NationStates Jolt Archive

So, you ready for my craziest post topic ever? Here goes!

Here's the difference between the US and China. Twelve aircraft carriers, and the supporting modern navy. You see, we know the rule, one NEVER starts a land war in Asia. So, how do you subjugate China? Containment my friends, containment. Blockade their coast, don't let goods out, and starve them for oil. Make them push westwards, piss of the Arabs and get a Jihad declared on their asses. Eventually, for lack of oil and foreign markets, China's multi-million man army will be crippled. And the blockade will eventually be able to force the issue.

So, you're saying China tries to use it's nukes. Fortuneately for us, the Chinese nuclear arsenal is only twelve ICBMs, non-MIRVs. Old rockets too. Pilfered from the Soviets. Sooooooo...these things would be fairly easy shootdowns for the US Interceptors and Air Based Lasers. From what I've seen the Chinese of no long range bombers.

So the Chinese turn the NKs loose on the ROK, and use their short-to-medium range nukes against places like Taiwan and Japan. Fortuneately IRBMs and TBMs are easy kills for AEGIS and Patriot III missile systems.

Now there's always that pesky problem of Chinese ownership of US debt. If we get into a shooting war with China, I'm all for the "screw you" option, which basically involves saying "hey, guess what, the T-bills and stuff you have are now worthless. We owe you nothing." Now admittedly, this isn't very nice, but it handles the problem.

here's how you lose the war with China.

Blockade them. Watch them leave the other way buy using treaties with all the nations they are passing through. By the way, their army is big enough to put two chinese soliders in every arabs house.

Watch China invade through the east coast.

I'll tell you how you win a war with China. Don't let them catch on to their AIDS problem and fight a war of attrition until the vast majority of their population is terminally ill. Then declair all of the American debt they own null and laugh.

Blockading China would seriously piss off all other nations who have business dealings with them.

The size of the Chinese population would matter very little in a modern war. A huge mass of disorganized, poorly armed and poorly trained people is nothing but a herd heading for slaughter. The Chinese army suffers from all the same diseases as any other totalitarian regime's armed force. Hit their command and communication centers Gulf War II style- and they will lose.

Problem is, they're modernizing their navy and preparing to deal with the American military. Given twenty years they should be ready to fight a real war with us.

Which I must admit, as an American, is upsetting.

Ein Deutscher']Blockading China would seriously piss off all other nations who have business dealings with them.

This is probably the real reason why the US could never win a war against China.

The size of the Chinese population would matter very little in a modern war. A huge mass of disorganized, poorly armed and poorly trained people is nothing but a herd heading for slaughter. The Chinese army suffers from all the same diseases as any other totalitarian regime's armed force. Hit their command and communication centers Gulf War II style- and they will lose.

Is their army really that disorganized? I don't think it's that bad.


This is probably the real reason why the US could never win a war against China.

Sure! Look at the row that was caused over the invasion of Iraq. That's small potatos compared to China.

That's a good point. The world is really too economically complex to have the kind of wars we used to have. It would shatter the fragile environment we've constructed.

But, still. If China moved on Taiwan.. Jeez, what the hell would happen? It's a fightening prospect.

The US should not involve themselves in this conflict. It's between Taiwan (a part of China) and the rest of China. It's as if China intervenes when California decides to leave the US and China threatens the rest of the US with war if the US decides to act militarily to keep their country together.

We're bound by international law to help, Ein. Treaties and whatnot.

At least, that's how I understand the situation to be. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

I personally disagree with the stance my government has made (removing its recognition of Taiwan as a country diffrent to China). If these people want out then it's their choice IMHO. However I do not see China moving over Taiwon unless the Taiwanese government officially announces its independance. If China resorted to the nuclear option (which I doubt because they'd be left with nothing but a glowing parking lot) over the island I would definately side against them.

The nuclear option should not be an option.

Ein Deutscher']The US should not involve themselves in this conflict. It's between Taiwan (a part of China) and the rest of China. It's as if China intervenes when California decides to leave the US and China threatens the rest of the US with war if the US decides to act militarily to keep their country together.

