NationStates Jolt Archive

The "Can you die from ugliness" thread gave me an idea.

Andrea Dworkin, who recently assumed room temperature, once said that all heterosexual sex is rape. Does anybody here really agree with that?

not I

not I
Sexist pig

Sexist pig

:p
Don't make me laugh . . . I'm at work.

Actually all sex is rape. Heck even thinking about it is rape. Or talking. In fact, this thread is rape.

I feel raped.

Other than that, no.

What was her reasoning for that?

Seems out of context to me.

Hehe, the other "can you die from ugliness" post was locked.... the moderators were scared, of the opinions coming out, I guess. Goddamit, and it was fun, and moderately intelligent, too...

What was her reasoning for that?

Seems out of context to me.
You know, I've never heard the comment in context, but she was all about sex as dominance and power. I guess the fact that she was a sex worker for a time permanently changed her opinion of men and sex.

You know, I've never heard the comment in context, but she was all about sex as dominance and power. I guess the fact that she was a sex worker for a time permanently changed her opinion of men and sex.

Hmmm, not exactly speaking from a neutral position, is she? Then again, nobody truly does. Very difficult to be neutral/objective in regards to sex. I for one, am COMPLETELY subjective. I am subject to it. I am a slave to sex, this is because I am very, very horny. But this is besides the point.

Hehe, the other "can you die from ugliness" post was locked.... the moderators were scared, of the opinions coming out, I guess. Goddamit, and it was fun, and moderately intelligent, too...

You think moderators are really scared of opinions coming out?

You think moderators are really scared of opinions coming out?

I can't think of any other reason why they locked the thread so early. And some of the stuff there was really heavy. But I suppose since it *was* sexual in nature and... like I said before, boobies are scary.

no its not rape.

DC -TG

As I understand it, (and I am willing to be corrected if wrong) it was locked not because of Dworkin's views on sex but because the OP chose to "dance on her grave" -- to gloat, disparage her and celebrate her death.

no its not rape.

DC -TG
Are you sure? I just checked and I don't have any new TGs.

Perhaps the woman should get a dictionary and look up the word rape.

Perhaps the woman should get a dictionary and look up the word rape.
That would be a neat trick if she could pull it off now.

As I understand it, (and I am willing to be corrected if wrong) it was locked not because of Dworkin's views on sex but because the OP chose to "dance on her grave" -- to gloat, disparage her and celebrate her death.

Yes what Kat said... I figured the manner and tone in which it was presented was why it was locked. Not for its content.

Perhaps the woman should get a dictionary and look up the word rape.

You're right. Screw independent thinking. A dictionnary IS the word of God. That and the Bible. She should have looked at the Bible too. Stupid cow. Didn't Sunday school teach her anything?

I wonder why she believed that women really have no choice BUT to be raped....
Come to think of it, she was quite the contradictory lady, wasn't she?

You're right. Screw independent thinking. A dictionnary IS the word of God. That and the Bible. She should have looked at the Bible too. Stupid cow. Didn't Sunday school teach her anything?

I wonder why she believe that women really have no choice BUT to be raped....
Come to think of it, she was quite the contradictory lady, wasn't she?

Human intellect allows us to come up with all kinds of crazy stuff and our imaginations allow us to rationalize everything.
Isn't that a great human quality?

Perhaps the woman should get a dictionary and look up the word rape.

Reading through the article, my interpretation is that she didn't literally mean 'all sex is rape'.



Her use of the R-word upset people of both sexes, who interpreted her basic premise to be that “all men are rapists”. What she was actually pointing to was the fact that throughout the mammalian world penetration is synonymous with domination; the penetrated individual, whether male or female, must lose status. To be feminised is to be degraded, no matter what the context.
link (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1072-1568220,00.html)

I'm not familiar with her work, but this suggests to me that she meant something more along the lines of 'all sex is domination'.

You're right. Screw independent thinking. A dictionnary IS the word of God. That and the Bible. She should have looked at the Bible too. Stupid cow. Didn't Sunday school teach her anything?

I wonder why she believed that women really have no choice BUT to be raped....
Come to think of it, she was quite the contradictory lady, wasn't she?

...how did the Bible come into this? and why so hostile?

Rape is rape.

Sex is sex.

Peanut Butter is Peanut Butter.

Sex without consent (of everyone who is involved) is rape - with consent, not.

...how did the Bible come into this? and why so hostile?
I think [s]he objects to the view that dictionaries are unbiased and/or infallible and/or accurate.

