NationStates Jolt Archive

There's a Bible Studies club at my school, where you can "study the Bible, learn about the whole God thing, or just hang around with other Christians", as according to the morning announcements. I want to know if this is legal in America, what with the whole separation of church and state thing, so I could potentially shut it down. I don't particularly think that they should get away with having a religious club that belongs at a church to be set up on a state-operated school. Considering the fact that it's probably paid for with school club funds (although I'm not sure), plus they might have a teacher or two involved (again, not sure, but possible), there's a good chance that if I confront the school administration, then (if need be) go to the District and the State, I could shut down this religious club on school campus. Feel free to comment or help me out.

Personally, I think your actions would be totally un-necessary and counter productive, but you didn't ask for my opinion on that.

There is no way you'll get it shut down, because it's a club. Just like you can't get the chess club shut down, you can't get the church club shut down. Because attendance is not mandatory, it doesn't really count, methinks.

While I support the disbanding of religion, I don't think you can do anything. It's an optional club, and not anything they are forcing on you. And the whole seperation between church and state is, to say the least, very much a misconception.

aye, that's what i had considered. I'd still like to see how far i can go with this, though. There's no representation for other religions, etc.

So long as it is not part of the curriculum I dion't think you can or should be able to do anything.

They want to bother god on their own time, let them.

They believe and you don't, don't force your values on others.

The group has a right to assemble, just like any other extracurricular, the Gay Straight Alliance being an example. If it was mandatory bible study, that would be different, but because you are given the option whether or not to go, you can be tolerant and just not go. Just because someone reads the Bible doesn't mean they can't meet as a group. It is really intolerant to say that one group can meet but another cannot.

But why would you want to shut them down? I think you should let them have their club IMHO. If there are a group of people interested in something, or share something in common why not let them form a club? It's not like they force people to join... I think if gay people can have a club, sports people can have a club, bookish people can have a club, then why not religious people?

America used to be a country where everyone can practice their religion where ever, now no one can.

Create a 'secular club' for atheists and other non-religious persons.

yeah, i came here first to gather N.S.ers' opinions on whether or not i could do this. I'd like to see somebody present some of the legal stuff assosciated with it all, but that's just me.

nice first post, by the way.

aye, that's what i had considered. I'd still like to see how far i can go with this, though. There's no representation for other religions, etc.

I'd certainly support you if you pushed for representation of other religions, but again, it's up to someone of that religion to set it up, surely? If nobody chooses to, then you can't then ask for the christian one to be shut down... But yes, there should be a corresponding religious club to everyone who wants one, and an athiest club, should they feel the need to get together and disbelieve.


(for the record, I'm someone between agnostic and spiritual, not a follower of any organised religion. But I'm all for them if peeps want them.)

aye, that's what i had considered. I'd still like to see how far i can go with this, though. There's no representation for other religions, etc.

But other religions are free to start clubs dedicated to their own study.

So long as it is not in a classroom setting, forced upon every student regardless of willingness, funded by school funds (and not funds raised by the group on school grounds; different things), or endorsed by school officials (in an official capacity), then there's nothing violating any supposed seperation of church and state. From the way you described it, it is just a group of students who meet after school to study the Bible. So long as it remains a voluntary group who meets after school hours, there's nothing inherently wrong with it.

A voluntary club has no 'separation of church and state' implications.

Don't disband them. It'll just group together the perfect bunch for all the disaffected outcast kids to single out when they go Columbine, just like in Tennessee. Or was it Oregon? I forgot.

Thanks for the props on my first post here, I'm looking to find a solid crew to start a region with to roleplay but I haven't been able to find a good way in yet, even after reading probably 90 pages of roleplay-esque threads.

Anywho....

It sounds like you have issues with Christianity as a faith as opposed to "spirituality" in general, were you forced to go to church when you were younger?

If so, have you ever considered asking the Bible Study why they willingly study the Bible?

Just Curious....

How about you try to form a club where you discuss atheist philosophers and if they don't allow that, then you can raise a stink about preferential treatment of christianity.

