NationStates Jolt Archive

Although most complain how much the General forum may be tended toward discussion about religion and what not, I think its quiet comedious everytime I visit and have a good laugh at what everyone loves to read, write, and even believe. In the also, I thought that between people respecting each other, I wouldnt mind having a small yarn myself over how people seem to perceive God, since lately I have been amazed at how people are so closed off to the truth of His character. I would have to blame this common misconception on probably attitudes of the generations previously (not that its their fault as such), wheraby attitudes tend to be passed down each generation.

I have noticed an amazing trend at how people are so affected by what they see, hear, and what the media tries to tell them, and how people are actually so closed off to trying something for themselves, to gain their own perspective on the truth. Being a christian myself, and witnessing to my friends at school (when I did school), I found it almost funny how many of them considered themselves people 'not suitable for church', even though their only contact with God has been through what somebody else has wrote and said, who also listened to whatever someone else wrote and said, the system continuing endlessly. By the way, you will find that I highlighted the words Church and God for a particular reason, to show the difference on how people see Christianity as a whole. People cant see past the church into what God is really like, and so for them Church and God are the same thing. I'll explain why that's actually false later on.

But for now, I suppose to actually begin my exposition, I would need to begin with some kind of subject to focus on.

God Is Into People

I know that a lot of people would actually start with something trying to prove God's existance, but personally I dont think theres any point. If youre not willing to give it a chance that he exists, then you're wasting your time reading. If you're going to consider the possibility, then hey, let me enlighten you my experience on what God is like, so that maybe you can go try for yourself to see if hes real and if he can work in your life. But anyhow, im rambing way too much, so I will get right onto the basic subject, that God is actually, believe it or not interested in people, and hes people friendly.

Here would be where I bring in how the church is in fact different to God. See, if you imagine a man walking down a path, and you see a woman who follows the man, could you say that both are the same person? Hardly! Time and time again, people think that church = god somehow, or that church character = God's character. See, although the bible itself does say that we as christians ought to be followers of God in every way, let me tell you that not every church-goer is. You see on television the massive processions where you have the catholic churches and what not, kissing the feet of the local cardinal, and I say thats fine, but God never told us we had to do these things! See, where the church condemns people for not being 'perfect', God sent his Son Jesus Christ so that we could actually be made perfect with the grace of God! Now im not saying that im perfect, but I know that if I do something that's not in line with what the bible says, God's not going to cast a ray of lighting unto me. Its not good to do 'bad' things, however if I do make the mistake of being human, God forgives!

Also, where some churches make you feel forced into doing things, do not mistake that for the character of God. God is a gentleman who would never actually do something in your life without your permission. As for proof? There is a story in the bible where a begger (who is blind) is sitting on the side of the road when Jesus comes by. Jesus sees the blind man, and asks him, "What do you want?". Now, if I cant stress this enough, JESUS WASNT STUPID! In fact, the truth of the matter, is that some people dont want healing, and that unless the man asks for healing, hes not going to force it upon him. It might sound a bit strange, but I think its a lot better than some christian forcing God onto you telling you that you need help. So please understand, its up to you.

And my final point for now, is that people are imperfect. So is it not safe to assume that the church, who is made of people, can actually be imperfect? And if God is perfect, then can it not be safe to assume that not all churches are representing God so accurate? I know for a fact that all the rules, and the ceramonies you might have seen at the Pope's funeral in the Vatican, are so unneeded, yet they stress them as if God commands them himself. Not anywhere in the bible does it tell you to perform a kissing session with your local Cardinal's feet, nor does it tell you to wave some lamp with smoke seven times toward something to make it holy. God is a people person who focuses on the relationship you can have with him. No rules or regulations are needed for that, except those which God commands, and even those he leaves up to you. Dont let anyone tell you that God is into religious processions.

I can say, that as a testimony of my own life, God has changed my life in every way possible. Before I committed my life, I used to be the biggest loser on the street, and I can tell you that I would not be here today without him. Everytime I choose him in my life's areas, I have found his hand in everything I do, and even today at 17 years old, I have found that God is blessing me in such a way that I get the privilage to start my own business, a dream I have had even since a little boy. I found my current girlfriend at church, and my relationship with her is prospering so much. In half a month, it will be our first year annerversary, and while I can say that some parts have been difficult, only God made it possible for us to still be in love with each other today. I have the privilage of meeting great business leaders, and I have the privilage of living a life I could never have ever imagined. You know, I never got into drugs, sex and alcohol, but I can say that I know my life would be meaningless without God, and I would be into those things myself. Every day, I would have gotten up with no real purpose and destiny in front of me. I can honestly say that the world here does suck, but through God, I get to experience the best, and I love my life so much.

If you are willing to give it a shot, hey, go for it. Really I suppose I tried to share my perception on who God is, and what he did for me. I can say that you might say to yourself, "My life's fine", and I would honestly believe you. But until you actually give it all a real shot, you will never really know what God could have done in your life. You may have a good life without him, but you may have had an incredible life with him. You may have a sucky life without him, and a great life with him. All I know, is that God built my life, and he builds the life of the people around me. And now, I hope he uses me to help build the lives and relationships of others.

If you have any questions, feel free to query below. Honestly, I can take some critisizm, but at least have the balls to make it constructive, or perhaps even give your own point of view, with mine in consideration. But honestly, consider it, and try to understand what I have written since its almost midnight here. All I ask though, is dont write of God just because of what Johnny from down the road said, or for what Helen believes herself, or for even what the tv shows you. Experience life yourself, and im sure if you give the chance to experience God, you will find amazing things there.

Bump! I took forever writing this...

<snip>but I can say that I know my life would be meaningless without God, and I would be into those things myself. Every day, I would have gotten up with no real purpose and destiny in front of me. I can honestly say that the world here does suck, but through God, I get to experience the best, and I love my life so much. <snip>

I was a christian not too long ago and said the same thing. 'My life would have no point without God.' Well, here I am, and i still look foward to getting up every day. Really, I got tired of talking to the air. I dont feel gods presence anywhere and If god was real, i would expect him to make his presence known.

I can undestand how religion can improve people's lives in many cases, and I think it must be nice having that sensation of comfort, like a sort of safety net under you wherever you go. But that's all irrelivant at the end of the day because I'm just to rational and obsessed with the truth to believe in such things as gods and the supernatural. I cannot believe in something when everywhere I look I see evidence contradicting it.

But that's all irrelivant at the end of the day because I'm just to rational and obsessed with the truth to believe in such things as gods and the supernatural. I cannot believe in something when everywhere I look I see evidence contradicting it.

ditto.

All I ask though, is dont write of God just because of what Johnny from down the road said, or for what Helen believes herself, or for even what the tv shows you. Experience life yourself, and im sure if you give the chance to experience God, you will find amazing things there.
So, I should believe in God because of what you say or what Mark down the street tells me or what Laura believes?

Sorry, I just don't see God's hand in anything. All the choices I've made, the good ones and the bad ones, have come from myself and my experience, and advice from good friends. And yet I find myself enjoying life and being happy and decent without any need of God. Go figure!

Really, I have never felt God anywhere. Not that I'm trying to deny Its existance, simply that I have never felt It or felt the need to feel It.

Some people expect to feel something and so they do.

bump.
I am genuinely happy for you Austar Union, and i hope that your life stays on the so-called right track. but how do you mean 'experience'. could you explain that to me? ty

and Extradites, i would like to know what this proof you see is

Indeed. I can also appreciate that life without 'religion' can be fun and pleasureable at the same time. But I dont know, having God adds like a fifth wheel to my life, where not only is my life happy and awesome, but I really feel like I have something in my life which nothing else can gain me. Honestly, I cannot explain what factor in my life gives me this, but my walk with God.

Something really ignites me when I feel god the most. And for those who havent felt the need or what-not, can I suggest even just trying it to see what its like? I know what you mean when you say you dont feel the need to, or when you say that you have never felt his presense, because I used to be like that myself. Then one day, I ended up in some church and thinking to myself, "Why the hell not?"

That was the best desision of my life, and today I am enjoying the fruits of that. Thats all I can really say. Im honestly just sharing this because I have found something great, and I know a lot of people can appreciate this in their lives. I do kinda hope that at least someone gets that same feeling of a 'fifth wheel' from me, because I couldnt go back today, not in a million years.

bump.
I am genuinely happy for you Austar Union, and i hope that your life stays on the so-called right track. but how do you mean 'experience'. could you explain that to me? ty

and Extradites, i would like to know what this proof you see is

Sorry, didnt even see the question till now.

When you ask about experience, Im assuming your saying when I recommend that people give it a shot right?

I mean get into your local church, maybe start listening to their worship and sermons, bring out the dusty bible and see what its like... Thats honestly how I found god, by saying "What the heck, ill give it a shot.... If it works, awesome, if not, oh well."

I think what happens proves true, my life turned around and was shaken upside down. God is truly amazing.

Bump!

You know it sounds like you're preaching to mostly atheists and nonChristians here. And on that note I'm not sure I appreciate the title "for Dummies," as if anyone who hasn't come to the same conclusions as you is a dummy...

You know it sounds like you're preaching to mostly atheists and nonChristians here. And on that note I'm not sure I appreciate the title "for Dummies," as if anyone who hasn't come to the same conclusions as you is a dummy...

Well, apoligies to anyone offended then by the title. I was actually going along the lines of those "for dummies" book series, where its in reference of a simple guide to...

