NationStates Jolt Archive

Traditional diclaimer: I'm not bashing anyone's faith here, I'd just like an answer.

Where is hell mentioned in the bible? Is it mentioned in both the old and new testament? Its my understanding the jesus only talked about heaven and not hell but i could be wrong.

I read an article a few days ago about priests only dreaming up the concept of hell to put a bit of the old fashioned fear o' god in to the kids, but then i thought that couldnt be right as it would require people to ingore the words of their holy book.

This will inevitable turn into a full blown religous thread if it gets past a couple of pages but try to keep it on topic for as long as possibe please.

Looks like it depends on the translation

Here is something I thought intresting while looking


this information aroused our curiosity. The thought occurred: how many times is the word "hell" used in the Christian Bible. Surely, with as much as is taught about the subject in most present day churches, one would think this word would appear hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times in the Bible. The word "heaven(s)" occurs 603 times in the leading Christian English Bible translation, the New International Version. The New American Standard has the word heaven(s) 635 times. To our absolute amazement, the word "hell" in the New International occurred only 14 times! The New American Standard had it 13 times! What was even more astounding was that, like the Jewish Old Testament, neither of these leading Bibles has the word "hell" in the Old Testament! The creator, according to these top selling Bibles, agreed with the Jewish Old Testament that the concept of the place of eternal torment for the unrighteous could not be found in the first three quarters of the Bible. Adam was not warned of "hell." Abraham never heard of "hell." Moses, who brought the Creator's Law into the world warned that "the wages of sin is death," Sheol, the grave. He never ever warned about being roasted, toasted, and endlessly tortured. David, when chasing after Bathsheba, suffered the consequences of his sin, but eternal torment was not on his mind. How could the Creator be so thoughtless, and not warn millions of people of a fate they did not even know awaited them? Could this be just? Could this be loving?

I got it from here ... it was too big to post the whole thing but I would recomend browsing
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

Matthew 5: 13

"You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men.

Matthew 5: 21-23

"You have heard it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable for judgement.' But I say to you every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says 'You fool' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5: 29-31

If your right eye causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Jesus talk about hell directly after the Beatitudes (Blessed be the poor, ...). It is the latter part of the Sermon on the Mount, and it is often neglected. He does speak of it though.

As for the Old Testament, the concept f hell is discussed somewhat but not much. It stands to reason that God, however, would not send someone to hell who was not aware of the divine revelation of Jesus. It would hardly be just for a tribe in Africa to go to hell for having never heard of God. In Christian churches, the belief is that to go to hell, you must commit a mortal sin, which has to meet these three conditions:
Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

I'm not sure of the Bible directly, but I do recall my pastor telling me that the OT version of Hell was seperation from God, not the 7 rings bit it is now a days.

I do know that the modern verison of Hell is thanks to Dante's Inferno (He wishes it was just a three hour tour!) than anything stated in Biblical verses.

Matthew 5: 13

"You are the salt of the earth; but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trodden under foot by men.

Matthew 5: 21-23

"You have heard it was said to the men of old, 'You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable for judgement.' But I say to you every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgement; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says 'You fool' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5: 29-31

If your right eye causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Jesus talk about hell directly after the Beatitudes (Blessed be the poor, ...). It is the latter part of the Sermon on the Mount, and it is often neglected. He does speak of it though.

As for the Old Testament, the concept f hell is discussed somewhat but not much. It stands to reason that God, however, would not send someone to hell who was not aware of the divine revelation of Jesus. It would hardly be just for a tribe in Africa to go to hell for having never heard of God. In Christian churches, the belief is that to go to hell, you must commit a mortal sin, which has to meet these three conditions:
Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner

ok. But to me its seems a bit unreasonable to threaten people with if you only have a few quotes to go on. The first quote didnt seem to talk about hell at all and i didnt really understand the third one.

Hell is never mentioned in the Old Testament. Only "Sheol." That in itself is a discussion. Youll never find a straightforward answer to what exactly was Sheol. My hebrew teacher says that there are not many scholarly works that present an accurate portrayal of sheol. The righteuos and unrighteous all went there. Everyone went there after death.

ok. But to me its seems a bit unreasonable to threaten people with if you only have a few quotes to go on. The first quote didnt seem to talk about hell at all and i didnt really understand the third one.You just ask for one quote he gave it correct so is that all?

