NationStates Jolt Archive

...I doubt he wants us sniffing his ass all day. Is church really nessesary? He's supposed to have given us the gift of life! If this is so, then why not just enjoy it! Stop being bossed around by the church, the synagogue, the mosque, the whatever you use - Just follow the basic moral rules, and live life to the full.

If he exists, then we've lost nothing and i'm sure he'll welcome us into heaven\The afterlife\whatever with open arms. If not, then again, we've lost nothing, and return to the oblivion from wence we came. We must let ourselves enjoy life, live it all the way through, and then die with pride and dignity, knowing that we did not waste this most precious gift, the gift of life.

Break free of the chains of servitude and endless worship, and get out there to enjoy life.

-The TIN man, long-time agnostic

Christ did dictate that a church be formed. That said, I doubt He would proscribe attending every day, twelve times a day, for example. Church should help clarify and expand your beliefs. If it doesn't, it's usually a fault on the side of the listener, or perhaps an ineffective pastor. But if you gain in your studies on it, I wouldn't think a few hours a week excessive.

Christ did dictate that a church be formed. That said, I doubt He would proscribe attending every day, twelve times a day, for example. Church should help clarify and expand your beliefs. If it doesn't, it's usually a fault on the side of the listener, or perhaps an ineffective pastor. But if you gain in your studies on it, I wouldn't think a few hours a week excessive.

I don't care what the church says. I really don't think god wants us kissing his ass every sunday. He's got better things to do... people to meet, souls to create, lottery tickets to check on Ceefax...

Poettarrarorincoaroac, your argument only works if one is a Christian. If one is not a Christian, then it just doesn't.

Just thought I 'd point out that little flaw in p's argument. Not intended as a troll or flamebait in any way. I have no position on the matter.

i agree. its not the church, or the ceremonies, the traditions or the rituals, its the morality that should be taken out of religion.
i think many religious people forget that and just see following the church as duty, and think little of the morality behind it all. some people 'walk the walk, but don't talk the talk', if you get what i mean.

If, by chance, he/she/it does exist, and does indeed want us sniffing his/her/its ass, what does that say about god's mental state anyway?

...I doubt he wants us sniffing his ass all day. Is church really nessesary? He's supposed to have given us the gift of life! If this is so, then why not just enjoy it! Stop being bossed around by the church, the synagogue, the mosque, the whatever you use - Just follow the basic moral rules, and live life to the full.

If he exists, then we've lost nothing and i'm sure he'll welcome us into heaven\The afterlife\whatever with open arms. If not, then again, we've lost nothing, and return to the oblivion from wence we came. We must let ourselves enjoy life, live it all the way through, and then die with pride and dignity, knowing that we did not waste this most precious gift, the gift of life.

Break free of the chains of servitude and endless worship, and get out there to enjoy life.

-The TIN man, long-time agnostic

Thank you! I believe in God, but I doubt he would want us worshiping him on a regular basis. He probably doesn't like it.

God: (looks down) Oh come on! They're worshiping me again? Get a life!

To be fair, there are quite a few churches that aren't good, who are focussed on an "us vs them" mentality, who put to much emphasis on rule-keeping rather than transformed lives, or alternatively espouse an "anything goes" philosophy or bow to the pressures of the culture to try to achieve popularity.

I am kinda confused as why I am not enjoying life. It is an interesting line of logic: if God exists, live like He doesn't...

Come to think of it, TIN comes very close to being a preachy, fundamentalist agnostic. Very interesting...

If, by chance, he/she/it does exist, and does indeed want us sniffing his/her/its ass, what does that say about god's mental state anyway?

Perhaps nothing. Perhaps it says something about our mental state, specifically that God knows our frailty and suggests we collaborate in common purpose of our souls' salvation. That's speculation, of course, as the NT doesn't, I don't think, proscribe "X" number of hours a week to be set aside for worship. It could also mean that Christ was merely instructing his disciples to set aside a haven for discussion of His message, rather than a place to listen to a clergy speak.

Poettarrarorincoaroac, your argument only works if one is a Christian. If one is not a Christian, then it just doesn't.

Just thought I 'd point out that little flaw in p's argument. Not intended as a troll or flamebait in any way. I have no position on the matter.

It's a possible explaination, not an attempt at a categorical or universal answer. It's speculation, most of all.

There is a thick line between religion and spirituality. Religion is a cult, a repeated ritual that people confine themselves to that has little true spiritual meaning, and is only a factor of control by society. Its only another schizm that separates people from eachother and creates bias, not to mention that many, but not all, written word commonly used in churches were manipulated and reworded the way the manipulator pleased, and is not the sincere true form. Spirituality is the true belief of whatever diety or philosophy you follow, with no relation to the money based, corrupted forms of religion. it is the sincere feeling of trust in your faith and the real appreciation of the values and meanings of it.