At my school, they theoretically allow any religious club, there are like 30 christian groups, but not a single atheist group (I want to found an atheist/agnostic group next year, if there are enough agnostics, then it will just be an agnostic one...) so it could be that the christian group exists because there's a demand for it, but there isn't the demand, or drive to form an atheist club.

In Australian public schools, primary and sometimes secondary (if they can get somebody to do it) have a scripture class. It's fucking ridiculous. My little sister comes home crapping on about creationism and Jesus and shit, and we're an athiest family. Can you believe that in YEAR 10 my parents had to write a note to the school excluding me from scripture? They have no fucking right to inflict religious beliefs on children in public schools.... Christ it makes me mad.
My little sister has to complete homework on the great flood and all that bullshit. I feel like going into the school and strangling her fucked in the head teacher.

You have it lucky in the U.S., who cares if a group of christians have a little group outside of school time? even if it is in school hours.

In Australian public schools, primary and sometimes secondary (if they can get somebody to do it) have a scripture class. It's fucking ridiculous. My little sister comes home crapping on about creationism and Jesus and shit, and we're an athiest family. Can you believe that in YEAR 10 my parents had to write a note to the school excluding me from scripture? They have no fucking right to inflict religious beliefs on children in public schools.... Christ it makes me mad.
My little sister has to complete homework on the great flood and all that bullshit. I feel like going into the school and strangling her fucked in the head teacher.

You have it lucky in the U.S., who cares if a group of christians have a little group outside of school time? even if it is in school hours.

Thwack on the pedantry mode for a second.... what I bolded. Just a joke though.

Seriously now... if that's the case, that's really quite bad. In Britain we had religious education, and it wasn't represented as fact, and it was equal to all religions and religious philosophys we discussed *I forget ALL of them now, but safe to say all the major ones*... I'm sad to see that a purely christian religious class is taught to the exlusion of others.

You are not being forced to join this group. STOP COMPLAINING! This is getting me seriously disgusted. If you don;t like it, then ignore it! I don't care what religion you are, and I don't care what your group is doing after school. I don't care if they're doing lines of coke in that classroom, it's totally irrelevent!

The easiest legal way to get it shut down if it was started by the administration instead of students, changes the complexition from students freely exercising their religion to state (school administrators/teachers) encouraging a specific religion. Even this will fail if the group is not oriented as you present it but instead is focused solely on analysis of the Christian Bible as a historical or literary work.

The alternative is to convince the school board to prohibit all non-academic groups from meeting on school property, but this might upset the football team. Actaully you could probably exempt academic and athletic groups, and keep the hockey players happy - but then you are getting rid of a fair number of other clubs and the Bible Studies club will merely reform to study the Bible as a historical or literary work (an academic club).

Basically you are screwed as the law stands now, and much as you despise the idea you are just going to have to tolerate this. You could file a suit under seperation of church and state and there are groups which would probably foot the legal fees (try various atheist groups) but your chances of suceeding are effectively nil under the law as established.

aye, that's what i had considered. I'd still like to see how far i can go with this, though. There's no representation for other religions, etc.

Aw, come on, man. Don't be one of those ACLU-er than thou faux activists who has to root out God wherever He is. Is the club harming you in any way, shape or form? Let me answer that for you -- no.

You have a leg to stand on only if the club uses school-raised or state-given funds, and if their advisor has any brains at all, they don't.

I'm a nine-year public high school music teacher here in Seattle, and I encourage members of all faiths to create their own clubs. I allowed a church whose building was destroyed by fire to meet in my choir room, and lo and behold, nobody was proselytized and nobody was harmed. Other public schools across the country regularly have such clubs and churches and other quasi-religious groups (Boy Scouts, Demolay, etc.) use their buildings. Why? Because members of these groups pay taxes, too. The church receives no state funds in any of these cases and no one is even inconvenienced, let alone harmed.

