NationStates Jolt Archive

It is quite usual to hear Irish nationalist historians refer to the Potato Famine of Ireland as a genocide committed by the British in a malicious attempt to wipe out the Irish. However such is a gross exageration of the truth. Read on...

1. DEPENDENCY ON POTATOS: As powerful as they were, the British could not have really done a great deal to stop the Potato Famine when the potato was such a staple part of the Irish diet. Due to its durability, the potato wss the favourite crop of all Irish peasants and it was easy to grow too. This is why the potato famine had such a massive effect: because there were very few alternatives available to the Irish. Also note that the British did not unleash the potato blight: that was an act of nature that no one could have stopped and no one can be held responsible for.

2. EARLY BRITISH REACTION Sir Robert Peel (Tory Prime Minister in 1845 when the famine started) actually started a large scale relief attempt which managed to (briefly) stave off the worst effects of the famine for about a year. However Sir Robert was deposed after the dispute over the repeal of the Corn Laws and the Liberals were brought into government. They stopped most official food aid (for reasons why I shall explain later) and discouraged private attempts to help. Why would a Conservative government have aided the Irish if indeed all British governments were set out on eliminating the Irish?

3. LIBERAL THEORY At the time of the Irish famine, there was a very influential historian/civl servant whose name was Thomas Macaulay. Macaulay had stated the theory of the 'Empire of Good Intentions': essentially an idea which stated that once the British had stayed in a country long enough, it would no longer need British protection as it would be advanced enough and then it could be allowed to remain a volunatary member of the Commonwealth, bound by gratitude to the motherland. In order to achieve this self governance, decided Macaulay, it would be necessary for the natives to have to handle their own problems. This theory was followed by many Liberal British statesmen, including George Trevelyan who was the civil servant who dealt with the Irish famine. He and the rest of Whitehall believed that the only way in which Ireland would be able to obtain self goverance would be by sorting out their own problems i.e. sorting out the Famine without British aid. So they promptly stopped Peel's aid attempts and discouraged private citizens from sending aid. Instead they set up the many work outfits, who essentially paid the Irish poor wages to dig roads to nowhere. Of course this action is fairly undefendable but it cannot really be described as genocide. It was far more a severe miscalcuation on the extent of the famine and the extent with which the Irish would be able to deal with it.

3. UNAWARE? The Liberal government was very much out of touch with the severity of the situation in Ireland and that is also a possible reason for their under-reaction. Also many British people still lived with stereotypical images of the Irish - they believed them to be lazy and so believed that if they would work hard the famine could be stopped. Of course once again neither is really defendable but still it is more of a severe case of miscalculation and arrogance on the behalf of the British.

4. PIRIVATE ATTEMPTS - Private british citzens did try to aid the Irish by sending corn and grain stocks over in small quantities. However as they were only private attempts, they were small, poorly organised and generally ineffective considering the scale of the problem. Once again lack of knowledge rather than genocidial intentions are to blame here: the British public were simply unaware of the scale of the problem and those with the faintest inkling chose to blame it on racial stereotypes rather than British inaction and general incompetence.

The potato famine was caused by the liberals, silly. :D

The potato famine was caused by the liberals, silly. :D

Of course it was. The conservatives would have wiped out the Irish much more efficiently. :D

1. DEPENDENCY ON POTATOS[/B]: As powerful as they were, the British could not have really done a great deal to stop the Potato Famine when the potato was such a staple part of the Irish diet. Due to its durability, the potato wss the favourite crop of all Irish peasants and it was easy to grow too. This is why the potato famine had such a massive effect: because there were very few alternatives available to the Irish. Also note that the British did not unleash the potato blight: that was an act of nature that no one could have stopped and no one can be held responsible for.

It might be more accurate to say that the potato was the favorite crop because it provided an efficient way to extract carbohydrates and protein from the tiny plots of land the tenant farmers were granted for their own use.

I do not think the Famine was an attempt at genocide, or even that its tragic consequences were entirely England's fault. However, it was atrocious that the Irish were living as tenants to the invader Sassenach in the first place, and so werre prevented from using their labor and land to keep themselves alive.

