NationStates Jolt Archive

I had an interesting thought.

Via the due process of eventual evolution, and assuming that sentient beings never evolved enough intellectual capacity to create computers proper..

Eventually (and sooner or later) a computer would evolve on its own, with logic parameters in place to field as important its preservation.

Either it would enter into being with a full set of instructions on how to create more of its kind, or - since it would be non-organic, and therefore imortal - it would wait until another computer came forward as well; one that DID posess the required knowledge for reproduction.

Is it not possible that, were humans not ever started down the evolutionary tree, this world could be ruled by super-computers? Dictating their every whim thru', I don't know.. vocal emulation, to comunicate with organics?

* passes pipe *

Here, puff on this... :rolleyes:

No, I'm serious.

Logically, isn't that a possible outcome of the evolutionary thought process?

I don't understand. Things cannot evolve unless they are reproducing and passing their own characteristsic to their offspring, right?

* passes pipe *

Here, puff on this... :rolleyes:
Maaan!!! This stuff is good.

It makes me feel inspired: DNA is molecule that works like a computer of sorts. Think about it and discuss.

I'm talking about real computers, rather than "computer-ish behaviors".

Like a jungle-bedecked Athlon rig, subjecting the local snake population to its evil whims.

I don't think it would work. While the building blocks of organic life, like amino acids, are just lying around the galaxy, electrical computers need metal parts to work as good electrical conductors. You just don't find pure metals laying around in nature. Copper, aluminum, etc. are found in the form of metal salts and ores, which don't conduct electricity.

But given the right.. I don't know, environmental conditions, over time?
The Earth has seen some pretty major torquing in its day.. sooner or later, the conditions would HAVE to come into alignment for a computer to rise from the ashes of its earthy grave..

I'm talking about real computers, rather than "computer-ish behaviors".

Like a jungle-bedecked Athlon rig, subjecting the local snake population to its evil whims.
In that case, no. Evolution doesn't work that way.

What's wrong with organic brains, anyway?

There's nothing wrong with them.

How is it that evolution doesn't work that way, tho'? :(

But given the right.. I don't know, environmental conditions, over time?
The Earth has seen some pretty major torquing in its day.. sooner or later, the conditions would HAVE to come into alignment for a computer to rise from the ashes of its earthy grave..
It would have to start with something simple. Like an on/off switch, maybe. Then it could get together with an AND or OR switch. etc. etc.

But I don't think that the end result would resemble an Athlon computer, or that it would be able to run Doom3. It would be difficult for it to happen in a planet, where organic chemistry has so much of an advantage.

Or maybe the highly metallic core of a gas giant. But it's too hot.

Taking billions of billions of years, tho', maybe one would even evolve WITH a doom CD in its drive!

Plus.. again, law of averages over infinite time says that sooner or later, a complete computer would be formed, right? Even in a disadvantageous state, like Earth..? A computer with a full AI set, and everything! :D

Via the due process of eventual evolution, and assuming that sentient beings never evolved enough intellectual capacity to create computers proper..

...

Is it not possible that, were humans not ever started down the evolutionary tree, this world could be ruled by super-computers?

No, evolution requires imperfect self-reproduction in the presence of selective pressures... which isn't a property that exists in computers unless someone deliberately designs them that way in the first place. Someone with sufficient intelligence would first need to construct a computer AND manufacturing facilities with the computer in control of them that the computer could use to reproduce itself AND the reproduction process would have to have the occasional random error in it AND the resulting computers would have to be subjected to some kind of natural selective pressures...

Without someone building the first computers and those manufacturing capabilities computers cannot undergo an evolutionary process.

"due process of evolution" was a sucky choice of phrase. :(

I meant that, since evolution is a string of chance occurances, then sooner or later a HUGE chance occurance (ie: computer creation) would happen?

There's nothing wrong with them.

How is it that evolution doesn't work that way, tho'? :(
I mean, it wouldn't happen like magic, with the end result. And the rest of the life on that planet would also have to be computers, otherwise the chemistry would be all wacko. They would just be less powerful.

