NationStates Jolt Archive

For the edification of those on NS, who look to the US as a great and evil power I am posting two national anthems: those of the US and France – I resisted the temptation of posting Germany’s.

Now at every six nations match – an international rugby tournament in which the French are involved – if the French are playing, they insist upon singing la Marseilles, the lyrics are thus:


Allons enfants de la patrie,
Le jour de gloire est arriv
Contre nous de la tyrannie
L'tendard sanglant est lev
Entendez vous dans les campagnes,
Mugir ces froces soldats?
Ils viennent jusque dans nos bras
Egorger nos fils, nos compagnes!


Refrain

Aux armes, citoyens!
Formez vos bataillons!
Marchons! Marchons!
Qu'un sang impur
Abreuve nos sillons!



Now, as you can plainly see, that makes the US national anthem look quite timid in comparison:

Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?


My question is, if the Europeans are such peaceable and more enlightened people, how comes they still allow their sports teams to bellow this kind of crap out when they show up around the world? Americans wouldn’t do that.

So shouldn't the french cut less throats or something..

You see, we ignorant 'Murikans don't know French...could you please translate for us? :D

You see, we ignorant 'Murikans don't know French...could you please translate for us? :D


I know it offhand

"arise children of the fatherland
the day of glory has arrived
tyranny's bloody standard is raised against us
can you hear, in the fields
something... the ferocious soldiers
they are comming into your midst
to cut the throats of your sons and your companions.


to arms, citizens
form your batallions
march, march
let us water our fields with impure blood

The French anthem is from the French revolution in 1789 or something, if I remember correctly. They had quite a load of fighting then.
The German anthem is actually not so violent, if you know the meaning behind the "Deutschland über alles", which is not what most people think.
The US anthem is similarly speaking of war, violence and bloodshed as the French anthem, so both aren't much different. That Europeans are peaceloving to the most part has nothing to do with the anthems. The anthems are part of our respective histories, so changing them is somewhat unlikely, even if they do not represent the current national mentality.

Besides this, the US is just about the best known country in the world for excessive patriotism in any form - so that your sportsteams do not sing the anthem (and maybe even shroud themselves in a huge US flag or wear US underwear etc.) is a blatant lie.

I know it offhand

"arise children of the fatherland
the day of glory has arrived
tyranny's bloody standard is raised against us
can you hear, in the fields
something... the ferocious soldiers
they are comming into your midst
to cut the throats of your sons and your companions.


to arms, citizens
form your batallions
march, march
let us water our fields with impure blood

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORING! :D

IN any case, note that the marseillaise extolls the virtue of killing fascists.

Ein Deutscher']The French anthem is from the French revolution in 1789 or something, if I remember correctly. They had quite a load of fighting then.
The German anthem is actually not so violent, if you know the meaning behind the "Deutschland über alles", which is not what most people think.
The US anthem is similarly speaking of war, violence and bloodshed as the French anthem, so both aren't much different. That Europeans are peaceloving to the most part has nothing to do with the anthems. The anthems are part of our respective histories, so changing them is somewhat unlikely, even if they do not represent the current national mentality.


Peace-loving europe is a very new development.

Historically, the peoples of europe are some of the most warlike anywhere.

Peace-loving europe is a very new development.

Historically, the peoples of europe are some of the most warlike anywhere.
Since WW1 and WW2 not anymore. The US has since taken over. During the last 60 years, the US has been involved and/or started more wars than any other country in the world.

Ein Deutscher']Since WW1 and WW2 not anymore. The US has since taken over. During the last 60 years, the US has been involved and/or started more wars than any other country in the world.


I know, but i'm talking about in a more broad historical sense.

I know, but i'm talking about in a more broad historical sense.
The "broad history sense" might be due to the US being rather unimportant before WW1. Since the US has grown to be the superpower in the West, things have changed. I'm sure things will change again once China and/or India have taken their spots as equal superpowers next to the US. Our nations learned from the tragedies of WW2 mainly, so it's unlikely that we are going to fight again among each other in Europe.

IN any case, note that the marseillaise extolls the virtue of killing fascists.

And watering fields with blood.

Ein Deutscher']The French anthem is from the French revolution in 1789 or something, if I remember correctly. They had quite a load of fighting then.
The German anthem is actually not so violent, if you know the meaning behind the "Deutschland über alles", which is not what most people think.
The US anthem is similarly speaking of war, violence and bloodshed as the French anthem, so both aren't much different. That Europeans are peaceloving to the most part has nothing to do with the anthems. The anthems are part of our respective histories, so changing them is somewhat unlikely, even if they do not represent the current national mentality.

Besides this, the US is just about the best known country in the world for excessive patriotism in any form - so that your sportsteams do not sing the anthem (and maybe even shroud themselves in a huge US flag or wear US underwear etc.) is a blatant lie.


Germany shouldn't be a country. The fact that it is, is clearly an administrative mistake after WWII.

Ein Deutscher']Since WW1 and WW2 not anymore. The US has since taken over. During the last 60 years, the US has been involved and/or started more wars than any other country in the world.

Actually, no, it is not even close.

Not to mention the fact that the US had to protect germany for the past sixty years.

Actually, no, it is not even close.

Not to mention the fact that the US had to protect germany for the past sixty years.
45-50 years. We're unified since 1990, which was just about the time when the USSR ended. You're trying to rewrite history, hm?

Germany shouldn't be a country. The fact that it is, is clearly an administrative mistake after WWII.
The US shouldn't be a country either. The Britons should have crushed you when they had the chance to do it :rolleyes:

Ein Deutscher']45-50 years. We're unified since 1990, which was just about the time when the USSR ended. You're trying to rewrite history, hm?

No, we are still there, still defending you. God knows why though. Frankly, you are idle little gobshites that couldn't even beat the unprepared British. Germany is a joke.


Oh, and your cars suck too. And I say that from authority because I own an italian car.

No, we are still there, still defending you. God knows why though. Frankly, you are idle little gobshites that couldn't even beat the unprepared British. Germany is a joke.


Oh, and your cars suck too. And I say that from authority because I own an italian car.
You aren't defending us. We have our own military and no enemies around us that you would have to defend us from. For all I care, the US could leave our country, just like the French, Russians and Britons have already done. Maybe you should eat less Mc Donald's? Your brain is melting in fat... :p

That our cars suck is your personal opinion. However it is unbacked by reality, since our cars are our exporting good #1. Mercedes, BMW, Porsche, VW, Audi, etc. all are German cars ;)

Ein Deutscher']You aren't defending us. We have our own military and no enemies around us that you would have to defend us from. For all I care, the US could leave our country, just like the French, Russians and Britons have already done. Maybe you should eat less Mc Donald's? Your brain is melting in fat... :p


Oh.. I agree, I am sick of my government defending your idle little nation. Had it been up to me, we would have ploughed west germany into the ground and let the russians have it. As far as I am concerned, it would have been worth the risk of soviet incursion if we didn't have to put up with the fucking modern germans. BTW, enjoy your upcoming economic collapse.

But I digress, germany should be left alone, so britian can kick its ass yet again.

Edit: And I have owned a german car, frankly they are like fords with a german badge.

Oh.. I agree, I am sick of my government defending your idle little nation. Had it been up to me, we would have ploughed west germany into the ground and let the russians have it. As far as I am concerned, it would have been worth the risk of soviet incursion if we didn't have to put up with the fucking modern germans. BTW, enjoy your upcoming economic collapse.

But I digress, germany should be left alone, so britian can kick its ass yet again.
Britain can't kick our ass. They only can if the US are helping them ;)

Ein Deutscher']Britain can't kick our ass. They only can if the US are helping them ;)

Britian could take you down in less than two weeks.


(Actually, they could wipe you out in fifteen minutes, becuase they have trident subs).

:( @ some of the comments here.. why the cruelty?

Anyhow, the frequency with which your country declares war has nothing to do with whether you have a fascist government or not. Fascism is a method of dealing with people within your borders.. going after others is just warlike fascism.. so in any case, the number of times a country declares war can have little or nothing to do with treatment of its citizens and their rights to speech and assembly, etc.

Britian could take you down in less than two weeks.


(Actually, they could wipe you out in fifteen minutes, becuase they have trident subs).
Based on what facts? If Germany would deal with Britain only, Britain would be gone rather quickly. Since Britain has nukes, we'd be gone too, so nobody would win. Your perception of Germany seems to be somewhat clouded by your irrational hatred.

Ein Deutscher']Based on what facts? If Germany would deal with Britain only, Britain would be gone rather quickly. Since Britain has nukes, we'd be gone too, so nobody would win. Your perception of Germany seems to be somewhat clouded by your irrational hatred.

My british grandfather, who fought in WWII, warned me about this. You see, you don't have any nukes, britian does. So they could end the war without any trouble in under twenty minutes.

Now, let us suppose that they don't have nukes, GERMANY HAS NEVER WON A WAR AGAINST ENGLAND AND IT NEVER WILL.

You follow that. As tactical dispositions stand right now, there are presently two British divisions sitting in the middle of germany, fully equiped and ready to go to war. In the event you retards - yet again - declare war, it'll be over before it starts.

Face it, you are german, you will never win a war against the british, no-one ever does, not even the united states.

Live with it.

Such irrational pride... tsk tsk. :headbang:
To make something clear - Germany could have nukes, if we wanted to, but since we are part of the non-proliferation treaty, we respect the aim of the UN to keep nukes from spreading and becoming a worldwide threat. The possession of nukes by the UK or any other country means nothing in todays age. Nukes are uniquely unsuitable to win a war since they are suitable for large scale destruction of cities, but not of a country. You'd still have to march in with troops and take over command in the most important cities such as Berlin, Munich, Hamburg, Cologne, etc. Britain doesn't have a large enough military for that.

Britain, just like France and partly Germany, is very centralized and the destructon of London would be suitable to end any campaign. So if we needed a nuke, I guess we could just buy it from somewhere, drop it on London and end the war aswell. Considering that Britain has it's own nukes which it would drop on Berlin, we'd suffer great losses too, so nobody wins.

Ein Deutscher']Such irrational pride... tsk tsk. :headbang:

Yes, that's what hitler used to say too. But the english speaking world is now forever wise to your evil.

Sucks for you I guess.

Yes, that's what hitler used to say too. But the english speaking world is now forever wise to your evil.

Sucks for you I guess.
Got proof? I'm not Hitler, nor is Germany evil. You're just a bitter man who has much hatred towards Germany for some reason. Maybe you suffered a childhood trauma?

Ein Deutscher']Got proof? I'm not Hitler, nor is Germany evil. You're just a bitter man who has much hatred towards Germany for some reason. Maybe you suffered a childhood trauma?

Germany slaughtered over two million of my countrymen. After the first go around, we were prepared to forgive. This time not so much. For all you know, I may of had jewish relatives in germany that hitler exterminated.

As my grandfather said, germans talk of peace and they prepare for war.

Germany is evil, and your prior posts prove it.

Germany slaughtered over two million of my countrymen. After the first go around, we were prepared to forgive. This time not so much. For all you know, I may of had jewish relatives in germany that hitler exterminated.

As my grandfather said, germans talk of peace and they prepare for war.

Germany is evil, and your prior posts prove it.
My prior posts prove nothing. I'm just reacting to your ridiculous flames. Luckily most people agree that mass responsibility does not exist, otherwise the British empire would be responsible for the deaths it caused in it's colonies, the Americans would be responsible for the thousands/millions of Indians they slaughtered and so on for each and every large nation. If you think that the British are innocent of any wrongdoing, then you are mistaken.

Just a short list:
http://www.freeindia.org/biographies/greatleaders/motilalnehru/page14.htm
http://www.redress.btinternet.co.uk/amnesty.htm
http://www.blackchat.co.uk/theblackforum/forum27/9183.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,761626,00.html


No one has even attempted to quantify the casualties caused by state-backed forced labour on British-owned mines and plantations in India, Africa and Malaya. But we do know that tens of thousands of often conscripted Africans, Indians and Malays - men, women and children - were either killed or maimed constructing Britain's imperial railways. Also unquantified are the numbers of civilian deaths caused by British aerial bombing and gassing of villages in Sudan, Iraq and Palestine in the 1920 and 1930s.

