NationStates Jolt Archive

i've noticed that most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, theyjust don't want to believe. one guy i talked to spent forever stressing about why he couldn't believe until i finally got him to admit that he just didn't wanna believe, cuz he didn't wanna stop having sex. so this is for people who actually wanna believe, but have questions. if u just don't wanna believe, or just wanna make my life miserable, please don't. God bless.

I would say that if I was given a reason to believe I would believe. I have nothing against personal religion, I just have never been too big on doing what a book tells me to do, and that seems to be the only evidence provided for Christianity.

First of all, of what faith are we talking about here?
Can I come in and ask about Odin, Vishnu, Buddha or only Jesus?
Because believing in a greater power is not the province of only one faith...

Why would anyone have a problem with faith or lack of it? Religion, as you well point out, is a matter of choice. You believe what you want to believe in. If you think it's pointless to believe in a god, they you don't believe in a god. If you think Krshna is the way, then you believe in those teachings.

Some people may be too lazy to question why they believe, but that's still a choice.

i've noticed that most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, theyjust don't want to believe. one guy i talked to spent forever stressing about why he couldn't believe until i finally got him to admit that he just didn't wanna believe, cuz he didn't wanna stop having sex.

You appear to have been talking to an idiot.

so this is for people who actually wanna believe, but have questions.

I only have one question, and it's the only question that matters.

Do you have any legitimate reason I should believe?

ok, that's very reasonable...but it seems as thought somebody might have mixed u up. i know u didn't say this, but it sounds like u think u have to believe and do as the Bible tells u before u can be forgiven....the only advice on this i can offer, is u don't. u ask for forgiveness, believe u can be forgiven, and u will be. don't worry about doing wut's right yet, dont'w orry about "rules" or anything, just ask for forgiveness, and God will make you clean. i find that generally after u've seen God's tremendous love, or power, or both, a few times, most people start to do wut God wants simply because they love Him.

as for a reason to believe...i can think of a couple things, but they're mostly my personal experiences, and i doubt if that will help...ok. all things that come into being have a cause, this has been proven. the universe came into being, this has also been proven. therefore the universe must have a cause, and that cause must be uncaused, meaning it always was, is, and shall be.

You appear to have been talking to an idiot.
Agreed, apparently, you can have sex and have faith too! *gasp*

First of all, of what faith are we talking about here?
Can I come in and ask about Odin, Vishnu, Buddha or only Jesus?
Because believing in a greater power is not the province of only one faith...
that's very good point. i would include all faiths, but for two reasons. firstly, i know almost nothing about them, i know a little of what they believe, but hardly any supporting evidence or truths i can agree with. secondly, i've been convinced by evidence and personal experience that Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and so i'd rather not mislead people from what i see to be divine truth.

I don't actually believe that I need to be forgiven for anything......

snip

Please spell out "you" and "what" as I do not associate "u" and "wut" with any meaning so I have a hard time reading your posts.

You appear to have been talking to an idiot.



I only have one question, and it's the only question that matters.

Do you have any legitimate reason I should believe?
yes, i have several. but if ur asking, u don't want to believe. i could say u should believe so that u might be saved, but u won't believe that untill u believe. i could tell u that respected scientists say faith makes alot more sense than atheism, and is far better supported by evidence, but most people don't accept that. there are many things i could say.

that's very good point. i would include all faiths, but for two reasons. firstly, i know almost nothing about them, i know a little of what they believe, but hardly any supporting evidence or truths i can agree with. secondly, i've been convinced by evidence and personal experience that Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and so i'd rather not mislead people from what i see to be divine truth.
Yeah, but then what denomination?

Because Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses don't have the same views, you know.

as for a reason to believe...i can think of a couple things, but they're mostly my personal experiences, and i doubt if that will help...ok. all things that come into being have a cause, this has been proven. the universe came into being, this has also been proven. therefore the universe must have a cause, and that cause must be uncaused, meaning it always was, is, and shall be.

What exactly are you saying here? The universe is God, or that God made the universe?

Agreed, apparently, you can have sex and have faith too! *gasp*
ya, you can, but i must add that anyone who truelly believes will want to stop having sex. if u don't truelly believe, then u may as well not believe at all.

I don't actually believe that I need to be forgiven for anything......
He. I don't even believe that there's a god that judges, much less forgives. Or an afterlife to live if you're forgiven.

What exactly are you saying here? The universe is God, or that God made the universe?
God made the universe. He could "be" the universe as well, in a sense, but i don't really know, and i think it's irrelevant

i could tell u that respected scientists say faith makes alot more sense than atheism, and is far better supported by evidence, but most people don't accept that.

Why would scientists, SCIENTISTS of all people, prove that faith makes more sense than atheism. And, in what way does it "make more sense"? does it make you feel better about yourself or what? That statement of yours makes no sense. "faith is better supported by evidence" WHAT EVIDENCE? "faith makes alot more sense than atheism" What kind of sense does it make?

i've noticed that most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, theyjust don't want to believe. one guy i talked to spent forever stressing about why he couldn't believe until i finally got him to admit that he just didn't wanna believe, cuz he didn't wanna stop having sex. so this is for people who actually wanna believe, but have questions. if u just don't wanna believe, or just wanna make my life miserable, please don't. God bless.

I don't believe mainly because I hate many of the principles of religions, in particular Christianity.

He. I don't even believe that there's a god that judges, much less forgives. Or an afterlife to live if you're forgiven.

Me too. I believe in living this life to the fullest while we're still here. ;)
That is easily combined with living life well according to my moral code of not harming others.

Who needs religion to tell them what to do?

Yeah, but then what denomination?

Because Catholics, Protestants, Mormons, Jehova's Witnesses don't have the same views, you know.
that's true, but the things they differ on aren't really going to affect whether or not they get to heaven. personally, i think many things about the catholic church are screwed up, mostly cuz they don't make sense and have no basis in scripture. mormons and jehova's witnesses are essentially the same thing, and they're a cult. their main distinguishing belief is that u must earn your way into heaven, but the Bible says that's impossible, and that grace is a gift, not a reward. i don't like to call myself protestant, but their hasn't been anything taught by them yet (that i know about) that conflicts with scripture, so i guess i am.

yes, i have several. but if ur asking, u don't want to believe. i could say u should believe so that u might be saved, but u won't believe that untill u believe. i could tell u that respected scientists say faith makes alot more sense than atheism, and is far better supported by evidence, but most people don't accept that. there are many things i could say.

Look, first of all by the mere definition of faith, I deduce that faith is unreasonable, irrational, and above all, unscientific. Your "respectable" scientists must be some creationist nuts.

Opinions from scientists are just that, opinions. They are in no better position to form any sort of opinion on any religious belief than everybody else.

Religion is essentially only good moral teachings. Why do we need the whole God part? We only need to believe in doing the right thing. We don't need a diety to tell us, or for us to believe in any diety, as long as we live a good life. Not a good life in the service of any lord, but just a good life.

Why would scientists, SCIENTISTS of all people, prove that faith makes more sense than atheism. And, in what way does it "make more sense"? does it make you feel better about yourself or what? That statement of yours makes no sense. "faith is better supported by evidence" WHAT EVIDENCE? "faith makes alot more sense than atheism" What kind of sense does it make?
i'm sorry. scientists would say that because they have reason too. they will have checked it out and declared it the logical conclusion, according to scientific theory. i apologize i don't have the evidence on me, but this is straying from wanting to believe to making excuses not to again

Religion is essentially only good moral teachings. Why do we need the whole God part? We only need to believe in doing the right thing. We don't need a diety to tell us, or for us to believe in any diety, as long as we live a good life. Not a good life in the service of any lord, but just a good life.
you're missing the point entirely. leading a good life is not the point, although it's certainly a righteous thing to do, and something righteous men and women will attempt to do. but it does not make you righteous. we believe in God because He loves us and wants us to live forever with Him in heaven, and THAT is the point.

But how can faith make more sense? If you love this argument so much, then at least tell me what these idiots (I mean scientists) found at least. Only saying it makes more sense is an empty argument.

that's true, but the things they differ on aren't really going to affect whether or not they get to heaven. personally, i think many things about the catholic church are screwed up, mostly cuz they don't make sense and have no basis in scripture. mormons and jehova's witnesses are essentially the same thing, and they're a cult. their main distinguishing belief is that u must earn your way into heaven, but the Bible says that's impossible, and that grace is a gift, not a reward. i don't like to call myself protestant, but their hasn't been anything taught by them yet (that i know about) that conflicts with scripture, so i guess i am.
Fine then, On which part of the dogma do you base the opinion that women shouldn't be ordained?

Which part of the Catholic faith do you find screwed up?

Look, first of all by the mere definition of faith, I deduce that faith is unreasonable, irrational, and above all, unscientific. Your "respectable" scientists must be some creationist nuts.

Opinions from scientists are just that, opinions. They are in no better position to form any sort of opinion on any religious belief than everybody else.
ture, faith is described by the Bible as "trusing what we cannot see", but that doesn't make it scientific. it's scientific because there is evidence supporting what we believe. the same way evolution is scientific because there is supporting evidence. much of darwin's theory requires a certain degree of faith, admittedly more than faith in the Bible.

Sure god wants us to live with him, but will he take all the idiots and murderers off the street and bring them next to him? No, I think that if God and heaven exist, God will take those who led a good life. Maybe, even if they didn't believe in him.

that's very good point. i would include all faiths, but for two reasons. firstly, i know almost nothing about them, i know a little of what they believe, but hardly any supporting evidence or truths i can agree with. secondly, i've been convinced by evidence and personal experience that Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and so i'd rather not mislead people from what i see to be divine truth.

If you do not know what the other faiths teach, how can you know that your religion is the right one for you. Surely you must have to know to make a serious decision.

you're missing the point entirely. leading a good life is not the point, although it's certainly a righteous thing to do, and something righteous men and women will attempt to do. but it does not make you righteous. we believe in God because He loves us and wants us to live forever with Him in heaven, and THAT is the point.
I think you are missing the point. Jesus mentionned that someone who has lead a good life will be granted heaven even if he never heard of him.

Sure god wants us to live with him, but will he take all the idiots and murderers off the street and bring them next to him? No, I think that if God and heaven exist, God will take those who led a good life. Maybe, even if they didn't believe in him.
you can believe that if you want. but the God I believe in will take those who ask to be taken. if a murderer asks forgiveness, in God's eyes he ceases to be a murderer. it's not God picking and chossing who can come, but rather God helping those who want to come to do so.

much of darwin's theory requires a certain degree of faith, admittedly more than faith in the Bible.


That statement is so unbelievably wrong. Something with concrete evidence from serious and unbiased scientists does not require as much faith to belive in than the unfounded claims of a book.

Question: Why does disease exist?

He. I don't even believe that there's a god that judges, much less forgives. Or an afterlife to live if you're forgiven.
then why are you here? this is for people who want to believe.

you can believe that if you want. but the God I believe in will take those who ask to be taken. if a murderer asks forgiveness, in God's eyes he ceases to be a murderer. it's not God picking and chossing who can come, but rather God helping those who want to come to do so.

So I can theoretically rape, burn, murder, and destroy all my life, and right before they inject me with the needle I can say "oh please forgive me god" and all will be fine?! What kind of reasoning is that? Because, your statement says that if I do all that (theoretically), and beg right before I die, that God will take me into heaven, no questions asked. Well then, heaven should be filled with cutthroats and killers. Maybe when you get there you can say "hi" to John Wilkes Booth for me.

as for a reason to believe...i can think of a couple things, but they're mostly my personal experiences, and i doubt if that will help...ok. all things that come into being have a cause, this has been proven.

No, it hasn't. What gave you that idea?

the universe came into being, this has also been proven.

No, actually that hasn't been proven either.

therefore the universe must have a cause, and that cause must be uncaused, meaning it always was, is, and shall be.

Even if we ignore the two previous misperception you appear to be operating under, how did this become a reason for believing in the existence of God rather than the existence of some completely impersonal natural phenomena? Like... an eternal quantum vacuum? How exactly did we come to the point where we are assigning volition and intelligence to this "cause"? At first glance it appears you just tacked it on because you want it to be there, not because you have any reason for concluding it actually is there.

Question: Why does disease exist?
you mean why does God allow bad things to happen? partly, because it helps people to decide to seek Him, when they realize they need Him. partly because many deserve it, although it is not a punishment. but the main reason, i believe, is that if there were to be no disease, no war, no famine, no crime, no abuse, if there was only good, then good would cease to be good, because there would be no bad to compare it to. if your parents give u as much money as u want whenever you want it, it quickly ceases to be seen as a kind thing for them to do. instead, you become angry when they don't. same general idea here. hope that helps.

you're missing the point entirely. leading a good life is not the point, although it's certainly a righteous thing to do, and something righteous men and women will attempt to do. but it does not make you righteous. we believe in God because He loves us and wants us to live forever with Him in heaven, and THAT is the point.
I think the whole trouble a lot of people have with religion is exactly what you just said. You said, "and that is the point.", when if fact you made no point. one thing religion has never attempted or never succeded is to explain why "life matters". Christians also just say that we go to heaven and that's all there is to it. They don't ask (and don't want to ask) why humans are in existance in the first place. All they do is call it "God's plan" and just dismiss the issue completely.

As long as religions continue to do this, there's no real reason to believe in anything.

then why are you here? this is for people who want to believe.
No, you want them to believe what you believe in. I'm just saying that they can believe whatever they want to believe and that's ok too. It's all a matter of choice.

So, those who want to believe there's a God and that it's just like what the Bible says, ask Alexandria.

Those who want to believe that there's no God ask me.

That statement is so unbelievably wrong. Something with concrete evidence from serious and unbiased scientists does not require as much faith to belive in than the unfounded claims of a book.
i'm sorry, what concrete evidence? the Bible's claims are continually supported by archeology, mainly, but many other fields of study as well. not only are you missing much in the way of fossils and ways to do things to support evolution, but there are a couple species, a beetle in particular, that could not exist if darwinian theory was true.

you mean why does God allow bad things to happen? partly, because it helps people to decide to seek Him, when they realize they need Him. partly because many deserve it, although it is not a punishment. but the main reason, i believe, is that if there were to be no disease, no war, no famine, no crime, no abuse, if there was only good, then good would cease to be good, because there would be no bad to compare it to. if your parents give u as much money as u want whenever you want it, it quickly ceases to be seen as a kind thing for them to do. instead, you become angry when they don't. same general idea here. hope that helps.
Ok, no, that may have been the worst, most childish, explaination for hardship I've ever gotten from a Christian. Just say it's "God's plan" and get on with it.

