NationStates Jolt Archive

Well, if we assume that there indeed was a big bang - what was before?
Definitely not God, because he'd get wasted in the explosion.

I'd like to think that it was God who made the big bang happen and his plan was so perfect that after a couple of billion years we are able to talk about it here.
The more I look at nature, they way plants grow, insects live, animals and birds thrive, the way the chemical elements match - everything is just perfect!
perfect? You think this world is PERFECT? I wish I could live in your naive little world. I am also in total awe of science, expeacially the new chemistry things I just learned. How can one proton turn gold into mercury? How can H and OH form water and have a totally neutral pH? It's all very cool and intriguing, but the force that governs it all isn't god, it's physics: physics runs the universe, even time. The movement of particles is how we know time is passing, not some prescene of god. It's the movement of these particles that does all the cool things that amaze you.
Also, look at physics. The very concepts of time, speed, distance, and acceleration that govern all mechanical physics are all HUMAN concepts. If aliens landed on Earth, they'd most likely not understand most of these concepts, and vice versa. Now, I think the chance of us thinking exactly the same way as god is quite rare, seeing as how he's so "perfect". also, if aliens have different concepts we can't understand, then can we say that they think differently from god? diesn't that sound arrogant, like thinking we're god's chosen (remeber center of the universe theory?hmm?).

The point is, the god theory doesn't hold any water, and science is NOT his tool: it is, rather, something we human's have made up to explain these things that pysics, not god, governs. Science is the result of OUR conceptual thinking, not something god gave us. I, for one, refuse to give him credit for all that has happened in our history. I don't celebrate the beauty of god, I celebrate the beauty of mankind.
Why do we even need the god theory anymore? long ago, we needed a figurehead, a leader, so we made up god. He's lived out his usefulness: I don't believe in god, but I still marvel at the beauty of nature, and life. I'm tolerant, I'm not evil, I've never commited a sin, and the only time I've done something illegal is for 15 seconds when I backed the car out of the garage without a license. I don't need a god to be a good person.

God. I have never believed in the Big Bang and found it very difficult studying it in physics.

Because scientists are smarter than most people.

No most scientists are atheists due to being persecuted by religious nuts, like Galileo.

Back on topic I'm deist. I think God created the universe by scientific methods. He make the Big Bang, creates the earth, creates life, show a bunch of guys how he did it and they simplify it and write in a book with other stuff God told them about. 1800 years down the track we argue about the means of creation because we discover the way he could of done it and people still believe the 1800 year old simplified version is strictly what happened. Not to mention the Bible would probably have been edited at least once, because they argued over something.

God. I have never believed in the Big Bang and found it very difficult studying it in physics.

If the Big Bang was true, we are trying to understand the possible methods of creation, which could have been used by God, an far superior being.
Although I think the Big Bang principle is simple, the following astrophysical effects are very complex,

Someone farther back on this thread said that'd they wouldn't post an opinion because they "have given up trying to taqlk to brick walls". After years upon years of this happening, I think I've had enough of it too. I've had enough of fundamentalist christian beleiving anything the bible says. If I conquered a country, and rewrote the bible, and then shot anyone who protested about how the bible had been changed, then, in my entire country, everyone would believe whatever I told them. Relegion is empty faith, beleif in some imaginary ideas that people in the Roman Empire wrote to try and unite their people and gain power.
Science, on the other hand, uses basic logic to find an answer to a problem. The scientific process is brilliant logic: if everything in a situation stays the same except one thing, it can be blamed for the change. True, there might be unseen factors, but once we account for them all, we can be sure we're right. That's what science has been doing since its creation: making theories, adding new concepts and variables to them. That's why theories are constantly updated. Theories have been tested and accepted because of the work of hundreds of individuals testing them, and becuase of their need to protect their reputation, and sometimes their want to disprove a theory, we can say that almost all of them are unbiased.

So...
Relegion is EMPTY FAITH built on ficticous stories, none of which have been proven. Science is a process that has been refined almost as long as relegions have been in existence, and they have done a much better job, building a system that is built on LOGIC, FACTS, and EXPERIMENTATION. That's why its superior.