Nor was the supposedly peaceful decolonisation of the British Empire without its gory cruelties. The hurried partition of the Indian subcontinent brought about a million deaths in the ensuing uncontrolled panic and violence. The brutal suppression of the Mau Mau and the detention of thousands of Kenyan peasants in concentration camps are still dimly remembered, as are the Aden killings of the 1960s. But the massacre of communist insurgents by the Scots Guard in Malaya in the 1950s, the decapitation of so-called bandits by the Royal Marine Commandos in Perak and the secret bombing of Malayan villages during the Emergency remain uninvestigated.

Now stop this ridiculous show of hatred towards me and Germany, because we have repented for 60 years for what the Nazis did during their dictatorship. You have never repented for anything your empire has done.

A facist is a politician who seeks control BOTH the economy and your personal lives, just if anybody is wondering.

The question should be, who aren't the fascists?

What the hell does this thread try to prove? That ALL french and german are fascists? That america is the greatest, most peaceful nation in the universe?

God, you must be really stupid.

Yes, the French have slaughtered thousands. So did Germans. So did Americans, in Vietnam, Serbia and Iraq. So did any other nation I can think of. Human stupidity is the same in all countries.
So you reject European ciivilization? Because if you do I just feel sorry for you.

Stop being so narrow-minded and stop generalizing. And nobody cares if you own an Italian car, which obviously doesn't prove that ALL EUROPEAN CARS SUCK. (by the way, japanese cars are the best :D).

I probably shouldn't add this, but... you know, technically Germany already invaded and took over England. All those nice A's S' and J's who wandered over from the area where Germany is now, and brought their nice Germanic language which ended up (after being concored by France and stealing French vocab) as English.

Just thought I should share.

I probably shouldn't add this, but... you know, technically Germany already invaded and took over England. All those nice A's S' and J's who wandered over from the area where Germany is now, and brought their nice Germanic language which ended up (after being concored by France and stealing French vocab) as English.

Just thought I should share.
Incidentially I'm Saxon too, so..

Americans wouldn’t do that.

Since you're leaving out the background to which the anthems where created I'll leave out something in this: :rolleyes:

“I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,”
oh yeah Americans are all fascists noone else does this.[/unseriousness]

You go from national anthems to German bashing?

I like Germans, though I don't really like their language(the grammar is really hard). I think that Hitler and all that is a thing of the past, though by some reasons Germans will always be bashed for him. The Germans of today seem almost embarrased of being Germans just because of ww2. Should Britons be ashamed of their country because of its ruthless colonialism? Or French? Hell, every great power have done really bad things(some smaller countries haven't had the opportunity, Sweden has though)

As for national anthems, the French is from the 1789 revolution(it basically calls upon workers to form battalions and fight oppression). The German, I think, switched name from Deutschland Uber Alles to Einigkeit, Recht und Freiheit(to avoid getting bashed for the title, even though I thought it meant above all else in HEART, yes loving it more than others).

Since many anthems are old they will have old ideas(such as one country's superiority).

A fascist is hard to define, today some claim that police and government is fascist. I think it can be defined as a right-oriented authoritarian government(not generally totalitarian).

Again, please stop the nation bashing. All nations have committed crimes of some sort.

Ein Deutscher']Now stop this ridiculous show of hatred towards me and Germany, because we have repented for 60 years for what the Nazis did during their dictatorship. You have never repented for anything your empire has done.

blah blah blah,


your drivel bores me. if it wasn't for the rhine army you people would already have invaded france again. you can't help yourselves, you are racial supremecists.

Again, please stop the nation bashing. All nations have committed crimes of some sort.

Yes, some - france and germany - notably more than others.

blah blah blah,


your drivel bores me. if it wasn't for the rhine army you people would already have invaded france again. you can't help yourselves, you are racial supremecists.

I've chatted with this fellow before (Deutscher). He's an unemployed East German who really has nothing better to do than blame the world for his current socioeconomic situation. Instead of doing something about his country's double digit inflation and anemic GDP, he blames the US or Great Britian for his situation. Typical I guess.

Holy Assault Rifles!
I did not now that hatred against Germans was this widespread! This is very odd.

I have to defend Germany's economy. It has suffered one terrible blow after world war one and an even worse after world war two. Factories had been destroyed, much taken by the USSR and driven into Russia. The German economy is one of the largest in the world, granted it is suffering now(but so is the US!).

World war one was not Germany's doing, it was Austria-Hungary, Russia, Serbia, Germany, and to some extent France who all share the main burden. World war two was the result of the unfair Versailles treaty(if you win a minor victory you can't humiliate your foe like that!). After world war two Germany has been a little child controlled by two angry parents(USSR and US). Today I think Germany is treated far weaker than it should.

I am not defending German behaviour during ww2 but the Holocaust was not started after a referendum, few Germans most likely knew of it(how many Russians knew of the Gulags?).

150 years ago we would have laughed if someone predicted the US becoming a super power. Or that the sun would actually set over the British Empire.

Can we not get back on topic(whatever it was) and stop bashing?

The scary one is Russias anthem...
Its exactly the same as the Soviet Anthem, with a few words changed, namely those refrencing the Soviet Union and Communism.
Did I mention that they were planning to go back to using the red star as their armies symbol?

Or maybe they already did...Ill have to look it up.

The scary one is Russias anthem...
Its exactly the same as the Soviet Anthem, with a few words changed, namely those refrencing the Soviet Union and Communism.
Did I mention that they were planning to go back to using the red star as their armies symbol?

Or maybe they already did...Ill have to look it up.

Well, noone has ever had a better national anthem! The current Russian is not very scary at all, the usual stuff about the nation being free and great and all.

I know the USSR anthem from the 1970s good, it's just about how it was formed by freeborn republics that were welded together by Russia. It's not very scary. I believe the new Russian one has references to God! The old one sure didn't!

Yes, the red star. I don't see the point of worrying. Besides, would it be economically wise to strip all of the vehicles of the old symbols? I've heard the Kremlin still features the hammer and sickle at several places.

I say again, a national anthem is not normal if it is not patriotic.

Edit:
Here is a translation of the 1977 Soviet national anthem
Unbreakable Union of freeborn Republics,
Great Russia has welded forever to stand.
Created in struggle by will of the people,
United and mighty, our Soviet land!
CHORUS:
Sing to the Motherland, home of the free,
Bulwark of peoples in brotherhood strong.
O Party of Lenin, the strength of the people,
To Communism's triumph lead us on!
Through tempests the sunrays of freedom have cheered us,
Along the new path where great Lenin did lead.
To a righteous cause he raised up the peoples,
Inspired them to labour and valourous deed.
CHORUS
In the vict'ry of Communism's deathless ideal,
We see the future of our dear land.
And to her fluttering scarlet banner,
Selflessly true we always shall stand!
CHORUS

And here is the current Russian national anthem
Russia — our blessed country,
Russia — our beloved country.
A mighty will, a great glory —
Is your inheritance for all time!

Chorus
Be glorious, our free Fatherland,
Fraternal peoples, a union for the ages,
Common wisdom handed down by our forbears
Be glorious, our country! We pride ourselves in you.

From the southern seas to the arctic circle
our forests and fields spread before you
You are unique in the world, You are without compare
The land of my birth protected by God.

Chorus

Open spaces for dreams and for living
Are opened for us by the coming years
Our strength is given to us by faith in our country
Thus it was, so it is and always will be!

Chorus

fas·cist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fshst)
n.
often Fascist An advocate or adherent of fascism.
A reactionary or dictatorial person.

adj.
often Fascist Of, advocating, or practicing fascism.
Fascist Of or relating to the regime of the Fascisti.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Italian fascista, from fascio, group. See fascism.]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
fas·cistic (f-shstk) adj.

God, you must be really stupid.


Don't call god stupid.

Cracks me up when i hear a euro crying about "bashing". You bash Americans all the time, are you so damn ignorant and arrogant to think you won't be bashed back? Build yourselves strong enough to actually DO SOMETHING in the world that needs to be done so the big bad americans don't have to handle everything. And sheesh, don;t give me the crap about "we did, really!" about Afghanistan and Serbia, 90%+ of military capability and spending came from America. Why in the world should we "listen" to you and be directed by German/Franco alliance you all keep talking about? your societies and economies are falling aoart, NICE birth rate and social spending burden, there! You are SOOOO superior! lolol

Beleive me when i say, truly, even though i am partially of german descent, every bit of scorn and derision is returned to most left wing euros that they have toward americans by most in the US right now. All the UN has become is a Israel bashing by Arab countries and European attempt to have a say toward American military and economic power. Why SHOULDN'T it be ignored?

Or instead, if we broaden the security council, etc, all military and economic burdens should be equally ditributed by division of authority. Souns ok to you left wing euros? think you are capable of even sharing THAT burden?

Yes the US is often bashed, but that is because
1. It is the world's strongest nation(for now) did Americans praise the British Empire? People/nations with power will always be bashed.
2. It has made several questionable decisions in RECENT history(just during the last few years, in fact many of the same decision makers are still in office!)

Those are the main reasons. The European nations and China, do have the military to do what the US is doing. The thing is that for example the Iraq war was questionable(in my opinion completely wrong) while in Afghanistan, well let's just say that even Sweden sent peace keeping troops(including Leopard tanks!).

Actually I do not know of any war were there was no other motive than just being nice where Europeans refused to help, or sent few troops. Korea is an example, where it was clear that the US fought against communism rather than for South Korea.

I believe that when the US loses its current position of power(most likely to China) bashing will not be as common as now. My point is that the German people and government is not very active in foreign policy, while the US has involved itself in many unpopular wars. Do even conservative republicans believe Vietnam was a good fight? Well, I guess they do. But still.

Active foreign policy= bashing
Inactive foreign policy= not as much bashing

In short: Germans are bashed for what decision makers of theirs did two generations ago. Americans are bashed for what their current decision makers do.

I do not like bashing, though I sometimes do. I just try to make it clear why some nations are bashed more than others. How many bash Liechtenstein? Or Luxembourg?

I suppose the Jews own the media too, eh?

How many bash Liechtenstein? Or Luxembourg?
Goddam Luxembourg!!!!!!!!!!!! F***ing COMMIES!!!!!! WITH ALL THEIR JUUISH BANKS!!!!!

That is irony. I am making fun of the German Bashers.

Damnit, stop bashing the Germans for what they did 60 to 90 years ago! If you're going to do that, why don't you bash America for killing the Indians, throwing them on death marches, shoving them in reservations, then forcing them on another march, untill they are only a sparse population here and there.

Damnit, stop bashing the Germans for what they did 60 to 90 years ago! If you're going to do that, why don't you bash America for killing the Indians, throwing them on death marches, shoving them in reservations, then forcing them on another march, untill they are only a sparse population here and there.

Erm, you mean 60 to 135 years ago.

Oh yes, internment camps and concencration camps are sooo similiar. Mind you, placing Japanese in internment camps wasn't right, but it was basically like any summer camp, except involuntary. Comparing that to the Holocaust is absurd.

And since when did Jews declare war on Germany?

Go to hell, Nazi. Stop giving us right wingers a bad name.

Oh yes, internment camps and concencration camps are sooo similiar. Mind you, placing Japanese in internment camps wasn't right, but it was basically like any summer camp, except involuntary. Comparing that to the Holocaust is absurd.

And since when did Jews declare war on Germany?

Go to hell, Nazi. Stop giving us right wingers a bad name.
Um, why I agree with the point of telling Mr. Troll to go to hell, I disagree that the idea that the interment camps were summer camps. In reading the descriptions from Japanese-Americans of their years there, while they were nothing close to the consentration camps of Nazi Germany, they weren't Uncle Wally's Happy Family Camp either.

All big nations have bullshitted and trampled the rights and lives of other peoples, so why don't we just leave it at taht and stop trying to see who can bash who more in order to determine which one is the fascist?

