NationStates Jolt Archive

Recently I visited the Smithsonian institute (ironically, funded and set up by a British Scientist) that espounged curious views upon the war of 1812. Basically, it taught the visitors that America won the war of 1812.

Almost any historian will tell you this is utter bunk, as Canada was defended by the British Military and even expanded into Northern US territory. The British military proceeded to march upon Washington D.C and burned down the Whitehouse. America suffered greater losses across the board, and had it not been for pressure from Continental European nations the UK would have given them even more of a trouncing. This is not a biased point of view, if you look at the facts, everything I have said is supported.

So how can America possibly claim to have won this war?

Actually no one won that war,

Canada was not Canada at this point for starters. It was still a colony and not even Named Canada.

No land exchanged hands, in other words the bounderies stayed the same as they did before the war. If you have other maps due share them please.

You view point is biased to claim what you have written as otherwise is well just utter BS. Try to look up things and not take what you learn in school, especially schools funded by Governments.

Actually no one won that war,

Canada was not Canada at this point for starters. It was still a colony and not even Named Canada.

No land exchanged hands, in other words the bounderies stayed the same as they did before the war. If you have other maps due share them please.

You view point is biased to claim what you have written as otherwise is well just utter BS. Try to look up things and not take what you learn in school, especially schools funded by Governments.

I wasn't taught this at school...it was independent research at University. Don't even begin to patrionise me. Plus, I was educated at a Private School so your comment on 'government funded education' is an immaterial one. The point is, that 'Canada' actually increased in size. There were territorial gains in the Northern Most US and The British army penetrated deep into the USA. To me that's an American loss.

Show me the facts then, everything I have read in the last 20 years have stated no land gains were made. Maps that were drawn before the war are the same as after the war.

Show the proof. I still say you are full of shit and you should get your money back if you had a private education.

http://www.deadtroll.com/index2.html?/1812/~content

Just wait for the opeing ad to fade into the song, it will answer all questions :)

Look at it this way, in timeline format. Excuse my horrid spelling.

- US looks at Manatoba/Saskatchewan/Alberta area and says "We want that."
- US attempts to invade said area through Ontario, aka. Upper Canada (at the time)
- British Army jumps in and defends with the help of the natives.
- Force comprisng of British, Canadian Militia (Upper and Lower Canada), Acadian Volunteers, and Native warriors advance into the US.
- US Forces scramble to defend themselves, failing in many instances, but winning some key battles.
- British forces withdraw due to international pressure (France, see, they love you), forcing other forces to withdraw.
- US retakes land up until origonal border, makes one last attempt at invasion.
- Invasion crushed.

There you go.
The US won the war if you ignore the fact that they didn't gain anything.
And Canada/Britian won the war if you ignore the fact that they retreated back to the origonal border.

Oh, and to you who said Canada didn't even exist as a colony, go look up Upper and Lower Canada.

Well, from what I am reasonably sure I learned somewhere, the US fared surprising well at sea (read: wasn't blown away completely in the first few battles, despite being against the British war machine), and that alone could be construed as victory. If you define winning as more than just land-grabs, then the US won just by standing against Britain for so long a second time. It gave them credibility, and strengthened the nation.

However, if you just look at military victories and not global politics, Canada/Britain won. They could have retaken America had they wished to; instead, they sacked everything worth burning, including the White House, then left. Militarily, they dominated.

Clearly you are taking a very selective view of the history. US adventures in Canada ultimately ended in failure, but other than the sack of Washington (purely a slash-and-burn manuever that ultimately accomplished nothing militarily), British and Canadian adventures in the US came to the same result... and generally much sooner.

In the balance of the sea engagements, the US came out clearly ahead.

And while all that was going on, the US crushed the empire's ally, the Creeks.

Next time you go off to learn something independently, get a better teacher.

The US started the war. Their expansion was stopped. I'd say they failed their objective. A defeat, yet only a status quo peace. The end.

And are we forgetting the British boarding US Naval ships and stealing American sailors for their own war? Or is that just some overlooked fact because CLEARLY (yeah, sure) the U.S. was just as war-mongering then as they are now.

And consider Canadian territories as completely British owned and operated, not as innocent little Canada. Then perhaps you wont look at them as so poor and American-oppressed anymore.


Damn I hate getting into this debate.

British tried to destroy U.S., a couple victories, but failed their objective of taking back the colonies.
The Americans tried to gain territory but failed in said objective.
The British and the Americans agreed to stop the war.

Hands shook.
No winner.
The End.