Well, apoligies to anyone offended then by the title. I was actually going along the lines of those "for dummies" book series, where its in reference of a simple guide to...

Makes sense to me. Seems pretty obvious why you picked that.

That's what I thought, but the for dummy's books have more and shorter paragraphs. :p

...If god was real, i would expect him to make his presence known.
Why?

and Extradites, i would like to know what this proof you see is
Well, it's mainly due to my study of biology. Before then I was young I was of a "well, anything is possible" mindset because there appeared to be so much that sciense didn't account for yet. Of course, when I started learning about how life forms develope, grow and behave, as well as the mechanisms of genetic chemistry and evolution it became pretty obvious than even the most amazing things could be explained with the ellegant beauty of mathematics, and if I can't be sure that 1+1=2 then there's no point in ever believing anything.
There is nothing observable that requires a God for it to exist from my observations, so all probability points to wards there not being one. Add to this all the things in various religions that have been disproved over the years and it seems a very open and shut case.
If your mind hasn't been tuned by as much thought to the subject as mine to the extent that you are capable of believing in and being comforted by religion good luck to you, because you have my envy. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

That is true considering that Willamena. Why?

From the perspective on God, I would want people to choose me, rather than me to constant run after tiny individuals who say that "God never tried".

The bible says, "Take one step toward me, and I will take a thousand towards you."

And something also along the lines of that it is us who must seek God. So if thats true, which I believe it is since I believe in Gods word, then ultimately its our responsibility to seek God and get from him what we want. There is also a gentleman in the bible who prayed so hard for a breakthrough for something like a month, but never gave up. A month came, and an angel came to him with the breakthrough and the guy asked, "Why did you take so long?"

The angel said to him, "I was sent on the first day you prayed, but I had to fight so hard to get here, it took a month."

It was because the man kept trying even though it seemed a bit harder that he got the breakthrough.

Well, it's mainly due to my study of biology. Before then I was young I was of a "well, anything is possible" mindset because there appeared to be so much that sciense didn't account for yet. Of course, when I started learning about how life forms develope, grow and behave, as well as the mechanisms of genetic chemistry and evolution it became pretty obvious than even the most amazing things could be explained with the ellegant beauty of mathematics, and if I can't be sure that 1+1=2 then there's no point in ever believing anything.
There is nothing observable that requires a God for it to exist from my observations, so all probability points to wards there not being one. Add to this all the things in various religions that have been disproved over the years and it seems a very open and shut case.
If your mind hasn't been tuned by as much thought to the subject as mine to the extent that you are capable of believing in and being comforted by religion good luck to you, because you have my envy. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

Thats interesting though, because there are many scientists who have claimed that there must be some kind of creator, for the level of detail there.

And an interesting fact:

The founder of the Athiest's Society on his deathbed said "I know there is a heaven, and a hell, and I know there must be a God, because I can feel myself slipping into its eternal existance! And there is nothing I can do but feel regret, because I know now it is too late for me. There is a God!"

I think it was Tecumseh who said "I am a Shawnee. My forefathers were warriors. Their son is a warrior... From my tribe I take nothing. I am the maker of my own fortune."

I don't need some weird god-like creature floating around somewhere invisible to us. I'm the master of my own life.

Besides, I have better things to do than wasting my time on following something that is mere western propaganda. And I think the founder of the Athiest's Society was a pussy.

That is true considering that Willamena. Why?
I don't understand: what is true?

I don't understand: what is true?

I was saying that when you asked Why, it opened up a whole new arguement... least in my head! Lol. I think you simply reminded me of something lead to... yeah. Forget it.

The bible says, "Take one step toward me, and I will take a thousand towards you."
Sorry, but even when i still cared about God, and took severeal steps towards him, nothing ever came back.

From the perspective on God, I would want people to choose me, rather than me to constant run after tiny individuals who say that "God never tried".
Who exactly was the omnipotent, omniscient being in this picture, and who was the one cursed by a certain higher being for the sins of his forefathers, so that he had to work hard all day to feed himself?
Besides, since you are a believer, avoid the sin of pride and painting a picture of God.

Well, it's mainly due to my study of biology. .

I have to agree with that. I have no idea why, but the more I look at biology, the more I have there has to be some sort of creator. And no I'm not a Creationist. I beleive in the Theory of Evolution, and am amused and saddened by those who don't.

If you took steps to God and didn't get anything, you were walking down the wrong Path.
Didn't you get to breath your next breath? I'm not saying breathing is proof of God, but if you truly believed and were sincere, to you breathing would be a gift.

Good point about God and the Church being different. The Christian Religion as a whole tells us nothing about God, manly just stories that people made up so it would be more like Roman Mythology.

Sorry, but even when i still cared about God, and took severeal steps towards him, nothing ever came back.
that shows how far you were from him which shows that you never believed in the first place

that shows how far you were from him which shows that you never believed in the first place
Nice to see that there is always some kid on the other end of the world who knows my personal experience better than me. Take your smugness out of my face, wanker.

Good point about God and the Church being different. The Christian Religion as a whole tells us nothing about God, manly just stories that people made up so it would be more like Roman Mythology.

Who is to say who's religion is right or wrong?

Why?

How else are we supposed to know a god exists if he doesnt make his presence known?

Originally posted by Extradites
There is nothing observable that requires a God for it to exist from my observations, so all probability points to wards there not being one. Add to this all the things in various religions that have been disproved over the years and it seems a very open and shut case.
How did time start? What was there before the Big Bang? Whatever it was, what existed before it? (Repeat previous question as many times as you like.)

In the course of history, has science ever shown evidence for something to have created itself with no outside catalyst and with basically no matter? This had to have been the case sometime back the line, as I don't think these bangs and line theories go back into infinite. Something has to have caused them to exist . . . something that was not created of something else.

This is my big problem with the idea that there is no God. I will even admit that evolution has an explainable and well-thought-out case, but from what I can tell, I see no way other than some kind of Creator. I cannot think of any other explanation.

However, I will agree that mathematics and science are fascinating things! I enjoy them immensely and love to learn new things about them.

If your mind hasn't been tuned by as much thought to the subject as mine to the extent that you are capable of believing in and being comforted by religion good luck to you, because you have my envy. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
I apologize if I have read too much into this, but it seems as though you are treating anyone with a different view as a simpleton. Very presumptuous, if such is the case.

I have mulled this over so many times (as I used to share your views on this particular subject), and each time I get to the beginning of anything, I cannot rationally explain a beginning of all things without a Creator.

Originally posted by Secluded Islands
How else are we supposed to know a god exists if he doesnt make his presence known?
How would you propose He do this? If He were to just open up the sky and show Himself (aside from the fact that we would die if He is as Scripture describes Him), would that be the minimum? I am not sure how He hasn't, but I am willing to hear what you think.

Originally posted by Nova Roma
Who is to say who's religion is right or wrong?
I say you're wrong, and that's final! ;)
Just kidding.

Originally posted by Jester III
Nice to see that there is always some kid on the other end of the world who knows my personal experience better than me. Take your smugness out of my face, wanker.
He's a troll. Disregard what he just said (and many things he may say in the future as most of it just seems to be for starting a ruckus). That is not based in anything but his imagination and utter speculation.

I know that feeling, and I felt that way for close to three years. I clung to what I knew, because what I felt was not kosher with what I thought. I honestly will tell you that a thinking faith is so much more stable than a feeling faith. So many things affect feelings. Feelings are nebulous and often almost etherial. In addition, Christians who base all their belief on what they feel cannot, by logic, function in their faith whenever that feeling leaves. Thankfully, thoughts and beliefs are held in my mind, and not in my emotions, so that regardless of what I feel sometimes, it doesn't weaken my faith.

I do sympathize with such an experience, though. I think it happens to all of us.

Ffc2, if you would like to help, then use Scripture to back your beliefs. A nebulous belief like yours seems to be is just as reasonable as believing in a giant egg that lives in a different dimension and keeps earth functioning. You're like Jesussaves, only he was a puppet (and if this is DCR, you should rot! ;) )

Originally posted by Austar Union
There is also a gentleman in the bible who prayed so hard for a breakthrough for something like a month, but never gave up. A month came, and an angel came to him with the breakthrough and the guy asked, "Why did you take so long?"

The angel said to him, "I was sent on the first day you prayed, but I had to fight so hard to get here, it took a month."

It was because the man kept trying even though it seemed a bit harder that he got the breakthrough.
At first, I thought you were talking about Jabez. Where is this located? Just curious.

God Is Into People
Okay, I couldn't help but think of this when I saw that:

http://roland-allen.net/archives/jsbstash_1785_5241059.jpg

Buddy Jesus from Dogma . . . right . . . :D

How would you propose He do this? If He were to just open up the sky and show Himself (aside from the fact that we would die if He is as Scripture describes Him), would that be the minimum? I am not sure how He hasn't, but I am willing to hear what you think.

Why could he not just show himself? You say we cannot see God or we would die. What about: Gen.32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

God made himself known to people in the Old Testament right? Why did he stop doing that?

Originally posted by Secluded Islands
Why could he not just show himself? You say we cannot see God or we would die. What about: Gen.32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Fair question, and one from a truly inquisitive mind. When I hear this argument, it is usually from someone who is already set in their beliefs to the point of futility in even speaking with them.

Sadly, I would say that there are plenty that are that way on here.

