NationStates Jolt Archive

One (http://www.freep.com/news/locoak/hoax21e_20050421.htm)
Two (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0420.html)
Three (http://www.salon.com/news/1999/03/cov_10news.html)
Four (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050409/NEWS01/504090321/1006)

There is no doubt that rape is a horrid crime when perpetrated on either gender. The trouble is that gender feminists (Like the National Organization of Women) make the claim that NO women would lie about rape, therefore all men (In some cases those not even accused) are guilty until proven innocent.

"NOW has argued that women do not lie about rape. Catharine MacKinnon--a founding mother of the gender feminism that NOW promotes -- stated in her book, Feminism Unmodified, "The reason feminism uncovered this reality [of male oppression], its methodological secret, is that feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." If this methodology is debunked, if women are viewed as no more or less likely to lie than men, then the foundation of gender politics collapses.

...Rollins student Elizabeth Humphrey states the point simply: "Lying about that story (rape) is absolutely horrible because women are victimized every day. And if we get the reputation of lying, then people won't start to believe us if it does happen."

Instead of publicizing sexual violence against women, Nall has spotlighted the problem of false accusations against men. Her case also raises the question of whether NOW-style feminists encourage false accusations when they flatly insist that women must be believed.

NOW apparently wishes to maintain distance as well. As of Monday, searching its website for the term "Nall" returns no results. Where it comes to rest depends largely upon the honesty -- not the NOW-like silence -- with which women confront the problem of false accusations."

For those of you who are only familiar with gender feminism perpetrated by organizations like N.O.W. you should become familiar with individualist feminism, described in sites like these;

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/
http://www.ifeminist.com/
http://www.zetetics.com/indfem/

... and?

I have a friend who was accused of raping a girl in our dorm a few years ago. She later withdrew her story before any sort of charges could be filed. It's a terrible thing to lie about. But I'm not seeing what your point is.

Horrible people there, horrible people here. So?

So women aren't perfect beings. Point?

I hate to break it to the feminists, but women are not superior to men in any way. Women, like men, are prone to lie, steal, and kill.

The point? Aside from one of the conrnerstones of the largest feminist organization in the world, the National Organization of Women, being blasted by the news I suppose there is not much of one.

"NOW has argued that women do not lie about rape. Catharine MacKinnon--a founding mother of the gender feminism that NOW promotes -- stated in her book, Feminism Unmodified, "The reason feminism uncovered this reality [of male oppression], its methodological secret, is that feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." If this methodology is debunked, if women are viewed as no more or less likely to lie than men, then the foundation of gender politics collapses."


(gender politics meaning the basis of gender feminism in this quote, not gender relations in general)

I hate to break it to the feminists, but women are not superior to men in any way. Women, like men, are prone to lie, steal, and kill.

Exactly, and thus stating what B0zzy did is like saying it sometimes rains on the beach. People know it happens, but don't necessarily admit it and people who lie about sexual misconduct - male or female - should be punished as well. Real rape and molestation is a serious issue and shouldn't be demeaned by false accusations.

Huh? I still fail to see what the hell this has to do with anything. Are you claiming that most rape cases are made up?


Fuck you if you are buddy.

i'm not sure i see how an ideology based on believing the general truthfulness of womens accounts of sexual exploitation is destroyed by the reality of individual lies.

history is based on believing contemporary accounts of events in the past, it doesn't fall because some of these accounts prove unreliable.

The point? Aside from one of the conrnerstones of the largest feminist organization in the world, the National Organization of Women, being blasted by the news I suppose there is not much of one.

"NOW has argued that women do not lie about rape. Catharine MacKinnon--a founding mother of the gender feminism that NOW promotes -- stated in her book, Feminism Unmodified, "The reason feminism uncovered this reality [of male oppression], its methodological secret, is that feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." If this methodology is debunked, if women are viewed as no more or less likely to lie than men, then the foundation of gender politics collapses."


(gender politics meaning the basis of gender feminism in this quote, not gender relations in general)


what exactly is meant by "feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men" ?

I thought that feminism was built on a movement towards equality... hmmm...

Huh? I still fail to see what the hell this has to do with anything. Are you claiming that most rape cases are made up?


Fuck you if you are buddy.

I think he's just trying to say that some women (not all or most) make up claims of rape. I dont really know why he made a thread about it though. Its hardly revelatory.

Obviously, people making false rape accusations doesn't do anybody any favours, but then I would also suggest that this has absolutely sod all to do with the realities of sexual politics, the vallidity of the majority of rape accusations, the feminist movement etc...

now i didnt read ms mackinnons book and im not likely to in the future but saying "women dont lie about rape" is like the saying that children dont lie about being molested.

sure they do lie on occasion. children lie, children can be manipulated, childrent can be forced to lie. in the same way women sometimes flat out lie, sometimes they are manipulated or forced into lying (extremely rare) about rape.

i believe that the point is (and if it isnt, it should be) that when a woman says she has been raped you dont automatically assume she's lying. this is what has been done in the past.

we need to treat women with enough respect to believe them when they say they have been raped and then INVESTIGATE the situation to see if its true or not. or at least if there is enough evidence to take it to court .

the instance of false accusation of rape is very simlar to false accusation of any other crime. it happens but its not common. no one goes nutz over the false accusation of non-sexual assault and advocates that there is something terribly wrong with the system because of it.

Well, I've known more false-rape victims than actual rape victims... so, yes, women lie about rape.

Ashmoria makes a fine point, but unfortunately makes the mistake of assuming "investigation" will settle things. Well, it doesn't. Without physical evidence... you know, stained dresses, witnesses... nothing gets proved. And when you say investigation whats really occurring is the first stage of litigation. So the rape thing just hangs there forever in limbo, or it goes to court with all the happy endings and closure that come out of giving profit to lawyers.

Huh? I still fail to see what the hell this has to do with anything. Are you claiming that most rape cases are made up?


Fuck you if you are buddy.

What he is trying to show is that NOW was wrong when they said that women never lie about rape.
He never said anything about MOST cases being made up.

I have a friend who was accused of raping a girl in our dorm a few years ago. She later withdrew her story before any sort of charges could be filed. It's a terrible thing to lie about. But I'm not seeing what your point is.

His point is to show that NOW was wrong when they said women NEVER lie about rape. HOw could you not see that?

Obviously, some women do lie about rape.
They should be punished pretty severely for filing a false report, defamation of characte, and whatever else would apply in such a case.

However, I think it safe to say that the VAST majority of those who report a rape are telling the truth...

...and that probably, more people are raped than report it because they fear the social punishment or retribution that may follow making such allegations public.

I hate to break it to the feminists, but women are not superior to men in any way. Women, like men, are prone to lie, steal, and kill.

You say that like you're saying something that true feminists don't already know.