The last time the US said it would not involve itself in a conflict between other countries, Saddam marched right into Kuwait and the rest was history.

When the blockade of china put wal mart out of business and tanked our economy, the response might even be impeachment.

wow wow wow...hold on there...there's a huge differen between Taiwan and California. I admit I don't know much about this subject. I know that Taiwan claimed to speak for the chinese population in the UN for a long time, that it was "founded" by refugees that were fleeing from Mao and his buddys. But I for my part have a really hard time seeing Taiwan as patrt of China...It has been part of it in the past but today...Don't know it sounds kinda ridiculous...

When the blockade of china put wal mart out of business and tanked our economy, the response might even be impeachment.

Exactly. That's the real reason why any attempted action against China would never succeed; because the US economy is so dependent on Chinese goods that the people (and the corporations) would rally against it.

That's a good point. The world is really too economically complex to have the kind of wars we used to have. It would shatter the fragile environment we've constructed.

But, still. If China moved on Taiwan.. Jeez, what the hell would happen? It's a fightening prospect.

Globalization is moving faster then governments can keep up with. Is what we're seeing now 'growing pains'? Probably. Obviously the kind of situations we're discussing are not congruous with the way the global economy is shaping up to be; that is, it's becoming too global for major wars to break out. There is the alternative that we've struck a balance of power between the energy producers (Middle East, some South American and African nations, Norway, Russia), the producers of raw materials (I guess most countries do this), the assemblers of raw materials (any source of 'cheap foreign labor'), the marketers (nationless corporations), and the buyers of finished products (countries like the United States that are allowed to have inconceivable debt in order to keep profits flowing for the others). What could alternative energy sources do to this? Does energy independence erode away at globalization? What happens when the balance shifts and the Middle East suddenly has no more energy to produce or China and India (at least significant portions of their population) suddenly become the consumers of finished products? Is this relationsip/balance even relevant? So many more things could result from this then war between the US and China, but does it play a role?

I saw an article last week that seemed to be related to this thought but I never read it so I'm afraid I can't regurgitate anything useful. It's bed time for this night owl so I won't think for myself now. Just some food for thought.

The size of the Chinese population would matter very little in a modern war. A huge mass of disorganized, poorly armed and poorly trained people is nothing but a herd heading for slaughter. The Chinese army suffers from all the same diseases as any other totalitarian regime's armed force. Hit their command and communication centers Gulf War II style- and they will lose.



Yah, that worked brilliantly against the Viet-Cong didnt it?

The best way to win any war is in fact not going to war. There are no winners in war.

if you believe what nostradamus said then China allies with the Arabs, they wipe out europe and have the upper hand in the war for 20 or so years. And all this is supposed to happen after the pope is matyrd or something.

Anyways....

I think you fellas have forgotten about a little country called North Korea. If the US goes to war against China, North Korea would step in and they have a helluva lot more nukes

if you believe what nostradamus said...

Then you're a dunce.

But no one here believes "what nostradamus said" so it isnt an issue :)

The best way to win any war is in fact not going to war. There are no winners in war.While this may be true, we're talking about the possible reality of war between China and the United States. John Lennon aside, it's an objective discussion of logistics.

if you believe what nostradamus said then China allies with the Arabs, they wipe out europe and have the upper hand in the war for 20 or so years. And all this is supposed to happen after the pope is matyrd or something.

LOL! Ridiculous! Why would Chinese (total Atheists) ally themselves with Arabs (islamic fundamentalists, for most part)? That's utter nonsense. And why would they wipe out Europe? The only ones in world who could want that are certain *weird* people in the US.
And yes, who believes Nostradamus, anyways? Didn't he predict the world would end in 1999 or something? Doesn't look like that has exactly happened... :D


I think you fellas have forgotten about a little country called North Korea. If the US goes to war against China, North Korea would step in and they have a helluva lot more nukes

You know what? I have the feeling most people are just paranoic about the Chinese, and i think that is prettymuch unjustified. Cold War is long-since over, and China isn't exactly what passes as a communist country anymore. Folks like Lenin and Mao would get mad in their graves if they'd see modern-day China. :D
China is going to be #1 economy in the world within a few years, placing the US to the 2nd or maybe even 3rd place. You'll have to live with that. I mean, it's a very simple matter: nobody can be #1 forever.

