NationStates Jolt Archive


Abort the Criminals!

Subterranean_Mole_Men
16-04-2005, 18:41
This is one of the most interesting theories I have ever heard. It is basically that the cities with the highest abortion rates, like New York, are the saftest, because women who are too unstable to properly raise children chose to have abortions rather than spawn criminals and deviants. Since Roe v. Wade occured in the 1970s the would be criminals who were aborted in the 70s never grew up to be criminals in the 1990s explaining the sharp reduction in crime in that decade. It sounds a little fascist, sort of like Eugenics, but apparently aborting unwanted babies may be the greatest tool for crime fighting.
______________________________________________________________
The Miracle That Wasn't
By JOHN TIERNEY

It is an inspirational urban lesson from the 1990's: take back the streets from squeegee men and drug dealers, and violent crime will plummet. But on Thursday evening, the tipping-point theory was looking pretty wobbly itself.

The occasion was a debate in Manhattan before an audience thrilled to be present for a historic occasion: the first showdown between two social-science wonks with books that were ranked second and third on Amazon.com (outsold only by "Harry Potter"). It pitted Malcolm Gladwell, author of "Blink" and "The Tipping Point," against Steven D. Levitt, an economist at the University of Chicago with the new second-place book, "Freakonomics."

Professor Levitt considers the New York crime story to be an urban legend. Yes, he acknowledges, there are tipping points when people suddenly start acting differently, but why did crime drop in so many other cities that weren't using New York's policing techniques? His new book, written with Stephen J. Dubner, concludes that one big reason was simply the longer prison sentences that kept criminals off the streets of New York and other cities.

The prison terms don't explain why crime fell sooner and more sharply in New York than elsewhere, but Professor Levitt accounts for that, too. One reason he cites is that the crack epidemic eased earlier in New York than in other cities. Another, more important, reason is that New York added lots of cops in the early 90's.

But the single most important cause, he says, was an event two decades earlier: the legalization of abortion in New York State in 1970, three years before it was legalized nationally by the Supreme Court.

The result, he maintains, was a huge reduction in the number of children who would have been at greater than average risk of becoming criminals during the 1990's. Growing up as an unwanted child is itself a risk factor, he says, and the women who had abortions were disproportionately likely to be unmarried teenagers with low incomes and poor education - factors that also increase the risk.

It's a theory that doesn't sit well with either liberals or conservatives, and Professor Levitt hastens to add that the reduction in crime is not an argument for encouraging abortion - he personally has mixed feelings on whether abortion should be legal. But he says the correlations are clear: crime declined earlier in the states that had legalized abortion before Roe v. Wade, and it declined more in places with high abortion rates, like New York.

Some criminologists have quarreled with his statistics, but the theory was looking robust at the end of the debate in Manhattan. Mr. Gladwell, while raising what he called a few minor quibbles, seemed mostly persuaded by the numbers.

"My first inclination," he joked at the beginning of his rebuttal, "is to say that everything you just heard from Steven Levitt, even though it contradicts things I have written, is true."

That's my inclination, too, as a less successful exponent of the same theory. (In 1995 I explained the crime decline with my version of the tipping point, the Squeegee Watershed, which became neither a buzzword nor a best seller.) In retrospect, the New York crime story looks like a classic bit of conventional wisdom, as the term was originally defined by John Kenneth Galbraith: an idea that becomes commonly accepted because it is "what the community as a whole or particular audiences find acceptable."

Unlike the abortion theory, which was raised in the 1990's and angrily dismissed, the tipping-point idea jibed reassuringly with everyone's beliefs and needs. Urbanites and politicians welcomed a new reason to crack down on street nuisances. Journalists wanted a saga with heroes. Criminologists and the police loved to see their new strategies having dramatic results.

I still think the police made some difference, and not merely because there were more of them on the streets. The new computerized crime-tracking strategies put new pressure on them.

One veteran cop told me that traditionally only a quarter of the officers had done their jobs, and that the heroic achievement of Commissioner William Bratton and Mayor Rudolph Giuliani had been to get that figure up to 50 percent.