I suppose the Jews own the media too, eh? ( GEEZUS CHRIST MATE, WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN, FOX, DISNEY, HOLLYWOOD, ABC, BBC JUST TO MENTION A FEW JEWISH OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS..BUT THEN I DONT KNOW WHY I AM EVEN BOTHERING WITH YOU , AS YOUR OBVIOUSLY AN IDIOT IF YOU DID NOT KNOW THIS..ANYBODY WITH HALF A BRAIN AND 2 MINUTES SEARCHING THE NET WOULD KNOW THIS- GO AWAY DOPEY UNTIL YOUVE GOT SOMETHING INTELLIGENT TO SAY.YES THE JEWS DO OWN/CONTROL THE MAJORITY OF WHITE WESTERN COUNTRIES MEDIA..GET THAT FACT RIGHT UP YOUR KOITER)

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Oh yes, internment camps and concencration camps are sooo similiar.(GERMANY PUT THE JEWS INTO CONCENTRATION CAMP TO MAKE THEM WORK, THE AMERICANS DID THE SAME WITH THE JAPANESE..CONCENTRATION OR INTERNMENT , WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT..THEY DID THE SAME THINGS AT BOTH OF THEM, EG STARVED THEM) Mind you, placing Japanese in internment camps wasn't right, but it was basically like any summer camp, except involuntary.( STAARVING AT SUMMER CAMP, WHAT THE?) Comparing that to the Holocaust is absurd.( WHY IS THAT? OH THATS RIGHT YOU CLAIM THE GERMANS GASSED THE JEWS WHERE AS THE AMERICANS DIDNT...NOW WHAT ID LIKE TO SEE IS THE PROOF THAT THE JEWS WERE GASSED?SORRY BUT LIKE THE MAKING SOAP OUT OF JEWS ,THE GASS CHAMBER TALL STORIES DO NOT ADD UP NOR IS THERE ANY PROOF WHAT SO EVER THAT EVEN 1 JEW DIED IN 1.ANYBODY THAT HAS STUDIED BOTH SIDES OF THE HOLOHAOX STORY KNOWS THIS..PLEASE DO TELL US WHY HITLER SUPPLIED THE JEWS WITH A SWIMMING POOL AT AUSCHWITZ?PERHAPS HE WANTED TO DROWN THEM...

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And since when did Jews declare war on Germany?
=========================================

Go to hell, Nazi. Stop giving us right wingers a bad name

NAZI AND PROUD OF IT , ONLY RIGHT WING/LIBERAL/COMMY WANKERS LIKE YOURSELF GIVE PROUD WHITE PEOPLE BAD NAMES.....
===============================================

Why they voted Hitler in in the first place?
Besides this guy threatening to kill every German between 16years and 60
years?
http://www.rense.com/general45/zzo.htm

=================================================
The Jews declared war against Germany
On March 24, 1933, the Jewish World Congress, then under the leadership of
Chaim Weizman, declared war on Germany on behalf of the Jews of the world.
http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/encampment.html
===================================================

Like the yanks who rounded up all Japs?

Immediately after Japan declared war on the United States of America, the
order was issued to round up all Americans of Japanese ancestry and imprison
them in large camps. A

http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/encampment.html



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All big nations have bullshitted and trampled the rights and lives of other peoples, so why don't we just leave it at taht and stop trying to see who can bash who more in order to determine which one is the fascist?

Eh? I don't think so. I think we should look at the real offenders first. (i.e., the europeans)

Erm, you mean 60 to 135 years ago.
'The hell did they do 135 years ago?

I suppose the Jews own the media too, eh? ( GEEZUS CHRIST MATE, WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN, FOX, DISNEY, HOLLYWOOD, ABC, BBC JUST TO MENTION A FEW JEWISH OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS..BUT THEN I DONT KNOW WHY I AM EVEN BOTHERING WITH YOU , AS YOUR OBVIOUSLY AN IDIOT IF YOU DID NOT KNOW THIS..ANYBODY WITH HALF A BRAIN AND 2 MINUTES SEARCHING THE NET WOULD KNOW THIS- GO AWAY DOPEY UNTIL YOUVE GOT SOMETHING INTELLIGENT TO SAY.YES THE JEWS DO OWN/CONTROL THE MAJORITY OF WHITE WESTERN COUNTRIES MEDIA..GET THAT FACT RIGHT UP YOUR KOITER)

========================================

Oh yes, internment camps and concencration camps are sooo similiar.(GERMANY PUT THE JEWS INTO CONCENTRATION CAMP TO MAKE THEM WORK, THE AMERICANS DID THE SAME WITH THE JAPANESE..CONCENTRATION OR INTERNMENT , WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT..THEY DID THE SAME THINGS AT BOTH OF THEM, EG STARVED THEM) Mind you, placing Japanese in internment camps wasn't right, but it was basically like any summer camp, except involuntary.( STAARVING AT SUMMER CAMP, WHAT THE?) Comparing that to the Holocaust is absurd.( WHY IS THAT? OH THATS RIGHT YOU CLAIM THE GERMANS GASSED THE JEWS WHERE AS THE AMERICANS DIDNT...NOW WHAT ID LIKE TO SEE IS THE PROOF THAT THE JEWS WERE GASSED?SORRY BUT LIKE THE MAKING SOAP OUT OF JEWS ,THE GASS CHAMBER TALL STORIES DO NOT ADD UP NOR IS THERE ANY PROOF WHAT SO EVER THAT EVEN 1 JEW DIED IN 1.ANYBODY THAT HAS STUDIED BOTH SIDES OF THE HOLOHAOX STORY KNOWS THIS..PLEASE DO TELL US WHY HITLER SUPPLIED THE JEWS WITH A SWIMMING POOL AT AUSCHWITZ?PERHAPS HE WANTED TO DROWN THEM...

========================================

And since when did Jews declare war on Germany?
=========================================

Go to hell, Nazi. Stop giving us right wingers a bad name

NAZI AND PROUD OF IT , ONLY RIGHT WING/LIBERAL/COMMY WANKERS LIKE YOURSELF GIVE PROUD WHITE PEOPLE BAD NAMES.....
===============================================

Why they voted Hitler in in the first place?
Besides this guy threatening to kill every German between 16years and 60
years?
http://www.rense.com/general45/zzo.htm

=================================================
The Jews declared war against Germany
On March 24, 1933, the Jewish World Congress, then under the leadership of
Chaim Weizman, declared war on Germany on behalf of the Jews of the world.
http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/encampment.html
===================================================

Like the yanks who rounded up all Japs?

Immediately after Japan declared war on the United States of America, the
order was issued to round up all Americans of Japanese ancestry and imprison
them in large camps. A

http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/encampment.html



HAS IT STARTED AGAIN?



http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.12.19/news4a.html

FORWARD : News
... Written by Rabbi Saadya Grama - an alumnus of Beth Medrash Govoha, the
renowned yeshiva in ... institution's foremost religious leader, or rosh
yeshiva, Rabbi Aryeh Malkiel Kotler. ...
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yeshiva, Rabbi Aryeh Malkiel Kotler. ...
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yeshiva, Rabbi Aryeh Malkiel Kotler. ...
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STFU

I suppose the Jews own the media too, eh? ( GEEZUS CHRIST MATE, WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN, FOX, DISNEY, HOLLYWOOD, ABC, BBC JUST TO MENTION A FEW JEWISH OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS..BUT THEN I DONT KNOW WHY I AM EVEN BOTHERING WITH YOU , AS YOUR OBVIOUSLY AN IDIOT IF YOU DID NOT KNOW THIS..ANYBODY WITH HALF A BRAIN AND 2 MINUTES SEARCHING THE NET WOULD KNOW THIS- GO AWAY DOPEY UNTIL YOUVE GOT SOMETHING INTELLIGENT TO SAY.YES THE JEWS DO OWN/CONTROL THE MAJORITY OF WHITE WESTERN COUNTRIES MEDIA..GET THAT FACT RIGHT UP YOUR KOITER)

========================================

Oh yes, internment camps and concencration camps are sooo similiar.(GERMANY PUT THE JEWS INTO CONCENTRATION CAMP TO MAKE THEM WORK, THE AMERICANS DID THE SAME WITH THE JAPANESE..CONCENTRATION OR INTERNMENT , WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT..THEY DID THE SAME THINGS AT BOTH OF THEM, EG STARVED THEM) Mind you, placing Japanese in internment camps wasn't right, but it was basically like any summer camp, except involuntary.( STAARVING AT SUMMER CAMP, WHAT THE?) Comparing that to the Holocaust is absurd.( WHY IS THAT? OH THATS RIGHT YOU CLAIM THE GERMANS GASSED THE JEWS WHERE AS THE AMERICANS DIDNT...NOW WHAT ID LIKE TO SEE IS THE PROOF THAT THE JEWS WERE GASSED?SORRY BUT LIKE THE MAKING SOAP OUT OF JEWS ,THE GASS CHAMBER TALL STORIES DO NOT ADD UP NOR IS THERE ANY PROOF WHAT SO EVER THAT EVEN 1 JEW DIED IN 1.ANYBODY THAT HAS STUDIED BOTH SIDES OF THE HOLOHAOX STORY KNOWS THIS..PLEASE DO TELL US WHY HITLER SUPPLIED THE JEWS WITH A SWIMMING POOL AT AUSCHWITZ?PERHAPS HE WANTED TO DROWN THEM...

========================================

And since when did Jews declare war on Germany?
=========================================

Go to hell, Nazi. Stop giving us right wingers a bad name

NAZI AND PROUD OF IT , ONLY RIGHT WING/LIBERAL/COMMY WANKERS LIKE YOURSELF GIVE PROUD WHITE PEOPLE BAD NAMES.....
===============================================

Why they voted Hitler in in the first place?
Besides this guy threatening to kill every German between 16years and 60
years?
http://www.rense.com/general45/zzo.htm

=================================================
The Jews declared war against Germany
On March 24, 1933, the Jewish World Congress, then under the leadership of
Chaim Weizman, declared war on Germany on behalf of the Jews of the world.
http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/encampment.html
===================================================

Like the yanks who rounded up all Japs?

Immediately after Japan declared war on the United States of America, the
order was issued to round up all Americans of Japanese ancestry and imprison
them in large camps. A

http://www.corax.org/revisionism/misc/encampment.html



HAS IT STARTED AGAIN?



http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.12.19/news4a.html

FORWARD : News
... Written by Rabbi Saadya Grama - an alumnus of Beth Medrash Govoha, the
renowned yeshiva in ... institution's foremost religious leader, or rosh
yeshiva, Rabbi Aryeh Malkiel Kotler. ...
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I have no idea what any of this means. Can anyone explain it.

Eh? I don't think so. I think we should look at the real offenders first. (i.e., the europeans)

By God, you are so narrow-minded. If you're going after them for being imperialists, don't worry, the US isn't much different, cuz that's what we're currently beginning to do (although not openly) in the middle east, because..we..need..more..oil. And don't forget the precision bombing.

'The hell did they do 135 years ago?

Invaded france to steal alsace-loraine? Maybe.

Germans are bad people. They are behaving now exactly the way my grandfather warned me about. Denouncing everyone for being millitaristic, while building up their own forces claiming it is thier right.

He said they would do this.

I have no idea what any of this means. Can anyone explain it.
he's saying the holocaust didn't happen and the white race is being destroyed by Jews

Invaded france to steal alsace-loraine? Maybe.

Germans are bad people. They are behaving now exactly the way my grandfather warned me about. Denouncing everyone for being millitaristic, while building up their own forces claiming it is thier right.

He said they would do this.

WHEE, one guy is defending his nation against your flames, and of course, by reasonable logic, he represents the views of all the German peoples, and simply by defending his nation's honor, he is a F***ing supremacist, and wants to rule the world. And by that, I mean all Germans want to rule the world [/heavy and unecessary sarcasm]

BTW, i don't see the Germans building up much of a military, or calling everyone a militarist. if Germany ever does, (and believe me, it never will again) get the idea to rule Europe, the combined military might of Europe is enough to pound them into the ground. And if anyone learned a lesson in history, they will not side with Germany again, because they've always lost. And you're also being very stereotypical about the Germans, just thought you might want to know that.

I suppose the Jews own the media too, eh? ( GEEZUS CHRIST MATE, WHERE THE FUCK HAVE YOU BEEN, FOX, DISNEY, HOLLYWOOD, ABC, BBC JUST TO MENTION A FEW JEWISH OWNED MEDIA OUTLETS..BUT THEN I DONT KNOW WHY I AM EVEN BOTHERING WITH YOU , AS YOUR OBVIOUSLY AN IDIOT IF YOU DID NOT KNOW THIS..ANYBODY WITH HALF A BRAIN AND 2 MINUTES SEARCHING THE NET WOULD KNOW THIS- GO AWAY DOPEY UNTIL YOUVE GOT SOMETHING INTELLIGENT TO SAY.YES THE JEWS DO OWN/CONTROL THE MAJORITY OF WHITE WESTERN COUNTRIES MEDIA..GET THAT FACT RIGHT UP YOUR KOITER)
Well, having one trolling post deleted and being warned for flaming in another thread obviously didn't make much of an impact, so I guess we do this the hard way.

