NationStates Jolt Archive

In an effort to find some good topics for discussion, I am turning to the Political Compass quiz. The majority of us have taken this quiz and put thought into each of these questions, so hopefully they can provide some useful debate. Maybe we will see some radical shifts in political compass scores.
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For each question post how you answered (Strongly Agree, Agree, Disagree, Strongly Disagree) and give your reasoning for your answer.

Question 2:

"I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong."

Strongly disagree.

Question 2:

"I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong."

I answered this one thinking, "Well, you know, my country's done some stupid shit over the years, and I definitely don't support that." So, I did *Strongly Disagree*.

What sort of lemming supports their government (as I assume this question means by "country") no matter what they do?

Strongly disagree.
"

What sort of lemming supports their government (as I assume this question means by "country") no matter what they do?

Dunno. I guess it would have to be the hordes of lemmings who voted for G.W. Bush.

What sort of lemming supports their government (as I assume this question means by "country") no matter what they do?
^ What he said.

I chose 'strongly disagree'.

What sort of lemming supports their government (as I assume this question means by "country") no matter what they do?
The sort of lemmings that are thrown over the top of cliffs for Disney documentaries?

strongly agree

EDIT: reasoning: since the government is all the people put together, one would support the other people in their country weather they're right or wronge since they'd agree with that person on most subjects.

Dunno. I guess it would have to be the hordes of lemmings who voted for G.W. Bush.
A horde of conservative, bigotted christian lemmings, please. :p

Strongly Disagree

Dunno. I guess it would have to be the hordes of lemmings who voted for G.W. Bush.

Watch out for those voting lemmings!

Strongly disagree. I think the nation state is a disease that needs to be cured:). Okay, not that bad, but I really don't like uberpatriotism at the expense of free thought. I love the fact that in a democracy, you have the right and the freedom to criticise what you think is wrong in your country...and the ability to work to make positive changes to correct those 'wrongs'. Support your country, right or wrong? Come on. What does that mean? If it means I'll still live in my country and love it even though it's being run by a bunch of idiots, then okay. Unfortunately, it usually means giving up freedoms, including the freedom of speech, or being labelled a traitor for speaking out when your country is in the wrong.

What sort of lemming supports their government (as I assume this question means by "country") no matter what they do?
It's one thing to support your country, and another thing entirely to support the current government. Way back in the stone-ages, when I was younger, the Oath we took upon entry to the Army included the following phrase:

"... support and Defend the Constitution of the United States against Enemies both foreign and Domestic..."

Domestic enemies would include a Government that has suspended or thrown out said Constitution to rule by Fiat.

You can support your Country and still oppose its Policies, Swimmingpool. You have to be able to make the mental separation between the politicians, and the Nation to do that.

Vitt: I'm very visual...why don't you put a poll in these threads too?

It's one thing to support your country, and another thing entirely to support the current government. Way back in the stone-ages, when I was younger, the Oath we took upon entry to the Army included the following phrase:

"... support and Defend the Constitution of the United States against Enemies both foreign and Domestic..."

Domestic enemies would include a Government that has suspended or thrown out said Constitution to rule by Fiat.

You can support your Country and still oppose its Policies, Swimmingpool. You have to be able to make the mental separation between the politicians, and the Nation to do that.

Yes, that is true. But the Political Compass test meant "government", which is why we clicked the *Strongly Disagree* checkbox.

Vitt: I'm very visual...why don't you put a poll in these threads too?

That is a good idea. Polls coming.

Dunno. I guess it would have to be the hordes of lemmings who voted for G.W. Bush.
Not at all. Many of those Bush voters opposed the American government of 1993-2001.

You can support your Country and still oppose its Policies, Swimmingpool. You have to be able to make the mental separation between the politicians, and the Nation to do that.
I'm aware of that. I would always support and defend my country, but as a chunk of land with people, I don't see how it can be "wrong" or "right". I assume that the badly-worded question meant the government.

Not at all. Many of those Bush voters opposed the American government of 1993-2001.

Terrific, it tickles me when someone makes such a partisan statement and someone else reasonably and calmly destroys their statement.

strongly agree

EDIT: reasoning: since the government is all the people put together, one would support the other people in their country weather they're right or wronge since they'd agree with that person on most subjects.

yeah, and democracy works :cool:

i think the government i the elite of power-hungry rich people put together to command everybody inside the nation borders with their own ideals . i would support them when they're doing things right and when they're doing things wrong, i would bash them like there's no tomorrow

After these questions run their course (that may be a long time), I will enter the poll results into the quiz and find the NS consensus political compass.