Bloody hell, shut up now.

i won the war of 1812. it allowed me to secretly seize control of most us state governments, a power i have only enhanced over the years. it also allowed my to complete my super magority in the british parlament. last and most importantly it allowed me to militarily and politically destroy the only people who could have thwarted my plans for world domination... the Creek Nation, they have never had the strength or will to use their greater magics since.

now wanna guess who actually won world war two?

Clearly you are taking a very selective view of the history. US adventures in Canada ultimately ended in failure, but other than the sack of Washington (purely a slash-and-burn manuever that ultimately accomplished nothing militarily), British and Canadian adventures in the US came to the same result... and generally much sooner.

In the balance of the sea engagements, the US came out clearly ahead.

And while all that was going on, the US crushed the empire's ally, the Creeks.

Next time you go off to learn something independently, get a better teacher.

If you were referring to me, it was less of a selective view and more of not paying attention to most of it :headbang:

Sorry, I guess I was off by quite a lot. That song I linked to in the beggining is still the best analysis ever, though :D

Here is a decent site on the war of 1812
War of 1812 (http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/amh/amh-06.htm)

I'm from Canada, living in the Niagara area, and growing up I was always taught that Britain/Canada had won the war. I once got into a debate with another American who was taught that the American's had one. Funny thing is, once you look at the persepective of both sides you can see where each is coming from.

America stopped the Britts from boarding their ships and the Britts/Canadians stopped America's conquest into the great White North.

The U.S. military might have been able to win the war very easily if they had properly trained their militiary from the beginning. The Britts were occupied with Nepolean so they really didn't care much about Canada. Luckily for us Canadians the Yanks got into some friendly fire incidents and made some bad decisions. Their overwelhming strength in arms at the beginning of the war didn't pan out.


As for land grab and not, I read once and I'm not sure if this is a result of the war of 1812 or not, but I read the Britts actually had a fort on the othe side of Lake Ontario or Lake Michigan(forget which one) and when the British personelle in chagre of drawing the maps, made his little map he fudged the boundry line a little. However I can't find any proof of this right now so take it as you will.

i won the war of 1812. it allowed me to secretly seize control of most us state governments, a power i have only enhanced over the years. it also allowed my to complete my super magority in the british parlament. last and most importantly it allowed me to militarily and politically destroy the only people who could have thwarted my plans for world domination... the Creek Nation, they have never had the strength or will to use their greater magics since.

now wanna guess who actually won world war two?

Do tell! Do tell! I never knew that about the War of 1812! Its a conspiracy, I knew it!

The war was clearly a stalemate. Could haves and would haves mean nothing in war, so all that Britain could have done if so and so hadn't happened is utterly irrelevant. The British accomplished nothing of significance, including the sack of Washington, which was largely symbolic and had no real adverse effect on the United States. The US failed in almost all of it's military initiatives other than not getting crushed by a clearly more dominant power. In any book that I've ever read, no territory changed hands, and the only change of note was that Britain curtailed the impressment of American sailors. It was a draw; a tie; a stalemate. An exercise in futility.

The war was clearly a stalemate. Could haves and would haves mean nothing in war, so all that Britain could have done if so and so hadn't happened is utterly irrelevant. The British accomplished nothing of significance, including the sack of Washington, which was largely symbolic and had no real adverse effect on the United States. The US failed in almost all of it's military initiatives other than not getting crushed by a clearly more dominant power. In any book that I've ever read, no territory changed hands, and the only change of note was that Britain curtailed the impressment of American sailors. It was a draw; a tie; a stalemate. An exercise in futility.

Agreed.

And are we forgetting the British boarding US Naval ships and stealing American sailors for their own war? Or is that just some overlooked fact because CLEARLY (yeah, sure) the U.S. was just as war-mongering then as they are now.

And consider Canadian territories as completely British owned and operated, not as innocent little Canada. Then perhaps you wont look at them as so poor and American-oppressed anymore.


Damn I hate getting into this debate.

British tried to destroy U.S., a couple victories, but failed their objective of taking back the colonies.
The Americans tried to gain territory but failed in said objective.
The British and the Americans agreed to stop the war.

Hands shook.
No winner.
The End.

Bloody hell, shut up now.


Bingo. I love this debate so much. The Canadian's here have a reputation for winging almost as much as the Brits, and they seem to love harping on this. But when I come back with excuse me what about impressment, the blockade, and the Indians, they almost universally come back with "huh?" :rolleyes:

As for the result:
The war was brought to a close without any definitive adjustment of the controverted principles in which it had originated. It left the questions of neutral commerce with an enemy and his colonies, of bottom and cargo, of blockade and contraband of war, and even of impressment, precisely as they had been before the war.
J.Q.Adams' "The Origin Of The War (1812)"
http://www.multied.com/documents/OriginsWAR1812.html

Dostanuot Loj: You could argue that the US invaded Upper Canada, but not Canada, an entity that didn't exist until The Act of Union created the Province of Canada in 1840.