Dazzlingdazza, Forumban for 7 days, flaming and trolling

While you're gone, see if you can't get that CapsLock key fixed.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

WHEE, one guy is defending his nation against your flames, and of course, by reasonable logic, he represents the views of all the German peoples, and simply by defending his nation's honor, he is a F***ing supremacist, and wants to rule the world. And by that, I mean all Germans want to rule the world [/heavy and unecessary sarcasm]


You know, this argument was thrashed out in the early 1930s. Turns out that I am right.

BTW, i don't see the Germans building up much of a military, or calling everyone a militarist. if Germany ever does, (and believe me, it never will again) get the idea to rule Europe, the combined military might of Europe is enough to pound them into the ground. And if anyone learned a lesson in history, they will not side with Germany again, because they've always lost. And you're also being very stereotypical about the Germans, just thought you might want to know that.

Yah, well you know a few dead relatives will do that to you. I don't like germans getting on their soap-box about other people's millitarism

What argument? I was just being a dick when I said that first part.

You can't help but think in terms of black and white.
Ex: Germany BAAD
Germany :sniper:
Britain GOOOOD
Britain :fluffle:

No, seriously. That might be an exaggeration, but that's the way you see this, and all your arguments and beliefs are taken right from your grandfather, so you're just spouting back his rhetoric at us.
I'm just saying: You're biased.

So is this debate just idle people with differing ideas or is there some real point to this that is hidden from the rest of us? There exsists not on this earth one country that has niether commited atrocities either to its own people, or to others outside its borders. The only thing that keeps us all civil is the fact that no one wants all out war, or the effects there of. We as a world are thankful that a nieve hothead has not started another war in the name of some obscure, irrational hate... I awate someone to take over this pathetic world and end the ever pointless debate that we are from different countries and we can't get it that we all are still human, and not all that different. Humans are the only ones to blame. Not Germans or English or Americans.

No, seriously. That might be an exaggeration, but that's the way you see this, and all your arguments and beliefs are taken right from your grandfather, so you're just spouting back his rhetoric at us.
I'm just saying: You're biased.

Look I appreciate that you follow the Ramsey Macdonalds of this world. He was basically a good man, and I won't say anything against him.

But someone has to watch the germans. Look at their history.

Eh? I don't think so. I think we should look at the real offenders first. (i.e., the europeans)
You're just mad because we thought of it first. :p

And stop defending Britain. I was proud to be British until you started defending it...

You're just mad because we thought of it first. :p

And stop defending Britain. I was proud to be British until you started defending it...

I am immensely proud of my british blood. I will never stop defending britain. Except for Tony Blair. He can fuck off.

It's just humiliating, having you defend Britain while at the same time saying such outrageously stupid things about France and Germany. If you're proud of your British heritage, stop destroying our credibility by siding with us.

It's just humiliating, having you defend Britain while at the same time saying such outrageously stupid things about France and Germany. If you're proud of your British heritage, stop destroying our credibility by siding with us.

Oh, so as a British Citizen, I am no longer allowed to voice my opinions, because they don't agree with your appeasement agenda?

That's nice.

I don't have an "appeasement agenda", I simply take issue with your attempts to excuse the US's recent misdeeds by pointing out bad things that other nations did decades ago. Even if France and Germany were still pursuing such an aggressive and imperialist foreign policy as the US is, would that excuse the US? No. That's like saying "it doesn't matter that I beat up Billy Jones, because Simon Smith beat him up first!"

Patriotism is ignoble. It is an obstacle for the achievement of peace.

I don't have an "appeasement agenda", I simply take issue with your attempts to excuse the US's recent misdeeds by pointing out bad things that other nations did decades ago. Even if France and Germany were still pursuing such an aggressive and imperialist foreign policy as the US is, would that excuse the US? No. That's like saying "it doesn't matter that I beat up Billy Jones, because Simon Smith beat him up first!"

Eh? What recent misdeeds?

Our national anthem was created after theirs, so we got caught with a crappy lines....

As an American I guess I feel sort of an obligation to stand up for my country, because honestly it seems like nobody here knows a god damned thing about America.

The Bush Administration has shown that it is hostile to foreign nations, yes. But that doesn't make America an imperialist nation by any means. If you want to call American politicians imperialist fine, we don't like our politicians anyway. Saying that our entire country is imperialist though is complete and utter biased bullshit. We were imperialist in the late 1800's and early 1900's. We've shaken off that disgusting policy, a notable example would be giving the Filipinos their deserved independence in 1946.

I won't lie and say that America is not warlike, and I won't lie and say that the Bush administration doesn't have its eyes set on the destruction of some foreign governments. But I also won't lie and give into bullshit about America being imperialist. And before anyone brings up Vietnam I'd like to point out that we sent our military there to appease the French and guarantee their support in the Cold War.

Having a gory national anthem is obviously much worse than dropping bombs on hungry children.

Ein Deutscher']Since WW1 and WW2 not anymore. The US has since taken over. During the last 60 years, the US has been involved and/or started more wars than any other country in the world.
Yeah, we do have a tendency to finish what others start. Call it a weakness.

Having a gory national anthem is obviously much worse than dropping bombs on hungry children.
Sorry, but other than the Germans, I don't know anyone who slaughters hungry children. Maybe the Khymer Rouge, but they're no longer with us.

Sorry, but other than the Germans, I don't know anyone who slaughters hungry children. Maybe the Khymer Rouge, but they're no longer with us.

Whatever...

Let's not even bring up John Brown's Body and it's successor Battle Hymn Of The Republic - not exactly bloody, but violent nonetheless.

But neither would prove anything!

I'm an American - and beyond that, one of British Isles and Germanic descent. I find the concept, and the debate, pathetic.

The reason that the EU exists - created upon principles that were already laid out in the 1800s (Victor Hugo wrote - and dreamed - of a day when there might be a "United States Of Europe") - is to prevent war.

The great significance of the EU's predecessors is that two archrivals - the French and the Germans - entered into firm commercial treaties, and that has since evolved into a continent wide system.

No - the Germans, nor the Brits, will ever defeat each other in battle, for they are never meant to meet in battle ever again - only to serve, should the need arise, as comrades in arms.

And we should be glad of that - the English were able to consolidate control over the Isles because they were isolated from the Continent by water, which eventually led to the UK's domination of the world's oceans, and their vast global empire. (It was that empire that eventually forced it to disband that very same empire as a result of two terribly costly World Wars - had the US not entered, and had Hitler not stupidly attacked the USSR, the UK too might have fallen...).

Further, we should be glad, that much of the impetus of the EU is to pacify those who might otherwise be aggressors. Germany is home to the largest population in Europe (barring Russia), and has industry beyond most others - it was factors such as these that led to Germany's war machine of the World Wars. As warring states, the German peoples were ineffectual, but united under the Prussians, guided by Bismarck, they were a force to be reckoned with. Had Jutland gone differently, it might have been the Germans, and not the British, that dominated the seas in the years leading up to WWII.

It is ironic that a claim of "this proves we're more peaceful than you" turns almost immediately into a war of words.

Be glad, Miss Pacman Lover - whether you live in the UK, saved from German domination by Hitler's blunder and America's entrance, or whether you live in the US and were spared from years of fascist rule - that you are able to engage in such a war short of violence.

Let's not even bring up John Brown's Body and it's successor Battle Hymn Of The Republic - not exactly bloody, but violent nonetheless.

But neither would prove anything!

I'm an American - and beyond that, one of British Isles and Germanic descent. I find the concept, and the debate, pathetic.

The reason that the EU exists - created upon principles that were already laid out in the 1800s (Victor Hugo wrote - and dreamed - of a day when there might be a "United States Of Europe") - is to prevent war.

The great significance of the EU's predecessors is that two archrivals - the French and the Germans - entered into firm commercial treaties, and that has since evolved into a continent wide system.

No - the Germans, nor the Brits, will ever defeat each other in battle, for they are never meant to meet in battle ever again - only to serve, should the need arise, as comrades in arms.

And we should be glad of that - the English were able to consolidate control over the Isles because they were isolated from the Continent by water, which eventually led to the UK's domination of the world's oceans, and their vast global empire. (It was that empire that eventually forced it to disband that very same empire as a result of two terribly costly World Wars - had the US not entered, and had Hitler not stupidly attacked the USSR, the UK too might have fallen...).

Further, we should be glad, that much of the impetus of the EU is to pacify those who might otherwise be aggressors. Germany is home to the largest population in Europe (barring Russia), and has industry beyond most others - it was factors such as these that led to Germany's war machine of the World Wars. As warring states, the German peoples were ineffectual, but united under the Prussians, guided by Bismarck, they were a force to be reckoned with. Had Jutland gone differently, it might have been the Germans, and not the British, that dominated the seas in the years leading up to WWII.

It is ironic that a claim of "this proves we're more peaceful than you" turns almost immediately into a war of words.

Be glad, Miss Pacman Lover - whether you live in the UK, saved from German domination by Hitler's blunder and America's entrance, or whether you live in the US and were spared from years of fascist rule - that you are able to engage in such a war short of violence.


Welcome to NS. That's a nice first post.

Lacadaemon:
Invaded france to steal alsace-loraine? Maybe.

Germans are bad people. They are behaving now exactly the way my grandfather warned me about. Denouncing everyone for being millitaristic, while building up their own forces claiming it is thier right.

He said they would do this.

They're bad people. Wasn't there some infamous German dude who insisted that all the Jews (and Roma, and Catholics, and Jehovah's Witnesses and...) were bad people? Prejudice is fun, ain't it? Fortunately, some of us are above courtesy and hypocrisy...

And no - Hitler being German doesn't mean Germans are "bad". It means he and his cronies were seriously deranged, and that they managed to whip up some Germans into a frenzy to follow them and caused everyone else to fear for their lives if they opposed them.

Nevermind that they aren't building up their military - it's limited, albeit not to the same extent as Japan's military.

Incidentally, one reason neighboring countries are happy that both Germany and Japan do NOT have large militaries lies in that those same countries have long memories, and remember the carnage wreaked upon them by the Axis militaries...

But someone has to watch the germans. Look at their history.

Not to mention those Russians - they had an empire under the Tsar, an empire under the Bolsheviks, and Putin would just love to have some of the CIS back in the Russian fold... oh, and those French - Napoleon had control over Europe longer than Hitler. And don't forget the Austrians and Hungarians - their empire was rather sizable before the Treaty of Versailles, they might want it back. And the Poles and Lithuanians - they had a large empire that lasted a millenia before being partitioned by the Prussians, Russians, and Austrians... And the Turks - they might want the Balkans back, and we can't have those Muslims invading Europe again (nevermind that Turkey's secular, we can hate Muslims and secularists alike, right?)...

Fortunately, the British can be left alone. They never, say, controlled much of North America before losing it to those weakling Americans... and certainly never had a global empire that was conquered by its armies with the backing and support of its glorious fleets... and they certainly had never tried to conquer, say, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland and oppress the native Celtic peoples, and certainly never invaded France to impose their claim to the French crown and French land... never never never.

Eutrusca:
Sorry, but other than the Germans, I don't know anyone who slaughters hungry children. Maybe the Khymer Rouge, but they're no longer with us.

'Cause you know you can't go a day without reading in the news how those bloody Germans are sacrificing babies to Norse gods...

Reality check, anyone?

General of general:

I was accidentally logged in under that account... so it's not my first, but between this, that, and a few others, it's probably number 6. ;) Thanks, though. A pet peeve is when simple minds take simple approaches to horribly complex and nuanced matters...

::regarding the french anthem::

bah, thats all bark. they sure as hell have no bite.

General of general:

I was accidentally logged in under that account... so it's not my first, but between this, that, and a few others, it's probably number 6. ;) Thanks, though. A pet peeve is when simple minds take simple approaches to horribly complex and nuanced matters...