It is a common fallacy to assert that it was Dworkin's view that all sex is rape.

This webpage (http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/LieDetect.html) corrects many untruths about Dworkin:

Andrea Dworkin believes that all intercourse is rape.

FALSE. She has never said this. She sets the record straight in a 1995 interview with British novelist Michael Moorcock (http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MoorcockInterview.html). And in a new preface to the tenth-anniversary edition of Intercourse (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684832399/ref=ase_theandreadworkinA/103-0345811-1703011?v=glance&s=books) (1997), Andrea explains why she believes this book continues to be misread:

If one's sexual experience has always and without exception been based on dominance--not only overt acts but also metaphysical and ontological assumptions--how can one read this book? The end of male dominance would mean--in the understanding of such a man--the end of sex. If one has eroticized a differential in power that allows for force as a natural and inevitable part of intercourse, how could one understand that this book does not say that all men are rapists or that all intercourse is rape? Equality in the realm of sex is an antisexual idea if sex requires domination in order to register as sensation. As sad as I am to say it, the limits of the old Adam--and the material power he still has, especially in publishing and media--have set limits on the public discourse (by both men and women) about this book [pages ix-x].

Here is a relevant quote from that interview with Moorcock:

Michael Moorcock: After "Right-Wing Women" and "Ice and Fire" you wrote "Intercourse". Another book which helped me clarify confusions about my own sexual relationships. You argue that attitudes to conventional sexual intercourse enshrine and perpetuate sexual inequality. Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?

Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse--it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.

The whole issue of intercourse as this culture's penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the "all sex is rape" slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don't think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.

It's important to say, too, that the pornographers, especially Playboy, have published the "all sex is rape" slander repeatedly over the years, and it's been taken up by others like Time who, when challenged, cannot cite a source in my work.

There is much of Dworkin's work I disagree with, and I cannot say I have read any of it recently enough to either critique or defend it.

But let's do keep the record straight.

You're right. Screw independent thinking. A dictionnary IS the word of God. That and the Bible. She should have looked at the Bible too. Stupid cow. Didn't Sunday school teach her anything?

I wonder why she believed that women really have no choice BUT to be raped....
Come to think of it, she was quite the contradictory lady, wasn't she?

I wouldn't go so far as to call her a 'Lady'. She's one of those 'Feminists' from the eighties that tried to rewrite "Woman" to "Wommon", and "Women" to "Wemyn"- the fanatics that probably set back the gains feminism made in the 1970's a full generation among the common population. Every culture and subculture has its extreme-fringe, I actually (for a while) thought HerPower was a Dworkinite, and serious. (I've had the misfortune of reading some of Ms. Dworkin's work for a class. The Prof did NOT like what I had to say about it.)
Dworkin helped create the negative stereotypes about Lesbians being smelly, fat, butch girls who hate men, and blame men for all their suffering and problems.

But let's do keep the record straight.
No thanks. I'd rather slander her. She advocated censoring porn. That's an attack on one of the things I hold most holy.

I can't think of any other reason why they locked the thread so early. And some of the stuff there was really heavy. But I suppose since it *was* sexual in nature and... like I said before, boobies are scary.
The reason was clearly stated in the last post.

No thanks. I'd rather slander her. She advocated censoring porn. That's an attack on one of the things I hold most holy.

I can see red blooded males have a reason to storm that form of the Bastille.

the world has changed so much since andrea dworkin started writing. things that used to be taken for granted, like that it is impossible for a husband to rape his wife, are considered obviously wrong now. its hard to judge her words from 30 years ago by todays standards. everything is different now.

or is it? when a young woman accused kobe bryant of rape, how many men immediately said it was impossible because she went to his room willingly?

how many of us wonder just how much "choice" a prostitute or pornstar has?

how many of us worry about the wholesale abortion of female fetuses in india and china?

how many of us worry about the 3rd world children sold into prostitution only to end up dying of aids before age 20?

sure she was radical. she didnt take shit from anyone. she spoke harshly to wake women up to the realities of the rest of the world. for her, one womans subjugation was every womans subjugation