Christians, I'm afraid the Jews got it right.

That tells you all you need to know!

There is a thick line between religion and spirituality. Religion is a cult, a repeated ritual that people confine themselves to that has little true spiritual meaning, and is only a factor of control by society. Its only another schizm that separates people from eachother and creates bias, not to mention that many, but not all, written word commonly used in churches were manipulated and reworded the way the manipulator pleased, and is not the sincere true form. Spirituality is the true belief of whatever diety or philosophy you follow, with no relation to the money based, corrupted forms of religion. it is the sincere feeling of trust in your faith and the real appreciation of the values and meanings of it.

Churches may be conduits to greater spirituality in any case. Unless you believe introspection is sufficient for all spiritual knowledge, you may find it beneficial to seek out and gather with others of your faith. This would be a Church. You're assuming corruption which may not exist.

Is church really nessesary? He's supposed to have given us the gift of life! If this is so, then why not just enjoy it! Stop being bossed around by the church, the synagogue, the mosque, the whatever you use - Just follow the basic moral rules, and live life to the full.

It depends how you define church.
Many people define the word "church" in terms of buildings, or clergy, or a religious institution. I think that the Greek word "ekklesia" (translated as "church" in most English Bible translations) means "assembly", i.e. a gathered group of citizens.
I think "church" is supposed to be a community focused on Jesus Christ. Since I don't believe that people can meet God's moral standards (which are positive, involving doing good, as well as negative, avoiding evil) without God's direct help, then one of the functions of "church" is to help people learn HOW to "follow the basic moral rules" and even go beyond them, to live profoundly good lives.
Some say that they can serve God and worship Him without being in community with others doing the same. It's a sign of the individualistic nature of Western society that people think they don't need the help of others, and that they're not responsible for helping others in turn.
Jesus came to bring "life to the full" (John 10:10). If individual church communities don't help people in this area, they need to change the way they do things.


Break free of the chains of servitude and endless worship, and get out there to enjoy life.

The above sentence makes no sense to me. One of the most enjoyable things about my life is that I get to serve people, to help them without being domineering or controlling. Also, I intend that the whole of my life, both now and forever, be worship to God, and I believe this is the most basic thing that humans do. There are plenty of physical, mental, emotional and psychological addictions that are chains on people's lives; worship and service bring freedom, not slavery.

The above sentence makes no sense to me. One of the most enjoyable things about my life is that I get to serve people, to help them without being domineering or controlling. Also, I intend that the whole of my life, both now and forever, be worship to God, and I believe this is the most basic thing that humans do. There are plenty of physical, mental, emotional and psychological addictions that are chains on people's lives; worship and service bring freedom, not slavery.

In turn that makes no sense to me. I see worshiping as boring. And I don't think he made us to be bored. If he wanted to be worshiped he would tell us directly. If he does want to be worshiped, then he just has a huge ego trip problem.

I serve my family and my family alone. No one else is the boss of me.

It depends how you define church.
Many people define the word "church" in terms of buildings, or clergy, or a religious institution. I think that the Greek word "ekklesia" (translated as "church" in most English Bible translations) means "assembly", i.e. a gathered group of citizens.
I think "church" is supposed to be a community focused on Jesus Christ. Since I don't believe that people can meet God's moral standards (which are positive, involving doing good, as well as negative, avoiding evil) without God's direct help, then one of the functions of "church" is to help people learn HOW to "follow the basic moral rules" and even go beyond them, to live profoundly good lives.
If someone else has to teach you how to worship/love/be moral, then you're not doing it right.

If god exists, and I don't think it does, what makes you think it even cares about humans? We might be about as significant to god as a collony of ants in our garden is to us. Or perhaps we are just like livestock to god. We exist to be used for some purpose and destroyed when our purpose is fulfilled. Kind of gives new meaning to the "shepard" analogy.

If god exists, and I don't think it does, what makes you think it even cares about humans? We might be about as significant to god as a collony of ants in our garden is to us. Or perhaps we are just like livestock to god. We exist to be used for some purpose and destroyed when our purpose is fulfilled. Kind of gives new meaning to the "shepard" analogy.
Or perhaps all life-forms are equally important to god.