Oh...Well, welcome nevertheless, and it's still a good post.

The question should be, who aren't the fascists?What? WHAT?! THEY'RE EVERYWHERE! RUN!

Americans are all godless heathens!

My proof? Our national anthem has more god in it than theirs.

Eutrusca:

'Cause you know you can't go a day without reading in the news how those bloody Germans are sacrificing babies to Norse gods...

Reality check, anyone?
Want a reality check? Here ... have this one: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143

Ein Deutscher']The US shouldn't be a country either. The Britons should have crushed you when they had the chance to do it :rolleyes:

Blame the Hessians! :D

Blame the Hessians! :D
ROFLMAO!!! :D

Want a reality check? Here ... have this one: http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/index.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005143

"Sorry, but other than the Germans, I don't know anyone who slaughters hungry children." quoth she.

"Slaughters" vs "slaughtered". Hence the remark about reading it in the news, daily. Earlier in this thread I made reference to not just the Jews but also the Roma, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, among others, who were mercilessly slaughtered by the Nazis (I recently wrote something in depth on that very topic, "mercilessly slaughtered" is quoting myself, I could pull up the entire thing if I needed to).

Germans do not slaughter children today - neither did most Germans during the Holocaust. I read your comment, modified by the Khmer Rouge remark (which is much more recent than WWII, if still dated), as applying to the present day.

Everyone slaughtered children in the past - women, children, men, animals, whatever they decided needed slaughtering. The Holocaust is the worst example of that. If, however, you can provide a modern example of those evil Germans slaughtering children today, I'll have to accept an entire new view of the world.

"Sorry, but other than the Germans, I don't know anyone who slaughters hungry children." quoth she.

"Slaughters" vs "slaughtered". Hence the remark about reading it in the news, daily. Earlier in this thread I made reference to not just the Jews but also the Roma, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, among others, who were mercilessly slaughtered by the Nazis (I recently wrote something in depth on that very topic, "mercilessly slaughtered" is quoting myself, I could pull up the entire thing if I needed to).

Germans do not slaughter children today - neither did most Germans during the Holocaust. I read your comment, modified by the Khmer Rouge remark (which is much more recent than WWII, if still dated), as applying to the present day.

Everyone slaughtered children in the past - women, children, men, animals, whatever they decided needed slaughtering. The Holocaust is the worst example of that. If, however, you can provide a modern example of those evil Germans slaughtering children today, I'll have to accept an entire new view of the world.
He won't find one, because it's utter bullshit. :mad:

Lacadaemon's entire arguement is pathetic. You judge how evil a country is by its politics and how many countries it bombs the crap out of per week, not by its national anthem. I commend the French for admitting their own violent history, instead of deluding themselves that they live in a land of freedom and liberty, like the Americans.

How about the 15 thousand Iraqi children who were killed at the hands of America? Surely that's worse than having a gory national anthem?

Ein Deutscher']The French anthem is from the French revolution in 1789 or something, if I remember correctly. They had quite a load of fighting then.
The German anthem is actually not so violent, if you know the meaning behind the "Deutschland über alles", which is not what most people think.
The US anthem is similarly speaking of war, violence and bloodshed as the French anthem, so both aren't much different. That Europeans are peaceloving to the most part has nothing to do with the anthems. The anthems are part of our respective histories, so changing them is somewhat unlikely, even if they do not represent the current national mentality.

Besides this, the US is just about the best known country in the world for excessive patriotism in any form - so that your sportsteams do not sing the anthem (and maybe even shroud themselves in a huge US flag or wear US underwear etc.) is a blatant lie.

What about the British, we have some old woman in charge of us that we have to sing about, this country needs reform, Get rid of the monarchy, get rid of the lords and introduce a system such as in america, except with more mainstream parties not just two, we could even keep the houses of parliament and rename them the Houses of Reprasentatives. and we'd get rid of the NHS, pribvatise it, thats what I say, and schools, think how low the taxes would go. Lower immigration, buy part of France, reclaim Ireland, back to the good old days of the British Empire, but this time it would be the British-American Empire, much better don't ya think. Oh yeah and reintroduce the death penalty for more serious crimes.

What about the British, we have some old woman in charge of us that we have to sing about, this country needs reform, Get rid of the monarchy, get rid of the lords and introduce a system such as in america, except with more mainstream parties not just two, we could even keep the houses of parliament and rename them the Houses of Reprasentatives. and we'd get rid of the NHS, pribvatise it, thats what I say, and schools, think how low the taxes would go. Lower immigration, buy part of France, reclaim Ireland, back to the good old days of the British Empire, but this time it would be the British-American Empire, much better don't ya think. Oh yeah and reintroduce the death penalty for more serious crimes.

Trust me, you don't want to privatize NHS. I don't think you want anything close to America's health care system, which consumes 15% of GDP (and that figure is growing) and yet leaves 40 million people without healthcare. :rolleyes:

What about the British, we have some old woman in charge of us that we have to sing about, this country needs reform, Get rid of the monarchy, get rid of the lords and introduce a system such as in america, except with more mainstream parties not just two, we could even keep the houses of parliament and rename them the Houses of Reprasentatives. and we'd get rid of the NHS, pribvatise it, thats what I say, and schools, think how low the taxes would go. Lower immigration, buy part of France, reclaim Ireland, back to the good old days of the British Empire, but this time it would be the British-American Empire, much better don't ya think. Oh yeah and reintroduce the death penalty for more serious crimes.

Luckily the unelected old woman has no power (exept dismissing the Aussie parliament! ) unlike the american unelected old man who ahs far to much power. All well and good reform, btu the american system is hardly to most democratic in the world to use as a model. Unless your post is sarcasm. I dont mind what your sayign then.

Ein Deutscher']He won't find one, because it's utter bullshit. :mad:

Yes... though I think it was simply a matter of misunderstanding her on my part, and then me on her.

How about the 15 thousand Iraqi children who were killed at the hands of America? Surely that's worse than having a gory national anthem?
Proof. Proof. Proof!

Proof. Proof. Proof!

He's making it all up, American bombs have special built-in child-detectors which guide the bombs away from children.

He's making it all up, American bombs have special built-in child-detectors which guide the bombs away from children.

We do not target civilians, EVER. How could 15 THOUSAND Iraqi kids die, unless the Republican Guard forced them to line up beside ammo bunkers and fuel tanks? (Which didn't happen, despite the fact that they were morally evil enough to do it.)

We do not target civilians, EVER. How could 15 THOUSAND Iraqi kids die, unless the Republican Guard forced them to line up beside ammo bunkers and fuel tanks? (Which didn't happen, despite the fact that they were morally evil enough to do it.)

I never said they were targeted...It's just what happens when you drop bombs on cities.

We do not target civilians, EVER. How could 15 THOUSAND Iraqi kids die, unless the Republican Guard forced them to line up beside ammo bunkers and fuel tanks? (Which didn't happen, despite the fact that they were morally evil enough to do it.)

Amazing, when we fought off the Germans for the French, it was "yay America! Thank god they saved the country we gave up to the German!" The moment we Americans are no longer bailing European butts out of their own mess, we become evil killers. I remember a lot more fotage of Iraqi dead under Saddam the ever from Americans.

We do not target civilians, EVER. How could 15 THOUSAND Iraqi kids die, unless the Republican Guard forced them to line up beside ammo bunkers and fuel tanks? (Which didn't happen, despite the fact that they were morally evil enough to do it.)

Doesn't mean they don't die. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is a conservative tally - 20,000-25,000, all culled from military and media reports. Estimates reach as high as 100,000+ civilian deaths during the occupation, not limited to those killed directly or indirectly by American military action.

Organizations such as the International Red Cross And Red Crescent, even two years ago, stated that casualities were "too high to count" http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0406-02.htm I can not find a numerical estimate on the part of the IRC, I assume they don't try.

"Not targetting civilians" simply means that we abide by ethical rules of conduct (such as those found in the Geneva conventions). They still die, directly or otherwise. Whether "collateral damage" is unavoidable or undesirable may be argued upon by Rumsfeld, but it's a tragedy regardless.

Doesn't mean they don't die. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ is a conservative tally - 20,000-25,000, all culled from military and media reports. Estimates reach as high as 100,000+ civilian deaths during the occupation, not limited to those killed directly or indirectly by American military action.

Organizations such as the International Red Cross And Red Crescent, even two years ago, stated that casualities were "too high to count" http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0406-02.htm I can not find a numerical estimate on the part of the IRC, I assume they don't try.

"Not targetting civilians" simply means that we abide by ethical rules of conduct (such as those found in the Geneva conventions). They still die, directly or otherwise. Whether "collateral damage" is unavoidable or undesirable may be argued upon by Rumsfeld, but it's a tragedy regardless.

Yeah, too damn bad the "innocent" dead didnt take care of their problem in the first place. If they got rid of Saddam themselves, we wouldnt need to be here

Yeah, too damn bad the "innocent" dead didnt take care of their problem in the first place. If they got rid of Saddam themselves, we wouldnt need to be here

I don't remember many people asking "you" to.

Yeah, too damn bad the "innocent" dead didnt take care of their problem in the first place. If they got rid of Saddam themselves, we wouldnt need to be here

A true humanitarian.

Too damn bad that we care about the Iraqi people enough to kill them in order to save them from themselves, neh?

I don't remember many people asking "you" to.

Reagan's psychics channeled the spirits of those killed under Saddam. Reagan told G. H. W. Bush, who in turn told G. W. Bush, who in turn informed the nation of the request.

Reagan's psychics channeled the spirits of those killed under Saddam. Reagan told G. H. W. Bush, who in turn told G. W. Bush, who in turn informed the nation of the request.

I thought the message came from Jesus ;)

A true humanitarian.

Too damn bad that we care about the Iraqi people enough to kill them in order to save them from themselves, neh?


I never said I care about the Iraqi people. Tell the truth, This is about power raw and simple. Bush will say it is to help out the Iraqi's to give people a feel good, but dont kid yourself. This is about making a pro-US country in a critical location. I, beliving in Pan Americana or Mannifest Destiny or whatever you want to see it as, will accept collateral damage as a by product of protecting MY Country

I thought the message came from Jesus ;)

Golgotha, Baghdad; Pilate, Hussein - it's all the same! :cool:

Reagan once (mis)quoted John Adams by saying "Facts are stupid things" - that has become the Bush Administration's mantra.

I never said I care about the Iraqi people. Tell the truth, This is about power raw and simple. Bush will say it is to help out the Iraqi's to give people a feel good, but dont kid yourself. This is about making a pro-US country in a critical location. I, beliving in Pan Americana or Mannifest Destiny or whatever you want to see it as, will accept collateral damage as a by product of protecting MY Country

Realpolitik - how I've missed it!

Bush and his administration have already changed their reason for "liberating" the Iraqi people on multiple occasions. We've got millions of poor dupes who believe it's about the WMD, or about liberation, or about revenge, or even oil. Yes, absolutely - it's about sheer power.

And that's precisely why the Geneva Accords exist. When it comes down to "My country, right or wrong", people don't care about civilians, or torture, or anything. Humanity's humanity vanishes as soon as other members of humanity are turned into demons (making it "OK" to kill, torture, etc).

My question is, if the Europeans are such peaceable and more enlightened people, how comes they still allow their sports teams to bellow this kind of crap out when they show up around the world? Americans wouldn’t do that.
It doesn't prove that the French aren't peaceful. It proves that the revolution which founded France was extremely violent. Much more so than the American revolution. Also, the American national anthem was written 36 years after the revolutionary war started, so perhaps the passions had died down a bit.

I never said I care about the Iraqi people. Tell the truth, This is about power raw and simple. Bush will say it is to help out the Iraqi's to give people a feel good, but dont kid yourself. This is about making a pro-US country in a critical location. I, beliving in Pan Americana or Mannifest Destiny or whatever you want to see it as, will accept collateral damage as a by product of protecting MY Country

So, basically your logic is: "What people are saying is true, but I don't give a shit" ?

And it's "Pax Americana".

So, basically your logic is: "What people are saying is true, but I don't give a shit" ?

And it's "Pax Americana".

It'll be "Pan" once we've taken over the world. Bwahaha! :D

It'll be "Pan" once we've taken over the world. Bwahaha! :D

:D I guess. But what's this Manifest Destiny he's refering to?