Regarding North Korea, i think this will be solved by the Chinese themselves since they probably don't want a nuclear war in their backyard.
Regarding Taiwan, i suppose that this situation will also resolve by itself, mainly because of the economic interactions between Taiwan and mainland China.

I suspect you seriously underestimate the Chinese. The very first rule of war is, "Know your own capabilities." The second is, "Never underestimate your enemy."

Hmm... how to win a war against China? Well I don't know much about China, but this is how I'd go up against a major world power.

Well, before open war broke out we would probably have covert operatives and other assets doing reconisiance work. We would have these assets start sowing disent amoung the general population, sparking demonstrations against the government. Once the military gets involved to put down these demonstrations our president would get up on the soap-box and start yelling "Hey! you can't do that!" and incourage the people to overthrow the current government and install a democracy. Now our operatives will begin pushing the populace toward a general rebelion, aimed at the govrnment. The assets will begin arming "freedom fighters", and after several conflicts the govenment will be forced to ask the UN for a peace keeping force. And who always provides the bulk of any UN peace keeping force? Thats right, we do. Now that we are in the country, we will engauge a series of stalling tactics to prolong the weakening of the country's infastructure. Once the internal conflict dies down, we will remain in the country under the guise of "helping in the rebuilding process", sending in more troops and eventually installing officials that agree with our point of veiw.

Maybe not winning a "War", per say, but we do end up getting what we want in the end.

I suspect you seriously underestimate the Chinese. The very first rule of war is, "Know your own capabilities." The second is, "Never underestimate your enemy."

Amusing. As if this would hold true for the current US military operation in Iraq... :p

The easiest and cheapest way to win a war nowadays is biological warfare. The japanese used it against china in WW2 and pwned, just breed your own killer bacteria, inject your soldiers with the vaccine and bomb the enemies with it. Wait a couple of days for it to spread and then send in your soldiers to finish off any survivors. If it was against a huge army like chinas it would spread like wildfire, wiping out millions. After that you still have all the facilities intact and barely damaged, meaning more money for the victors

Blockading China wouldnt work. They'd just move north and take siberia - guess what, full of oil! Ever read "The Bear and The Tiger" by Tom Clancy? (I think thats the right title, if not please tell me!)

And who always provides the bulk of any UN peace keeping force? Thats right, we do.
Nope, you do not.

While I agree that biological warfare is a cheap method of waging war once the initial outlay for facilities has been made, there is too much risk of it all turning pear-shaped for it to be used by an invasion force. For instance, what if the vaccine batch for your paratroopers had spoiled, making it ineffective? Or a random mutation occurs in the strain you're using, making your vaccine ineffective. Bear in mind these are just logistical points; there is also the rreaction by the world public at the fact that you have just infected several million people with the plague or smallpox or.....

Remember, The Black Death killed (depending on who your source is) between one third and two thirds of Europe, and originated in China.

Another option is the neutron bomb. It's a type of nuclear weapon that has very short-term radioactivity, does not destroy much infrastructure, and yet the high energy neutrons will kill most things within several kilometres. Thus, the factories will be yours, ok the computer microcontroller units might be freid by the blast, but you won't have to deal with any defenders, plus the radiation decays to "safe" levels within a matter of days.

The problem with a blockade to prevent oil getting in is that there are, from memory, a couple of oil pipelines under construction to bring oil from the old Soviet Central Asian republics, such as Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. So, unless you want to greatly widen the conflict, China does have another source of oil. Other than that, and other fossil fuels, China is largely self-sufficient when it comes to military needs. I'm not sure about any uranium deposits in China, but they're not really necessary for the Chinese army to resist an invasion force.