Here is an argument against God from Bruce Russell:
God is defined as being omniscient, omnipotent, morally perfect, and all-loving.
This means: God knows everything, can do anything he wants, loves everyone, and cannot act immorally.
There are hundreds of thousands of cases of extreme unnecessary moral suffering every year in the U.S. alone. Two real life examples, on 26 January 1983 an eleven year old girl was kidneapped raped and then tortured until death by an injection of automotive battery acid. A two year old girl named Ariana Swinson was beaten until unconscious by her parents and then drown while unconscious. She had a 4 inch skull fracture, a broken arm, her ears and lips were torn half from her body, and when found she had lost half her blood. (Her parents coached the other two children to take the blame.)
By extreme unnecessary moral suffering is meant suffering that is beyond acceptable limits, does not need to occur, and is morally unjustifiable.
Anyone in a position to know about these actions is morally obligated to intervene and prevent to stop these actions. For example, if the Ariana's neighbor had witnessed her brutal beating through his kitchen window he would have been morally obligated to intervene by at least calling the police.
God, by definition, knows about these actions.
Therefore, God is morally obligated to intervene.
God did not intervene (death does not count as intervention and prevention).
Therefore, either God does not exist or God does exist but acts unethically just as the neighbor would have acted unethically if he had witnessed Ariana's beating but failed to call the police. The simpler answer is that God does not exist.

It's not possible for worship to be boring. If you truly adore someone, telling them so isn't boring. Being in their presence and feeling the feelings that come with that is not boring. If you say that worship is boring, I must conclude that you've never actually done it. A "worship service" can be boring. Actual worship isn't.

Here is an argument against God from Bruce Russell:
God is defined as being omniscient, omnipotent, morally perfect, and all-loving.
This means: God knows everything, can do anything he wants, loves everyone, and cannot act immorally.
There are hundreds of thousands of cases of extreme unnecessary moral suffering every year in the U.S. alone. Two real life examples, on 26 January 1983 an eleven year old girl was kidneapped raped and then tortured until death by an injection of automotive battery acid. A two year old girl named Ariana Swinson was beaten until unconscious by here parents and then drown while unconscious. She had a 4 inch skull fracture, a broken arm, her years are lips were torn half from her body, and when found she had lost half her blood. (Her parents coached the other two children to take the blame.)
By extreme unnecessary moral suffering is meant suffering that is beyond acceptable limits, does not need to occur, and is morally unjustifiable.
Anyone in a position to know about these actions is morally obligated to intervene and prevent to stop these actions. For example, if the Ariana's neighbor had witnessed her brutal beating through his kitchen window he would have been morally obligated to intervene by at least calling the police.
God, by definition, knows about these actions.
Therefore, God is morally obligated to intervene.
God did not intervene (death does not count as intervention and prevention).
Therefore, either God does not exist or God does exist but acts unethically just as the neighbor would have acted unethically if he had witnessed Ariana's beating but failed to call the police. The simpler answer is that God does not exist.


Hellooooooo, false dilemma fallacy.

(I should have proofread)

It's not possible for worship to be boring. If you truly adore someone, telling them so isn't boring. Being in their presence and feeling the feelings that come with that is not boring. If you say that worship is boring, I must conclude that you've never actually done it. A "worship service" can be boring. Actual worship isn't.

Thats not Admiration-Thats Brain washing. Sometimes blind faith does not work. you MUST question your surroundings-look at all the evidence.

So far there is not enough evidence for me to swing either way. Therefore i'm gonna go through life, die, and see what happens.

Explain the false dilemma. What other options are available? You need to do more than just assert an informal fallacy. You can do that with formal fallacies but not any informal fallacy, especially a false dilemma.

Explain the false dilemma. What other options are available? You need to do more than just assert an informal fallacy. You can do that with formal fallacies but not any informal fallacy, especially a false dilemma.
It's called Denial. Blind faith is a major weakness. You've got to have an open mind, rather than disregard all the facts. The same goes for you, too. Stop beliving either way. Blind belief is a poor way to live.

Just keep looking around-there's evidence to support both sides everywhere. Adopt a life of the Agnostic. Believe nothing.

...I doubt he wants us sniffing his ass all day.

Hey, I see where you get your reputation now, TIN. The image you just put in my head was... well, there's no other word for it than disturbing, really :D.

Hellooooooo, false dilemma fallacy.

So are you saying that God does exist but does not act unethically? If this is the assertion, then you must explain how raping and injecting an 11 year old girl with battery acid, or beating your two year old daughter until unconscious and then drowning her is morally permissible.

That would be a third option. I see no fourth option at all.

Hey, I see where you get your reputation now, TIN. The image you just put in my head was... well, there's no other word for it than disturbing, really :D.

Hey, at least we're not in Hobogen.

It's called Denial. Blind faith is a major weakness. You've got to have an open mind, rather than disregard all the facts. The same goes for you, too. Stop beliving either way. Blind belief is a poor way to live.

Just keep looking around-there's evidence to support both sides everywhere. Adopt a life of the Agnostic. Believe nothing.