On to your topic, though. This passage says that Jacob named the place "penû'êl," because of this grappling match with a man the night before. Notice that this passage is historical in nature. That is, it is merely describing what happened, whether those in the story were correct or not. Jacob thought he had wrestled with God, yet the fact remains that we cannot honestly say that we know with whom he wrestled, as the Bible only refers to the mysterious man as an 'îysh, which literally translates the same: man. Jacob may not have actually wrestled with God. We don't know who he wrestled. What we know is that Jacob thought it was God.

Point number two is what Jacob said when he named the spot. He said, as you quoted, "for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Why would he say such in the way he did?

"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." Seems as if Jacob was also of the persuasion that those who saw the face of God were not typically supposed to live, or it would seem an odd thing to say in commemoration.

Thus, while Jacob thought he wrestled with God, he may not have. Even if he did, he recognized that it was something to be remembered to have seen the face of God and still be alive. Frankly, I am not going to tell God that He can never look upon anyone face-to-face, or they will be killed, but I can take what I know from Exodus 3:6 and 33:23, where Moses did not look in anticipation to see God, but hid his face. In the second passage, God explained that Moses would not see His face, but His back, only. Now, God does not say why, but as he was to be dictating to Moses, it does seem odd for him to not face Moses.

God made himself known to people in the Old Testament right? Why did he stop doing that?
This is not a question I can answer with absolute assuredness. One reason may be that we now have the Bible, and thus that is His witness account. Also, it could be that there is a new covenant with those on earth. Heck, maybe He just changed His mind. Maybe it was a combo of all three. Maybe there was something else in there. I will admit that I don't know for certain.

If you think God is a long shot now, imagine what it would have been like before the New Testament without these appearances.

Honestly, how much faith would be required if He did just come out and say, "Hey, I'm God. Do as I tell you, because I love you?" Not much, I am afraid.

Great inquisition.

Aluminumia,
Good response, but I still think that if God loved me he would make sure that i know it. Whatever his way of communicating or revealing, im sure he could if he wanted to. After all, God is God. The use of the Bible as God's witness doesnt help for me. I used to think they were God's word, but now just words. How can I trust them?


Honestly, how much faith would be required if He did just come out and say, "Hey, I'm God. Do as I tell you, because I love you?" Not much, I am afraid.

He already did that in the Old Testament and peoples faith was still tested. Abraham and Isaac comes to mind. Being faithful to God is still there. I need something to give me a reason to have faith in any god. Id rather have God say "I am real" than a random believer saying "God is real."

God better be a people person and explain his/her mistake.

How did time start? What was there before the Big Bang? Whatever it was, what existed before it? (Repeat previous question as many times as you like.)

In the course of history, has science ever shown evidence for something to have created itself with no outside catalyst and with basically no matter? This had to have been the case sometime back the line, as I don't think these bangs and line theories go back into infinite. Something has to have caused them to exist . . . something that was not created of something else.

Showing that there was an origin without beginning is not a goal of science. Proving that God doesn't exist is not a goal of science. There may be not be an origin, but a series of causes expanding into infinity. That you can't accept it or explain it wouldn't make it less true. There could be a state of unchanging flow that exists outside time and is, therefore, eternal, from which universes emerge.

But that's not the goal of science, either. To understand the goal of science imagine that we are in a cave, no light, no visible exit, nothing. The only thing you can feel is a piece of rope that you grab with one hand. While religion tries to explain the cave, and why we are in the cave and where the rope leads with stories, science simply says "let's follow the rope and see where it goes."

As simple as that. Maybe God is on the other side, maybe there's nothing, not even an exit, maybe there's something that we can't even imagine. But we will never know, we'll never be sure, unless we follow the rope. And that's what science attempts to do.

Let me turn the question around: if it could be proven scientifically and without doubt that there is no God, would you accept it?

I agree with the title, but the "," should be a ":" or a "=".

:D

That is true considering that Willamena. Why?

From the perspective on God, I would want people to choose me, rather than me to constant run after tiny individuals who say that "God never tried".

The bible says, "Take one step toward me, and I will take a thousand towards you."

And something also along the lines of that it is us who must seek God. So if thats true, which I believe it is since I believe in Gods word, then ultimately its our responsibility to seek God and get from him what we want. There is also a gentleman in the bible who prayed so hard for a breakthrough for something like a month, but never gave up. A month came, and an angel came to him with the breakthrough and the guy asked, "Why did you take so long?"

The angel said to him, "I was sent on the first day you prayed, but I had to fight so hard to get here, it took a month."

It was because the man kept trying even though it seemed a bit harder that he got the breakthrough.

I took that step, years ago, and again more recently (when my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer). He did jack squat, and after long enough, I gave up. Then guess what happened? Months after I had given up on god for a second time (it had lasted a month before it became obvious to me he wasn't doing anything), MODERN MEDICINE began to cure her - not some crazy miracle. A combination of folk medicines and modern treatment at the most advanced cancer center that was accessible has made it so she is fine - the tumor is gone, she can walk easily, and she is as healthy as one can expect from a woman her age.

I haven't ruled out the possibilty of a, or multiple, diety, but if any do exist, they don't care about me, that's for sure.

Of course, mybe it is because my Grandmother isn't Christian, but Hindu. He does get spiteful about those damned pagans, right? And my prayers weren't to any specific diety either - I was being non-denominational! How could any God want to answer a bastard like me, right?

Originally posted by Secluded Islands
Good response, but I still think that if God loved me he would make sure that i know it.
Would salvation through repentance dispite unmerited offerings suffice? It sure would be nice if He were just to come out of the clouds and say, "You know, guys, I really love you." I think that is actually what the Scriptures were for. Among other things, it is a love letter, written to tell us that He loves us, even though He would be perfectly within His rights to destroy us or play with us like Jonathan Edwards would have you believe.

Whatever his way of communicating or revealing, im sure he could if he wanted to.
I agree that He could pop in and say hey. Thing is, He already did. He did it for thirty-three years, and He did it on our terms. In doing so, He is now able to understand what it is like to "be human." He came and was abused to the point of death so that the ultimate sacrifice would be paid, thus abolishing the fear of the law, as death and pain had been the punishments for sin before. Once Jesus Christ beats death, however, it has no authority. Yes, I am sure God could come to you like He came to Adam and Enoch and Noah and Abram. Instead, He comes to you in the message written between the covers of a regular old Bible. That was something that Abraham never had. If he wanted to know God loved him, and God didn't speak directly to him, he had no way of knowing. We do.

After all, God is God. The use of the Bible as God's witness doesnt help for me.
It's actually not supposed to have to. Other believers are supposed to be witnesses as well. Their primary character trait was supposed to be "love, one for another." Unfortunately, there is not much of that today, or heck, in a lot of eras. Look at the early church, though. The one in Acts. Read Philippians 2, and then read Acts 2 to get a visual of what that looks like. It is a foreign concept for us today, because we have all become so narcissistic that we are no different than anyone else, and that is a failure, because Scripture says, "Therfore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has gone; the new has come."

No wonder nobody listens to us. We are the worst examples of what we even profess to believe. I am just being genuine here and giving you a little look into what I have really been pondering and have been struggling with. On one hand, I can't blame you in the least for wanting futher proof. On the other hand, I have seen the proof He does give, and it is life-changing. I am not the same man I was when I was in high school, calling myself an atheist and picking easy fights with Christians, because I knew that their ideas were utterly ridiculous. I can't blame you for wanting more. Nobody sees Christian lives changed drastically. Nobody sees anything different. No wonder we are a joke!

I used to think they were God's word, but now just words. How can I trust them?
You can trust them because they are life-changing. You don't feel it? That's okay. Sometimes, I don't either. It's okay to not feel it. Read the Psalms. David felt like God wasn't answering him all the time. Perseverence kept him going.

In fact, those words are basically the only thing you can trust. Don't rely on Christians to tell you God loves you. It is not that evident in their life. Those words in that little old book tell you, and those words have no immediate agenda behind them. If they did, it would have been taken out around the Dark Ages, when the wrath and justice of God were emphasized and the love and mercy of God was kept away from the people.

He already did that in the Old Testament and peoples faith was still tested. Abraham and Isaac comes to mind.
Abraham's faith in the existence of God wasn't tested. His obedience was. Thankfully, even in that instance, God came through in the clutch, even though He had every right not to (You said it, yourself, He is God. I don't think I can really tell Him what He can and cannot do.).

There is one instance of His mercy. That may seem cruel, but sin is a cruel problem . . . one that we cannot get rid of. Why not? We didn't beat sin or death. All we can do is trust in the one that did.

Too, Abraham did not doubt God's existence, nor His love, when Isaac was on the block. He didn't even have as much to hold onto as we do. He had what he heard from day to day. Didn't get written down. What if he needed a reminder of something God had said? He would have to ask again and hope that God would verbally answer him. We have the letter. We can just go to that to see.

Being faithful to God is still there. I need something to give me a reason to have faith in any god.
A reason . . . I could think of a great one. With a genuine spirit like you have, one that's not convinced because mommy said so, you could be a witness in showing Christians what it means to be a Christian, i. e. Christ-like. That mean you'll never screw up? Nah. That doesn't matter, though. He doesn't expect that. Whether or not the church takes you as you are, God always will. That is His sign of love to you. No matter where you are in live, He will take you and help you (As Jesus said, his yoke is easy and his burden is light.) to be the best you can.