It's people who complain about Church/State separation when there's no problem that ruin the reputation of the ACLU and the rest of us who are affronted by GENUINE attempts to religify government (our Commander-in-Chief comes to mind, among others). Leave this club alone! Your very language and posturing show me that you've no other agenda besides pissing off Christians. While that can be fun, it's only fun when it's deserved...trust me, some Puritan group in your area will do something heinous enough to deserve your ire and wrath eventually, so save your indignation for that moment. In your case, this club is non-curricular, after hours, and harming exactly nobody.

Unclench -- you'll live longer.

There's a Bible Studies club at my school, where you can "study the Bible, learn about the whole God thing, or just hang around with other Christians", as according to the morning announcements. I want to know if this is legal in America, what with the whole separation of church and state thing, so I could potentially shut it down. I don't particularly think that they should get away with having a religious club that belongs at a church to be set up on a state-operated school. Considering the fact that it's probably paid for with school club funds (although I'm not sure), plus they might have a teacher or two involved (again, not sure, but possible), there's a good chance that if I confront the school administration, then (if need be) go to the District and the State, I could shut down this religious club on school campus. Feel free to comment or help me out.

sigh, yet another example of why people atheists. I am devoutly atheist, yet I dont give a damn what others believe. In fact some of my best friends are christians, cant you just ignore them or something? Radical actions on both sides are the problem, not only the actions of the religious.

In Australian public schools, primary and sometimes secondary (if they can get somebody to do it) have a scripture class. It's fucking ridiculous. My little sister comes home crapping on about creationism and Jesus and shit, and we're an athiest family. Can you believe that in YEAR 10 my parents had to write a note to the school excluding me from scripture? They have no fucking right to inflict religious beliefs on children in public schools.... Christ it makes me mad.
My little sister has to complete homework on the great flood and all that bullshit. I feel like going into the school and strangling her fucked in the head teacher.

You have it lucky in the U.S., who cares if a group of christians have a little group outside of school time? even if it is in school hours.

Yeah i know what you mean, luckily for me, my school only has the scripture service once a year.. but i do find it interesting, what they have to say.. and i also like asking questions to make them feel uncomfortable..

Hah!

Not only did my High School have a bible club, but they actually had a Bible Class, for English credits if you were a senior! They still do, too. In California, of all places. Perfectly legal.

God Bless the Rehnquist Court, if you're a believer. The Constitution is very tolerant toward religious studies as long as their precedent stands. I consider it a good thing, personally. Even tolerant non-believers can laugh and laugh for hours at radical anti-religionists as they try to stop it, the original poster in this thread, for example. :D

Yeah i know what you mean, luckily for me, my school only has the scripture service once a year.. but i do find it interesting, what they have to say.. and i also like asking questions to make them feel uncomfortable..

Like what?

I'm a lawyer - Legally, if the school does not require you to attend and if they offer equal access to their facilities for other clubs and don't discriminate against other clubs for religious reasons, you don't have a leg to stand on. If Buddists, Muslims, Jews, etc. wanted to form a club, and they could, with the same access as the Christians, there is no legal problem here. The Constitution prohibits the state from "establishing" a religion. Merely saying a religious group can use the facilities like anyone else does not "establish" a religion.

Now, just a question, why do you want to shut them down? What have they done to you?

maybe you should consider asking JC for a little advice im sure hed help you out. or just visit your local church, bible study group or (pastor, bishop, priest, imam, guru, pope, dahli lama, cardinal, cleric, medicine man) or what have you and ask them how you can get rid of these little religious geeks once and for all.

aye, that's what i had considered. I'd still like to see how far i can go with this, though. There's no representation for other religions, etc.

Interestingly, around here, Muslims get a prayer room that they can go to.
Religious clubs are not allowed at the schools - the restriction seems to apply only to Christians.

Most of the time, when anything comes up, it seems to be people who hate Christianity who make these sorts of complaints - because the same people will also stand up and say we have to have a Muslim prayer room.

At least that's how it works around here.

Hah!

Not only did my High School have a bible club, but they actually had a Bible Class, for English credits if you were a senior! They still do, too. In California, of all places. Perfectly legal.