Oh, and if there is a god, why is it that there are so many relegions? Is it because the only the Chritians are right, and the Hindu's are wrong? Or maybe Muslims nailed it, and Buddhism is wrong? why?
Is it because they "misunderstand the signs and messages of god?" Boy, if that's what you think, aren't you the arrogant, pompous one!!! You think that you know the answers to everything related to relegion, you think god reached out and touched you, you think god "appointed" you as his chosen messengers?! The only defense that people who beleive in relegion have against science is that "relegion is my opinion, and you can't call an opinion wrong". You talk about how wer disrespect your opinions, and bad-mouth your beliefs. Well, any relegion unwilling to accept the views of other faiths should be bad-mouthed! It is arrogant, self-appointed superiorism! It's the same iopinion Hitler had about the Germans, how they were better, and how the Jews weren't!
If relegions are unwilling to co-operate, if they stand by while their ideas are twisted by suicide bombers and crusaders, if they can't use their knowledge to do good instead of using it for power, then they could be abolished, because they cause death and misery everyday, they fight for power and neglect their followers, and they are outdated, which can only be balanced by working for good, something all major relegions stopped doing long ago.

I'm not sure whether it was created by the big bang or not, but I highly doubt that having some big magic guy go "poof!" is more likely.

Atheism all the way.

The Big Bang Theory allows you to believe what you want, really. It's a huge endorsement of 'creation', depending on how you look at it.

Put simply, if the Big Bang Theory is correct, then it's impossible for us to know what happened. So believe anything that maes you happy - it can't be disproven.

We can speculate all we like on how the universe was made. The truth is that we dont know.
I do believe that the big bang is the most likely of the options.
As for god.. I am an athiest. But I cannot say for certain that there is no God. Nor can I say that there is one. Nobody knows really.
Im just not prepared to live my life in a dictated way on the slim hope that there is a guy in the sky watching over us. If there is a God up there, and if he is all good then he wont condemn people to hell just because they dont believe.
What if someone is the most generous person ever, who never hurt anyone, but didnt believe in God? Do they go to hell? If they do then he isnt as good as everyone makes out.
I can understand a belief that the is a maker. You can always ask "who made that?". I cannot stand organized religion. Living your life obeying a "holy" book, which was essentially written by humans. There is no sense in it. Religion is just a tool to create divides and start wars. Though I wont dent it doeas have good effects in some cases, I just dont think its worth it.
We may as well live our lives how we want and find out when the time comes.

I strayed from the original answer of "Big bang", but thats what i think anyway. I have no reason to believe God created the earth when all the evidence shows otherwise.

I believe the Great Ball God made the planet in the shape of a Ball. This is why the world is round. The Great Frisbee God made the creatures and Frisbees that inhabit the world! Give Playism a try: http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Playism

Or is it? I thought tachyons could travel backwards in time? :confused:

What's a tachyon? :confused:

What's a tachyon? :confused:
By definition, a particle that travels faster than the speed of light. It's not quite the cop-out postulate that it first appears...

A very nice book with simple explainations and colored illustrations is "The Simple Universe". It is very basic in it's approach to quantum physics, and barely touches on the details, but it is still a good read, if you are not increadibly knowledgable. It also proposes some very interesting philosophies that you can think about. I recomend it to anyone who has an interest in modern science, but has no idea where to start. I also recomend it to basically anyone who knows nothing about modern science. It is quite interesting how, throughout the book, it never takes a creationist or an atheist bias, and remains incredibly objective.

Let me shed a little bit of light on the matter. First of all, both happened. Basically, there is nothing to actually prove what actually made the big bang happend but something had to start it all off. Second the bible is actually not wrong. One of my teachers told me that one of the worst parts about translating things (the bible was translated from greek) is that some of the initial meaning is lost. Basically, when the bible says days, you can track the roots of the word days and it can turn into millions of years just based upon past words that it evolved from.

Another thing. No one religion is right. What i see it as is that all religions are one part of a whole because basically they are worshipping a power higher than they are. No one has it wrong as long as they have faith, which is basically all that is required by the Christian God.