As much as I'd have liked the Irish to be wiped out (car-bombing cowardly bastards who want to overturn democratic referenda in Northern Ireland) it wasn't actually miscalculation. The Irish were dependant on potatoes, and a bad harvest coupled with infected potatoes (a fungus was actually making many of them inedible) was to blame. The Irish brought it upon themselves through their sheer dependency.

It might be more accurate to say that the potato was the favorite crop because it provided an efficient way to extract carbohydrates and protein from the tiny plots of land the tenant farmers were granted for their own use.

I do not think the Famine was an attempt at genocide, or even that its tragic consequences were entirely England's fault. However, it was atrocious that the Irish were living as tenants to the invader Sassenach in the first place, and so werre prevented from using their labor and land to keep themselves alive.

So do you think we have the right to treat Scots badly? After all, they were invaders and the British were here first. :)

It is quite usual to hear Irish nationalist historians refer to the Potato Famine of Ireland as a genocide committed by the British in a malicious attempt to wipe out the Irish. However such is a gross exageration of the truth.

It isn't an entirely baseless accusation... the Brits did try to wipeout every other race of people that got in their way of progress.

As much as I'd have liked the Irish to be wiped out (car-bombing cowardly bastards who want to overturn democratic referenda in Northern Ireland)

As if the warmongering British don't have blood all over their hands...

It isn't an entirely baseless accusation... the Brits did try to wipeout every other race of people that got in their way of progress.

That's an immaterial statement based on a poor education. How depressing. The Scots were involved in the Genocide of the picts, as were the Iirish (for the scots were Irish originally). The English were never involved in Genocide, indeliberate or otherwise. Funny how people tar the English with the bad-guy brush, when it's actually the Scots and irish who have behaved far worse in the past.

As if the warmongering British don't have blood all over their hands...

War Mongering? Pax Britannia was welcomed in almost every colony and territory. Grow a brain, the British were never involved in Genocide and in comparison to the US we are by no means war mongers.

For those of you who are unaware about the history behind the Irish Potato Famine, here's a primer:

It can be argued that it begun during the early years of the 1800's. Irish landlords enjoyed great success during this time because the prices for agricultural products were high, due to war. After the French at Waterloo were defeated however, the prices fell. The English-Irish landlords quickly found that they could get more money by turning their land of small farming plots into grazing lands. There was a small problem though...what would they do with the hundreds of tenant farmers living on their estates?
This was a very small problem with a simple answer. They just merely kicked the Irish families out and off of their land (even if their rent was fully paid up) and destroyed the huts the workers lived in so they could not return.

The Irish reply to this outrage was the making of more secret organizations to carry out midnight raids. Some of these organizations were called Rightboys, Thrashers, Ribbonmen, and Whitefoots. The English response to the Irish response was quick. They set up a program of shipping offenders to Australian prisons. Even the most minor of offences received severe sentences--for example, one man who was caught stealing glue was sentenced to Australia for seven years. Any crime that was even a little serious received a life sentence.

As the nineteenth century progressed, the Irish became very dependent on the potato for their main food source. In fact, a majority of rural people lived on it completely (the potato is one of the few foods that has all the basic vitamins necessary to maintain a human life).

Several English committees that studied the economic situation in Ireland warned that if there was a major failure of the potato crop, extensive starvation would result. All these warnings were ignored.

In 1845, this is exactly what did happen. A disease attacked the potato crop and half of the crop was destroyed. People harvested the few potatoes they had and prayed that next years crop would be a better one. But the crop of 1846 was worse than the previous year. To add to the misery, that winter was the one of the worst recorded. When the 1847 crop failed also, the Irish population of the whole nation was faced with starvation. This is when the first wave of immigrants escaped their starving homeland. During this period, the population of Ireland fell from 8 million to 5 million, due to immigration and starvation.

All throughout the years of the horrific famine, which continued past 1847, the English government was unwilling to give any money to Ireland to help with the famine because, as they said, "the Irish will use it only to buy guns to revolt against them." They were also reluctant to provide material aid such as soup kitchens because, "they will get used to the free food and never become of be self-sufficient."

As an example of English generosity towards the Irish, when Americans (primarily Quakers) offered to send food to Ireland, England demanded that the food be first landed in England and then transferred to English ships--to assure that the English's shipping interests were fully employed.