I am going to ask you to remember that as long as a woman is being bought and sold anywhere in the world, you are not free, nor are you safe. You too have a number; some day your turn will come. I'm going to ask you to remember the prostituted, the homeless, the battered, the raped, the tortured, the murdered, the raped-then-murdered, the murdered-then-raped; and I am going to ask you to remember the photographed, the ones that any or all of the above happened to and it was photographed and now the photographs are for sale in our free countries. I want you to think about those who have been hurt for the fun, the entertainment, the so-called speech of others; those who have been hurt for profit, for the financial benefit of pimps and entrepreneurs. I want you to remember the perpetrator and I am going to ask you to remember the victims: not just tonight but tomorrow and the next day. I want you to find a way to include them - the perpetrators and the victims - in what you do, how you think, how you act, what you care about, what your life means to you.


she made you uncomfortable in order to make you THINK.

may she rest in peace.

the world has changed so much since andrea dworkin started writing. things that used to be taken for granted, like that it is impossible for a husband to rape his wife, are considered obviously wrong now. its hard to judge her words from 30 years ago by todays standards. everything is different now.

or is it? when a young woman accused kobe bryant of rape, how many men immediately said it was impossible because she went to his room willingly?

how many of us wonder just how much "choice" a prostitute or pornstar has?

how many of us worry about the wholesale abortion of female fetuses in india and china?

how many of us worry about the 3rd world children sold into prostitution only to end up dying of aids before age 20?

sure she was radical. she didnt take shit from anyone. she spoke harshly to wake women up to the realities of the rest of the world. for her, one womans subjugation was every womans subjugation


she made you uncomfortable in order to make you THINK.

may she rest in peace.

Amen.

the world has changed so much since andrea dworkin started writing. things that used to be taken for granted, like that it is impossible for a husband to rape his wife, are considered obviously wrong now. its hard to judge her words from 30 years ago by todays standards. everything is different now.

or is it? when a young woman accused kobe bryant of rape, how many men immediately said it was impossible because she went to his room willingly?

how many of us wonder just how much "choice" a prostitute or pornstar has?

how many of us worry about the wholesale abortion of female fetuses in india and china?

how many of us worry about the 3rd world children sold into prostitution only to end up dying of aids before age 20?

sure she was radical. she didnt take shit from anyone. she spoke harshly to wake women up to the realities of the rest of the world. for her, one womans subjugation was every womans subjugation


she made you uncomfortable in order to make you THINK.

may she rest in peace.
1 I actually thought he was probably guilty.

2 There's always a choice. Prostitution and porn are just jobs. There are other ones out there.

3 The only concern I have over mass abortions of female fetuses is that it will cause problems in those societies when the overwhelmingly male generation of babies start looking for wives and girlfriends.

4 Nobody in his right mind condones the sale of children into prostitution.

Maybe she was radical because she was an angry, man-hating, sexist pig.
What she said and how she said it actually set back the cause of women's rights because when people think feminist today they think of that crazy Dworkin broad.

uh in what way have women's rights been set back? from where i sit its been a splendid success so far. sure there is more to be done but mostly in the areas that dworkin was still worried about.

I can see red blooded males have a reason to storm that form of the Bastille.

*grabs pitchfork, torch, lasso to pull her off her high horse, and my favorite grave-dancing boots*

Liberte! Egalite! Pornographie!



This is the first I've heard of her death though...

Score:

Equality and Harmony - 1
Feminazism - 0

Perhaps in death she will have found the peace she refused to those of my gender during her life.

*grabs pitchfork, torch, lasso to pull her off her high horse, and my favorite grave-dancing boots*

*snip*

This is the first I've heard of her death though...

Score:

Equality and Harmony - 1
Feminazism - 0

Perhaps in death she will have found the peace she refused to those of my gender during her life.

Insulting the recently deceased is uncalled for and inappropriate.

uh in what way have women's rights been set back? from where i sit its been a splendid success so far. sure there is more to be done but mostly in the areas that dworkin was still worried about.
Ask the majority of US voters what they think of feminists and they'll give you an exagerrated description of Dworkin. It makes anyone who fights for sex equality look bad by association.

Ask the majority of US voters what they think of feminists and they'll give you an exagerrated description of Dworkin. It makes anyone who fights for sex equality look bad by association.

And the fact that anti-feminist have villified their opponents is Dworkin's fault?

That others, including you, perpetuate myths about what she said is her fault?

Talk about blaming the victim. :rolleyes:

As I understand it, (and I am willing to be corrected if wrong) it was locked not because of Dworkin's views on sex but because the OP chose to "dance on her grave" -- to gloat, disparage her and celebrate her death.