So, basically your logic is: "What people are saying is true, but I don't give a shit" ?

And it's "Pax Americana".


You are correct on both statements, forgive the typo please. Yes, I dont give a shit if people think it is wrong, in fact I am willing to risk injury or death for it. How many of the Anti-American Americans or Europeans can make that statement? I at least respect the suicide bombers over here, because they are willing to die to stop me.

:D I guess. But what's this Manifest Destiny he's refering to?

Manifest Destiny... well, what it isn't is anything peaceful.

Manifest Destiny is a concept and phrase from the early 1800s (1830s and 1840s, especially), by which it was the manifest destiny of the United States to span from ocean to ocean. It was under this phrase that the US annexed Texas, invaded Mexico, cheated and slaughtered Native Americans, and generally had a grand old time amassing the bulk of its current land mass.

Expanded, it's the idea that America is a chosen country, destined to this or that. God Bless America and all that.

Lebensraum achieves similar results.

You are correct on both statements, forgive the typo please. Yes, I dont give a shit if people think it is wrong, in fact I am willing to risk injury or death for it. How many of the Anti-American Americans or Europeans can make that statement? I at least respect the suicide bombers over here, because they are willing to die to stop me.

I don't why there has to be so much bloodshed and invasions to achive this peace of yours. If all you guys really desired was peace and you don't care about other people, then why not participate in the UN, stop meddling in the middle-east and stop being assholes. Since your "enemies" are "terrorists", that's the solution that would seem to make the most sense, wouldn't it? The only sure way of creating terrorists is by invading and occupying places.

Manifest Destiny... well, what it isn't is anything peaceful.

Manifest Destiny is a concept and phrase from the early 1800s (1830s and 1840s, especially), by which it was the manifest destiny of the United States to span from ocean to ocean. It was under this phrase that the US annexed Texas, invaded Mexico, cheated and slaughtered Native Americans, and generally had a grand old time amassing the bulk of its current land mass.

Expanded, it's the idea that America is a chosen country, destined to this or that. God Bless America and all that.

Lebensraum achieves similar results.

wow! But it's obsolete, right? I mean...Politicians wouldn't use this concept today, would they?

was not mr. A. Hitler an Austrian?

And Kaiser Bills' mum was born at buckingham palace? Daughter of one queen Victoria....

So, a 1/2 Brit started that war :D

...which led to the 2nd. A pity Lac is offline.

wow! But it's obsolete, right? I mean...Politicians wouldn't use this concept today, would they?

Not by name - my fellow citizens are notorious for their poor grasp on history, it'd be lost on them! *sigh*

Southern politicians still use racial prejudices. There was a push poll campaign during the 2000 Republican Primary that made it seem that McCain had fathered a "colored" child (he had adopted a child of Bengali descent, I think). Can't imagine why any political group would do such a thing as that in South Carolina...

I don't why there has to be so much bloodshed and invasions to achive this peace of yours. If all you guys really desired was peace and you don't care about other people, then why not participate in the UN, stop meddling in the middle-east and stop being assholes. Since your "enemies" are "terrorists", that's the solution that would seem to make the most sense, wouldn't it? The only sure way of creating terrorists is by invading and occupying places.


Um we do participate in the UN, however, we retain our balls to take care of our own bussiness, The countrys of Europe screwed with the middle east long before we did and some of what Europe did is comming to fruit now. And when the time comes when no Irish kid is killed by a car bomb in his own country, we can talk about making terrorists.

was not mr. A. Hitler an Austrian?

And Kaiser Bills' mum was born at buckingham palace? Daughter of one queen Victoria....

So, a 1/2 Brit started that war :D

...which led to the 2nd. A pity Lac is offline.

:D

Sure, the monarchies of Europe were a bunch of inbred, high born, hicks. But who's counting? (Nicholas II and George V, kings of Russia and the UK in 1913, were first cousins who looked identical to the eye!)

Personally, I think that the Mongols had the best monarchy. Genghis Khan is such a cool name :p

Um we do participate in the UN, however, we retain our balls to take care of our own bussiness, The countrys of Europe screwed with the middle east long before we did and some of what Europe did is comming to fruit now. And when the time comes when no Irish kid is killed by a car bomb in his own country, we can talk about making terrorists.

The IRA, of course, is a pan European group, so it's ok to make a broad generalization from the state of Irish-Anglo affairs and apply it to the whole of the Continent.

Europe sowed the seeds, the USA is reaping the harvest and planting its own seeds. If we wished to avoid the mistakes of the past, we would be advocating a division of Iraq into natural demographical regions. The problem is that whether the Kurds remained in Iraq or seceded, the potential for future violence is only slightly greater should they secede outright.

:D

Sure, the monarchies of Europe were a bunch of inbred, high born, hicks. But who's counting? (Nicholas II and George V, kings of Russia and the UK in 1913, were first cousins who looked identical to the eye!)

Did they play the banjo?

Did they play the banjo?
No, but they had bad teeth and there were dogs under the porch...

Um we do participate in the UN, however, we retain our balls to take care of our own bussiness, The countrys of Europe screwed with the middle east long before we did and some of what Europe did is comming to fruit now. And when the time comes when no Irish kid is killed by a car bomb in his own country, we can talk about making terrorists.

My point wasn't "europe is better". My point was that your "peace and security" can be achived by less callous (sp?) means. If you really don't care about other countries and their citizens. Then why not isolate yourselves like China instead of "helping out" ?
A good example of how terrorists are created is Checnya and the terrorism campaign started after the invasion.
Ireland is only one of many european countries, sure, there are the ETA and others. But there are many countries that are *gasp* free of terrorism.

I am immensely proud of my british blood. I will never stop defending britain.
ok mate, defend britain now. answer me this, what is so great about britain mate? im technically brittish, however i feel no loyaty to the union jack. im scottish, and will always say i am before sayin im brittish. i would also say im european before being brittish. because, britian aint great, we fought in some wars, wars dont make nations great. people make nations great. and as to your veiws on germans and french. your a racist peice of scum. why the hell are you pinning wrong doings of the past on a new, whole nation? it was hitler mate, not germany, the nazis, not germany. but if your goin to do that, then shall i pin the wrong doings merry old england posed on my ancestors on the english today? which they sing about in "God Save the Queen"? no, i dont think i should. they are different people, face it.

US foreign policy is less than stellar...to say the least.

ok mate, defend britain now. answer me this, what is so great about britain mate? im technically brittish, however i feel no loyaty to the union jack. im scottish, and will always say i am before sayin im brittish. i would also say im european before being brittish. because, britian aint great, we fought in some wars, wars dont make nations great. people make nations great. and as to your veiws on germans and french. your a racist peice of scum. why the hell are you pinning wrong doings of the past on a new, whole nation? it was hitler mate, not germany, the nazis, not germany. but if your goin to do that, then shall i pin the wrong doings merry old england posed on my ancestors on the english today? which they sing about in "God Save the Queen"? no, i dont think i should. they are different people, face it.

You sound like one of those SNP bastards. The SNP should be shot for what they are doing...

US foreign policy is less than stellar...to say the least.
Oh after Bolton is confirmed, and Rice reveals in entirety the scope of her talent for foreign policy, I think you'll change your tune. The past five years will magically become "the good old days." See, God does make miracles happen.

trust me, i aint no SNP, but theyre nothing compared to some of those BNP arseholes. im not patriotic, im just pointing out that britain aint all its cracked up to be. however, i dont see how they are bastards, all they want is an indepentent scotland. i cant say i agree that it will work. but none the less, i dont see how the are bastards, when you got parties like the BNP, and robert kilroy silks going around.

I'd like to see Scotland actually maintain a stable country outside of the Union...

Oh, and the BNP are idiots, and Kilroy has some good ideas, but others are just crazy...

For the edification of those on NS, who look to the US as a great and evil power I am posting two national anthems: those of the US and France – I resisted the temptation of posting Germany’s.

Now at every six nations match – an international rugby tournament in which the French are involved – if the French are playing, they insist upon singing la Marseilles, the lyrics are thus:





Now, as you can plainly see, that makes the US national anthem look quite timid in comparison:



My question is, if the Europeans are such peaceable and more enlightened people, how comes they still allow their sports teams to bellow this kind of crap out when they show up around the world? Americans wouldn’t do that.

So shouldn't the french cut less throats or something..


We sing our anthem.
It makes us proud.
The french do the same.
have you ever translated the Japanese national anthem?
Its a hell of a lot worse.
The British Dropped 2 verses because they were a bit to gory for the new world.
We the americans should not dictate to other older more historical nations that they should change their anthem.
Its Moraly rong

Every nation's bullshitted and killed and fucked over others in the past. THe British did it, the Americans did it and are doing it, the French did it, the Germans did it, the Russians did it, the Japanese did it, the Khmer did it, and it goes on. What the fuck are we even arguing about anymore? Who did it worse and why they suck so much more than we (insert nation here) do? It'll all become a bunch of patriotic cyber dick measuring, with no point to it at all.

I really hope that Lacadaemon isn't as much of an ignorant jackass in real life as he shows himself to be on here.

Calling Germans fascists while defending the Americans? Hah, the irony.

Take a look at Iraq, part 1 and 2, as well as the past 100 years of Latin American history.

I have nothing wrong with bloody national anthems, it shows the authors know what it took to build a country-because no country was built by talk alone, it took the blade, or the rifle to make it. I do have a problem with the French National Anthem though, since it dosnt mention surrendering at the first sign of trouble-or waiting for the Americans to help them out. If they added those two lines in there, it would atleast be accurate

PS.
Question:Why are there trees on the streets of France?

Answer: So the Nazis could march in the Shade!

wow! But it's obsolete, right? I mean...Politicians wouldn't use this concept today, would they?

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

some of the stuff on this site is close...

http://www.newamericancentury.org/

some of the stuff on this site is close...

:eek: I had heard of the project for a new american century and assumed it was an urban legend or something. This is crazy!

I have nothing wrong with bloody national anthems, it shows the authors know what it took to build a country-because no country was built by talk alone, it took the blade, or the rifle to make it. I do have a problem with the French National Anthem though, since it dosnt mention surrendering at the first sign of trouble-or waiting for the Americans to help them out. If they added those two lines in there, it would atleast be accurate

PS.
Question:Why are there trees on the streets of France?

Answer: So the Nazis could march in the Shade!

One of these days, certian segments of America are going to get around to reading a history book and discover that America wouldn't have gained independence without France, and of course in repayment, America then stabbed France in the back.

One of these days, certian segments of France will come to the conclusion that just because an idea came from America, or people are from America, doesn't automatically make it, or them, idiotic (or whatever the current insult it).

In other words, one of these days both countries will realize that both countries have helped each other profoundly at various points in history, and that bashing each other insults the memories of those sacrifices.

Of course on THAT day pigs will be asking for landing clearence in airports around the world.

have you ever translated the Japanese national anthem? Its a hell of a lot worse.


Kimigayo? I wouldn't say it's all THAT bad.

Kimigayo wa
Chiyo ni yachiyo ni
Sazareishi no
Iwao to narite
Koke no musu made

May the reign of the Emperor
continue for a thousand, nay, eight thousand generations
and for the eternity that it takes
for small pebbles to grow into a great rock
and become covered with moss.

It's got a catchy tune if nothing else, and it's singable too. Not that I have anything against my own country's anthem (the Star Spangled Banner), but trying to hit the 'ee' in 'The land of the free' usually causes most people's voices to crack.

IN any case, note that the marseillaise extolls the virtue of killing fascists.The Marseillaise was written by a counter-revolutionary who nearly got his head chopped off during the Reign of Terror. He was a royalist, by the way. The "fascists" he refers to are the French Revolutionaries, who got really bloody and decapitated practically everyone.

I visited New American Century. I am scared, mommy hold me!!

How can they say that the era of Reagan was bright, the national debt increased more rapidly during the Reagan period than ever. Yeah, a big national debt is good for the future. Its the national debt that will make America fall over, sorry to say that but it is true. The interest alone is around $400 billion a year. Not to mention the fact that it constantly grows...


Manifest Destiny is probably what inspired Hitler: "Hey Germans! We have divine right to rule from the Atlantic to the Pacific!"

