NationStates Jolt Archive


The REAL reason the French opposed Iraq liberation

B0zzy
17-04-2005, 06:59
They make noise about WMD in an apparent attemt to drown out the discoveries being made in Iraq of French malfeasance. (Sorry the quote is so long, but this is all good. I found it buried in a much larger website about half way down. This was the only way i could get it here.)



THE WASHINGTON TIMES, September 19, 2004 (First of three excerpts)

New intelligence revealing how long France continued to supply and arm Saddam Hussein’s regime infuriated U.S. officials as the nation prepared for military action against Iraq. The intelligence reports showing French assistance to Saddam ongoing in the late winter of 2002 helped explain why France refused to deal harshly with Iraq and blocked U.S. moves at the United Nations.

“No wonder the French are opposing us;’ one U.S. intelligence official remarked after illegal sales to Iraq of military and dual-use parts, originating in France, were discovered early last year before the war began. That official was careful to stipulate that intelligence did not indicate whether the French government had sanctioned or knew about the parts transfers. The French company at the beginning of the pipeline remained unidentified in the reports.

France’s government tightly controls its aerospace and defense firms, however, so it would be difficult to believe that the illegal transfers of equipment parts took place without the knowledge of at least some government officials.

Iraq’s Mirage F-1 fighter jets were made by France’s Dassault Aviation. Its Gazelle attack helicopters were made by Aerospatiale, which became part of a consortium of European defense companies. “It is well-known that the Iraqis use front companies to try to obtain a number of prohibited items,” a senior Bush administration official said before the war, refusing to discuss Iraq’s purchase of French warplane and helicopter parts.

The State Department confirmed intelligence indicating the French had given support to Iraq’s military. “UN sanctions prohibit the transfer to lraq of arms and materiel of all types, including military aircraft and spare parts,” State Department spokeswoman Jo-Anne Prokopowicz said. “We take illicit transfers to Iraq very seriously and work closely with our allies to prevent Iraq from acquiring sensitive equipment”

Sen. Ted Stevens, Alaska Republican and chairman of the Senate Appropriations Committee, declared that France’s selling of military equipment to Iraq was “international treason” as well as a violation of a U.N. resolution. ‘As a former war pilot, this disturbs me greatly that the French would allow in any way parts for the Mirage to be exported so the Iraqis could continue to use those planes:’ Stevens said.

“The French, unfortunately, are becoming less trustworthy than the Russians;’ said Rep. Curt Weldon, Pennsylvania Republican and vice chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. “It is outrageous they would allow technology to support the jets of Saddam Hussein to be transferred?’

The U.S. military was about to go to war with Iraq, and thanks to the French, the Iraqi air force had become more dangerous. French aid to Iraq goes back decades and includes transfers of advanced conventional arms and components for weapons of mass destruction.

The central figure in these weapons ties is French President Jacques Chirac. His relationship with Saddam dates to 1975, when, as prime minister, the French politician rolled out the red carpet when the Iraqi strongman visited Paris. “I welcome you as my personal friend,” Chirac told Saddam, then vice president of Iraq.The French put Saddam up at the Hotel Marigny, an annex to the presidential palace, and gave him the trappings of a head of state.

The French wanted Iraqi oil, and by establishing this friendship, Chirac would help France replace the Soviet Union as Iraq’s leading supplier of weapons and military goods. In fact, Chirac helped sell Saddam the two nuclear reactors that started Baghdad on the path to nuclear weapons capability.
France’s corrupt dealings with Saddam flourished throughout the 1990s, despite the strict arms embargo against Iraq imposed by the United Nations after the Persian Gulf war. By 2000, France had become Iraq’s largest supplier of military and dual- use equipment, according to a senior member of Congress who declined to be identified. Saddam developed networks for illegal supplies to get around the U.N. arms embargo and achieve a military buildup in the years before US. forces launched a second assault oil Iraq.