Author C.W. Smith, an Englishwoman, was dumfounded by the way her countrymen were behaving during the famine years. She commented; "It is not characteristic of the English to behave as they behaved in Ireland. As a nation, the English have proved themselves of generosity, tolerance, and magnanimity, but not when Ireland is concerned. The moment the very name of Ireland is mentioned, the English seem to bid adieu to common feeling, common prudence, and common sense, and to act with the barbarity of tyrants and the fatuity of idiots."

Ironically, during these tragic years it was only the potato crop that failed in Ireland. Wheat, oats, beef, mutton, pork, and poultry were all in excellent supply but the Irish-English landlords shipped these to the European continent to soften the starving there and receive a very good profit in return.
So while scores of Irish were starving to death and being forced to eat grass and weeds to survive, ships were leaving Irish ports loaded with food.

Just in case anyone was wondering as to the animosity the Irish have towards the English.

As much as I'd have liked the Irish to be wiped out (car-bombing cowardly bastards who want to overturn democratic referenda in Northern Ireland) it wasn't actually miscalculation. The Irish were dependant on potatoes, and a bad harvest coupled with infected potatoes (a fungus was actually making many of them inedible) was to blame. The Irish brought it upon themselves through their sheer dependency.
Ever wondered why they were so dependent on an introduced crop to survive?

Most of those Landlords were actually Irish...so no, I don't know why the Irish continue to attempt to impress people living in Ulster into the Republic. Continue to bomb school buses. Continue to be rude and bolshy towards British people.

Ever wondered why they were so dependent on an introduced crop to survive?

Irish Landlords= greedy. Deal with it. The English were not directly responsible.

War Mongering? Pax Britannia was welcomed in almost every colony and territory. Grow a brain, the British were never involved in Genocide and in comparison to the US we are by no means war mongers.

What good are those types of comparisons? By comparison to the Chinese Government, I've never told a lie.

Also, the British are implicit in the genocide carried out against the Native Americans, the instigation of numerious civil wars throughout Africa and the enslavement of India: and that barely touches on the surface.

Twas genocide, the British forced the Irish to grow mostly wheat which they could not keep any, so they planted and ate potatoes. The laws in effect prevented the Irish from eating the wheat, hunting, fishing, and gathering since it was considered the lord's land although he was in GB.

What good are those types of comparisons? By comparison to the Chinese Government, I've never told a lie.

Also, the British are implicit in the genocide carried out against the Native Americans, the instigation of numerious civil wars throughout Africa and the enslavement of India: and that barely touches on the surface.

Enslavement? That's anti-imperialistic jargon. India wanted us to come back, and many Indians still do. Really.

Native American genocide was almost entirely at the hand of the Americans, well into the 1950s. So don't even begin to suggest that Bullshit.

The 'Scamble For Africa' was not a war of genocide, but of colonialism. Where's the genocide evident under British rule? It began once the British LEFT.

Twas genocide, the British forced the Irish to grow mostly wheat which they could not keep any, so they planted and ate potatoes. The laws in effect prevented the Irish from eating the wheat, hunting, fishing, and gathering since it was considered the lord's land although he was in GB.

That made me laugh :D

That's an immaterial statement based on a poor education. How depressing. The Scots were involved in the Genocide of the picts, as were the Iirish (for the scots were Irish originally). The English were never involved in Genocide, indeliberate or otherwise. Funny how people tar the English with the bad-guy brush, when it's actually the Scots and irish who have behaved far worse in the past.

Um not really. The Irish and Scots did nothing reprehensible such as lets say preventing the Irish from eating. It was deliberate, they needed Ireland to grow food for them, less Irish people more wheat they could grow and less food they have to get from trade and they would be all set.

I think that Everymen has the wrong idea about the Irish. The majorty of Irish people aren't "car-bombing cowardly bastards who want to overturn democratic referenda in Northern Ireland", in fact most Irish people want a lasting peace in Nothern Ireland, this was proven when the Republic ammended the constitution in 1998 giving up claim to Nothern Ireland. Irish people want peace and are willing to give up a part of the island to do so. Of course there are some who want to continue fighting for a 32 county Republic but the majority of people accept that its no longer a reality of it happening, so what people want know is a way forward to live in peace and comments of the like of those by Everymen are what lead to the stirring of emotions and to the creation of trouble. I think before talking about Irish people and the Irish race Everymen should do a little research!

That made me laugh :D

What part? The twas one?

