NationStates Jolt Archive

I wanted to know what other people thought about retaliation: is it right or wrong?
Obviously your views will vary depending on your background/religion/level of conscience, but I figure the core arguments are:

For - Someone has hurt you so you have the "right" to hurt them back (this can apply to mental or physical or whatever type of pain).

Against - Two wrongs don't make a right, they just make things worse.

And also, for comic value:
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

Personally, as a "pacifist" I try to avoid retaliation in whatever form. However, I can't help but find myself sounding hypocritical when I try to dissuade others from retaliating when they are hurt.

So, debate away. or leave me lookin' stupid. Either way, have fun :)

Personally, I'm against it, but for a purely selfish reason. if I was to retaliate against someone, I'd feel guilty for it. So I'd much rather let the law handle it and spare myself the needless guilt. ack... such a short statement.
ah well.

Retaliation is about revenge, so no, I'm not for it. It solves nothing, and it doesn't even necessarily guarantee you satisfaction.

Restitution, whereby someone is forced to some how 'make it up' to their victim or their victim's family, I am for.

retaliation is wrong, imho. it achieves nothing and often only serves to escalate the issue.

i'm something of a pacifist and have been reading up on this issue a little recently: Satyagraha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyagraha), Mahatma Gandhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi) (my hero), Nonviolence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-violence) if anyone's interested :)


edit: imo, violence = bad, in general, too

I voted right, but I don't think it's always right. Sometimes it's justified as a warning to whoever wronged you and anyone else who might be considering following his example. Sometimes retaliation is counter productive though. It's really something to be decided on a case by case basis.

If someone hurt my children or a loved one, I'd find it hard not to strike them down dead on the spot.

If someone hurt my children or a loved one, I'd find it hard not to strike them down dead on the spot.
But would you?

But would you?



Knowing how I am about children......if someone forced themselves into my house and began raping or beating my children....I would most likely get a knife and come up behind them and cut their throat. I say that because thats what kind of rage that kind of senario would invoke in me. Of course who knows how the real situation would go down? Would I be calm enough to actual go into the kitchen to get the knife, would I be tied up and helpless to defend my children?

...yes I would kill someone if they were in my house harming my kids. If they lived to see another day, they may do the same thing to another child.

What about if someone killed your family, surely you should be allowed to hurt them back?

Knowing how I am about children......if someone forced themselves into my house and began raping or beating my children....I would most likely get a knife and come up behind them and cut their throat. I say that because thats what kind of rage that kind of senario would invoke in me. Of course who knows how the real situation would go down? Would I be calm enough to actual go into the kitchen to get the knife, would I be tied up and helpless to defend my children?

...yes I would kill someone if they were in my house harming my kids. If they lived to see another day, they may do the same thing to another child.
That's the right attitude to have. Some lines can't be crossed without forfeiting one's life. A person who willfully harms children is lower than any form of life and needs to be exterminated.

There are two justifications for retaliation that I find acceptable.

1. Peechland's. The emotional response to harm being done to those you love and cherish. It does not have to be children, it can be parents, siblings, spouses, team mates etc. What is significant is that it is an emotional response, not a cold planed action. The plaqnned murder of someone who insulted your brother ten years ago is not justified, the killing of someone in the act of abusing your child, to my mind, is completely justified. (It is not murder nor manslaughter as these apply to the unlawful killing of humans.)

2. Excessive provocation. If someone keeps hitting you, and will not stop doing so, despite being asked not to, told not and warned not to, then let them have it. The same with other provocations. Where they are incessant and excessive then retaliation may be the only way to stop them.

a potentially unpopular viewpoint, but if someone were to harm/kill my family i would hope i had the resolve not to lower myself to their level and kill the culprit. i would of course retaliate to stop the intruder from doing further harm, aiming to render them unconcious, but certainly not dead. if i were to come in and find my family dead and the culprit still there, i would again hope i would have the resolve to stop them from escaping but not to kill them (no matter what my emotional state may be). the law can do with him/her what they want, but it's not my decision who lives and who dies.

a potentially unpopular viewpoint, but if someone were to harm/kill my family i would hope i had the resolve not to lower myself to their level and kill the culprit. i would of course retaliate to stop the intruder from doing further harm, aiming to render them unconcious, but certainly not dead. if i were to come in and find my family dead and the culprit still there, i would again hope i would have the resolve to stop them from escaping but not to kill them (no matter what my emotional state may be). the law can do with him/her what they want, but it's not my decision who lives and who dies.

wait til you have children .....your view may change. (not being argumentative PM...just commenting :)

wait til you have children .....your view may change. (not being argumentative PM...just commenting :)
yeah i was thinking of that, but i would still hope i'd be able to look past the rage & emotion to do what i think is morally right (being a pacifist and all :) )

in general, i think retaliation is wrong, but then i guess in real life situations, it's more complex than that. Does retaliation necessary equate with violence?