But it now looks as if the good guys did not take back the streets all on their own, and the moral of the story is less about safe streets than safe beliefs. Professor Levitt's abortion theory is not appealing. But the ideas that make us comfortable are the ones to beware.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/16/opinion/16tierney.html?hp
Extradites
16-04-2005, 20:28
Well, it is common knowlege that people in the poorest sections of the commity are usually more inclined to crime because you tend to avoid committing crime unless your needs are poorly met. If you know you are the sort of person who could not raise a child properly, then aborting is the responsible thing to do in my opinion.
Of course, if things worked properly, no one would be as poor as many are today and crinimal behaviour would consequently cease to be a problem all together...
Mt-Tau
16-04-2005, 20:31
That is a interesting theory. I could see how aborting a unwanted child may help in future crime rates in a way. I have seen how some unwanted children are rased: Doing whatever they please, Lack of respect, No care, etc. Too bad really.
Antheridia
16-04-2005, 20:37
no money = no unprotected sex = no need for an abortion

if poor people would be responsible in this sense (which yes, is actually reasonable) there would be no need for them to get abortions. needs should be met before wants...this is the problem with our society.

no unprotected sex also puts a halt to the continuing spread of HIV and HPV through unprotected sex
Drunk commies reborn
16-04-2005, 20:58
Just to be thouough and really take care of the crime problem we should also abort the victims. They're just a temptation that's too good for the criminals to resist.
Czardas
16-04-2005, 21:01
Just to be thouough and really take care of the crime problem we should also abort the victims. They're just a temptation that's too good for the criminals to resist.I think, actually, we should outlaw pregnancy. I don't like abortion very much—it's costly and can harm both the mother and the unborn baby—but without it dozens of criminals might walk the streets! The solution? Prevent the need for abortion! Ban pregnancy now!*

* obviously inspired by the Swimming Pool Control Now! thread ;)
Drunk commies reborn
16-04-2005, 21:04
I think, actually, we should outlaw pregnancy. I don't like abortion very much—it's costly and can harm both the mother and the unborn baby—but without it dozens of criminals might walk the streets! The solution? Prevent the need for abortion! Ban pregnancy now!*

* obviously inspired by the Swimming Pool Control Now! thread ;)
You're on to something there. We need to immediately design realistic "sex bots" to take the place of human sex partners. Then immediately ban any sex between male and female humans. The sex bots can be made to resemble anyone at all. I'm placing my order for a "Thora Birch" model today.
CthulhuFhtagn
16-04-2005, 21:12
I think, actually, we should outlaw pregnancy. I don't like abortion very much—it's costly and can harm both the mother and the unborn baby—
Well duh. That's the whole point. :p
Stop Banning Me Mods
16-04-2005, 21:24
no money = no unprotected sex = no need for an abortion

if poor people would be responsible in this sense (which yes, is actually reasonable) there would be no need for them to get abortions. needs should be met before wants...this is the problem with our society.

no unprotected sex also puts a halt to the continuing spread of HIV and HPV through unprotected sex


People have sex. It is our strongest impulse, so there is no freaking way that abstinence education or abstinence at all will work. Even super-good christian girls who say they will abstain end up fucking and sucking cock in a short time. It just happens. Case in point, a good christian girl I know wanted to wait six months with her BF, she could only wait two weeks (and now she is the ultimate nymphomaniac)

Sex happens, Abstinence is bullshit. No one is committed enough to hold off.
Czardas
16-04-2005, 21:31
Well duh. That's the whole point. :pDon't you recognize a joke when you see one, CthulhuFhtagn?