Not at all. Many of those Bush voters opposed the American government of 1993-2001.

True. But, I still find it funny that they support such horrible things that our country has done in the Middle East (torture, killing children, you know, those wonderful things). They support these things, yet they didn't support Mr. Clinton because he raised our taxes!!! Lemmings? No. Assholes? Hell yes.

I'm aware of that. I would always support and defend my country, but as a chunk of land with people, I don't see how it can be "wrong" or "right". I assume that the badly-worded question meant the government.

I'm pretty sure they meant government in that question. If they didn't, well, somebody must've been pretty high.

disagree

It doesn't make it ok for my government to do something that's wrong just because it's my government. I mean, I'll defend my country if it was invaded, but I'm not signing up for the military for a war that I view to be wrong.

Terrific, it tickles me when someone makes such a partisan statement and someone else reasonably and calmly destroys their statement.
And I'm not even pro-Bush!

After these questions run their course (that may be a long time), I will enter the poll results into the quiz and find the NS consensus political compass.
That's a great idea. Have you set a time for this poll to lock?

True. But, I still find it funny that they support such horrible things that our country has done in the Middle East (torture, killing children, you know, those wonderful things). They support these things, yet they didn't support Mr. Clinton because he raised our taxes!!! Lemmings? No. Assholes? Hell yes.
Yes I know that it's silly how Republicans can be so anti-Clinton when you consider how the last Democrat stood for mostly their interests. Clinton was pro-military action, pro-corporate, pro-death penalty. What surprises me even more is how many American "liberals" support him.

Oops i've gone off topic.

That's a great idea. Have you set a time for this poll to lock?

I don't know, should I give it a few days? Or maybe a couple weeks?

I don't know, should I give it a few days? Or maybe a couple weeks?
yes, two weeks.

True. But, I still find it funny that they support such horrible things that our country has done in the Middle East (torture, killing children, you know, those wonderful things).


Evidence, please? (no, Kos.com or Democratic Underground don't count.)


They support these things, yet they didn't support Mr. Clinton because he raised our taxes!!! Lemmings? No. Assholes? Hell yes.


There were a lot of reasons people did not support Clinton-including (but not limited to) his 'adjustment' of definitions to give McDonnell-Douglas a 'pass' for selling MIRV and guidance technology to the PRC, his Utah Land-Grab that only benefitted some Indonesian Coal-Operators (The Riati Family)-at the expense of American citizens, I might add... lots of small reasons that had nothing to do with Taxes.




I'm pretty sure they meant government in that question. If they didn't, well, somebody must've been pretty high.

Indubitably.

Evidence, please? (no, Kos.com or Democratic Underground don't count.)

I saw a documentary on the Discovery Times channel, showing the gung-ho personality of these people. They don't even give a fuck that Iraqis are being tortured --- A lot of them even think that it's a good thing. Many of them don't even know the half of what's really going on, and they don't seem to give two shits about that.

There were a lot of reasons people did not support Clinton-including (but not limited to) his 'adjustment' of definitions to give McDonnell-Douglas a 'pass' for selling MIRV and guidance technology to the PRC, his Utah Land-Grab that only benefitted some Indonesian Coal-Operators (The Riati Family)-at the expense of American citizens, I might add... lots of small reasons that had nothing to do with Taxes.

Sounds reasonable. But, you never hear that from the rabid Republicans around here (here as in Texas). It's all about the taxes. It's mainly a matter of selfishness and greed, really.

Indubitably.

Quite.

well how are we defining "country"

does it mean "government"?

or simply the idea of the country?

if it's the government's actions, then of course i strongly disagree.

if you view the country as a sports team, however, yes i will always cheer for the united states to do well.

Discovery Times channel... the "Times" stands for "New York Times" right?

The New York Times is generally regarded as a liberal-biased newspaper.

(although certainly more credible than, say, moveon.org and democracynow...)