Obviously, some women do lie about rape.
They should be punished pretty severely for filing a false report, defamation of characte, and whatever else would apply in such a case.

In fact, if anyone can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have brought a false accusation, I think that jail time should be involved. Probably not on the order of that given to rapists - but close.

Those who cry wolf not only ruin the life of the person they accuse, but also make it more difficult for actual rape victims.

In fact, if anyone can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to have brought a false accusation, I think that jail time should be involved. Probably not on the order of that given to rapists - but close.

Those who cry wolf not only ruin the life of the person they accuse, but also make it more difficult for actual rape victims.

Agreed. Don't forget the stigma it also attaches to the families of the accused.

However, I think it safe to say that the VAST majority of those who report a rape are telling the truth...


Is it? But that hasn't been my experience.

The vast majority of people are quite capable of lying and the vast majority of people encounter situations in their lives where lying seems like a good idea to them.

Is it? But that hasn't been my experience.

The vast majority of people are quite capable of lying and the vast majority of people encounter situations in their lives where lying seems like a good idea to them.

Remember that anyone bringing such charges (and going through with any litigation) is going to have their entire background looked into. Any defense lawyer is going to accuse them of being a slut/liar/opportunist/you-name-it.

Not many people want their entire past dug up and attacked over something that they made up.

Is it? But that hasn't been my experience.

The vast majority of people are quite capable of lying and the vast majority of people encounter situations in their lives where lying seems like a good idea to them.
perhaps you are talking about a woman who has a sexual enocounter with a man and then later tells her friends that it was rape? (as opposed to going to the police)

perhaps you are talking about a woman who has a sexual enocounter with a man and then later tells her friends that it was rape? (as opposed to going to the police)

Either one. It's the same thing really, just a matter of degree of publicity.

I hate to break it to any anti femenists here, but femenism is about equality, not superiority, and anyone who says otherwise is either a faker or influenced by the media.

It's estimated that the vast majority of Rapes go un-reported, and while I do beleive that some Rapes are lied about, If somone has been raped then they won't neccesarily want to tell you about it. A while back I was spending some time with a guy I met recently hanging out in a park near my house, when I tried to leave he grabbed me (in the nether reigions no less) and I ended up elbowing him in the face before he let go of me and I had to run.

He was a pretty normal guy, and I get the feeling that he thought I was only messing with him when I told him to get off, but it just made me think that if that seemed like such a small thing to him, perhaps rape is a small thing for some men. perghaps it really does happen more often than we think.

Either one. It's the same thing really, just a matter of degree of publicity.
you know women who have filed a verifiably false report of rape to the police? women who have been PROVEN to be liars about this?

what exactly is meant by "feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men" ?

I thought that feminism was built on a movement towards equality... hmmm...
If feminism were about equality wouldn't it be called humanism? Equalism? Would a masculism movement be based on equality?

There are more varied views on feminist equality than the N.O.W. - though most of the media would have you believe otherwise. NOW does not speak for a substantial porportion of women. Their premises are unequal and often flawed - as my original post demonstrates.

If feminism were about equality wouldn't it be called humanism? Equalism? Would a masculism movement be based on equality?

Why do people focus so much on the name? As I have said before, I don't care if you call it higoahwiofwhoism, so long as the intent is equity.

There are more varied views on feminist equality than the N.O.W. - though most of the media would have you believe otherwise. NOW does not speak for a substantial porportion of women. Their premises are unequal and often flawed - as my original post demonstrates.

Indeed.

Exactly, and thus stating what B0zzy did is like saying it sometimes rains on the beach. People know it happens, but don't necessarily admit it and people who lie about sexual misconduct - male or female - should be punished as well. Real rape and molestation is a serious issue and shouldn't be demeaned by false accusations.
Having lived on the Oregon coast for six years, I can tell you that it rains on the beach quite alot.

Having lived on the Oregon coast for six years, I can tell you that it rains on the beach quite alot.

That's because you live in Oregon. Where I lived it hardly ever rained there and you're missing the point. It's an analogy and one I slapped together when I was tired.

And yes, real feminism is wanting mere equality, but unfortunately, the more vocal "feminists" decide that they'd rather castrate and punish men for the crimes of the past rather than trying to get along with them. I've known more of this type than any other, but that doesn't mean people aren't trying to work toward equality.

I'm also supposed to believe that the majority of women think it's just fine to lie about rape? Sure, there are a few people who get drunk, regret it in the morning, and call it rape, but assuming the majority lies is going back to the old days when no woman got raped and she got punished for a crime against her. Come on, it's nearly as bad as saying guys who were raped are lying too.

You say that like you're saying something that true feminists don't already know.
Interesante...

so...what is the difference between a Feminist and a True-Feminist. :confused:

Huh? I still fail to see what the hell this has to do with anything. Are you claiming that most rape cases are made up?


Fuck you if you are buddy.
You might want to wait for him to clarify his position before you start bristling.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

...

First let me define some terms for convenience in this discussion.

Let's call a false negative case a case where a woman was raped, but charges are not pressed or the rapist is found innocent or the woman is otherwise not believed. Let's call a false positive case a case where a woman makes an accusation of rape, but the rape didn't really happen at all (I'm not considering cases where the rape happened but the wrong suspect is accidentally named).


I'm deliberately limiting my scope to female rape victims, since it is the policies of the National Organization of Women that seem to be at issue, here.

B0zzy's point seem to be that, NOW is pushing the claim that "Women do not lie about rape" in order to eliminate false negative cases. B0zzy (and his linked sources) argue that this encourages false positive cases and is a bad policy. The statement "If this methodology is debunked, if women are viewed as no more or less likely to lie than men, then the foundation of gender politics collapses." means that the strategy of claiming that women never lie about rape fails if false positive cases are exposed for what they are. B0zzy is arguing that NOW should be forced to abandon the policy of claiming that women never lie because it unnecessarily promotes false positives. ...if I'm reading B0zzy correctly; his posts are difficult to follow....

Given that it's now 12:44 AM where I am, I'm going to stop thinking, refrain from forming my own opinion, and go to bed.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

Interesante...

so...what is the difference between a Feminist and a True-Feminist. :confused:

Most of the people that get called feminists (generally by other people more so than themselves) are, in fact, simply women who hate men.

A feminist wishes for equity of the sexes.

