NationStates Jolt Archive

okay, hold your fire, I come in peace, this is just an idea and I'm interested in other perspectives, I'm not bashing any particular faith and I'm not a literary expert. That said...

I've heard it said that the sci-fi/horror author H.P. Lovecraft has found an audience because he found a new angle on the idea of horror. Part of his mythos was the premise that humanity was, well, irrelevant. A tiny, ignorant, upstart species lost in the massive shadow of greater, darker entities. It wasn't scary because the Thing was non-Euclidean, it was scary because it existed before and after man, and it didn't give a crap about us. We weren't the center of the universe, weren't God's special children, reality wasn't made for us to grow up in, we were, in context, no greater than bacteria. And if you really wrap your head around that, it can be horrifying.

Religion gives you the idea that the God of the Universe, the Ultimate Creator of Everything, loves you personally so much that he made you and knows every hair on your head. Very comforting in the face of the alternative.

I was thinking, though...what if you could cope without being the center of the universe? What if you could be at peace with the idea that you don't matter more than anything else? What if you realized suddenly that you really are a small blink in reality, you will be gone soon...does that make your life any less meaningful? I think there is freedom and serenity in accepting that maybe the Lord of the Universe has no idea who I am.

I know some religious folks will be insulted, like I'm accusing them of arrogance or fearfulness. I'm just suggesting the idea that religion is born of a need to feel important to the universe.

In my wife's religion, families are sealed together for eternity, and after you die, you see everybody you've loved and you can be with them forever. That would be nice. But, I think just to hedge my bets, I'm going to start trying to live my life like its all I get, like I won't exist after it. I'm going to love and work and play like this time is it, and the only relevance it has is now. (I'm not saying religous people live lackluster lives, but by definition, they don't live them as if they will cease to exist when they die, because they don't believe that).

Thoughts?

Lovecraft's horror stories are popular because of the unconventional approach. Few if any of the beasts in the Cthulhu Mythos are rooted in familiar human folklore and religion, not to mention the shock of human beings not even being on the cosmic food chain so to speak as well as the implication that there is no God to save us when the end comes is quite stark.

That and I want MiB Cthulhu.

Give a Monkey a Brain, and he'll swear hes the center of the universe.

okay, I'll bite, what's "MiB Cthulhu"?

PC Game, console game, tabletop RPG (hopefully not D20 system), graphic novel, or some totally sweet video card that lets your monitor present images that swallow your mind into unfathomable madness (if you can find the right driver)?

okay, I'll bite, what's "MiB Cthulhu"?

It's actually a plush doll from Toy Vault called "Secret Agent Cthulhu," which is Cthulhu in an MiB/Agent getup (ie Armani and Sunglasses) and carrying a tentacled attaché case.

heheh, that sounds adorable. What's next, Ballerina Nyarlthotep?

I am a fan of his writings. A lot of the horror comes from the fact that he wrote about horrible nightmarish creatures and demon gods just lurking outside of our reality, and at times invading our world and living among us. Very surreal and very well written. Mankind is a very small thing indeed in his universe.

People cease to exist as individuals when they die but your atoms remain part of the universe and memories of you live on in those who knew you. While I don't believe in a classical afterlife it is comforting to know the memory of me still exists and in a subtle way the universe is a different place because of my existance. We all share the same cosmos and will share its fate.

Curie, I question your suggestion that "religion is born of a need to feel important to the universe."

I'm speaking primarily of my own experiences here. I became a Christian just over five years ago, and it wasn't because I wanted to feel important, or find significance in something greater than myself, or have a source of comfort in times of difficulty.

I became a Christian because God persuaded me of the truth of the Bible.

I know that statement will not settle well in the minds of many on this forum, but it's the explanation I have for why I, a humanist agnostic (I was STRONG agnostic, doubt was my fundamental philosophical position!), came to believe:

1) that Jesus of Nazareth did actually come back to life, observably, after being killed by means of cruxifixion, and then,
2) that the Christian message, as derived from the Bible and personal contact with God, was and is true.

I believe the evidence supporting this change of mind that I have experienced is sufficient, but I believe that now because I'm a Christian. I didn't before. We all perceive data using a mind that already has accepted the truth of certain propositions, and only an overwhelming amount of data can persuade someone to change their mind on something important to them. I think that's what happened to me.

That's cool, like I said, I've got no beef with any particular faith. We all do judge our own "data" in our own way, I'm just suggesting that, consciously or not, the idea of God fulfills a need for a some people, whether he/she/it is real or not.