Actually, no, I didn't gloat that she was dead, nor did I "dance on her grave." I gave my own opinions of her, as well as some things that are little known: Like her longtime friendship with (and almost 'fanboy' adoration of) Micheal Moorcock, or the fact that she was married; despite her very public views about the very inequity inherent in such a relationship. (She did characterize it as license to rape &ct.)

The former, particularly is at odds with her public persona, and tends to show that she is a hypocrite in her academic dealings, and probably doesn't deserve a great deal of the respect she garnered in left wing circles.

I also invited others to comment, and give their point of view. At no time did I say I was glad that she was dead, or that she deserved it, or that she had it coming.

Rape is rape.

Sex is sex.

Peanut Butter is Peanut Butter.

Sex without consent (of everyone who is involved) is rape - with consent, not.


Sex that includes peanut butter is kinky, tasty and good. :)

Ask the majority of US voters what they think of feminists and they'll give you an exagerrated description of Dworkin. It makes anyone who fights for sex equality look bad by association.
interesting
and yet
women are more than 50% of all college students
they are more than 50% of all law school students
they work in any and all professions, professions that 30 years ago only the most outstanding woman could even try for.

we are free to marry or not, have children or not, work in or outside the home. we have our own money, our own credit, our own cars our own lives.

men no longer expect their wives to be unpaid servants. men no longer expect to be the sole support of their families, men no longer consider taking care of their own children to be babysitting. men even know how to do their own laundry!

we may THINK that feminism is a dirty word but by the standards of 30 years ago when she started writing, we are ALL feminists.

not much of a set-back in my mind.

The problem is when you say something like this:


Male-dominant gender hierarchy, however, seems immune to reform by reasoned or visionary argument or by changes in sexual styles, either personal or social. This may be because intercourse itself is immune to reform. In it, female is bottom, stigmatized. Intercourse remains a means or the means of physiologically making a woman inferior: communicating to her cell by cell her own inferior status, impressing it on her, burning it into her by shoving it into her, over and over, pushing and thrusting until she gives up and gives in— which is called surrender in the male lexicon. In the experience of intercourse, she loses the capacity for integrity because her body—the basis of privacy and freedom in the material world for all human beings—is entered and occupied; the boundaries of her physical body are—neutrally speaking— violated. What is taken from her in that act is not recoverable, and she spends her life—wanting, after all, to have something—pretending that pleasure is in being reduced through intercourse to insignificance.

— Andrea Dworkin, Intercourse, chapter 7

Insulting the recently deceased is uncalled for and inappropriate.

So we shouldnt insult her just because shes dead? So what? If you dont like someone in life you're not going to change your mind just because they died.

The problem is when you say something like this:
kinda makes you wonder about her sex life doesnt it?

im not saying that i agree with everything she ever wrote. she was much too extreme for that. besides there is no one i totally agree with, not even myself every day.

ive often wondered if she ever came up with a more egalitarian viewpoint. that blind view of sex as incompatible with the female self is just so wrong that i cant imagine her ever having a successful sexual relationship.

geez she was only 58. she should have had many more years of making people insanely angry left.

I realise this might come off a bit immature, but I'm being serious, how did she propose humans procreate with sex being male domination?

Or did she not think it was possible?

I realise this might come off a bit immature, but I'm being serious, how did she propose humans procreate with sex being male domination?

Or did she not think it was possible?

Honestly, I think she was a very twisted individual. She later retracted - or "explained" her statments in woman hater and intercourse by saying something along the lines of they were an indictment of the patriarchal construction of the male/female relationship and not a criticism of sex per se. I am not convinced by that however. I think she knew exactly what she was saying at the time, and it was a transparent effort to be controversial - and thus gain noteriety.

What is most telling about Dworkin* however, is her friendship with Micheal Moorcock. Moorcock's novels can be best described as mediocre fantasy, usually revolving around a heroic male figure and his 'magic sword'. Now I am no freudian, but if I were - as Dworkin was - I would imagine the implication is clear. In other words, her public disavowal of the traditional male patriarchy and its social constructs is at completely at odds with her rather poor choice in literature and friends who continue to perpetuate these stereotypes. Frankly I find that rather odd.

And so, at the end of the day I choose to view dworkin as a cynical manipulator who made a living out of being more radical than the most radical when radicalism was chic. But I am not here to 'explode' any myths. I think the London Book Review said it best when they described her as "fat and ugly."

*And let us not forget her marriage - as an openly lesbian woman who had eschewed hetrosexual sex to an openly gay man. Yet another attempt to be controversial (or perhaps the pair were pulling a fast one). By the time she did this however, no-one cared.