Id rather have God say "I am real" than a random believer saying "God is real."
Especially since most 'believers' don't even seem to care. I know that you would rather hear this from above, but I am speaking on His behalf, from the principles in His Word. He wants you to accept the invitation. I do too. I don't care if you don't go to my church. I don't care if you give no money to any church. I don't care if you don't become some big evangelist. I'm not going to get some merit badge for telling you anything. Your open inquisitiveness is unique, something rare, especially among Christians. There are too many zombies in the church that just accept what they are spoon-fed every week. You are, in fact, already closer to what I would see as a true Christian than many of the people who I see every week in church.

I will pray for you, if you'd like. My e-mail address is jbcora@yahoo.com. Let me know and anything else you would like to talk about.

Iztatepopotla, if it could be proven that there was no God, then yes, I would accept that. However, science is not the end-all in knowledge (though it sure helps). That said, I am of the firm belief that if there was no God, I wouldn't be around to even question it. ;)

Originally posted by Iztatepopotla
Showing that there was an origin without beginning is not a goal of science. Proving that God doesn't exist is not a goal of science.
I know. It can't be. That is somewhat of my disenchantment with science. It doesn't aim to answer that, because it cannot do so.

There may be not be an origin, but a series of causes expanding into infinity.
Which, you have to admit, is as speculatory as anything.

That you can't accept it or explain it wouldn't make it less true.
Exactly. This is why I believe that there is truth beyond science, because there is a truth about how the universe came to be, and how its catalyst came to be, and how its catalyst came to be, etcetera. As this truth can never be explained by science, I find science fascinating and informative, but not absolute and in a category by itself.

To understand the goal of science imagine that we are in a cave, no light, no visible exit, nothing. The only thing you can feel is a piece of rope that you grab with one hand. While religion tries to explain the cave, and why we are in the cave and where the rope leads with stories, science simply says "let's follow the rope and see where it goes."
This is one of the better analogies I have seen on NS. For the record, though, I would say that 'religion' (*cringe* I hate that word.) is not simply a why. It attempts to answer the where, the why, the who, the when, the what. Science is a great thing (In fact, I am of the persuasion that God instituted it, and therefore, it must be good.), but accepting it as the sole way to know something is just as philosophical as any view.

I would change the analogy thus:
As we are in this cave, science is like a rope tied to something, while a relationship with Christ is like a (bear with me, here ;) ) glow-in-the-dark map. You can feel the rope, but you know not where it leads. With the map, you can see where you are going and, consequently, pick the right direction.

You have an interesting outlook on things Aluminumia. Truly God has blessed you with wisdom, and perhaps even the ability to debate. In the meantime, I think really there isnt too much to answer, since you did most of it for me! :)

Anyhow, as for the questions of where in the bible is that fella who had to wait a month before the Angel came, I will do my best to find it for you, since im not sure exactly where it is myself. I'll keep your posted.

As for "if god loved us, he would show it to us in a way that we can see..."

Wouldnt you think that since God has a great plan in our lives, he needs to test us in faith that everything will be cool, no matter what it sometimes looks like? God is a God who makes the impossible, possible, and in doing this I can account that sometimes it feels like Im walking on a tightrope. Yet its crossing the tightrope I must do to achieve the best or to live a life deemed 'impossible'. Yes, sometimes it can get scary, but then God has tested me in faith in such a way that I can rely on God that no matter what it looks like, its all good. Maybe first having faith of his existance is the first step toward this?

And as for those saying if God was a People Person, then he would apoligise for his mistakes?

If God is omnipresent, the beginning and then end, all knowing etc, how could you say that he is wrong, or that he made a mistake? I sure know that I knew everything, there was no way I could make a wrong turn. Just some food for thought.

Although most complain how much the General forum may be tended toward discussion about religion and what not, I think its quiet comedious everytime I visit and have a good laugh at what everyone loves to read, write, and even believe. In the also, I thought that between people respecting each other, I wouldnt mind having a small yarn myself over how people seem to perceive God, since lately I have been amazed at how people are so closed off to the truth of His character.
And you know the truth? :rolleyes:
You know no more then the crazy old guy chanting random words next to the train station down town.

I still wonder why people get so worked up when it comes to religion. It's worse than when it comes to countries and nationality. And I tend to fear religious fanatism a lot more than anything any country can do with nationalism.

A friend of mine said "God may be into people, but I'm not into him, and if he dares to step on my lawn I'll shoot him for trespassing."

I still wonder why people get so worked up when it comes to religion. It's worse than when it comes to countries and nationality. And I tend to fear religious fanatism a lot more than anything any country can do with nationalism.

A friend of mine said "God may be into people, but I'm not into him, and if he dares to step on my lawn I'll shoot him for trespassing."Then tell your friend to rest easy for God will not go where he is not wanted.

Then tell your friend to rest easy for God will not go where he is not wanted.
What would be the point of Him going where he is wanted. If they want Him, then they have faith. If they have faith, then they are "saved". If they are saved, they already have enough God. So naturally, God goes where he is not wanted.

I was a christian not too long ago and said the same thing. 'My life would have no point without God.' Well, here I am, and i still look foward to getting up every day. Really, I got tired of talking to the air. I dont feel gods presence anywhere and If god was real, i would expect him to make his presence known.

Jump! God! Jump! sure lets put God in a box. if you believe in God you follow his lead not the other way around

How else are we supposed to know a god exists if he doesnt make his presence known?
You had said that if God was real you would expect him to make his presence known. I was just curious as to why you have this expectation. Why should God make his presence known? Is the whole point of it for us to know he exists?

You know it sounds like you're preaching to mostly atheists and nonChristians here. And on that note I'm not sure I appreciate the title "for Dummies," as if anyone who hasn't come to the same conclusions as you is a dummy...I saw the book "Islam for Dummies" in the bookshop not so lng ago. It was a "...for Dummies" genuine, yellow cover and everything, but it made me laugh.

Not, I'll have to say, because I "agree with the given statement", but because my mind raced through what some people (yes, in this instance of the Islamic faith) might have thought it was trying to say... (The kind that ban films and books on what they think they are trying to say, but not having watched them. A kind of burkaed Mrs Whitehouse, I suppose, which is a reference maybe only us Brits will understand.. ;))

Anyway, I have no doubt that if they've brought out one for Islam, they have others for other religions, but I'm too lazy to fire up Amazon and wade through all the computing "...for Dummies" titles to extract what other religious ones do exist.

Just a datum point!

Well, I suppose it allows you to avoid the fear of death... why is man so afraid of the inevitable? Even I used to be scared (Before I had a nervous breakdown and lost the abilty to care).

Now I just don't care at all. If god exists i'm sure he'll let me into heaven when I die. I'm sure if he's given us the gift of life we need do nothing else but enjoy his creation. And then we can die with pride and dignity.

Stop listening to the "Laws" given to you by religion. Only follow the basic morals and enjoy life. Admittedly it is most likely the morals were written by man too, but at least they don't totally restrict our lives like the modern church tries to.

Then tell your friend to rest easy for God will not go where he is not wanted.

If god is omnipresent, how can it go somewhere? Isn't it everywhere? If it actually has to go somewhere, then it isn't omnipresent. Which brings up the point, where is it?

So then-why has god trapped us on this world when there's a whole universe out there? It's only thanks to technology we can even get to the moon.

So whats the story Mr. God? why won't you let us leave Earth?

-There's also a theory that on the night Jesus was born, the "Star" was a supernovae from a local galaxy.

Will someone tell me where is this god, what proof is there? Why do I need to believe in a god? I am not a sinner, why believe such rubbish? Why is religion so much middle class? Why is religion anti women? Why is it most people accept religion when they are so down,they would believe in fairies as well? A christian once told a farmer, he was blessed having such good fields with an abundance of crops. The farmer replied, you should have seen the fields before I came along. Be your own person,don't believe in ancient mumbo jumbo, this is the only life you are going to get, live it to the full.

I think god is over there *points* in a box.

Actually, Mattabooloo, I like that farmer story. My mother alway says "You can pray all day long, but the only way to get your work done is to get up on your feet and do it. Praying won't get anything done."

There's a saying around here "Hilf dir selbst, dann hilft dir Gott", basically translated "help yourself, then god helps you".

If you took steps to God and didn't get anything, you were walking down the wrong Path.I don't think I ever really walked down any path (though I feel myself open to possibilities, I just know I can never know them) but the above sounds a bit self-selective. How are you to know which is the right path? You might say "I have been down this path and found it to be right", others (those of other faiths) followed their paths and found themselves to be right*, various people have stated (here and elsewhere) that they took paths and did not find them to lead anywhere, to which you can counter "they were not the right paths" or even "you did not go far enough along them", but... well... this is where a lowly Agnostic (tending towards scepticism) such as myself finds fault with the argument from your perspective, insofar as there is no objectivity and no-one (at least until the gates of St Peter) who can say "yes, your path was true, you should have stuck at it" or offered comiserations at having rolled the wrong dice or... whatever...

Didn't you get to breath your next breath? I'm not saying breathing is proof of God, but if you truly believed and were sincere, to you breathing would be a gift.I tend to think practically. I am only breathing because I inherited the ability from my parents, who would have had to have been breathers to have begat me. And I can see enough to know that, at some point, a breather was begat by 'not-quite-breathers' (or part time ones) whose gas-exchange mechanisms were more efficient for the water, and before then there were those who absorbed the life-giving molecules accordingly and... well, I don't want to denegrate the target of your belief, and I don't want to bring evolution into this thread, but I find breathing an essential part of my person, but I don't consider it a gift (or, at least, not a direct one) but a feature of my structure that has been proven to work well over the millenia in sustaining lives such as mine.

