NationStates Jolt Archive

Just to take you all away from the regular US bashing and rants on Christanity vs science... Why dont you look into other pending international crisies...

What do you all feel of the China's response to harsh protests against Japan (resulting in attacks on their embassy) and Japans whitewashing of historical literature down playing WW2 atrocities.... ?

I think both Japanese and Chinese girls are supper hot! I say we have them settle their differences jello wrestling. :D

I think both Japanese and Chinese girls are supper hot! I say we have them settle their differences jello wrestling. :D

Oh. Dear. God.

Oh. Dear. God.

I know how you feel. This is more of a lube wrestling event. *nod*

Oh. Dear. God.
:p

Well from the Japanese end of it the reaction is mixed. I have met a couple of Japanese who are angry at China over the violence. I have met one man who was happy the Chinese were attacking Japanese people and property. Oddly enough he is an extreme pacifist who seemed to think violence against his own country was okay. That struck me as odd.
Then you have the vast majority of Japanese citizens I have spoken with who know about it and just really don't give a damn. If I mention it they nod their heads and say, "Un." (Yeah.) "What movie did you watch last weekend?"

I would hope this kind of thing would help the Japanese further regrow their backbone, of course that is my bias from living in Japan and liking the people and country. I recognize that.

Just to take you all away from the regular US bashing and rants on Christanity vs science... Why dont you look into other pending international crisies...

What do you all feel of the China's response to harsh protests against Japan (resulting in attacks on their embassy) and Japans whitewashing of historical literature down playing WW2 atrocities.... ?


Well.. No offense, but I think those protesters are a either hypocrites or willing instruments of the Chinese goverment. Sure the Japanese position is wrong, but where are those Chinese citizens who object to, say the Chinese occupation of Tibet?
Either they are 'silenced' in various ways - protests are okay, just not against the Chinese government - or they are truly nonexistent.

Chinese anger seems to be more than a bit misplaced. Their own government has done worse to them than the Japanese ever have... and a whole lot more recently. Still, I suspect the Chinese propaganda machine is playing this up, because it's easier for the government to get away with nasty things at home when the people are distracted by events abroad.

Right, Dubya?

Anyway, China as a nation is hardly in a position to pass moral judgement.

Chinese anger seems to be more than a bit misplaced. Their own government has done worse to them than the Japanese ever have... and a whole lot more recently. Still, I suspect the Chinese propaganda machine is playing this up, because it's easier for the government to get away with nasty things at home when the people are distracted by events abroad.

Right, Dubya?

Anyway, China as a nation is hardly in a position to pass moral judgement.

it is the Chinese people.. not the government pushing this argument. and I suggest you review some of the atrocities the Japanese incured on the Chinese people during World War 2.. your tone could change a bit. Those were unediably war crimes not to be sweapt under the carpet by historical whitewashing.

The chinese government has nothing to gain from these rising nationalistic movements as Japan is Chinas largest trade partner... toping even the US

The chinese government has nothing to gain from these rising nationalistic movements as Japan is Chinas largest trade partner... toping even the US

China has everything to gain. The communist party in charge is completely idealogically bankrupt. One of their last few viable plays on retaining the loyalty of their citizens is the nationalist card, which they have been playing at every opportunity possible. It is a perilous move, but no worse than doing nothing, and by using Japan as a scapegoat the Chinese government can keep the people distracted.

it is the Chinese people.. not the government pushing this argument. and I suggest you review some of the atrocities the Japanese incured on the Chinese people during World War 2.. your tone could change a bit. Those were unediably war crimes not to be sweapt under the carpet by historical whitewashing.

I suggest you review the current situation. The Chinese government is not uninvolved. They are using this as a protest against an initiative to add Japan to the UN Security Council. In addition, the Chinese people get their news from a single source: the government. It controls all media.

The chinese government has nothing to gain from these rising nationalistic movements as Japan is Chinas largest trade partner... toping even the US
A totalitarian state always has much to gain from rising nationalism, since it increases submission to said state.

I think both Japanese and Chinese girls are supper hot! I say we have them settle their differences jello wrestling. :D

Where can I get tickets?!?

They're getting pissed off at the Japanese for something that
A)Are already being punished for
B)Didn't even happen in their lifetime?

That doesn't make much sense. The Japanese were nuked TWICE (Most in the world's history!) and then are forbidden to have their own army outside of 10,000 men. There are more than 10,000 men in the county I live in.