God Bless the Rehnquist Court, if you're a believer. The Constitution is very tolerant toward religious studies as long as their precedent stands. I consider it a good thing, personally. Even tolerant non-believers can laugh and laugh for hours at radical anti-religionists as they try to stop it, the original poster in this thread, for example. :D
I also had a bible as lit class
It was actualy an awsome class even though I am agnostic and it was taught by an athiest (the fundies had a field day with that one but he is one of the most articulate people you will ever meet)
It was not required and was a LITERATURE study of a text just like the poetry study class was
I dident have a problem with it it was cool

aye, that's what i had considered. I'd still like to see how far i can go with this, though. There's no representation for other religions, etc.

have any other religions tried to form clubs and been denied?

although there is no constitutional guarantee of the separation of church and football, you might as well complain that the school football team amounts to state sponsorship of football, is unfair to players of coal-carrying and shove-hapenny and gives too much power to the NFL.

If the school forced everyone to sing "we love gridirons" every morning, taught that home runs are the work of satan and made football lessons compulsory, yoiu might have a case. Similarly christianity classes and christianity clubs.

Interestingly, around here, Muslims get a prayer room that they can go to.
Religious clubs are not allowed at the schools - the restriction seems to apply only to Christians.

Most of the time, when anything comes up, it seems to be people who hate Christianity who make these sorts of complaints - because the same people will also stand up and say we have to have a Muslim prayer room.

At least that's how it works around here.

Where do you live that has schools with a prayer room for Islamic prayer only?
Are religious clubs not allowed, or christian clubs not allowed? You didn't make that clear.

Where do you live that has schools with a prayer room for Islamic prayer only?
Are religious clubs not allowed, or christian clubs not allowed? You didn't make that clear.

Montgomery County, Maryland
Fairfax County, Virginia

Prayer rooms for Muslims students, implemented shortly after 9-11, in the interest of "preventing terrorism by showing more understanding".

All other religious clubs forbidden. There are Islamic clubs.

if you're not preaching but only explain i don't think it's illegal. But it might be interesting to study other religious texts like the Koran. If you do that nobody could blame you of prozelitism.

Italian Korea, why would you want to go shove your belief on others. This religious club was formed and meets after school hours. So there is no conflict with the " church and state" thing. Second, unless they are forcing you to go then there is no harm to it. Live and let live.

Personally, I feel that as long as no one is forcing anyone to listen, or forcing anyone to attend, ALL religions should be allowed to have a prayer room (so they don't disturb the other students, and those offended by a display of religion won't be offended), and ALL religions should have a club after school.

That way, the government won't be favoring one over the other.

Non-religious people have plenty of clubs to belong to.

Montgomery County, Maryland
Fairfax County, Virginia

Prayer rooms for Muslims students, implemented shortly after 9-11, in the interest of "preventing terrorism by showing more understanding".

All other religious clubs forbidden. There are Islamic clubs.

do the prayer rooms say "islamic prayer only" on the door?

Rights and responsibilities of students regarding:

Religion (http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/students/rights/religion/)
You may observe your religious practices in school, including non-school-sponsored student prayer groups, unless they violate the rights of others.

Clubs (http://www.mcps.k12.md.us/students/rights/clubs/)
Your school administration will provide a fair opportunity for students to meet or engage in other activities without school sponsorship under the following circumstances:
...
School employees do not lead or participate in
meetings, including religious meetings.


This seems to indicate that any prayer is allowed as long as it is voluntary. It seems odd that they would forbid school employees from participating in religious meetings if they had already forbidden religious meetings.

do the prayer rooms say "islamic prayer only" on the door?

They are meant for Islamic students only. I have the paper they sent home with every student explaining the rooms.

This seems to indicate that any prayer is allowed as long as it is voluntary. It seems odd that they would forbid school employees from participating in religious meetings if they had already forbidden religious meetings.

Individual prayer is what they mean. No praying in groups, unless you are a Muslim in the Muslim prayer room.

I personally like the idea of a prayer room - but there needs to be a general one, not one just for Muslims.

You can be sent home for praying in groups.