You just ask for one quote he gave it correct so is that all?
Also pointed out that the hebrew does not ellude to "hell" in the OT ;)

But he also mentioned in the entire Bible

I found 23 direct references to the word "hell" just in the New Testament. The most graphic:
New International Version
Mark 9:47-49
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell,
where " `their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'Everyone will be salted with fire.

You just ask for one quote he gave it correct so is that all?

Er, I just wanted a discussion about the concept of hell and where it originated. You dont have to take part if you dont want to. Whats your interpretation of Sheol then?

It seems that hell was not a concept in Judaism/Christianity until 200 AD, at least from the scriptures mentioned, correct?

Is hell taught predominantly in Judaism today?

"In Christian churches, the belief is that to go to hell, you must commit a mortal sin, which has to meet these three conditions:
Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner"
----------------------------------------------------
It is the failure to accept Christ as lord and savior and to repent of those sins... that is the path to hell. And since we are all born with sin, if we live to the "age of knowing" we must accept Jesus in order to get into heaven.

You could sin all you want, ask (sincerely) for JEsus to save you and proclaim your faith, and get into heaven.

as for "the wages of sin is death" ... "death" in this case also means the death of the soul, IE going to hell.

i'll find other allusions to hell... just a sec.

You could sin all you want, ask (sincerely) for JEsus to save you and proclaim your faith, and get into heaven.

as for "the wages of sin is death" ... "death" in this case also means the death of the soul, IE going to hell.

i'll find other allusions to hell... just a sec.

Couldn't the "death" mean just that, the end of existence? It seems to me that with such an emphasis being placed on eternal life, that the punishment would be the antithesis of the reward, or total death.

Matthew 8:12 (New International Version)

"But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
---------

Matthew 13:42 (New International Version)

"They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
---------

Mark 9:47-49

"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ Everyone will be salted with fire."
---------

James 3:6

"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell."
--------

Jude 1:7

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
--------

Luke 3:9

"The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."
--------

John 15:5-6

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

snip

How many of those were written by Paul?

Matthew 5: 29-31

If your right eye causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
Well, doesn't that mean that Christian Nations, especially the US whose govt is headed by a born-again Christian that declares to follow the Bible, should rather than condemning the Muslim nations that use amptation as a punishment for theft etc be in fact following this policy themselves.
'Cause that's pretty much what the above Biblical quote says. You steal with your hand, so off it goes!
One does have to wonder as to what mortal sin you can commit with your eye, though.

How many of those were written by Paul?

not many... at least not those in the gospels (matthew, mark, luke, john)

------------------------

the "eye" verses... to me it means that you STOP behaving badly.... if you are sinning, get rid of the thing that causes you to sin.

BTW

I found those verses at Bible Gateway (think it's biblegateway.com) ... good place to go to research the Bible on certain topics.

not many... at least not those in the gospels (matthew, mark, luke, john)

------------------------

the "eye" verses... to me it means that you STOP behaving badly.... if you are sinning, get rid of the thing that causes you to sin.

I believe I read that Mark and Luke were written by Greeks who were converted by Paul, and that Matthew borrows heavily from the book of Mark.

So how responsible do you think Paul is for the concept of Hell?

Judaism and Islam hold very little interest in a reward or punishment after death. Both focus much more so on living a good life. Asking where the soul goes when you die is like asking where a dream goes when you wake up. You will never have an answer.

In both religions, the fate of the dead is up to Allah/Hashem, not to man. Also in both religions, the most important things are the oneness of god (Shema/Shahadah), charitable actions (tzedakah/zakat), etc etc.

Living a good life is far more important. There is a lot of mention of Allah's kingdom in Nevi'im and Kethuvim, but not so much in Torah or Qur'an. Even less is said about how to get there or what happens once you're there.

Modern Christianity has the strongest focus on eternal rewards or punishments. A lot of it comes from the works of Dante, Milton, and Aquinas.

For a more Jewish or Muslim perspective, check out the works of the great Jewish philosopher/legal codifier Chakham Moshe ben-Maimon (Maimonides) aka Rambam, who was Saladin's personal physician.