I think the whole trouble a lot of people have with religion is exactly what you just said. You said, "and that is the point.", when if fact you made no point. one thing religion has never attempted or never succeded is to explain why "life matters". Christians also just say that we go to heaven and that's all there is to it. They don't ask (and don't want to ask) why humans are in existance in the first place. All they do is call it "God's plan" and just dismiss the issue completely.

As long as religions continue to do this, there's no real reason to believe in anything.
actually, christianity is continually explaining why we are here. firstly, we are here to worship the God of the universe. but not just because, we are here to realise He deserves worship and then consciously decide to worship Him. secondly, we are here to enjoy an intimate relationship with God.

actually, christianity is continually explaining why we are here. firstly, we are here to worship the God of the universe. but not just because, we are here to realise He deserves worship and then consciously decide to worship Him. secondly, we are here to enjoy an intimate relationship with God.
Do you not get it?

You need to go one step forward. Your talking like God needs humans to survive, which I'm sure is not what you wanted to imply.

i'm sorry, what concrete evidence? the Bible's claims are continually supported by archeology, mainly, but many other fields of study as well. not only are you missing much in the way of fossils and ways to do things to support evolution, but there are a couple species, a beetle in particular, that could not exist if darwinian theory was true.

All that archaeology has proven is that the Bible relates some events and locations semi-accurately. Whoopty-doo. It still hasn't proven the existence of God, Heaven, or a soul. It's only proven the parts that relate historically, and this does NOTHING for your arguments.

Whee, some beetles don't fit in completely to a THEORY, that at least has SOME evidence to back it up. I would like to see what EVIDENCE, mark that word, evidence, anyone has ever found to give even a whisper of a support to creationism.

All people like you love doing is using "God's plan" as a blind defense, and be completely and utterly ignorant of any other evidence, no matter how irrefutable it may be, or how completely FLAWED your arguments are.

But how can faith make more sense? If you love this argument so much, then at least tell me what these idiots (I mean scientists) found at least. Only saying it makes more sense is an empty argument.
i'm sorry, but i don't have time to explain everything for you...all the best and most relevant evidence can be found in "The Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel. it's a very good book, and it's also completely unbiased, as the author himself was once an atheist.

All that archaeology has proven is that the Bible relates some events and locations semi-accurately. Whoopty-doo. It still hasn't proven the existence of God, Heaven, or a soul. It's only proven the parts that relate historically, and this does NOTHING for your arguments.

All people like you love doing is using "God's plan" as a blind defense, and be completely and utterly ignorant of any other evidence, no matter how irrefutable it may be, or how completely FLAWED your arguments are.
THIS is why i ask for people who WANT to believe. u do not accept evidence, all u do is insult us. how about we turn it around? prove to me that there is no God. give me ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that there is no God. if you're not here to do anything other than pick at my faith, then go away.

Oh yea, sure, just give me a few months, and I'll get back to you on this...No

I would like to see at least some rational thinking on your part if you can't produce any evidence.

Whee, some beetles don't fit in completely to a THEORY, that at least has SOME evidence to back it up. I would like to see what EVIDENCE, mark that word, evidence, anyone has ever found to give even a whisper of a support to creationism.
There isn't any, all creationists do is try and discredit evolutionary theories, and think that if evolution theories are wrong, the creationist theory is automatically right.

I'm sorry for insulting you, but I just really feel like bitching about religion, as is everyone here. None of them ever said that they want to belive. (I think.)

Oh yea, sure, just give me a few months, and I'll get back to you on this...No

I would like to see at least some rational thinking on your part if you can't produce any evidence.
lol, few months? it took me all of a couple hours to read. ok, first, do you WANT to believe? i'm not gonna waist my time bickering with people who wouldn't believe even if i proved, beyond all doubt, that God existed. if you actually want to believe, i'll give you what i can remember.

THIS is why i ask for people who WANT to believe. u do not accept evidence, all u do is insult us. how about we turn it around? prove to me that there is no God. give me ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that there is no God. if you're not here to do anything other than pick at my faith, then go away.

Also, if someone picks at your faith, you should be able to defend it with something. I have a faith in living a good life, and I have a faith in not necessarily believing in a God. I am at least successfully defending what I stand for with substence, you parry with vagueness and blind belief.

mormons and jehova's witnesses are essentially the same thing, and they're a cult. their main distinguishing belief is that u must earn your way into heaven, but the Bible says that's impossible, and that grace is a gift, not a reward. i don't like to call myself protestant, but their hasn't been anything taught by them yet (that i know about) that conflicts with scripture, so i guess i am.
woah woah woah woah woah. WOAH. hold up there. JW's and Mormons are NOT cults. They are just as Christianly as you. You just need to learn about them. You obviously know nothing about JW's if you think they believe that there is even a heaven.

If someone said that sort of crap to my face I probably would have smacked them upside the head.

There isn't any, all creationists do is try and discredit evolutionary theories, and think that if evolution theories are wrong, the creationist theory is automatically right.
there is plenty, although i must add that i am not a creationist. in case you haven't noticed, we don't try to discredit evolutionary theories at all until you start do try to discredit creationism. and to the other guy, if something doesn't fit with a theory, any decent scientist would discard it and formulate a new one, with which it does fit.

I'm sorry for insulting you, but I just really feel like bitching about religion, as is everyone here. None of them ever said that they want to belive. (I think.)
Well, I asked a couples of questions earlier but it got lost in the shuffle...

Why women can't be ordained?

What part of Christianity do you find wrong and why the protestant's version is better?

And why this God and not Allah? Why should I believe in your faith instead of, say, Islam or Hinduism?

[XXXXXXXXXXXXX]
Statement retracted, someone wants to belive





QUOTE=Alexandria Quatriem]lol, few months? it took me all of a couple hours to read. ok, first, do you WANT to believe? i'm not gonna waist my time bickering with people who wouldn't believe even if i proved, beyond all doubt, that God existed. if you actually want to believe, i'll give you what i can remember.[/QUOTE]

You might want to step out of this argument completely then and stop bickering yourself, because you just seem to have come down to our level, but in a different way. So far, no one has said they WANT to believe.

woah woah woah woah woah. WOAH. hold up there. JW's and Mormons are NOT cults. They are just as Christianly as you. You just need to learn about them. You obviously know nothing about JW's if you think they believe that there is even a heaven.
lol, that's almost funny. read the definition of a cult, and you'll see that they are. and i just took a class about JW's, and the teacher, a JW himself, said rather clearly that they believe you must earn your way into heaven. this is stupid, i must leave, anyone who actually WANTS TO BELIEVE, telegram me.

lol, few months? it took me all of a couple hours to read. ok, first, do you WANT to believe? i'm not gonna waist my time bickering with people who wouldn't believe even if i proved, beyond all doubt, that God existed. if you actually want to believe, i'll give you what i can remember.
This attitude is what creates hostility toward non-believers and religious people. The simple fact of the matter is you cannot answer all of my questions, yet you pretend you do. In addition, you think the answer is so blatantly obvious that you find it foolish that others don't see it as well. I don't even speak of the feasibility of religion. I have problems with the fundamental aspects of many religion.

i'm sorry, what concrete evidence? the Bible's claims are continually supported by archeology, mainly, but many other fields of study as well. not only are you missing much in the way of fossils and ways to do things to support evolution, but there are a couple species, a beetle in particular, that could not exist if darwinian theory was true.
Archeologists have found Troy, does that make the events in the Illiad correct? So there are gods and goddesses running around because there is historic evidence to support a historic event? There is no concrete evidence in the bible that supports a supernatural being. It was written by Man and put together by the church in the 5th century. As for the Darwinian theory, perhaps you should investigate what that actually means rather than assume you know what it means. Natural selection (along with mutation) is the driving force of evolution. There is no way you could state the existence of this "beetle" as impossible according to Darwinian theory without being biased. The beetle in question evolved in a certain way because those characteristics were favorable for its survival in that environment. But let's not dwell on the bettle, how do you explain skeletal remains of early hominids which have been dated to be 2-3 million years old? Or animals that have been extinct for millions of years? Heck, how do you explain the dinosaurs?

THIS is why i ask for people who WANT to believe. u do not accept evidence, all u do is insult us. how about we turn it around? prove to me that there is no God. give me ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that there is no God. if you're not here to do anything other than pick at my faith, then go away.
I'll give you evidence that there's no god as soon as you give me evidence that I don't own a T101 terminator named Mr. Nibbles.

I don't even speak of the feasibility of religion. I have problems with the fundamental aspects of many religion.

Damn, I'm talking about both. lol

lol, that's almost funny. read the definition of a cult, and you'll see that they are. and i just took a class about JW's, and the teacher, a JW himself, said rather clearly that they believe you must earn your way into heaven. this is stupid, i must leave, anyone who actually WANTS TO BELIEVE, telegram me.
DUDE. I grew up going to a JW Kingdom Hall. I know wtf they teach. They believe that only 144000 are going to rule with Jesus in heaven and everyone else stays on the earth. As far as the defintion of a cult I know what it is. But for the sake of your stupidity here's the dictionary.com definition:

cult
a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

That's the main definition. The problem with JW's being a cult is that they do not follow a single leader. We could say the Catholic's are cults however due to the pope. Although the pope isn't charismatic.

lol, that's almost funny. read the definition of a cult, and you'll see that they are. and i just took a class about JW's, and the teacher, a JW himself, said rather clearly that they believe you must earn your way into heaven. this is stupid, i must leave, anyone who actually WANTS TO BELIEVE, telegram me.
I believe that protestantism is a cult.

Explain to me where the JW and the Mormons are a cult and protestantism isn't.

that's true, but the things they differ on aren't really going to affect whether or not they get to heaven. personally, i think many things about the catholic church are screwed up, mostly cuz they don't make sense and have no basis in scripture. mormons and jehova's witnesses are essentially the same thing, and they're a cult. their main distinguishing belief is that u must earn your way into heaven, but the Bible says that's impossible, and that grace is a gift, not a reward. i don't like to call myself protestant, but their hasn't been anything taught by them yet (that i know about) that conflicts with scripture, so i guess i am.

I have to take issue with this. Even I, as a disinterested atheist, understand that the bible is not the source of catholic scripture. To a catholic, scripture != the bible!!!!!!!!!!

Scripture is carried by the apostles, and those who suceed them (i.e., the Bishops of the Church). It is not something that is written down in a book.

Remember, christianity was started by, and for, people who were largely illiterate, or barely literate. You just can't pull out a copy of the KJV, and say that catholic theology is wrong because it is contradicted by the Bible, it doesn't work that way.

The bible is not the literal word of god to a catholic; the authority of christ is carried by the Bishops and the Pope, not a book.

(The same is true for the Church of England).

To Alexandria: Why do you simply defend your belief with arguments like "God's plan" "this theory isn't perfect" "these guys are a cult" "archaeology proves that God exists". You don't defend with evidence or even rationale. Tell me, what do you think you're defending with?

there is plenty, although i must add that i am not a creationist. in case you haven't noticed, we don't try to discredit evolutionary theories at all until you start do try to discredit creationism. and to the other guy, if something doesn't fit with a theory, any decent scientist would discard it and formulate a new one, with which it does fit.
This is false, simply because it is the same way as the Galileo problem from the 16th century. There was no real evidence supporting creationism except the bible. Only when another scientist finally challenged church teachings was a new theory of evolution proposed. The problem with your statement is that the new proposal was backed up with evidence. While creationism was only a theory because it was church teachings. The evolutionary theory never discredited creationist evidence because there simply wasn't any. It was simply considered common knowledge just as the Earth was the center of the universe during the Middle Ages.

The only thing Evolutionist have done is discredit discrediting evidence from creationists.

I believe that protestantism is a cult.

Explain to me where the JW and the Mormons are a cult and protestantism isn't.
that's what i think is funny. one is a cult and the other isnt. only because you dont believe what they believe even though most of it is similar.

lol, few months? it took me all of a couple hours to read. ok, first, do you WANT to believe? i'm not gonna waist my time bickering with people who wouldn't believe even if i proved, beyond all doubt, that God existed. if you actually want to believe, i'll give you what i can remember.

god cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This argument reminds me of an old adage from The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mind bogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't." QED
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

For the record I'm an Agnostic... So anything is possible and nothing is provable in my opinion.

i'm sorry, what concrete evidence? the Bible's claims are continually supported by archeology, mainly, but many other fields of study as well. not only are you missing much in the way of fossils and ways to do things to support evolution, but there are a couple species, a beetle in particular, that could not exist if darwinian theory was true.
Name those beetles and explain exactly why they couldn't have evolved.

100 bucks he can't.

Name those beetles and explain exactly why they couldn't have evolved.

100 bucks he can't.
"God's plan"

Give me my hundred bucks!

Name those beetles and explain exactly why they couldn't have evolved.

100 bucks he can't.

To demonstrate my amazing prophetic powers... the answer will be "Bombardier beetles" and "they would explode before they finished evolving!!!"

To demonstrate my amazing prophetic powers... the answer will be "Bombardier beetles" and "they would explode before they finished evolving!!!"
Oh, if that's the case it should be easy to counter.

i'm sorry. scientists would say that because they have reason too. they will have checked it out and declared it the logical conclusion, according to scientific theory. i apologize i don't have the evidence on me, but this is straying from wanting to believe to making excuses not to again

I'm going to have this tatooed on my chest, and if I ever encounter God (or any other perfect being) I will unbutton my shirt, let Him/Her read it, and then watch His/Her head explode.

Religion is essentially only good moral teachings. Why do we need the whole God part? We only need to believe in doing the right thing. We don't need a diety to tell us, or for us to believe in any diety, as long as we live a good life. Not a good life in the service of any lord, but just a good life.

Well put DoDoBirds.

that's true, but the things they differ on aren't really going to affect whether or not they get to heaven. personally, i think many things about the catholic church are screwed up, mostly cuz they don't make sense and have no basis in scripture. mormons and jehova's witnesses are essentially the same thing, and they're a cult. their main distinguishing belief is that u must earn your way into heaven, but the Bible says that's impossible, and that grace is a gift, not a reward. i don't like to call myself protestant, but their hasn't been anything taught by them yet (that i know about) that conflicts with scripture, so i guess i am.

Mormons follow a separate scripture, inspired unto a new prophet, yes?

But Witnesses only follow the Bible... in fact, more rigourously than most 'christians'... so how are they a cult?

i'm sorry. scientists would say that because they have reason too. they will have checked it out and declared it the logical conclusion, according to scientific theory. i apologize i don't have the evidence on me, but this is straying from wanting to believe to making excuses not to again

Sorry, friend... but I don't believe you, in the slightest.

If you can't cite a source, you should probably retract your assertion.