In this modern day and age.. retaliation.. Usually you should let the state handle that.

Nevertheless, Justice has to be served.

But it's situational, I won't take things into my own hands. It can get too messy. And sometimes it's just now worth it.

We all have certain rights, things like life, liberty and property, that come from the basis of our being human. But people don't always respect those rights, so they steal, assault and kill.

When another person robs or attacks you, they surrender certain rights that they have as a human being, thus making retaliation just.

I also believe that one has a right to defend oneself against attacks against oneself, for similar reasons to the ones listed, but also due to the necessity of self-preservation.

I wanted to know what other people thought about retaliation: is it right or wrong?
Obviously your views will vary depending on your background/religion/level of conscience, but I figure the core arguments are:

For - Someone has hurt you so you have the "right" to hurt them back (this can apply to mental or physical or whatever type of pain).

Against - Two wrongs don't make a right, they just make things worse.

And also, for comic value:
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.

Personally, as a "pacifist" I try to avoid retaliation in whatever form. However, I can't help but find myself sounding hypocritical when I try to dissuade others from retaliating when they are hurt.

So, debate away. or leave me lookin' stupid. Either way, have fun :)
I agree, right up to the point where someone harms my family. Then ALL the bets are off!

... but it's not my decision who lives and who dies.
I like that.
I don't think that anyone has the right to take life - be it their own life or someone elses. I'm still very much in the grey about Euthenasia - the only exception - but I think I'm even against that.

I'm for it, though I must say that I have always had a bit of a vigilante instinct for this type of thing.

Peech here, has the right idea. The Human emotion known as rage has a VERY valid place in life. I truly pity the man that in his moment of truth would be compelled to fight his own humanity for some idiotic self-defeating idea like pacifism while the lives he loves are being stolen.

Perhaps some of you should consider how exactly you would live with yourself after failing yourself and those you love so utterly.

Well, the problem with retaliation is that it can degenerate into vigilanteism very easily. For example; if killing pedophiles is deemed justified (In my eyes it completely is.), then we'll see people being shot down for it. The problem though, is that we will also see people being shot down for being accused of it. =/

There's a big difference between retribution and self-defence or the defence of one's family, I'd point out. You come in and find your wife being raped, I challenge you not to use any and every weapon you have to hand. But if he gets away and later gets arrested, that's another matter, because you're not trying to drive him off or protect someone in immediate danger.

I like that.
I don't think that anyone has the right to take life - be it their own life or someone elses. I'm still very much in the grey about Euthenasia - the only exception - but I think I'm even against that.
ah well thats where we differ. as far as i'm concerned one's own life is one's own business - if i choose to end it, that's my decision. i am not against suicide, nor (voluntary) euthanasia

Well, the problem with retaliation is that it can degenerate into vigilanteism very easily. For example; if killing pedophiles is deemed justified (In my eyes it completely is.), then we'll see people being shot down for it. The problem though, is that we will also see people being shot down for being accused of it. =/

There's a big difference between retribution and self-defence or the defence of one's family, I'd point out. You come in and find your wife being raped, I challenge you not to use any and every weapon you have to hand. But if he gets away and later gets arrested, that's another matter, because you're not trying to drive him off or protect someone in immediate danger.
I agree completely. Your second paragraph explains why I'm in favor of guns for self defense, and why I oppose the death penalty.

ah well thats where we differ. as far as i'm concerned one's own life is one's own business - if i choose to end it, that's my decision. i am not against suicide, nor (voluntary) euthanasia

I hope I never become indifferent like that. Someone wants to commit suicide? Just shrug and say who cares it's their choice?

I'm not going to comment on situations where you're right there as the initial attack is occuring.

However, in situations where retaliation is after-the-fact.... One of the problems of people taking the law into their own hands after-the-fact is that ordinary citizens are not police investigators; vigilantes sometimes pin the blame on the wrong person and wind up exacting vengeance on an innocent person.

This reminds me of a story (which might have been posted here on NationStates) where a pediatricians office was vandalized by vigilantes because said vigilantes had the words pediatrician and pedophile confused.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."

I hope I never become indifferent like that. Someone wants to commit suicide? Just shrug and say who cares it's their choice?
its not a shrug, its a decision to allow them control of the one fundamental thing that cannot be controlled. if somebody really wants to commit suicide, making it illegal isn't going to help much - if they want to die they will find a way to do it. i'm all for increased funding on prevention courses, extra training and psychiatric help (to name but a few preventative measures against suicide), but i ultimatley think that there is nothing the state can do. i mean, what good is saying 'what you just did was illegal' to somebody who is dead?
i suppose you could build financial rules into suicide prevention - kill youself and your family will be fined £50,000 or something, but i just thought of that and don't know if i'm for or against it yet :p

I hope I never become indifferent like that. Someone wants to commit suicide? Just shrug and say who cares it's their choice?

