NationStates Jolt Archive

I have always been fascinated about the beginning of the Universe, where it came from, where it's going and what's beyond it.
I am also a firm believer in the existence of and infinite God, who set the things in motion and to whom ultimately everyting must return.

Now, on the macroskopic level, our scientific understanding of the Universe and its history is somewhat clear and agreed upon, all to the point of the Big Bang. Beyond it science gives us nothing but speculation.
Similar, on the microscopic level we generally understand the origins and correlations of smaller and smaller particles, all to the socalled String theory and its multiple dimensions (lets keep it simple, i'm not here to debate quantum physics, but a broader picture)

Now, since I (and most of our planets population) believe, among other things, in a Omnipotent God, creator of Everything, i was trying to think where we could put this God in our world ruled by Science.

The first notion hit me when I was reading a novel written by H.P. Lovecraft, which I know is purelly fiction, but he had an interesting notion, that if you could travel long enough to reach the center of our Universe, that you would reach Azatoth, an omnipotent entity that created and rulled the Cosmos.

I was thinking, if you could travel long enough to reach the "end" or "outer boundary" of our Universe, would I find God there (by this "outer limit" of the Universe I mean not just Our Universe, but the outer limit of all potential inflationary or alternate or multiple Universes, the limit of Everything we can begin to grasp of)

Sometime later while checking various Creation theories by multiple religions, I stumbled upon a notion that blew me senceless. It is called TzimTzum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzimtzum) and this old, kabbalistic notion of God and the Universe makes so much perfect sense to me that I just had to share my enthusiasm.

To put it simple, Tzimtzum is a part of Kabbalah that says,
quote
God had to "contract" his infinite essence in order to allow for a conceptual "space" in which a finite, independent world could exist.

To put it into context:
AT the beginning, EVERYTHING was God. By that I mean there was no Universe, there was no vacuum, but infinetly everything was God.
At some point, God decided he would make space for SOMETHING, besides himself. Because he was literally everywhere, hed had to contract himself to give room for an empty space, a true vacuum. This act of contraction is called Tzimtzum. God then "poured" some of his essence into this emptyness and this could be what science calls the Big Bang. AFter that, science kicks in.

Tha kabbalah also teaches many interesting things, so I'll just mention them shortly:
-In everything there is a part of God (consequence of his Breath of Life - the Big Bang) Without this presence, nothing would exist. That would explain the notion of God being everywhere, even if he is hidden from us (and like traveling to the end of the Universe, if you could look into those dimensions that are a part of the String theory, would you find God there too?)
-God is intentionally hidden from us (i think we all agree he does a good job a that), since we simply could not survive meeting Him in person . Scientist say, that if you would travel long enough through space in a straight line you would return to the starting point (like we weren't ment to go outside the Universe)

I'm not a Kabbalah follower. I believe in what all the mayor religions teach and regarding their specific rituals and beliefs am completely agnostic. But this notion of God seems so universal, that it can be implemented into every mayor religion in the world as well as the current scientific revelations of the nature of our Universe.

You complain that science gives us nothing but speculation beyond the big bang and then you have the balls to post this? Your post is nothing but speculation. They believe this, maybe that, one might as well guess that pink ponies from beyond created the universe. It has just as much evidence to support it.

nice story, though but the thread's a bit mistitled, its not proof of anything, its not even evidence.

I was thinking, if you could travel long enough to reach the "end" or "outer boundary" of our Universe, would I find God there (by this "outer limit" of the Universe I mean not just Our Universe, but the outer limit of all potential inflationary or alternate or multiple Universes, the limit of Everything we can begin to grasp of)


science does actually have theorys on this...
there is no outer boundary, there is no boundary, the no boundary condition states that space is finite, yet doesn't have a boundary. the dimentions just loop back on themselves, so if you travel in one direction for trillions of lightyears, you will end up back at the same point. think of the earth. where is the earth's boundary? yet, does it have infinite space?

and about the big bang...
The reason that scientists say that there was nothing before the big bang, was that the whole universe was crunched up into an infinitely small ball.(the whole spacetime was warped that much by all the matter in it, that it was warped into one point) and as maths cannnot deal with infinity, then it is pointless trying to predict what was before it, as we cannot know. it wasn't that there wasn't anything, but that we can't tell what there was. but one of the ideas is that the whole universe keeps having big bangs, and then contracting on itself again, making another big bang.

i'm not trying to discredit your beliefs, or even oppose them. i don't agree witht hem but they are yours. i am only trying to point out the current theorys on some of the things that you don't seem to fully understand or know about

sorry if i offended you :rolleyes:

labrat xXx

Proof of God was a bit misleading, but the fact that there was a fully developed theological view of the Creation of the Universe and the concept of God more than 500 years ago and that this concept is compatible with all mayor religions AND that it fits perfectly in todays scientific view of the Universe seems to be more than just a coincidence.

ANd yes, of course I'm quessing now. But since I believe that the religious 80% world population isnt just naive and stupid and since religions amased some knowledge in their 4000 year history, it would be a shame not to look into the possibillity, that they knew something, that we dont.

And to sum up - When you cut through all the scientific bable of what preceded the Big Bang, after you get through alll the previous Universes and their states, you get to the assumption it started Ex Nihilo - From nothing.
Which is the current catholic belief.
Which every scientist will tell you is ridiculous.

I know the most common theories of what was before the Big bang. You talk about the cyclical Universe.
Great.
It fits this notion even perfectly. A cyclical universe would fit perfectly to anyone, who believes in reincarnation.

When saying, that the Big Bang was actually "Gods breath" that gave life into the void he created, you could say that when the Universe starts to contract back to itself, its actually God taking back his "breath" (so the lifespan of the Universe would actually be the duration of Gods Breath)

ANd please, im talking in metaphors here.