"NOW has argued that women do not lie about rape. Catharine MacKinnon--a founding mother of the gender feminism that NOW promotes -- stated in her book, Feminism Unmodified, "The reason feminism uncovered this reality [of male oppression], its methodological secret, is that feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." If this methodology is debunked, if women are viewed as no more or less likely to lie than men, then the foundation of gender politics collapses.

that mackinnon quote does not support the claim it is being used to support. maybe some other quote would - i haven't read the book in question. but what exactly is wrong with generally believing people to be telling the truth when they report on some thing?

if you go to to the police and report a theft, the operating assumption they will start with is not that you are lying about the whole thing. they won't immediately go about looking for possible reasons you might be after attention or looking into your past to show that you seem to enjoy having things stolen. they may do so eventually, if your story doesn't add up and the facts seem to be against you. but the first operating assumption is that the crime reported really happened.

the mackinnon quote says that if we take the same operating assumption to women's reports of sexual abuse, then we can uncover "this reality" (about male opression, according to the second author who is quoting the original). nowhere does it claim or require that all reports of rape or abuse must be truthful of necessity.

care to play again? i'd like to see a quote from NOW claiming that no woman has ever lied about rape. should be easy to find, yes?

Sexist and ignorant trolling at its best.

Feminism seeks to achieve is equality of the sexes. There have been the odd high-profile man-haters at the fore, giving the entire movement a bad name. What is most unfortunate is that the those with a very lazy concept of what feminism is, choose the man-hater as the definition for the movement. It's akin to choosing the sexual predator as the definition of Catholic clergy.

Some men are aggressive filth, who think it's their right to rape and abuse women. Some women are weak scum who rely on the Vagina Card to get away with ethically reprehensible behaviour, like lying about rape. Some women abuse men, and some men let themselves be abused because of inherent weakness masquerading as erroneous traditional beliefs about inequality of the sexes.

To say that women never lie about rape, or that all men accused of rape are guilty without trial, is sexist. D'uh.

Rape prosecution is one of the few social arenas in which women have an advantage. A jury is likely to believe a rare alegation made by a women, except in cases of celebraties

At the same time, a women will probably get away with raping a man.



Those who desire true equality are fighting an impossible battle. So long as there are two sexes one is going to have some political power over the other.

The best solution is to eleminate gender divisions completely so that male and female become meaningless terms.

Rape prosecution is one of the few social arenas in which women have an advantage. A jury is likely to believe a rare alegation made by a women, except in cases of celebraties

i don't know that i'd call having your entire sexual history put on trial when you are the victim, not the defendant, much of an advantage. also, a person is much more likely to get off after being arrested for rape than they are for any other crime, either by being acquitted or through dismissal. and of the people convicted, half of them will face less than a year in jail; with half of those facing no jail time at all. and, of course, there is the fact that rape and sexual assault are vastly under-reported, so most rapists are never even arrested, let alone convicted.

yup, that's quite the advantage.

Rape prosecution is one of the few social arenas in which women have an advantage. A jury is likely to believe a rare alegation made by a women, except in cases of celebraties

At the same time, a women will probably get away with raping a man.



Those who desire true equality are fighting an impossible battle. So long as there are two sexes one is going to have some political power over the other.

The best solution is to eleminate gender divisions completely so that male and female become meaningless terms.

Have to comment on this one.... In California (at least at the time when I left there a few years back) a woman couldn't be charged with raping a man... because the penal definition of rape included the phrase "vaginal penetration".

if you go to to the police and report a theft, the operating assumption they will start with is not that you are lying about the whole thing. they won't immediately go about looking for possible reasons you might be after attention or looking into your past to show that you seem to enjoy having things stolen. they may do so eventually, if your story doesn't add up and the facts seem to be against you. but the first operating assumption is that the crime reported really happened.
But the difference there is that in a theft investigation, there is almost certainly going to be some evidence of the theft if it happened. Rape, on the other hand, very often comes down to the word of the woman against the word of the man. In this case, then, the facts wouldn't be for against you or for you, because there wouldn't be any, so you would have to tread a lot more carefully than you would in a theft investigation.

Have to comment on this one.... In California (at least at the time when I left there a few years back) a woman couldn't be charged with raping a man... because the penal definition of rape included the phrase "vaginal penetration"
Well, in theory I suppose the woman could tie the man down and get him aroused involuntarily, then mount him. Or does the vaginal penetration have to be of the victim? It's moot anyway, because since when have men ever refused sex?

So hang on, in California is it also legally not rape if a man rapes another man? After all, there's no vaginal penetration.

Have to comment on this one.... In California (at least at the time when I left there a few years back) a woman couldn't be charged with raping a man... because the penal definition of rape included the phrase "vaginal penetration".

well theres a law that certainly needed changing. you know (of course) that MEN wrote that law, not women. men who were in deep denial over the notion that men COULD be raped. deep denial over the realities of rape that even for a women might not include "vaginal penetration"

But the difference there is that in a theft investigation, there is almost certainly going to be some evidence of the theft if it happened. Rape, on the other hand, very often comes down to the word of the woman against the word of the man. In this case, then, the facts wouldn't be for against you or for you, because there wouldn't be any, so you would have to tread a lot more carefully than you would in a theft investigation.
most cases of rape have lots of evidence. rape tends to be a violent crime. cuts, bruises, tears etc in addition to semen (although many rapes dont include ejaculation)

those that dont have those elements either because she reports it too long after the incident or because it was more coercive than violent (a gun to the head promotes cooperation ) are extremely hard to prosecute.

now im not talking about those situations where one might have an honest disagreement of whether or not the act in question was rape. for example, you and i might have a disagreement over whether the kobe bryant thing was rape, but no one is doubting that it happened. thats a thorny question of law that the country is still working out.
Well, in theory I suppose the woman could tie the man down and get him aroused involuntarily, then mount him. Or does the vaginal penetration have to be of the victim? It's moot anyway, because since when have men ever refused sex?

So hang on, in California is it also legally not rape if a man rapes another man? After all, there's no vaginal penetration.
a woman can use an impliment to rape a man eh?

most cases of rape have lots of evidence. rape tends to be a violent crime. cuts, bruises, tears etc in addition to semen (although many rapes dont include ejaculation).
But bruises could come from anything, and semen would be present whether the woman was raped of just had sex. More often than not, whether or not it was rape ultimately comes down to her word against his.

now im not talking about those situations where one might have an honest disagreement of whether or not the act in question was rape.
Whether or not the disagreement was "honest" is irrelevent - presumably most of the time either the man or the woman is lying about whether or not it was rape - the case still comes down to character.

a woman can use an impliment to rape a man eh?
Only if the man has a vagina, it seems. :rolleyes:

But bruises could come from anything, and semen would be present whether the woman was raped of just had sex. More often than not, whether or not it was rape ultimately comes down to her word against his.


Whether or not the disagreement was "honest" is irrelevent - presumably most of the time either the man or the woman is lying about whether or not it was rape - the case still comes down to character.


how can being honest not be relevant to this discussion? look at the thread title "who says women never lie about rape?"

its not about honest disagreements on whether or not something was rape, its about whether or not women make things up and report them to police or tell them to their friends.

both people can be being honest. if she honestly believes she was violated, she is not making a false accustion of rape. if he honestly believes that it was consentual, he is not making a false denial of rape. that is what the courts are for, to sort out just when its rape and when its not. in those circumstances where there is no other evidence but his against hers, its rare for a prosecutor to take the case and very rare to end in a conviction.

that mackinnon quote does not support the claim it is being used to support. maybe some other quote would - i haven't read the book in question. but what exactly is wrong with generally believing people to be telling the truth when they report on some thing?