I think what we can all agree on here, American, Canadian, or British is that textbooks and education in general seem to propagandized to a certain extent in all nations, even in our modern democracies. A great example is the current situation in Asia with protests in China and Korea over a textbook that supposedly whitewashes Japanese history.

The U.S. military might have been able to win the war very easily if they had properly trained their militiary from the beginning.

The US still held to the pre-Revolutionary principle that standing armies were a tool of tyranny and oppression. The War of 1812 taught the US that they couldn't afford not to have one.

As for land grab and not, I read once and I'm not sure if this is a result of the war of 1812 or not, but I read the Britts actually had a fort on the othe side of Lake Ontario or Lake Michigan(forget which one) and when the British personelle in chagre of drawing the maps, made his little map he fudged the boundry line a little. However I can't find any proof of this right now so take it as you will.
It doesn't really qualify as a gain of territory, since it doesn't involve any land... but the US did gain full control of Lake Erie in the war of 1812, due to the naval victory there.

US naval success in the War of 1812 and the Quasi War that preceeded it was quite unexpected, considering they were matched against the greatest naval power in the world. It gave the young nation the confidence to proceed with the construction of a world-class navy.

The US Won The War Because Of Their Damn Victory in New Orleans

The US Won The War Because Of Their Damn Victory in New Orleans

Ahem.

"Their Damn Victory in New Orleans" came after the Treaty of Ghent had already been signed. While it was the most impressive and decisive battle of the war, ultimately it didn't mean jack s**t.

The US Won The War Because Of Their Damn Victory in New Orleans

The Battle of New Orleans had as much of an effect on the outcome of the War of 1812 as all the battles that the British could have won if they weren't tied up in Europe. Nil.

what the hell was the war of 1812? :confused:

what the hell was the war of 1812? :confused:
Love it.

Actually no one won that war,

Canada was not Canada at this point for starters. It was still a colony and not even Named Canada.

No land exchanged hands, in other words the bounderies stayed the same as they did before the war. If you have other maps due share them please.

You view point is biased to claim what you have written as otherwise is well just utter BS. Try to look up things and not take what you learn in school, especially schools funded by Governments.

What about Lake Eerie? We totally snatched it. No Lake Erie = No Erie Canal. I'd say we gained some good land there.

Seriously though, I'd call the war a stalemate, though the U.S. militia and navy won the great majority of battles.

what the hell was the war of 1812? :confused:

It was the sideshow going on while the Europeans were dealing with Napoleon. U.S. vs. British Empire Round 2. After the Revolution, British policy treated the renegade colonies kind of in a half-status, in that it was fine to Impress Americans to serve on His Majesty's ships, intercept U.S. flagged Commerce, and generally treat them a bit like... well, like Colonies that haven't yet been subdued back to the crown.

Now, the Americans, who'd gone out and taught the Barbary Pirates a lesson in 1807, found this treatment somewhat annoying, naturally, they believed they were free of the Crown's Authority, having a peace-treaty to that effect in-hand, a new (relatively) Constitution, and a working (if not overlarge) Navy-that had already proven effective at a certain task His Majesty's Fighting Ships failed to achieve (The cessation of corsair attack from Tripoli, as in the line in the Marine Corps Hymn "To the shores of Tripoli")

You must remember, His majesty's armies were fighting the French, and His Majesty's ships needed crews (Nelson's navy, in case you were wondering).
The British Admiralty simply would not give up impressing those 'rebel scum' to do their duty as Englishmen.

harsh words were exchanged, and the Americans declared WAR. (Quite unsporting, really...just not cricket, it was the general policy among the world powers to 'impress' (that means draft) sailors regardless of their home-country to serve on ships of the line, and Yankees were good enough to speak english, unlike, say, Spaniards, or Portugese.) Well, you know you can't have a good war without trying to invade someone-and the British Empire had this large Colony (which, incidentally, happened to be one of the main clearinghouses for 'impressed' American sailors, as well as a relatively well-staffed military base...)just to the North.
The Brits had been supplying a number of the local neighbours of the Yanks with arms and money for some time-using sock-puppets to bring their wayward kin back to his Majesty's fold, you know.
Taking Canada out of the equation as a supply base for, ah... "Native Allies", and closing the British presence out of North America seemed like a Dandy idea-it would impress upon the Crown the fact that, as far as the Yanks were concerned, they were NOT subjects of the House of Windsor, and that the Revolution did, in deed happen, was not a fluke, and American Sailors were not to be drafted to serve on British Royal Navy Ships.