Anyone doing research on this is welcome too, especially if my memory on the oil pipelines is off and that last comment was full of excreta.

Wanna beat China? yeah right. impossible. but I say

Don't push them around, just fight them fair and square. Why? While China has allies either through similar Communist(well....thats a different story, more like quasi-communism) or through fear. America still has one or two countries that are allies through "true" love.

America would easily slash a majority of China's invading force since we would see it coming from a long ways. China would have to control the Air and Sea before they could get to us on land. This would cause a lot of trouble for China, eventually, I presume China would make it on land. Well all I have to say is: (1) Good luck and (2) We have taxi drivers, christians, rednecks (didn't I just say christians? *wink*), ex-military, hunters, arsonists, and plenty of criminals.

Ahh, yes... but China has Ninjas ;)

Ahh, yes... but China has Ninjas ;)


Uhmm....that was Ja-

Sigh...

and stone soldiers and 400 year old batteries

And America's economy by the balls.

Question to you folks: Is there anybody amongst you who is insane enough to actually want a war with China?!? That would be scary... :eek:

Hmmm, looking at some of the reactions of the people to the economics issue, particularly the null and voiding of debts. If that were to occur, who on earth would ever deal with American corporations anymore? Practically everybody would simply close shop there because you'll never know when your country may be the next to find all those IOUs to be so much toilet paper.

I'd like to see what all those coporations would have to say once they can't get cheap labor, import raw materials and nobody doing business with them. Not to mention the havoc it is likely to play in the stock market.

Mass lobbying for impeachments? Possibly. Large sized coporations are a power to be reckoned with in the political arena.

War with China?
The sooner the better.

War with China?
The sooner the better.

Yikes. I hope that wasn't meant seriously. You know that this would probably mount into a nuclear war with potentially billions of people dead? There would be no winner in such a war. :(

Sooner or later all the trade that the power players of international gov't (US, China, Britain, Etc) will rely so heavily on foriegn goods that one of two things could happen:

1)There are no more wars due to the fact that no body wants a stoppage in trade.

2)One nation attacks another nation that exports a good that a lot of nations import. Nation A pisses off nations B-T, then some of nation A's allies, lets call them Nations U-Z come in with Nation A, and what do we have, World War III folks. Enjoy!

Sooner or later all the trade that the power players of international gov't (US, China, Britain, Etc) will rely so heavily on foriegn goods that one of two things could happen:

1)There are no more wars due to the fact that no body wants a stoppage in trade.

2)One nation attacks another nation that exports a good that a lot of nations import. Nation A pisses off nations B-T, then some of nation A's allies, lets call them Nations U-Z come in with Nation A, and what do we have, World War III folks. Enjoy!


well i'd guess that every war between two major economic or military powers would be very likely to end in WW III...simply because the strategic situation of the world with treaties and aggreements is very much comparable to the situation in Europe before the break-out of WW I. Dozens of entagled treaties that just needed a little spark to start the fire and *wooop* we got most major powers involved. but I mean seriously...I don't think anybody would have a chance to win a war between two major pwoers today....come on the US which has the most advanced military in the world as I have heard somewhere can't even bring peace to a realtively small desert nation...how the hell are they supposed to conquer and control a country as large as China?

Oh and the other way around it would probably be pretty much the same. Unless of course one side starts using nukes. Then most likely most of us would end up being killed, no matter where you live and wether you're really involved in a war like that.

Wanna beat China? yeah right. impossible. but I say

Don't push them around, just fight them fair and square. Why? While China has allies either through similar Communist(well....thats a different story, more like quasi-communism) or through fear. America still has one or two countries that are allies through "true" love.

America would easily slash a majority of China's invading force since we would see it coming from a long ways. China would have to control the Air and Sea before they could get to us on land. This would cause a lot of trouble for China, eventually, I presume China would make it on land. Well all I have to say is: (1) Good luck and (2) We have taxi drivers, christians, rednecks (didn't I just say christians? *wink*), ex-military, hunters, arsonists, and plenty of criminals.