I would say that if I was given a reason to believe I would believe. I have nothing against personal religion, I just have never been too big on doing what a book tells me to do, and that seems to be the only evidence provided for Christianity.

Ditto.

Why women can't be ordained?

Because Jesus was a man, and ordained priests take the place of Jesus during the liturgy. I hope that's of some help to you.

ture, faith is described by the Bible as "trusing what we cannot see", but that doesn't make it scientific. it's scientific because there is evidence supporting what we believe. the same way evolution is scientific because there is supporting evidence. much of darwin's theory requires a certain degree of faith, admittedly more than faith in the Bible.

Evolution is 'scientific' because it is a mechanism based on the observed phenomena, to attempt to explain how those phenomena took place.

'Faith' isn't 'scientific' because it is based on the phenomenon explained, not the observed phenomenon.

Yeah, I never believed that Jesus "The Messiah" existed and was some character... but if he did, someone probably assumed he was God's son because he was so horribly ugly and spread God's word, of course. Anyway, I denounced any religion I ever had when I was in 8th grade when I dropped out of Confirmation... yeah. Science rules, so does Darwin. Earth to people, we weren't put here for a "reason." You all say that miracles exist, then believe that life on this planet was a chance in hell and yes, this is a miracle. Oh yeah, Jesus wasn't white.

Thank you.
- Emily -

people are going to hate me I'm sure... I even believe abortion should be a right.

THIS is why i ask for people who WANT to believe. u do not accept evidence, all u do is insult us. how about we turn it around? prove to me that there is no God. give me ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL that there is no God. if you're not here to do anything other than pick at my faith, then go away.

You are saying that you want to disseminate falsehoods without being questioned?

Sorry, friend... but if you are going to make ridiculous claims, you have to expect someone to take you to task on them... if for no other reason that to prevent you convincing some poor soul who knows no better.

If you can convince someone with ACCURATE quotation from the Bible... go for it... but when you start making up pseudo-scientific 'reasons'... you are going to get 'shut down'.

Yeah, I never believed that Jesus "The Messiah" existed and was some character... but if he did, someone probably assumed he was God's son because he was so horribly ugly and spread God's word, of course. Anyway, I denounced any religion I ever had when I was in 8th grade when I dropped out of Confirmation... yeah. Science rules, so does Darwin. Earth to people, we weren't put here for a "reason." You all say that miracles exist, then believe that life on this planet was a chance in hell and yes, this is a miracle. Oh yeah, Jesus wasn't white.

Thank you.
- Emily -

people are going to hate me I'm sure... I even believe abortion should be a right.

There is no evidence. That's the thing.

I would happily believe in a 'god', in Jesus as 'messiah'... whatever.

If there was ANY evidence.

It is illogical to accept an uncorroborated story that RELIES on supernatural intervention, when there are other, more mundane explanations.

All in all, I agree... and yes, I think abortion should be a right, too.

You are saying that you want to disseminate falsehoods without being questioned?




Essentially yes.

Well, that and play at being insulting and arrogant in attacking the strawman of "people who want to believe in god but are hedonists and think there is a contradiction"

He isnt the first fundie to self-congratulate in such a manner, I dont see why it isnt considered trolling, honestly.

i'm sorry, what concrete evidence? the Bible's claims are continually supported by archeology, mainly, but many other fields of study as well. not only are you missing much in the way of fossils and ways to do things to support evolution, but there are a couple species, a beetle in particular, that could not exist if darwinian theory was true.


I have yet to see ANY concrete evidence for any of the 'miraculous' nature of the Bible. Finding a rock that may have been part of the wall of Jericho does NOT prove that a god-powered army felled that wall by shouting at it.

lol, that's almost funny. read the definition of a cult, and you'll see that they are. and i just took a class about JW's, and the teacher, a JW himself, said rather clearly that they believe you must earn your way into heaven. this is stupid, i must leave, anyone who actually WANTS TO BELIEVE, telegram me.

You 'took a class'... and that makes you more of an expert than people that ARE Witnesses, or that know them, personally?

Because Jesus was a man, and ordained priests take the place of Jesus during the liturgy. I hope that's of some help to you.

Except that some of the books so harshly supressed by the (male-centred) Catholic church, suggest that Mary Magdalene was actually supposed to carry on Jesus' ministry on earth... and that the 'story' of it being handed to a man is just a story... a conspiracy on behalf of power-hungry men.

Essentially yes.

Well, that and play at being insulting and arrogant in attacking the strawman of "people who want to believe in god but are hedonists and think there is a contradiction"

He isnt the first fundie to self-congratulate in such a manner, I dont see why it isnt considered trolling, honestly.

Personally, I think he/she must have just slipped below moderator radar... or maybe he/she isn't QUITE insulting and pompous enough, yet...

I have certainly been thinking 'troll' for some time...

i've noticed that most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, theyjust don't want to believe. one guy i talked to spent forever stressing about why he couldn't believe until i finally got him to admit that he just didn't wanna believe, cuz he didn't wanna stop having sex. so this is for people who actually wanna believe, but have questions. if u just don't wanna believe, or just wanna make my life miserable, please don't. God bless.
What does having sex to do with believing in God?
Is it a contradiction?

My wife is a practicing Christian, she seems to want sex quite a bit (I'm thankful, mind you). If being a Christian makes you stop wanting to have sex, I think you might be doing it wrong. (Christianity and sex).

So I can theoretically rape, burn, murder, and destroy all my life, and right before they inject me with the needle I can say "oh please forgive me god" and all will be fine?! What kind of reasoning is that? Because, your statement says that if I do all that (theoretically), and beg right before I die, that God will take me into heaven, no questions asked. Well then, heaven should be filled with cutthroats and killers. Maybe when you get there you can say "hi" to John Wilkes Booth for me.

Don't you know church is filled with liars, hypocrites and fools?

**I was shocked, confused, bewildered**
**as I entered Heaven's door,**
**Not by the beauty of it all,**
**by the lights or its decor.**


**But it was the folks in Heaven**
**who made me sputter and gasp--**
**the thieves, the liars, the sinners,**
**the alcoholics, the trash.**


**There stood the kid from seventh grade**
**who swiped my lunch money twice.**
**Next to him was my old neighbor**
**who never said anything nice.**


**Herb, who I always thought**
**was rotting away in hell,**
**was sitting pretty on cloud nine,**
**looking incredibly well.**


**I nudged Jesus, "What's the deal?**
**I would love to hear Your take.**
**How'd all these sinners get up here?**
**God must've made a mistake.**


**And why's everyone so quiet,**
**so somber? Give me a clue."**
**"Hush, child," said He. "They're all in shock.**
**No one thought they'd see you."**


**Judge NOT...***

people are going to hate me I'm sure... I even believe abortion should be a right.

No, not hate, just disagree with your stance. I TRY not to hate anybody (although with certain people like Hitler etc. I find it hard.)

as for a reason to believe...i can think of a couple things, but they're mostly my personal experiences, and i doubt if that will help...ok.

I have many, many experiences with God and his loving power, even in my 11 years on Earth. They are all in one place: a mission to the Utah Navajos in a small town. I have seen so many lives change for the better there, and if an atheist saw just one of them, he would probably devote the rest of his life to Jesus, our saviour.

I'm not sure of the worth of trying to scientifically prove the truth of the writings of any faith. Surely the end point always arrives with a question of faith - a leap of faith actually.

Is a reliance on faith alone not enough?

I'm not sure of the worth of trying to scientifically prove the truth of the writings of any faith. Surely the end point always arrives with a question of faith - a leap of faith actually.

Is a reliance on faith alone not enough?
a reliance on faith is enough, but some people feel much better if they know they're founded on evidence...for most atheists though, they just want to challenge our faith...even if a giant Zeus-like figure were to appear in the sky with lightning in His hands and say "I AM SICK AND TIRED OF ALL YOU STUPID ATHEISTS, LET IT BE KNOWN THAT I AM GOD, AND I CERTAINLY EXIST!", chances are most of them would refuse to believe, blaming it on conspirators, or christian fanatics, or the weather, or something

Well, I asked a couples of questions earlier but it got lost in the shuffle...

Why women can't be ordained?

What part of Christianity do you find wrong and why the protestant's version is better?

And why this God and not Allah? Why should I believe in your faith instead of, say, Islam or Hinduism?
sry it took me so long...women are only not allowed to be ordained in the catholic church, and i must say that that church is an emberassement to me as a christian, i am not affiliated with it. i don't find any part fo christianity wrong, and the protestant's "version" is just closest to the truth. i believe what the Bible tells me, and what i know from experience...nothing more or less. i, as a believer, would say this faith and not that because this is the only true faith. with a less biased opinion, however, i am reduced to something along the lines of, however little evidence you accept supporting ym faith, there is less, far less, if any, supporting either islam or hinduism. what there is is mostly just recorded history that really has nothing to do with their beliefs

I have many, many experiences with God and his loving power, even in my 11 years on Earth. They are all in one place: a mission to the Utah Navajos in a small town. I have seen so many lives change for the better there, and if an atheist saw just one of them, he would probably devote the rest of his life to Jesus, our saviour.

Well... the thing is, one could easily say thet what you've just described isn't an example of the love of God, it's an example of the love of humans.

While it's true that their faith may have inspired them to do all these things, couldn't one equally leave with the impression "Wow, people have the potential to be really great!"?

I have to take issue with this. Even I, as a disinterested atheist, understand that the bible is not the source of catholic scripture. To a catholic, scripture != the bible!!!!!!!!!!

Scripture is carried by the apostles, and those who suceed them (i.e., the Bishops of the Church). It is not something that is written down in a book.

Remember, christianity was started by, and for, people who were largely illiterate, or barely literate. You just can't pull out a copy of the KJV, and say that catholic theology is wrong because it is contradicted by the Bible, it doesn't work that way.

The bible is not the literal word of god to a catholic; the authority of christ is carried by the Bishops and the Pope, not a book.

(The same is true for the Church of England).
that's exactly how the catholic church is screwed up. they believe that if a pope says something, it must be true, cuz he's somehow holier than everyone else. it's made clear that the only scripture is the bible, when they have things they believe with no basis in it, i think they're screwed up.

Well... the thing is, one could easily say thet what you've just described isn't an example of the love of God, it's an example of the love of humans.

While it's true that their faith may have inspired them to do all these things, couldn't one equally leave with the impression "Wow, people have the potential to be really great!"?
very much so. unfortunately, God has set it up brilliantly so that only those who actually seek will find, and if you do not want to seek, you will not have to find. this is an example of the love of God; He doesn't force Himself on anyone.

sry, that wasn't very clear. i mean, He's done it so that you can with no trouble at all put things He's done down to chance, or people, or whatever. there's nothing that could not be anything but an act of God, excepting the creation of life and the universe

this is an example of the love of God; He doesn't force Himself on anyone.

No, his followers do that for him.

No, his followers do that for him.
yes, sadly, they do...it's quite a pity...

My difficulty is, what is God, I don't mean what does God represent, but what is the actual manifestation of God.
I am not asking what god is, in terms of faith but in terms of knowledge.

very much so. unfortunately, God has set it up brilliantly so that only those who actually seek will find, and if you do not want to seek, you will not have to find. this is an example of the love of God; He doesn't force Himself on anyone.

But what about the people who actually seek god but do not find him because of no fault of their own? If God wants a loving relationship with people why then are there people who have been honeslty looking to find God but have not found him by no fault of their own?

I've been reading "The one who knows God" by Clement of Alexandria. Now, if his interpretations of certain parts of the bible are correct, then if you die and still feel the NEED for material possesions, God will not receive you. Fortunately, I can hope that this is not true, because when he wrote this (the very early days of Christianity), rich people with a lot of land were a problem, and Christianity most likely wanted to attract the already poor, and tell them "Don't wish or want anything now, because if you don't, you will have all that you might wish for and more in heaven." An interpretation of the first 6 or so chapters of Clement's book can also tell you that what he wished to prevent is having more rich people with power who use that power for ill purposes. I hope this reinfoces my point that religion is just a collection of good morals. However, I doubt that anyone here will be able to live up to all the good morals in the testaments consistently.

I have a question for somebody...

I was talking to a collegue who is a devout christian - of what denomination I am not sure, who indicated that although he has a respect for other religions he is firmly of the belief that his is true and the others are, however well meaning, flawed. Now as my friend is white anglo saxon who was born in a predominently christian tradition country, is he just 'lucky'?

Are all the other millions of devout religious beleivers effectly damned at birth to follow a flawed path simply because of the country and tradition they are born into?

I will respect anyones view on this by not criticising any opinions before I even read them!

If there is a God, I don't think he/she/it honestly cares how you grew up (unless you really were a bad person) as long as you led a good life. It's not like God plays favorites with any religion, as common misconception would have you believe.

My Karma ran over your Dogma.

Actual Bumper sticker: "My Catholic Priest Molested Your Honor Roll Student"
And: "Who Would Jesus Bomb?"

sry it took me so long...women are only not allowed to be ordained in the catholic church, and i must say that that church is an emberassement to me as a christian, i am not affiliated with it. i don't find any part fo christianity wrong, and the protestant's "version" is just closest to the truth. i believe what the Bible tells me, and what i know from experience...nothing more or less.
Really? You do realize that the protestants split from catholicism because the King of England wanted a divorce and the pope refused? The protestant, if I remember my history, even said that the virgin Mary dogma was not true. Now you tell me that you base your opinion on the bible and that the protestant version is more accurate. I must ask you why do you follow a denomination that contradicts the frame of reference that you use.

And I asked on the women's issue because you did accurately answered my questions about which faith you followed and what denomination, I had to guess. And that is not a good thing on a forum.

i, as a believer, would say this faith and not that because this is the only true faith. with a less biased opinion, however, i am reduced to something along the lines of, however little evidence you accept supporting ym faith, there is less, far less, if any, supporting either islam or hinduism.
So you assessment is that I believe this faith because it's the one true faith. I gotta tell you, my Muslim friend disagree with you. He thinks his is the one true faith. Explain to me why christianity is the true one and not the others. On what do you base your assessment. Because I see absolutely no reason why christianity HAS to be the one true faith from your writing.

And while you're at it, explain how there is less supporting for either Islam or Hinduism. Your dismissive tone doesn't cut it with me. You'll have to explain it better than that.

what there is is mostly just recorded history that really has nothing to do with their beliefs
And Christianity isn't mostly just recorded history that really has nothing to do with their beliefs? I think you need to research more the other faith if you want to convince us that yours is the one true faith.