Do the christians try to take away your right to be a little bratty jerk who tries to take away their rights? I think not. :headbang:

There's a Bible Studies club at my school, where you can "study the Bible, learn about the whole God thing, or just hang around with other Christians", as according to the morning announcements. I want to know if this is legal in America, what with the whole separation of church and state thing, so I could potentially shut it down. I don't particularly think that they should get away with having a religious club that belongs at a church to be set up on a state-operated school. Considering the fact that it's probably paid for with school club funds (although I'm not sure), plus they might have a teacher or two involved (again, not sure, but possible), there's a good chance that if I confront the school administration, then (if need be) go to the District and the State, I could shut down this religious club on school campus. Feel free to comment or help me out.

As long as they allow a club on school grounds for students of any other religious preference (even Satanism), then I don't see a problem with it. As I see it, it is only a problem when the school shows any form of favoritism toward any particular religion and excludes any other religion.

Interestingly, around here, Muslims get a prayer room that they can go to.
Religious clubs are not allowed at the schools - the restriction seems to apply only to Christians.

Most of the time, when anything comes up, it seems to be people who hate Christianity who make these sorts of complaints - because the same people will also stand up and say we have to have a Muslim prayer room.

At least that's how it works around here.
I somehow doubt there's a restriction for christians.

At my highschool, there wasn't a christian club until after the muslim prayer rooms started, but that could be due to lack of interest or thought beforehand to such an organization. Or perhaps they were formed out of fear that the muslims were getting a leg up on them. Of course the school I went to probably had more muslims and hindhus than christians...

I still don't understand why Italian Korea wants to shut them down so badly.

Individual prayer is what they mean. No praying in groups, unless you are a Muslim in the Muslim prayer room.

I personally like the idea of a prayer room - but there needs to be a general one, not one just for Muslims.

You can be sent home for praying in groups.
Muslims also have to pray at certain times in the day. Christians don't. There's no commandment to pray towards Jerusalem or some shit every single day at noon or something in christianity.

Hey Italian Korea....

If you are looking for legal stuff to be able to shut down this group, i can suggest two things. One.....call the ACLU.......(i think it stands for American Civil Liberties Union....correct me if i'm wrong)...OR

The thing to do would be to hit the library and look up past case law. In other words.....there may not be an easy way to find the answers that you are looking for. This will also test how serious you are about wanting to shut it down.

But here are some other things to consider. In highschool, i was the president of the Bible Club at my school. The only way we were allowed to meet was if it was student led. Meaning...people like me (students) were the only ones that could organize, pay for (as in expenses...for...whatever after school stuff we wanted to do....etc), and lead the group. The other rule was that we had to have a teacher as a sponsor. really, all that meant was that he allowed us to use his room and he would sign papers....that kind of thing. Other than that the sponsor hung back in the class room and watched.

So most likely this club at your school is not using school funds. And yes...it is a religious meeting on school 'time/grounds'. But if you can have a basket weaving club, you can have a religious club. Anyway.....hope this helps answer your question......

Honestly, i hope that over time you will just learn to tolerate such a group but if you want to go ahead and fight it anyway.....best of luck to you.

I somehow doubt there's a restriction for christians.


Yes there is. No organized group prayer. No clubs.

Yes there is. No organized group prayer. No clubs.
Your thing seemed to say no school sponsored clubs. I somehow doubt that giving the muslims a time and place to meet to pray is school sponsored. All they have to do is leave a door unlocked and the students can take care of themselves.

I'm sure if you tried to start a bible reading club whereby you had to fund everything, they would be perfectly fine with it.

edit: this thing
Originally Posted by Montgomery, MD County Public Schools Board
Rights and responsibilities of students regarding:

Religion
You may observe your religious practices in school, including non-school-sponsored student prayer groups, unless they violate the rights of others.

Clubs
Your school administration will provide a fair opportunity for students to meet or engage in other activities without school sponsorship under the following circumstances:
...
School employees do not lead or participate in
meetings, including religious meetings.

edit2: happy 6000 to me.