Exactly, if the CHinese landed with their millions of soldiers, they would be up against millions of beverly hillbillies armed to the teeth with shotties and handguns, and millions that have experience in using them from shooting moving deer from hundreds of yards away to shooting targets in a shooting range...

Beware th rising of the Rednecks, this is the only beginning! They'll take over the world and force their West Virginian ways upon us! *shudders* that's a creepy thought...

And who always provides the bulk of any UN peace keeping force? Thats right, we do.

African nations have actually been providing large numbers of peace keepers in recent years, the west gives alot of cash and heavy equipment(and crews).

I'm really getting the impression from this thread that most of you don't know much about China. Lemme explain a few things:

1) China's military, though larger in numbers than the US' total population, is poorly equipped and poorly-trained. They effectively have no navy and a miniscule air force. Most people in the army are farmers' sons who want to find a living when they can't get into university (which happens in China a lot.) They could in theory overrun an invading army, but there is little they can do outside of their borders.

2) China is a DEVELOPING COUNTRY, despite its surging economic growth. What you are seeing is what happens when sheer numbers overpower certain economic realities. There are enough PEOPLE able to spend cah for it to be worth investing in the short run, but in the long run it's likely the country will see unprecedented urban poverty (it's starting to happen in Shanghai and Shenzhen already) and will NEVER solve its rural poverty problems. China never has historically, and it's following the same patterns it always has when faced with this problem: make sure the people at the top have all the resources and hope enough trickles down to keep the common people from rioting.

3) The farmers are already starting to riot, and China is doing "well" economically. A war might temporarily galvanize the populaton (China is EXTREMELY nationalistic) but when they started to experience poverty, suffering, famine, and other consequences of war, the rural population who'd be taking the brunt of the casualities would rebel. If they're starting to in peacetime, no doubt they would if they were saddled with war.

4) China's internal boundary problems would surface with a vengeance. The country is not all that centralized, and the government barely controls most of its frontier areas. If the major economic zones suffered too much monetarily, they would likely break off from China and try to create their own regions or city-states. The border and autonomous regions in the country are already a headache to the central government. If you think Taiwan is a problem now, imagine if China was at war? How about Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong and Macao? Think they'd sit back and act all patriotic towards Beijing? NOT LIKELY. This is a common pattern in Chinese history as well.

In short...China is totally unprepared for war, the consequences of it would be catastrophic, and most importantly, it's bad for business. Why even discuss having a war with China? Why start on that bullshit road about the next superpower?

Here's a thought: maybe we don't have to have superpowers (or their showdowns) at all. Right now, even the United States is questionable as a superpower. I think I prefer it that way.

DUDES! Why do you want to have a war with China? What have they ever done to provoke a war or a negative reaction! Leave them alone, they are an elightened peaceful people with a lot of hardships within their nation. We in the west could learn alot from them.

here's how you lose the war with China.

Blockade them. Watch them leave the other way buy using treaties with all the nations they are passing through. By the way, their army is big enough to put two chinese soliders in every arabs house.

Watch China invade through the east coast.

LMAO

China doesnt have the cash or reasources for a large scale mobilization of the PLA. Not to mention they dont have a Navy either (compared to the US). And in any case, any war with China would be becuase they invaded Taiwan, and then it would be a simple matter of getting allies together. The last time I checked the rest of the world wasnt so keen on the idea of Chinese occupatuion of Taiwan.

I don't thinkK China can push out. Though I doubt they can be conquered as well.

I'm still curious how strong the People's Army really is. We've seen them unisonly rally to prevent national disasters like the Yellow River Crisis of 1998. But would they be that nationalistic to fight if a war breaks out. Remember that they all could be souped up with propoganda. Unlike American's.

However, those who have it easy would rather be happy with their money and break up like from Beijing like Ge Ren says. Oh yeah, their all easily bought with $$$ too.