I think that Everymen has the wrong idea about the Irish. The majorty of Irish people aren't "car-bombing cowardly bastards who want to overturn democratic referenda in Northern Ireland", in fact most Irish people want a lasting peace in Nothern Ireland, this was proven when the Republic ammended the constitution in 1998 giving up claim to Nothern Ireland. Irish people want peace and are willing to give up a part of the island to do so. Of course there are some who want to continue fighting for a 32 county Republic but the majority of people accept that its no longer a reality of it happening, so what people want know is a way forward to live in peace and comments of the like of those by Everymen are what lead to the stirring of emotions and to the creation of trouble. I think before talking about Irish people and the Irish race Everymen should do a little research!

At first I thought you meant everybody until i realized Everymen was a countries name. He should have a more distinctive name.

Um not really. The Irish and Scots did nothing reprehensible such as lets say preventing the Irish from eating. It was deliberate, they needed Ireland to grow food for them, less Irish people more wheat they could grow and less food they have to get from trade and they would be all set.

The Irish and Scots wiped out a race...the Picts.

What part? The twas one?

The whole things, and the shamelessly incorrect biased.

Enslavement? That's anti-imperialistic jargon. India wanted us to come back, and many Indians still do. Really.

It's a pity that you're not lonely in being divorced from reality.


Native American genocide was almost entirely at the hand of the Americans, well into the 1950s. So don't even begin to suggest that Bullshit.

Uhm... and which Americans are you speaking of? The Irish-Americans, the African-Americans, the German-Americans, or the British-Americans?

The 'Scamble For Africa' was not a war of genocide, but of colonialism.

As always, points will be missed.

From realizing that everymen is posting the tyep of posts he is is making me wonder what was the highest level of education he had. Everyone knows that the Irish didnt start anything, it was the Anglo-Saxons who kicked them off of GB get Scotland who was ruled by the Scotties (Celts) and try to kill the Irish (Celts). Wait I see a pattern here. Uh oh. Are there anymore Celtic tribes or people of Celtic descent? If so run from the British.

The Irish and Scots wiped out a race...the Picts.

Care to offer proof?

It's a pity that you're not lonely in being divorced from reality.




Uhm... and which Americans are you speaking of? The Irish-Americans, the African-Americans, the German-Americans, or the British-Americans?



As always, points will be missed.

Well, All kinds of Americans. Remember the Buffalo Soldiers for example. Every American, kind of American, was involved in the genocide of the native Americans. As they were no longer British, blaming the British is foolish.

Plus, as a historian, I don't believe I'm divorced from reality...merely objective in my readings. :)

Care to offer proof?

The Scots are originally from Ulster, and they wiped out the native inhabitants of Scotland (The Picts) in a series of territorial wars. There's your proof, where are the picts and who lives in modern Scotland?

From realizing that everymen is posting the tyep of posts he is is making me wonder what was the highest level of education he had. Everyone knows that the Irish didnt start anything, it was the Anglo-Saxons who kicked them off of GB get Scotland who was ruled by the Scotties (Celts) and try to kill the Irish (Celts). Wait I see a pattern here. Uh oh. Are there anymore Celtic tribes or people of Celtic descent? If so run from the British.

Scotland was originally ruled by the Picts. The Scots came over from ireland and wiped them out. The Anglo-Saxons were formally invited, and integrated into the local genetic stock of England. The Scots arrived AFTER the Anglo-Saxons, idiot.

The Scots are originally from Ulster, and they wiped out the native inhabitants of Scotland (The Picts) in a series of territorial wars. There's your proof, where are the picts and who lives in modern Scotland?

The Scotti were an Irish tribe, yes. However, where's the proof they wiped them out?

The whole things, and the shamelessly incorrect biased.

Yeah I am happy that the books I am reading lie. Sheesh and I am supposed to take the AP exam in May. I hope my ignorance makes me pace(I think it is spelt wrong.) since the books I was reading was incorrect, although it was writ by a Brit. That rymes.

If you try to twist my words i shalt give thee a fair warning, I was being sarcastic.

British indust rev
Caused many Irishmen dred
Blame the British then

Ha a haiku that rymes. indust rev is a shortening of the Industrial Revolution in case you wanted to know.

Uhm... and which Americans are you speaking of? The Irish-Americans, the African-Americans, the German-Americans, or the British-Americans?

