NationStates Jolt Archive

I am of the personal belief that this war isn't being fought over oil, or WOMDs, or Bush's own agenda... but rather, we're fighting a war for Israel.

Think about it. The rumor going around is that we'll be going into Syria and Iran next. Syria, Iran, and Iraq are the biggest threats to Israel in the region. The Israeli government is using the United States as a pawn to take out their biggest enemies so they don't have to do it themselves, and since the Jewish lobby holds so much sway over the US government, and everyone is so afraid to speak out against them because they'll be branded as anti-semites, we're too afraid to say no.

Here is my disclaimer: I am not an anti-semite. I do not hate Jews, many of my best friends are Jews. However, I dislike the actions and policies of the government of Israel. I am only saying this because it's the same people who give me the "separation of church and state" stuff that tell me "if you hate Israel, then you hate Jews."

If your theory was correct, then we should see corrisponding rises in funding of Israel, increased diplomatic ties with Israel, or at the very least Israel moving to take advantage of US actions.

Perhaps you could interpret the Syrian withdrawl from Lebanon as as pro-Israeli move by the US government, but Lebanon has been more or less quiet for some time, and no longer affects Israel very directly.

Israeli actions lately include fortiying their position in one territory while preparing to pull out of 2 others. If this is their "taking advantage" of the Iraq war, they're being awfully reasonable in going for very limited goals with clear objectives.

Your theory is possible, but it seems fairly unlikely. Taking out Iraq as a thorn in Israel's side would help somewhat, but there are many dozens of other actions the US could have taken that would have had a greater effect. Remember Iraq was weak and crumbling, Iran was getting stronger, and Saudi Arabia was getting more volitile. Why target the weakest problem if you're looking to help an ally?

A more likely explination would be the commonly held belief that the US is looking to create a stable base of operations, now that Saudi Arabia is proving too difficult to work with. The "Enduring bases" that are being set up in Iraq show at least the possibilty of long-term garrisons in Iraq.

I am of the personal belief that this war isn't being fought over oil, or WOMDs, or Bush's own agenda... but rather, we're fighting a war for Israel.

Think about it. The rumor going around is that we'll be going into Syria and Iran next. Syria, Iran, and Iraq are the biggest threats to Israel in the region. The Israeli government is using the United States as a pawn to take out their biggest enemies so they don't have to do it themselves, and since the Jewish lobby holds so much sway over the US government, and everyone is so afraid to speak out against them because they'll be branded as anti-semites, we're too afraid to say no.
Wait a sec, there's a flaw in this theory. America, the most powerful country in the world, doesn't do anything to humor small and clingy countries. Count on it, if America invaded Iraq, it was mostly for the pursuit of a real or percieved self-interest. If that self-interest happens to ovelap with Israel's, fine, but there's no basis for claims that the (largely democratic) Jewish inhabitants of the US had anything to do with this war.

....but there's no basis for claims that the (largely democratic) Jewish inhabitants of the US had anything to do with this war.

Well, there is actually. Neo-cons have a large body of Jewish intellectuals driving their idealology, and the Neo-conservitive movement has strong ties to prominent Jewish interest/lobbying groups.

That's why I addressed his point from the other angle, it is concievable that the Bush administration was goaded, pushed, or plied into this war. Its just not very likely that it would happen without, as you put it, overlapping interests.

Here is my disclaimer: I am not an anti-semite. I do not hate Jews, many of my best friends are Jews. However, I dislike the actions and policies of the government of Israel. I am only saying this because it's the same people who give me the "separation of church and state" stuff that tell me "if you hate Israel, then you hate Jews."

Here is my disclaimer: I grew up basically jewish though I am Indian. Everyone I knew growing up was Jewish. Most of my girlfriends have been jewish. My best friend for the last 15 years is Jewish. Do you know what, I cant stand them. Ordinary Jewish people are fine. But orthodox/hasidic jews are the worst. I have never met more more obnoxious/arrogant people. My "regular" jewish friends hate them also. I have been in so many situations where I understand why they have been hated throughout history

That being said, I would gladly give my life to protect Israel. I have no real problem with the Palestinians, except that I believe they are being manipulated by other middle east govts. Its in the interests of may tin pot doctctors to portray Israel as evil, if only tod istract the poeple from the crap they have to live in.