One spare-parts pipeline flowed from a French company to Al Tamoor trading Co. in the United Arab Emirates. Tamoor then sent the parts by truck through Turkey, and into Iraq. The Iraqis obtained spare parts for their French-made Mirage F-l jets and Gazelle attack helicopters through this pipeline.
US. intelligence would not discover the pipeline until the eve of war last year; sensitive intelligence indicated that parts had been smuggled to Iraq as recently as that January.

“A thriving gray-arms market and porous borders have allowed Baghdad to acquire smaller arms and components for larger arms, such as spare parts for aircraft, air-defense systems and armored vehicles,” the CIA said in a report to Congress made public that month. U.S. intelligence agencies later came under fire over questions about prewar estimates of Iraq’s stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction. But intelligence on Iraq’s hidden procurement networks was confirmed.

An initial accounting by the Pentagon in the months after the fall of Baghdad revealed that Saddam covertly acquired between 650,000 and 1 million tons of conventional weapons from foreign sources. The main suppliers were Russia, China and France. By contrast, the US. arsenal is between 1.6 million and 1.8 million tons.

As of last year Iraq owed France an estimated $4 billion for arms and infrastructure projects, according to French government estimates. US. officials thought this massive debt was one reason France opposed a military operation to oust Saddam. The fact that illegal deals continued even as war loomed indicated France viewed Saddam’s regime as a future source of income.

Just days before US. and coalition forces launched their military campaign against Iraq, more evidence of French treachery emerged. In mid-March 2003, US. intelligence and defense officials confirmed that exporters in France had conspired with China to provide Iraq with fuel for long-range missiles. The sanctions-busting operation occurred in August 2002, the US. National Security Agency discovered through electronic intercepts.

The chemical transferred to Iraq was a transparent liquid rubber called hydroxy terminated polybutadiene, or HTPB, according to intelligence reports. US. intelligence traced the sale to China’s Qilu Chemicals, “the largest manufacturer of HTPB in China” one official says.

Representatives of the French and Chinese governments went on the attack when The Washington Times asked about the chemical sale. Chinese Embassy spokesman Xie Feng did not address the specifics, but said “irresponsible accusations” about China’s exports had been made in the past.
“These accusations are devoid of all foundation’ French Foreign Ministry spokesman Francois Rivasseau declared. “In line with the rules currently in force, France has neither delivered, nor authorized, the delivery of such materials, either directly or indirectly”

By that point, many in the US. government were fed up with French denials. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz called in the French ambassador to the United States, Jean-David Levitte to complain about France’s covert and overt support for Saddam’s regime.

“‘Twelve years of waiting was too costly in terms of the growing threat from Baghdad;’ Wolfowitz told the ambassador, according to a U.S. official who was present. The war in Iraq which began March 19, 2003, provided disturbing evidence that France’s treacherous dealings come at a steep cost to the United States.

On April 8 came the downing of Air Force Maj. Jim Ewald’s A-10 Thunderbolt fighter over Baghdad and the discovery that it was a French-made Roland missile that brought down the American pilot and destroyed a $13 million aircraft. Ewald, one of the first US. pilots shot down in the war was rescued by members of the Army’s 54th Engineer Battalion who saw him parachute to earth not far from the wreckage.

Army intelligence concluded that the French had sold the missile to the Iraqis within the past year, despite French denials. A week after Ewald’s A-10 was downed, an Army team searching Iraqi weapons depots at the Baghdad airport discovered caches of French-made missiles. One anti-aircraft missile, among a cache of 51 Roland-2s from a French-German manufacturing partnership, bore a label indicating that the batch was produced just months earlier.

In May, Army intelligence found a stack of blank French passports in an Iraqi ministry confirming what U& intelligence already had determined: The French had helped Iraqi war criminals escape from coalition forces — and therefore justice.

Then, there were French-made trucks and radios and the deadly grenade launchers, known as RPGs, with French-made night sights. Saddam loyalists used them to kill American soldiers long after the toppling of the dictator’s regime.