From what I can tell historically, the Christian church (well, the Catholics, anyway) didn't become interested in Hell until the 9th-10th centuries.

I believe I read that Mark and Luke were written by Greeks who were converted by Paul, and that Matthew borrows heavily from the book of Mark.

So how responsible do you think Paul is for the concept of Hell?

i see. so you doubt that Jesus said those things... in the Gospels. Because those passages fromMatt, Mark, Luke and John are from Jesus, the Master himself.

Matthew 8:12 (New International Version)

"But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
---------

Matthew 13:42 (New International Version)

"They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
---------

Mark 9:47-49

"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where ‘their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ Everyone will be salted with fire."
---------

James 3:6

"The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell."
--------

Jude 1:7

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."
--------

Luke 3:9

"The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."
--------

John 15:5-6

"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."

Good examples. Im glad people have been reading their bibles lately.

i see. so you doubt that Jesus said those things... in the Gospels. Because those passages fromMatt, Mark, Luke and John are from Jesus, the Master himself.

I believe that they are the teachings of people who were taught about the teachings of Jesus, none were actually written by the apostles. I would say at best they were written by individuals who learned from the Apostles.

About the Matthew 5 qoute...about the cutting out of the eye.....

someone qouted that cutting out of your eye is so that you stop sinning...well here is an intrepretation of that part of scripture that i heard one time...seems relevant...anyway.

I think for this though i will use the scripture in Matthew 18:7-9

7“Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.


If you notice...it goes in a kind of order. From hand to foot to eye.

The foot represents when we willingly walk into sin. As if it were across the street and we just walked right up to it. Jesus is saying...if that happens wth you, cut your foot off so at least you won't actually cross the street.

The hand represents reaching out to the sin or touching it but necissarily walking up to it.

The eye represents thinking about it or 'lusting' after it.


I have noticed that in my own walk with God that this pattern has existed. When i have learned to cut off my 'feet', i don't walk into sin as much...then i had to learn to not 'reach for it' and then after that to not lust after it.

Hope this helps someone out.....



but about hell.

Personal view.....Hell is a place that is the absence of God, and where there is knashing of teeth. Someone said it on here.....yes....Hell is the direct opposite of heaven. There is eternal paradise or eternal hell. Now....i do not think Dante's inferno is a good way to think of hell. The bible does not talk about hell having 7 layers/levels. When i think of hell i just see flames...like a furnace that doesn't turn off. Who would want to live in that? The flames constantly licking at your limbs? And no relief? There is a parable in the New Testament where Jesus was talking about a man.

Luke 16:19-end


The Rich Man and Lazarus
19“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27“He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30“ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”


Of course....we start asking ourselves.....what exactly is "Abraham's Side"....well, i don't know either. I know that "abraham's bosom" is mentioned somewhere in the old testament but i'm a bit rusty with my old testament knowledge. Anyway just thought i would put this out there for you all.

Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

Ok ... ewww.

i see. so you doubt that Jesus said those things... in the Gospels. Because those passages fromMatt, Mark, Luke and John are from Jesus, the Master himself.

Look at the "Gospel Parallels" By Throckmorton. He lines up each gospel side by side. You can see the words changed, deleted, and some added. The same stories told through the Gospels change in order of phrases, and Jesus words even change.

Modern Christianity has the strongest focus on eternal rewards or punishments. A lot of it comes from the works of Dante, Milton, and Aquinas.


About the focus on eternal punishment/reward. Christianity has a focus on the eternal in general. But in rewards and punishments, judaism is not without it's punishments. The TANAK contains all of that. You can't read through the prophets without seeing the judgement of God. Also the judgements that were brought upon the Isrealites. It is full of it. But there is also scripture with God's hope and his faithfulness to the Jews.

Christians.....yes...sadly we have gotten on a soap box for many a year about hell and damnation. There was even preachers on my college campus the other day preaching the whole "fire and brimstone" stuff. To be honest with you all.....it isn't about that. It isn't about judgement or punishment. It is about an opportunity for freedom. I'm sorry if my fellow brothers and sisters have judged you because if we did, we were dead wrong. We are not the judge, God alone is.