I'm thinking that "magic" could happen, tho' - at least, seemingly magic - with enough time, the exact right situation would happen for computer formation!

"due process of evolution" was a sucky choice of phrase. :(

I meant that, since evolution is a string of chance occurances, then sooner or later a HUGE chance occurance (ie: computer creation) would happen?
Evolution is not a string of chance occurances. It's a mechanism through which species diverge. Random mutations happen in living beings, but that doesn't make them evolve necessarily or become a new species.

I know, I know. I mean, the PREMISE of evolution: that things happen by chance, over long spans of time, would allow my computer to live!

It's a longer leap for a computer to spontaniously create just all at once, but it's still bound to happen, since basic organic components did the same - just on a smaller level.

"due process of evolution" was a sucky choice of phrase. :(

I meant that, since evolution is a string of chance occurances, then sooner or later a HUGE chance occurance (ie: computer creation) would happen?

Nope.

No amount of chance occurances are ever going to assemble a microprocessor... intergrated with other logic circuits... networked with a fully automated manufacturing plant... with full software blueprints for the whole setup installed and ready to go. Even providing for infinite time. There's no mechanism by which it could occur on it's own so the odds of it happening are exactly zero.

Unless of course we're talking about biological "super-computers".

Nope.

No amount of chance occurances are ever going to assemble a microprocessor... intergrated with other logic circuits... networked with a fully automated manufacturing plant... with full software blueprints for the whole setup installed and ready to go. Even providing for infinite time. There's no mechanism by which it could occur on it's own so the odds of it happening are exactly zero.

Unless of course we're talking about biological "super-computers".

But couldn't pressures of the earth, combined with metals etc, thrown together with some electrical storm, etc, etc, etc eventually result in a computer?

Long odds, I know.. but with that much time.. it's got to be possible!

I know, I know. I mean, the PREMISE of evolution: that things happen by chance, over long spans of time, would allow my computer to live!

It's a longer leap for a computer to spontaniously create just all at once, but it's still bound to happen, since basic organic components did the same - just on a smaller level.
Evolution has nothing to do with chance! That's my point. If your premise is that in a Universe where anything can happen suddenly a computer can appear to rule over a planet of squirrels then yes, that can happen. But it wouldn't be through the process of evolution.

More like the process of a fluke in the space time continuum that grabbed a computer from some kid's bedroom with the Doom3 CD still inside, combined it with an AI from Lubridicum VII and dropped it on Squirry III. But evolution, no.

Evolution deals with chance mutations, doesn't it? And then natural selection takes it from there.


I'm talking about normal universe as we know it, but with just the right circumstances occuring to assemble a computer. It doesn't have to be in the same steel-box as we know it, but with the same mechanics / composition.

You're not talking about evolution, because evolution concerns passing of genetic information.
What you are talking about better relates to quantum physics.

That said, there's certainly a chance that a computer will spontaneously appear, it's just rather small.

...there's certainly a chance that a computer will spontaneously appear, it's just rather small.


SWEET :D

Evolution deals with chance mutations, doesn't it? And then natural selection takes it from there.

Random mutations were thought to be responsible for changes from one generation to another, and some of them might produce minute differences that are useful, but that's not evolution's main driver. The main driver is adaptation, DNA with certain traits will find it easier to survive and pass on those traits. We are still learning how DNA works so the exact way in which information is added to DNA or old instructions reactivated is still unknown. But it does seem to have very little to do with chance.


I'm talking about normal universe as we know it, but with just the right circumstances occuring to assemble a computer. It doesn't have to be in the same steel-box as we know it, but with the same mechanics / composition.
You mean like an adder unit, random access memory, mass memory, input/output and so on?

You're not talking about evolution, because evolution concerns passing of genetic information.
What you are talking about better relates to quantum physics.

That said, there's certainly a chance that a computer will spontaneously appear, it's just rather small.

Ah. Uh. I knew I wasn't talking about evolution, proper. I kinda didn't spell myself out completely clearly, but I was operating under the assumption that if evolution is fact, then, because small things of chance happened over millions of years, (just in the right sequence), given the right ammounts of time, a BIG thing of chance might happen. :)

...You mean like an adder unit, random access memory, mass memory, input/output and so on?