Alexandria, it is absolutely impossible to convince you to even give any contrary idea posted on this thread a dust mite of consideration, because you just stick to one unfounded belief (not Christianity, but just the whole feel of your arguments) and you defend that unfounded belief blindly with completely hollow defenses. Now you say Christianity is THE religion. That kind of thinking makes all superioritist religions (We are the one true faith ones) hate each other. Please, just stop and THINK for a moment, and stop taking everything fed to you for granted, and then trying to turn others into you using the hollow arguments described above.

Really? You do realize that the protestants split from catholicism because the King of England wanted a divorce and the pope refused? The protestant, if I remember my history, even said that the virgin Mary dogma was not true. Now you tell me that you base your opinion on the bible and that the protestant version is more accurate. I must ask you why do you follow a denomination that contradicts the frame of reference that you use.

First of all, Protestantism got it's start from Martin Luther, in Germany, when he posted the 95 theses on the church doors. This was before the ANglican church formed, and that as you said had nothing to do with any substantive religious fervor. Furthermore, the problem with the Catholic church is that many people put the Virgin Mary near the plane of the divine, when she was just a girl chosen by God.


And I asked on the women's issue because you did accurately answered my questions about which faith you followed and what denomination, I had to guess. And that is not a good thing on a forum.

Why is it his fault that you 'guessed' wrong?


So you assessment is that I believe this faith because it's the one true faith. I gotta tell you, my Muslim friend disagree with you. He thinks his is the one true faith. Explain to me why christianity is the true one and not the others. On what do you base your assessment. Because I see absolutely no reason why christianity HAS to be the one true faith from your writing.

And while you're at it, explain how there is less supporting for either Islam or Hinduism. Your dismissive tone doesn't cut it with me. You'll have to explain it better than that.

And Christianity isn't mostly just recorded history that really has nothing to do with their beliefs? I think you need to research more the other faith if you want to convince us that yours is the one true faith.

Why don't you just chill out yourself. Not everyone has the time to delve into every religion. Arguably, you should know something about other religions if you want to make a case for your own. I believe Christianity is the only religion, but I'm still working out all the details, and I've been practicing since I was a child. You could study other religions for centuries and not find one thing you need that would prove to you that Christianity is real. Ultimately, you need to study Christianity from a critical eye. Many people have done this and still decided that it was true. Perhaps you should look up Ravi Zacarias?

First of all, Protestantism got it's start from Martin Luther, in Germany, when he posted the 95 theses on the church doors. This was before the ANglican church formed, and that as you said had nothing to do with any substantive religious fervor. Furthermore, the problem with the Catholic church is that many people put the Virgin Mary near the plane of the divine, when she was just a girl chosen by God.
Right, got confused there. Thanks for the reminder. Although I disagree about the Catholic - Mary angle, I can see where you would think that.


Why is it his fault that you 'guessed' wrong?
Of course not, I was merey giving pointers. When someone ask you which religion and what denomination, you should be able to answer better than: the one true religion.



Why don't you just chill out yourself. Not everyone has the time to delve into every religion. Arguably, you should know something about other religions if you want to make a case for your own. I believe Christianity is the only religion, but I'm still working out all the details, and I've been practicing since I was a child. You could study other religions for centuries and not find one thing you need that would prove to you that Christianity is real. Ultimately, you need to study Christianity from a critical eye. Many people have done this and still decided that it was true. Perhaps you should look up Ravi Zacarias?
Will look into him. It's obvious the original poster didn't and if he wants to give us advice, he better damn expect to come with better answers than what he did.

I mean, everyone can say "My religion is better because it's the one true religion." You have to do better than that. I'm not asking for proof of God, I'm asking for reasons why this religion is better than the hundreds other out there. And you can't say "It just is."

And why do YOU believe that Christianity is the one true religion?

And why do YOU believe that Christianity is the one true religion?

That's a really tough question, I guess since I jumped in there I should be prepared to answer it.

I talk to Jesus, pray to God, take communion, study the Bible, sing praise songs et cetera. I'm not saying this as boasting... if you knew me you would know I'm a Christian who has been saved from a great deal of sin.

When I do these things, it feels "real." I feel connected to God. When I take communion, I feel indebted to Jesus for being punished for me even though He was innocent. When I sing praise music, I can feel God cleaning me, it often brings tears to my eye. When I study the Bible, it gratifies me when all the pieces fit together and a passage begins to make sense. Where others say they see falsehood in the Bible, I see logic.

How can I specify why I believe when I don't remember the switch from unbelief to belief? For some it is gradual, for others it is sudden. I suppose for somone who suddenly believes in Christianity, they could point out what it is that made them believe. As for me, I experienced the "conversion moments" after I already believed I was a Christian, so I can't point to any one point in my life that makes me spiritually who I am now.

I guess when it comes down to it you have to know that you know that you know.

That's a really tough question, I guess since I jumped in there I should be prepared to answer it.

I talk to Jesus, pray to God, take communion, study the Bible, sing praise songs et cetera. I'm not saying this as boasting... if you knew me you would know I'm a Christian who has been saved from a great deal of sin.

When I do these things, it feels "real." I feel connected to God. When I take communion, I feel indebted to Jesus for being punished for me even though He was innocent. When I sing praise music, I can feel God cleaning me, it often brings tears to my eye. When I study the Bible, it gratifies me when all the pieces fit together and a passage begins to make sense. Where others say they see falsehood in the Bible, I see logic.

How can I specify why I believe when I don't remember the switch from unbelief to belief? For some it is gradual, for others it is sudden. I suppose for somone who suddenly believes in Christianity, they could point out what it is that made them believe. As for me, I experienced the "conversion moments" after I already believed I was a Christian, so I can't point to any one point in my life that makes me spiritually who I am now.

I guess when it comes down to it you have to know that you know that you know.
Okay, say for example that some friend of yours has had pretty much the same experiences (being raised in the faith, feeling and seeing acts of God in some ways, reads his Koran and understands some passages and why it was written). The both of you are coming to me to save my soul.

Why should I choose you over him. What it boils down to, the way I see it, is the moral teachings of the faith in question.

I understand why you feel that way about Christianity. But think about this: what if you were raised in Islam? Would it not feel just as real for you?

(BTW, I picked Islam because of the similarities between the two faith.)

My difficulty is, what is God, I don't mean what does God represent, but what is the actual manifestation of God.
I am not asking what god is, in terms of faith but in terms of knowledge.
i really can't answer that question, nor do i think anyone else can, or ever will be able to until we enter heaven.

ok, that's very reasonable...but it seems as thought somebody might have mixed u up. i know u didn't say this, but it sounds like u think u have to believe and do as the Bible tells u before u can be forgiven....the only advice on this i can offer, is u don't. u ask for forgiveness, believe u can be forgiven, and u will be. don't worry about doing wut's right yet, dont'w orry about "rules" or anything, just ask for forgiveness, and God will make you clean. i find that generally after u've seen God's tremendous love, or power, or both, a few times, most people start to do wut God wants simply because they love Him.

as for a reason to believe...i can think of a couple things, but they're mostly my personal experiences, and i doubt if that will help...ok. all things that come into being have a cause, this has been proven. the universe came into being, this has also been proven. therefore the universe must have a cause, and that cause must be uncaused, meaning it always was, is, and shall be.
Why the hell would I want to take advice from someone who spells you as "u" and what as "wat"?

Yeah, I may be drunk and critical, but I'm not taking advice from a native english speaker who butchers the language so terribly.

But what about the people who actually seek god but do not find him because of no fault of their own? If God wants a loving relationship with people why then are there people who have been honeslty looking to find God but have not found him by no fault of their own?
i don't know any situation as such, and i've never heard of one...if there are, and i'm presuming you wouldn't lie, i think that either it's not truelly no fault of their own, like those who say they want to believe, but actually don't, or perhaps they haven't found God yet, but are going to, or maybe, and this is difficult to accept if u don't believe in God, He might know that even if they found Him, they would not accept Him, and therefore it's pointless.

i've been convinced by evidence and personal experience that Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and so i'd rather not mislead people from what i see to be divine truth.
Yeah, and I've been convinced by personal expeience that christianity is full of shit.

Sure what this Jesus character talks about is all well and good, but Buddha beat him to the punch there by a couple thousand years. I dont' need a saviour. I can do it myself.

I have a question for somebody...

I was talking to a collegue who is a devout christian - of what denomination I am not sure, who indicated that although he has a respect for other religions he is firmly of the belief that his is true and the others are, however well meaning, flawed. Now as my friend is white anglo saxon who was born in a predominently christian tradition country, is he just 'lucky'?

Are all the other millions of devout religious beleivers effectly damned at birth to follow a flawed path simply because of the country and tradition they are born into?

I will respect anyones view on this by not criticising any opinions before I even read them!
that's a very good question, and very difficult to answer. you could consider him lucky, yes. but you must remember that God also chooses when and where we are born, and to whom, and so could easily place all those who would not accept him regardless of circumstances.....but no, they are not effectively damned. God speaks to everyone, all they have to do is listen. i know quite a few people who were born and raised in muslim countries, with muslim famillies, and virtually no contact with christians what so-ever, but became christians none the less. i'd also like to point out that the Bible says God is delaying the return of Christ in order to save as many as possible.

i don't know any situation as such, and i've never heard of one...if there are, and i'm presuming you wouldn't lie, i think that either it's not truelly no fault of their own, like those who say they want to believe, but actually don't, or perhaps they haven't found God yet, but are going to, or maybe, and this is difficult to accept if u don't believe in God, He might know that even if they found Him, they would not accept Him, and therefore it's pointless.
Oh, really?

I spent more htan half my life trying to find your god. I opened my heart to him and nothing. Absolutely fucking nothing. Have you ever been to an altar call?

Try going up, opening your heart to Jesus and having absolutely nothing happen as everyone around you cries and hugs in happines. Then try reading the Bible after that, going to church, desperately trying to cling to this faith of yours, and feeling empty, feeling dead inside...

Funny how once I gave up on christianity, I've been feeling so much better.

First of all, Protestantism got it's start from Martin Luther, in Germany, when he posted the 95 theses on the church doors.

I know this is off topic but i couldnt resist. Im in a Reformation class right now. Martin Luther didnt actually nail the 95 theses to the church doors. It was not even addressed to the church but to his students for a discussion. Copies were then spread around. Thats how it began to get circulated. The story about nailing them to the doors was created much later. Sorry for the off topicness :) but I thought i would poke my head in. ;)

Really? You do realize that the protestants split from catholicism because the King of England wanted a divorce and the pope refused? The protestant, if I remember my history, even said that the virgin Mary dogma was not true. Now you tell me that you base your opinion on the bible and that the protestant version is more accurate. I must ask you why do you follow a denomination that contradicts the frame of reference that you use.

And I asked on the women's issue because you did accurately answered my questions about which faith you followed and what denomination, I had to guess. And that is not a good thing on a forum.


So you assessment is that I believe this faith because it's the one true faith. I gotta tell you, my Muslim friend disagree with you. He thinks his is the one true faith. Explain to me why christianity is the true one and not the others. On what do you base your assessment. Because I see absolutely no reason why christianity HAS to be the one true faith from your writing.

And while you're at it, explain how there is less supporting for either Islam or Hinduism. Your dismissive tone doesn't cut it with me. You'll have to explain it better than that.


And Christianity isn't mostly just recorded history that really has nothing to do with their beliefs? I think you need to research more the other faith if you want to convince us that yours is the one true faith.
i think you have the wrong version of protestantism...the anglican church split because the king wanted a divorce, and i believe both that divorce is wrong, except in cases of marital unfaithfulness, and that mary was a virgin.

i believe mine is the one true faith because i can fell God speaking to me, and because since i became a christian my life has been radically changed, and because i've read a few books by christians and atheists on the topic, and the evidence, which i'm too lazy to go look for, is rather convincing. i'm sure your muslim friend would disagree with me, but i don't really care.

for example, most of the writings about muhamud just tell what he did and said, and none of it is particularly miraculous or divinely inspired or anything, he just says what he has to say, and lets you believe it or not. Jesus, on the other hand, it does just write about what He said and did, but He backs it up with miracles, healings, revelations, etc. this is, of course, only if u believe the Bible to be true. i'd like to note that when asked to perform a miracle, muhamud actually refused.

Oh, really?

I spent more htan half my life trying to find your god. I opened my heart to him and nothing. Absolutely fucking nothing. Have you ever been to an altar call?

Try going up, opening your heart to Jesus and having absolutely nothing happen as everyone around you cries and hugs in happines. Then try reading the Bible after that, going to church, desperately trying to cling to this faith of yours, and feeling empty, feeling dead inside...

Funny how once I gave up on christianity, I've been feeling so much better.

I agree with you. I was all into my christian life then it all fell apart. I felt restricted because of God and felt like i was never good enough. I too have felt a little better after i left christianity.

So I can theoretically rape, burn, murder, and destroy all my life, and right before they inject me with the needle I can say "oh please forgive me god" and all will be fine?! What kind of reasoning is that? Because, your statement says that if I do all that (theoretically), and beg right before I die, that God will take me into heaven, no questions asked. Well then, heaven should be filled with cutthroats and killers. Maybe when you get there you can say "hi" to John Wilkes Booth for me.
Yeah, plus the whole bit about how if someone is an extremely good person, they help others they do shit to benefit all and act selflessly, they go to hell because they lived in a part of thw workd where Jesus never came into the picture, that is some fucked up shit.

Alexandria, it is absolutely impossible to convince you to even give any contrary idea posted on this thread a dust mite of consideration, because you just stick to one unfounded belief (not Christianity, but just the whole feel of your arguments) and you defend that unfounded belief blindly with completely hollow defenses. Now you say Christianity is THE religion. That kind of thinking makes all superioritist religions (We are the one true faith ones) hate each other. Please, just stop and THINK for a moment, and stop taking everything fed to you for granted, and then trying to turn others into you using the hollow arguments described above.
the arguments are not hollow, you just don't accept them. i'm not spitting out what i've been fed, but what i believe, and i'm NOT trying to turn others into me. it is NOT superioritist, i don't think i'm better or smarter than anyone else, i just happen to be saved.

Yeah, plus the whole bit about how if someone is an extremely good person, they help others they do shit to benefit all and act selflessly, they go to hell because they lived in a part of thw workd where Jesus never came into the picture, that is some fucked up shit.

Yeah, I guess Ghandi is in hell too since he was hindu....