Btw, I think blockading their ports may not be the best option. China is rich in resources especially northern China. Plus, they might just push South down the coast to Oil Rich Malaysia and Indonesia if their desperate. I doubt they'll be that dumb to go west through India and Pakistan. It's too far, and logistically nighmarish with mountains and deserts needing to traverse.

I'm wondering why this thread is apparently full of warmongers who wish to wage war against the Chinese for no reason.

Hmm... this reminds me about a well-known flash animation... (link) (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/endofworld.html)

I am Chinese. Not China Chinese though :p.

But they really are a strange bunch in China. Always trying to prove they are better. In a way it's Good, but I don't like their methods.

Because waging war on your international neighbors seems to be the popular thing to do nowadays. Curiously enough, I wonder how many of the people who actually want war waged on China are American? It would be interesting to see the demographics.

Make them financially dependent on you as a major market for their goods.

If they make war on you, they'll be slitting their own throats.

Oh, that's what the US is doing to China already....

Make them financially dependent on you as a major market for their goods.

If they make war on you, they'll be slitting their own throats.

Oh, that's what the US is doing to China already....

True.. So true.

So, you ready for my craziest post topic ever? Here goes!

Here's the difference between the US and China. Twelve aircraft carriers, and the supporting modern navy. You see, we know the rule, one NEVER starts a land war in Asia. So, how do you subjugate China? Containment my friends, containment. Blockade their coast, don't let goods out, and starve them for oil. Make them push westwards, piss of the Arabs and get a Jihad declared on their asses. Eventually, for lack of oil and foreign markets, China's multi-million man army will be crippled. And the blockade will eventually be able to force the issue.



Twelve aircraft carriers.. 10 Onyx mach 2.9 anti ship missiles fired by these (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/su-30mk2.htm) things later, per carrier, and after some time, you have no Carriers.

Or perhaps some of these buggers:
http://www.periscope.ucg.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/minetorp/torpedo/w0004768.shtml

The chinese have them too.

Seriously, should China start a war, i'd support the USA, but as Eutrusca said, the Chinese should NOT be underastimated.

Is their army really that disorganized? I don't think it's that bad.
It can be made to. The US "early war stage" strategy, demonstrated in Iraq, is to hit command and communication centers quick and hard in order to disorganize the enemy force. Totalitarian armies, including that of China, constantly discourage initiative of the lower rank officers and soldiers, forcing them to obey the top rank and never to do anything without their explicit approval. So the Chinese CAN be disorganized by a successful massive air strike.

Twelve aircraft carriers.. 10 Onyx mach 2.9 anti ship missiles fired by these (http://mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/flankers_pages/su-30mk2.htm) things later, per carrier, and after some time, you have no Carriers.

Or perhaps some of these buggers:
http://www.periscope.ucg.com/mdb-smpl/weapons/minetorp/torpedo/w0004768.shtml

The chinese have them too.

Seriously, should China start a war, i'd support the USA, but as Eutrusca said, the Chinese should NOT be underastimated.


The problem with firing the Onyx missiles is getting in range. Given that a carrier usually handles intercepts of threat aircraft several hundred miles away from the carrier group, you're probably not going to get within range - it's the standard threat scenario that a carrier group is built to stop. Not to mention the AEGIS cruisers in the vicinity - you're going to have to get in range AND fire more than a hundred missiles - and you still might not hit the carrier.

The problem with the fast torpedo is getting in range. It's also a nuclear weapon, and the range is so short the sub that fires it will be destroyed as well - that's the designer's intent - it's a last ditch revenge weapon, to be used when the sub is discovered.

No Chinese sub is going to get within range of the carrier.

[QUOTE=Coreview]

Another option is the neutron bomb. It's a type of nuclear weapon...

Hey einstein maybe you don't understand how a nuclear weapon works. The atoms give of protons, which hit the nucleus of another atom making it unstable so that it gives of protons, starting a chain reaction. If an atom gives of a neutron another atom will take it, all it does is make isotopes.

Of course using a fission weapon of any sort will result in the rest of the nations having the distinct option of discarding any inhibitions towards using their own nuclear stockpiles.