That's the American side.

Naturally, the British Empire held a differing view, and proceeded to sack and burn Washington D.C. (and torch the White House-which was only a few years old at the time) in order to impress on those rowdy Yanks that "Yes, We can make you our bitch at any time, and we're not going to stop trying, because you really belong to Britain, you just haven't come to your senses yet."

This disagreement was conducted in a rather ungentlemanly manner on both sides-the Americans used a new, fast-Frigate design with angled cross-bracing in the hull (More durable than previous naval ships of the class, kind of the pocket-battleship of the time-it could outgun anything it couldn't out run, and out-run anything it couldn't out-gun) and a large number of modified-and-pressed-into-service Schooners and sloops. These were remarkably good weapons for fighting British-run ships on the Great Lakes.
The Fast-Frigates proved to be 'manly enough' to do serious damage to the Royal Navy's vessels in several engagements, repeating the lesson the Brits taught the Spanish some time before. (Low, Fast, heavily-armed ships are not nice to dance with using a tall battlewagon)

In 1815, with the European war going full-honk and no time to be goofing around with people who (at sea) don't fight fair, stand-up, proper line-of-battle fights, the Crown reconsidered its position (Though British Land forces had already spanked most of hte Yank forces quite thoroughly in the Great North of Canada, and were busily laying siege to New Orleans). Part of this was the need to concentrate on the European conflict (lest old Boney try to storm the cliffs of Dover or something), and part of it was the realization that American ships were interfering virtually at-will with the flow of money from the lucrative India trade.

With the signing of a peace-treaty, the war ended some time before its final battles were fought-this is what happens when you make peace in london while men are fighting in Louisiana.

American war aims: "Stop Treating US Like your Colonies!!!" -Achieved.
British War Aims:
1. "Defend Canadian colonies, punish the yanks for their cheek"-Achieved (partially)
2. "Force the stupid rebels to realize they need us" -Failed, miserably.
3. "Defend the practice of Impressment on the high seas by the Royal Navy"- Failed.

Best out of three: U.S. Victory-really the FIRST true U.S. Victory, since no 'allied' powers were to be had. King Louis was quite dead, and few on the western side of the Atlantic had any use for Emperor Napoleon.
(Though we did get a hell of a bargain on some real-estate from him...)

Canadians, of course, feel hairy-chested and manly over the British Victories on land-but that was the British Empire's victory (all of them), Canada didn't exist until 1840, and the local boys at sea were...less than adequate-which is why the Americans call it a Victory. (See, the British won some battles, but lost the war.)

Before the war The british did not respect U.S. sovereignty and the U.S. thought the british colonies should be 'liberated'. After the war the British respected U.S. sovereignty and the U.S. has still never figured out that invasion is not liberation. The U.S. won the war if you consider 183 more years of unbridled stupidity a victory. I'm not just bitching aboot Iraq either.

this entire debate was discussed exhaustively less than a month ago

it was pretty clearly shown to have been a draw

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409604

Before the war The british did not respect U.S. sovereignty and the U.S. thought the british colonies should be 'liberated'.

I don't think anyone has ever claimed the U.S. invaded Canada during the war of 1812 to "liberate" Canada. :rolleyes: That's all I'll say about that. I'm a relatively polite person, see. :)

this entire debate was discussed exhaustively less than a month ago

it was pretty clearly shown to have been a draw

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=409604

Since when has the fact that it's already been discussed ever stopped anyone on this forum from arguing the point again and again?

Since when has the fact that it's already been discussed ever stopped anyone on this forum from arguing the point again and again?

Never. Not in a million years.

Since when has the fact that it's already been discussed ever stopped anyone on this forum from arguing the point again and again?

Well, it arguably wasn't just "discussed." More like beaten to death several times over. And within a week or so, too. The other thread might be helpful to someone honestly wanting info on the war, since many of us who offered our research on the topic don't particularly want to rehash it.

Originally posted by Cadillac-Gage
<snip>
Nice informative (if not a tad biased) post there. However, there are some things I'd like to add.

During the buildup to the war, the influence and rhetoric of the of the "War Hawks," a group of politicians from the western and southern states, pushed for the war, arguing that the British were, as mentioned, arming natives to attack American settlements on the frontier and injuring our naval commerce, which directly hurt the Southern agriculture industry. What the Hawks suggested was for America to sieze Canada, which far from being a "relatively well-staffed military base," had a standing garrison of less than 10,000 troops (remember that this is for all of Upper and Lower Canada). This would be simple, as the UK was distracted and the American army, young as it was, was at least supposedly much stronger than the armies in Canada.