This is not pointing out a false dillema. You miss the point of the argument completely. If we accept the standard Judeo-Christian definition of God, this definition rules out the ocurrence of these extreme immoral events. After all, Jesus did give special protection to children: "The children belong unto me". These real life examples point out a failure of protection. You are actually using blind faith of a special sort to remain agnostic. What potential evidence could be given that God might exist that would account for these horrendous events? Bruce Russell says none.

I see worshiping as boring. And I don't think he made us to be bored. If he wanted to be worshiped he would tell us directly. If he does want to be worshiped, then he just has a huge ego trip problem.

I serve my family and my family alone. No one else is the boss of me.
Upper Cet Kola Ytovia has sort of just made my point for me. I define "worship", not as the saying of specific prayers, or the singing of specific songs. I define "worship" in terms of focus.
The person or thing that I worship is the person or thing that is the focus of my attention, my use of time, my money, my energy. I suggest that we all worship someone or something, all the time we're awake, and that what God asks us is to do that towards him (and he DOES tell us directly in the Bible e.g. Deuteronomy 6:13, John 4:23).
The "ego trip" criticism is missing the point. God is not telling us to worship Him because it's good for Him, He's telling us to worship Him because it's good for us. We are totally dependent on God for our existence, and acknowledging that and seeking close relationship with Him, which He longs to have with each of us, is the best thing any of us can do.

I'm a firm respecter of peoples beliefs, and if you choose to belive in a supreme being that created the universe, then be my guest. I won't get in your way. I just hate religions that try to force their beliefs down your throat.

You may continue to belive what you wish, but only in death do we learn the truth.

It could even turn out the universe was made by an all-poweful great Cucumber... :D

The "ego trip" criticism is missing the point. God is not telling us to worship Him because it's good for Him, He's telling us to worship Him because it's good for us. We are totally dependent on God for our existence, and acknowledging that and seeking close relationship with Him, which He longs to have with each of us, is the best thing any of us can do.
Tell, that to Arianna Swinson and the 11 year old girl injected with battery acid. Your comment implies God wanted these children to die. Why did they have to die in that capacity? So the police can catch the child rapist and murder and society can see what shit parents Ariana had? So these children are tools for God for some other person's end like a chainsaw is a tool for the lumberjack?

You may continue to belive what you wish, but only in death do we learn the truth.
As a truism, that has amusing implications for atheists. ;)

I serve my family and my family alone. No one else is the boss of me.

Worship isn't the only form of service. Merely following God's command is service in an equally-important way. If under no circumstance you serve anyone but yourself and your friends, that would reach far beyond church attendance. That would proclude you from any following of divine law in any case. Your objection then has little or nothing to do with Church attendance.

Explain the false dilemma. What other options are available? You need to do more than just assert an informal fallacy. You can do that with formal fallacies but not any informal fallacy, especially a false dilemma.
The false dilemma arises from the fact that Bruce Russell has defined God as omnipotent in a way that the Bible does not do.
The interaction between God's sovereignty and human decisions is unclear in the Bible, and Christians have argued about this issue for centuries. Bruce Russell's ability to take a simplistic view of God's power and restraint does not damage my faith in God, but my faith in Bruce Russell's intellectual integrity.
I believe God lets people make bad decisions even if those decisions cause suffering to others. Russell's definition of "extreme unnecessary moral suffering" is created solely to prove his point; he feels happy saying that child abuse is extreme unnecessary moral suffering, but would probably say that reasonable exceptions could be made in the case of his own moral failings (possible examples include unkind thoughts about someone who cuts you off while driving, or knowingly buying from a company with poor human rights records overseas).

Thats not Admiration-Thats Brain washing. Sometimes blind faith does not work. you MUST question your surroundings-look at all the evidence.

So far there is not enough evidence for me to swing either way. Therefore i'm gonna go through life, die, and see what happens.

So which is it? You tell me to not believe in God because of "all the evidence", then turn around and say there's a lack of evidence (as far as you can see) either way. If you do not have evidence, then on what basis do you presume to tell me what to do?

And puh-lease, do some actual research on brain-washing before using that ridiculous charge. Seriously, brain-washing on the level you're suggesting only works on television.

Please, stop being such a fundamentalist.

Explain the false dilemma. What other options are available?

Other options:

1. God, being God, is not bound by the same rules that govern the conduct of us mere humans.

2. God may have other purposes other than "make us all happy and safe" which supercede momentary and individual concerns.

3. A tragedy in one life may have a ripple effect that causes good in other lives, or spurs many people to do good.

4. God may be punishing humanity for turning our back on Him and wanting to live our lives without His "interference" by...giving us exactly what we asked for.

There's some possibilities.