Also, please don't feel like this is directed exclusively at Christianity, or even at monotheism in general. In general, though, I maintain that religion places humanity in a position of great universal imoprtance. There are, what, maybe hundreds of religions, and, at most, only one of them is correct. So, how do we explain the appeal of all the incorrect faiths? (whether that represents 99.9% or 100% of religions, I dunno)

I'm sincerely glad for what your religious experience has brought you, and I'm not saying religion is definitely a crutch for everyone. I just worry that when we exalt any particular God, we're really just exalting ourselves in His/Her image and in His/Her esteem.

I believe God does fulfil that need, but I also believe the need is real!

And you're right; in fact, I think you've defined spiritual pride quite well there (ooh, God must like me so much, 'cause I'm so much like Him!). It is a risk, but so is, I feel, hedging all bets and sitting on the fence.

I've gotta go now; it's been fun!

:D

I'm fine with the idea that man doesn't occupy a central place in the universe. Then again I'm a fan of H.P. Lovecraft and Thomas Ligotti, so I've had plenty of exposure to that idea and have had time to adjust.

I believe God does fulfil that need, but I also believe the need is real!

And you're right; in fact, I think you've defined spiritual pride quite well there (ooh, God must like me so much, 'cause I'm so much like Him!). It is a risk, but so is, I feel, hedging all bets and sitting on the fence.

I've gotta go now; it's been fun!

:D

The need MIGHT be real but that dosent make what you choose to fufill it so nessisarily (god)

And sitting on the fence is not hedging your bets ... choosing a religion that you dont believe in just because it might be right is hedging your bets

Alienation is the biggest theme of Lovecraft's stories, especially emphasizing the point that when it comes down to it, Man is left sailing up the creek without a paddle from God or anyone else to help him. Given how we live in a time where religion tends to be questioned, I can see where renewed interest in Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos could possibly be derived from.

cool, I just googled "Thomas Ligotti"...it was now officially worth it to post this thread, not just for the conversation, but for the introdution to a new author to try out. Tibi Gratias ago!

Alienation is the biggest theme of Lovecraft's stories, especially emphasizing the point that when it comes down to it, Man is left sailing up the creek without a paddle from God or anyone else to help him. Given how we live in a time where religion tends to be questioned, I can see where renewed interest in Lovecraft and the Cthulhu Mythos could possibly be derived from.

Lovecraft's writing didn't leave humanity competely alone. The ghouls and night gaunts were servents of Nodenz who while no fan of humanity was an enemy of the great old ones and was willing to help people in a story or two.

Lovecraft's writing didn't leave humanity competely alone. The ghouls and night gaunts were servents of Nodenz who while no fan of humanity was an enemy of the great old ones and was willing to help people in a story or two.
The Ghouls and Deep Ones were part of the human species, or at least so closely related that they could interbreed.

The Ghouls and Deep Ones were part of the human species, or at least so closely related that they could interbreed.
True and people could turn into ghouls. I forgot about the deep ones. Shadow over Innsmouth creeped me out as a kid. I had a bus driver that looked like he was turning into one. Big eyes, no chin, flabby neck, no hair (even eyebrows).

Wasn't there a dude in one of the stories who basically wanted to be left alone to read, and started reading in the graveyard for privacy, and eventually manifested physical changes until he turned into a ghoul?

I don't know if it was an HPL authored one, or one of the "HPL mythos" shorts done later by other authors. I remember the ending wasn't all that catastrophic, the "victim" just sort of switched worlds. Instead of a reclusive human, he was a reclusive ghoul...wish I could remember the title.

You are what you make of yourself. I know that I am the center of my personal universe. In fact, from what I can see, everything revolves around me, and damn the rest. I am the center of what I know.

Am I not mad?

are you not mad? I dunno, sorry. I have no background in clinical psychology, and I (probably) don't know you, so I can't say.

I don't see anything all that wrong with being focused on your own life and your own experiences, I guess.

Unless your "personal universe" involves half-eaten neighbors in your fridge, intimate sensual interaction with unwilling pets, or the habitual nasal absorbing of crushed Pez for the purposes of hallucinogenic experimentation, I don't imagine you're mad.

As for "you are what you make of yourself", my dad used to say that a lot, and I think its a good statement of personal responsibility. I think there are experiences during our formative years that we don't have control over that may have an impact, but we can always work to grow beyond those things and shape ourselves. So, yeah, I'll buy that.