Disagree

I strongly disagree. I don't give a shit about my country. Burn in hell, fellow American scum! :p

Sounds reasonable. But, you never hear that from the rabid Republicans around here (here as in Texas). It's all about the taxes. It's mainly a matter of selfishness and greed, really.
There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting low taxes. You're only a bastard if you put your low taxes above keeping children alive and disabled people afloat, things like that, you know?

There's nothing inherently wrong with wanting low taxes. You're only a bastard if you put your low taxes above keeping children alive and disabled people afloat, things like that, you know?

Which is exactly what these people in my particular area do. It's all "me me ME". It's very sickening.

Hell, no.

Strongly disagree, for most of the reasons stated earlier. Plus one more: it seems ridiculous to support some government just because you were born in the piece of land it controls. Would some of these uber-nationalistic Americans support India if they were born there? Deciding who you support based on where you were born seems stupid to me.

God damn it son of a bitch! I clicked strongly agree when I wanted strongly disagree. I didn't look carefully :( . Now I look like a nationalist asshat.....
The government is usually the one that fucks us, so I strongly disagree.

Strongly disagree.

Agreed fully. In this modern world of immigration, multinationalism, etc. a county is no more than lines drawn on paper. The idea of supporting it without question is beyond me, including (but not limited to) the ultimate idiocy of dying for your country*

*Note: I make a distinction between dying for freedom (i.e. WWII but not WWI, and dying for your country (i.e. WWI, Vietnam, Iraq, etc.)

Edit to add: I also disagree because of Government. The leaders are people, and they mess up too. No sense supporting the wrong cause.

Question 2:

"I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong."

Uhhhhh... No?

Nazi Germany, Communist Russia?

Uhhhhh... No?

Nazi Germany, Communist Russia?

That's the idea. If you lived in Nazi Germany, would you support it just because it was your country and government? Same with America today, or any country for that matter.

That's the idea. If you lived in Nazi Germany, would you support it just because it was your country and government? Same with America today, or any country for that matter.


Exactly. I'm agreeing with you.

Strongly Disagree

And here's a very simple question to explain why: If you think something is wrong, why the hell would you support it?

Strongly Disagree.

Groupthink is a horrible social phenomena and has led to innumerable atrocities throughout the last several centuries.

I put strongly agree, as I do support my country whether right or wrong, but our country cannot be wrong.

I am making the distiction between country and government, here, by the way.

America is more than a collective mass of patriots and a few lines on a map, it is an idea. The Constitution is more than a document on a faded piece of parchment, it is America, defining it in clear terms.

America is also the American Dream -- where, through capitalism, hard work, and good values, can work your way to the top.

ALL of this -- the Consititution, the American Dream, the land we own, and the patriots -- make up America. No other nation has all of these things. America is special, it can't be defined as easily as all of the other nations.



Digressing, multiculturism defined in the US is bullcrap. A nation needs three essential things to survive:

Borders
Language
Culture

It's great that people want to remember and practice their own culture, but in America, you assimilate into ours, not segregate yourselves as so many seem to do. A nation cannot be at its fullest potential without a unified culture.

Strongly Disagree.

Groupthink is a horrible social phenomena and has led to innumerable atrocities throughout the last several centuries.
Agreed.

I put strongly agree, as I do support my country whether right or wrong, but our country cannot be wrong.

I am making the distiction between country and government, here, by the way.

America is more than a collective mass of patriots and a few lines on a map, it is an idea. The Constitution is more than a document on a faded piece of parchment, it is America, defining it in clear terms.

America is also the American Dream -- where, through capitalism, hard work, and good values, can work your way to the top.

ALL of this -- the Consititution, the American Dream, the land we own, and the patriots -- make up America. No other nation has all of these things. America is special, it can't be defined as easily as all of the other nations.



Digressing, multiculturism defined in the US is bullcrap. A nation needs three essential things to survive:

Borders
Language
Culture

It's great that people want to remember and practice their own culture, but in America, you assimilate into ours, not segregate yourselves as so many seem to do. A nation cannot be at its fullest potential without a unified culture.

Unified culture? How's that? Boston, Mass. has the same culture as Rubber Boot, Nev. Or perhaps you mean Walla Walla, Wash. has the same culture as Miami?

I'm curious by what you mean by "unified" culture.

Unified culture? How's that? Boston, Mass. has the same culture as Rubber Boot, Nev. Or perhaps you mean Walla Walla, Wash. has the same culture as Miami?