I agree with you. I was all into my christian life then it all fell apart. I felt restricted because of God and felt like i was never good enough. I too have felt a little better after i left christianity.
I don't just feel a little better though. I feel whole. I felt empty when I was christian. As an agnostic, fully admitting that I don't know anything, I feel whole, I feel great, I'm comfortable with who I am. I don't think it's the liberation from having to "be good" that did it, I think it's admitting to myself that humanity can never know what else is out there, at least not during this lifetime, such an epiphany has brought completeness and peace.

this is all nice and fun, but what don't you people get about the bit where i'm LOOKING FOR SEEKERS? i don't want you in here if you're not looking for God. if you're talking to me, you should be looking for an excuse TO believe, not and excuse not to.

the arguments are not hollow, you just don't accept them. i'm not spitting out what i've been fed, but what i believe, and i'm NOT trying to turn others into me. it is NOT superioritist, i don't think i'm better or smarter than anyone else, i just happen to be saved.
Look, you know what your problem is?

You live in a world with other people.

Other people were not brought up the same as you. Other people do not share your personality, we do not all share your common experiences, we do not go for the same arguments, we do not fall for the same tricks, we do not consider the same evidence valid, we all see things from a different perspective than you.

To you, the arguments may be valid, but that is based on your own personal biases, to another, your arguments are full of shit. This isn't because they are unwilling to hear you out, this is because what convinces you does not convince them. You have to accept this and stop being an idiot and pretending that you're persecuted and that others disagree with you because they're unwilling to listen. Unless you can present an argument that everyone can identify with, that everyone can perceive as reasonable, then you're not going to sway everyone. Hell, the way you argue, you're not going to sway anyone.

Religion(all forms) in my humble opinion is nothing more than the product of a mere primitive human mind trying desperately to justify an existence which is without meaning or purpose. Religion is a human invention based on corruption and power, and nothing more than a dick measuring legacy carried down through the generations, designed to "explain" what human beings do not know and comfort us and allow us to feel comfortable in our own arrogance and ignorance.

Belief in religion on such a level displayed by some people denotes an unhealthy obsession with false ideals. I do not disbelieve in religion because I "do not want to", I disbelieve because I think it's a bunch of bullshit and I'm not going to become another mindless drone. If religion has assisted you in becoming a better person or helped you through trying times, good for you. Don't try to push it on other people however who are impervious to circular "logic".

Why do some religious people feel the need to utilize the bible as an absoloute source of information and guidance? What kind of a world do we live in when grown ass adults think there's a man in the sky looking down on everybody at all times who cares if you masturbate or fufill your biological roles and has a list of 10 things he never ever wants you to do and if you do any of these things you will be sent to a place of eternal damnation where you will burn and be tortured for all time, BUT HE LOVES YOU!(borrowed from George Carlin). It makes me question the intelligence of humanity and forces me to wonder if some people are just plain out of their fucking minds.

Religion is good in small doses but COME ON, don't saturate every aspect of your life with it. That's no way to live. I don't know about you but I want to live a nice full life doing everything I want to do and having fun every chance I get then dying nice and happy than always being reserve and following a list of rules strictly. But hey if that appeals to you, go right ahead.

this is all nice and fun, but what don't you people get about the bit where i'm LOOKING FOR SEEKERS? i don't want you in here if you're not looking for God. if you're talking to me, you should be looking for an excuse TO believe, not and excuse not to.
I already looked.

I already spoke to people who are much more qualified to find reasons to believe than you. I've already searched my "soul" (if such a thing exists) and asked the person who really matters most in such personal decisions, myself, and really, you're not going to tell anyone anything they don't already know. You just started this as an excuse to dismiss atheists and non-believers as unwilling to believe the truths you find obvious and reinforce your own personal belief structure by putting down others. You are really no better than a playground bully who pushes around the weaker kids to compensate for his own insecurities and gain acceptance with the popualr group.

Is it possible that you are questioning and think that by trying to woo us to your cause, you will regain the faith that has been slowly slipping away from you?


And isn't it sad that I'm probably a more insightful drunk than I am sober?

and i believe both that divorce is wrong, except in cases of marital unfaithfulness,
What about abuse?

Is a wife supposed to accept a beating as a marital vow?

Oh, I forgot, women are property, right?

What about abuse?

Is a wife supposed to accept a beating as a marital vow?

Oh, I forgot, women are property, right?
i'm not sure where you got those ideas from...

i'm not sure where you got those ideas from...

Hmm, let me think about that one for a second...hmm...what about THE BIBLE.

for example, most of the writings about muhamud just tell what he did and said, and none of it is particularly miraculous or divinely inspired or anything, he just says what he has to say, and lets you believe it or not. Jesus, on the other hand, it does just write about what He said and did, but He backs it up with miracles, healings, revelations, etc. this is, of course, only if u believe the Bible to be true. i'd like to note that when asked to perform a miracle, muhamud actually refused.

On last point (in fairness to Mohammed), so did Jesus:

"The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied "When evening comes, you will say 'it will be fair weather, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it save for the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away." (Matt. 16: 1-4)

i'm not sure where you got those ideas from...
Your holy book.

Try looing at the old testament and tell me that it doesn't claim women are propety, even if it doesn't spell it out diresctly.

Not to forget that you said that divorce should only be an option in the case of infidelity, which implies that abuse is not sufficient grounds for divorce. Since women are more often the abused in a relationship, this more often than not means that it is women who are stuck being wailed on day in day out because you will not allow divorces unless the husband or wife is out banging some other woman or man.

You yourself might as well say that it's the duty of a wife.

I also notice that you've ignored all my other posts entirely... whatever, I'm off to bed. Have fun with your ignorance.

Your holy book.

Try looing at the old testament and tell me that it doesn't claim women are propety, even if it doesn't spell it out diresctly.

Not to forget that you said that divorce should only be an option in the case of infidelity, which implies that abuse is not sufficient grounds for divorce. Since women are more often the abused in a relationship, this more often than not means that it is women who are stuck being wailed on day in day out because you will not allow divorces unless the husband or wife is out banging some other woman or man.

You yourself might as well say that it's the duty of a wife.

I also notice that you've ignored all my other posts entirely... whatever, I'm off to bed. Have fun with your ignorance.
abuse would be infidelity. show me the verse, if you please.

On last point (in fairness to Mohammed), so did Jesus:

"The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking him to show them a sign from heaven. He replied "When evening comes, you will say 'it will be fair weather, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous sign, but none will be given it save for the sign of Jonah." Jesus then left them and went away." (Matt. 16: 1-4)
true, sorry, i should have mentioned that. but He didn't fail to produce miracles entirely, and many times He was asked to and consented.

abuse would be infidelity. show me the verse, if you please.
How is abuse infidelity?

And if you want to see one example of women being treated as property, then look at the 10 commandments, wives are grouped in with property such as cattle when it comes to coveting. Not to mention that it is permissable to sell your daughters...

If you want verses and many many more examples, look here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/ofe_bibl.htm

Your holy book.

Try looing at the old testament and tell me that it doesn't claim women are propety, even if it doesn't spell it out diresctly.

.

Nah, if you want to convince us that your point is true, you can do the long boring work of finding the verses. Otherwise I beg to differ.

Nah, if you want to convince us that your point is true, you can do the long boring work of finding the verses. Otherwise I beg to differ.
Yeah, look at my last post, I linked a website that has done all the research for us, way to read all the posts before posting.

I have a question. I am an atheist, and for a good reason - the idea of an all-powerful being is absurd to me, and anyone who cannot see how the idea of religion came about is less than intelligent.

Anyway, my question:

There is no scientific proof for God, but lots against Him. How can you claim that He exists when there is so much evidence against His existance?

If your answer is "Don't question God, you must simply believe", then don't bother writing it. I'm fed up with people giving that excuse when I present them with evidence against what they are saying. Oh, and "God is playing tricks with you!" is also not a good enough answer - as in "God is playing tricks with you! The reason He created people who don't believe in Him is so that he could test YOUR faith!"

i've noticed that most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, theyjust don't want to believe. one guy i talked to spent forever stressing about why he couldn't believe until i finally got him to admit that he just didn't wanna believe, cuz he didn't wanna stop having sex. so this is for people who actually wanna believe, but have questions. if u just don't wanna believe, or just wanna make my life miserable, please don't. God bless.

You must have a small circle of acquaintances or only meet non-believers without the ability to think reasonably and logically.Faith in a deity is a matter of choice with no proof.That is not for me.

this is all nice and fun, but what don't you people get about the bit where i'm LOOKING FOR SEEKERS? i don't want you in here if you're not looking for God. if you're talking to me, you should be looking for an excuse TO believe, not and excuse not to.

"looking for an excuse to believe"

Okay, I get it now. On a completely unrelated note...

I'm looking for people who WANT to give me free money. You must feel a need in your life to send me money orders. Stay away if you're just looking to apply critical reasoning, or if you just want to ask questions about why you should give me your earnings. If you're talking to me, you should be looking for rationalizations for buying me a car, not rational reasons not to.

http://www.soultravel.nu/2003/030918-human-brain/index.shtml
Just thought I'd add this fascinating link, it doesn't really work to support either side of the argument, but it does provide a possible explanation of where "faith-induced euphoria" or "feeling God" comes from.

"looking for an excuse to believe"

Okay, I get it now. On a completely unrelated note...

I'm looking for people who WANT to give me free money. You must feel a need in your life to send me money orders. Stay away if you're just looking to apply critical reasoning, or if you just want to ask questions about why you should give me your earnings. If you're talking to me, you should be looking for rationalizations for buying me a car, not rational reasons not to.
How much money do you want? I feel the need to give you all my money without question because I am a sheep.

I feel that I must blindly follow Saint Curie, as Squirrel Nuts' logic is unescapable.

You seem to base your beliefs that "most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, they just don't want to believe" on one example. I've gone to church in the past, and decided that I didn't agree with the teachings. I don't believe in God for that reason. The church was saying, basically, that my life was NOT my choice, but God's. I have no power over my life, and that everything I do is determined by God. That offended me, and I never went back.

Religion is a matter of choice, and if a person doesn't want to believe, you shouldn't try to convince them. Especially if they ask / tell you not to.

There is no scientific proof for God, but lots against Him. How can you claim that He exists when there is so much evidence against His existance?


can anyone point me to evidence that proves that God doesn't exist? While
i'll freely admit that it's tricky to find proof that God is real...i'd be very surprised if you could prove there is no God

I can prove god doesn't exist... There is some evidence already posted further up.

But the burden of proof is on those who claim he exist. You know, if Alexandria could POST THE EVIDENCE we might actually beleive you.

You seem to base your beliefs that "most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, they just don't want to believe" on one example. I've gone to church in the past, and decided that I didn't agree with the teachings. I don't believe in God for that reason. The church was saying, basically, that my life was NOT my choice, but God's. I have no power over my life, and that everything I do is determined by God. That offended me, and I never went back.

All of us non faith havin' folk sit around and jack it all day 'cause we ain't got no sense inside our heads. We just won't listen to reason or logic. We ain't never thought about why we ain't religious cause we just ain't and that's that.

so I do believe in God, but I'm not gonna try to prove it to anybody, because to be honest, I don't think it's my place to. I think you'll probably get much better answers to your questions if you can chat to someone you actually know about their beliefs, rather than randoms on a message board. Also, there's probably less chance of general abuse if you're talking to a real person.

But seriously...I looked through most of the thread so far, and didn't find any evidence suggesting that God doesn't exist. like I said, i'd be very surprised if you could show me any, rather than just saying that there's loads...

http://www.soultravel.nu/2003/03091...ain/index.shtml
Just thought I'd add this fascinating link, it doesn't really work to support either side of the argument, but it does provide a possible explanation of where "faith-induced euphoria" or "feeling God" comes from.

I have scanned this thread and noted that there are some claiming that they have found theur salvation in following one set of beliefs or another, whats more they are convinced that their way is a true path to a God. My confusion is born from seeing that each person interprets this way individually and talks about subjects outside the exact scripture held in the bible. Therefore, if I followed a christian route to a God, surely I cannot find it as I have no way of reaching the same interpretations as you are. If I am allowed to follow my interpretation of the bible, then I will be allowed to have my own - progressive maybe - opinions about subjects not specifically identified in the bible?

If anyone has any ideas I would be really interested as I have been showing this thread to a friend who is a senior ranking Catholic Priest and he disagrees with some of the interpretations of scripture that some of the devout christians have spoken of...

Ok, WTF? A 20-minute gap and then a double-post?!

Just for the record, whenever some drunk naff comes on here, bellows out a few lines, and posts the site "religioustolerance.org". You are under no obligation to go to it just because they tell you to. I've been to the site before. It's just a bunch of people spewing hate and lies about monotheistic religions.

It's not about religious tolerance, it really should be called "intolerantofreligion.org"

Just for the record, whenever some drunk naff comes on here, bellows out a few lines, and posts the site "religioustolerance.org". You are under no obligation to go to it just because they tell you to. I've been to the site before. It's just a bunch of people spewing hate and lies about monotheistic religions.

It is? I don't remember anything like that.

Am I the only one utterly offended that the poster assumes the non religious have no reason forbeing sucha way? I know I have some damn good reasons. Just as personal and subjective as Alexandria's, but I guess they don't matter since I'm a heathen.

Am I the only one utterly offended that the poster assumes the non religious have no reason forbeing sucha way? I know I have some damn good reasons. Just as personal and subjective as Alexandria's, but I guess they don't matter since I'm a heathen.

No.

No.
Awesome. Just checking since most people have simply argued with Alexandria rather than discuss their offense.

I suppose I have tried to keep to the idea of asking questions, even though I am not an atheist. I am not really offended by the attitude, rather pucceled by the total lack of empathy for other peoples thoughts and ideas. I am not sure I would like to be that sure of anything in my life.

I suppose I have tried to keep to the idea of asking questions, even though I am not an atheist. I am not really offended by the attitude, rather pucceled by the total lack of empathy for other peoples thoughts and ideas. I am not sure I would like to be that sure of anything in my life.

And, of course, the REAL irony is that the original poster, is behaving in a very un-christian fashion.

And, of course, the REAL irony is that the original poster, is behaving in a very un-christian fashion.
Haha that's what I say! And I'm not even a christian! I should throw my mum on here to debate Alexandria. That would be a hoot (especially since they called my mum a cult nut. she'd shover her size 8 cult foot up Alexandria's biblical ass).

Haha that's what I say! And I'm not even a christian! I should throw my mum on here to debate Alexandria. That would be a hoot (especially since they called my mum a cult nut. she'd shover her size 8 cult foot up Alexandria's biblical ass).

I am actually an Atheist... but I have far more respect for those I consider 'Christians' (those who actually follow the life of Christ), than those I consider 'christians' (those who believe that attending church once a week 'makes them christian').