There are many things wrong with it, not the least of which is the presumption of innocence. In this quote she is specific in her terms;

"The reason feminism uncovered this reality [of male oppression], its methodological secret, is that feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men."
This sentence makes several claims;
the reality is that there is male oppression.
male oppression has methodological secrets.
Male methodological oppression is uncovered by believing women's (not men's) accounts of sexual use (undefined generality) and abuse by men (not women). - which means presumed guilt, not innocence.

It does not say "in the taking serious of any report of sexual use and abuse by men" it says 'believing'; acceptance without evidence, proof or scrutiny. It also qualifies it then by saying that male oppression is "uncovered" by believing these reports, therefore if the reports prove to be unbelievable that would negate her claim of male oppression.

Any report of a crime or persecution of a crime in the US is based not on proving that a crime was committed, but that the person accused is guilty of it, not the accused proving they are innocent of it. It is a very important and sacred difference.

just by repeating that same quote over and over again doesn't really lend any weight to your argument. Whoever wrote that book clearly had some issues, and I don't think that anyone here is suggesting that women never make false rape accusations.

The fact remains that, being as how most rape cases boil down to a "your word against mine" scenario, it is actually reaaly difficult to get a rape conviction- only 5.6% of reported rapes get a conviction. It's hardly like all these militant feminists are going around insisting they have been violated in a bid to imprison the entire male population on false rape charges.

you know women who have filed a verifiably false report of rape to the police? women who have been PROVEN to be liars about this?

I like the look of shock I imagine on your face as you type that - I believe you imagine that to be so impossible or rare as to be neglible.

But, no, I don't happen to be a lawyer or detective collecting evidence for proof.

In fact that was nearly my point. There is no proof. How do you prove a rape if all the physical evidence has healed or been... cleaned away? Trial? Oh yeah, because if 12 average americans believe something, it must be true. Ad populous anyone? Or a judge. Appeal to authority? I don't see these as being 'proofs' anymore than it was 'proven' that OJ was not guilty. We ALL KNOW he was guilty. Apparently the justice system is not perfect, neither am I, and neither are women who would do that sort of thing. Hell, neither are women who wouldn't. No one is, that's my point - maybe if all women were perfect, you'd have a right to be shocked as certainly none of them would do imperfect things like that.

Wow, I ramble. Stopping now. :)

I like the look of shock I imagine on your face as you type that - I believe you imagine that to be so impossible or rare as to be neglible.

But, no, I don't happen to be a lawyer or detective collecting evidence for proof.

In fact that was nearly my point. There is no proof. How do you prove a rape if all the physical evidence has healed or been... cleaned away? Trial? Oh yeah, because if 12 average americans believe something, it must be true. Ad populous anyone? Or a judge. Appeal to authority? I don't see these as being 'proofs' anymore than it was 'proven' that OJ was not guilty. We ALL KNOW he was guilty. Apparently the justice system is not perfect, neither am I, and neither are women who would do that sort of thing. Hell, neither are women who wouldn't. No one is, that's my point - maybe if all women were perfect, you'd have a right to be shocked as certainly none of them would do imperfect things like that.

Wow, I ramble. Stopping now. :)
no, i just doubted that you knew a woman stupid enough to take a false accusation of rape to the police.

i dont like admitting it with bozzy around but doesnt everyone know at least one woman who makes claims of rape that are just .... well... not believable? things she only tells her friends and never takes to the police? stories about men who probably dont exist or men she has had a very bitter break up with?sad, pathetic psycholiar women who get off on sordid tales or on ruining a man's reputation?

these women exist and they are the ones who set back women's rights. they arent feminists; they are pshycholairs and drama queens. feminists who have trained themselves to believe women can be tricked by these lies into supporting a bitch with an axe to grind.

so now who has been caught rambling?

well theres a law that certainly needed changing. you know (of course) that MEN wrote that law, not women. men who were in deep denial over the notion that men COULD be raped. deep denial over the realities of rape that even for a women might not include "vaginal penetration"

In GA, the law used to specifically stipulate forced insertion of the penis into the vagina. Basically what this meant was that a man could never charge someone with rape and no one could charge anyone who used implements rather than a penis.

Lots of petitioning later, we ended up finally getting the law changed - right about the time they got rid of the sodomy laws as well.

no, i just doubted that you knew a woman stupid enough to take a false accusation of rape to the police.

i dont like admitting it with bozzy around but doesnt everyone know at least one woman who makes claims of rape that are just .... well... not believable? things she only tells her friends and never takes to the police? stories about men who probably dont exist or men she has had a very bitter break up with?sad, pathetic psycholiar women who get off on sordid tales or on ruining a man's reputation?

these women exist and they are the ones who set back women's rights. they arent feminists; they are pshycholairs and drama queens. feminists who have trained themselves to believe women can be tricked by these lies into supporting a bitch with an axe to grind.

so now who has been caught rambling?

Well, I don't know if they actually reported it themselves or went to someone who did. Anyway... I completely agree with your rambling.

Women do lie about rape and I'm not saying that because I'm a sexist pig... though surely I am... but because it pisses me off since I do also know actual rape victims whose plight is just made worse by that sort of activity. But really, none of this is new, not like modern feminism is new anyway. Just... some people. Blah.

i dont like admitting it with bozzy around but doesnt everyone know at least one woman who makes claims of rape that are just .... well... not believable? things she only tells her friends and never takes to the police? stories about men who probably dont exist or men she has had a very bitter break up with?sad, pathetic psycholiar women who get off on sordid tales or on ruining a man's reputation?

Honestly? I have never known a woman who made private claims of rape that weren't believable. Then again, that might be because I would never spend time with someone I thought would do so.

these women exist and they are the ones who set back women's rights. they arent feminists; they are pshycholairs and drama queens. feminists who have trained themselves to believe women can be tricked by these lies into supporting a bitch with an axe to grind.

Yar.

women = humans

And humans lie, everyone knows that. I mean, you have people faking accidents to get the money from their insurance. Other people make false banknotes, etc etc etc. So this isn't really new, such cases exist. Also, if you really want to destroy someone what's better than claiming he raped you?

Heck, it even worked in "American Beauty" when Kevin Spacey's character blackmailed his boss with something similar.

It's not new.

While is is true that some women lie about rape, I do not believe it is the majority. I also believe that every woman has the right to say No, and the right to say Stop.

what exactly is meant by "feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men" ?