I'm curious by what you mean by "unified" culture.

Exactly what you said, actually -- you answered your own question.

"Multiculturalism" segregates cultures. It encourages people coming into America -- Middle/Far Easterns, Latin Americans, etc -- NOT to assimilate to America. To keep all aspects of their culture -- including their language -- and brush off the American culture and language.

If people come into America, they must adopt to us -- our culture, our language -- not we to them.

Exactly what you said, actually -- you answered your own question.

"Multiculturalism" segregates cultures. It encourages people coming into America -- Middle/Far Easterns, Latin Americans, etc -- NOT to assimilate to America. To keep all aspects of their culture -- including their language -- and brush off the American culture and language.

If people come into America, they must adopt to us -- our culture, our language -- not we to them.

Like European settlers did with Native Americans? Bad argumentative form buddy. But, it does seem that for you it's a language issue for you then.

Most, no ALL (but for an insignificant minority) of immigrants to any country want to learn the local language it shouldn't be an issue. If there are significant language issues in your locality you might want to see about some form of government subsidization of language education programs. Oh, and multiculturalism has worked fine in up here in Canada, very little ghettoization, none of which is permanent and almost no violent hate crimes.

Like European settlers did with Native Americans? Bad argumentative form buddy. But, it does seem that for you it's a language issue for you then.

If European settlers didn't do that to the Native Americans, the world would not have advanced anywhere, and neither you nor I would be here. Some things may be barbaric, but in the Greater Scheme of Things, they are necessary.

Most, not ALL (but for an insignificant minority) of immigrants to any country want to learn the local language -- it shouldn't be an issue.

I wish that were true in America.

If there are significant language issues in your locality you might want to see about some form of government subsidization of language education programs.

Not around here it isn't, know, thankfully. I'm concerned for my fellow Patriots down in the South and SouthWest.

And English classes to teach incoming immigrants are great, and I support them. But if the immigrants don't want to learn, get the hell out.

Oh, and multiculturalism has worked fine in up here in Canada, very little ghettoization, none of which is permanent and almost no violent hate crimes.

And THAT, my friend, is why there's that big red line on the map. Canada and the US have different cultures. Frankly, I don't mind ours, and I respect yours. But that's why there's that big red line on the map.

Otherwise we would have conquered you by now. :D :p (all in good fun)

(poll + text)
....."I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong."


It saddens me that nobody here can see that this is a loaded question - plus the fact that it is scored in the compass makes it grossly biased.

The fact is, the term 'support' and the subject of 'what' it is right or wrong about are completely missing.

Support could be the continuation of living in your country and paying taxes. It could be attending ralleys that suppport policy. It could be about attending ralleys that attempt to bring about positive change. (For example - In the US pro-life and pro-choice people all tend to 'support' the US, they just disagree with some policy or proposed changes to said policy.)

Which leads to the right/wrong factor. Right or wrong about what? About tax rates? About a war? About restricting development in envorinentally sensitive areas? About the textbooks used in school? There is nobody who could possibly be happy with everything about their country. Does that mean that they cannot support it at all?

And that leads to the loaded question / bias of the poll. I would presume that a positive answer leads to a conservative mark and a negative answer leads to a liberal mark. Considering that neither conservatives or liberals are 100% happy with every aspect of their country, this leads to a flawed result. If the results are taken with the question as a subjective querie, rather than definitive, it would imply, quite unfairly, that liberals are less patriotic of their nations. (unfairly implying that 'supporting' your country in sipte of disagreeing with some parts of it's policies is a conservative value)

I had hoped that more folks here were sharp enough to catch that.

Good point, B0zzy.

Strongly Agree.

I strongly support my country and my governmet. I will always defend for my country and I will always go to war for my country no matter what the reason is.

Posted by the Satanic Priest, Lord Medivh

Strongly disagree... Nationalism both sucks and blows.

Strongly disagree... Nationalism both sucks and blows.

True, but the question is... Does it suck first, or blow first?