And of course that gives China the moral advantage to respond in kind.....

The thing is we're selling our scrap steel to China. Right now China is stocking oil, making gas prices here sky rocket. Sounds quite a bit like pre-ww2 japan doesn't it. War between China is not a matter of if, but when.

Right now there are millions of Chinese immigrants in the US. Who knows how many of them could be combat trained, sent by China to attack when they say go.

We're also selling destroyers to Taiwan, China will try to take those. Korea will be right behind the Chinese. So will various previous soviet states. The way the war will be won is ww2 style, superior air power, and tank combat.

The only hard part about bombing them is the fact that most of the country is mountainous, and as Osama has shown, you can hide there.

[QUOTE=Coreview]

Another option is the neutron bomb. It's a type of nuclear weapon...

Hey einstein maybe you don't understand how a nuclear weapon works. The atoms give of protons, which hit the nucleus of another atom making it unstable so that it gives of protons, starting a chain reaction. If an atom gives of a neutron another atom will take it, all it does is make isotopes.

You don't know how a nuclear weapon works. It's not protons.

Nuclear fission occurs when the nuclei of certain isotopes of very heavy elements, isotopes of uranium and plutonium for example, capture neutrons. The nuclei of these isotopes are just barely stable and the addition of a small amount of energy to one by an outside neutron will cause it to promptly split into two roughly equal pieces, with the release of a great deal of energy (180 MeV of immediately available energy) and several new neutrons (an average of 2.52 for U-235, and 2.95 for Pu-239). If on average one neutron from each fission is captured and successfully produces fission then a self-sustaining chain reaction is produced. If on average *more* than one neutron from each fission triggers another fission, then the number of neutrons and the rate of energy production will increase exponentially with time.

Two conditions must be met before fission can be used to create powerful explosions: 1) the number of neutrons lost to fission (from non-fission producing neutron captures, or escape from the fissionable mass) must be kept low, and 2) the speed with which the chain reaction proceeds must be very fast. A fission bomb is in a race with itself: to successfully fission most of the material in the bomb before it blows itself apart. The degree to which a bomb design succeeds in this race determines its efficiency. A poorly designed or malfunctioning bomb may "fizzle" and release only a tiny fraction of its potential energy.

Weikel- "Right now there are millions of Chinese immigrants in the US. Who knows how many of them could be combat trained, sent by China to attack when they say go."

Two words: pure paranoia

That's a good point. The world is really too economically complex to have the kind of wars we used to have. It would shatter the fragile environment we've constructed.

You are aware that a book was published with that very thesis in 1913, aren't you?

You are aware that a book was published with that very thesis in 1913, aren't you?
Look at the post WWI world...yeah.

The thing is we're selling our scrap steel to China. Right now China is stocking oil, making gas prices here sky rocket. Sounds quite a bit like pre-ww2 japan doesn't it. War between China is not a matter of if, but when.

Right now there are millions of Chinese immigrants in the US. Who knows how many of them could be combat trained, sent by China to attack when they say go.

We're also selling destroyers to Taiwan, China will try to take those. Korea will be right behind the Chinese. So will various previous soviet states. The way the war will be won is ww2 style, superior air power, and tank combat.

The only hard part about bombing them is the fact that most of the country is mountainous, and as Osama has shown, you can hide there.
LoL what hillarious xenaphobia, the foreign exchange student down the hall isn't just a engineering major, he is a member of the Maoist vanguard force; lets throw his ass in an internment camp!

Seriously I think a lot, if not most Chinese immigrants are from Taiwan, or at least I see a shitload of Taiwan flags whenever I go through Chinatown NY. I gurantee you 99.99 percent of Chinese people in America are more concerned with downloading songs for their ipods than toppling the American government.

LoL what hillarious xenaphobia, the foreign exchange student down the hall isn't just a engineering major, he is a member of the Maoist vanguard force; lets throw his ass in an internment camp!

