JUST them, but they're a large part of the worldwide problem - when the US goes, there goes the global economy.

You're on the right track, but consider:

* The US didn't let itself become addicted, and more than any other nation. The difference is that the US was the only developed nation on Earth that was left (mostly) unscathed by two world wars. It also (unlike Canada) had the population to create the post-war economic boom.

* The US economy won't crash: there are simply too many safeguards, and the world economy is too interdependent these days (as you pointed out). The realignment of the Euro to the Dollar and the current economic climate bear this out.

* The current high oil prices will likely peak and then begin to fall over then next 18 months, should Iraq continue to stabilize.

* The US actually uses less oil (per dollar) than it did in 1977, as much of our industry is now in Mexico and China. (I'm NOT happy about that, but there it is.) In fact, if those damned SUVs never came about, we'd have 2-9% more fuel available and lower prices.

You might find this interesting: http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid320.php

"We almost displaced Gulf oil imports anyway. From 1977 to 1986, the rise in U.S. oil productivity averaged 5 percent per year—80 percent faster than needed to keep up with both economic growth and the decline in domestic oil extraction. Oil imports fell by half. Had the United States just maintained that pace, it would have needed no Persian Gulf oil from 1986 on."

PS- Before the EU folks get uppity: Yes, combines, the EU has about the same share of the world's economy, and uses 11% of the oil.

However, one must also consider that unlike the US, the EU is a VERY recent creation, and not a nation.
the EU is recent, but you the countries that make it up aren't and its the figure from all the countries that make the EU figures, therefore the base of the EU is actually much older the the USA and so is doing a much better and more responcible job.

Further, one also must consider that some EU members (IE: Poland, Portugal) use far less than others (France, Italy), which also skews the average. It's also not like the standard of living in the EU is standardized, yet. Once that happens, you'll see EU and US fuel usage even out.
Generally poorer countries use a higher percentage of fossil fuels than wealthier countries due to the high cost of establishment (Building wind farms or solar panels cost much more than building an oil furnace) so the poorer countries in the EU should make its figure significantly worse, making the EU a lot worse than the US.

My voting option wasn't in the list. :(

It's fine where it is, BUT I'm suprised it isn't higher. It should be (not because being higher is -good-, but rather it makes little sense that it isn't higher).

Ein Deutscher']Energy can be produced just as efficiently with solar power, wind or water power plants.
No it can't be. Efficiency rates of wind power is absolutely not comparable with fossil fuel based power. Solar power requires HUGE initial investments and is dependand on the country's geographical location (Speaking of which: the US DOES have an experimental solar power station, and so does the South Africa. How many solar power stations does the EU have? Thought so.)
Water power plants can only be built at specific locations and are ecologically problematic. Plus, neither of these can replace oil as a fuel source or as a chemical industry raw material- two primary reasons for high consumption. In fact, there's NOTHING to replace oil with in these two areas.


We do this to a large degree in Germany and our renewable energy sources have been increasing since the 1990s. The technology needed for that and the amount of jobs it creates are very good for national economy aswell. In Germany the amount of new jobs in the renewable energy sector is estimated to be 400.000 until 2020.
And this is one of the reasons why Germany is in the middle of a huge economic crisis right now- because for all sorts of ideological reasons they keep manufacturing high salary jobs that are economically unnecessery.

my question is what would happen to the middle east economies when/if the US slows or stops the consumption of their oil. with one major buyer out of the market, they will raise the prioes for the other buyers to retain their own profits. if you think fuel prices are high now, wait til a major player is out of the market and see how high the will go

Like i said several times US car engines are oversized...

whats fair got to do with it?
exactamente...

Fair is not the word I would use.

Think what would happen to somewhere like Dubai if the USA found a viable alternative to oil... It's in the midst of a growth boom, completely fuelled by oil trade. It'd just collapse.

And this is one of the reasons why Germany is in the middle of a huge economic crisis right now....

:confused:

the EU is recent, but you the countries that make it up aren't and its the figure from all the countries that make the EU figures, therefore the base of the EU is actually much older the the USA and so is doing a much better and more responcible job.

Of course Europe is older than the United States. No one is going to question that. But why are they "doing a more responsible job"?
**THEY'RE SMALL**.
Germany is smaller than Montana, but has 82 million people!
France is only two Colorados, but has60.5 million people!

The US has 9,161,923 sq km of land. That's *more than double* the size of the EU at 3,976,372 sq km.

Simply put, the EU has population density (mass transit is only economical in cities) on it's side!

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2174rank.html
...the US isn't that far ahead of the EU in oil consumption...