If European settlers didn't do that to the Native Americans, the world would not have advanced anywhere, and neither you nor I would be here. Some things may be barbaric, but in the Greater Scheme of Things, they are necessary.
Exterminating people in the name of 'advancement' isn't a good justification either man. I'm sure Osama bin Laden has his own ideas about advancement and who should be exterminated, no one is going to agree with him either. Keep in mind European settlers weren't coming to North America for some great sociological 'advancement' they were escaping a worse situation in Europe. All this progress was unforseeable to all of the participants in the European settlement of NA whether slaughterer or slaughteree so even OBL could use it saying it'll all make sense in the grand scheme of things.
And English classes to teach incoming immigrants are great, and I support them. But if the immigrants don't want to learn, get the hell out. And THAT, my friend, is why there's that big red line on the map. Canada and the US have different cultures. Frankly, I don't mind ours, and I respect yours. But that's why there's that big red line on the map. Otherwise we would have conquered you by now. :D :p (all in good fun)
HA!! Your whole army, national guard and reserves are overseas!! Just be happy we don't invade you. :D

Exterminating people in the name of 'advancement' isn't a good justification either man. I'm sure Osama bin Laden has his own ideas about advancement and who should be exterminated, no one is going to agree with him either. Keep in mind European settlers weren't coming to North America for some great sociological 'advancement' they were escaping a worse situation in Europe. All this progress was unforseeable to all of the participants in the European settlement of NA whether slaughterer or slaughteree so even OBL could use it saying it'll all make sense in the grand scheme of things.

Do I like the extermination? No, I don't, nor do I condone it, but nasty things are sometimes necessary in the Greater Scheme of Things.

HA!! Your whole army, national guard and reserves are overseas!! Just be happy we don't invade you. :D

And you know what?

You'd lose.

Do you realize how much of our populus is armed to the teeth (me being one of them)? We have enough hunters in the US that we could hold of an army.

Good luck, you'll need it.

Good point, B0zzy.

They post and then don't follow up with a discussion. So far very few have noticed the flaw of the question. I have to believe that there are not so many shallow, reactionary people here. Somewhere...

Do I like the extermination? No, I don't, nor do I condone it, but nasty things are sometimes necessary in the Greater Scheme of Things.
Whoa!! I wasn't implying that you were in favour of a very nearly successful genocide. If it came across that way I apologise and will endeavor to ensure that my future posts don't repeat the mistake. I was stating that arguing genocide for the future good (greater scheme of things) isn't a viable argument since no one can predict what course the future will take, that everyone has different perspectives about what progress actually entails and really no one who participated in that version -victims or aggressors- were doing so for progress' sake.

And you know what?
You'd lose.
Do you realize how much of our populus is armed to the teeth (me being one of them)? We have enough hunters in the US that we could hold of an army.
Good luck, you'll need it.

No need to get up in arms buddy! Ha! Pun and I didn't even mean it! You made a joke and I was responding in kind.

We'll just wait for moose and bear hunting season when all your hunters are up here anyways - then make our move.

They post and then don't follow up with a discussion. So far very few have noticed the flaw of the question. I have to believe that there are not so many shallow, reactionary people here. Somewhere...

Or you could assume that we decided to answer the question in whatever frame of reference we decided was appropriate.

From my perspective "My country, right or wrong" is a classic tagline used by ultra nationalists to justify state atrocities. Others interpreted it as an endorsement of their countries constitution and a call to defence of the nation if it's under attack.

The point, B0zzy is that we logged our votes and then posted them along with the reasons for doing so and engaged in debate.

We didn't adopt a sanctimonious, condescending attitude and universally dismiss all the posters on this thread.

Which is the shallow, reactionary response?

Whoa!! I wasn't implying that you were in favour of a very nearly successful genocide. If it came across that way I apologise and will endeavor to ensure that my future posts don't repeat the mistake. I was stating that arguing genocide for the future good (greater scheme of things) isn't a viable argument since no one can predict what course the future will take, that everyone has different perspectives about what progress actually entails and really no one who participated in that version -victims or aggressors- were doing so for progress' sake.

Do you believe in an omnipotent God? I do. That's what I mean by the Greater Scheme of Things -- His Divine Plan. Us mortals are mere pawns, but some are promoted to rooks, knights, and bishops.

No need to get up in arms buddy! Ha! Pun and I didn't even mean it! You made a joke and I was responding in kind.

We'll just wait for moose and bear hunting season when all your hunters are up here anyways - then make our move.

I know. :D

Go ahead. We've still got a decent amount of National Guard and REserve troops over here, plus not ALL hunters go to Canada.