I am actually an Atheist... but I have far more respect for those I consider 'Christians' (those who actually follow the life of Christ), than those I consider 'christians' (those who believe that attending church once a week 'makes them christian').
I feel the same way. I can't stand the latter group of "christians". If you follow the teachings of Jesus you probably aren't going to piss me off. Jesus had some good ideas and more of these christians should learn from him.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB310.html

beetle argument presented, then refuted!

If nothing else, this entire thread has been pretty humorous :) . Personally I just cannot understand how people can be soooo sure one way or the other. Both of my parents are religious, though i have an incredible respect for their faith mainly because it is a private faith. They have never forced it on me, or expected me to believe one way or the other, and as a result I have come to my own conclusions. I agree with a lot of the opposition, and as I myself am agnostic (probably leaning toward athiest), I have to ask:

How can YOU be so sure as well that there is no higher power?

and to the religious zealots:

How can YOU be so sure that there is (excluding Biblical references please)?

The funny part is that this thread is seemingly endless and yet there really has been no concrete evidence from either side- just philosophical bantering (which is what im doing too.. yay!). Whoever earlier spoke of how religion should not be all-encompassing in your life.. that was well put.

My experiences are unique to me, and may not work for anyone else, but I really believe in self-determination. I cannot say for sure whether there is an afterlife or not, though my best guess is that our nerve circuits just stop working and we cease to exist (impossible to comprehend for us though, since (at least for now) we DO exist). On that line of thinking, rather than dwell on what we *need* to do to get to heaven or whatever, we should live our life to the fullest and enjoy it. One of the most common misconceptions about athiests/agnostics is that we're all the depressed types, when the truth is that we worry much less about death or obligations to a higher power that may or may not exist.

I'm still young and I'm sure ill change my mind- and while others may perceive this as a weakness, I really feel that it is a strength. I can really respect anyone who reevaluates all of their experiences, knowledge, etc and has the courage to change their mind . It shocks me how people can go from birth to death without questioning the beliefs that they were spoonfed (whether it be atheism or religion).

I really didnt mean for this to be so long :( sorry- just a last question for all of you ardent athiests out there (who, mind you, i probably agree with on most conditions): Are you sure that you arent at times just as bad (read: annoying) as an unrelenting religious person like alexandra?

-Ashley

Just for the record, whenever some drunk naff comes on here, bellows out a few lines, and posts the site "religioustolerance.org". You are under no obligation to go to it just because they tell you to. I've been to the site before. It's just a bunch of people spewing hate and lies about monotheistic religions.

It's not about religious tolerance, it really should be called "intolerantofreligion.org"
No, it really isn't. It shows a fair account of both sides of an issue.

And aside from that, all the page I thre up did was point out where women are considered inferior in the old testament of the bible, if you look to the bottom, there are some verses that show women as equals... the reason there aren't as many is that well, women weren't portrayed as equal in the old testament.

Religion(all forms) in my humble opinion is nothing more than the product of a mere primitive human mind trying desperately to justify an existence which is without meaning or purpose. Religion is a human invention based on corruption and power, and nothing more than a dick measuring legacy carried down through the generations, designed to "explain" what human beings do not know and comfort us and allow us to feel comfortable in our own arrogance and ignorance.

Belief in religion on such a level displayed by some people denotes an unhealthy obsession with false ideals. I do not disbelieve in religion because I "do not want to", I disbelieve because I think it's a bunch of bullshit and I'm not going to become another mindless drone. If religion has assisted you in becoming a better person or helped you through trying times, good for you. Don't try to push it on other people however who are impervious to circular "logic".

Why do some religious people feel the need to utilize the bible as an absoloute source of information and guidance? What kind of a world do we live in when grown ass adults think there's a man in the sky looking down on everybody at all times who cares if you masturbate or fufill your biological roles and has a list of 10 things he never ever wants you to do and if you do any of these things you will be sent to a place of eternal damnation where you will burn and be tortured for all time, BUT HE LOVES YOU!(borrowed from George Carlin). It makes me question the intelligence of humanity and forces me to wonder if some people are just plain out of their fucking minds.

Religion is good in small doses but COME ON, don't saturate every aspect of your life with it. That's no way to live. I don't know about you but I want to live a nice full life doing everything I want to do and having fun every chance I get then dying nice and happy than always being reserve and following a list of rules strictly. But hey if that appeals to you, go right ahead.

Yaay, you make sense. Excellent. :D

Alexandria: WHY do you believe in God? Just answer that question, and forget all the biblical drivel, but tell me why YOU believe in God.

for example, most of the writings about muhamud just tell what he did and said, and none of it is particularly miraculous or divinely inspired or anything, he just says what he has to say, and lets you believe it or not. Jesus, on the other hand, it does just write about what He said and did, but He backs it up with miracles, healings, revelations, etc. this is, of course, only if u believe the Bible to be true. i'd like to note that when asked to perform a miracle, muhamud actually refused.
That shows you know nothing of the teachings of Mohammed. He did accomplish miracles if you had bothered to read the book. It's just that the miracles he does, just like those that Jesus does by the way, are explainable in a non-religious way.

Like the wine at Cana. There have been many explanations put forth that didn't involve the intervention of the divine. It's just that a believer will not look at them because he wants to believe. The same can be (and is) applied to the miracles that Mohammed did.

I'm done with this thread as you failed to convince me that I should venture deeper in your religion instead of another. I will continue my path to enlightenment elsewhere.

Yeah, look at my last post, I linked a website that has done all the research for us, way to read all the posts before posting.

I did read all the posts, actually. If you look you will see that we posted at the exact same time (2.22p.m.) so how was I meant to read your post? But thankyou for putting the link up.

And, of course, the REAL irony is that the original poster, is behaving in a very un-christian fashion.
Statisticaly (in life) do ya really expect any different (not saying there are more (there may be) but the un-cristian actors tend to be the loudist

I don't believe because the bible is a 2000 year old fairy tale full of fallacies and refuses to update its flaws with the coming of modern science. My question is which one is more logical? Fairy tale or modern science.

www.normalbobsmith.com

p.s. god is fake and jesus was a crazy man.

I don't believe because the bible is a 2000 year old fairy tale full of fallacies and refuses to update its flaws with the coming of modern science. My question is which one is more logical? Fairy tale or modern science.

www.normalbobsmith.com

p.s. god is fake and jesus was a crazy man.
While I also do not believe in them you seem bent on trying to insult thoes that do, please dont.

ya, you can, but i must add that anyone who truelly believes will want to stop having sex. if u don't truelly believe, then u may as well not believe at all.

Probably been said, but does that mean that religion advocates extinction through the end of reproduction?

all things that come into being have a cause, this has been proven.

Where has this been proven?

...and that cause must be uncaused, meaning it always was, is, and shall be.

Are you smoking communion?

Probably been said, but does that mean that religion advocates extinction through the end of reproduction?
i mean pre-marital or adulterous sex, of course. God is all for sex inside marriage...someone else seems to think that we think God thinks sex is only for procreation, too. it's not, God created it both to procreate and to be pleasurable...

I have just finished reading the whole of this (it took me a while thats for sure.) And there are a few things that i would like to say.

Both my parents are Christians, my father is even a minister, (both of them are protestant btw) I have been brought up in a Christian family , but my sister and most my friends are atheist. Up until recently i would have said i was a Christian straight away if anyone had asked me. But now looking back on my life im not so sure.
The last few summers i have gone to week long christian camps, and the people i have met there, the stories of their lives and the feelings i get when i'm there make me believe that Christianity is more "just stories" as some people say.
Now i would say that i am becoming a Christian, i dont expect it to be something that happens overnight. I'm constantly learning and i think i will be learning for the rest of my life. Alexandria i think the main cause of many of the arguements on here is your lack of willingness to listen to other peoples opinions, you have to remember that you are learning constantly, and that everyone has a right to there own opinion

Sorry this is so long, i think i said everything i wanted to, i'm not sure.

I have just finished reading the whole of this (it took me a while thats for sure.) And there are a few things that i would like to say.

Both my parents are Christians, my father is even a minister, (both of them are protestant btw) I have been brought up in a Christian family , but my sister and most my friends are atheist. Up until recently i would have said i was a Christian straight away if anyone had asked me. But now looking back on my life im not so sure.
The last few summers i have gone to week long christian camps, and the people i have met there, the stories of their lives and the feelings i get when i'm there make me believe that Christianity is more "just stories" as some people say.
Now i would say that i am becoming a Christian, i dont expect it to be something that happens overnight. I'm constantly learning and i think i will be learning for the rest of my life. Alexandria i think the main cause of many of the arguements on here is your lack of willingness to listen to other peoples opinions, you have to remember that you are learning constantly, and that everyone has a right to there own opinion

Sorry this is so long, i think i said everything i wanted to, i'm not sure.

Excellent post.

Where has this been proven?



Are you smoking communion?
Lol I like that quote :p very inventive (why do you think they need all that insence ;) )

If nothing else, this entire thread has been pretty humorous :) . Personally I just cannot understand how people can be soooo sure one way or the other. Both of my parents are religious, though i have an incredible respect for their faith mainly because it is a private faith. They have never forced it on me, or expected me to believe one way or the other, and as a result I have come to my own conclusions. I agree with a lot of the opposition, and as I myself am agnostic (probably leaning toward athiest), I have to ask:

How can YOU be so sure as well that there is no higher power?

and to the religious zealots:

How can YOU be so sure that there is (excluding Biblical references please)?

The funny part is that this thread is seemingly endless and yet there really has been no concrete evidence from either side- just philosophical bantering (which is what im doing too.. yay!). Whoever earlier spoke of how religion should not be all-encompassing in your life.. that was well put.

My experiences are unique to me, and may not work for anyone else, but I really believe in self-determination. I cannot say for sure whether there is an afterlife or not, though my best guess is that our nerve circuits just stop working and we cease to exist (impossible to comprehend for us though, since (at least for now) we DO exist). On that line of thinking, rather than dwell on what we *need* to do to get to heaven or whatever, we should live our life to the fullest and enjoy it. One of the most common misconceptions about athiests/agnostics is that we're all the depressed types, when the truth is that we worry much less about death or obligations to a higher power that may or may not exist.

I'm still young and I'm sure ill change my mind- and while others may perceive this as a weakness, I really feel that it is a strength. I can really respect anyone who reevaluates all of their experiences, knowledge, etc and has the courage to change their mind . It shocks me how people can go from birth to death without questioning the beliefs that they were spoonfed (whether it be atheism or religion).

I really didnt mean for this to be so long :( sorry- just a last question for all of you ardent athiests out there (who, mind you, i probably agree with on most conditions): Are you sure that you arent at times just as bad (read: annoying) as an unrelenting religious person like alexandra?

-Ashley

According to what you say, you seem to be having the lifestyle of an atheist, god doesn't seem to play a role in your live.

Now to answer your question.

1) I don't need a god to explain anything in life to me. Science and logic do a fine job combined with a portion of the experiences of many humans that lived before me. This is no proof that god doesn't exist (how can you prove that anything that is 'supernatural' doesn't exist?), but it just shows that if i believed he exists, he would be an unneeded variable in my life. You don't assume the invisible pink unicorn exists simply because you can't disprove his existance. The same goes for the infinite and uncountable set possible supernatural entities.

2) Accepting a meaningful god - a god that has at one point 'shown' himself to mankind; it would be impossible to say anything about meaningless gods and you certainly can't build a religion around them - would raise a few questions that would make matters more complex. I don't like to make things complex when there is no need for it.

3) An important one. From my point of view, i can see how religion once started as a means of understanding AND controlling powerful and mysterious forces in nature. After that, i can explain for myself how more 'advanced' religions came into existance (first religions with things like fertility gods; later you would end up with latin/greek-like gods or with just one god to explain it all).

If god is omnipotent, why doesn't he just make Satan go away?

How do you explain the multitude of religions? Based on the Christian faith, and the widely accepted, "Lust is a sin," does this mean that the Greeks all went to hell because they had large gay male orgies?

Does the bible not contradict itself?

Is the meaning of life really 42?

If god evolves into more advance religions, this proves evolution.

By non-euclidian gemoetry, you cannot prove something exist based on assumption. In other words, I cannot prove that 1 will equal 3 without any postulents to base off my information. Since we can safely say that god cannot be a postulent, we can also state that god is improvable. Therefore, god cannot exist. For an analogy of this principle, I cannot state that an angle inscribed in a circle is equal to anything without any basic postulents. Since there are no postulents that prove god, and god has never been accepted as a postulent due to logic issues, god cannot exist.

All I can say is:

People are inherently afraid of what they don't know. If we can't control it, it becomes a threat to our well being. If we can't control it, and don't understand it, we fear it. What we can't understand and control we idolize. Therefore religion was born, as what unknown do we try to control, try to understand, and just end up fearing more than death?

Some peope say, "If there is no god, then how come nearly every culture in the world has a religion that is basically the same in theory?" This is answered by pointing out that we are all human, and we tend to do a lot of thinking. (At least some of us used to). We can't accept that our lives are truely meaningless, that we are just organisms that will die and that will be the end. No, we have to invent a happy place where our eternal souls can live on forever. We fear death (I'm talking about the majority here, I don't include sociopaths or people who have absolute faith in eternal reward) and that fear is the complete basis for religion.

I will say this. Humans created religion to explain the unexplainable. When a person prays, his or her brain acts different. Different parts of the brain light up.

ya, you can, but i must add that anyone who truelly believes will want to stop having sex. if u don't truelly believe, then u may as well not believe at all.

What happened to 'Go forth and multiply'? Do you think that was talking about doing math?

I would have to say that your friend who claims to be an atheist because he wants to keep having sex is no more of a moron than you are for believing that the two are mutually exclusive. Where do you think you came from, found by wolves under a rock?

God made the universe. He could "be" the universe as well, in a sense, but i don't really know, and i think it's irrelevant


IRRELEVANT??? Then what in the sam hell are you doing on here acting as if you can convince anyone to believe? What are your credentials for consideration? Are you some sort of self-proclaimed expert of the Christian faith. Right now I am teetering on the possibility of giving up my faith based on the FACT that you are an idiot. As yet, there has been no other facts established here. Would my atheist friends agree?

I don't believe mainly because I hate many of the principles of religions, in particular Christianity.


Which principles might that be? Treat each other as you would be treated? Don't kill your neighbor. Don't steal your neighbors wife or possessions? Honor your parents?

Yep, I can see why you might object to those.