I thought that feminism was built on a movement towards equality... hmmm...
It is, B0zzy is an idiot/paranoid conspiracy theorist.

i dont like admitting it with bozzy around but doesnt everyone know at least one woman who makes claims of rape that are just .... well... not believable? things she only tells her friends and never takes to the police? stories about men who probably dont exist or men she has had a very bitter break up with?sad, pathetic psycholiar women who get off on sordid tales or on ruining a man's reputation?
I don't know any such women.

I've been sexually assaulted, not raped, forced with other things... I'd said no, he proceeded, I said stop, he proceeded. I had to kick the bastard.

And also, only one of my friends knows, and he doesn't really know much about it, or else this guy would probably have been in the hospital or dead.

I don't know any such women.

I've been sexually assaulted, not raped, forced with other things... I'd said no, he proceeded, I said stop, he proceeded. I had to kick the bastard.

I hope you kicked him very hard, and in a very sensitive area.

I hope you kicked him very hard, and in a very sensitive area.
I wish I had.

I wish I had.

Eh, well, it's the thought that counts :D.

On the other hand, I'm thinking of a certain thread starter who deserves just that!

I don't know any such women.

I've been sexually assaulted, not raped, forced with other things... I'd said no, he proceeded, I said stop, he proceeded. I had to kick the bastard.

i guess i know a different class of women than you do. the point is that one women making a false claim does not mean that YOU are making a false claim. false claims exist, thats why we have the courts and not just a firing squad.

how can being honest not be relevant to this discussion? look at the thread title "who says women never lie about rape?"

its not about honest disagreements on whether or not something was rape, its about whether or not women make things up and report them to police or tell them to their friends.
You said something along the lines of "I'm not talking about honest disagreements", and I was simply saying that I wasn't either - I was talking about when one party is lying, which I think is probably the case (one way or another) in most rape trials.

I don't see what you mean by "disagreements about whether or not women make things up". I thought we were talking about disagreements within the courtroom, or in the police interview room, not disagreements on messageboards and over dinner.

You said something along the lines of "I'm not talking about honest disagreements", and I was simply saying that I wasn't either - I was talking about when one party is lying, which I think is probably the case (one way or another) in most rape trials.

I don't see what you mean by "disagreements about whether or not women make things up". I thought we were talking about disagreements within the courtroom, or in the police interview room, not disagreements on messageboards and over dinner.
you mean you think that most court cases involving rape have the claimed victim perjuring herself?

im sorry to have misunderstood you. it never occurred to me that anyone would think that most rape victims lie in court.

You said something along the lines of "I'm not talking about honest disagreements", and I was simply saying that I wasn't either - I was talking about when one party is lying, which I think is probably the case (one way or another) in most rape trials.

I don't see what you mean by "disagreements about whether or not women make things up". I thought we were talking about disagreements within the courtroom, or in the police interview room, not disagreements on messageboards and over dinner.
It's also possible that neither party is lying, one woudl be wrong... for instance often it happens that the mind plays tricks... I dunno, I heard about this one case where this woman was convinced that this guy raped her even though DNA exhonerated him, it was something to do with her imposing his face onto the face of her attacker. She wasn't lying, she was wrong.

Remember that anyone bringing such charges (and going through with any litigation) is going to have their entire background looked into. Any defense lawyer is going to accuse them of being a slut/liar/opportunist/you-name-it.

Not many people want their entire past dug up and attacked over something that they made up.

Not really, rape shield laws. There are exceptions though.

I think Rape shield laws are a good thing in claims where supposidly the guy grabbed the girl off the street ripped off her clothes and raped her.

I think rape shield laws are bad in a he said/she said type of rape case. As in she claims she said no but he claims she consented. All date rapes where date rape drugs or violence isnt present ect.

There are many things wrong with it, not the least of which is the presumption of innocence. In this quote she is specific in her terms;

"The reason feminism uncovered this reality [of male oppression], its methodological secret, is that feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men."
This sentence makes several claims;
the reality is that there is male oppression.
male oppression has methodological secrets.
Male methodological oppression is uncovered by believing women's (not men's) accounts of sexual use (undefined generality) and abuse by men (not women). - which means presumed guilt, not innocence.

i read the 'methodological secret' as being connected to feminism, not to male opression. there is only one method mentioned in the sentence, and it uncovers male opression.

and believing some one does not mean you presume the guilt of any particular individual. it means that you presume the victim to be telling the truth - that they were in fact raped or sexually assaulted.

the point is that women are typically required to jump through all sorts of bullshit in order to get anywhere with rape charges. beyond the complete and utter invasion of her sexual history that she will have to face from the police, the doctors, and in a trial, there are also the dismissive concepts of "she was asking for it" and "no means yes" that tend to make men not take rape and sexual assault claims as seriously as they do for other kinds of crimes. hell, we are still under variations the old standard that if the woman doesn't resist enough she must really have wanted it. you know, like how if you don't try to fight off a robber, you must really have wanted to give him that stuff he took. and so society tends to dismiss most claims of rape, without real grounds for doing so. but if you take rape claims seriously - unless there are real reasons for dismissing them - then we can see "this reality".

the quote in question seems entirely reasonable and understandable to me.

The majority of women DO NOT report being raped if they were raped. The majority of women DO NOT report being assaulted, if they were assaulted. Because of men like Bozzy.

The majority of women DO NOT report being raped if they were raped. The majority of women DO NOT report being assaulted, if they were assaulted. Because of men like Bozzy.
Yup, insisting on things like evidence and proof are so opressive. It is almost as bad as making up statistics to proove an invalid point just to flame somebody. :headbang:

Rape is an absolutely horrendous crime that should be punished severely.
Falsely accusing someone of rape is nearly as bad in my opinion.

i dont like admitting it with bozzy around...

And why would you have trouble with the truth under any circumstance? What makes a factual admission any different in my (virtual) presence?

And why would you have trouble with the truth under any circumstance? What makes a factual admission any different in my (virtual) presence?
Would you like to admit you had been anally raped by another man in the (virtual) presence of someone who started a thread saying "men lie about being raped" without them stating that this was in fact a minority?

Yup, insisting on things like evidence and proof are so opressive. It is almost as bad as making up statistics to proove an invalid point just to flame somebody. :headbang:

There are plenty of men who have been convicted of rape using DNA evidence who to this day proclaim their innocence.

I've personally seen women who were severely beaten by their husbands - complete with permanent physical wounds - and their husband denied attacking them. Even with multiple witnesses, the man still denied any wrongdoing - they never, ever admit it.

Are you saying that all of those men convicted by DNA and by multiple witness testimony are the victims of a conspiracy by the woman?

I've heard this same line from men who claim they never stalked their ex.

I remember one night guarding my house, where my wife and I were sheltering a woman.

Her ex showed up, and said, "even if you call the cops, I'll deny it, and you won't have any evidence."