Individual prayer is what they mean. No praying in groups, unless you are a Muslim in the Muslim prayer room.

I personally like the idea of a prayer room - but there needs to be a general one, not one just for Muslims.

You can be sent home for praying in groups.



About being sent home in groups for praying......in least in my case i have to disagree.

At my highschool i was part of a group that prayed every morning in a hallway. We were never sent home by school officials or ever told that we couldn't do what we were doing.
The fact that this happened before school may have something to do with that but i doubt it.
Maybe in your area that has happened...which if that is so, that sucks. But at least at my highschool they were leniant.

Your thing seemed to say no school sponsored clubs. I somehow doubt that giving the muslims a time and place to meet to pray is school sponsored. All they have to do is leave a door unlocked and the students can take care of themselves.

I'm sure if you tried to start a bible reading club whereby you had to fund everything, they would be perfectly fine with it.

No, they're school sponsored. The room is dedicated to that purpose. It's on the flyers they sent home with the students.

We were told in no uncertain terms that no religious club would be permitted under any circumstances, despite the fact that there is an Islamic club.

No group prayer by any non-Muslims under any circumstances. There are some southern US schools that allow it before school (there are prayer groups that pray near the flagpols), but that will get you busted here.

I am for allowing ALL religions to pray at school, in groups, in a private room. Just on the condition that no favoritism is shown. There's a few ninnies here who think that if we just allow Muslims to pray in school, there won't be another 9-11 (I've heard one teacher say this to me).

I know this might not be feasible with the amount of non-theists in your school but you can start a mock club. We did so at our school when I did attend High School. We called the mock club "The Church of Commom Sense".

No, they're school sponsored. The room is dedicated to that purpose. It's on the flyers they sent home with the students.

We were told in no uncertain terms that no religious club would be permitted under any circumstances, despite the fact that there is an Islamic club.

No group prayer by any non-Muslims under any circumstances. There are some southern US schools that allow it before school (there are prayer groups that pray near the flagpols), but that will get you busted here.

I am for allowing ALL religions to pray at school, in groups, in a private room. Just on the condition that no favoritism is shown. There's a few ninnies here who think that if we just allow Muslims to pray in school, there won't be another 9-11 (I've heard one teacher say this to me).
Well, at my old highschool, the chrsitian prayer group was mor eheavily advertised than the muslim prayer group.

This is despite the fact that there were more muslims than christians in attendance at my highschool.

And if anything, that just means your school is retarded.

Hell, come to my school (though it's a uni) if you want chrsitian groups. We've got christian groups out our ass here. Hell, the divinity college place puts signs up saying "give your degree to god" as mormons and baptists and every single sect of the same religion tries to get you to go to their church, forcing flyers and bibles and the like into your hands and asking if you've been "saved" it's worse than the damn credit card companies. And hell, sunday mornings, one of the campus bars becomes a church. The campus crusade for christ rents out the biggest lecture hall on campus for weekly meetings and there isn't a single buddhist group, atheist group et c.

There's a Bible Studies club at my school, where you can "study the Bible, learn about the whole God thing, or just hang around with other Christians", as according to the morning announcements. I want to know if this is legal in America, what with the whole separation of church and state thing, so I could potentially shut it down. I don't particularly think that they should get away with having a religious club that belongs at a church to be set up on a state-operated school. Considering the fact that it's probably paid for with school club funds (although I'm not sure), plus they might have a teacher or two involved (again, not sure, but possible), there's a good chance that if I confront the school administration, then (if need be) go to the District and the State, I could shut down this religious club on school campus. Feel free to comment or help me out.


As long as it's extra cirricular (spell check), I think it's okay.

atheist group et c.

No fraternities?

aye, that's what i had considered. I'd still like to see how far i can go with this, though. There's no representation for other religions, etc.