Presumably, the ones that had that little revolution and formed their own country, thus clearing the British of all responsibility for their further actions.

Scotland was originally ruled by the Picts. The Scots came over from ireland and wiped them out. The Anglo-Saxons were formally invited, and integrated into the local genetic stock of England. The Scots arrived AFTER the Anglo-Saxons, idiot.

Nien. The British arrived later, thats why they signed the first act of union uniting GB and Scottland. The Scotties arrived first.

I hardly believe you are a historian.

The Scotti were an Irish tribe, yes. However, where's the proof they wiped them out?

THAT THEY DON'T EXIST ANYMORE.

http://www.visitdunkeld.com/pictish-scotland.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~Halfmoon/

May we respect the original inhabitants of Caledonia. Long-live Pictdom.

Nien. The British arrived later, thats why they signed the first act of union uniting GB and Scottland. The Scotties arrived first.

I hardly believe you are a historian.

You should do. The Anglo-Saxons (English) arrived long before the Scotti did in Caledonia.

The British arrived later, thats why they signed the first act of union uniting GB and Scottland.

That has to be one of the most ignorant sentences I've read on here in quite a while.

Yeah I am happy that the books I am reading lie. Sheesh and I am supposed to take the AP exam in May. I hope my ignorance makes me pace(I think it is spelt wrong.) since the books I was reading was incorrect, although it was writ by a Brit. That rymes.

If you try to twist my words i shalt give thee a fair warning, I was being sarcastic.

British indust rev
Caused many Irishmen dred
Blame the British then

Ha a haiku that rymes. indust rev is a shortening of the Industrial Revolution in case you wanted to know.

AP exam? You do know the American Education System is unbelievably biased- even have it that the yanks won the war of 1812. Writ by a Brit? Rhymes, but grammatically incorrect.

The British can't be blamed for the activity of selfish local Irish authorities.

THAT THEY DON'T EXIST ANYMORE.

http://www.visitdunkeld.com/pictish-scotland.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~Halfmoon/

May we respect the original inhabitants of Caledonia. Long-live Pictdom.

I just looked up Picts and what did i find, no mentioning of the Scotties but of the Norse defeating them. Hmmmmm. Why should I trust your website since its a personal one. Try wikipedia

Presumably, the ones that had that little revolution and formed their own country, thus clearing the British of all responsibility for their further actions.

My intent was to implicate Anglo-Saxon Imperialism as a whole.

Neither of the links provide proof that they were wiped out at all. The nearest you get is some fighting (especially re: royal lines, MacAlpin's Treason).

I don't see your point. (http://www.albawest.com/picts.html#what)

You do know the American Education System is unbelievably biased

I live in America and I know that! BTW, I hate America and am moving out once of college age.

AP exam? You do know the American Education System is unbelievably biased- even have it that the yanks won the war of 1812. Writ by a Brit? Rhymes, but grammatically incorrect.

The British can't be blamed for the activity of selfish local Irish authorities.

Sure it is. The USians won the war of 1812 thats why US is not part of GB (Thank God, one good thing i actually find about this country). It was a haiku poem therefore it was grammatically correct.

Selfish Irish authorities ha ha ha ha ha.
Sure Palmer is Irish and therefore local Irish Authorities would get me in US for knowing he is not British.

From what you say i believe that the british system is very biased (Possibly worse then the Chinese Ethnocentrism).

Neither of the links provide proof that they were wiped out at all. The nearest you get is some fighting (especially re: royal lines, MacAlpin's Treason).

I don't see your point. (http://www.albawest.com/picts.html#what)

That the Scotti wiped out the Picts.

I live in America and I know that! BTW, I hate America and am moving out once of college age.

I hate america, my friends know it and thats why I must go to a good country. I think Germany or Ireland would accept me. Oh yeah did i mention i am (regrettably) british?

What good are those types of comparisons? By comparison to the Chinese Government, I've never told a lie.

Also, the British are implicit in the genocide carried out against the Native Americans, the instigation of numerious civil wars throughout Africa and the enslavement of India: and that barely touches on the surface.

Genocide against Native Americans? They may have started the process, but after the first civil war, otherwise known as the war of independance, the new owners of North America made sure that persecution, execution and indeed genocide was carried out well into the twentieth century. And after they got bored of "Killin' Injuns!" they started on the merry old persecution of Blacks well into the '60s. I do find it funny that North America is the only country that valourously fought for independance from.......itself.