I said, "I have a No Trespass warrant filed on you with the court. Virginia law entitles me to shoot you on sight if you're on my property or the curtilage thereof. I see you're standing on my property, and I would have you know that what I'm holding in my hand is a pistol. You have 10 seconds to start running - after that, I'll kill you."

Works for me. The DA has verified that I have this right - if I have a protective order and/or a No Trespass warrant, and he's on my property, problem solved without going to court.

One of the ex husbands has written me a letter, complaining that I'm working outside the system, and that he has the right to harass his ex. I no longer need play by the old rules - I don't need evidence anymore. The evidence of stalking in the future will be his dead body in my yard.

Yup, insisting on things like evidence and proof are so opressive. It is almost as bad as making up statistics to proove an invalid point just to flame somebody. :headbang:
Asshole, a good friend of mine was sexually assualted while I was in the next room, I didn't hear a thing, and there was no evidence at all.

(It was by her cousin, by the way, so don't even bother with that consent crap)

Not really, rape shield laws.Rape shield laws do not apply to my spanish teacher.

...
(It was by her cousin, by the way, so don't even bother with that consent crap)What consent crap?

What consent crap?
The man said she gave consent, she says she didn't.

Yup, insisting on things like evidence and proof are so opressive. It is almost as bad as making up statistics to proove an invalid point just to flame somebody. :headbang:

Almost as accusing someone of flaming when they merely point out you are wrong.

Or almost as bad as ignoring facts well documented by the FBI and the National US Dept. of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics.

Here is just one study from the BJS (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rsarp00.pdf) showing that only 36% of rapes, 34% of attempted rapes, and 26% of sexual assaults were reported to police between 1992 and 2000.

Just to be clear, that means 64% of rapes are not reported.

66% of attempted rapes are not reported.

74% of sexual assaults are not reported.

(These numbers are consistent with scores of studies. Don't bother arguing against them.)

Moreover, I notice you provided little or no evidence to support your thesis. You linked to 4 articles - related to 2 -- count 'em 2 allegedly false rape reports.

Between 1996 and 2002, there were approximately 300,000 rapes and sexual assaults. (Under the DOJ's strict definitions of these crimes.) See here (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/cvus/number_of_incidents745.htm).

Of your 2 alleged false reports, 1 was investigated and -- according to your own source -- investigators say the alleged victim admitted she lied. We don't actually know if that is true. It appears that she may be, but has not yet been, charged with making a false report.

The second -- which is the focus of 2 of your links -- is Ms. Nall. She has been charged with making a false report. She maintains the claim that she was assaulted. She is entitled to the presumption of innocence, right?

Just as we do -- and should -- assume that an alleged rapist is innocent until proven the guilty, the same should apply to these women.

Regardless, 2 alleged cases of false reports hardly make for an epidemic of false rape allegations -- particularly when there are about 300,000 rapes per year.

I'm gathering links, but the best estimates are that "unfounded" (i.e., lack of evidence to support, which is not necessarily the same as false) or false rape allegations are 4% - 6% of all rape reports. Your own source says (inaccurately) 9%.

Most studies and experts that separate "unfounded" allegations from false allegations believe that about 2% to 4% of all rape reports are false. This is about the same as the false reporting rate for other crimes. (Some crimes are higher, some lower.)

That bears repeating:

The best estimates are that 2% to 4% of all rape reports are false.

That is about the same as the false reporting rate for other crimes.

Note: That not all reported rapes result in any signficant official action. Not all reported rapes result in an arrest. Not all arrests for rape result in a prosecution. Not all prosecutions for rape result in a conviction. As false reports are least likely to have supporting evidence, they are least likely to result in arrests, prosecutions, or convictions.

Hyperbole about false rape reports has a long and ugly history.

Misogynists love to perpetuate myths about the significance of false reporting of rape.

... Don't bother arguing ...you should not say that...

because I cant resist that kind of invitation.

you should not say that...

because I cant resist that kind of invitation.

or Sambuca ;)


Rape is despicable and lying about it is too. It causes problems for those who are telling the truth. Classic Boy who cried wolf scenario. I cant imagine the horror of being raped anymore than I can the horror of being incarcerated the rest of my life for something I didnt do. sigh...

or Sambuca ;) ...
:D cheers

One (http://www.freep.com/news/locoak/hoax21e_20050421.htm)
Two (http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2005/0420.html)
Three (http://www.salon.com/news/1999/03/cov_10news.html)
Four (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050409/NEWS01/504090321/1006)

There is no doubt that rape is a horrid crime when perpetrated on either gender. The trouble is that gender feminists (Like the National Organization of Women) make the claim that NO women would lie about rape, therefore all men (In some cases those not even accused) are guilty until proven innocent.

"NOW has argued that women do not lie about rape. Catharine MacKinnon--a founding mother of the gender feminism that NOW promotes -- stated in her book, Feminism Unmodified, "The reason feminism uncovered this reality [of male oppression], its methodological secret, is that feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men." If this methodology is debunked, if women are viewed as no more or less likely to lie than men, then the foundation of gender politics collapses.

...Rollins student Elizabeth Humphrey states the point simply: "Lying about that story (rape) is absolutely horrible because women are victimized every day. And if we get the reputation of lying, then people won't start to believe us if it does happen."

Instead of publicizing sexual violence against women, Nall has spotlighted the problem of false accusations against men. Her case also raises the question of whether NOW-style feminists encourage false accusations when they flatly insist that women must be believed.

NOW apparently wishes to maintain distance as well. As of Monday, searching its website for the term "Nall" returns no results. Where it comes to rest depends largely upon the honesty -- not the NOW-like silence -- with which women confront the problem of false accusations."

For those of you who are only familiar with gender feminism perpetrated by organizations like N.O.W. you should become familiar with individualist feminism, described in sites like these;

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/
http://www.ifeminist.com/
http://www.zetetics.com/indfem/

Ridiculous -- from start to finish.

Your post is a bit confused -- as you cut and pasted different bits together -- so let's clarify your "point":

1. Feminists like NOW say women never lie about rape. (False)

2. Feminists like NOW say "all men ... are guilty until proven innocent." (False)

3. The evidence for this is that Catharine MacKinnon allegedly stated in her book, Feminism Unmodified: "'The reason feminism uncovered this reality [of male oppression], its methodological secret, is that feminism is built on believing women's accounts of sexual use and abuse by men.'" (We'll come back.)

4. If it is proven that "women are ... no more or less likely to lie than men, then the foundation of gender politics collapses." (False)

5. In other words, if it can be shown that some women have lied about rape then feminism is wrong. (False)

6. Lying about rape is wrong. (True. Duh)

7. There is a significant "problem of false [rape] accusations against men." (False/Misleading)

8. ifeminists are the true path! (False)


Now let's take this silliness apart:

1. Nope. NOW has never maintained that women never lie about rape. NOW and other feminist organizations have been outspoken about the problem of rape. Until the late 70s it was a largely silent issue. The dimensions of the problem in this country was greatly underestimated. The general rule was that women were not believed when they alleged they were raped. In fact, as a matter of statutory law, independent corroboration -- sometimes another witness -- was required for a rape conviction. No such requirement existed for other crimes, including attempted murder.