That is about the stupidest atheistic statement I have ever heard. I can buy the "No evidence... No belief" argument, but your's seems to be just plain ignorance.

that's true, but the things they differ on aren't really going to affect whether or not they get to heaven. personally, i think many things about the catholic church are screwed up, mostly cuz they don't make sense and have no basis in scripture. mormons and jehova's witnesses are essentially the same thing, and they're a cult. their main distinguishing belief is that u must earn your way into heaven, but the Bible says that's impossible, and that grace is a gift, not a reward. i don't like to call myself protestant, but their hasn't been anything taught by them yet (that i know about) that conflicts with scripture, so i guess i am.

So, which form of Protestant are you...there are at least 6 that I can name right off the top of my head... and none of them agree as to which interpretation of scripture is correct, so don't lump them all together either.

And, for a so-called expert, you sure don't know very much.

How about "Fags are bad," or "No contraception?"

ture, faith is described by the Bible as "trusing what we cannot see", but that doesn't make it scientific. it's scientific because there is evidence supporting what we believe. the same way evolution is scientific because there is supporting evidence. much of darwin's theory requires a certain degree of faith, admittedly more than faith in the Bible.


WHAT??? You're making this up as you go, aren't you? What scientific evidence do you have with regards to the Bible being accurate? Darwin's Theory is just that... a theory... which means it carries more weight than if it was simply Darwin's Hypothesis. A THEORY has withstood the test of time and shows that it has not been disproven AS OF YET. Only when it has been found never to be in error, will it gain status and become Darwin's LAW.

I am guessing that you are about 13 years old and not really good with the books in school. That is Castrated Monkey's Theory. See the discussion above for the difference between that and Castrated Monkey's Hypothesis.

i'm sorry, what concrete evidence? the Bible's claims are continually supported by archeology, mainly, but many other fields of study as well. not only are you missing much in the way of fossils and ways to do things to support evolution, but there are a couple species, a beetle in particular, that could not exist if darwinian theory was true.

Oh? And why is that? Because YOU say so? But you are a moron... that fact has been established beyond a shadow of a doubt since the beginning of this thread. Give one fact that supports the Bible. Give one fact that disproves Darwin. ONE... you can't do it. Your points are baseless and your words have no meaning. You are what is wrong with religion. Too many idiots at the temple. It is tedious and boring watching the sheep wander about the hillside waiting for the sheers. Do yourself a favor... go get your Sears catalog and go back to jerking off before your brain melts from trying to grasp high thought functions.

i'm sorry, but i don't have time to explain everything for you...all the best and most relevant evidence can be found in "The Case For Faith" by Lee Strobel. it's a very good book, and it's also completely unbiased, as the author himself was once an atheist.

What was this thread about.... uh... oh, yes, I remember...

You asked that people with questions about religion ask you, so that you could explain and clarify and bring them to faith. And now you DON'T HAVE TIME TO EXPLAIN EVERYTHING????

How about this... You don't have the knowledge to explain ANYTHING. You, as I have stated several times in as many ways... are an idiot. You need to shut up and let us think that you are stupid, rather than opening your mouth and proving it.

I will undoubtedly hate myself for responding to this, but for some reason I can't resist. The debate you're having is the essence of faith in itself. It would be easy to believe in a God that walks in front of us everday performing miracles. Too easy in fact. Faith is believing in what you cannot see. Scientific minds have an especially hard time with this. You look around at the earth, and instead of seeing something created by an all-seeing entity, you see something that can be scientifically explained. My main argument with this is, it's defies one of the basic laws of science. The big bang theory says that all that we see was created from a tiny piece of dust. One of the major laws in science is that matter cannot be created or destroyed it can only change forms. Therefore, if you believe in even the basic laws of science, you talk yourself into a corner with that theory.

I believe in God. I believe that he has set up rules by which we should live. What I have trouble with is religion. Too many religions have built their own rules that are self-serving and hypocritical. And too many religious people are the same way.

But I digress. The fact of the matter is, you either believe or you don't. There is no argument that will change your mind. It's something that only you can do. I wish that more people would search inside themselves for the proof that He exists, but most don't even know what they would be looking for, making it impossible to find the answers.

You can continue discussing this until the sun burns out and neither side will ever have proof. Just remember one thing, whichever side you're on, your perspective is the only "fact" that you have to go on, and if it's enough for you, then it's enough. Just don't start attacking each other as people, because it's pointless and silly. We all have to live here together, right?

That's a really tough question, I guess since I jumped in there I should be prepared to answer it.

I talk to Jesus, pray to God, take communion, study the Bible, sing praise songs et cetera. I'm not saying this as boasting... if you knew me you would know I'm a Christian who has been saved from a great deal of sin.

When I do these things, it feels "real." I feel connected to God. When I take communion, I feel indebted to Jesus for being punished for me even though He was innocent. When I sing praise music, I can feel God cleaning me, it often brings tears to my eye. When I study the Bible, it gratifies me when all the pieces fit together and a passage begins to make sense. Where others say they see falsehood in the Bible, I see logic.

How can I specify why I believe when I don't remember the switch from unbelief to belief? For some it is gradual, for others it is sudden. I suppose for somone who suddenly believes in Christianity, they could point out what it is that made them believe. As for me, I experienced the "conversion moments" after I already believed I was a Christian, so I can't point to any one point in my life that makes me spiritually who I am now.

I guess when it comes down to it you have to know that you know that you know.

Well stated. Well thought out. It is simply this, the leap of faith requires you to move from non-believer to believer WITHOUT evidence beyond a doubt, or the leap is meaningless. I do not push my faith on others. Believe as you wish. Religion is personal. Believe or not... as you wish... and I will do the same. Face the consequences of your choices and I will face mine. If I am correct, great. If you are correct, and there is no God... then neither of us will know. NDTBs think this way... and we believe in evolution as the manner in which God created. The two are married.

I have a question for atheists: Where is the Snowden of yesteryear?

this is all nice and fun, but what don't you people get about the bit where i'm LOOKING FOR SEEKERS? i don't want you in here if you're not looking for God. if you're talking to me, you should be looking for an excuse TO believe, not and excuse not to.


You have no business looking for anyone...

I believe that you have single handedly distroyed my belief in Christians. Congratulations! Take one mark off of your gun handle, there Skippy. I can't imagine why anyone would want to be associated with you and your kind. You are admittedly lazy. Evidence proves you are poorly read, ignorant, self-centered and lack any form of actual knowledge on the subject you have brought to the question. Of course, it is probably because you are 13 and just don't know any better.

I have a question. I am an atheist, and for a good reason - the idea of an all-powerful being is absurd to me, and anyone who cannot see how the idea of religion came about is less than intelligent.

Anyway, my question:

There is no scientific proof for God, but lots against Him. How can you claim that He exists when there is so much evidence against His existance?

If your answer is "Don't question God, you must simply believe", then don't bother writing it. I'm fed up with people giving that excuse when I present them with evidence against what they are saying. Oh, and "God is playing tricks with you!" is also not a good enough answer - as in "God is playing tricks with you! The reason He created people who don't believe in Him is so that he could test YOUR faith!"

What evidence are you refering to that proves God doesn't exist? The lack of evidence showing existance is not the same as evidence of non-existance. For instance, I cannot show you evidence that the Super Sonic Transport exists. (We all know that it does) but that is not the same thing as you being able to show me evidence that the SST doesn't really exist.

How about "Fags are bad," or "No contraception?"

You don't need a religion to tell you that those are correct.

Fags are bad.. yep, UNNATURAL.

No contraception.. equally bad... not enough feeling with a rubber.

I find it hard to believe in something that has provided no evidence of its existence. I feel that if a god (or many gods and/or goddesses) exist(s), then I don't see why he/she/they haven't provided any proof of his/her/their existence. Logically speaking, if these gods are as powerful as various religions believe them to be, wouldn't these gods be able to very easily prove their existence? Or simply make everyone believe in them and worship them?

So, the obvious counterargument used against atheists is "Fine, where's your proof that God doesn't exist?" And, I'm not gonna lie, we don't have any. This is why I don't deny the possibility that a god exists. Really, I don't know either way. I'm not like some atheists I've seen, the complete anti-religion nutcases, because even if higher powers don't exist, there HAVE been good things to come from religion. There've been many bad things, too, but it'd be unfair to not point out the good.

Use your belief for good and don't force it on me, and you'll have my respect.

But I think they're wrong.
Well, on to more extreme examples.

"Stone the raped people."
"If you don't listen to God, he'll kill your firstborn."

Note: These are NOT strawmen. Those are actual relgious views.

Which principles might that be? Treat each other as you would be treated? Don't kill your neighbor. Don't steal your neighbors wife or possessions? Honor your parents?

Yep, I can see why you might object to those.

That is about the stupidest atheistic statement I have ever heard. I can buy the "No evidence... No belief" argument, but your's seems to be just plain ignorance.

Straw Man. The original poster said they disagreed with some principles... you then listed asome of your own devising, and fought against those.

A curious approach.

It does lead me to wonder if you have a 'better' reason to believe/disbelieve.

You don't need a religion to tell you that those are correct.

Fags are bad.. yep, UNNATURAL.

No contraception.. equally bad... not enough feeling with a rubber.

And, there was me thinking all you were going to have to back it up was hollow rhetoric...

Well when a religion starts several crusades KILLING THOUSANDS(parent's of today's millions) and advertises themselves even though they already have 56 Billion members, it's hard to be ok with it. Anyway, I think religion is beginning to collapse and eventually the world will be atheist, once everyone realizes that there really is no superguy who can make anything happen.

*snip*
The big bang theory says that all that we see was created from a tiny piece of dust. One of the major laws in science is that matter cannot be created or destroyed it can only change forms. Therefore, if you believe in even the basic laws of science, you talk yourself into a corner with that theory.
*snip*


The Big Bang theory has nothing to do with dust! After scientists observed everything in the universe moving (the red/blue shifts of light) mostly from a certain point, the only real conclusion to draw from that was that, if you went back far enough in time, you would see the stuff converging on a point, and that would be where all the energy in the universe originated (I say energy because einstein proved that all matter was essentially energy, as per E=MC^2). This was further proved by finding the background microwave radiation left over from the intense heat and stuff resulting from the big bang (ever heard of CME? Sounds familiar). I'm sure I could provide sources, but I'm too lazy right now.

P.S. there's a whole bunch of hypothses (they're labeled as theories, but they're really hypotheses) that suggest that our universe was created when two other universes collided when traveling on a 4th dimension, or that every black hole forms a new universe, or that our universe IS a black hole, just with its singularity at the other end of our 4th dimension (time)- e.g. our universe was a singularity at the time of the Big Bang.

And as for the idea that you can't create matter, that holds true-- but we haven't very well observed much of the weird things that happen in the inherent hell of a big bang (although I hear they're doing research). Loads of things are possible.

On a side note, i believe that Led Zeppelin is God-- I have personal experiences that relate to them- for example, when they say that "the soul of a woman was created below", I see where they're coming from, since women are mean to me. Furthermore, when I'm jamming to their music, I can swear I can see them, even though all I've seen of them are crude photographic representations. From this, I now know that to get to heaven, I must be cremated on a windy day- "Your stairway [to heaven] lies on the whisperin winds". Also, I am encouraged not to pray (or cry)- "Cryin won't help you, prayin won't do you no good".
Do you see where this logic leads me?

I hope I made sense.

*bump*

i took more than 20 minutes typing that... don't want it to go unnoticed!

ya, you can, but i must add that anyone who truelly believes will want to stop having sex. if u don't truelly believe, then u may as well not believe at all.

So it's up to us godless heathens to keep the human race going?

As for Big Bang, so right. You can create antimatter, though... The most expensive item in the world tolling at 62 trillion dollars per gram. Collision of matter and antimatter results in pure energy of gamma rays and alpha rays... Even more powerful than God. The Big Bang may have resulted in a collision of antimatter and matter. Since that not all of the matter was destroyed, there must have been more matter than antimatter. Anyway....

Straw Man. The original poster said they disagreed with some principles... you then listed asome of your own devising, and fought against those.

A curious approach.

It does lead me to wonder if you have a 'better' reason to believe/disbelieve.

Since the original poster was asked repeatedly to name the principles that he disagreed with, and failed at every attempt to do so, I engaged in Reduxio Ad Absurdum (reducing to the absurd), a time honored and efficient manner to show that your opponent is completely full of shit.

As far as why I believe, I believe because in my heart and mind, it feels right... what I believe in... which differs greatly from this fundementalist stuff that the original poster seems to believe in (although, we have yet to get any meat and substance to his beliefs so I am not sure what he believes other than you should not have sex). I do not push my beliefs onto others. It would not be right if I did... which is part of my belief structure.

If you would like to know what I believe, I would be happy to tell you, or answer any questions that you may have. I will do so in a polite and informative manner. I will not discount your own beliefs, as I believe that you have every right to think what you will and believe what you will (including questioning the existance of God) without someone else beating you up for it. I will not attempt to 'convert' you. I will not belittle you... unless, of course, you engage in those activities with others... then I figure you are fair game.

As for Big Bang, so right. You can create antimatter, though... The most expensive item in the world tolling at 62 trillion dollars per gram. Collision of matter and antimatter results in pure energy of gamma rays and alpha rays... Even more powerful than God. The Big Bang may have resulted in a collision of antimatter and matter. Since that not all of the matter was destroyed, there must have been more matter than antimatter. Anyway....


Anything that has no weight and takes up no space, does not matter.

Can there every be more matter than antimatter? This is a Yin and Yang thing. Why is it that matter can neither be created or destroyed, and yet we can make antimatter for 62 trillion dollars per gram. Isn't that it costs that much to refine and collect?

The piece of dust refered to by the original poster comes from the idea that all the matter existed at a single, tiny point in space, and then exploded outward from that point. It was a very small piece of dust (relatively speaking)... it was just extremely dense... which seems to be a recurring theme on this thread.

Anything that has no weight and takes up no space, does not matter.

Can there every be more matter than antimatter? This is a Yin and Yang thing. Why is it that matter can neither be created or destroyed, and yet we can make antimatter for 62 trillion dollars per gram. Isn't that it costs that much to refine and collect?

The piece of dust refered to by the original poster comes from the idea that all the matter existed at a single, tiny point in space, and then exploded outward from that point. It was a very small piece of dust (relatively speaking)... it was just extremely dense... which seems to be a recurring theme on this thread.
Matter consists of both massive particles and energy. It is possible to form particles from energy, and they come in both matter and anti-matter pairs, there is a slight asymmetry though, for every million anti-matter particles, a million and one matter particles are formed through pair creation.

So really, anti-matter is made as well as matter, but one has to collect it and keep it from interacting with its corresponding matter particle, which would cause anihillation.