The intelligence team sent to find Iraqi weapons also discovered documents outlining covert Iraqi weapons procurement leading up to the war. The CIA, however, refused to make public the documents on assistance provided by France or by other so-called allies of the United States. The clandestine arms-procurement network, disclosed late last year by the Los Angeles Times, put a Syrian trading company in a pivotal role. Documents showed the company SES International Corp. was the conduit for millions of dollars worth of weapons purchased internationally, including from France.

Al Bashair trading Co. in Baghdad was the major front used by Saddam to buy arms abroad. A Defense Department-sponsored report produced in February identified France as one of the top three suppliers of Iraq’s conventional arms, after Russia and China. The report revealed that France supplied 12 types of armaments and a total of 115,005 pieces. A major reason Iraqi militants posed a threat to U.S. forces for so many months was that they had access to weapons that Saddam stockpiled in violation of U.N. resolutions.

One of the most frightening examples of how the militants put French weapons to use against the Americans came Oct.26, 2003. That morning, at about 6 o’clock, they bombarded the Rashid Hotel in Baghdad with French missiles. The French rockets nearly killed Wolfowitz, whom Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsld has called “the brain” of the Pentagon.

The deputy defense secretary had just gotten dressed in his room that Sunday morning when a car stopped several hundred yards from the hotel. It dropped off what appeared to be one of the blue electrical generators that was common in the power-starved Iraqi capital. The driver stayed just long enough to open a panel on the end of the metal box that was pointing upward toward the hotel. The car sped off. Minutes later, a pod of 40 artillery rockets set off by remote control began firing at the hotel, their trails leaving sparks as they flew. The rockets hit one floor below where Wollbwitz and about a dozen aides and reporters were stayng.

One rocket slammed into the room of Army Lt. Col. Charles H. Buehring, a public-affairs officer. The explosion hit Buehring, 40, in the head. A reporter discovered him and tried to help, but the Fayetteville, N.C., resident died a short time later.

In all, between eight and 10 missiles hit the hotel. The casualties might have been higher, and included Wolfowitz, if the improvised rocket launcher had fired all the missiles. Because of a malfunction, 11 failed to go off. Half the missiles fired at Wolfowitz’s hotel were French-made Matra SNEB 68-millimeter rockets.
Evil Arch Conservative
17-04-2005, 07:39
“No wonder the French are opposing us;’ one U.S. intelligence official remarked after illegal sales to Iraq of military and dual-use parts, originating in France, were discovered early last year before the war began. That official was careful to stipulate that intelligence did not indicate whether the French government had sanctioned or knew about the parts transfers. The French company at the beginning of the pipeline remained unidentified in the reports.

Huh, so much for not indicating whether the French government knew about the transfers. If the French opposed government us, as he said, then they had reason to do so. If that comment was a reaction to the illegal sales that were discovered before the war began, and it was, then that means that he believes the French government opposed the war because of what the findings revealed.

In May, Army intelligence found a stack of blank French passports in an Iraqi ministry confirming what U& intelligence already had determined: The French had helped Iraqi war criminals escape from coalition forces — and therefore justice.

Even if the French government disavows any responsibility for what French companies did, they still have to follow up on this. I guess the article is saying that these are actual passports that the government had printed. I don't know how easy it'd be for someone to get their hands on these without a government employee knowing.

The article makes some huge claims. They aren't exactly suprising claims, but they're still huge. I think we were all expecting something like this to come out eventually. As the article implied, there's no actual proven aiding and/or abetting (or at least ignoring) on the part of the French government toward these companies. I'm a little skepticle of how extensive the conspiracy really is. Just a little, though. I'll only be slightly astonished if it turns out French heads of state were presenting RPGs in a pretty giftwrapped package to Hussein himself.
Nekone
17-04-2005, 07:48
Huh, so much for not indicating whether the French government knew about the transfers. If the French opposed government us, as he said, then they had reason to do so. If that comment was a reaction to the illegal sales that were discovered before the war began, and it was, then that means that he believes the French government opposed the war because of what the findings revealed.