Actually, that church and state are separated, and we have freedom of religion, should mean that a) they get to have their bible club, and wear their crosses to school, and b) you get to have your beliefs without them interfering. Occassionally, a Christian group gets out of hand, and starts "witnessing" i.e. preaching and harassing, passing students. On many community college campuses there are active "Campus for Christ" groups, some of which quietly pray and study the bible in some behind closed door place, and some which push the envelope on their freedoms. I have heard of "Campus for Cthulu" groups which sprung up in response, complete with buttons, flyers, t-shirts, and all of the other paraphenelia the Christian group had. It must have been terribly satisfying to hand a Cthulu flyer to someone who had just shoved a Don't Burn in Hell! propaganda piece in their face.

Hey, i give up! I've already seen that it's legal for such a group to exist, under certain conditions. So stop nagging me...
I won't try shutting down (remember, i was just speculating at first), but i suppose I could start an atheist club ("secular" club perhaps). I could get a few of my friends to join. Thanks for the feedback, everybody, even if it did insult me a bit.

In Australian public schools, primary and sometimes secondary (if they can get somebody to do it) have a scripture class. It's fucking ridiculous. My little sister comes home crapping on about creationism and Jesus and shit, and we're an athiest family. Can you believe that in YEAR 10 my parents had to write a note to the school excluding me from scripture? They have no fucking right to inflict religious beliefs on children in public schools.... Christ it makes me mad.
My little sister has to complete homework on the great flood and all that bullshit. I feel like going into the school and strangling her fucked in the head teacher.



I remember in primary school we had some guy sing random songs about Jesus, and then filled out sheets where every answer was "Jesus" or "The Bible"


Strangly enough, it was all the fundies that never signed the notes for scripture.

I think the more important question is: Why as a taxpayer should I be forced to give my money up to a system that uses my tax money for non-curricular activities?

If you want your kid's self-esteem to be high: cherish them, unconditionally love them, discipline them in love, train them to honor others, train them to work and to earn, give them opportunities to serve, love them at your own home, teach them how to accomplish things using their creativity, etc etc etc.

Your kids want to learn chess? OK, but you also can teach them or take them to community organizations that have those activities. I can see how chess complements the curriculum and development of higher order thinking skills.

You want your kids to play football? They can do that in PE class. Just the interst to pay off the construction bonds for a $90 milliion dollar high school football stadium would pay for significant reading and math tutorials, significant pay raises for teachers, etc. etc. etc.

I'm all for communities using schools as a center for good, productive activities for kids, but gee-whiz we sure have priorities screwed up in the US on how we spend taxpayers' money.

Solution? Put me in charge.

My school has a bible club and there was no problem.
we even had a gay/lesbain club..but that didnt work out because other students arent mature enough to take it serously and such...

There's a Bible Studies club at my school, where you can "study the Bible, learn about the whole God thing, or just hang around with other Christians", as according to the morning announcements. I want to know if this is legal in America, what with the whole separation of church and state thing, so I could potentially shut it down. I don't particularly think that they should get away with having a religious club that belongs at a church to be set up on a state-operated school. Considering the fact that it's probably paid for with school club funds (although I'm not sure), plus they might have a teacher or two involved (again, not sure, but possible), there's a good chance that if I confront the school administration, then (if need be) go to the District and the State, I could shut down this religious club on school campus. Feel free to comment or help me out.

I'm British so I dont know much about the American "seperation of Church/State" stuff but I think that if the teachers are using their own money to run this and not the school funds then it seems fine. It's extra curricular so its not being forced upon the children. I immagine the "seperation of Church/State" thing only applies to compulsery state education

There's a Bible Studies club at my school, where you can "study the Bible, learn about the whole God thing, or just hang around with other Christians", as according to the morning announcements. I want to know if this is legal in America, what with the whole separation of church and state thing, so I could potentially shut it down. I don't particularly think that they should get away with having a religious club that belongs at a church to be set up on a state-operated school. Considering the fact that it's probably paid for with school club funds (although I'm not sure), plus they might have a teacher or two involved (again, not sure, but possible), there's a good chance that if I confront the school administration, then (if need be) go to the District and the State, I could shut down this religious club on school campus. Feel free to comment or help me out.

How sad. Just because you dont agree with them, you want to shut them down. You're just as intolerant as a fundamentalist Christian.