As for Big Bang, so right. You can create antimatter, though... The most expensive item in the world tolling at 62 trillion dollars per gram. Collision of matter and antimatter results in pure energy of gamma rays and alpha rays... Even more powerful than God. The Big Bang may have resulted in a collision of antimatter and matter. Since that not all of the matter was destroyed, there must have been more matter than antimatter. Anyway....
Uh.... what?

If I take an electron and a positron, all I'll have left is two gamma ray photons. No alpha radiation... just gamma rays. It happens in reverse as well

Here, I'll dig up a link about pair creation.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

i've noticed that most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, theyjust don't want to believe. one guy i talked to spent forever stressing about why he couldn't believe until i finally got him to admit that he just didn't wanna believe, cuz he didn't wanna stop having sex. so this is for people who actually wanna believe, but have questions. if u just don't wanna believe, or just wanna make my life miserable, please don't. God bless.

I dont understand the question you are asking? Do you just want us to ask you any questions? About what? God? Your religion? What is your religion anyway?

The only person who can forgive you for your sins is yourself, and I'm afraid you'll have to actually work hard to better yourself to gain that rather than just asking nicely for it. You have forge yourself into a better person because you are the ultimate force in your own creation. You will only see the world clearly when you worship no gods, because only then can you realise you are one.
The ecstasy of religious is the lazy tranquility of letting go of this reponsibility and giving up that power that can have over yourself. Feel free to let your life be bleached of all significance by that drug, but it's not for me.

Is the meaning of life really 42?

Yes! :D

We can shut down all the zillions of religion threads now, because we have 42. No arguing required. ;)



(I am not being serious.)

ya, you can, but i must add that anyone who truelly believes will want to stop having sex. if u don't truelly believe, then u may as well not believe at all.
Where does it say in the Bible that you shouldn't have sex? Are you talking about premarital sex, or just sex?

Or are you suggesting that we shouldn't procreate because everything is so ****ed up that it would be unfair on our offspring to bring them into the world?

I'm agnostic, but that doesn't mean I don't have faith or spirituality. My view of "God" is that everyone is a god or a small part of "God." Our souls or consciousness I suppose... I'm still working out the kinks in my idea, but it suits me much more than traditional thought. I just can't swallow the idea that we are children of God and that he loves us, yet he/she/it is willing to condemn anyone for not thinking the 'right way.' Many people's faiths are instilled in us through our parents, so we don't have a lot of say in our core beliefs. For example, I was born and raised Christian (Catholic) and I believed the doctrine unquestioningly for about 12 years. Had I been raised Buddhist or any other denomination I would have believed that instead. I guess that's why I don't believe in hell either. I'm not sure about heaven or afterlife, I'll think on that too.

So here are my questions...
1. Are my ideas condemning me to hell?
2. If #1 is yes, then why?
3. Will any faith save you or just a particular faith?
4. Why can't people have sex???
5. Why do you believe your faith instead of other ones?

Where does it say in the Bible that you shouldn't have sex? Are you talking about premarital sex, or just sex?

Or are you suggesting that we shouldn't procreate because everything is so ****ed up that it would be unfair on our offspring to bring them into the world?

It actually does say in the bible that God's perfect will is abstinence, which made little sense to me, considering that is the only way to procreate. It goes on to say that if you cannot remain chaste, then you should at least marry first. (I Corinthians 7)

As I said before, religion and faith are two different entities. I have faith, but no religion.

As for what beliefs are correct, who really knows. Belief in God, whatever name you give him, is all that I think is really important. Faith that He exists and is there for us is all that really matters to me. I think the different religions came about for one of two reasons: 1) so people who believed certain things to be true to get together and talk about why they're right or 2) because certain men decided that they were more important than everyone else and could write their own record of how things should be.

It's faith that matters, not religion.

It's faith that matters, not religion.

Ah. But faith in what?

That is the real question here. If I have faith that the New England Patriots are going to win the Super Bowl, is that sufficient? I suspect not.

It actually does say in the bible that God's perfect will is abstinence, which made little sense to me, considering that is the only way to procreate. It goes on to say that if you cannot remain chaste, then you should at least marry first. (I Corinthians 7)
That was Paul, and he was a nutjob. Sucks they take is word on everything more than what Jesus actually taught.

Since the original poster was asked repeatedly to name the principles that he disagreed with, and failed at every attempt to do so, I engaged in Reduxio Ad Absurdum (reducing to the absurd), a time honored and efficient manner to show that your opponent is completely full of shit.

As far as why I believe, I believe because in my heart and mind, it feels right... what I believe in... which differs greatly from this fundementalist stuff that the original poster seems to believe in (although, we have yet to get any meat and substance to his beliefs so I am not sure what he believes other than you should not have sex). I do not push my beliefs onto others. It would not be right if I did... which is part of my belief structure.

If you would like to know what I believe, I would be happy to tell you, or answer any questions that you may have. I will do so in a polite and informative manner. I will not discount your own beliefs, as I believe that you have every right to think what you will and believe what you will (including questioning the existance of God) without someone else beating you up for it. I will not attempt to 'convert' you. I will not belittle you... unless, of course, you engage in those activities with others... then I figure you are fair game.

The problem with the 'ad absurdum' approach, is that it is a logical fallacy. Thus, it is a poor tool for debate... regardless of whether it may serve to highlight the hypocrisy of the opposition.

The problem with the 'ad absurdum' approach, is that it is a logical fallacy. Thus, it is a poor tool for debate... regardless of whether it may serve to highlight the hypocrisy of the opposition.

Yes, but the beauty of it in this instance is that I did not have to reduce very far from the original poster's contentions as they were pretty much absurd to begin with. Had he been able to provide any form of normal discourse on the subject that was his original supposition, then there would have been meat with which to debate. However, the 'because I said so' arguement is inherently absurd.

There are truly only two ways to combat the imbicilic such as our host. One, make him the sport of beratement and insult, or two, ignore him completely. I did one, then the other... after due diligence in giving him the opportunity to either, take a stance and defend it with honor, or show what an extreme dumbass he truly is. After that, he was fair game to be ignored completely. Luckily, this thread was saved by an intelligent person as yourself.

Now, since we are ignoring the moron who began this thread, let me take up where he never did.

Do you have a question concerning religion or beliefs? I do not know all aspects of each religion, but I know quite a few of many, and have access to other individuals who are even better educated than myself, should there be need.

I know why I believe what I believe, and can certainly answer concerning personal issues. I was raised as a Catholic, live amongst Southern Baptists, have attended Episcople, Lutheran and Methodist Churches. I have studied Judaic and Muslim beliefs. I have also dabbled in Buddhist texts and the occult. I dated a Mormon and work with Jehovah's Witnesses. The office next door houses an Agnostic who used to be a Baptist Preacher, and my best friends are Atheists.

Guess what... we are all pretty much the same... we all search for answers and we are all basically good people who don't mean anyone else any harm. The only ones who seem bent on forcing their beliefs onto others are the Southern Baptists (I call them Bible Thumpers)... but to their defense, a major portion of the belief structure taught to them is that they are the only ones who are correct... and that there is absolutely only one way to salvation. They are also taught to love everyone which means that they have to try to "save" everyone which equates to pushing their beliefs onto everyone... it is a vicious cycle and makes me laugh inside when I speak to them. They literally have an inability to see a larger picture and are genuinely blissful in their ignorance. How do you combat that? I wear one of Randy Cassingham's 'Get Out Of Hell Free' T-shirts and tell them it is okay, I have an ace in the hole.

Uh.... what?

If I take an electron and a positron, all I'll have left is two gamma ray photons. No alpha radiation... just gamma rays. It happens in reverse as well

Here, I'll dig up a link about pair creation.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/hframe.html

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, I'll admit, not apha rays, but I was thinking charged particles (alpha rays are charged [having a high ionizing ability] since they are, what? a helium nuclei). These charged particles are pions which are emitted through proton-antiproton anihilation. I have more on antimatter propulsion too, which favors more proton-antiproton than electron-positron anihilation... but that's another forum debate, unless you want to discuss.

- Emily -

i've noticed that most people with objections don't actually have problems with faith, theyjust don't want to believe. one guy i talked to spent forever stressing about why he couldn't believe until i finally got him to admit that he just didn't wanna believe, cuz he didn't wanna stop having sex. so this is for people who actually wanna believe, but have questions. if u just don't wanna believe, or just wanna make my life miserable, please don't. God bless.

The only question I have is. "Is this guy your imaginary friend?" I do believe that all normal christian babies are created by a male and a female having sexual intercourse of the penis and vagina variety.You may have been conceived in an entirely different manner,as your post suggests. :fluffle:

Another question if I may? Is the King James (1611) Version of the Bible 100% correct? :confused:

Anything that has no weight and takes up no space, does not matter.

Can there every be more matter than antimatter? This is a Yin and Yang thing. Why is it that matter can neither be created or destroyed, and yet we can make antimatter for 62 trillion dollars per gram. Isn't that it costs that much to refine and collect?

The piece of dust refered to by the original poster comes from the idea that all the matter existed at a single, tiny point in space, and then exploded outward from that point. It was a very small piece of dust (relatively speaking)... it was just extremely dense... which seems to be a recurring theme on this thread.

Uh..you talking to me? :D

Uh..you talking to me? :D


I was wondering if anyone was going to pick up on the reference, but then I saw the fallacy of the statement.

Apparently no takers on the offer to have a truly non-bashing kind of discourse here.

And thus, I have killed yet another thread. Pity.

(33 posts, 8 kills... for those keeping count)

Im an atheist because I dont think that a god exists. I like to believe in science and fact. What is the proof that god exists? faith?
If anyone says the bible is proof, then I'd have to disagree. Why cant the bible be a regular book? how do you know everything in it is true?

No offense to anyone, Sorry if you re offended by what I say but that is my opinion

Sorry also if this is not what you are talking about but some of your posts are really quite..umm.. strange.

I am an agnostic who believes that the realm of the infinite (including possibly but probably not God) is completely beyond any hope of comprehension. While I have serious personal issues with Christianinty (and all the major religions except buddhism and Taoism), but it does not mean that I have ruled out any possibility of Christianity being right. Here is my question for any fundamentalists we may have,

How do you know that your interpretation of the Cosmos is right? Or is there no logical reason to believe, and is it completely a matter of faith?

Let me expand on this a bit, just because you have claimed to have experienced Jesus-love and/or any presence of the divine is not enough, and is so incredibly vague is does not validate your inpretation. The Bible is not enough either, since it is only a book, and anyone can write a book. The existance of good, morality, and/or the idea of god is not enough either. The last has long been proven a circular argument, and the first two where pretty flatly torn down by Socrates's critique of the Divine Command Theory (in short, does the things god tells you to do good, or are they good, therefore god tells you to do them; Socrates's response: if God told you to rape kittens, would it still be good?). The ultimate causality arguement doesn't work either, for reasons stated earlier, and because it doesn't prove YOUR interpretation is right, only that there is a uncaused source.

O-kay, now that that's out of the way, I promise I shall suspend my bias against Christianity, and give you a fair hearing.

[QUOTE=Manetheren II]Im an atheist because I dont think that a god exists. I like to believe in science and fact. What is the proof that god exists? faith?
If anyone says the bible is proof, then I'd have to disagree. Why cant the bible be a regular book? how do you know everything in it is true?QUOTE]

There in lies the problem.

No concrete proof has ever been offered to modern man of the existance, or non-existance, of God.

Of course, atheists tend to use this as their proof, just as Christians use the Bible as theirs. Atheists generally point to the lack of evidence as being evidence.

Allow me to make an absurd point: It has been proposed that there is a fish named George on the bottom of the ocean. The ocean is too vast for you to search. You may find many fish, but since you cannot speak their language, you are not sure if one is named George. Your father told you that this fish exists, and has shown you where his father had a book that his father gave him that tells about the fish named George. Now you have a choice to make, do you accept what the book says as being true to existance of George, or do you accept the lack of evidence of George's existance as proof that he doesn't exist? Which is correct?

I cannot make the choice for you any more than you can make the choice for me. Either point is just as valid as the other. We are all searching for the answers to life. We are all the same. As a Christian, I should not beat you up for your beliefs, and I should forgive you for beating me up for mine. As an atheist, I should respect that you have found an answer that works for you and request that you not hinder me in my search for my answers.

I would ask that everyone go rent the most thought provoking of all of the films dealing with the subject of Jesus Christ, "Jesus Christ, Superstar". (In my opinion). It has a unique perspective, a catchy tune or two and one of my favorite quotes:

"What's the buzz? Tell me what's happening."
"Why do you want to know? Why are you obsessed with fighting?
Time and Fate you can't defy. If you knew the path we're riding, you'd understand it less than I."

The biggest problem I have with religion is the fact that we are just supposed to accept the important things as 'mystery'. Eg, Transmition of the Origional Sin is mystery. Why Jesus gave the men, corruptable men, the power to forgive sins is also mystery. The church have benefited greatly from these things and i'm not prepared to accept something like that as mystery.

Why did Jesus give the church the power to forgive sins if he knew damn well that the church would become corrupt?

The other problem I have is the the fact that there are so many different religions. Men dont feel secure not knowing why they are on the earth. If they cant explain it because of the lack of knowlegde of how the universe works, the only option left is to put it down to something higher than himself which he can't see, feel, know about at all (physically).

Why can God not reveal himself to mankind?
What makes one religion any more right than the other?

IF god's existance is found to be highly probable...how do you know if its the christian's god, or the islam's god, or the IPU...uhm or Elvis? What if the 'creator' can be better described as the devil. Or what if its more of a indifferent, neutral kinda god? How can one tell? How do you know if there's really ONE god? Faith? Faith is a volatile thing, and has nothing to do with rationality, but more with the individual's emotional needs. And I'm only hypothetically speaking. I personally do not see the existance of god(s) as probable.

Being a weak/agnonistic/fallable-atheist, I have no problem with the existing religions. I just don't believe in it. However I do very much wish that they would install rockets under that stupid so-called 'holy land' and launch it into outta space so that people would stop killing one another over nothing.

-Wade
---------------------------
http://wadejq.blogspot.com

RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) -- There are some 144,000 unmarried couples living together in North Carolina, and they are all breaking the law - a statute that has been on the books since 1805.

The law against cohabitation is rarely enforced. But now the American Civil Liberties Union is suing to overturn it altogether, on behalf of a former sheriff's dispatcher who says she had to quit her job because she wouldn't marry her live-in boyfriend.

Deborah Hobbs, 40, says her boss, Sheriff Carson Smith of Pender County, near Wilmington, told her to get married, move out or find another job after he found out she and her boyfriend had been living together for three years. The couple did not want to get married, so Hobbs quit.

More at: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/COHABITATION_LAWSUIT?SITE=ORMED&SECTION=US