Right - and data storage, vocal emulation capabilities, rententative learning logs, etc.

[edit] Oh, and by "composition", I also mean "basically the same physical makeup (opposed to appearance)" - so, metal for the traces, etc. [edit]

Evolution deals with chance mutations, doesn't it? And then natural selection takes it from there.


I'm talking about normal universe as we know it, but with just the right circumstances occuring to assemble a computer. It doesn't have to be in the same steel-box as we know it, but with the same mechanics / composition.
There are limits on the mutations imposed by the laws of chemistry. Then natural selection kicks in and further reduces randomness by sorting the mutations into three piles, Usefull, Neutral, and Harmfull. Evolution is a process of order, not chaos.

Right - and data storage, vocal emulation capabilities, rententative learning logs, etc.
Oh, then yes. It can happen. It just won't resemble much of a computer and the workings at the most basic level will most probably be different to that of a normal computer, but yes. I bet it has happened at least once.
EDIT: For composition, I see what you mean. Have you seen the jewel beetles of Central America? They only look metallic, but it's not too hard to assume that in a planet with high radioactivity or strong electric fields forming a metal shield would be useful.
The plastic keyboard and mouse is another matter, though.

...I bet it has happened at least once.

That rocks. Do you have any examples?

Supposing an infinitely large universe filled with infinite matter and going on for an infinite amount of time, not only would this happen, but it would have happened an infinite number of times, and would then happen an infinite number of times in the future.

Supposing an infinitely large universe filled with infinite matter and going on for an infinite amount of time, not only would this happen, but it would have happened an infinite number of times, and would then happen an infinite number of times in the future.

I knew it all along!

That rocks. Do you have any examples?
Human brains :D
They have long and short term memories, instruction processing units, input/output through nerve endings, vocal processors, pattern recognition units, etc. The works, in fact.

A computers have similar brains, except less flexible. A computer being would also have a similar brain, except that instead of neurons perhaps it could have little instruction-processing chips and data-storage chips. The chips could be an iron or copper nucleus. Of course, this life form would have learned to turn ore into metals and semi-conductors in pretty much the same way a plant turns dirt into sugar.

Not very probable and it just wouldn't have come out of nowhere, especially in a planet already crawling with organic life, but it could happen.

I meant, examples of METALIC computers, but that's exactly what I'm talkin' about!

Computers..
ruling the earth.
Mmmmm..


And then, if we allow an even longer time, we could get computers that LOOK like what we've got now, at least roughly.

I meant, examples of METALIC computers, but that's exactly what I'm talkin' about!


Straudicon IV. Nasty business there, with the companies shutting down the mines and processing plants. Computers decided that they didn't need the organics to run things anyway and took over the plants. Now the entire planet is ruled by computers. It's not bad, actually. They've done a good job.


Computers..
ruling the earth.
Mmmmm..

Hasn't happened on Earth. Could still happen, but I don't think the current ruler will give up without a fight. Oh, and that ruler is the TV, not humans, in case you were wondering.


And then, if we allow an even longer time, we could get computers that LOOK like what we've got now, at least roughly.
Why would they want to do that? Computers on Earth are ugly and not elegant at all. Or even that useful, unless your goal is to be stashed away in some corner.

My two cents...

How about the theory of infinate universes with infinite combinations at the sub atomic level. Considering this there is a much certainty that there is a universe ruled by supercomputers as there is a universe completly comprised of high grade chedder cheese. Both possibilities are absolutly certain considering that there is a universe fo every combination of particle variations.

Or the whole multiverse theory is complete BS, in that case, whatever...