Even if the French government disavows any responsibility for what French companies did, they still have to follow up on this. I guess the article is saying that these are actual passports that the government had printed. I don't know how easy it'd be for someone to get their hands on these without a government employee knowing.

The article makes some huge claims. They aren't exactly suprising claims, but they're still huge. I think we were all expecting something like this to come out eventually. As the article implied, there's no actual proven aiding and/or abetting (or at least ignoring) on the part of the French government toward these companies. I'm a little skepticle of how extensive the conspiracy really is. Just a little, though. I'll only be slightly astonished if it turns out French heads of state were presenting RPGs in a pretty giftwrapped package to Hussein himself.which is why I would like to wait untill the investigation is done before jumping to conclusions...
BLARGistania
17-04-2005, 07:48
hey! A country looking out for its own economic interests. What a neat idea.
Bullets and lies
17-04-2005, 08:07
So did the millions of people worldwide who protesed the war all work for french aerospace firms? And what of all the money paid to buy off the coalition of the willing and convince their govenments to send troops against the will of their people? Its shitty about all the stuff that sadam got inspite of the sanctions. I bet things would have been different if the U.S. could have vetoed those oil for food contracts that the U.N. red-flagged. Oh fuck we could have. Well, atleast we go Osama, and found all those WMD, and were welcomed as liberators.
Evil Arch Conservative
17-04-2005, 08:12
hey! A country looking out for its own economic interests. What a neat idea.

Fair enough, but it brings in to question the ties that the US has to France and the validity of UN decisions. It's not the only case questioning either, but it does hit home. As opposed to UN workers raping women in central Africa. I'm too busy anticipating baseball to worry about that. Nah, that story is getting a lot of coverage. Maybe the inaction in not only Darfur but other genocides since the formation of the UN would be better targets for cynicism.

So did the millions of people worldwide who protesed the war all work for french aerospace firms? And what of all the money paid to buy off the coalition of the willing and convince their govenments to send troops against the will of their people? Its shitty about all the stuff that sadam got inspite of the sanctions. I bet things would have been different if the U.S. could have vetoed those oil for food contracts that the U.N. red-flagged. Oh fuck we could have. Well, atleast we go Osama, and found all those WMD, and were welcomed as liberators.

Let's be fair. The article doesn't invalidate other French concerns. It simply says that this could have been one motive. If not for the government, then for companies (who have lobbyists).
The Druidic Clans
17-04-2005, 08:13
hey! A country looking out for its own economic interests. What a neat idea.

Hey now, that's dangeorus thinking!
B0zzy
17-04-2005, 19:39
which is why I would like to wait untill the investigation is done before jumping to conclusions...
Huh? You'd rather delegate your opinion to other people rather than consider the information avaliable and make a decision based on it? You are allowed to change it as more information becomes avaliable you know. Meanwhile, this is pretty damning stuff.
Dobbs Town
17-04-2005, 19:46
Huh? You'd rather delegate your opinion to other people rather than consider the information avaliable and make a decision based on it? You are allowed to change it as more information becomes avaliable you know. Meanwhile, this is pretty damning stuff.

I believe the poster Nekone's stated position is clear.

I boil down your statement to read, "Huh? You'd rather not jump to conclusions? Well I would! I do it all the time! There's ample time for 'wiggle room' later. Meanwhile, this should provide me with ample fodder for slagging France."
Haken Rider
17-04-2005, 19:49
...

This has been in the papers months and months ago.
Fass
17-04-2005, 20:06
Iraq was not about liberation.

That is all.
B0zzy
17-04-2005, 20:07
...

This has been in the papers months and months ago.

This article was dated 9/04 and was the first of three. Interesting how it has never really been discussed much. It is still recent ehough to be of interest. Hopefully others here can contribute more information for something as seasoned as this is.
B0zzy
17-04-2005, 20:19
I believe the poster Nekone's stated position is clear.