I'm British so I dont know much about the American "seperation of Church/State" stuff but I think that if the teachers are using their own money to run this and not the school funds then it seems fine. It's extra curricular so its not being forced upon the children. I immagine the "seperation of Church/State" thing only applies to compulsery state education

My personal politics is to the right of the soup spoon, but I think I have a fair grasp of the issue:

The "separation of church and state" is not in our Constitution -- it's a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson well after the Constitution was ratified and is tossed around by folks whenever it fits their agenda. the original constitutional idea was not to have an official "state religion", but we have a pretty strong tension in this country between political/religious freedom and governmental authority.

If the religion-based meeting is voluntary, not led by a school authority (but supervised for "safety" is ok), and no tax money is used on it (apparently, it doesn't take tax money for the utilities to operate during the time), then non-curricular student groups of religious nature have to be allowed to meet on campus if other non-curricular groups meet (ie: chess club). This is the basic purpose of The Equal Access Act.

Those groups that advocate violence or criminal activity can be banned.

I'm British so I dont know much about the American "seperation of Church/State" stuff but I think that if the teachers are using their own money to run this and not the school funds then it seems fine. It's extra curricular so its not being forced upon the children. I immagine the "seperation of Church/State" thing only applies to compulsery state education

Technically, the teachers can't pay for it either - just like the teachers in your ideal system (I believe I have argued this with you before) can't wear headscarves.

However, the students can and do pay for such clubs. There was a prayer club at my high school that was very popular. The teacher sponsor is there, not to lead/pay for the club, but to make sure the students don't get unruly.

*snip*

You have already been advised that the club in question is probably legal. It may not be, depending on how exactly it is set up and run and whether similar clubs are allowed. My guess is that your school complies with the Equal Access Act, but it may not.

There is little harm in asking about it and, if things appear suspicious, contacting the local ACLU.

Otherwise, I would not scold you, but advise tolerance. If the principals of the First Amendment are being violated that is one thing. So too if you were being harassed for your beliefs. But, by the same token, you should value the freedoms of others and not harass them.

I do find it interesting how many lept to the assumption that your school was exactly like theirs. There are schools where the principles of the First Amendment and the Equal Access Act are violated. I attended such schools. These things do happen -- particularly if those who believe the that the seperation of Church and State is a fiction or is undesirable are in charge. I would like to think and fervently hope that the law is being obeyed in your school, but it is good to exercise vigiliance in defense of our liberties.

Assuming the club is being legally put forth, you may wish to form either a club around your own beliefs, one dedicated to discussion of all beliefs, or one dedicated to protecting civil liberties.

Technically, the teachers can't pay for it either - just like the teachers in your ideal system (I believe I have argued this with you before) can't wear headscarves.

However, the students can and do pay for such clubs. There was a prayer club at my high school that was very popular. The teacher sponsor is there, not to lead/pay for the club, but to make sure the students don't get unruly.

If the teachers have earned that money, its theirs to do with as they please, isnt it. Im not talking about taking school fund's, Im talking about the teachers using the money (that they have earned from teaching) to buy Bibles and other books for them to study. Is there anything wrong with that?

I'm a liberal and a Democrat.
I'm also a member of a club on my campus for Anglican and Lutheran students.

We violate no constitutional or other legal provisions, as we are not funded with public dollars other than what we raise on our own. The administration allows our group to exist, alongside the Muslim Students Association, the Gay Straight Alliance, Students Against War (I participate in those last two groups as well, by the way).

If someone were to begin using legal means to harrass my organisation on totally baseless grounds other than his/her offence at our occasional get-togethers, I would find the whole affair hurtful and disappointing. Hurtful because we would be flagrantly discriminated against by an intolerant individual. Disappointing because I would have liked to believe that the individual had a higher capacity for tolerance of beliefs other than his/her own.

Religion clubs on campuses are not an uncommon affair. If they receive government funding or any favouritism from the administration, then you have grounds to do file a complaint or take some kind of action. Otherwise, live and let live.