Excellent thread and excellent topic. I just did a lab for my biology class with a computer program called Avida which explores digital evolution. The computer "organisms" in the program begin as simple sequences of self-replicating digital genetic code. While the program runs, there is no human interference to their activities. The organisms grow on their own, reproduce their genetic code, experience random mutation, and experience evolution due to environmental selective pressures that the human user can specify in order to "guide" the course of evolution however he or she sees fit. Or you can just leave the bugs to themselves with random selective pressures. Either way, the results are quite fascinating, and many of these "organisms" independently develop totally unexpected and unanticipated abilities that are often far more complex than the original hard code written by humans. Here is an interesting article about this program.

http://www.carlzimmer.com/articles/2005/articles_2005_Avida.html

The researchers who developed Avida think that eventually self-evolving programs might become powerful computer viruses that can at any time modify themselves, without any human input whatsoever, to dodge and dismantle anti-virus software much like HIV can avoid and destroy the human immune system. Beyond that, computer programs might one day evolve even higher sophistication and maybe intelligence and self awareness.

Great excerpt from the above article, originally printed in discover magazine:
One of the hallmarks of life is its ability to evolve around our best efforts to control it. Antibiotics, for example, were once considered a magic bullet that would eradicate infectious diseases. In just a few decades, bacteria have evolved an arsenal of defenses that make many antibiotics useless.

Ofria has been finding that digital organisms have a way of outwitting him as well. Not long ago, he decided to see what would happen if he stopped digital organisms from adapting. Whenever an organism mutated, he would run it through a special test to see whether the mutation was beneficial. If it was, he killed the organism off. “You'd think that would turn off any further adaptation,” he says. Instead, the digital organisms kept evolving. They learned to process information in new ways and were able to replicate faster. It took a while for Ofria to realize that they had tricked him. They had evolved a way to tell when Ofria was testing them by looking at the numbers he fed them. As soon as they recognized they were being tested, they stopped processing numbers. “If it was a test environment, they said, 'Let's play dead,' ” says Ofria. “There's this thing coming to kill them, and so they avoid it and go on with their lives.”

When Ofria describes these evolutionary surprises, admiration and ruefulness mix in is voice. “Here I am touting Avida as a wonderful system where you have full knowledge of everything and can control anything you want-except I can't get them to stop adapting. Life will always find a way.”

Thinking about such adaptable creatures lurking on the Michigan State campus, furiously feeding on data, can be unsettling. Should the Avida team be working in quarantine? Lenski argues that Avida itself acts as a quarantine, because its organisms can exist only in its computer language. “They're living in an alien world,” Lenski says. “They may be nasty predators from Mars, but they'd drop dead here.”

Still, Ofria acknowledges that harmful computer viruses may eventually evolve like his caged digital organisms. “Some day it's going to happen, and it's going to be scary,” Ofria says. “Better to study them now so we know how to deal with them.”

Here is another article about how Avida works, published in Nature.
http://myxo.css.msu.edu/lenski/pdf/2003,%20Nature,%20Lenski%20et%20al.pdf

You can download Avida to your own computer to make digital organisms that evolve complex traits without human help. But unfortunately this version does not include the most cutting edge and detailed scripts that model natural environments and can produce the coolest evolutionary effects.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/avida

You can download Avida to your own computer to make digital organisms that evolve complex traits without human help. But unfortunately this version does not include the most cutting edge and detailed scripts that model natural environments and can produce the coolest evolutionary effects.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/avida
Aha!
I'd been looking for that since somebody mentioned it to me last week. Turns out I was misspelling it. Oops.

*downlaods*

Supposing an infinitely large universe filled with infinite matter and going on for an infinite amount of time, not only would this happen, but it would have happened an infinite number of times, and would then happen an infinite number of times in the future.

There still has to be some NON ZERO probability of it occuring on it's own for the "infinite time" thing to be a factor.

No such probability exists when we're talking about computers like the plastic and metal and doped silicon construct you're reading this post on because there are no natural processes that assemble them. Heck, some of their basic materials are SYNTHETIC. They don't even occur naturally! If we're not talking biological computers it ain't going to happen.

Supposing an infinitely large universe filled with infinite matter and going on for an infinite amount of time, not only would this happen, but it would have happened an infinite number of times, and would then happen an infinite number of times in the future.

There isn't infinite matter. It wont go on for an infinite period of time.