Seriously I think a lot, if not most Chinese immigrants are from Taiwan, or at least I see a shitload of Taiwan flags whenever I go through Chinatown NY. I gurantee you 99.99 percent of Chinese people in America are more concerned with downloading songs for their ipods than toppling the American government.
Yeah, in the US there is a much greater support base for the ROC than for the PRC. In fact, a lot of Chinese in the US are refugees from the PRC, or the Chinese Revolution. That's been my experience anyways.

And, wow, I expected this thread to die really quick, but somehow my late-night rant got me a good thread going! Aha!

And, wow, I expected this thread to die really quick, but somehow my late-night rant got me a good thread going! Aha!

Well, to quote yourself, it's the craziest topic ever. :p

Look at the post WWI world...yeah.

I'm just saying, even though it may do horrific damage to the world economy, it can still happen. That book was arguing that war was impossiible for those reasons, I thought you were arguing the same.

For the originator of this thread, the USN has 7 aircraft carriers, not 12.

For the one who stated China has a miniscule air force, well...

"The Chinese air force, known as the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF), is the third largest in the world. The PLA Air Force was formally organised in 1949. Its origins, however, can be traced to the 1930s when the Chinese Communist forces acquired aircraft belonging to the Nationalist Government. The force was further increased in 1946 with captured Japanese aircraft and in 1949 when the Communists gained control of mainland China.

The 1950s heralded a period of rapid modernisation with the Soviet Union supplying large numbers of jet aircraft and providing aircrew training. The PLA Air Force saw some impressive actions in the 1950s Korea War and the 1958 Taiwan Strait crisis. Deteriorating Sino-Soviet relations climaxed in 1960 when the Soviets recalled their technicians and withdrew military aid. By then, however, China had aircraft production facilities in the Northeast and some experience in jet aircraft production. China began to build MiG-17 jet fighter under Soviet license in the late-1950s. By the late 1960s, China was able to begin series production of a range of Soviet designs including fighter aircraft, bombers, transport aircraft, and helicopters.

Today, the PLA Air Force consists of 330,000 personnel, operating some 3,500 aircraft, over 1,000 surface-to-air missile systems, and several thousand anti-aircraft artillery. As a result of China’s ongoing force reduction and military modernisation, the size of the PLA Air Force has been decreasing since the mid-1980s, with most of its obsolete aircraft based on the 1950s-era Soviet designs being retired from service.

While the service continues shrinking in quantitative terms, the same is not necessarily so qualitatively. The modernisation of the PLA Air Force has introduced some momentous advances in terms of both service hardware and capability. During the past decade the PLA Air Force has purchased over 120 Russian-made Sokhoi Su-27 and Su-30 fighter aircraft, and is accepting indigenously produced third-generation aircraft such as the J-10, J-11 and JH-7. At the same time, elderly aircraft such as J-7, J-8 and Q-5 are being upgraded with better advanced avionics and weapon suites to enhance their performance. The next generation stealthy fighter aircraft is also currently under development.

Additional to the progress in combat aircraft, the PLA Air Force is quickly developing its capabilities in new areas such as the aerial refuelling tanker aircraft, airborne warning and control system (AWACS) aircraft, airborne electronic warfare/countermeasures (EW/ECM) aircraft, long-range transport aircraft, advanced training aircraft, and unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs). The PLA Air Force is also obtaining the latest weapon systems including the Russian-made S-300 (SA-10/-12) surface-to-air missiles, R-77 (AA-12 Adder) medium-range air-to-air missiles, and accurate-guided ground strike weapons.

Although the PLA Air Force is still generally regarded as obsolete compared to Western air forces, it has already made some impressive progress in the past decade. As the PLA is transforming itself from an obsolete giant to a smaller, but more capable and modernised force ready to fight a local war under high-tech conditions, the PLA Air Force is expected to play a more important role in the future of warfare."

Direct from <http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/default.asp>

As one person said earlier on, China's military is undergoing full modernization. 20 years sounds good for it to have something comparable to the US in terms of technology.

My belief is that it would be a hard fought war on either side if it were to happen. I do not know who would likely win but I believe in an endurance China would win.