For summary: God created the Big Bang (which has been proved by astronomists by gathering space dust that is evidence of it) and by a miracle, we all were evolved (along with natural selection and all that other good stuff). No religion is wrong, they can just be seen as one part of the whole.

By definition, a particle that travels faster than the speed of light. It's not quite the cop-out postulate that it first appears...

I didn't know anything travels faster than light. How do they go so fast!





Worship Frisbees!

By definition, a particle that travels faster than the speed of light. It's not quite the cop-out postulate that it first appears...

There must be a particle something like that, else how could they link subatomic particles across the world?

Supposedly scientists at CERN and a lab in the U.S. can get subatomic particles to link their fate and perform the exact same actions as the other particle at any one time, across the ocean.

really it doesnt matter which one happened first we are here now, but if im forced to choose ill probly say big bang

Let me shed a little bit of light on the matter. First of all, both happened. Basically, there is nothing to actually prove what actually made the big bang happend but something had to start it all off. Second the bible is actually not wrong. One of my teachers told me that one of the worst parts about translating things (the bible was translated from greek) is that some of the initial meaning is lost. Basically, when the bible says days, you can track the roots of the word days and it can turn into millions of years just based upon past words that it evolved from.

Another thing. No one religion is right. What i see it as is that all religions are one part of a whole because basically they are worshipping a power higher than they are. No one has it wrong as long as they have faith, which is basically all that is required by the Christian God.

For summary: God created the Big Bang (which has been proved by astronomists by gathering space dust that is evidence of it) and by a miracle, we all were evolved (along with natural selection and all that other good stuff). No religion is wrong, they can just be seen as one part of the whole.

You might as well just call yourself a Deist rather than a Christian, then. Saying that the Bible is "actually not wrong" stretches the mistranslation excuse a little far, considering all that Christians claim the Bible says.

you know what i find funniest is that if there is a heaven or equivilent and if there is a "God" or equivilent atheist will probably be wellcome there because there will be 1 religion thats correct and atheists will be the scecond groop there because we resisted all the other religions trying to pull us to beleve in a false god so... :)

oh and if christians ever wreally followed the bible excatly they would stone there kids to death every time they made a mistake or did something wrong.

the dad said "you got a 99% on your homework DIE"
"noooo gaaaaa aaaaaa baaaaaaa" screems the kid *dies of stoneing

By the way, i am not a christian. I think that all of the Jesus Christ worshipping and such is taking things way too far (i apologize if i offend anyone). All i believe is that there is a God who created things and that basically we should not force our selves to live by some book but to live our lives the way we see fit. In my personal opinion, i can't believe in the Christian God. For example: The christians say that their God has endless mercy. Well if he does, why doesn't he stop the genocide of the Sudanese by their government?

Basically i feel that there is a God but we should just enjoy ourselves. Hell, we have only about an average life span of 70-80 years so we might as well have fun since time goes by so fast :).

I didn't know anything travels faster than light. How do they go so fast!


Well, if they start out travelling faster than light, then the speed limit is reversed - they can never go SLOWER than the speed of light and (I think) they can speed up and release energy instead of taking energy while doing so.

Such particles would have strange qualities such as always moving backwards in time and having a mass that is an imaginary number...

The caveat - I don't think that we currently have any reason to believe that such particles actually exist anywhere except in some people's imaginations.

There must be a particle something like that, else how could they link subatomic particles across the world?

Supposedly scientists at CERN and a lab in the U.S. can get subatomic particles to link their fate and perform the exact same actions as the other particle at any one time, across the ocean.

Yay quantum screwiness!

Spooky action at a distance!

Currently, according to the equations of quantum mechanics, "entanglement" (which is I think what you are talking about) happens without the need for any particles exchanged between the two entangled particles.

Though I guess QM doesn't really say that, it just describes it and doesn't give any clue as to whether there's an underlying mechanism.

I suppose tachyons are a potential one, that's an interesting thought... I don't think the supposition of their existence solves any problems though, I think it would raise more problems - such as, why don't other particles interact with each other through these tachyons...