The Japanese killed millions of Chinese in the 30's and 40's, and then Communist China killed maybe 100,000,000 of it's own people in the 50's and 60's.

Gee, we got glass houses over there all over the place.

It'll blow over. What else can they do but yell at each other til they're out of breath? After they release their pent up frustration toward each other everything will be back to the status quo. That's it. They'll mention horrible atrocities and deny horrible atrocities for a while but at the end of the day they'll realize that it's already been done and that nothing much can be done about it now.

What do men find especially attractive in Asian women? They aren't unattractive, but I don't see what makes them any more attractive then other women. I think that a blend of several or all races (South Americans of mixed descent) is the pinnacle of evolution. You can't get more sexy then that.

Actually Japanese atrocities in China were ruthless. Somehow the only war crimes that the Japanese committed that the West cares about were the Americans and Europeans. They are not comparable with what China endured.

Of course you cannot blame a people(not forever anyway), I usually get mad about all the crap Germans get for Hitler and the Holocaust. Using money to still look for men close to a hundred doesn't make sense either.

Somehow people think the Chinese government directs everyting the Chinese do. When secretary of state Rice was called a baboon and ugly by Chinese on the internet, some people claimed it was indirectly from the government!

The US inflates much more nationalism into their people than China. China's government doesn't claim to be a democracy and at the same time claim that anyone opposing their policies is unpatriotic.

The Chinese people does have their own will.

Japan needs to admit its past war crimes, everybody knows they happened they aren't doing themselves any favours or increasing their standing in the eyes of the world by trying to whitewash the past. Japan is now a modern democracy but it will never be on totally friendly relations with its neighbours if it doesnt face up to its violent imperialist past.

Actually Japanese atrocities in China were ruthless. Somehow the only war crimes that the Japanese committed that the West cares about were the Americans and Europeans. They are not comparable with what China endured.

True, they committed horrible crimes in Nanking, in Manchuria and elsewhere in eastern China.

Interesting article I read recently detailed the extent of racism in Chinese society. I've heard similar comments regarding Japan; does anyone have any info to back up or counter these claims?

Comments about 'jello' wrestling. Really.

It's obvious that BOTH sides have points in their favore. The Japanese never really have faced what was done before and during WWII, prefering to leave the past in the past. The Chinese, however, also needs to move beyond this as well.

What it really boils down to however is control.

During the 19th and 20th Century; China, one of the world's oldest and complex civilizations, was repeatedly humiliated and went from a position of power as the driving force of Asia to being a realitive backwater.

Japan, however, dominated Asia during the same time period, which is also infuriating as a large chunk of Japanese culture and civilization came from, well, China.

Both countries were decimated in the aftermath of WWII, but Japan came out on top and rebounded quicker.

Now China wants to be the middle kingdom again, about which all Asia turns, and working against that dream (to make sure that it keeps its position as the second largest ecconomy and Asian leader) is Japan.

The whole textbook/rape of Nanking/UN Security Council Seat/Excuse-of-the-day is just a reason to butt heads.

The whole textbook/rape of Nanking/UN Security Council Seat/Excuse-of-the-day is just a reason to butt heads.
Which makes me ready to say: so, what are the Americans, British and Russians going to say about Japan's desire to have a permanant seat? Surely, they won't be as hypocritical as the Chinese and over look THEIR human rights violations... (yes, I omitted France on the grounds that it isn't even half as bad as the others!)

Japan needs to admit its past war crimes, everybody knows they happened they aren't doing themselves any favours or increasing their standing in the eyes of the world by trying to whitewash the past. Japan is now a modern democracy but it will never be on totally friendly relations with its neighbours if it doesnt face up to its violent imperialist past.

Japan has apologized several times:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Now, I do dislike that the nationalists in Japan are aiming to whitewash certain events, but don't make the mistake of assuming that is the national attitude towards things. There is a plethora of viewpoints there and for every person who cheers on a nationalist politician, there is another one protesting him.
As far as facing its past, one can also argue that the other nations in the region need to do the same:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1548&ncid=1548&e=9&u=/afp/20050412/lf_afp/afplifestylejapanchinarallyeducation_050412063219
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A61708-2005Apr17.html

Now I am biased. I admit it. I am half-japanese, and I do have a fondness for the country. However, I am not a nationalist. Whitewashing history is not something that should go on; unfortunately, it is all too common in East Asia right now on a whole.