Well, there is actually. Neo-cons have a large body of Jewish intellectuals driving their idealology, and the Neo-conservitive movement has strong ties to prominent Jewish interest/lobbying groups.

That's why I addressed his point from the other angle, it is concievable that the Bush administration was goaded, pushed, or plied into this war. Its just not very likely that it would happen without, as you put it, overlapping interests.I fail to see why the Bush admin would be "goaded" into doing anything they didn't want to do themselves. Clearly the neocons in the administration are just that; PART of the administration, and have influance as such. Those individuals are hardly representatives of a wider "Jewish lobby" in the general public. Your argument's flaw is that you equate Jewish Americans to Israeli government in terms of influance, power, and even interest. It is also important to make a distinction between Jewish people that live in the diaspora, and the government of the state of Israel; the two entities don't really have much to do with each other. The relationship between Israel and the US is certainly uneven and dependant, but the other way around.

Here is my disclaimer: I grew up basically jewish though I am Indian. Everyone I knew growing up was Jewish. Most of my girlfriends have been jewish. My best friend for the last 15 years is Jewish. Do you know what, I cant stand them. Ordinary Jewish people are fine. But orthodox/hasidic jews are the worst. I have never met more more obnoxious/arrogant people. My "regular" jewish friends hate them also. I have been in so many situations where I understand why they have been hated throughout history
How is this in any way relevant to the topic at hand? And most uber-religious close-minded bigots are insufferable. big deal.

I fail to see why the Bush admin would be "goaded" into doing anything they didn't want to do themselves. Clearly the neocons in the administration are just that; PART of the administration, and have influance as such. Those individuals are hardly representatives of a wider "Jewish lobby" in the general public. Your argument's flaw is that you equate Jewish Americans to Israeli government in terms of influance, power, and even interest. It is also important to make a distinction between Jewish people that live in the diaspora, and the government of the state of Israel; the two entities don't really have much to do with each other. The relationship between Israel and the US is certainly uneven and dependant, but the other way around.

I said concievable, for example; Paul Wolfiwitz has been accused several times of pushing behind the scenes for the war even before 9/11. If after 9/11 he had the president's ear, he could have used his influence to goad the president into chosing Iraq as a target instead of concentrating on Bin Laden.

I think we have problem with out definitions as well. The "Jewish lobby" is made up of several independent groups, each having a different agenda. Some are merely there to perserve and protect the interests of Jewish people in the US, other have foriegn policy agendas.

The "Jewish lobby" is also not nessascarily represenitive of the wishes or opinions of the Jewish population in the US or in Israel. That's simply common sense, right? I equated the wishes of a few key induviduals within the US lobbies and administration to POSSIBLE motives on the part of the state of Israel (state, not the people, as you say). I assumed that understanding was a given in any disuccion of politics; the induvidual and the state can be seperate and have different views on any given issue.

Remember that I argue against this theory of possible conspiracy between the State of Israel and the US. I find it unlikely to have occured. But it IS possible. Scenerios have already been constructed (I believe a Frontline program on PBS showed one), whereby members of the Neo-con movement, aided by prominent members of Jewish interest groups, persuaded the president to change the US reponse to 9/11 and shift focus to Iraq.

I am not at all convinced that the Israeli government was interested in the US invasion of Iraq in the first place.

The popular opinion here did support the war, just like in Kuwait- because, let's face it, nobody liked Saddam as a neighbor. But as for the Israeli government, I doubt they wanted all this hassle. In fact, there was a lot of talk against it, because after the war Bush and Blair would be forced to appeace the Arab League by putting pressure on Israel (which he did, as I recall, by introducing the "road map to pieces").
Besides, by and large, Iraq was a secondary threat to Israel, not an existential one. Israel and Iraq share no common border, and Iraq never attacked Israel one-on-one, only in the context of a larger conflict (they've sent army units to fight against Israel in 1948, 1967 and 1973). In the 90-s, Israel was mostly threatened by Iraq as a way of anti-American blackmail: "if you don't behave, we'll bomb your friend", so for Israel to remain secure from Iraqi attacks, the US would have to NOT do anything anti-Iraqi.

How is this in any way relevant to the topic at hand? And most uber-religious close-minded bigots are insufferable. big deal.