Good point about God and the Church being different. The Christian Religion as a whole tells us nothing about God, manly just stories that people made up so it would be more like Roman Mythology.I must say, despite being Agnostic-cum-sceptic, I don't have a truck with God (I just believe that he does not need me to believe in him) but I really do not have any sympathy with religion, whereby any 'true' representation of any Creator would have long since been diluted by the hand of man. Witness the many divisions in the Christian church (Catholic, Protestent, Unitarian, etc, etc, etc) never mind the rest of the Judeo-Christo-Islamic spectrum, Roman pantheon, Greek pantheon, Egypt and their 'gods coming out of the ears', Aztecs, Incas, etc with their polytheisms, not forgetting more localised Druidism, and untold others...

Me, I intend to inhabit and explore the world by a personal morality that does not rely on their being a 'correct' choice as to religion, that does not favour one image of God(s) above another and does not (indeed) require a Creator or Shepherd to exist.

I will live as good a life as my nature can allow, whether Heaven (possibly, hopefully not, Hell), Stygian Plains, reincarnation, transmutation or plain old Oblivion await me upon death. In fact, it is the possibility of the latter fate (Oblivion) that probably keeps me on the straight and narrow, believe it or not, but that's a discussion for a later time...



(* - There is an interesting parallel there to C.S. Lewis's Narnian example that "things done for good in $EvilGod's name are done for me [i.e. Aslan] and things done for evil in my name are done for $EvilGod, or indeed that God is many faceted and thus there are many paths... However, those are descriptions from the words of man, so who knows...)

I always help myself, need no assistance from a supernatural figure of the mind.

I also wonder what is the "wrong" and the "right" path?

I also wonder what is the "wrong" and the "right" path?

Whatever you think it to be.

How did time start? What was there before the Big Bang? Whatever it was, what existed before it? (Repeat previous question as many times as you like.)What is north of the North Pole? If reality is as of the surface of the Earth and lines of latitude are indicative of time passing, then there exists a visualisable construct that has a begginning without precursor ('top', if you like) and end with no successor ('bottom', the south pole) and is technically unbounded, despite generator/terminator locii, yet finite in size and can exist (in the 'outer dimensions' for eternity... Maybe like whatever deity you believe in lives in the outer dimensions and maintains the entirity of time and space... Well, all I'm saying is that there's an explanation that does not rely on God and equally does not deny Him. And to the residents of the hyper-spherical planet are there ways in which to tilt your view to the heavens to see what exists there? Not in their native dimensions, but maybe that's what revelation brings (or else madness).

I've gone a bit tangential, but you get the (initial) idea...

There's one thing that is allways at the center of the question "is there a god?" and that thing is "time". Where did time come from. What existed "before". etc. etc.

Here's a thought. Time is not a linear thing. Sometimes Before can become After.
The speed at which you move alters the flow of time for you. That much has been prove. Is is so hard to belive that there is no before and no after? Only an endless "now" that alters only by our surroundings and attitudes towards it.

Another thing that a lot of people talk about is "something out of nothing".
Scientists discovered a long time ago that in a void there was a constant production and distruction of matter and anti-matter particles. If there ever was "nothing" then this something that now exists will at some poin cease to exist as these two things eventually only cancel each other out before appearing again. And since time is only a matter of human perception then who's to say that, in the cosmic grand scheme of things, we haven't been around more than a fraction of a second?

And if there is a god...

The Bible isn't a factual account of the history of the world and even if it ever was it wasn't written by those that experienced it. The bible was written after the tales had travelled from person to person for a long time. And there is no bible left in the world in it's original version. All we have is a multitude of translations and no two are the same. There are so many differences that it can not be disregarded as pure chance. Plus the fact that many of the things in the book have been prooven to be mis-translated. Such as Virgin Mary. The word that got translated into virgin acctually ment "young woman". (Not that anyone would have thought that women in that time had any right to say no to their husbands advances.. not after beeing wed at least!)
God hasn't shown his "power" since the days of the old testament.... perhaps he just got bored and left?

First of all: This thread proves that religion isn't just made up of fanatics and fundamentalists.

Second of all: It proves the importance of believing in something. For example, your life could have just as much meaning if you believed in God, in Zeus, in Buddha, in Czardas ;), or even a telephone pole. The people who believe in nothing are cynics, and no-one likes a cynic. I believe, for example, in the power of language and music, and I'm not exactly a depressive person.

Third of all: Even if God doesn't exist, you can believe that there is some good in the world. No wonder so many people are turning to religion in these times of war, terror, greed, murder, and flaming.

I belive in a lot of things... but I am allways open to the possibility of "nothing".. and I just can't refuse a chance to play "devils advocate"

Anyhow, as for the questions of where in the bible is that fella who had to wait a month before the Angel came, I will do my best to find it for you, since im not sure exactly where it is myself. I'll keep your posted.

It's in the book of Daniel, in the Old Testament, chapter 10.

This is an interesting thread. I won't share my experiences, mainly 'cause I just did that on the TIN man's thread (or was it the Lovecraft thread? Anyway, one of them!). But I am a Christian, five years in, and I'm sure this is real life.

I know that a lot of people would actually start with something trying to prove God's existance, but personally I dont think theres any point. If youre not willing to give it a chance that he exists, then you're wasting your time reading. If you're going to consider the possibility, then hey, let me enlighten you my experience on what God is like, so that maybe you can go try for yourself to see if hes real and if he can work in your life. But anyhow, im rambing way too much, so I will get right onto the basic subject, that God is actually, believe it or not interested in people, and hes people friendly. That's nice for you. I'd imagine you'd have no problem with people being staunch athiests/agnostics either. Just a small question, how do you know God?

Originally posted by Arragoth
What would be the point of Him going where he is wanted. If they want Him, then they have faith. If they have faith, then they are "saved". If they are saved, they already have enough God. So naturally, God goes where he is not wanted.

Wanting something and believing in its reality are two different things. I know quite a few atheists and agnostics that have told me, "I wish I could believe in God/a god." He is wanted, yet faith is not there.

I would say, instead, that God goes where there is belief that He might be able to be known. Anyone who is open to that possibility is likely going to listen with somewhat of a reflective and inquisitive mind, yet an open one.
Fair?

Originally posted by E B Guvegrra
I saw the book "Islam for Dummies" in the bookshop not so lng ago. It was a "...for Dummies" genuine, yellow cover and everything, but it made me laugh.
I've seen that, too. I want to see the Hindu version. The thought of that made me chuckle.

Orginally posted by Greater Yubari
If god is omnipresent, how can it go somewhere? Isn't it everywhere? If it actually has to go somewhere, then it isn't omnipresent. Which brings up the point, where is it?
Good question, given the wording of the corresponding post. What is meant is not a physical presence. In saying that He is everywhere, it is not to mean that He is forced to always be everywhere, as that would be confining Him, thus he would be no more in control of where he was than a corpse.

The word 'omnipresent' is actually never used in the Scriptures. It is a fancy word that was originally meant to mean that God has the power to be everywhere at once. His size is not confined and his presence is not confined. The other, weird part, is that He is not confined by time, making things even more difficult to understand, simply because it is impossible to imagine not being controlled by time. Thus, omnipresence is His ability to be anywhere and everywhere, as a result of His character.

However, I don't even think this a physical presence. God is also deemed "all-knowing," thus He knows what all goes on, so in that sense, I would say that He IS everywhere, or at least, He is able to observe everywhere.

Originally posted by The Imperial Navy
So then-why has god trapped us on this world when there's a whole universe out there? It's only thanks to technology we can even get to the moon.

So whats the story Mr. God? why won't you let us leave Earth?
Good question. I am curious, myself. Doesn't mean that He will cater to me and answer, but it can't hurt to ask.

Originally posted by Mattabooboo
I am not a sinner
Actually, as long as you believe that, your belief in or denial of God will not matter.

I would like to hear why you aren't, though.

Why is religion so much middle class?
I personally think it is because of the development of personal vendettas that have accompanied it and have tainted it. If you notice, while all the disciples were not destitute, that was with whom Jesus seemed to spend most his time. Basically, I don't think it is supposed to be, so honestly, your guess is as good as mine.

Why is religion anti women?
It's not supposed to be. However, there are those who have made it seem that way for a long time. I call them 'religiocrats,' because they always bring in their personal agendas and try to make them mandates. Men who thought women inferior used Scripture out of context to try to further their own agenda. Let me put it this way, regardless of what some Christians may tell you, the Bible does not promote the inequality of the sexes.

Why is it most people accept religion when they are so down,they would believe in fairies as well?
Talk to C. S. Lewis. His acceptance had nothing to do with being down. He was also, in fact, convinced of Christianity by a friend who was in no way a Christian.

Those that do believe it would not likely believe in fairies. This seems like a strawman, but I will play with it anyway.

Those people are often down because the other things that they have invested their lives into have not satisfied them or have let them down, meaning they have not lived up to the claims. Unfortunately, Christians who promise "faith-healing," "speaking in tongues," and the like are sorely disappointing and give those who try them a bitter taste of what God is like, because they paint Him as a magical Santa Claus, which is not what God ever claimed to be.

However, no matter how down someone is, if I walked up to them and said that magical fairies would take their problems away, I am doubting much success, unless I am in a psych ward.

A christian once told a farmer, he was blessed having such good fields with an abundance of crops. The farmer replied, you should have seen the fields before I came along.
And a Christian once told me that all black people were going to hell. Don't ever take a Christian's word for it. Check what they say against Scripture. I am not saying that God never interacts with earth on any level. However, this Christian seemed to have forgotten that God instituted natural laws on earth and naturally, if a farmer works hard, there will be produce.