I boil down your statement to read, "Huh? You'd rather not jump to conclusions? Well I would! I do it all the time! There's ample time for 'wiggle room' later. Meanwhile, this should provide me with ample fodder for slagging France."
Or, you could say that because Michael Moore hasn't yet told you what to think about it you have no opinion yet. Afterall, his work is VERY complete and thorough.

There are plenty of folks who form opinions as they receive information. Micheal Moore, Ann Coulter, Al Franken and Rush Limbaugh would not have made millions without them. The point is not that this poster is waiting for an investigation, they are waiting for someone to tell them what to think. The information is there. The investigation discussed is really incomcenquential to the heart of this discussion. Which is about the information and what it could indicate, that being - Iraq was receiving munitions and equipment against UN rules from Russia, China and France as recent as one month before the start of hostilities. That is an undisputable fact. Opinion based on fact is acceptable.

My personal opinon has not even been stated, yet I am portrayed by many here as a "France-Basher" for daring to call to question France. Most of these same people are quick to cry foul if they are accused of being anti-American for calling to question the US. They embrace hypocracy.
Chellis
17-04-2005, 20:22
I made a big post on this yesterday, but my comp froze, so I will summarize.

France was a big arms dealer to Iraq before the first gulf war. It sold many things, including Gazelle's, F-1's, Air to air missiles, and many other things to Iraq. Every item stated in the article had been sold, at least some of them, before the gulf war.

The rest of the items could be discreet sales from France to Iraq, but that makes no sense. For the small amount of cash that the could obtain from sneaking parts undetected(Which wouldnt be many), versus the risk of being found to be violating UN law. Why would they take such big risks?

More likely, these old items, which have been exported to dozens of nations, probably made it to Iraq via a black arms market. I have heard of milan's making it to Iraq through south africa, for example. Old French equipment, which is spread throughout the world, is appearing in Iraq(much of it is probably left from before 1991). Be logical. This is grasping at straws, by French haters desperate to find things to condemn France with.
Iwo-Jima
17-04-2005, 20:31
Wow, what a surprising thing!

So the US invaded Iraq not to spread democracy but to pursue their own interests and France opposed the same invasion not to defend the right of self-determnination of Iraqis people but to defend their own interests.

Thank you B0zzy for this major breakthrough in international politics!!!

PS: it is widely known that France had privileged links with Iraq prior to the 2003 invasion and that France had most of the major oil contracts in the country. Thats of the motives why France opposed the war.
Borostovia
17-04-2005, 20:41
You mean a western country has sold waeponry to a dictatorship, becuase thats never happened before. The U.S does, the U.K does, everyone does it.
Justice Cardozo
17-04-2005, 20:50
This isn't news. A year or more ago I remember something about French gov't officials receiving large cash bribes from the Iraqi gov't. I think a few are now serving prison terms, even. Besides, we've known the French were being bougt off with oil money for YEARS. In a grad school class I took in 1997 the prof (who was a Democrat and worked for the Clinton campaign in 1996) flat out told us French support for Iraq was "purchased" with oil contracts. Anyone surprised by this hasn't been paying attention for the last decade.
Dontgonearthere
17-04-2005, 21:00
Iraq was not about liberation.

That is all.
But its all right because we were acting in our own economic self-interest.
*points to BLARG's post*
B0zzy
17-04-2005, 21:03
Chellis, these portions of the article pretty much address and negate your points. As to the motive? It was two-fold - The primary one was to develop a relationship in order to have access to the oil, the other was to sabotage the US effort to remove Saddam. Lining their pockets with ill-gotten arms sales was only a small fringe benefit.

"The French wanted Iraqi oil, and by establishing this friendship, Chirac would help France replace the Soviet Union as Iraq’s leading supplier of weapons and military goods. In fact, Chirac helped sell Saddam the two nuclear reactors that started Baghdad on the path to nuclear weapons capability."