Not to say that Britain was in any way innocent, either. The British were certainly in the practice of aiding the Native Americans, though not to the extent suggested by the Hawks. They also were refusing American merchant ships access to the ports and markets of all European countries observing the Continental System, and of course, that sticky issue of impressment, a clear violation of American neutrality which involved Royal Navy vessels simply stopping anybody, anytime they felt like it, and carrying off a couple of "deserters" to staff their undermanned ships, as improving navy sailor's conditions or pay was certainly out of the question. This escalated to the point where a Royal Navy warship actually opened fire on and boarded an US frigate (Wikipedia tells me it was the USS Chesapeake), prompting understandable outrage in the US.

Despite the plotting of the War Hawks and the increasing aggresion of the British Navy, the declaration of war was delayed by New England, whose merchants had formed important ties to London banks. As going to war with a nation tends to hurt your mutual economic relations, they managed to delay the issue until James Madison asked Congress for a declaration of war on June 1, 1812. In one of history's funny twists, Parliament had declared a day earlier that the UK would end the practice of impressment. Obviously the information didn't travel fast enough to make a difference, though it would be somewhat presumptuous to assume that the Americans would have considered simply not doing it anymore as ample atonement for years worth of attacks on our lawful maritime trading. As it was, war was officially declared on June 18.

Of course, when America did invade Canada, things went less well than we had planned. As it turned out, we didn't have nearly as large of a standing army as we thought we did. Oops. Also, most of the commanders who had led our armies in the Revolutionary War had since retired, leaving a wholly inexperienced officer corps in their place. In the west, Tecumseh and his alliance of native powers allied with the British, and their combined forces smashed the mostly militia forces of Hull, ending the invasion. After that, William Henry Harrison was given command of US forces and launched a second invasion of Canada. During this campaign (and I'm suprised that somebody hasn't mentioned this yet) American forces captured and razed the Canadian provincial capital (York, apparently) before being driven back again.

Meanwhile on the Great Lakes, the British siezed Lake Ontario while the US took Lake Erie. American forces captured and burned Fort George and the nearby Niagra-on-the-Lake, on the mouth of the Niagra River on Lake Ontario. In response for this, the British levelled most of everything anywhere near Buffalo.

A few months later, the mainland US was invaded by the British. Unfortunately for the Americans, the UK and her allies had finally ended the nonsense with that Coriscan running around embarrassing Europe's kings. Thus Britain could now focus her attention and her armies on the situation in North America. The British sailed up the Chesapeake and landed their forces. The American defenses organized in Maryland were quickly routed, and the British captured and torched Washington, D.C., then attempted to bombard and invade Baltimore, where, as every true American child knows, they failed to take the fortress and were forced to withdraw. In the north, British forces prepared for an attack southwards into Vermont, but their loss during the Battle of Lake Champlain cut their supply routes and forced them to withdraw.

While all this had been going on, the US Navy, which nobody really had expected to perform very well, won a startling string of naval victories against the seasoned Royal Navy. The British public, by now used to "a steady diet of naval success," did practically panic at the reports of the losses. No small part of the US's successes were their heavy frigates, which were somewhere in between a frigate and a line-of-battleship and combined many of the successful traits of both. France and Britain had experimented with heavy frigates in the late eighteenth century and concluded them to be impossible to work with. America, not knowing any better, came in later, and messed everything up by getting them to work, so well, in fact, that British frigates stood no chance against them. The US Navy worked extensive damage to British trade across the world, and were stopped only when the British blocade against American ports became too overwhelming to handle.

The Treaty of Ghent, signed in late December 1814 ended the war while restoring everything to pre-war status. Before the news reached the US, there was some commotion in New Orleans, "Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississipp" and such, but it was after the treaty was signed and thus didn't matter. So there.

In the end, the war didn't really, at least in the short term, change anything. People generally mention "honor," and "prestige," but in the end, there wasn't really a real winner. War is kinda like that, funny enough. Well, I'm going to bed now.

Just a quick query...I thought the "White House" was only painted White (i.e. my assumption of the the origins of its name), after it and the rest of D.C. got burnt down?