Well that I heard it only a few highschool that starting to use the book that started the conflict, the most japanase schools use books that explain the japanse warcrimes. So I think that it is underlining issues that is the real reason for the conflict and the book is only the match. It would be totally diffrent if all or many schools started to use the books then it could maybee a reason to start a international conflict. Underlining reason for the conflict that I heard is for example that Japan have joined USA in the defence of Taiwan, the rights to oil and gas in the ocean and as you already mention Japanes claim for a permanent seat in UN security counsiel.

And of course chinese have there own free will and not totally brainwashed but there right to demonstrate and to have free spech is severly restricted by the goverment. So atleast the chinese goverment is not cracking down on demonstration like they useally do, so either they support the demonsration or just allow it because it is directed against and a foriegn country and not the goverment but most likely somethere between.

I remember that, in 1937, when Nanking happened, nobody in the west gave a damn. Nobody. No country has done anything. The only westerners who did something were the few Americans and English in Nanking and that German, John Rabe, the nazi.

Those people came home and tried to present the truth to the people of their country. In the US and UK it was basically ignored. In Germany, Rabe was even interrogated by the GESTAPO and told to stop this "nonsense".

Then, in 1941/42, we see a US propaganda movie that says "Why we fight" and looky, Nanking is suddenly a reason.

I'm not holding a grudge to the Japanese because of what elements of the Japanese army have done in China. That'd be stupid and pointless. Okay, so my great-grandparents had to flee with their kids from their village when the Japanese came (I also blame that partly on the incompetent Chinese army). Yes, that was bad, agreed. On the other hand, without the Japanese my father wouldn't exist. As bad as the war was, why would I hold, let's say, the girl friend of my best friend responsible for it? Not really logic.

It's done, it's history, get over it.

Personally I think we're a bit over-reacting. Also, I don't think that the issue is really WW2. Look at the demonstrations, you barely see anyone who's 50, not to mention 60+.

I think the reasons can be found in the more recent history. They're economical mostly. Japan and China are competitors not only over the oil in the Chinese sea. Then you have the Japanese stance on Taiwan, etc etc.

Well.. No offense, but I think those protesters are a either hypocrites or willing instruments of the Chinese goverment. Sure the Japanese position is wrong, but where are those Chinese citizens who object to, say the Chinese occupation of Tibet?
Either they are 'silenced' in various ways - protests are okay, just not against the Chinese government - or they are truly nonexistent.

chinese citizens don't generally object to the chinese occupation of tibet. they see tibet as a province of china. Like where are the americans objecting to the US occupation of Rhode Island?

I'm not saying I agree with this position. I'm saying this is the position of most Chinese. Based on my own experience. There's over a billion of em and I've not met all that many.

Personally I think we're a bit over-reacting. Also, I don't think that the issue is really WW2. Look at the demonstrations, you barely see anyone who's 50, not to mention 60+.

I think the reasons can be found in the more recent history. They're economical mostly. Japan and China are competitors not only over the oil in the Chinese sea. Then you have the Japanese stance on Taiwan, etc etc.

plus japanese entry to the UN security council as a permanent member. If the protesters were genuinely most concerned about accuracy of textbooks and ill treatment, they'd be thinking more of their own government and their own people than blaming the japanese.

This
Chinese anger seems to be more than a bit misplaced. Their own government has done worse to them than the Japanese ever have... and a whole lot more recently. Still, I suspect the Chinese propaganda machine is playing this up, because it's easier for the government to get away with nasty things at home when the people are distracted by events abroad.

Right, Dubya?

Anyway, China as a nation is hardly in a position to pass moral judgement.

and this

Well.. No offense, but I think those protesters are a either hypocrites or willing instruments of the Chinese goverment. Sure the Japanese position is wrong, but where are those Chinese citizens who object to, say the Chinese occupation of Tibet?
Either they are 'silenced' in various ways - protests are okay, just not against the Chinese government - or they are truly nonexistent.

are hardly fair. Just because a country's government abuses its citizens doesn't remove the right for the people to protest against atrocities which has happened to the people. From someone whose grandmother's family had suffered from the communists and also fled from the japanese, I feel that what's being said by some on this forum is highly offensive. When Jewish people are free to commemorate their dead without much opposition, I think the same respect should be afforded to the Chinese people.