This is getting to serious. In light of my loony ways, I introduce humor.

http://asil.logicalinsanity.ca/journey/smite.JPG

Please, stop being such a fundamentalist.

Oh no, i'm more of the Loonasist kind. And I put the FUN in Fundimental!

But seriously you guys need to cut down to one cup a day. Also, if I respect your beliefs, please respect mine. Or I will be forced to laugh at you, and sell my Kindney stones on E-bay.

I'm a firm respecter of peoples beliefs, and if you choose to belive in a supreme being that created the universe, then be my guest. I won't get in your way. I just hate religions that try to force their beliefs down your throat.

And yet you have no compunctions about forcing your beliefs down other people's throats...

If someone else has to teach you how to worship/love/be moral, then you're not doing it right.
Exactly, I'm not doing any of these things right yet. My fellow Christians and I that are members of my church are attempting to learn together how to worship God fully, how to love each other without conditions, and how to live by all of God's moral standards.

Do you really you believe that no one else has anything to teach you on the subjects of worship, love, and morality?

The false dilemma arises from the fact that Bruce Russell has defined God as omnipotent in a way that the Bible does not do.
The interaction between God's sovereignty and human decisions is unclear in the Bible, and Christians have argued about this issue for centuries. Bruce Russell's ability to take a simplistic view of God's power and restraint does not damage my faith in God, but my faith in Bruce Russell's intellectual integrity.
I believe God lets people make bad decisions even if those decisions cause suffering to others. Russell's definition of "extreme unnecessary moral suffering" is created solely to prove his point; he feels happy saying that child abuse is extreme unnecessary moral suffering, but would probably say that reasonable exceptions could be made in the case of his own moral failings (possible examples include unkind thoughts about someone who cuts you off while driving, or knowingly buying from a company with poor human rights records overseas).
He gets his defintion from Aquinas, Aquistine, Iraneas, Benedict, John Hick, Alvin Plantigna, etc.

Your unkind thoughts example he would not classify as extreme. Your comment means that injecting a 11 year old girl with battery acid is not a horrendous act (extreme) but is no more worse than stealing bubble gum for the convenience store. The Bible does say that all immoral acts are equal in the eyes of God. So stealing bubble gum is no more worse than injecting a 11 year old girl with battery acid. The Bible does have two classes of sins: deadly (7) and nondeadly. Ironically injecting an 11 year old girl with battery acid is not a deadly sin. Raping her might be, it depends on if it was done from lust versus power and authority.

And yet you have no compunctions about forcing your beliefs down other people's throats...

I'm not. I'm telling you how I see it. You have the choice to say no. It's the ones who don't quit that annoy me. Give it one go-if they say no, then leave them be. Obviously you guys are saying no, so I will not bother you further.

Now, where did I put that vodoo doll...? :D

One thing I find most amusing is that everyone refers to god as "He"... if 'it' is a supreme being, it should be neither sex, as he has no need for reproductive organs. :D

Ah well, time to listen to the Megas XLR theme tune again...

So which is it? You tell me to not believe in God because of "all the evidence", then turn around and say there's a lack of evidence (as far as you can see) either way. If you do not have evidence, then on what basis do you presume to tell me what to do?

And puh-lease, do some actual research on brain-washing before using that ridiculous charge. Seriously, brain-washing on the level you're suggesting only works on television.

Please, stop being such a fundamentalist.



Other options:

1. God, being God, is not bound by the same rules that govern the conduct of us mere humans.

2. God may have other purposes other than "make us all happy and safe" which supercede momentary and individual concerns.

3. A tragedy in one life may have a ripple effect that causes good in other lives, or spurs many people to do good.

4. God may be punishing humanity for turning our back on Him and wanting to live our lives without His "interference" by...giving us exactly what we asked for.

There's some possibilities.
regarding your list of shit:
#1 read Richard Swinburn who makes this argument. If ethics comes from God then is God bound by his own code? Is God not bound to protect the children that he claims "belong unto him"?

#2 Implies there is a purpose for injecting a 11 year old girl with battery acid. What purpose could that be and for whom? The eleven year old girl? So she can go to heaven? Why does injecting her with battery acid need to be her vehicle of death?

#3 Is reincarnation and I will set that aside.

#4 God is punishing an 11 year old girl by injecting with battery acid because people download music off the internet for example?

I suggest you start thinking and stop repeating shit you have been taught in church.

I don't care what the church says. I really don't think god wants us kissing his ass every sunday. He's got better things to do... people to meet, souls to create, lottery tickets to check on Ceefax...

it's not just the Church that says that, it is in the Bible. Before Jesus ascended into Heaven, he told his apostles to create a place to continue preaching his message. If you want to get technical, it is Church tradition that the first Pope was Peter, but other denominations don't necesarily see it that way.