Greater Boblandia makes a very important point. British apologists in this forum like to point out that Napoleon kept the British from investing anything more than token participation in the War of 1812. That was true in the beginning... but when Paris surrendered in March of 1814, Britain released forces for a massive invasion of America. The plan was for a three-pronged attack:

1) Massive invasion down the Hudson River to cut off New England from the rest of the country (think revised implimentation of Burgoyne's Revolutionary War plan).
2) Massive invasion into the deep South via the mouth of the Mississippi.
3) Diversionary attack at Chesapeake Bay area.

The only prong of that attack which had any success was the diversionary attack. The British dealt with the American forces pretty easily, and found the road opened to them to Washington. So they took the opportunity. Further attack towards Baltimore failed, and the diversionary attack stalled.

The Hudson River attack was the most important of the campaign, and it ended quickly. The US naval victory at Lake Champlain cut off their supplies, and it was lack of supplies which ultimately doomed Burgoyne during the Revolution. The British abandoned the invasion.

It was the Battle of Lake Champlain which sent the British to the peace table.

And we all know how that attack on the mouth of the Mississippi went. The moral of the story is, the US successfully turned away the full might of the British army in 1814. The idea that the British would have won if they had committed more forces is ignorant at best.

Since when has the fact that it's already been discussed ever stopped anyone on this forum from arguing the point again and again?

chuckle... a good point

ok, here was my summary

the US and UK fought a war which ended without a conclusive victory on either side. The US attempted to invade Canada in 1812 and were repulsed handily. The US and British then fought it out in the Great Lake region and the US managed to gain control of Lake Erie and neither side gained control of Lake Ontario (although the naval build up stimulated US industry in what would become Pittsburgh.... so I guess Pittsburgh at least got a win). Meanwhile, the US destroyed Indian armies (well, large collections of warriors anyway) that were supported by the British (weapons and advisors) in current day Indiana and Alabama (Fallen Timbers and Horseshoe Bend, both generals later became US Presidents).

Meanwhile, at sea, the US embarrassed the British navy in a series of small ship to ship actions (coming out ahead in victories the first 2 years) causing the RN to order that British warships were to avoid action with the Americans unless having a numerical advantage (sensible and doable as the RN outnumbered the USN by about 12 to 1 in the theaters of war by 1813). The RN blockaded the US coast, bringing US trade to a halt, and even crippling coastal trade (very important before railroads.... 19th century roads everywhere sucked and especially so in the US and Russia). Meanwhile, the main attention of the British was on Napoleon, who was pretty much defeated by early 1814, allowing the British to send sizeable invasion forces to Canada as well as Nova Scotia.

The British invaded along the Lake Champlain front as well as directly across the Niagra River. The US fought them to a draw on land then crushed their naval support at Lake Champlain. Unable to extend their logistics further south, the British gave up that front and pulled back across the border (except for some lightly populated counties occupied for a time in Maine).

Meanwhile, the British launched an amphibious landing in Maryland, brushed aside US militia (who broke and ran) and a small force of US Marines and Sailors (who mostly died in place) and burned Washington DC to make up for the US burning of what is now Toronto. Then they tried to take Baltimore, and where repulsed with heavy losses of infantry and their commander was killed. The British then pulled back, as the operation to crush the principal US privateer base at Baltimore failed.

Most of these troops then got sent to New Orleans, where they mostly died in a wasteful frontal assault against entrenched US regulars and militia backed by a lot of cannon. The British commander there was killed as well.

At sea in 1813 - 14 US privateers took a lot of British merchant ships as prizes (significant in number although not crippling as a percentage), enough to drive insurance rates sky high, raising the ire of British merchants who demanded the war come to an end as it wasn't accomplishing anything. Meanwhile, the US was going broke as it wasn't getting much in tax money (back then taxes were principally raised only through import duties). A New England effort to secede was defeated politically as well as morally, especially after DC was burned and the RN decided to extend the blockade to cover New England as well.

As Napoleon was in exile in Elba, and the British Taxpayers wanted taxes to be lowered, the British public was weary of war after nearly 3 decades, and the attempt to conquer the US has once again failed, the British government offered a peace based on the status quo pre war. The US government, broke and fully aware that it couldn't conquer Canada but satisfied with having crushed British efforts to hem in the US with an independent British backed Native American client state said yes to peace as well.

Ironically, New Orleans occurs after the Treaty of Ghent ending the war but before news reached either the British or American commander.

Anybody willing to bet the British would have given New Orleans back to the US if they took it? Most historians don't think they would have.

Bottom line, the war was a draw. It was important to the US at a fundamental level and is considered by many American historians to be the Second American Revolution as it forced the British to treat the US as a nation state instead of a wayward colony. That is the US victory.