Orginally posted by Greater Yubari
I think god is over there *points* in a box.
*chuckles* Yeah, but He's on the phone with me right now, too. ;)

My mother alway says "You can pray all day long, but the only way to get your work done is to get up on your feet and do it. Praying won't get anything done."
Your mother is a wise woman. Prayer is not a "get-out-of-work" card to play when you are feeling lazy. I heard a similar one.

There was a raffle that was going to be going on in a (name the denomination) church. One of the (name church leader title)s was really wanting to win the raffle. He prayed so earnestly without stopping for days, but there was no answer. Finally, the morning of the raffle, God answered him. "Hint: Buy a ticket."

Christians always pray for miracles to get them out of things that they could have avoided through self-control, responsibility, diligence, etc.

Amusingly, though, this quote ("God helps those who help themselves.") is considered to be one of the most coomonly known Bible verses. Hmm . . . must be in the book of Hezekiah. ;)

Originally posted by E B Guvegrra
What is north of the North Pole?
Haha, I can already see where this one is going. Then, however, we are dealing with apples and oranges, as the North Pole is as north as it gets, where as we have no reason to believe that the Big Bang was the beginning of time. Still, this should be a fun read.

If reality is as of the surface of the Earth and lines of latitude are indicative of time passing, then there exists a visualisable construct that has a begginning without precursor ('top', if you like) and end with no successor ('bottom', the south pole) and is technically unbounded, despite generator/terminator locii, yet finite in size and can exist (in the 'outer dimensions' for eternity...
The institution of reality . . . that is going even further than I was going. I was merely addressing time, but it is fun to toy with other things like this as well.

You are saying that our universe could be within time, yet suspended in dimensions not confined to time? If such was the case, then it has always been and does not change, meaning the universe was always in it, thus the concept is self-refuting. There has to be a beginning of this universe, and something had to exist outside it for it to become. Thus, there had to be a catalyst. If there was none, and this place outside time contains the universe, then the universe had to always be there, making the point stand.

Well, all I'm saying is that there's an explanation that does not rely on God and equally does not deny Him.
I understand the statement, and it has been thought out well. However, I still have a discrepency with the idea of no catalyst. There had to be something that created this universe. If it somehow did come into existence, dsipite being inside the confines of something that is not within time, then the idea of the supernatural is, in fact, real.

And to the residents of the hyper-spherical planet are there ways in which to tilt your view to the heavens to see what exists there? Not in their native dimensions, but maybe that's what revelation brings (or else madness).
It is often hard to distinguish.

I've gone a bit tangential, but you get the (initial) idea...
No problem. To be honest, I loved reading it. The paradox involved is so fun to ponder.

Originally posted by Czardas
First of all: This thread proves that religion isn't just made up of fanatics and fundamentalists.
Yes, the advantage of post-modernism. While it tells me that what I believe is not concretely right (which I disagree with), it does allow my belief legitimacy (which I appreciate).

Originally posted by Freetha
I belive in a lot of things... but I am allways open to the possibility of "nothing".. and I just can't refuse a chance to play "devils advocate"
You and I think alike on the devil's advocate thing. I do it to those I completely agree with all the time. They hate it. ;)

Originally posted by FutureExistence
It's in the book of Daniel, in the Old Testament, chapter 10.

This is an interesting thread. I won't share my experiences, mainly 'cause I just did that on the TIN man's thread (or was it the Lovecraft thread? Anyway, one of them!). But I am a Christian, five years in, and I'm sure this is real life.
Found it. This really doesn't say anything of Daniel praying for such a time. It says he lamented, or mourned, because he had been told that he would be told something, but that something was not revealed as of yet.

I am going to look that thread up, though. I am curious.

Originally posted by Mattabooloo
I always help myself, need no assistance from a supernatural figure of the mind.
Good, me neither. ;)

Just because my parents loved me when I was a child did not mean they catered to my requests at every moment. Sometimes what was best for me didn't make sense. Shots, for example, seemed idiotic, to me. I was supposed to endure pain to prevent pain? Ludicrous, in my limited understanding of what would follow if I didn't have the shot.

I am no longer a child (wish I was, sometimes). I now understand the concept of a shot, and I voluntarily get them when they are deemed necessary. This doesn't mean that I have ever experienced what happens when I don't get one. It means I have been told what would happen, and I believe it, because those who have seen it have told me so.

Whew!

Just because my parents loved me when I was a child did not mean they catered to my requests at every moment. Sometimes what was best for me didn't make sense. Shots, for example, seemed idiotic, to me. I was supposed to endure pain to prevent pain? Ludicrous, in my limited understanding of what would follow if I didn't have the shot.

I am no longer a child (wish I was, sometimes). I now understand the concept of a shot, and I voluntarily get them when they are deemed necessary. This doesn't mean that I have ever experienced what happens when I don't get one. It means I have been told what would happen, and I believe it, because those who have seen it have told me so.
This analogy does not work, though. You could say, "We are to god as a child is to us," but it's meaningless. We're not children. We are adults. We are the end result of our maturity. We have to make our own decisions; that's something the child cannot do, because we, as adults, don't allow it. God does not disallow us anything.

Jump! God! Jump! sure lets put God in a box. if you believe in God you follow his lead not the other way around

Sure lets follow GOD! wait, where is he? Oh thats right, i dont know. I cant follow him then.

You had said that if God was real you would expect him to make his presence known. I was just curious as to why you have this expectation. Why should God make his presence known? Is the whole point of it for us to know he exists?

I cant be expected to believe in a god unless that god lets me know he really exists.

I cant be expected to believe in a god unless that god lets me know he really exists.
Okay, but that doesn't answer what I asked. You had said that if God was real you would expect him to make his presence known. Why should he? So you can believe?

Okay, but that doesn't answer what I asked. You had said that if God was real you would expect him to make his presence known. Why should he? So you can believe?

Yes, so that I could believe.

Amen Austar Union, to all that you have said. And I pray you others will see it, too.
God Bless

Wow... what a thread, and what an eclective mix of responses

I'd like to answer a few of the questions put forward with my own views, although I shall add the disclaimer that these are my point of view, and intend no disrespect to other's beliefs.

Originally Posted by Extradites
But that's all irrelivant at the end of the day because I'm just to rational and obsessed with the truth to believe in such things as gods and the supernatural. I cannot believe in something when everywhere I look I see evidence contradicting it.

Well, I've always believed that when you look at the intricate beauty of nature, that it seems almost incomprehensible to me, that such a thing would have no creator. Nature itself, to me, is living proof of His handiwork.

Originally Posted by Iztatepopotla
Sorry, I just don't see God's hand in anything. All the choices I've made, the good ones and the bad ones, have come from myself and my experience, and advice from good friends. And yet I find myself enjoying life and being happy and decent without any need of God. Go figure!

I think that in this world are many good people who live good lives without God. However,to echo Austar's words.. he is like the 'fifth wheel', the extra sparkle that makes the good times better, and the bad times able to be coped with better.

Originally Posted by Khulfi
I am genuinely happy for you Austar Union, and i hope that your life stays on the so-called right track. but how do you mean 'experience'. could you explain that to me? ty

and Extradites, i would like to know what this proof you see is

I've always been fortunate to see God playing an active role in my life. I guess experiences are simple ones like when things turn out well like exam results, my car costing less to fix at the garge, finding a lost item etc.
However, the real 'proof', and that's the wrong word really, is those spiritual experiences where I've felt so happy I could cry, and my body tingled all over with the influence of God's spirit confirming the truth of something to me. Some timesit was when talking about a certain gospel principle, bearing testimony of truth to another, or them to me, prayer, or during a certain spiritual activity. Acts of service to others is a good one too - I often feel a kind of spirituality after them.

Originally Posted by Secluded Islands
...If god was real, i would expect him to make his presence known.

Wow.. lots of people talked about this. He has :) The main question is how. God does choose certain very righteous men to be his prohets and He will appear to them. However it is not expected that he will appear to everyone as this would deny us the chance of faith in Him - which is kind of one of the biggest parts of the purpose of life. For us mere ordinary folk. We can often feel His spirit confiming things to our mind, or perhaps as a warm happy feeling or a tingly feeling inside.
Also there has to be more than merely seeing God too. Lots of people saw God or angels etc. in the Bible, but not all of them stayed righteous. A more spiritual connection than mere sight alone is needed.

Originally Posted by Jester III
Sorry, but even when i still cared about God, and took severeal steps towards him, nothing ever came back.

Sometimes things do take time, and often in a relationship with God you would not notice the changes until later - in retrospect. However sometimes the change can be marked and I have seen people change overnight. A lot of this, in my opinion, is about taking the right steps. Sometimes the most important thing about getting to know God is understanding His nature correctly to begin with.
Doing good stuff is great, but not the best thing for getting to know God. I would earnestly recommend a good read of the CS Lewis collection - particularly Mere Christianity.

Originally posted by Nova Roma
Who is to say who's religion is right or wrong?

My favourite question. The answer: God. I honestly believe that if a religion is truly God's own, then He would tell you if you prayed and asked Him. This is actually a big part of my own religion, as we expect people to get an answer before joining.