The statutory presumption (and the societal attitude) was that women generally lied about being raped. NOW and other organizations fought for recognition that women generally do not lie about rape. Not that women never lie. But that, as a general rule, they don't make it up. This is supported by common sense, many studies, and FBI statistics.

2. Silly. Simply not true. Even if you could find the odd feminist or two that has ever seriously put forth such a theory, it is certainly an isolated viewpoint and not that of NOW.

3. MacKinnon's Feminism Unmodified is a collection of lectures she gave in the 1980s. We have this third-hand at best. We have no context. We don't even have an undoctored quote. Nonetheless, the sentence -- as stated -- does not support your theory.

The quote merely says that feminism started from the premise that women are human beings. That millions of them haven't all simply made up stories of rape and abuse. That women can generally be believed when they report a crime. Just as most victims are generally believed. From this premise -- this methodology of chronicling women's accounts of rape and abuse and taking them seriously -- feminists in the 1960s , 70s, and 80s exposed ways that women were being oppressed.

In other words, feminists were able to uncover and bring new and justified attention to the undeniably real problems of rape and domestic violence because -- unlike most of those who had been in power (male legislators, prosecutors, etc) -- they were willing to believe rather than simply dismiss women.

5. Obviously absurd. As feminism is not based on the concept that women never lie or that women are less likely to lie than men, proving that women sometimes lie has no impact. It is simply a truth.

But women don't lie more than men either. That you feel the need to try to prove women sometimes lie shows that feminists were correct in shifting the paradigm. Thanks.

7. About 2% - 4% of rape reports are false. That is about the same rate of false reports for other crimes. It is hardly an epidemic.

8. I'd be glad to expose some of the silliness and dangers of "ifeminism" in another thread. For now, I think these excerpts about rape from the ifeminist.com FAQ speaks for itself:

That said, ifeminists repudiate the use of force by people of either gender to coerce sexual acts by people of either gender. Abhorrent as it is, however, it has become evident that the solution to such problems is not more government intervention.

And this about domestic violence:

Violence, except as used in a defensive capacity, is abhorrent, especially within the bounds of family or other intimate relationships. Ifeminists oppose the use of non-defensive violence by any person regardless of gender. We recognize that the conventional wisdom- that men are the perpetrators while women are the victims- is based on politics rather than on fact. Because governments are controlled by power-seeking special interest groups and because they impose blanket solutions on very diverse individualized problems lumped into a single category, ifeminism recognizes that governments offer little in the way of solutions to domestic violence.

BTW, I am a man and I have been a member of NOW for decades. (*Shock! How can that be?*)

Well, I've known more false-rape victims than actual rape victims... so, yes, women lie about rape.

Ashmoria makes a fine point, but unfortunately makes the mistake of assuming "investigation" will settle things. Well, it doesn't. Without physical evidence... you know, stained dresses, witnesses... nothing gets proved. And when you say investigation whats really occurring is the first stage of litigation. So the rape thing just hangs there forever in limbo, or it goes to court with all the happy endings and closure that come out of giving profit to lawyers. :confused:
You must travel in some really weird circles.
I know a lot of rape and sexual abuse victims, and no one who falsely accused someone.

:confused:
You must travel in some really weird circles.
I know a lot of rape and sexual abuse victims, and no one who falsely accused someone.

Yeah, I travel in this weird circle called real life.

Yeah, I travel in this weird circle called real life.

It must be untrue, an extremely unlikely anomaly, Bizzaro World, or the magical land of misogyny.

It must be untrue, an extremely unlikely anomaly, Bizzaro World, or the magical land of misogyny.

It surely must, if we accept your statistics as being accurate and complete depictions of reality.

Or maybe it's not as unlikely as you or statistics would suggest.

I am not going to go into the raping part, but woman, by human nature will lie, and there is nothing that we can do about it. Will everone thinks that woman are always right goes back to when woman were like servants to men. If the women lied, she died. Everyone today thinks that the woman is always right because back in the day, a long, long, long time ago, woman would ALWAYS tell the truth. Today we think that woman are always telling the truth, but in some cases, they can be as big as liers as men can be.

It surely must, if we accept your statistics as being accurate and complete depictions of reality.

Or maybe it's not as unlikely as you or statistics would suggest.

Or your mere assertion of anecdotal evidence could be false or misleading.

Of course, you said here (http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=8741556&postcount=46) that the police, prosecutors, juries, and judges were all consistently wrong about this too. (And you showed a shocking lack of knowledge about the average rape trial.) You've at least implied that some of these "false accusations" of which you claim personal knowledge involve someone actually convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'll take my own experiences, expert studies, and the FBI, thank you.

EDIT: I wish to be clear that I am not saying you are lying or being deceptive. But your account could be false for numerous reasons -- such as you may incorrectly think a rape accusation was untrue when the rape actually occured. Similarly, your account could be deceptive because you may, for whatever reason, know of an unusually high number of false reports relative to real rapes. False reports do happen. They are just relatively rare.

Sorry, Santa B, you live in bizarro world. Cat's statistics (ie the FBI's) are the ones that bear out the real world experience of myself as well as others. Roughly one in three women and one in five men will be sexually assualted in their lifetime.
Thank you Cat and Legs, for being there for the real victims.

nikki


look i am not takin any sides cause my friends mom was accused of rape but the person lied but you kno it rarely happens but it does and i am sayin most woman dont falsly accuse someone of rape

nikki


look i am not takin any sides cause my friends mom was accused of rape but the person lied but you kno it rarely happens but it does and i am sayin most woman dont falsly accuse someone of rape
Your friends mother was accused of rape? By who?

:confused:
I know a lot of rape and sexual abuse victims, and no one who falsely accused someone.
but...

how would you know?

lets say you know 10 alleged rape victims, how would you know that none of them lied?

because they were not formally acused of lying?...because they were not charged?

charging and prosecuting these false-victims would be very difficult...unless you got them on tape or something...

but...

how would you know?

lets say you know 10 alleged rape victims, how would you know that none of them lied?

because they were not formally acused of lying?...because they were not charged?

charging and prosecuting these false-victims would be very difficult...unless you got them on tape or something...

If there is an absence of evidence, why assume they are lying?

In many cases, it is bloody obvious a rape victim is not lying. There is physical evidence.

Also, rapists cannot be convicted unless they plead guilty or their guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It is not unheard of for an innocent to plead guilty or be convicted, but it is quite rare. A conviction or guilty plea combined with the victim's word ought to be convincing proof the victim is telling the truth.