Bigoted nationalism is sick. In the perfect world there is no nationalism, at least not irrational nationalism.

If Putin felt that Russia would be better off without a world, should he nuke the world to pieces? That's the Saddam way.

:eek: I had heard of the project for a new american century and assumed it was an urban legend or something. This is crazy!

PNAC is as close to pure evil as is humanly possible.

Its members - including such choice people as Wolfowitz, Perle, and others in the administration and near to it - called for invading Iraq before Desert Storm even concluded. Wisely, Secretary Of Defense Dick Cheney counselled President George H. W. Bush that it would be a very bad idea. PNAC spent the entire decade arguing why the US should invade Iraq, overthrow Hussein, etc.

On Edit: Rhetorical turn of phrase. The National Socialists were pure evil. PNAC just tends to mimic their policies, so there is a little space between them and the end of the continuum.

PNAC is as close to pure evil as is humanly possible.

Its members - including such choice people as Wolfowitz, Perle, and others in the administration and near to it - called for invading Iraq before Desert Storm even concluded. Wisely, Secretary Of Defense Dick Cheney counselled President George H. W. Bush that it would be a very bad idea. PNAC spent the entire decade arguing why the US should invade Iraq, overthrow Hussein, etc.
Exactly. I wish people who claim US foreign policy is altruistic would read PNAC. It's all about imperialism! and militaristic dominance. Scary stuff.

PNAC is as close to pure evil as is humanly possible.

Its members - including such choice people as Wolfowitz, Perle, and others in the administration and near to it - called for invading Iraq before Desert Storm even concluded. Wisely, Secretary Of Defense Dick Cheney counselled President George H. W. Bush that it would be a very bad idea. PNAC spent the entire decade arguing why the US should invade Iraq, overthrow Hussein, etc.

On Edit: Rhetorical turn of phrase. The National Socialists were pure evil. PNAC just tends to mimic their policies, so there is a little space between them and the end of the continuum.

I had *no* idea about this... It's like a hyperviolent version of the freemasons or something. It's amazing they would put something like this on the web for the whole world to see. Even more so with all those powerful members. Are you sure this isn't a hoax?

I had *no* idea about this... It's like a hyperviolent version of the freemasons or something. It's amazing they would put something like this on the web for the whole world to see. Even more so with all those powerful members. Are you sure this isn't a hoax?

The Freemasons are benevolent. :) That alone is a big difference.

PNAC: apparently it's only been around since 1997, I thought it was earlier. Its members, though, had been pushing much of what it puts forth since, well, the Reagan years, if not earlier. Many of those identified with it today have been around in Washington since Nixon's administration.

Anyway, whether it were a hoax or not, American foreign policy is now guided by the stated policy objectives of the PNAC.

I really hope that Lacadaemon isn't as much of an ignorant jackass in real life as he shows himself to be on here.

Calling Germans fascists while defending the Americans? Hah, the irony.

Take a look at Iraq, part 1 and 2, as well as the past 100 years of Latin American history.

We Americans aren't Fascists. Just pro-military.

And lets look at Iraqs wonderful history... early 1900's Iraq is divided up between *ghasp!* France and England thus sharing the fate of nations such as Israle, Syria, Arabia... Causing most of the problems there.

Moral: Europe has caused more problems in the Middle East then the U.S. has.

Now for Latin America... Do you remeber a man called Cortez? Darn, those Spanish, French, and English are at it again... When will they learn?

And just to point this out, the Nazis were Scocialists... Geuss what most nations the don't support the U.S. are?

The Freemasons are benevolent. :) That alone is a big difference.

PNAC: apparently it's only been around since 1997, I thought it was earlier. Its members, though, had been pushing much of what it puts forth since, well, the Reagan years, if not earlier. Many of those identified with it today have been around in Washington since Nixon's administration.

Anyway, whether it were a hoax or not, American foreign policy is now guided by the stated policy objectives of the PNAC.

:) Yes, that's why I said it was a violent version.

Reading on that site are scary, and it's even scarier to see that their plan is actually being used. I guess things won't get better for a while.
Maybe I should write to snopes.com and ask them about that site... It does seem legit though.

And just to point this out, the Nazis were Scocialists... Geuss what most nations the don't support the U.S. are?

That part hurts my brain.

The National Socialists were not socialists, regardless of the fact that they used the word "socialist" (National Socialist German Workers Party is the full English title).

The Nazis hated and loathed the Communism of Russia, and readily imprisoned and executed socialists. No, the Nazis were no more socialists than any other fascists were or are.

The US is, at most, only slightly less socialistic than the UK. Social Security, public education programs, the whole gamut of "social" programs - that's socialism in action.

:) Yes, that's why I said it was a violent version.

Reading on that site are scary, and it's even scarier to see that their plan is actually being used. I guess things won't get better for a while.
Maybe I should write to snopes.com and ask them about that site... It does seem legit though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC - A decent source (for just about anything, actually, I love Wikipedia).

Snopes is great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC - A decent source (for just about anything, actually, I love Wikipedia).

Snopes is great.

Thanks for the link, this verifies it in my eyes. I'm still amazed. This just makes Bush and his administration bigger assholes in my view. But surely there must be some resistance to these plans in the US? In the government? Anywhere?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PNAC - A decent source (for just about anything, actually, I love Wikipedia).

Snopes is great.
Wikipedia is an open source project. This means that any fool with any ax to grind can post anything any time. Hardly what I would call "a decent source."

Wikipedia is an open source project. This means that any fool with any ax to grind can post anything any time. Hardly what I would call "a decent source."

So you think the PNAC doesn't exist? I've been looking at articles from all kinds of since this link was posted, and there is no longer a question if it exists. It does.

So you think the PNAC doesn't exist?
Where, pray tell, did I ever say that? It would be really constructive if you would refrain from placing words in my mouth.

Here's the actual site for the PNAC: http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Where, pray tell, did I ever say that? It would be really constructive if you would refrain from placing words in my mouth.

Here's the actual site for the PNAC: http://www.newamericancentury.org/

You didn't and that's why I asked.
I apologize, I didn't mean to put words in your mouth. I thought you were doubting the info the source provided. But nevermind...

That link has allready been posted, it's what sparked the discussion.

Wikipedia is an open source project. This means that any fool with any ax to grind can post anything any time. Hardly what I would call "a decent source."

But it also means that that post can be undone by someone who doesn't have an ax to grind. Are you volunteering, Eutrusca? :)

Wikipedia is an open source project. This means that any fool with any ax to grind can post anything any time. Hardly what I would call "a decent source."

That - or rather, as is pointed out a bit further down, because any fool without an axe to grind can correct it - is what makes open source so robust. It's a very common (mis)understanding and complaint that because something "open source" isn't proprietarily professional, it's obviously flawed. Fortunately, the history of "open source" anything disproves that admirably. :)

I use Firefox. Nuff said.

I found on Wikipedia, once, in an article on tripartite mottos, that "Life, Liberty, Property" was J. S. Mill. The elder Mill was born in 1773, which would make it very difficult indeed for him to have written the words that became the centerpiece of the Declaration Of Independence. I created an account, corrected the name to John Locke, and voila, just a little bit more accuracy in the world.

Sit down, sometime, and read through Wikipedia. Load up a random entry, or select one on the main page, and read, and randomly select further entries to read. No, it's not the Encyclopedia Brittanica - it's better. And it's painfully accurate - just look at the policies and the Talk pages that provide for its evolution and growth.

If you do so, and you do find something at all erroneous - let me know. I can fix it - or you can fix it. It's not perfect. It just happens to be a wonderfully accurate and informative source on almost anything.

Wikipedia is an open source project. This means that any fool with any ax to grind can post anything any time. Hardly what I would call "a decent source."
It's exactly because Wikipedia is open source, that it IS an excellent source. Every idiot with an ax to grind (i.e. you) can put stuff in there and it will disappear just as quickly as someone with more intellect corrects it. They discuss about all sorts of articles at length until they come to a conclusion - mainly based on material found elsewhere on the web such as news stories.

Germans are bad people. They are behaving now exactly the way my grandfather warned me about. Denouncing everyone for being millitaristic, while building up their own forces claiming it is thier right.
He said they would do this.
I have you to know that your grandfather was a bloody wanker with no future insight greater than the average goldfish. Too bad that you inherited his racist viewpoints, condamnating a whole nation of people, no matter of which tribe the originated from or even if they naturalized later within Germany. My coloured friends who were born in Germany and are of german nationality would really like to discuss your viewpoint on them being naturally evil and inherited the sins of the nazis. There is no nation or race of evil, get it? If you really are moronic enough to believe that, be very afraid of all the german descendants in the US. Or the Austrians, they are just Germans in disguise. And the Brits, damn evil saxons that they are. Did you know that the scandic and northern german tribes are actually very much related? Fear the danish and swedish as well! Please, foster your unfounded paranoia for yourself, but dont expect me to sit by and let you insult most of those i love. I have no pride in my nation, only in my own achievements, and am vary of people who are nationalistic, but this was too much.

I have you to know that your grandfather was a bloody wanker with no future insight greater than the average goldfish. Too bad that you inherited his racist viewpoints, condamnating a whole nation of people, no matter of which tribe the originated from or even if they naturalized later within Germany. My coloured friends who were born in Germany and are of german nationality would really like to discuss your viewpoint on them being naturally evil and inherited the sins of the nazis. There is no nation or race of evil, get it? If you really are moronic enough to believe that, be very afraid of all the german descendants in the US. Or the Austrians, they are just Germans in disguise. And the Brits, damn evil saxons that they are. Did you know that the scandic and northern german tribes are actually very much related? Fear the danish and swedish as well! Please, foster your unfounded paranoia for yourself, but dont expect me to sit by and let you insult most of those i love. I have no pride in my nation, only in my own achievements, and am vary of people who are nationalistic, but this was too much.

The afro-german pacifist nazis must be the yanks worst nightmare :D

That part hurts my brain.

The National Socialists were not socialists, regardless of the fact that they used the word "socialist" (National Socialist German Workers Party is the full English title).

The Nazis hated and loathed the Communism of Russia, and readily imprisoned and executed socialists. No, the Nazis were no more socialists than any other fascists were or are.

The US is, at most, only slightly less socialistic than the UK. Social Security, public education programs, the whole gamut of "social" programs - that's socialism in action.

But were still not as bad as the French and English and Germans...

Also, look what Scocialism/Communism got us Rooskiis... *I am Russian decent*

In my opinion Facisim, Scocialism, Communisim, and Anarchism are the 4 Government types that just flat-out don't work. At least we can agree on that.

But were still not as bad as the French and English and Germans...

Also, look what Scocialism/Communism got us Rooskiis... *I am Russian decent*

In my opinion Facisim, Scocialism, Communisim, and Anarchism are the 4 Government types that just flat-out don't work. At least we can agree on that.

Pardon? What's "as bad as"?

The USSR was an authoritarian, totalitarian, state. That is, it was nothing but a dictatorship, like any other dictatorship (I use "dictatorship" here in the sense of any undemocratic political system) - a system little different than that under the Tsars, with a different name and a different set of excuses for its existence. The Bolsheviks simply coopted economic theory to enrich the government, just as monarchs, oligarchs, tyrants, past and present coopt economic theory (capitalist, communist, it's all the same) as an excuse to enrich themselves and their governments.

The most important part of any government is the degree to which it recognizes individual freedom - everything else follows, though not necessarily without a fight.

Socialism is partially a political theory - it's partially economic. Communism is wholly economic (although it's applied politically - at least, that is my take on it). Fascism is a form of tyrrany - specifically, government through violence. Anarchy is not a government type - it is the complete lack thereof.

Unfortunately, tyrannies (fascist or otherwise) do work. Throughout history, republics have been in the minority, while monarchies, oligarchies, and empires have ruled the roost. When the Greek poleis and the Roman Republic fell, Europe (and the world) saw few Republics until the 1600s, when such nation-states as the UK, the Netherlands and Venice possessed stable, functional, republics (monarchial, as in the UK, or pure, as in the latter two), but it was only with the creation of an independent republic in the New World that republics began to become the government of choice - first in the USA, then France (as short lived as the First Republic was), and then throughout the New and Old Worlds alike.

But were still not as bad as the French and English and Germans...