Numerous civil wars in Africa? Which country invaded Iraq, caused an insurgency in which natives were shooting at other natives? Or tried to incite a revolution in Cuba? Or interfered with many, many voting processes in many countries in order to stop the "BIG RED COMMIES" from coming into power? Or tried to assasinate any national leaders that didn't blindly conform to it's 'interests'?

Enslavement is hardly the appropriate word. Compare the state of India then to India now.

From realizing that everymen is posting the tyep of posts he is is making me wonder what was the highest level of education he had. Everyone knows that the Irish didnt start anything, it was the Anglo-Saxons who kicked them off of GB get Scotland who was ruled by the Scotties (Celts) and try to kill the Irish (Celts). Wait I see a pattern here. Uh oh. Are there anymore Celtic tribes or people of Celtic descent? If so run from the British.

I am a Scot of Celtic descent, I am British, should I run from myself?

That the Scotti wiped out the Picts.
Tell you what, why don't you quote me something from a source which proves it.

I am a Scot of Celtic descent, I am British, should I run from myself?

Yes. First make a right at minnasota then a left at new guinea. If you dont know where you are going dont worry, you would see others running too.

I hate america, my friends know it and thats why I must go to a good country. I think Germany or Ireland would accept me. Oh yeah did i mention i am (regrettably) british?

I'm Irish and German. I always joke that I am destined to become a drunk.

That has to be one of the most ignorant sentences I've read on here in quite a while.

Yeah sure. Scottland signed treaties with england and norway to show the size of their country. No mention in wikipedia of england arriving first

The anti-British nature of the posts is pissing me off so I think I'd like to point out some of the facts about the British in Ireland and in its Empire that people seem willing to ignore to make a point.

Firstly, the potatoe famine occured in the 1840s. Ireland had signed an Act of Union with Britain in 1801, making the two coiuntries share one government. The British were not the occupying force, they were the legitimate authority.

Recent research has also found that the figure from the famine were exaccerbated by those voluntarily leaving Ireland t the same time.

In the Empire: before the British arrived India was a geographical expression. We left it as a united country that has stayed together for over fifty years.

When the British and the Dutch settled in Africa, they settled in areas not already occupied by the native population and turned them into the places where most of Africa's agricultural produce is cultivated now.

In Kenya the British ended the barbaric practice of female circumcission that occurred there.

There's no denying that the Empire was wnot all good but it is sheer ignorance to claim it was all bad.

Also, this idea that it was the Birtish that were responsible for the nonsensical idea of manifest destininy is a load of pish. They were AMERICANS not Britons. Just because they had British names doesn't make them Btitish. In the same way, having an Irish surname doesn't make you Irish, no matter what Irish-Americans may think.

The irish in the 1820s tried to repeal the act of union. The British didnt give the irish representation in parliament until many years later. no wonder why it didnt pass.

It isn't an entirely baseless accusation... the Brits did try to wipeout every other race of people that got in their way of progress.

This is what we call evolution. Strong kill the weak and in turn are replaced by the stronger. :headbang:

Firstly, the potatoe famine occured in the 1840s. Ireland had signed an Act of Union with Britain in 1801, making the two coiuntries share one government. The British were not the occupying force, they were the legitimate authority.

Ick, depends on how you define occupying force and legitimate authority I guess.

Recent research has also found that the figure from the famine were exaccerbated by those voluntarily leaving Ireland t the same time.

Voluntarily is possibly a bit strong. Most figures I've ever seen about the Great Famine make reference to those who died and left in the overall figures mentioned.

This is what we call evolution. Strong kill the weak and in turn are replaced by the stronger. :headbang:

The Irish are much stronger then the British. If you havent figured it out yet the First Duke of Wellington who defeated Napolean Bonaparte was Irish.

The anti-British nature of the posts is pissing me off so I think I'd like to point out some of the facts about the British in Ireland and in its Empire that people seem willing to ignore to make a point.

Firstly, the potatoe famine occured in the 1840s. Ireland had signed an Act of Union with Britain in 1801, making the two coiuntries share one government. The British were not the occupying force, they were the legitimate authority.