The British victory was in retaining Canada and getting along with a rather rambuctious US throughout the 19th Century, which turned out to be rather damned important in the 20th Century.

Both won, both got a draw and the expansionistic idiots on both sides lost (a lot of Brits wanted to take the US back after all, and of course some Americans wanted to take over Canada).

Hey, maybe these were already posted, but has anyone else heard the Newsboy's song "The War of 1812"?

Heres the lyrics from http://www.lyricsdownload.com/newsboys-the-war-of-1812-lyrics.html

OH come back proud Canadians
To before they had TV
No Hockey Night in Canada
There was no CBC

In 1812 Madison was mad
He was the President, you know
He thought he'd tell the British
Where they ought to go

He thought he'd invade Canada
He thought that he was tough
Instead we went to Washington
And burned down all his stuff

And the White House burned, burned, burned
And we're the ones that did it!
It burned burned burned
While the President ran and cried

It burned burned burned
Things were very historical
and the Americans ran and cried like a bunch of little babies, wah wah wah
in the war of 1812!

Now some hillbillies from Kentucky
dressed in green and red
left home to fight in Canada
but they returned home dead

Its only war the Yankees lost
except for Vietnam
and also the Alamo
and the Bay of... Ham

The loser was America
The winner was ourselves
So sing along and gloat about
The war of 1812

Chorus:
And the White House burned, burned, burned
But the Americans won't admit it
It burned burned burned
It burned and burned and burned

It burned burned burned
I bet that made them mad
and the Americans ran and cried like a bunch of little babies, wah wah wah
in the war of 1812!

What!

The British burned down Washington DC!

Those Evil Terrorist Bastads!

I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM! I HATE THEM!


AAAAAHHHH!!!!!!

AAAAAHHHH!!!!!!


We'll never forgive those,.... those limey bastards!

AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

Oh,..... we already forgave them?

Well never mind then. :D

Personally, I just think the Americans won it since they got thier national anthem out of the war. I might add, that it was added to the tune of a drinking song. Can Canada claim that? I think not.

America did win the war, because the British withdrew

Withdrawl=Defeat in those days

In my humble opinion the war was a draw. Both sides had victories and defeats, and no side really gained anything from the war. Of course as a Canadian I love to think that we won the war, and I always grin a little when I think about the fact that we burned down Washington. I know we were still a British colony, but c'mon us Canadians need something to be proud of right? Got to admit, Madison must have had some pretty big balls in order to have the courage to declare war on Great Britain.

Now the real question, who would win a modern day war of 1812? Canada (with the British as allies, thanks to the liberals :headbang: the military is gonna be gone in just over a decade) or the United States of America (no bringing Bush into this)?

Canada was named the Dominion of Canada, or the Colony of Canada at the time. It had the large Rupert's Land territory, British Columbia, the Red River Settlement was formed, Nova Scotia, Canada (Quebec) and Upper Canada.

About who "won" the war. Britain DID raze the capital. But they also withdrew. Depending on what school of history you subscribe to (Hegelian-dialectic, etc.) to determines who the "winner" is.

As for a modern war...China would win. America has no chance in hell of subjugating a rich nation that has the industrial capability to raise a large army in a matter of a year. On top of that, as little as people see it, Canada has a very nationalistic underpinning. Especially in Quebec where any assimilative policies breed things like the FLQ and the October Crisis. Given the relative nature of American manifest destiny politiks, they would suffer immense casualties and would probably simply lose out, because China and other nations would see this as a grand oppurtunity to expand economically and force-purchase all of the resources, thereby getting a leg up. Of course, America knows that it cannot attack Canada. And Canada knows that it is hella safe.

Hey, maybe these were already posted, but has anyone else heard the Newsboy's song "The War of 1812"?

Heres the lyrics from http://www.lyricsdownload.com/newsboys-the-war-of-1812-lyrics.html

OH come back proud Canadians
To before they had TV
No Hockey Night in Canada
There was no CBC

In 1812 Madison was mad
He was the President, you know
He thought he'd tell the British
Where they ought to go

He thought he'd invade Canada
He thought that he was tough
Instead we went to Washington
And burned down all his stuff

And the White House burned, burned, burned
And we're the ones that did it!
It burned burned burned
While the President ran and cried

It burned burned burned
Things were very historical
and the Americans ran and cried like a bunch of little babies, wah wah wah
in the war of 1812!