...from what I hear, currently there is no plausible "hidden variable" theory to explain quantum weirdness...

I could be wrong about this though, I'm out of my element here.

NO ONE CARES

God or Big Bang? Why does it matter? It has no purpose in our living universe, and whether there is an afterlife or not cannot be proven by humans alone. Therefore, why dwell over questions that will never be answered confidently and agreeably by all humans?

Big Bang all started with one black hole and after well lets just say a fucking long time it reaches a point of critical mass and imploads and theres a HUGE explosion sending all sorts of shit every where and all this shit slowly VERY SLOWLY forms all the planets and solar systems and gallyxies and shit and well if anyones every payed any atention in science class well all the gallaxies are moving and because space never ends well there still moving becasue of the big bang

ino this is a pretty crappy post but still

BIG BANG ALL THE WAY!!!! IT MAKES SENSE :)

Relegion is EMPTY FAITH built on ficticous stories, none of which have been proven. Science is a process that has been refined almost as long as relegions have been in existence, and they have done a much better job, building a system that is built on LOGIC, FACTS, and EXPERIMENTATION. That's why its superior.

So you are saying that the ten plagues of egypt never happend? They have documented proof from the egyptions saying it did. It is one thing to debase a point with proof. But it is quite another to debase an entire system of thought, of ideas, of life. Choose your words more carefully.

I agree that we cannot prove for certain that the bible is False or True. Because in order to due that we must be able to sit down with God or the gods and discuss what the heck really happened (supposing of course there are such beings). However, it is equally impossible to prove the Big Bang did not happen either. There for it is not what Gould would call a "theory" at all. it can not have scientific merit unless you can (hypothetically) prove it incorrect.

In short neither is a sound theory, now pull you heads out of the sand and come up with something more productive do you with your time than type in an angry fashion at one another. That is all...

*connection terminated*

AHH!! Aliens Landed in My Computer! AHHH!!! that post almost made sense!!! AHHHH!!!

I do believe current evidence supports the Big Bang theory at least somewhat better than most others so far. However, I cannot be sure whether a God was the cause of it.


I went to a talk at the astronomical society the other day given by this crazy old guy called john dobson, founder of the sidewalk astronomers... he doesn't believe in the big bang (for the record he rules god out as not being observationally relevent) he said

the Big Bang cosmology is not well supported by the observational evidence
The reason they came up with the Big Bang model is because all the distant galaxies seem to be running away from us. The farther away you look the faster they seem to be running. And the simplest and most straightforward and most honest interpretation is that long ago they were all in one place, and they went kapooie and that is why they're running. The faster ones got out there faster because they were going faster, and the nearer ones weren't going so fast and they didn't get so far. Perfectly straightforward. But there were problems.

"Anyone who operates with explosives knows perfectly well that after an explosion the different pieces of the exploding missle do not collide. The only reason you are afraid of an explosion is because you are not part of it!


So the proponents of the the Big Bang have this problem. If the thing was an explosion like this, nothing would ever have collided with anything anymore and you cannot get galaxies and stars. Now, a cosmological model that does not account for galaxies and stars is considered to be flawed! So those old Big Bang models die, not even a natural death, but they die.

Then came this other problem. How can we get this explained without that problem arising, and so they came up with the Inflationary Model. So, the Inflationary Model has this bubbly thing going on - it's really more than you can believe - but at any rate with this bubbly thing they can get one bubble colliding with another. But the Inflationary Model requires that the Grand Unified Theory should succeed.

The Grand Unified Theory requires that protons should decay. And the protons aren't decaying. Now if the protons stoutly refuse to decay then the Grand Unified Theories will stoutly die. And if they die, the Inflationary Models dies, and if they die the Big Bang dies and all hell will break loose because all the physicists and all the astronomers and all the cosmologists and all the biologists and all the people who run the television shows have got all their money riding on it.

Why is it no one wants to think God started the Big Bang... Why does it have to be either/or

Why is it no one wants to think God started the Big Bang... Why does it have to be either/or
Quite a lot of people think that a close approximation to the human views of 'God' did create the universe via the big bang. The big problem is that scientists would be unwilling to say that God caused the big bang because it is akin to suggesting the tooth fairy exists, at least within the scientific community. People who believe a God created the universe are often unwilling to accept the big bang theory because a)Their religious text does not explicity mention the big bang or b)They are pissed at science for laughing at their religion.