Thats a good question. Why did I post that? ..... Donnt have an answer. and btw it isnt relevant to the topic

Thanlks for clarifying Nicolo, makes sense to me. Looks like we agree, more or less!

The wars are perfect for bin Laden no matter why they’re fought.
For every killed terrorist, 3 new ones appear, it’s a perfect plan.
That is also why there has not been a terrorist attack in the US prior to the election. If the US was attacked before the election, Bush would have lost.
Osama needs those wars to gain support, and it works.

In the next ten years there is going to be a huge attack in the US.
Al-Qaeda is not weakening, but stronger than ever.

Many European nations are leaving the coalition - so there will probably be some attacks on those nations to make them come back.

I disagree, the war is for oil. When 9/11 took place the American government tried to make a connection between the attacks and Iraq. America does not produce enough oil to fuel the country, and the government is corrupt, therefor, they must blow up a country with their own weapons of mass destruction to get OIL! :mad:

There are tons of critics of Israel. Anyone who thinks either side has been anywhere close to angelic is getting a direct feed from propaganda.

I've heard nothing of Syria, although I have heard about invasions of Iran. If Frutex* has a brain, he won't invade Iran, since that'll kill his approval rating. I always felt like North Korea would be much more likely as the next target though. And they are nowhere near Israel. We'll see, we'll see....






*Latin for Bush. Also means Blockhead. The Romans were smart :P

Here is my disclaimer: I grew up basically jewish though I am Indian. Everyone I knew growing up was Jewish. Most of my girlfriends have been jewish. My best friend for the last 15 years is Jewish. Do you know what, I cant stand them. Ordinary Jewish people are fine. But orthodox/hasidic jews are the worst. I have never met more more obnoxious/arrogant people. My "regular" jewish friends hate them also. I have been in so many situations where I understand why they have been hated throughout history

That being said, I would gladly give my life to protect Israel. I have no real problem with the Palestinians, except that I believe they are being manipulated by other middle east govts. Its in the interests of may tin pot doctctors to portray Israel as evil, if only tod istract the poeple from the crap they have to live in.
Hmm, have you ever met really, really religious Mormons? You know, the people going around baptizing the jews that died in the holocaust. Now that's arrogant.

The wars are perfect for bin Laden no matter why they’re fought.
For every killed terrorist, 3 new ones appear, it’s a perfect plan.
Do you have any evidence at all that supports your logic? Or are you just barking out your ass?

Hmm, have you ever met really, really religious Mormons? You know, the people going around baptizing the jews that died in the holocaust. Now that's arrogant.OOH! the mormons! They are really quite useful, since they collect tons of documents of all sorts: birth certificates, passports, etc, and keep databases of them. Their reasoning for doing all this is just like you said, they like baptising dead people, or rather, think that if they baptize a live Jew, all ther ancestors will be converted too. Go figure.
Anyway, this comes in useful: my neighbor, for instance, was looking for some details about her family that died in the Holocaust, and was able to find information by accesing the mormon data-base! Now that's zainy.

Actually, I think Israel, oil, WMDs, and Saddam all had very little to do with the war on terror. (Not just Iraq. Terror! The whole quagmire.) I'll tell you the real reason…it was… *disappears from his home that night and all evidence of him is destroyed*

War is a propaganda weapon!

A constant war --> more nationalistic fervor --> more votes for Dubya. WMDs are a clever excuse, and oil a clever outcome. But the real outcome is that America now has an enemy. Just like 1984, but 21 years too late.

Having an enemy is valuable. You can blame world problems on Saddam Hussein and the tsunami on Osama. And I don't see the US going in to help Israel or anyone else. This is my theory.

What's wrong with you people? How can you argue against Israel causing the war in iraq? Don't you all know that the Jews are in control of the planet?
It must be true, it's on every two-bit neo-Nazi site I've ever seen!

:D

Right you are Neo.

The Israelis have done quite a few devious operations in the past in order to get their way... for example, when President Nasser of Egypt was trying to get on the good side of the US in the 50s and 60s, the Israelis bombed... it was either the American embassy or a hotel with a lot of Americans in it, I forget which (I'm too tired right now to get a link... but I'll probably post on up later), and then they set it up to look like the Egyptians did it. So, as a result, we ceased all negotiations with Egypt, and Nasser turned to the Soviet Union for aid... I don't think I need to explain how useful it would be if there was an Islamic country that was behind the US.