Now some hillbillies from Kentucky
dressed in green and red
left home to fight in Canada
but they returned home dead

Its only war the Yankees lost
except for Vietnam
and also the Alamo
and the Bay of... Ham

The loser was America
The winner was ourselves
So sing along and gloat about
The war of 1812

Chorus:
And the White House burned, burned, burned
But the Americans won't admit it
It burned burned burned
It burned and burned and burned

It burned burned burned
I bet that made them mad
and the Americans ran and cried like a bunch of little babies, wah wah wah
in the war of 1812!
Hey jerk, we got one from you too

http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/battleof.htm

Well, in eighteen and fourteen we took a little trip
along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississip.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans,
And we caught the bloody British near the town of New Orleans.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Well, I see'd Mars Jackson walkin down the street
talkin’ to a pirate by the name of Jean Lafayette [pronounced La-feet]
He gave Jean a drink that he brung from Tennessee
and the pirate said he’d help us drive the British in the sea.

The French said Andrew, you’d better run,
for Packingham’s a comin’ with a bullet in his gun.
Old Hickory said he didn’t give a dang,
he’s gonna whip the britches off of Colonel Packingham.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Well, we looked down the river and we see'd the British come,
and there must have been a hundred of 'em beatin' on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made their bugles ring
while we stood by our cotton bales and didn't say a thing.

Old Hickory said we could take 'em by surprise
if we didn't fire a musket til we looked 'em in the eyes.
We held our fire til we see'd their faces well,
then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave a yell.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
There wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Well, we fired our cannon til the barrel melted down,
so we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls and powdered his behind,
and when they tetched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.

We’ll march back home but we’ll never be content
till we make Old Hickory the people’s President.
And every time we think about the bacon and the beans,
we’ll think about the fun we had way down in New Orleans.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin,
But there wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

Well, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn't go.
They ran so fast the hounds couldn't catch 'em
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

We fired our guns and the British kept a'comin.
But there wasn't nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin'
down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.

#1 Reason why Canada kicks butt: Able to launch the only invasion of America that burned the American capital to the ground. (Yeah I know the Brits launched but work with me here)

America got its ground forces toasted, but we did suprisingly well during the sea battles. 1812 was kinda like 'Nam in that there was no clear winner and the only clear losers were the dead guys.

#1 Reason why Canada kicks butt: Able to launch the only invasion of America that burned the American capital to the ground. (Yeah I know the Brits launched but work with me here)

America got its ground forces toasted, but we did suprisingly well during the sea battles. 1812 was kinda like 'Nam in that there was no clear winner and the only clear losers were the dead guys.
Next time I hear Canadians complain about how patriotic and big-headed Americans are, I'm going to point to you.

Or maybe I'll just create a giant list. 1812 topics could add at least 5 people per thread.

US burns York/Toronto.
British burn Washington.

US makes incursions into Canada, fails to do anything.
Britain makes incursions into US, fails to do anything.

US maintains control of the Great Lakes.
Britain loses influence in the great lakes.

Situation in the Atlantic changes about nil. With the British maintaining a huge Man o' War fleet, and the US having several of the world's best frigates.

And the British agreed to the Treaty of Ghent well after Napoleon was defeated. Britain was parading around the continent victorius, I don't see who would have bitched all that much.

I think we have a fairly even war. It's a solid tie.

Hey, maybe these were already posted, but has anyone else heard the Newsboy's song "The War of 1812"?

Heres the lyrics from http://www.lyricsdownload.com/newsboys-the-war-of-1812-lyrics.html

OH come back proud Canadians
To before they had TV
No Hockey Night in Canada
There was no CBC

In 1812 Madison was mad
He was the President, you know
He thought he'd tell the British
Where they ought to go

He thought he'd invade Canada
He thought that he was tough
Instead we went to Washington
And burned down all his stuff

And the White House burned, burned, burned
And we're the ones that did it!
It burned burned burned
While the President ran and cried

It burned burned burned
Things were very historical
and the Americans ran and cried like a bunch of little babies, wah wah wah
in the war of 1812!

Now some hillbillies from Kentucky
dressed in green and red
left home to fight in Canada
but they returned home dead

Its only war the Yankees lost
except for Vietnam
and also the Alamo
and the Bay of... Ham

The loser was America
The winner was ourselves
So sing along and gloat about
The war of 1812

Chorus:
And the White House burned, burned, burned
But the Americans won't admit it
It burned burned burned
It burned and burned and burned

It burned burned burned
I bet that made them mad
and the Americans ran and cried like a bunch of little babies, wah wah wah
in the war of 1812!

Huh. And we Americans are supposed to be a jingoistic lot. At least here in the US, we celebrate things the US actually did. Canada has accomplished so very little on the world stage they have no other options but to bask in the glory of an insignificant British victory.