Generally poorer countries use a higher percentage of fossil fuels than wealthier countries due to the high cost of establishment (Building wind farms or solar panels cost much more than building an oil furnace) so the poorer countries in the EU should make its figure significantly worse, making the EU a lot worse than the US.

They use a higher percentage per capita, MAYBE (depending on the nation's situation), but not in general. France and Germany lead the EU in oil consumption, which makes sense, as they are the two largest economies. Note that on the above link that Germany and France are far and away ahead of Poland or Portugal in consumption.

Oil consumption in the world today is a direct outgrowth of economic strength.

Like i said several times US car engines are oversized...


That depends on where you are. A Chrysler 300 is oversized for city driving or Kansas, sure. But not in places like New England or California where you must deal with hills and mountains.

Now, I'm not saying that the Alps, Carpathians, etc aren't considerable.

But *in general* I'd have to say that the US has to contend with them more often. If you want to get to the west coast, one must go through the Rockies. And, being Americans, we're wont to do that more often than (say) Danes are to go to Italy. ;)

... where you must deal with hills and mountains...in Spain,France, Italy, Swizerland,Austria, Greece, Hungary,etc thay do not buy the Dodge 300...

They buy smaller engines...

in north Italy and Swizerland thay do not buy the Dodge 300...

No, but I saw a few in Zakopane (Carpathian Mountains), with Polish, German and one Italian license plate. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29)

Earth's GDP: $44,168,157 million USD
USA's GDP: $12,438,873 million USD

So: The United States is 28.1625% of the PLANET'S economy.

Therefore, using 25% of planet's oil consuption is not only FINE, it's NECESSARY for the planetary economy at this time.

...now I'm not saying that it's the best situation. Fortunatley, hybrid vehicles are becoming more popular, and nuclear energy is being promoted again. And American homes are being built with insulation and other energy-saving devices. (My home (built in 1957) orginally had no insulation and plain, single-pane windows. I've fixed that, as have many Americans. :) )

But anyone with a "holier than thou" attitude can check it at the door, please. :)

---

PS- Before the EU folks get uppity: Yes, combined, the EU has about the same share of the world's economy, and uses 19% of the oil.

However, one must also consider that unlike the US, the EU is a VERY recent creation, and not a nation.
Further, one also must consider that some EU members (IE: Poland, Portugal) use far less than others (France, Italy), which also skews the average. It's also not like the standard of living in the EU is standardized, yet. Once that happens, you'll see EU and US fuel usage even out.
Put it in PPP forms...1/6th of the total output. EU is roughly the same, China close behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29

(China messes up its exchange rate, you have to use PPP)

Put it in PPP forms...1/6th of the total output. EU is roughly the same, China close behind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29

(China messes up its exchange rate, you have to use PPP)

You mean 1/5th, right? (12.323/63.419= ~19.44%) :)

Actually, using PPP is even better for my arguement than GDP: the US economy is the same size as the EU, yet it's only using 6% more oil than the EU to provide fuel/energy to people on double the landmass.

That's pretty good if you ask me.

Shoot. If we could get rid of SUVs, build some more nuke plants and get a rail system that worked, the situation might be reversed! :D

in Spain,France, Italy, Swizerland,Austria, Greece, Hungary,etc thay do not buy the Dodge 300...

They buy smaller engines...Dodge300 flagship engine is being heavily adverised here...
its called a "Hemi engine" eveyone here has heard about it...
"all you need to know is...its got a Hemi under the hood"
"That Thang Got a Hemi?".

but I would never advertise it in Europe. It would be a disgraceful waste... millions$$$ in TVads.

You mean 1/5th, right? (12.323/63.419= ~19.44%) :)

Actually, using PPP is even better for my arguement than GDP: the US economy is the same size as the EU, yet it's only using 6% more oil than the EU to provide fuel/energy to people on double the landmass.

That's pretty good if you ask me.

Shoot. If we could get rid of SUVs, build some more nuke plants and get a rail system that worked, the situation might be reversed! :D
Shush >.>

It's a bit early in the morning. Er...its noon, but I just woke up :p

You think that's unfair?

Wait 10 years and watch the Chinese consumption...

The only unfair thing I think is Americans whining over their gas prices, which are surely NOT high. Come to Europe and fuel up here, then you can cry.

Ein Deutscher']The US has approx 300 Million citizens and represents 6% of the world's population. On the other hand, the US use 25% of the world's oil production for their economy and to fuel cars very cheaply. The daily amount the US uses is 20,9 Million barrels! Half of this is for car fuel alone! That means that US car owners use 1/9th of the daily world production of 84 million barrels just to fuel their SUVs and whatnot.The US produces 5,5 Million barrels per day, so a lot of the oil that the US uses needs to be imported. The US Strategic Oil Reserve currently has 600 Million barrels in case of geopolitical crisis.