Also, look what Scocialism/Communism got us Rooskiis... *I am Russian decent*

In my opinion Facisim, Scocialism, Communisim, and Anarchism are the 4 Government types that just flat-out don't work. At least we can agree on that.

No, we can't agree on that.
Socialism is very VERY different from communism. Real Socialism works fine. Unless...Of course, you can convince me Scandinavia is falling apart :rolleyes: The Russian immigrants I've met seem to like it here fine.

I generally define Dictatorship/Fascism as a government headed by one unelected individual, like the Roman idea of having one supreme leader in times of crisis.

It can work good (like in my NS nation where everybody is happy), and bad like almost every modern dictatorship (Saddam, Fidel, and Tito, to name a few).

Germans are definitely NOT facists. The majority are raving liberals (which is fine to me). Bavarians are the exception, where most Bavarians are more patrioatic and militaristic than others (like the new pope, who also happens to be Bavarian. I love Bavaria!), but still do not believe in facist ideals. As for Hitler: He's a AUSTRIAN. Not a German.

France is a possibility. The US definitely is not, as the population is always "concerned" about everything the government does and would never support a dictator who they can't vote out of office (especially the Democrats).

I generally define Dictatorship/Fascism as a government headed by one unelected individual, like the Roman idea of having one supreme leader in times of crisis.

It can work good (like in my NS nation where everybody is happy), and bad like almost every modern dictatorship (Saddam, Fidel, and Tito, to name a few).

Germans are definitely NOT facists. The majority are raving liberals (which is fine to me). Bavarians are the exception, where most Bavarians are more patrioatic and militaristic than others (like the new pope, who also happens to be Bavarian. I love Bavaria!), but still do not believe in facist ideals. As for Hitler: He's a AUSTRIAN. Not a German.

France is a possibility. The US definitely is not, as the population is always "concerned" about everything the government does and would never support a dictator who they can't vote out of office (especially the Democrats).

France isn't fascist... :rolleyes:

We Americans aren't Fascists. Just pro-military.

And lets look at Iraqs wonderful history... early 1900's Iraq is divided up between *ghasp!* France and England thus sharing the fate of nations such as Israle, Syria, Arabia... Causing most of the problems there.

Moral: Europe has caused more problems in the Middle East then the U.S. has.

Now for Latin America... Do you remeber a man called Cortez? Darn, those Spanish, French, and English are at it again... When will they learn?

And just to point this out, the Nazis were Scocialists... Geuss what most nations the don't support the U.S. are?

1) I wasn't calling Americans fascists.

2) Ok, great. Firstly, I was talking about Iraq specifically, and I never said anything about Europeans. Since the first Gulf War the US has had Iraq under strict economic sanctions, which have killed hundreds of thousands of people due to starvation. Not to mention all of the Iraqi's dead due to bombings and the war.

3) Cortez was responsible for the downfall of the Aztec empire, I don't see how you can compare him to the US at all. The US has been responsible (directly or indirectly) for the killings of hundreds of thousands of people in Latin America.

The US government has been friendly with these kind of people:

Pinochet, Batista, Porfirio Diaz, Noriega, etc.

Here's a good source: http://www.zompist.com/latam.html

4) Nazi's = socialists?!! Are you serious??

Glenham: Cool that works, although what government type would you recomend to the rest of us?

General of general: Ok how come it was said earlyier by someone that Communists and Scocialist are the same thing then? *Just to get that out of the way and fix questions that may have arrisen* And as for Scandinavia, lets look at Denmark: In Denmark, the Government PAYS artists to paint and even if the artists make crapy paintings, they are still paid. So if I decided I don't want to work anymore, I can just become a painter and sell crapy painting to the government and make a good liveing.

And last time I looked, that can lead to economic breakdown.

Zarbia: Ahh, so you are looking at one point in history while trying to push the rest under the carpet. This is a MILD form of cencorship.

And what diffrence is it that someone was killed 100 seconds ago, or 100 years ago? Once again, you pushed history under the rug in a MILD form of cencorship.

And apperantly, no Nazi's don't=scocialists.

Glenham: Cool that works, although what government type would you recomend to the rest of us?

General of general: Ok how come it was said earlyier by someone that Communists and Scocialist are the same thing then? *Just to get that out of the way and fix questions that may have arrisen* And as for Scandinavia, lets look at Denmark: In Denmark, the Government PAYS artists to paint and even if the artists make crapy paintings, they are still paid. So if I decided I don't want to work anymore, I can just become a painter and sell crapy painting to the government and make a good liveing.

And last time I looked, that can lead to economic breakdown.

Zarbia: Ahh, so you are looking at one point in history while trying to push the rest under the carpet. This is a MILD form of cencorship.

And what diffrence is it that someone was killed 100 seconds ago, or 100 years ago? Once again, you pushed history under the rug in a MILD form of cencorship.

And apperantly, no Nazi's don't=scocialists.


No, Communism and Socialism aren't the same thing.

Yes, let's have a look at Denmark.
What you've just said is bullshit. We have the same system here. This is how it works: The government supports art, but only a limited number of people get money. First of all you have to be qualified, this means that you must have worked full time as an artist for a certain number of years, if you don't have any education in fine-art, then the number of years you must have worked independantly goes up. Even then, there is a process where a committee looks at the applications and decides if the artist will be supported or not (the number of artists supported is very low, less than 1% of artists get this kind of support). You can't make a *good* living off the support of the government either, since it isn't a whole lot of money. And the government doesn't purchase all the artwork created either.
So, go ahead, try and move to denmark and sell your crappy paintings, you'll starve.
The Americans have a similar support system. In there every public institution must spend 1% of it's budget on purchasing artwork by contemporary artists. I don't really see anything wrong with either system.

Wouldn't wanna move there any way.

Now, I don't live in Scandinavia so what I said was what I knew. So what I said was in a sence, true.

HOWEVER, if you live over there, what right do you have to have ANY say on our forign policy, government type, and leaders?

You seemed fairly PO'd when I whent after Denmark, and Scocialism. So now you must know how we feel when you go after us.

Not a good feeling is it when other people say bad things about you is it?

Wouldn't wanna move there any way.

Now, I don't live in Scandinavia so what I said was what I knew. So what I said was in a sence, true.

HOWEVER, if you live over there, what right do you have to have ANY say on our forign policy, government type, and leaders?

You seemed fairly PO'd when I whent after Denmark, and Scocialism. So now you must know how we feel when you go after us.

Not a good feeling is it when other people say bad things about you is it?

So, making up stuff makes it true?
I didn't get PO'd...I just explained how what you said was wrong.
Perhaps you noticed that I also explained how the system of artists support works in the USA too, which I'm pretty sure you didn't know.

And you're right, I don't have any say on the US foreign policy, government type and leaders and I don't think I should have. But I do have an opinion. That's what these forums are about, aren't they? Don't most threads here start with the words "What do you think about..." ?
Besides, it's not as if I, or my government are actively interfering in any way with the USA (which is more than can be said about you guys).

So, let's sum up your post: "You're not allowed to have an opinion because you're not an American". :rolleyes:

*bump*

Zarbia: Ahh, so you are looking at one point in history while trying to push the rest under the carpet. This is a MILD form of cencorship.

And what diffrence is it that someone was killed 100 seconds ago, or 100 years ago? Once again, you pushed history under the rug in a MILD form of cencorship.

No.

HOWEVER, if you live over there, what right do you have to have ANY say on our forign policy, government type, and leaders?

Every right.

*Here comes a rant*
And alow me to sum up you'r post.

"You said something that was wrong."

This is all well and good and I recognise my error. HOWEVER, although you may not feel the need to try to change our policys, many other Europeans DO feel the need to try and change us.

My point ladies and Gentlemen: Europeans say that Americans are fat, lazy, stupid, un-sophisticated bullies. Americans think Europeans are snooby, selfish, envious, ethnocentric, rude, overbearing parents.

My point here is that both sides are cought in this stupid game of name calling. Both sides have their problems but bother sides are too busy trying to make the other look bad, that they are forgetting one important thing.

We are you, and you are us. To Europeans: Geuss what! The world doesn't revolve around Europe anymore. Were not you'r lap dogs any more, live with it.
To Americans: They are not as bad as we think they are, they do have their advantegs. And they are our allys. Live with it.

To Liberals: Bush won, weather you like it or not. Live with it. :D

So basicly, Europe worrys about Europe, America worrys about America, and the Liberals can worry about whatever they hell it is they worry about. :D

*Ok, now back to the senceless name calling.*

I don't think there are any Fascists nations left in the world... I know there are dictatorships, and totalatarian *sp* states but I don't think any Fascists states still exist...

*Here comes a rant*
And alow me to sum up you'r post.

"You said something that was wrong."

This is all well and good and I recognise my error. HOWEVER, although you may not feel the need to try to change our policys, many other Europeans DO feel the need to try and change us.

My point ladies and Gentlemen: Europeans say that Americans are fat, lazy, stupid, un-sophisticated bullies. Americans think Europeans are snooby, selfish, envious, ethnocentric, rude, overbearing parents.

My point here is that both sides are cought in this stupid game of name calling. Both sides have their problems but bother sides are too busy trying to make the other look bad, that they are forgetting one important thing.

We are you, and you are us. To Europeans: Geuss what! The world doesn't revolve around Europe anymore. Were not you'r lap dogs any more, live with it.
To Americans: They are not as bad as we think they are, they do have their advantegs. And they are our allys. Live with it.

To Liberals: Bush won, weather you like it or not. Live with it. :D

So basicly, Europe worrys about Europe, America worrys about America, and the Liberals can worry about whatever they hell it is they worry about. :D

*Ok, now back to the senceless name calling.*

I don't think there are any Fascists nations left in the world... I know there are dictatorships, and totalatarian *sp* states but I don't think any Fascists states still exist...

You complain that people have are against some of the things the USA does. Everyone has an opinion. And you're right that America should worry about America and vice versa. But the flaw in your arguement is that America is not just "caring about America"... The issue I think is an international one are the wars. They concern more people than just Americans. If you are frustrated that people have an opinion of those...Well, too bad.
BTW I'm not used to the world "revolving around me". My country is tiny and we don't even have an army. But I live in this world with you, and my opinion doesn't count any less than yours.

The USSR's evil has always been overestimated in the West, it was a propaganda war you know. In 1980 1 out of 5 doctors(in the world that is) were Russians. They had the world's best eye-physicians! They also instituted government healthcare and many benefits. The downsides where few democratic freedoms and a weak civil sector of the economy(the defence part was outstanding). But enough of that, the SSSR has perished.

I am Scandinavian(Swedish to be exact). Our system has worked very well until recent years. People have been struck by an urge to stop working and live off of welfare. I hope the government actions will solve this problem. I am happy not to worry about paying for college/university and of course, healthcare. Granted, our taxes are around 55% of GDP. BUT, that isn't that bad. The US is around 31% and if you compare the benefits given by the government I say it's worth it. That is just me, my own precious opinion. Some might think otherwise, I understand that(if that was not the case it would be the same all over the world, right?).

I think that it is ridiculus how this blame game is going. Europeans and Americans should be able to live in peace. After we have much in common(any idea why the language Americans talk is called English). If Europeans and Americans cannot stand each other, how can you expect the Chinese to understand any of us?

The PNAC is a group of American reactionaries who are just dreaming of Pax Americana and an American World State, like Hitler dreamed of a German super empire. Just subtract the hatred and extermination of the Jews(and replace with communists!), the uniforms and banners and replace German with English and the NSDAP become PNAC!

They are the kind of Americans that make people think Americans are a bunch of imperialist conservatives.

But it also means that that post can be undone by someone who doesn't have an ax to grind. Are you volunteering, Eutrusca? :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:F._Lee_Horn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:F._Lee_Horn

Nice. Unfortunately, I don't have time to read your contributions tonight (stupid writing papers) but I likely will have time Thursday and Friday nights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:F._Lee_Horn

It's a good job I like you, otherwise that would get edited.

I admire your bravery in telling us about it however.

Glenham: Cool that works, although what government type would you recomend to the rest of us?

Socially minded liberal representative democracy? The general kind most developed nations already have. Not a one of them may be ideal, but then no government is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:F._Lee_Horn

Welcome! It seems you've now already contributed more than I have, but I'll hope to follow your lead.

Impressive, incidentally (I'd never read of deep ecology before).