Peace be with you

Peace be with you
Thats used everywhere, even in my life. May peace be with you too. Even if we do not share the same beliefs, a life of living by morals is a good way to live. My own morals are very strict. I refuse to cause suffering to anyone. ;)

regarding your list of shit:
#1 read Richard Swinburn who makes this argument. If ethics comes from God then is God bound by his own code? Is God not bound to protect the children that he claims "belong unto him"?

#2 Implies there is a purpose for injecting a 11 year old girl with battery acid. What purpose could that be and for whom? The eleven year old girl? So she can go to heaven? Why does injecting her with battery acid need to be her vehicle of death?

#3 Is reincarnation and I will set that aside.

#4 God is punishing an 11 year old girl by injecting with battery acid because people download music off the internet for example?

I suggest you start thinking and stop repeating shit you have been taught in church.

HEY HEY HEY! No flaming in my thread.

He gets his defintion from Aquinas, Aquistine, Iraneas, Benedict, John Hick, Alvin Plantigna, etc.

Your unkind thoughts example he would not classify as extreme. Your comment means that injecting a 11 year old girl with battery acid is not a horrendous act (extreme) but is no more worse than stealing bubble gum for the convenience store. The Bible does say that all immoral acts are equal in the eyes of God. So stealing bubble gum is no more worse than injecting a 11 year old girl with battery acid. The Bible does have two classes of sins: deadly (7) and nondeadly. Ironically injecting an 11 year old girl with battery acid is not a deadly sin. Raping her might be, it depends on if it was done from lust versus power and authority.
I consider all things written by someone after the first century A.D. about God to be speculative unless they are supported by the Bible.
Medieval Catholic theology is not binding on my thinking about God. Catholic definitions of mortal and venial sins are not necessarily accurate, or even relevant.
Sorry I can't say more, I've got to go. I'll try to check this thread later.
:)

Ok, sorry.

Keep in mind, I am "answering" your questions.
Yes, I am a Christian... so my answers are based on my beliefs.
If you did want to hear a response to them, you wouldn't have brought up the subject. :D

...I doubt he wants us sniffing his ass all day.
Not literally. :rolleyes: He created us to be His friends. He loves our friendship, He desires for us to commune with Him.
Is church really nessesary?
Yes, He said, ". . .and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near." Hebrews 10:24-25
He's supposed to have given us the gift of life! If this is so, then why not just enjoy it!
Jesus said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10
When you follow God and do it right, life is most enjoyable.
Stop being bossed around by the church, the synagogue, the mosque, the whatever you use - Just follow the basic moral rules, and live life to the full.
I agree with the first part... don't be bossed around by man or a church. Let God be your boss. Men and "religion" will fail you. Jesus never fails.
If he exists, then we've lost nothing and i'm sure he'll welcome us into heaven\The afterlife\whatever with open arms.
Not true. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3
If not, then again, we've lost nothing, and return to the oblivion from wence we came. We must let ourselves enjoy life, live it all the way through, and then die with pride and dignity, knowing that we did not waste this most precious gift, the gift of life.
Not true. See the above Bible reference.
If you are not saved by Jesus before you die. You will not go to heaven.
You will have a Christ-less eternity. God put eternity in the hearts of men.
Most if not all wonder what is going to happen after they die.
Break free of the chains of servitude and endless worship, and get out there to enjoy life.
Sure yeah... you don't have to follow God or serve Him.
But, if you choose not to believe and don't serve Him.
Then you will have your "reward".
I worship God and follow Him, and I have a wonderfully, enjoyable life.
More so than my husband who chooses not to follow God.
He is full of anger, hatred, pain, joblessness, sickness, misery, etc.
I would choose my life a hundred times over his.
And have a Christ-filled eternity. :cool:

Ok, sorry.

Glad to see you learned your lesson.

Sure yeah... you don't have to follow God or serve Him.
But, if you choose not to believe and don't serve Him.
Then you will have your "reward".
I worship God and follow Him, and I have a wonderfully, enjoyable life.
More so than my husband who chooses not to follow God.
He is full of anger, hatred, pain, joblessness, sickness, misery, etc.
I would choose my life a hundred times over his.
And have a Christ-filled eternity. :cool:

FYI: This statistic has been reconfirmed for over 50 years. Un/undereducated people tend to be more devout than people with college degrees. The higher one's degree the less religious (and devout) people are statistically. Poor people tend to be more devout than wealthy people. Of course education and wealth tend to go together. They defined "religious" in terms of church attendance because they needed a somewhat objective standard. They recognize that this definition has problems but no other objective definition is possible. "Devout" was defined as people who attend church an average of twice a week.