"France’s government tightly controls its aerospace and defense firms
The State Department confirmed intelligence indicating the French had given support to Iraq’s military"

"By 2000, France had become Iraq’s largest supplier of military and dual- use equipment, according to a senior member of Congress who declined to be identified. Saddam developed networks for illegal supplies to get around the U.N. arms embargo and achieve a military buildup in the years before US. forces launched a second assault on Iraq."

"An initial accounting by the Pentagon in the months after the fall of Baghdad revealed that Saddam covertly acquired between 650,000 and 1 million tons of conventional weapons from foreign sources. The main suppliers were Russia, China and France. By contrast, the US. arsenal is between 1.6 million and 1.8 million tons. "

"In mid-March 2003, US. intelligence and defense officials confirmed that exporters in France had conspired with China to provide Iraq with fuel for long-range missiles. The sanctions-busting operation occurred in August 2002, the US. National Security Agency discovered through electronic intercepts."

"Army intelligence concluded that the French had sold the missile to the Iraqis within the past year, despite French denials. A week after Ewald’s A-10 was downed, an Army team searching Iraqi weapons depots at the Baghdad airport discovered caches of French-made missiles. One anti-aircraft missile, among a cache of 51 Roland-2s from a French-German manufacturing partnership, bore a label indicating that the batch was produced just months earlier."
Iwo-Jima
17-04-2005, 21:06
Chellis, these portions of the article pretty much address and negate your points. As to the motive? It was two-fold - The primary one was to develop a relationship in order to have access to the oil, the other was to sabotage the US effort to remove Saddam. Lining their pockets with ill-gotten arms sales was only a small fringe benefit.

"The French wanted Iraqi oil, and by establishing this friendship, Chirac would help France replace the Soviet Union as Iraq’s leading supplier of weapons and military goods. In fact, Chirac helped sell Saddam the two nuclear reactors that started Baghdad on the path to nuclear weapons capability."

"France’s government tightly controls its aerospace and defense firms
The State Department confirmed intelligence indicating the French had given support to Iraq’s military"

"By 2000, France had become Iraq’s largest supplier of military and dual- use equipment, according to a senior member of Congress who declined to be identified. Saddam developed networks for illegal supplies to get around the U.N. arms embargo and achieve a military buildup in the years before US. forces launched a second assault on Iraq."

"An initial accounting by the Pentagon in the months after the fall of Baghdad revealed that Saddam covertly acquired between 650,000 and 1 million tons of conventional weapons from foreign sources. The main suppliers were Russia, China and France. By contrast, the US. arsenal is between 1.6 million and 1.8 million tons. "

"In mid-March 2003, US. intelligence and defense officials confirmed that exporters in France had conspired with China to provide Iraq with fuel for long-range missiles. The sanctions-busting operation occurred in August 2002, the US. National Security Agency discovered through electronic intercepts."

"Army intelligence concluded that the French had sold the missile to the Iraqis within the past year, despite French denials. A week after Ewald’s A-10 was downed, an Army team searching Iraqi weapons depots at the Baghdad airport discovered caches of French-made missiles. One anti-aircraft missile, among a cache of 51 Roland-2s from a French-German manufacturing partnership, bore a label indicating that the batch was produced just months earlier."

What are you tring to prove exactly? That France is as sleazy as the US?
Chellis
17-04-2005, 21:13
Chellis, these portions of the article pretty much address and negate your points. As to the motive? It was two-fold - The primary one was to develop a relationship in order to have access to the oil, the other was to sabotage the US effort to remove Saddam. Lining their pockets with ill-gotten arms sales was only a small fringe benefit.

"The French wanted Iraqi oil, and by establishing this friendship, Chirac would help France replace the Soviet Union as Iraq’s leading supplier of weapons and military goods. In fact, Chirac helped sell Saddam the two nuclear reactors that started Baghdad on the path to nuclear weapons capability."