During the war (from BBC NEWS site):
1. In Nanjing, 300 000 civilians were killed, 20 000 women raped.
2. Chinese women were forced to become sexual slaves for Japanese soldiers
3. Chemical and biological weapons were tested on POWs and civilians. Those that were buried (including 700, 000 chemical weapons left in China) are still being accidentally unearthed and killing people

Wikipedia states 8.4 million civilian casualties in China from the Japanese invasion. The Japanese also performed medical experiments on the people they captured.

You really can't say that because China isn't facing up to it's own past (notably absent from Chinese History books is the Tiamen Square massacre, the invasion of Tibet and the horific failings of Mao's policies during the 1960s) that makes it ok for Japan to ignore it's past.
They are two completely seperate issues. You can't combine them. Regardless of how hypocritical the Chinese stance is. You can't excuse or justify one country's atrocities on another country simply because said country has inflicted it's own atrocities on its own people.
That would be akin to saying Germany shouldn't have had to apologise to the USA about WWII because the USA practically wiped out the Native American population over 400 years.

A couple of points to consider:
The Chinese government isn't supporting the protests. The domestic media was ordered not to report the demostrations, party and work units were given directives not to go on to the streets, police messages were sent out to dissuade people not to protest, and some protest organisers were taken in custody. Where ever there were protests, there was a massive police and army presence.
Hardly what you would call government support, then.
The second point is that only a few thousand took to the streets. This is in a country of 1.3 Billion, so it's hardly what one can call a massive protest. Once again the media, bored, lazy and looking for an easy way to fill the headlines seizes on something and blows it out of proportion.

Well, I don't totally know about the new developments, but I know one of the root causes is Japans push to get a security council seat, as well as the history textbook thing. I know the Japanese did nasty things in China 60+ years ago, but folks, let's face it. The people in power in Japan now were little kids back then they were not even in the military.

And beyond that, if the Chinese are so concerned about nations that killed a lot of Chinese being on the Security Council, then they should haul the PRCs ass off, after all, Mao killed an assload of people.

Japan had special unit which used Chinese to see what happens if you expose them to specific biological reagents. Officially, the Japanese say it did not exist but a member of unit has apologised. The usual head in the sand trick applies to other things which might make Japan look bad.

I think that by allowing the protest to occur the government of China is supporting them. I doubt they told the press to stay away from the scene because I've seen so many pictures of flag-waving and a 10,000 strong parade. The police were on duty to protect the Japanese buildings but they failed to do so. It is possible that the government in a communist country could incite the population to demostrate about events that occured in history to shape their beliefs about Japan in the long run. If these beliefs are pasted on and amplified through government propaganda the citizens of China will be ready to declare war on Japan within a few generations, or just one. This is very likely to occur because of China new found power and Japan weakness. Just my thoughts.

Well, I don't totally know about the new developments, but I know one of the root causes is Japans push to get a security council seat, as well as the history textbook thing. I know the Japanese did nasty things in China 60+ years ago, but folks, let's face it. The people in power in Japan now were little kids back then they were not even in the military.
True, the people in power had nothing to do with it, but they are hardly making any apologies about it. Every year Japanese ministers, including the PM on at least 4 occasions, have visited the Yasukuni shrine honouring Japan's 2.5 million war dead - but also honours those convicted of war crimes, including wartime Prime Minister Hideki Tojo, who was hanged for war crimes in 1948. On October 17, 1978, 13 Class A war criminals (according to the judgement of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East), including Hideki Tojo, were quietly enshrined as "Martyrs of Showa"
The shrine's English-language website refers to the 1,068 executed for war crimes who are enshrined there, as those "who were cruelly and unjustly tried as war criminals by a sham-like tribunal of the Allied forces." It also gives the reason behind the Sino-Japan war as: "Japan’s dream of building a Great East Asia was necessitated by history and it was sought after by the countries of Asia.", and "For Japan that was in a period of modernisation, a partnership with neighbouring Korea was indispensible... China Manchu's assertions over sovereignty led to the outbreak of war'.
This from a website that proclaims that 'The truth of modern Japanese history is now restored'.
http://www.yasukuni.or.jp/english/

Hardly what one would call showing repentance or even acknowledgement of Japanese atrocities. It would be akin to the German chancellor visiting a shrine for Adolf Hitler.