That only makes it worse. The British were ruling from afar and should have tried to help the Irish. Their laws didnt exactly fit into the Help category, they more fit in the Destroy category.

When the British and the Dutch settled in Africa, they settled in areas not already occupied by the native population and turned them into the places where most of Africa's agricultural produce is cultivated now.

Sure. Is that why they traded a piece of cloth for tribal land although the leaders of the tribe could not do that? or is that why the boers rebelled?

In Kenya the British ended the barbaric practice of female circumcission that occurred there.

So its them who decide whats barbaric. They ended a custom for no reason, thats like me randomly burning down jails for being barbaric.

There's no denying that the Empire was wnot all good but it is sheer ignorance to claim it was all bad.

Who claimed that? Twas I for I hath not?

The anti-British nature of the posts is pissing me off so I think I'd like to point out some of the facts about the British in Ireland and in its Empire that people seem willing to ignore to make a point.

Firstly, the potatoe famine occured in the 1840s. Ireland had signed an Act of Union with Britain in 1801, making the two coiuntries share one government. The British were not the occupying force, they were the legitimate authority.

Recent research has also found that the figure from the famine were exaccerbated by those voluntarily leaving Ireland t the same time.

In the Empire: before the British arrived India was a geographical expression. We left it as a united country that has stayed together for over fifty years.

When the British and the Dutch settled in Africa, they settled in areas not already occupied by the native population and turned them into the places where most of Africa's agricultural produce is cultivated now.

In Kenya the British ended the barbaric practice of female circumcission that occurred there.

There's no denying that the Empire was wnot all good but it is sheer ignorance to claim it was all bad.

Also, this idea that it was the Birtish that were responsible for the nonsensical idea of manifest destininy is a load of pish. They were AMERICANS not Britons. Just because they had British names doesn't make them Btitish. In the same way, having an Irish surname doesn't make you Irish, no matter what Irish-Americans may think.

Finally an intelligent poster in this rambling mess. Well done, sir, jolly well done.

The irish in the 1820s tried to repeal the act of union. The British didnt give the irish representation in parliament until many years later. no wonder why it didnt pass.

Fool. The Irish were granted MPs in the Houses of Parliament as soon as the Act of Union (1800) went through - that was the main point of the act. That Act abolished the Irish Parliament so how on earth did they try to repeal it (as you claim) when they had no Parliament in the 1820s and (according to you) they had no MPs?

The Irish are much stronger then the British.

Historical evidence seems to be against you on that point.

My intent was to implicate Anglo-Saxon Imperialism as a whole.

In that case, blame the Angles and Saxons, not the British.

The anti-British nature of the posts is pissing me off so I think I'd like to point out some of the facts about the British in Ireland and in its Empire that people seem willing to ignore to make a point.

Firstly, the potatoe famine occured in the 1840s. Ireland had signed an Act of Union with Britain in 1801, making the two coiuntries share one government. The British were not the occupying force, they were the legitimate authority.

i see...

that would be the Irish Parliament in Dublin, which was set up by the British...who invaded Ireland. The same Parliament that, under Poynings Law, was entirely subservient to Westminster? The same Parliament whose composition was Anglican landowners (less than 1/12th of the population were eligible to stand for election) who had interests in both Ireland and GB? The same Parliament that even the Scottish Presbyterian settlerss in Ulster tried to overthrow because they realised how unfair it was?

ah, yes....i can see now how the Act of Union was entirely representative of the wishes of the Irish people.

and as for the famine...it was hugely unfortunate, but at the end of the day nobody can be blamed for the potato blight, but the problem could have been eased had the government done more about it. In fact, the PM at the time brought a whole load of maize in to try and help, but had to keep it quiet so that the British politicians wouldnt object. Wasnt enough though. Also, the north east was pretty much unaffected by the famine because it was much more industrialised than the rest of the country.

edit: and to the guy who was saying about Irish landowners, have a look at this map (http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/maps/historical/mapcromw.gif) showing the land owned by Catholics after Cromwell

my ancestors were landowners just outside Dublin, the house is still there (but owned by Dublin council), but i can still see what they did wrong.