That's the one thing I give the Israelis credit for: they'll do whatever it takes to get their way, and they don't take shit from anybody while they're doing it. I just don't like the types of things they do to get their way... which is what I believe they're doing with the US and Iraq.

What's wrong with you people? How can you argue against Israel causing the war in iraq? Don't you all know that the Jews are in control of the planet?
It must be true, it's on every two-bit neo-Nazi site I've ever seen!

:D

Yes, because the Protocols are 100% fact! ;)

The Israelis have done quite a few devious operations in the past in order to get their way... for example, when President Nasser of Egypt was trying to get on the good side of the US in the 50s and 60s, the Israelis bombed... it was either the American embassy or a hotel with a lot of Americans in it, I forget which (I'm too tired right now to get a link... but I'll probably post on up later), and then they set it up to look like the Egyptians did it. So, as a result, we ceased all negotiations with Egypt, and Nasser turned to the Soviet Union for aid... I don't think I need to explain how useful it would be if there was an Islamic country that was behind the US.

That's the one thing I give the Israelis credit for: they'll do whatever it takes to get their way, and they don't take shit from anybody while they're doing it. I just don't like the types of things they do to get their way... which is what I believe they're doing with the US and Iraq.How is Israel involved in the war in Iraq? Has it done anything yet? Did Prime Minister Sharon secretly meet with Bush on a mysterious mountain retreat to arrange for plans to invade Iraq? Or is this all a conspiracy theory?

Vote Czardas, it's the only right way!

How is Israel involved in the war in Iraq? Has it done anything yet? Did Prime Minister Sharon secretly meet with Bush on a mysterious mountain retreat to arrange for plans to invade Iraq? Or is this all a conspiracy theory?

Vote Czardas, it's the only right way!

I'll admit that it is a bit of a conspiracy theory... I don't believe there's any concrete proof about it on the net, but there's a lot of stuff that really does seem to suggest that Israel has something to do with the war.

And if you look at the policies of the Neo-Cons, it is a plausible theory.

I am of the personal belief that this war isn't being fought over oil, or WOMDs, or Bush's own agenda... but rather, we're fighting a war for Israel.

Think about it. The rumor going around is that we'll be going into Syria and Iran next. Syria, Iran, and Iraq are the biggest threats to Israel in the region. The Israeli government is using the United States as a pawn to take out their biggest enemies so they don't have to do it themselves, and since the Jewish lobby holds so much sway over the US government, and everyone is so afraid to speak out against them because they'll be branded as anti-semites, we're too afraid to say no.

Here is my disclaimer: I am not an anti-semite. I do not hate Jews, many of my best friends are Jews. However, I dislike the actions and policies of the government of Israel. I am only saying this because it's the same people who give me the "separation of church and state" stuff that tell me "if you hate Israel, then you hate Jews."
Top two reasons for Iraq invasion:

1. Securing future US oil supplies.

2. Support for Israel, from a strategic position in the Middle East.

I am of the personal belief that this war isn't being fought over oil, or WOMDs, or Bush's own agenda... but rather, we're fighting a war for Israel.

Think about it. The rumor going around is that we'll be going into Syria and Iran next. Syria, Iran, and Iraq are the biggest threats to Israel in the region. The Israeli government is using the United States as a pawn to take out their biggest enemies so they don't have to do it themselves, and since the Jewish lobby holds so much sway over the US government, and everyone is so afraid to speak out against them because they'll be branded as anti-semites, we're too afraid to say no.

Here is my disclaimer: I am not an anti-semite. I do not hate Jews, many of my best friends are Jews. However, I dislike the actions and policies of the government of Israel. I am only saying this because it's the same people who give me the "separation of church and state" stuff that tell me "if you hate Israel, then you hate Jews."


I totally agree with you, however, this war is also about oil, hegemony, strategic military positioning, and Bush's (PNAC'S) agenda.

*Latin for Bush. Also means Blockhead. The Romans were smart :P

The Romans also happen to be the original Republicans and the civilization epitomized conservatism centuries before the "modern" idea came about.