"France’s government tightly controls its aerospace and defense firms
The State Department confirmed intelligence indicating the French had given support to Iraq’s military"

"By 2000, France had become Iraq’s largest supplier of military and dual- use equipment, according to a senior member of Congress who declined to be identified. Saddam developed networks for illegal supplies to get around the U.N. arms embargo and achieve a military buildup in the years before US. forces launched a second assault on Iraq."

"An initial accounting by the Pentagon in the months after the fall of Baghdad revealed that Saddam covertly acquired between 650,000 and 1 million tons of conventional weapons from foreign sources. The main suppliers were Russia, China and France. By contrast, the US. arsenal is between 1.6 million and 1.8 million tons. "

"In mid-March 2003, US. intelligence and defense officials confirmed that exporters in France had conspired with China to provide Iraq with fuel for long-range missiles. The sanctions-busting operation occurred in August 2002, the US. National Security Agency discovered through electronic intercepts."

"Army intelligence concluded that the French had sold the missile to the Iraqis within the past year, despite French denials. A week after Ewald’s A-10 was downed, an Army team searching Iraqi weapons depots at the Baghdad airport discovered caches of French-made missiles. One anti-aircraft missile, among a cache of 51 Roland-2s from a French-German manufacturing partnership, bore a label indicating that the batch was produced just months earlier."


The proof from this ranges to unidentified US congressmen, to american intelligence(Who thought there were WMD in Iraq... We saw how that one came up). You are sounding more and more like a conspiracy theorist, thinking that France is jumping at every oppertunity to get americans killed, etc. Its just idiotic.
The Downmarching Void
17-04-2005, 21:14
Whats that you say? The French disobeying an international arms embargo?

Like thats a surprise. The French and The Russians are extremely adept at backroom deals, greymarket weapon sales and even outright blatant disregard for international embargos.

This is nothing new, and I can remember having discussions about Russia and Frances reluctance to occupy Iraq during the lead up to the US declaration of war.

We came to the conclusion back then that the real reason Russia and France opposed all UN resolutions was that Iraq had direct deopsit accounts with both them, buying weapons, vehicles, medical supplies, chemicals, etc.

The other European nations are all aware of the dirty dealings of the Russians and the French. They don't dare make their knowledge publiuc though, because in European politics, EVERYONE has dirty laundry they don't want being aired in public.
Dontgonearthere
17-04-2005, 21:14
What are you tring to prove exactly? That France is as sleazy as the US?
"Ah, my dear Vimes, you do not realize that there are no good people or bad people. There are just bad people. The entire world is a sea of evil, true, it is shallower in some places, but it is still there.
We put together little rafts of rules and attempt to ride out the worst of the storms, but in the end they simply arent good enough."
I believe that is an approximation of a quote by Lord Vetinari, from Going Postal, possibly. One of the books with Vimes in it anyway.
Very good series, the Prattchet books. I would suggest all of them.
Nadkor
17-04-2005, 21:43
wow, thats amazing. France was supplying Iraq with arms....in complete contrast, obviously, to the US...who supplied Iraq with arms
Club House
17-04-2005, 21:54
you try to say that someone has accused you of being a france-basher on no basis. yet in the very same post you accuse someone of forming there opinion based on what michael moore tells them to think on no basis. then you go on to say that someone else has embraced hypocricy. GOOD JOB!
Straughn
18-04-2005, 01:46
It's good to post "legitimate" statements from Ted "the Hulk" Stevens, since just before movement (and subversive at that) of the ANWR bill he publicly declared himself prone to "clinical depression" even though later on in the SAME PUBLIC BRIEFING he admitted that he hadn't actually been CLINICALLY DiAGNOSED with depression. Just "frustrated".
Thought i'd say that ... he's got a stable head on his shoulders about who does what for what reason.
I'll post his comments later. Don't have time now.
;)
Cheerio
Zarbia
18-04-2005, 01:54
Wow, great, the US fucks people over for profit all the time too.