Proving many types of crimes is difficult. Does that mean they are ubiquitous but we "don't know" about them, because we cannot prove them beyond a reasonable doubt?

The sophistry in defense of the premise that women routinely lie about rape is disturbing. (This is not aimed at you, but in general.)

but...

how would you know?

lets say you know 10 alleged rape victims, how would you know that none of them lied?

because they were not formally acused of lying?...because they were not charged?

charging and prosecuting these false-victims would be very difficult...unless you got them on tape or something...

At least two who I'm 100% positive weren't lying, since I was there.
I was refering to the person who said he knew more people who had falsely accused people than those who had actually been raped. I would assume he could say that because these people confessed to falsely accussing someone. I have never met anyone who admitted to falsely accussing someone.
Since I was in a sexual abuse PTSD group, I think I can be fairly safe in assuming the women there weren't lying. I've met plenty of other women who I deemed believable, though I suppose it's remotely possible someone may have been lying.

I guess it does depend on the circles you travel in...
I know two actual rape victims, my wife and my wife's best friend.
I know 7 women who levied false sexual abuse accusations.
All 7 later recanted their stories, including one that was videotapped during the "rape", which left no doubt that the accusation was false.

Or your mere assertion of anecdotal evidence could be false or misleading.

True. And, people reporting rapes could be false or misleading too.

Just because something is a minority statistic when examined by a national agency does not mean it's equally likely (or unlikely) at every location, in every 'circle' as you say.

Of course, you said here that the police, prosecutors, juries, and judges were all consistently wrong about this too. (And you showed a shocking lack of knowledge about the average rape trial.) You've at least implied that some of these "false accusations" of which you claim personal knowledge involve someone actually convicted beyond a reasonable doubt.

I said essentially that the legal system is not my basis for judging 'proofs' of whether something is true or not. Is it yours? Do you think OJ Simpson is not guilty? Do you need a trial before you can judge whether a crime has happened? I hope you don't.

I'm not sure what's "shocking" about my lack of knowledge of the 'average' rape trial, since I've already said I'm not a lawyer, judge or cop. Nor am I speaking in terms of all that shit. I know that's your angle, but it's not mine. What does a trial do when there is no concrete evidence? Or when the crime is long past, as so many rapes are reported belatedly? Well, trials get 'processed.' There's an outcome, always, even if there's no actual conclusion for the people involved. The lawyers force people to take opposite sides and then, like mini-politicians on the campaign trail, try to persuade some average citizens that THEIR side is right. Yes, there's evidence, yes, there are good judges and good laws, but that can't get me past my cynical knowledge of human nature. (Whew. Endrant.)

Nor have I said anything about anyone 'convicted beyond a reasonable doubt,' maybe you'll see why, I don't have as much faith in the US justice system. Frankly, I wasn't talking "reported rapes" as in necessarily reported to the FBI or police officials so much as, well, "rapes."

Bitchkitten: I don't appreciate being portrayed by implication as "not on the side of the victims." Nothing could be farther from the truth. I wholeheartedly despise rape and rapists, and I hate to think how many people are wasting time pursuing non-rapists about non-rapes there are. I don't suggest you're pro-rape just for not agreeing with my points or thinking I'm a liar, so kindly don't suggest differently of me.

It is sad to see so many women who file false reports and accusations. Their selfish actions cast doubt on those who are telling the truth about their attacks. Rape is not something that should be lied about nor should the claim be used for retaliation for some perceived slight. That just makes it harder on those of us who have been raped in the past. It is not something you just get over. It becomes a part of who you are and something you have to live with. Shame on those who falsely accuse others of rape. :mad:

I was refering to the person who said he knew more people who had falsely accused people than those who had actually been raped. I would assume he could say that because these people confessed to falsely accussing someone.

No... I can say that for the exact same reason a juror will convict a man of rape, or not. I made up my own mind based on what I've been presented with.

If I needed these people to confess to having falsely accusing someone before I could say they falsely accused someone, I might very well be waiting a long time for a liar to tell the truth now, wouldn't I?

Since I was in a sexual abuse PTSD group, I think I can be fairly safe in assuming the women there weren't lying.

Yeah, same as you'd expect from the emergency room. That's rather different from daily life. If you surround yourself with rape victims, of COURSE you will know more legitimate rape victims than false ones. I don't, and for whatever reasons my life has lead me to encounter more of the latter than the former. That's just how it's worked, OK? I didn't ask for it, nor am I lying.

I've found that my "real life" associations also bear this out. Perhaps there are certain things people might feel more comfortable telling a woman or another rape victim than they would someone else. At one time I thought I was one of a small minority. I was shocked to find it's barely a minority at all.
I didn't accuse you of lying. I inferred that you were either ignorant or ran with a very strange circle.
I'm still assumming one of those are true.

Sorry if this offends anyone, but I have trouble distinguishing between Feminism and Sexism. They're too similar shades to my eyes.

Yeah, same as you'd expect from the emergency room. That's rather different from daily life. If you surround yourself with rape victims, of COURSE you will know more legitimate rape victims than false ones. I don't, and for whatever reasons my life has lead me to encounter more of the latter than the former. That's just how it's worked, OK? I didn't ask for it, nor am I lying.

Well, in my 'every day' life (no involvement with Rape Crisis or the like) I have known approximately 10 people (men and women) who have been either raped or sexually abused. Of that number, two (that I know of for certain) reported what happened to the police, or to someone in an authority position. Neither case resulted in a prosecution. Both people lost all faith in any ideal of justice for what they had been through. Both had attempted suicide on several occasions. Both were accused of lying, of consenting, of being a slut basically. I have *no* doubts *at all* about the truthfullness of any of them.

Now, I don't have the exact figures to hand, but using my numbers on an 'ad hoc' basis, 80% of those who have been sexually abused or raped did not report the crime. Unless you are a survivor, you cannot imagine what this does to them, what it has done to their lives as a whole. Therapy helps, but it is a hard road to travel, as things get *much* worse (by which I mean regular, sometimes physical flashbacks, the memory almost constantly in the forefront of their mind) before they get any better.

Now, no-one is saying that women are 'perfect', that there aren't those of our gender who will lie and cheat for whatever reason. Only a few years ago in the UK, a teenage girl was jailed for rape (the judge and the jury deemed that her involved in the gang rape of a girl was such that she could be prosecuted for rape). As a whole, the human race can be down right nasty. We don't have to look far for proof of that. But when someone reports a rape or a sexual assault to the police, they *have* to assume that the person is telling the truth. The process is difficult enough with accusations of lying at the start. If they are 'lucky' enough to be able to get to trial, there will be plenty of them then.

Blessings
Cyber

Its true women do lie about being raped. But men also lie about raping women. However there the vast majority of women don't lie about something that serious. Two years ago 2 of my friends were drugged raped and about 30 years ago some guy tried to attack my mother. So I will always tend to believe women who say they have been raped.