I suspect that this whole thread is actually a joke… ;)
Czardas
16-04-2005, 21:34
You're on to something there. We need to immediately design realistic "sex bots" to take the place of human sex partners. Then immediately ban any sex between male and female humans. The sex bots can be made to resemble anyone at all. I'm placing my order for a "Thora Birch" model today.True, but it would require random sperm and egg samples from consenting humans in order to have a baby. (Okay, if you don't want to have a baby, you can just not install the gametes and save $100!) However, as in an ideal world, we could just assign everyone two children from women who work as mothers (they are injected with the sperm and have babies), preventing the need for unintentional pregnancy, STDs, abortions, and so on.
CthulhuFhtagn
16-04-2005, 21:34
Don't you recognize a joke when you see one, CthulhuFhtagn?

Don't you? I had the tounge sticking-out emoticon in there, didn't I?
Antheridia
16-04-2005, 22:22
People have sex. It is our strongest impulse, so there is no freaking way that abstinence education or abstinence at all will work. Even super-good christian girls who say they will abstain end up fucking and sucking cock in a short time. It just happens. Case in point, a good christian girl I know wanted to wait six months with her BF, she could only wait two weeks (and now she is the ultimate nymphomaniac)

Sex happens, Abstinence is bullshit. No one is committed enough to hold off.
I didn't say anything about abstinence before marriage or anything like that. I said that people should be responsible enough to not conceive a child if they can't handle one. Abstinence only education isn't good unless it's a personal commitment anyways. If you can't afford condoms, you need to use your time and get a second job instead of having so much sex.

By the way, sex is not your #1 impulse or you would be born wanting to have sex. Ever heard of eating or drinking or using the bathroom?
Drunk commies reborn
16-04-2005, 22:25
I didn't say anything about abstinence before marriage or anything like that. I said that people should be responsible enough to not conceive a child if they can't handle one. Abstinence only education isn't good unless it's a personal commitment anyways. If you can't afford condoms, you need to use your time and get a second job instead of having so much sex.

By the way, sex is not your #1 impulse or you would be born wanting to have sex. Ever heard of eating or drinking or using the bathroom?
The instinct for sex in males can be stronger than the will to live. Men have been known to risk being killed for a chance to fuck some other guy's wife.
Antheridia
16-04-2005, 22:28
The instinct for sex in males can be stronger than the will to live. Men have been known to risk being killed for a chance to fuck some other guy's wife.
It's true that some guys think with their penis more than their head, but that's not true for a lot of guys. I would rather live than have sex, and so would any other guy with an IQ over 120. However, this is completely different for women. I don't know how many women you have been around that are over the age of 16, but they definitely are not in the mood for having sex all the time.
Necome
16-04-2005, 22:36
heyyyyyyyyy.... why dont we just kill everyone so no one can complain ever again?? :confused: ...
Drunk commies reborn
16-04-2005, 22:40
It's true that some guys think with their penis more than their head, but that's not true for a lot of guys. I would rather live than have sex, and so would any other guy with an IQ over 120. However, this is completely different for women. I don't know how many women you have been around that are over the age of 16, but they definitely are not in the mood for having sex all the time.
I've been around a few. I'm 30, and it would be pathetic if I hadn't been around any women over 16. Not to mention probably illegal.

I know women aren't always in the mood for sex, but the point is that sometimes they are. And at a young age boys are always ready to join them.
Ashmoria
16-04-2005, 22:40
did this book go on to show that large cities in areas that didnt allow abortion early didnt have a drop in crime until the 1973 equivalent?

juvenile crime has been dropping for quite a while surely there can be a better look at the issue than just the crime drop in NYC which is affected greatly by change in public policy.

does he even know if "at risk" women have had more abortions than before 1970?

its an interesting theory but im not going to sign onto it before more widespread research has been done.
CthulhuFhtagn
16-04-2005, 22:59
heyyyyyyyyy.... why dont we just kill everyone so no one can complain ever again?? :confused: ...
Okay. We'll start with you.

BANG...thud

Well, that's been taken care of. Back to dinner then.
Czardas
17-04-2005, 04:06
Okay. We'll start with you.

BANG...thud

Well, that's been taken care of. Back to dinner then.*shoots CthulhuFhtagn through his window* Two down, 6,735,302,459 to go! (I'm the self-appointed executor, meaning I get to die last.)