As much as I'd have liked the Irish to be wiped out (car-bombing cowardly bastards who want to overturn democratic referenda in Northern Ireland) it wasn't actually miscalculation. The Irish were dependant on potatoes, and a bad harvest coupled with infected potatoes (a fungus was actually making many of them inedible) was to blame. The Irish brought it upon themselves through their sheer dependency.
That's a flame bait which is against the rules of this Forum. The British brought the dependancy on us by taking the land

War Mongering? Pax Britannia was welcomed in almost every colony and territory. Grow a brain, the British were never involved in Genocide.Yeah welcomed they didn't have any wars against anyone. :rolleyes:

Most of those Landlords were actually Irish...so no, I don't know why the Irish continue to attempt to impress people living in Ulster into the Republic. Continue to bomb school buses. Continue to be rude and bolshy towards British people.What do you mean by Irish ever hear of the plantations mister Historian man! No one in the republic supports the IRA! Everone thinks there terrorist criminal bastards. So try going to a country before you say what they think!

Irish Landlords= greedy. Deal with it. The English were not directly responsible. There was no Irish catholic landlords and very few Irish land lords who didn't consider themselves british.

Enslavement? That's anti-imperialistic jargon. India wanted us to come back, and many Indians still do. Really.
Hmm I wonder if he actually knows any Indians?

That's a flame bait which is against the rules of this Forum. The British brought the dependancy on us by taking the land



Yeah welcomed they didn't have any wars against anyone. :rolleyes:

What do you mean by Irish ever hear of the plantations mister Historian man! No one in the republic supports the IRA! Everone thinks there terrorist criminal bastards. So try going to a country before you say what they think!

There was no Irish catholic landlords and very few Irish land lords who didn't consider themselves british.

Hmm I wonder if he actually knows any Indians?



Edit: More to come

Well, I know many Indians. I actually worked for a Charity in India for a number of years, teaching and lecturing for free but that's besides the point. There were a number of Irish Catholic Landlords, and many of the Irish Protestant Landlords considered themselves Irish. Your argument is actually laying the blame on protestant Irish rather than the British. The IRA receives considerable financial support from the Americas and from the Republic of Ireland. The Irish government has made no real attempt to bring a halt to the activities of the IRA. Yep, welcome they didn't have to wage wars against anyone because the British Military was protecting them. Britain cultivated trade and industry in its colonies, which is why many of them were able to survive autonomously (at least in the industrial and economic senses) after independence.

It seems to me you have a very biased opinion, and don't really know what you're talking about. No one in the Republic supports the IRA? So the irish people in the IRA aren't from the Republican...Sinn Feinn's members aren't either...ahem. :rolleyes:

The Scots are originally from Ulster, and they wiped out the native inhabitants of Scotland (The Picts) in a series of territorial wars. There's your proof, where are the picts and who lives in modern Scotland?
Native American genocide was almost entirely at the hand of the Americans, well into the 1950s. So don't even begin to suggest that Bullshit.Oh but the Americans came largely from Britain so it was them who killed th native americans, just using your logic



There were a number of Irish Catholic Landlords, and many of the Irish Protestant Landlords considered themselves Irish. Your argument is actually laying the blame on protestant Irish rather than the British.
There wheren't any Irish catholic landlords a small few of the protestant irish landlords considered themselves Irish not many a few

The IRA receives considerable financial support from the Americas and from the Republic of Ireland. The Irish government has made no real attempt to bring a halt to the activities of the IRA.
True they really shouldn't believe IRA propaganda. The government are in constant negotiations with Sinn Féin who the leader of them Gerry Adams have recently asked the IRA to disband. Doing nothing eh..

Yep, welcome they didn't have to wage wars against anyone because the British Military was protecting them. Britain cultivated trade and industry in its colonies, which is why many of them were able to survive autonomously (at least in the industrial and economic senses) after independence.Name the ones like that: canada, australia any others?

It seems to me you have a very biased opinion, and don't really know what you're talking about. No one in the Republic supports the IRA? So the irish people in the IRA aren't from the Republican...Sinn Feinn's members aren't either...ahem. :rolleyes: I exagerated so sew me. The average peson thinks what I said.

So do you think we have the right to treat Scots badly? After all, they were invaders and the British were here first. :)

No. Treating people badly cannot be excused by referring to their history.

Irish Landlords= greedy. Deal with it. The English were not directly responsible.

"Irish landlords" = Englishmen granted stolen Irish lands by an English monarch