Originally posted by Secluded Islands
Why could he not just show himself? You say we cannot see God or we would die. What about: Gen.32:30 "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

I honestly believe that he did see God face to face - as plain as the Bible says he did. My own religion also believes that God has appeared to righteous men in these modern times. Men are transfigured when God appears tothem otherwise, yes they would die. But you have to be very righteous to start with. Note that Jesus didn't actually appear (in visual form) to Saul on the road to Damascus, yet he did later when he was Paul, the saint.

Originally Posted by Aluminumia
How did time start? What was there before the Big Bang? Whatever it was, what existed before it?

I see the big bang as merely the creation of this universe, or rather parts of this universe. That odd planets may appear to be older is fine with me. Creation is an ongoing cycle of continual improvement of God's children: Us. Hence I also believe in there being other universes and other human populated planets than ours. As for the big bang itself. Well, God follows his own rules and if that's how you create a universe, that's the way he'd do it.

Originally Posted by Greater Yubari
There's a saying around here "Hilf dir selbst, dann hilft dir Gott", basically translated "help yourself, then god helps you".

Yup. My thoughts exactly. You put in some effort of your own and then God will help you. Sometimes he gives us inspiration or ideas, sometimes he prompts other people to help us. Occasionally He says - you can do this one yourself.

Originally Posted by Greater Yubari
I also wonder what is the "wrong" and the "right" path?

Again I'm all for praying and asking God if it's His will or not...

Orginally posted by Greater Yubari
If god is omnipresent, how can it go somewhere? Isn't it everywhere? If it actually has to go somewhere, then it isn't omnipresent. Which brings up the point, where is it?

Hmm an example I often used was the Sun. It is stnading in one place, yet it's rays, light and warmth, stretch over the earth. God himself, in my beliefs, has a perfect glorious body and therefore he is actually in one place, but his spirit and power can stretch over all things and in all places. His presence is everywhere.

Originally posted by The Imperial Navy
So then-why has god trapped us on this world when there's a whole universe out there? It's only thanks to technology we can even get to the moon.

So whats the story Mr. God? why won't you let us leave Earth?

I believe that God gives great men (and women) the ideas and inspiration to create such advanced technology. However, even if we got to the outer reaches of the galaxy, would it change anything about humanity, really?

Orgininally Posted by Willamena
This analogy does not work, though. You could say, "We are to god as a child is to us," but it's meaningless. We're not children. We are adults. We are the end result of our maturity. We have to make our own decisions; that's something the child cannot do, because we, as adults, don't allow it. God does not disallow us anything.

I think the analogy works perfectly. My belief is that we may become (eventually, after this life) as God now is. Therefore we are indeed God's children and as such the realtionship of one in an advanced state to one who is younger and less experienced is perfect.

Originally Posted by Secluded Islands
I cant be expected to believe in a god unless that god lets me know he really exists.

Well, I believe the whole point to be that you have Faith that God exists, and that through his spirit you come to a knowledge without ever actually seeing him. Spiritual confimation is theproof he gives. And faith in him, and to follow his commandments and will is the objective of life

Thanks for listening.

Kouros of Pandect

Wanting something and believing in its reality are two different things. I know quite a few atheists and agnostics that have told me, "I wish I could believe in God/a god." He is wanted, yet faith is not there.

I would say, instead, that God goes where there is belief that He might be able to be known. Anyone who is open to that possibility is likely going to listen with somewhat of a reflective and inquisitive mind, yet an open one.
Fair?

On the contrary, my amigo, in this case they are the exact same thing. If you have faith in him, then you want him. Your athiest friends don't want God, they want to want God. And if they want to want God, but don't really want God, whose fault is that?
It can't be their fault, since they want to want God. They are making an effort to want God, nothing more could possibly be asked of them. Naturally God would try to help those who want to want God.
For God to ignore those who don't believe in Him would destroy His image of "all goodness." There is absolutely nothing bad about not believing in God. How can people be expected to believe something they have absolutely no proof of? If the idea of God never came to the world, would everyone go to hell? In fact, faith has nothing to do with God. Faith is in the people that wrote the bible/<enter book here>, and the Jewish/Christian/<enter religion here> cultures. I hardly find the Council of Hippo a very trustworthy/knowledgeable source for my religion.

On the contrary, my amigo, in this case they are the exact same thing. If you have faith in him, then you want him. Your athiest friends don't want God, they want to want God. And if they want to want God, but don't really want God, whose fault is that?
It can't be their fault, since they want to want God. They are making an effort to want God, nothing more could possibly be asked of them. Naturally God would try to help those who want to want God.
For God to ignore those who don't believe in Him would destroy His image of "all goodness." There is absolutely nothing bad about not believing in God. How can people be expected to believe something they have absolutely no proof of? If the idea of God never came to the world, would everyone go to hell? In fact, faith has nothing to do with God. Faith is in the people that wrote the bible/<enter book here>, and the Jewish/Christian/<enter religion here> cultures. I hardly find the Council of Hippo a very trustworthy/knowledgeable source for my religion.

Congrats on a most excellent post. ;)

I took that step, years ago, and again more recently (when my grandmother was diagnosed with cancer). He did jack squat, and after long enough, I gave up. Then guess what happened? Months after I had given up on god for a second time (it had lasted a month before it became obvious to me he wasn't doing anything), MODERN MEDICINE began to cure her - not some crazy miracle. A combination of folk medicines and modern treatment at the most advanced cancer center that was accessible has made it so she is fine - the tumor is gone, she can walk easily, and she is as healthy as one can expect from a woman her age.

I haven't ruled out the possibilty of a, or multiple, diety, but if any do exist, they don't care about me, that's for sure.

Of course, mybe it is because my Grandmother isn't Christian, but Hindu. He does get spiteful about those damned pagans, right? And my prayers weren't to any specific diety either - I was being non-denominational! How could any God want to answer a bastard like me, right?


Notice how the pro-religion testimonials are 'great evidence', but the ones against religion are never really argued?

Originally posted by Willamena
Originally Posted by Aluminumia
Just because my parents loved me when I was a child did not mean they catered to my requests at every moment. Sometimes what was best for me didn't make sense. Shots, for example, seemed idiotic, to me. I was supposed to endure pain to prevent pain? Ludicrous, in my limited understanding of what would follow if I didn't have the shot.

I am no longer a child (wish I was, sometimes). I now understand the concept of a shot, and I voluntarily get them when they are deemed necessary. This doesn't mean that I have ever experienced what happens when I don't get one. It means I have been told what would happen, and I believe it, because those who have seen it have told me so.


This analogy does not work, though. You could say, "We are to god as a child is to us," but it's meaningless. We're not children. We are adults. We are the end result of our maturity. We have to make our own decisions; that's something the child cannot do, because we, as adults, don't allow it. God does not disallow us anything.
The analogy was not an analogy of progression. It was an analogy of wisdom. I am wiser than a child. God is wiser than I. That was the comparison. For the record, I think there is always the ability to continue to mature. If there is an end result to maturity, then there is a perfect human being.

While we do have to make our own decisions, we are still only allowed to make ones that are not restricted by our state as human beings, just like a child is restricted in what it can do because it is a child. This does not speak to progression. It was speaking to a present state. I do understand what you are saying, and I apologize if my analogy came across as unclear. It was not one to explain my progression. It was comparing Aluminumia the child with Aluminumia the adult.

If I would have compared a different child to myself at this current time, maybe it would have made more sense. I am sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by Arragoth
Originally Posted by Aluminumia
Wanting something and believing in its reality are two different things. I know quite a few atheists and agnostics that have told me, "I wish I could believe in God/a god." He is wanted, yet faith is not there.

I would say, instead, that God goes where there is belief that He might be able to be known. Anyone who is open to that possibility is likely going to listen with somewhat of a reflective and inquisitive mind, yet an open one.
Fair?



On the contrary, my amigo, in this case they are the exact same thing. If you have faith in him, then you want him.
The problem with this is to say that I will believe everything I want to believe. For instance, I do not want to believe that there is a hell. In the words of one of my youth group guys, "That royally sucks." This doesn't mean I actually believe that there is no hell. So, wanting to believe something and believing it are not the same. A man can want to believe in God and yet not believe in Him.

You said, "If you have faith in him, then you want him." This is true, but this is only because this is something that is appealing, and not because of faith. As I stated before, just because I believe something does not mean I like it. The reverse is also true. It works both ways. A man can believe something he doesn't want to believe. He can want to believe something he doesn't believe.

Your athiest friends don't want God, they want to want God. And if they want to want God, but don't really want God, whose fault is that?
I actually told one this last night, and he said that such was not the case. This is a very self-reflective man, and he told me, "As much as I hate to admit it, I think you are wrong about God." He wants to believe. That doesn't mean he does. He also said I should call you a presumptuous asshole for trying to dictate what he thinks, but I know better than to think that's what you were doing. ;)

It can't be their fault, since they want to want God. They are making an effort to want God, nothing more could possibly be asked of them. Naturally God would try to help those who want to want God.
This is assuming He hasn't done enough already. Honestly, His message is not humanly popular. He admits that. The point of it is submission, which is not a popularity with humanity. Why would you willingly submit to a master, essentially becoming a self-made slave (or bondservant, as Paul calls it)? Good question. One reason is the assurance that He wouldn't abuse that. Most still wouldn't, though. Thus, I don't expect anyone who is not in such a relationship to live by my lifestyle. This is why I separate church and state. Christianity is not government, and frankly, both end up corrupt when it is throughout history.