Back on subject here.....Dante and Milton and...Aquinas have influenced our culture in the idea of what Hell is. But i don't believe they were right. I am very much a stickler for things to agree with the Bible. Yes, i believe the Holy Bible as the infallible word of God.

Here is something also intresting from that link

Of the many English Bible translations we searched, the King James Bible had the most number of cases where we found the word "hell" in the Old Testament. It translated the Hebrew word "Sheol" as "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times. Almost without exception, all the other leading Protestant Bibles didn't have the nerve to do what the King's translators did, that is, take the Hebrew word "Sheol" where everyone went, according to the Old Testament teachings, and divide it into "hell," a place for the unrighteous, and "grave" or "pit," presumably the place for the righteous. They translated this word according to their theology, and not according to the Hebrew. Most of the translations did not have the word "hell" in any part of the Old Testament. The ones that did, have mentioned it only a handfull of times, always from the Hebrew word "Sheol" which they translated the vast majority of times "grave, underworld, etc.." Those translations that use the word "hell" are so inconsistent with it, that it is impossible to determine which Scriptures clearly refers to "hell" and which refers to "grave." Where one translation had "hell," another had "grave." In other words, those translations that tried to put "hell" into the Old Testament couldn't agree with each other as to which verses spoke of "hell" and which spoke of the "grave."

Look at the "Gospel Parallels" By Throckmorton. He lines up each gospel side by side. You can see the words changed, deleted, and some added. The same stories told through the Gospels change in order of phrases, and Jesus words even change.

they didn't have electronic recording equipment... nor, perhaps, were all of the gospel-writers present at every one of Jesus' exploits (or at least all of the same ones).

so we have four views of his life.

there is nothing incongruous in that.

it'd be like if you and I both went out to follow someone. Are we going to have all the same quotes? No...

Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Ok ... ewww.
Then again, they do say that dogs have cleaner mouths than humans, so maybe it mightn't be that bad a thing having them clean his sores like that.

I'm pretty sure the references to fire are merely a way to figuratively describe hell. It is more likely that Hell is the absence of God. It, however, is not about freedom. It is a forced separation from God. There would be no physical comparison to this, because it is believed that God is always with us through our life on earth. So, it is compared to fire instead. I highly doubt it is about freedom though. To go to Hell would probably be a much worse alternative to Heaven, as we are created to be with God. It is considered a state of being, and so there could not really be physical fire. This is not to say we should criticize anybody or condemn them to Hell. I think most genuine Christians (the majority of denominations at least) would trust that God is the only judge and that humans can never judge anything. That is why the Catholic Church claims she has no authority to change thinks like married priests and women priests, because it was passed down from God, etc...

Also, don't take the ripping out of eye thing literally. Ripping out your eye wouldn't do anything, because it is your mind that sinned, and your eye is merely the tool that aided you. It refers to lust, by the way.

In any case, this 'discussion' is about whether the bible mentions hell, and it does. If the priests only thought it up in the 10th century, then they had been ignoring it for 1000 years. It is most likely that hell was believed in by the earliest Christians.

the bible.org's translation of mark comes with this footnote as to the meaning of the word hell in chatper 9

The word translated hell is “Gehenna” (gevenna, geenna), a Greek transliteration of the Hebrew words ge hinnom (“Valley of Hinnom”). This was the valley along the south side of Jerusalem. In OT times it was used for human sacrifices to the pagan god Molech (cf. Jer 7:31; 19:5-6; 32:35), and it came to be used as a place where human excrement and rubbish were disposed of and burned. In the intertestamental period, it came to be used symbolically as the place of divine punishment (cf. 1 En. 27:2, 90:26; 4 Ezra 7:36). This Greek term also occurs in vv. 45, 47.


that is quite different from the concept of hell as the place where satan lives and totures condemned souls.

The TANAK contains all of that.

Yes, I know ... I mentioned that.

Tanak = TNK = Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim.

Torah > Nevi'im and Kethuvim

Then again, they do say that dogs have cleaner mouths than humans, so maybe it mightn't be that bad a thing having them clean his sores like that.

Heh ... wasn't so much the dogs, but the act of licking diseased wounds. *shudder*