Actually, I think Israel, oil, WMDs, and Saddam all had very little to do with the war on terror. (Not just Iraq. Terror! The whole quagmire.) I'll tell you the real reason…it was… *disappears from his home that night and all evidence of him is destroyed*

War is a propaganda weapon!

A constant war --> more nationalistic fervor --> more votes for Dubya. WMDs are a clever excuse, and oil a clever outcome. But the real outcome is that America now has an enemy. Just like 1984, but 21 years too late.

Having an enemy is valuable. You can blame world problems on Saddam Hussein and the tsunami on Osama. And I don't see the US going in to help Israel or anyone else. This is my theory.

That... that is SO Roman! ;)

"Necessity knows no law except to conquer"

"A bad peace is even worse than war"

"Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war"

The Romans where really fond of war. :D

Oh and one more that seems to be quite on-topic; "In war, truth is the first casualty."

The reference to 1984 is indeed something to think about. Granted, there is a difference. Yet, the concept of always being at a war which really doesn't cost the government that much(granted war is always expensive but some wars more so than others). Look at US patriotism compared to many other countries. I have never heard mainstream singers sing "God bless Sweden"(In Swedish I mean :) ). I believe Macarthur, the famous US commander, said after his career was over that the US government has always claimed to have enemies even when it hasn't.

It is very interesting how good a war can be. The war will not only give the world market more oil(with China's growing demand means that gas prices won't go down though). The US will now have a satellite(unofficially in a debt to the US, like Afghanistan the new leaders will soon say that they wish future military ties with the US).

I don't really believe Israel is a big reason. What alarms me is reactionary Cheney who complained when Powell(a year ago or something) basically said that both sides most compromise. Cheney and other conservative republicans thought Powell was too hostile against Israel.

The US will not be able to invade North Korea. Not only might the nation have nuclear weapons, but China would be mad at an invervention in their own backyard. A little like the US established the Monroe doctrine other countries want the US to stay away from them too. North Korea might after a shift in leadership become more China-friendly. China might also invade North Korea "to restore order" or maybe looking for WMD...

Anti-Semitism has unfortunately become a convenient Get Out of Jail Free copout to the Religious UltraRight who do not feel comfortable having to defend the country's foreign and domestic policies.

The wars are perfect for bin Laden no matter why they’re fought.
For every killed terrorist, 3 new ones appear, it’s a perfect plan.
That is also why there has not been a terrorist attack in the US prior to the election. If the US was attacked before the election, Bush would have lost.
Osama needs those wars to gain support, and it works.

In the next ten years there is going to be a huge attack in the US.
Al-Qaeda is not weakening, but stronger than ever.

Many European nations are leaving the coalition - so there will probably be some attacks on those nations to make them come back.

Indeed. Why don't more people see this connection? Oh yeah, they're called Republicans. If you support the war, it's not your fault that you're stupid. Your God made you that way.

Maybe it isn't that Bush likes Jews and hates Arabs. Maybe Bush just hates Arabs more than he hates Jews, so the Arabs are first on the list. Maybe the Jews will be next, when the current Arab holocaust outshines what we can remember of the Jewish holocaust. The current Bush Administration is already killing plenty of black people in Africa and Asian people in S.E. Asia just by linking aid funding to abstinence only policies. Letting them all die from HIV and dodgy abortions is more economical than dropping bombs on them.

Maybe it isn't that Bush likes Jews and hates Arabs. Maybe Bush just hates Arabs more than he hates Jews, so the Arabs are first on the list. Maybe the Jews will be next, when the current Arab holocaust outshines what we can remember of the Jewish holocaust. The current Bush Administration is already killing plenty of black people in Africa and Asian people in S.E. Asia just by linking aid funding to abstinence only policies. Letting them all die from HIV and dodgy abortions is more economical than dropping bombs on them.

Bush pulled the plug on the AIDS Awareness program in Africa because it wasn't helping, we were basically flushing billions of dollars down the toilet. The only way they can stop the AIDS epidemic over there is by having the Africans change their lifestyles, which they're unwilling to do.

Indeed. Why don't more people see this connection? Oh yeah, they're called Republicans. If you support the war, it's not your fault that you're stupid. Your God made you that way.

I'm not Republican, and I support the war (however, I don't support the reasons for going to war, and I really don't like the way they're carrying it out). I despise what the Republican party has become, even though I'm ideologically conservative.