For God to ignore those who don't believe in Him would destroy His image of "all goodness."
This may stem from the idea that God must cater to us if He is good. If God created our current world, then He has no responsibility to it. However, because He cared enough to even make it possible to avoid eternal destruction, I see care. Though He may not make our problems go away on earth, I am still convinced that He loves because He did not make the minute span that life on earth holds the part that was fixed and then not give us the ability to be eternally saved. Basically, the fact that He provides for my eternal state makes me realize that the temporary, though real, time between birth and death are almost consequential. I do not mean to dismiss the pains of others and I am not asserting that I do not feel these, myself. I am saying that there is that which is to come that is better than if this world was fixed to perfection.

How can people be expected to believe something they have absolutely no proof of?
. . . Like the idea that science is the only way we can know something. ;) Sorry, I just had to throw that in there.

In fact, faith has nothing to do with God.
I will agree, whole-heartedly, since I believe God exists, regardless of our faith.

Maybe there are people who want to want to believe. Hell, maybe there are people who want to want to want to want to want to want to want to believe. That wasn't my point. My point was that you do not have to like what you believe. and you may not always believe what you want to.

I've enjoyed this conversation, though.

The analogy was not an analogy of progression. It was an analogy of wisdom. I am wiser than a child. God is wiser than I. That was the comparison. For the record, I think there is always the ability to continue to mature. If there is an end result to maturity, then there is a perfect human being.

While we do have to make our own decisions, we are still only allowed to make ones that are not restricted by our state as human beings, just like a child is restricted in what it can do because it is a child. This does not speak to progression. It was speaking to a present state. I do understand what you are saying, and I apologize if my analogy came across as unclear. It was not one to explain my progression. It was comparing Aluminumia the child with Aluminumia the adult.

If I would have compared a different child to myself at this current time, maybe it would have made more sense. I am sorry for the confusion.


The problem with this is to say that I will believe everything I want to believe. For instance, I do not want to believe that there is a hell. In the words of one of my youth group guys, "That royally sucks." This doesn't mean I actually believe that there is no hell. So, wanting to believe something and believing it are not the same. A man can want to believe in God and yet not believe in Him.

You said, "If you have faith in him, then you want him." This is true, but this is only because this is something that is appealing, and not because of faith. As I stated before, just because I believe something does not mean I like it. The reverse is also true. It works both ways. A man can believe something he doesn't want to believe. He can want to believe something he doesn't believe.


I actually told one this last night, and he said that such was not the case. This is a very self-reflective man, and he told me, "As much as I hate to admit it, I think you are wrong about God." He wants to believe. That doesn't mean he does. He also said I should call you a presumptuous asshole for trying to dictate what he thinks, but I know better than to think that's what you were doing. ;)


This is assuming He hasn't done enough already. Honestly, His message is not humanly popular. He admits that. The point of it is submission, which is not a popularity with humanity. Why would you willingly submit to a master, essentially becoming a self-made slave (or bondservant, as Paul calls it)? Good question. One reason is the assurance that He wouldn't abuse that. Most still wouldn't, though. Thus, I don't expect anyone who is not in such a relationship to live by my lifestyle. This is why I separate church and state. Christianity is not government, and frankly, both end up corrupt when it is throughout history.


This may stem from the idea that God must cater to us if He is good. If God created our current world, then He has no responsibility to it. However, because He cared enough to even make it possible to avoid eternal destruction, I see care. Though He may not make our problems go away on earth, I am still convinced that He loves because He did not make the minute span that life on earth holds the part that was fixed and then not give us the ability to be eternally saved. Basically, the fact that He provides for my eternal state makes me realize that the temporary, though real, time between birth and death are almost consequential. I do not mean to dismiss the pains of others and I am not asserting that I do not feel these, myself. I am saying that there is that which is to come that is better than if this world was fixed to perfection.


. . . Like the idea that science is the only way we can know something. ;) Sorry, I just had to throw that in there.


I will agree, whole-heartedly, since I believe God exists, regardless of our faith.

Maybe there are people who want to want to believe. Hell, maybe there are people who want to want to want to want to want to want to want to believe. That wasn't my point. My point was that you do not have to like what you believe. and you may not always believe what you want to.

I've enjoyed this conversation, though.

Wow, I would like to congradulate you on using more quotes in a single post then I have EVER seen. The quote of a quote was a nice touch too.

I don't have time to respond to every single thing, but I'll try to clear up a few things. Faith is a positive word. You don't have faith in a cerial killer killing someone, but you can have faith in a friend helping you when you are in need. My basic point is how can someone go to hell for not believing in God? If they don't believe in God, it isn't something they control. No matter how much you may want to, if you don't, ya don't.

My proof comment had nothing to do with science. What I meant is, when has God revealed himself to everyone? If he did, it was in the ancient times. All we have to go on is a book by unknown authors, and an old guy with a tall hat and crosier... If you ask me that isn't too great.

Originally posted by Arragoth
Wow, I would like to congradulate you on using more quotes in a single post then I have EVER seen. The quote of a quote was a nice touch too.
Ah, what a breath of fresh air, for someone to defy the normative responses that are always so serious. Thank you, kind sir. I appreciate the gesture, though I didn't even really think about that when I was posting it.

Disagreement should be like this more often. You are only the second person that has been able to keep a disagreement with me light-hearted, or at least not malicious or full of cheap-shots. That is a real testament to your character and maturity. Kudos.

I don't have time to respond to every single thing, but I'll try to clear up a few things. Faith is a positive word. You don't have faith in a cerial killer killing someone, but you can have faith in a friend helping you when you are in need. My basic point is how can someone go to hell for not believing in God? If they don't believe in God, it isn't something they control. No matter how much you may want to, if you don't, ya don't.
You are absolutely correct. Faith is a positive thing. Belief, however, need not always be. I believe my parents will die one day. That doesn't make it positive. Belief should not be on what one wants, but upon what one is compelled.

I do agree, though that faith is a positive thing. Scripture also agrees with you (I Corinthians 13).

My proof comment had nothing to do with science. What I meant is, when has God revealed himself to everyone? If he did, it was in the ancient times. All we have to go on is a book by unknown authors, and an old guy with a tall hat and crosier... If you ask me that isn't too great.
Then again, we have even less proof of the three great Greek philosophers, especially Plato. If we are to believe that these men even existed, then it would seem odd to believe that the Bible is not historically accurate because it refers to evidences that happened at that time, if not now. In fact, you can then doubt all historical accounts of events of the BCE era, as there could very well be errors made in copying down that history.

As far as the man with a tall hat and a crosier . . . I don't think he's the vicar of Christ any more than you do. Nice guy, maybe. Educated, certainly. Holy . . . eh . . . I have my doubts, especially looking at the history of the papacy. Christianity does not teach that the church is perfect and infallable. In fact, the church has really f***ed things up more than a few times in history. The pope, however, is supposed to be infallable and sinless. I would wonder what they would have considered sin, then.

I think this thread has turned more into a "God Exists" verses, "Doesnt Exist" debate, as does most. But can I say one thing regarding the entire arguement.

If you really want proof that God exists, then let him give you proof. Unfortunately, this comes after the fact of when you give him a shot. This is why I urge you not to just believe in him because of what I say or what other people say, because thats hardly proof at all. The best proof is your own two eyes, and if you really want to know the truth, then give God a real go in your life from a neutral inquisitive perspective. My pastor in fact didnt really believe in God until he gave his life to Him. He said, "God, if you really exist, then let me have you..."

I think really then, if you truly have the right heart and really open yourself up to his spirit, then you will see the proof you are looking for. First comes the desision, then come the fruits of your labour. Not the other way around. In the meantime, as for some people wondering how I can claim to know God, I can tell you how. I get to know God through prayer, worship, praise, and reading his word daily. It is if I dont do these things that I feel a lack of direction in my christian walk, and I will be more suceptable to fall out of relationship with Him. Spending time with him is a great way of giving him an opportunity for him to reveal himself and his word with you. If you want God to magically appear and say "Hey Im God...", then you will be waiting for a long time. First have faith, then you will see what I see, feel what I feel. Give him a chance, and you too can experience his 'fifth wheel' in your life.

And can I be so rude to say, if your not willing to give him a chance to give you the proof that hes there, then you are the blindest of them all. In fact, I would prefer that you dont post here, because I dont want critics, I want actual people who really care and wonder. To recieve comments from someone who just blatently doesnt believe, nor doesnt want to believe is a waste of my time, and yours. The bible says:

Take one step toward him, and he will take a thousand steps toward you...

It never says

Wait for god to take a thousand steps toward you, and you will take one step toward him...

Thats the way things work around here, so if you dont like it, deal with it. If your willing to maybe give him a chance, then listen to what he says to you, which by the way comes in the form of the bible, a love letter to you. Listen to what it says, not to what you seem to think in our heads, because if God is all powerful and all knowing, then he isnt misdirecting you. Your head on the other hand, can, since its knowledge is very limited. Im sorry if this post sounds very harsh, but im saying as it is. These are the facts, and if you dont believe me then thats your choice. I understand.

Thats the way things work around here, so if you dont like it, deal with it. If your willing to maybe give him a chance, then listen to what he says to you, which by the way comes in the form of the bible, a love letter to you. Listen to what it says, not to what you seem to think in our heads, because if God is all powerful and all knowing, then he isnt misdirecting you. Your head on the other hand, can, since its knowledge is very limited. Im sorry if this post sounds very harsh, but im saying as it is. These are the facts, and if you dont believe me then thats your choice. I understand.
I think you should re-read this paragraph. There isn't a single "fact" in it, only theories.