So it seems that getting the "rewards" makes Christianity into a lottery religion. No wonder they oppose gambling and education lotteries in the South. (Just some humor here.)

Not literally. :rolleyes: He created us to be His friends. He loves our friendship, He desires for us to commune with Him.

That makes sense.

Yes, He said, ". . .and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more, as you see the day drawing near." Hebrews 10:24-25

There is no proof that the bible is true. No one even knows where it came from. Or who wrote it.

Jesus said, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10
When you follow God and do it right, life is most enjoyable.

Again, da bible. And I disagree. Life is enjoyable Regardless... unless you are murdered by a madman with an axe. :D Just an example. But if you feel that following god is the right thing, then follow your heart.

I agree with the first part... don't be bossed around by man or a church. Let God be your boss. Men and "religion" will fail you. Jesus never fails.

But Jesus comes from the bible - which comes from churches. You keep forgetting this.

Not true. "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3

Yet again, the bible. You are trusting somthing that came from the church, and most likely has been changed to suit the church over the past 2000 years.

Not true. See the above Bible reference.
If you are not saved by Jesus before you die. You will not go to heaven.
You will have a Christ-less eternity. God put eternity in the hearts of men.
Most if not all wonder what is going to happen after they die.

The bible AGAIN. This was most likely added to make sure people attend church-and so they behave for the good king.

Sure yeah... you don't have to follow God or serve Him.
But, if you choose not to believe and don't serve Him.
Then you will have your "reward".
I worship God and follow Him, and I have a wonderfully, enjoyable life.
More so than my husband who chooses not to follow God.
He is full of anger, hatred, pain, joblessness, sickness, misery, etc.
I would choose my life a hundred times over his.
And have a Christ-filled eternity. :cool:

Whatever happens, I do hope you enjoy your life.

Life is what YOU make it, not what people tell you to make it. Don't let people force their beliefs on you. Not even me. (Sorry if I seem to be, but it's in my nature.) Do what YOU feel is right, what you see as the purpose of life. If you don't, your life will be empty and pointless. And you don't want to waste this life.

Peace and love to ya my man. ;)

Or perhaps all life-forms are equally important to god.
Yeah, perhaps whatever. There's no way of knowing short of a god appearing to us and making it's thoughts clear. Until then, there are too many possibilities and no way of choosing one over any of the others.

Yeah, perhaps whatever. There's no way of knowing short of a god appearing to us and making it's thoughts clear. Until then, there are too many possibilities and no way of choosing one over any of the others.

Thats the sort of thing I mean. If god really exists, i'm sure he'll understand the fact that I can't choose any one religion. There's too much risk of going to one of the many forms of hell. :D

Here is an argument against God from Bruce Russell:
God is defined as being omniscient, omnipotent, morally perfect, and all-loving.
This means: God knows everything, can do anything he wants, loves everyone, and cannot act immorally.
There are hundreds of thousands of cases of extreme unnecessary moral suffering every year in the U.S. alone. Two real life examples <snip>
By extreme unnecessary moral suffering is meant suffering that is beyond acceptable limits, does not need to occur, and is morally unjustifiable.
Anyone in a position to know about these actions is morally obligated to intervene and prevent to stop these actions. For example, if the Ariana's neighbor had witnessed her brutal beating through his kitchen window he would have been morally obligated to intervene by at least calling the police.
God, by definition, knows about these actions. Therefore, God is morally obligated to intervene. The simpler answer is that God does not exist.

First, note that "MEN" did those things and do those things.

With that being said... Where should God's intervening stop?
Sin is sin... So, if God stops men from killing and torturing...
He must then also stop ALL evil-doing. Right?
Would you let God stop you (anyone here) from stealing? How about Lying? How about having sex outside of marriage? How about cursing His name?? If God stops one sin... He must stop them all, because where could you (He) ever draw the line?

First, note that "MEN" did those things and do those things.

With that being said... Where should God's intervening stop?
Sin is sin... So, if God stops men from killing and torturing...
He must then also stop ALL evil-doing. Right?
Would you let God stop you (anyone here) from stealing? How about Lying? How about having sex outside of marriage? How about cursing His name?? If God stops one sin... He must stop them all, because where could you (He) ever draw the line?

He's right-God (if he exists) did give us the ability of free will - If he takes that away then he's contradicting himself. He has to let us be.

Peace and love to ya my man. ;)
Peace back at ya! :D
Nice to know we can peacefully disagree... I respect you for that. :)
BTW... I am female... not male. LOL.

He's right-God (if he exists) did give us the ability of free will - If he takes that away then he's contradicting himself. He has to let us be.
Exactly! And, I agree. Sadly enough tho...
Being robots would be a heckuva lot easier. :rolleyes: LOL.