US car producers sell more and more minivans, pickups or SUVs, trend increasing. Current American cars use 12 liters of fuel per 100 kilometers distance, trend increasing quickly! Trying to sell smaller cars or cars that use less fuel is futile in the US.

Despite the globally increasing prices for crude oil, the US fuel price is very cheap with approx. 0,46 Euro per liter. Yet the US congress and the White House don't move a finger to reduce the impossibly huge oil consumption of the US, steering their country and the rest of the world into a global energy crisis.

My source: http://onwirtschaft.t-online.de/c/40/02/84/4002840.html
(German News Agency)
Oil is a limited resource and will run out a lot sooner than most people think. Can you say "alternative fuel development" boys and girls???

Oil is a limited resource and will run out a lot sooner than most people think. Can you say "alternative fuel development" boys and girls???

I can, so can Iceland, they're already testrunning public busses with alternative fuel (note: TEST-running, it's far from fully developed).

Dodge300 flagship engine is being heavily adverised here...
its called a "Hemi engine" eveyone here has heard about it..."all you need to know is...its got a Hemi under the hood".

but I would never advertise it in Europe. It would be a disgraceful waste... millions$$$ in TVads.

I've seen them on the streets of Vienna, Prague, and Krakow. But then, the do stand out from the Skodas and VWs. :)

Too late: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedan/112_0401_first_chry/

whats fair got to do with it?

to quote a still-living former president of the US...

life is unfair

Say that when we have run out of Oil thanks to the Americans

more on the Chrysler 300 flagship engine...

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-16-hemi_x.htm

"...a V-8 (5700cc) Hemi engine has nothing to do with fuel economy. It s all about that intoxicating feeling when he mashes down the accelerator.."

You think that's unfair?

Wait 10 years and watch the Chinese consumption...If they choose to buy US humongous sized cars...you wont have to wait that long :D

I say lets get over withit...
Lets launch a mother-of-all TVcampaingns to promote the "Hemi" in China...

*evil laugh*

Hey, if you don't want us to use the oil, don't sell it to us. Simple as that.

Ein Deutscher']Energy can be produced just as efficiently with solar power, wind or water power plants. We do this to a large degree in Germany and our renewable energy sources have been increasing since the 1990s. The technology needed for that and the amount of jobs it creates are very good for national economy aswell. In Germany the amount of new jobs in the renewable energy sector is estimated to be 400.000 until 2020.

If the US do not act rather soon, they'll have a big problem, as will most other countries, because oil is way too important for the world economy without any reliable alternative at this time!

First, solar, wind, and water are not and probably will never be as "efficient" as simply burning coal, oil, or gas, or nuclear. While renewables can and eventually will generate a large share of the world's electricity, their inherent disadvantages are still formidable and some simply cannot be worked around (damn sun doesn't come up at night). Second, the expansion of German's renewable sector, while admirable, has been almost 100% due to the full support of the Green Socialist Democrats who control the government and put forth massive subsidies, as well as forced electricity companies to purchase power from Jan Ordinaryfellow's lonely wind turbine in the backyard.

I agree that German's renewable energy growth has been admirable and should be emulated by other developed countries, but it isn't because alternative energy is all that great, and it isn't because alternative energy has really boosted the economy. You need to thank your progressive government for forcing it on the energy industry instead.

Hopefully, by the time the real oil crisis hits, we will have enough nuclear power to convert enough biomass into enough oil to keep the really necessary needs fulfilled. (http://www.ensyn.com/what/whatwedo.htm)

I think you imply in your post that your warped definition of "fair" means "equal".It doesn't matter if US oil consumption is "fair" or not. All that matters is whether or not it is paid for at a price mutually agreed upon by consumers and suppliers. That applies for anything being sold to any nation.
And because of this, I refuse to take part in your twisted little poll.

I can, so can Iceland, they're already testrunning public busses with alternative fuel (note: TEST-running, it's far from fully developed).

Large fleets(eg public buses, maybe ups ect) in the US already use alternative fuels such as natural gas and others. India does too. Nothing so new about that

Even if the US government tried to rein in the oil crisis, what good do you think it would do?

The entire US economy rests upon foundatations created from crude oil. Without it, the nation would collapse.

The consumption rate may be high, but there is no real plausible alternative for the USA besides nuclear power.

If you think that oil sends environmentalists crazy, just imagine what widespread nuclear power would do.

Coal dear, coal. We have vast reserves of coal. Not that the environmentalists will be any less bitchy about that, but hey.