For me I'd say suicide is a terrible thing and in an ideal world would not exist and should be prevented if possible but in the end it is their choice and I can't judge them. It's more not judging them then not caring in my case.

About the subject at hand I'd have to agree with Unistates second paragraph about retribution and self defence, Alien Borns two examples where it's justified and what Drunk Commies said about it being taken on a case to case basis.

I believe retaliation is wrong. I cherish all life and it pains me to see it injured in any way.
That being said, there are elements of a society that are threatening...and they need to be dealt with in order to save the whole.

<snip>

This reminds me of a story (which might have been posted here on NationStates) where a pediatricians office was vandalized by vigilantes because said vigilantes had the words pediatrician and pedophile confused.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
So the pedophile office down the street is still operating?

How dumb were the vigilantes to think that pedophiles have clearly marked offices and abuse children by appointment?

its not a shrug, its a decision to allow them control of the one fundamental thing that cannot be controlled. if somebody really wants to commit suicide, making it illegal isn't going to help much - if they want to die they will find a way to do it. i'm all for increased funding on prevention courses, extra training and psychiatric help (to name but a few preventative measures against suicide), but i ultimatley think that there is nothing the state can do. i mean, what good is saying 'what you just did was illegal' to somebody who is dead?
i suppose you could build financial rules into suicide prevention - kill youself and your family will be fined £50,000 or something, but i just thought of that and don't know if i'm for or against it yet :p

I'd like to think if I ever become so depressed that I'd contemplate suicide that someone would try to stop me. Indifference certainly isn't going to help a person. Obviously simply making it illegal isn't going to do a thing so there needs to be a more personal involvement in stopping it.

So i am for retaliation, just because i haven't been raised to bend over and take it. So I won't, if someone enters my home and i feel they are a threat, they can expect a gun in their face. and i am sure i will feel even more strongly about this when i have a family.

AS much as i would love to just let the government step in and do it's duty, more often than not, they don't. There's just not enough man power or resources to get all the bad guys, so i believe you have to take up for yourself.

I don't think i would ever kill anyone, (at least not on purpose, but i am a pretty good shot, so i think i am good) but I would definately shoot to handicap. Then I would call the ambulance and police. I am not heartless, just prepared. and i refuse to be taken advantage of, especially since, i am a short, petite blonde girl (woman i guess i am 20 but that sounds wierd) people tend to think i am stupid and defenseless.

Personally, I would have few qualms about killing somebody who attempted to kill me, regardless of what laws are in place. I would rather spend time in prison because I defended myself than sit around and get assailed by some mugger or murderer.

Of course, vigilantism is also a bad way to go, and you should be able to be a pacifist if you like - the police should still step in and teach your attacker a lesson. However, you certainly shouldn't be punished if the police weren't there and you were in a fight-or-die situation.

I voted that retaliation is right.

I hope I never become indifferent like that. Someone wants to commit suicide? Just shrug and say who cares it's their choice? I wouldn't shrug. I wouldn't say 'Who cares'. But it is their choice.

I would rather spend time in prison because I defended myself than sit around and get assailed by some mugger or murderer.
I hear ya there...

I'd say that if somebody hits me, I therefore have the right to retaliate, but I don't think it's nessecarily RIGHT for me to do so.

ah well thats where we differ. as far as i'm concerned one's own life is one's own business - if i choose to end it, that's my decision. i am not against suicide, nor (voluntary) euthanasia
I think that people who take their own lives (in the context of suicide, not Euthenasia) are depriving others of a friend, a lover, a relative or whatever. Therefore I don't think it's right. If one of my friends wanted to commit suicide, I would try and stop them.
The tricky bit is if you don't have any friends... I'd like to think that even then someone would feel berieved.
And then there is the "broken life" scenario - if someone is so messed up that it seems easiest to end it all. That's where I get muddled, because ideally I would still say don't do it. However, if they are in mental/emotional pain then this could lead to another sort of Euthenasia - which is why I'm uncertain about the whole business.
Anyway, that's completely off topic...

So i am for retaliation, just because i haven't been raised to bend over and take it. So I won't, if someone enters my home and i feel they are a threat, they can expect a gun in their face. and i am sure i will feel even more strongly about this when i have a family.

AS much as i would love to just let the government step in and do it's duty, more often than not, they don't. There's just not enough man power or resources to get all the bad guys, so i believe you have to take up for yourself.

I don't think i would ever kill anyone, (at least not on purpose, but i am a pretty good shot, so i think i am good) but I would definately shoot to handicap. Then I would call the ambulance and police. I am not heartless, just prepared. and i refuse to be taken advantage of, especially since, i am a short, petite blonde girl (woman i guess i am 20 but that sounds wierd) people tend to think i am stupid and defenseless.

Yes, you ARE from Texas. Well now there's a surprise.