So you are saying that the ten plagues of egypt never happend? They have documented proof from the egyptions saying it did.
First, "history is written by those who have hanged heroes": Documents can be changed by people who write them, or people who find them, because those epople want to use it as a way to get something done. But I'm not calling you a liar, because I really don't know enough about these documents to say anything.
Second, they could have happened as a natural thing. But back then, peoples superstituin would lead them to blame it on certain causes. To give you an exmaple, let's say a major case of avian flu broke out in the ancient world. Suddenly, birds would by dying, and dropping from the skies. Because the disease would be limited to birds only at first, people would think that the birds had drawn God's wrath, or, say in Greece, that Zeus was angry with his subjects (Zeus was the god mostly asscociated with birds).

In short, these documents, ljust like the bible, were written by humans, and are totally vulnerable to being written with a bias, subconcious or not. The bible was written with a bias consciously to unite the Romans, and if people had heard Moses's speech about the plagues, then the moment someone gets a blister, they'll think that the plagues are happening. They have subconsciously put a bias into their writings.

I agree that we cannot prove for certain that the bible is False or True....it is equally impossible to prove the Big Bang did not happen either. Therefore it is not what we would call a "theory" at all. it can not have scientific merit unless you can prove it incorrect.


First of all it can't have scientific merit unless it can be proven correct. Then they retain their status as an accepted theory until they are disproved. So, here's the SOLUTION:We can assume that Relegion and Science both haven't earned any scientific merit yet. So, this deabte is totally useless: We can't deabte two theories if those theories don't exist. So what's the solution? We wait.
If Scientists do enough to prove that the Big bang Could have and did happen, then it will be the accepted theory with no question. If the relegious poeple can prove that God created everything (and not using the bible, but using a source that isn't man-made), then they're theory will unquestionably become the right one. Only if both are rpoved right can we have this debate, So we might as well spend our time and ebergy somewhere else.

If the Big Bang was true, we are trying to understand the possible methods of creation, which could have been used by God, an far superior being.
Although I think the Big Bang principle is simple, the following astrophysical effects are very complex,
That doesn't matter to me. I just can not accept the Big Bang Theory.

That doesn't matter to me. I just can not accept the Big Bang Theory.

Why not?

There has no doubt been many religous fanatics saying how God created the Universe, i am only guessing as i have not read the thread (look how long it is
!)

How do you know that God created the Universe? There are many different relgions each with their own God or Gods, so who are you to say that Your God created the Universe?

There is also no doubt other planets through the Universe capable of sustaining life, and they most likely have Alien life forms on them that beleive in Gods who created the Universe, it is this reason that i feel just saying that God created the Universe is a little lack luster as these religous fantatics have nothing to go by but the words of men of old who wrote these holy books and scripts.


There is however scientific proof that the Big Bang theory could have happened. Proof that everyone can see if they look in any book about the Bing Bang or indeed any website.
There is not proof for the non religous people who just look at the bible and other holy books, you simply can't take it as the truth as people from thousands of years ago knew nothing about space or anything on this planet so God would have been a common answer to all of lifes questions.

It is my opinion that The Bang Theory brought the universe into being.

I wonder how many religous people i just offended?

A scientific theory cannot be accepted unless it can be proven false.

Meaning, there is a way, using both reason and science. The possibility of proving something false is not the same as proving it false.

We [scientists] have evidence and mathematical models of how the Big Bang may have occurred, and have not, as of yet, proven it false. Many possibilities abound for the beginning of the current incarnation of our universe, and the Big Bang is a mighty contender.

Either the Big Bang or possibly the Stars may have already been here and planets formed over time by hurtling into each other and progressively getting larger or smaller and settling in a stars orbit.


Dodgy, but it took me a few seconds to come up with.

God created the universe.

Really? I could have sworn I created it :confused:







or mabye im thinking aout that sandwich :x