Peace back at ya! :D
Nice to know we can peacefully disagree... I respect you for that. :)
BTW... I am female... not male. LOL.

I like to be peaceful with the ladies... :D

Glad to see we have an understanding. And I hope we can have some amusing conversation in future.

First, note that "MEN" did those things and do those things.

With that being said... Where should God's intervening stop?
Sin is sin... So, if God stops men from killing and torturing...
He must then also stop ALL evil-doing. Right?
Would you let God stop you (anyone here) from stealing? How about Lying? How about having sex outside of marriage? How about cursing His name?? If God stops one sin... He must stop them all, because where could you (He) ever draw the line?
You committ the slippery slope fallacy. Russell says God is not morally obligated to stop the examples you give. After all stopping suffering prevents the good that comes from it. For example, prevent a tornado prevent the town coming together which can rebuild personal relationships. Russell says that there is a clear line to be drawn. That line is where no good can from the action for the person who suffered. No good can come from an 11 year old being injected with automotive battery acid for that 11 year old girl. Any good that results is for someone other than the little girl. So, if you defend your line of arguing then you are forced to believe that we are tools for other people. God uses people as tools for other people. God used the 11 year old girl as a tool to someone else's good. The girl has no value in-and-of-herself. Her value is in relation to the good she brings for others. So she mush be tortured and raped so that someone else may benefit.

Anyone who attempt to defend God against these cases has some serious work for them. I, personally, view any such attempts to be signs of moral infancy. I will not defend my view. I am offering Russells arguments to help you people think about your juvenile beliefs. I use "juvenile" to denote cognitive and moral development, not as an insult.

You really should stop listening to russel. He'll rot your brain. :D

He's right-God (if he exists) did give us the ability of free will - If he takes that away then he's contradicting himself. He has to let us be.
This line of reasoning comes from Iraneas, Benedict, John Hick, and Alvin Plantigna.

God could allow free will but intervene. Does the neighbor stop the free will of Ariana's parents by calling the police? NO! God could make an anyonymous phone call to the police if there are no human witnesses. He can still allow free will and intervene just like we are not preventing free will by reporting crimes in progress. They can still form the intent, begin to carry out that action but then God intervenes in some way, makes an anonymous phone call to 911, sends an angel in human form, etc.

I believe that these word by Donald Miller (in his book Blue Like Jazz, chapter 10, page 103 to be more precise) are germane to the conversation.

My most recent faith struggle is not one of intellect. I don't really do that anymore. Sooner or later you just figure out there are some guys who don't believe in God and they can prove He doesn't exist, and some other guys who do believe in God and they can prove He does exist, and the argument stopped being about God a long time ago and now it's about who is smarter, and honestly I don't care.

I believe that these word by Donald Miller (in his book Blue Like Jazz, chapter 10, page 103 to be more precise) are germane to the conversation.
This is a creative way to maintain your blind faith and admit your ignorant simultaneously. To give Miller some credit maybe he has faith like C.S. Lewis: faith as a special kind of familial love. See "On obstinacy in Belief" from his posthumous book The World's Last Night.

It has been fun. Later.

Thats used everywhere, even in my life. May peace be with you too. Even if we do not share the same beliefs, a life of living by morals is a good way to live. My own morals are very strict. I refuse to cause suffering to anyone. ;)

That is the kindest response to one of my posts I've ever had. Thank you for not making this a giant flaming mess. If only more people were as tolerant as you.

...I doubt he wants us sniffing his ass all day. Is church really nessesary? He's supposed to have given us the gift of life! If this is so, then why not just enjoy it! Stop being bossed around by the church, the synagogue, the mosque, the whatever you use - Just follow the basic moral rules, and live life to the full.

If he exists, then we've lost nothing and i'm sure he'll welcome us into heaven\The afterlife\whatever with open arms. If not, then again, we've lost nothing, and return to the oblivion from wence we came. We must let ourselves enjoy life, live it all the way through, and then die with pride and dignity, knowing that we did not waste this most precious gift, the gift of life.

Break free of the chains of servitude and endless worship, and get out there to enjoy life.

-The TIN man, long-time agnostic

You're making the mistake I made for years - assuming that all religions and all churches are "chains of servitude and endless worship".

Not so. I'm not saying you'll find what I found (Keruvalia seems to have found something else, but just as authentic for him). You may be right - in which case, you should immediately write a book and start your own religion - it worked for L. Ron Hubbard.

That is the kindest response to one of my posts I've ever had. Thank you for not making this a giant flaming mess. If only more people were as tolerant as you.

There are certain types I don't tolerate, like Townies. I HATE them. Other than that I try to tolerate everyone. ;)