Coal dear, coal. We have vast reserves of coal. Not that the environmentalists will be any less bitchy about that, but hey.

Its a shame too, new technology makes coal very clean

Ein Deutscher']
If the US do not act rather soon, they'll have a big problem, as will most other countries, because oil is way too important for the world economy without any reliable alternative at this time!
No matter what happens with oil, it won't affect anyone as much as it did in the oil crises of the 1970s. Since that time, far less oil is needed for each unit of GDP. It is greatest, of course, in Western Europe, but this has been happening in the US, Japan, and Singapore as well. Only the seriously oil intensive economies, like Pakistan and Turkey, are in any serious danger.

Originally Posted by Greater Yubari
I can, so can Iceland, they're already testrunning public busses with alternative fuel (note: TEST-running, it's far from fully developed).
In fact, Iceland's goal is to be oil-free by 2050.

http://www.newstarget.com/003492.html

But it might be simple for Iceland to do since it's about the size of Kentucky and the population is only 295,000.

Guess they won't be using plastic anymore, either.

Plastics guarantee a minimum oil use until the emergence of strong, viable bioplastics.

Hazards related to nuclear power guarantee that auto transit will be oil-driven for a while yet.

Fuel cell is not nearly economically sound, battery cars are too problematic, and synthetic oil will probably never be available in the necessary quantities to drive as many cars as there are now, let alone those that will be around when the method is viable, and the pollution issue still remains.

As for main generation: Yes, nuclear power works. Hazardous, but functional, but there's a limited amount of fissionable material available. Wind and solar, not so much, given the initial energy cost and the fact that they only run for about half the day. Hydroelectric (whether dam or tidal) is pretty effective; however, there's always environmentalist whining involved, and the effect of blowing up a dam; there's also a limited number of rivers and seas.

At the end of the day, we're going to need either fusion (if it can ever be made to work) or something that is rather more abusive of physical laws.

If they choose to buy US humongous sized cars...you wont have to wait that long :D

I say lets get over withit...
Lets launch a mother-of-all TVcampaingns to promote the "Hemi" in China...

*evil laugh*
Nah, for quickest fuel consumption you'd want the rotary engine from Mazda's RX series. It gets shitty gas mileage and burns through engine oil faster than anything else.

Fuel cell is not nearly economically sound,
Yet, but there's been another breakthrough in hydrogen generation.

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IE320050424061423&Page=3&Title=Features+-+Health+%26+Science&Topic=166

Hmm. Well, that does make hydrogen a lot easier, doesn't it?

Well, that's cars out of the way. Still need something for power grids.

Or going back to people generating their own power; I can see that as potentially feasible under that sort of electrical system, if a bit costly. I'd rather not have a single universal 'grid' that could be knocked out through a couple of screw-ups or a planned action, if the power could be properly supplied another way.

Before any american takes this thread as an accusation or a flame think this:

by being the largest world oil consumer, and by being so dependent on it, you will also be the one's that will also be it hardest when oil prices start to increase.

Last I heard: 315USD per barril by 2015.

Yeah, last I heard, the US and Germany are working very hard to make fuel cells, these cars will be completed in as little as five years and will be mass produced in as little as 10-15 years.

Hmm. Well, that does make hydrogen a lot easier, doesn't it?

Well, that's cars out of the way. Still need something for power grids.

Or going back to people generating their own power; I can see that as potentially feasible under that sort of electrical system, if a bit costly. I'd rather not have a single universal 'grid' that could be knocked out through a couple of screw-ups or a planned action, if the power could be properly supplied another way.
Household energy self-reliance has always been an interest of mine. The most practical options for household use are solar and wind. (Sorry, no fusion/fission allowed in the basement) Wind seems to have certain technical difficulties and solar is still not quite efficient enough, particularly at higher lattitudes. Solar seems to be the better option, what with no moving parts. Homes need to be built to operate more energy efficient and solar needs to become a bit mroe efficient and less expensive. These two points are getting closer each year. Once critical mass is achieved, WATCH OUT!!

As a side note, a home that can generate it's own electricity would do very well to own an electric car... Trouble is national traffic safety requirements are very heavy. For some reason motorcycles are exempt.

Hmm. Well, that does make hydrogen a lot easier, doesn't it?

Well, that's cars out of the way. Still need something for power grids.


One problem: worldwide stocks of platinum and palladium, necessary for fuel cells, are only sufficient to build about 50 million vehicle fuel cells. Anyone want to hazard a quick guess about whether or not the world has more than 50 million cars? IMHO the fuel cell car is a pipe dream at best, and at worst a distraction from the more attainable goal of better fuel milage from all internal-combustion engines, as well as truly effective electric cars.