NationStates Jolt Archive

Ok, I'll go back on my soapbox for something. I read in the paper this morning of how the Alliance Defence Fund had what was called the "Day of Truth". This was in responce to the "Day of Silence", a day where students walked around silent for a day to draw attention to the harassment and isolation gay students experience. The "Day of Truth" is ment to mobilize students whom beleave homosexuality is a sin. Durring the day, they wear T-shirts claiming " The truth can not be silenced." and pass out cards with declairing thier unwillingness to condone " detrimental personal and social behavior". This is being endorced by the Christian Ministry Focus on the Family, The Southern Baptists Convention's Ethics, And the Religious Liberty Commission.

Now, on a personal note, in middle school I was thought to be gay. I will tell you that the harassment I received was unending and unbearable. It began the moment I entered the school until the moment I was away from school. I have had lunches ruined, been beaten by a group of kids, received numerous amounts of verbal abuse. I had done nothing to provoke this behavior that I could remember. I was forced to endure this for six years until I left that school system. I could only imagine what students who are gay would have to endure. Now we have people whom are trying to help these students only to have a group further provoke the harassment. The bottom line is we are all human people! Get off your moral pedistal and lets work together, not destroy each other.

I'm not gay, but I know what it's like to be harassed and isolated by idiots. If you know of any ways I can publicy oppose this day of lies, then tell me.

Luckily for me, few of the people in my school are this stupid, and I will verbally and mentally rip them a new one if I hear this crap from them.

declair your unwillingness to condone bigotry and hatred.

i fully and completely support Day of Truth: any student who is a big enough jackass to support something like that should be encouraged to advertise what a bigotted, ignorant punk they really are. let them wear the t-shirts and pass out the cards, so that everybody knows who and what they are.

Now, on a personal note, in middle school I was thought to be gay. I will tell you that the harassment I received was unending and unbearable. It began the moment I entered the school until the moment I was away from school. I have had lunches ruined, been beaten by a group of kids, received numerous amounts of verbal abuse. I had done nothing to provoke this behavior that I could remember. I was forced to endure this for six years until I left that school system. I could only imagine what a student whom is gay would have to endure. Now we have people whom are trying to help these students only to have a group further provoke the harassment. The bottom line is we are all human people! Get off your moral pedistal and lets work together, not destroy each other.
Well said, and very true. [ applauds ]

If anyone pulls that shit in my school, they won't last a minute.

I'm proud to say that my school is considered one of the best schools to go to if you are gay.

The Day of Silence is for sodomites and disrupts the education of humans.

Commando3']The Day of Silence is for sodomites and disrupts the education of humans.
'Cos nothing disrupts a class like silence.

'Cos nothing disrupts a class like silence.
we must stop gay students from sitting quietly in class! they are an abomination, and should not be permitted to refrain from loud talking during school hours!

we must stop gay students from sitting quietly in class! they are an abomination, and should not be permitted to refrain from loud talking during school hours!

They just shouldn't be allowed to reveal they are sodomites as it will frighten normal people. If they shut up and stay quiet thats fine.

Commando3']They just shouldn't be allowed to reveal they are sodomites as it will frighten normal people. If they shut up and stay quiet thats fine.
yeah, and women shouldn't be allowed to reveal their ankles! SIN SIN SIN!! SODOMITES, ALL OF THEM!!!

Commando3']They just shouldn't be allowed to reveal they are sodomites as it will frighten normal people. If they shut up and stay quiet thats fine.
Asking for a ban Commando?

I think I should send him something by Ian Philips. ;)

Commando3']They just shouldn't be allowed to reveal they are sodomites as it will frighten normal people. If they shut up and stay quiet thats fine.
So why are you against the Day of Silence, when they voluteraly shut up?

So why are you against the Day of Silence, when they voluteraly shit up?

I don't think they "shit" up... :D

They just shouldn't be allowed to reveal they are sodomites as it will frighten normal people. If they shut up and stay quiet thats fine.
You shouldn't be able to reveal that you are [NS]Commando3. It will frighten normal people.

You shouldn't be able to reveal that you are [NS]Commando3. It will frighten normal people.
It frightens everyone.

I did the Day of Silence today. While I'm not gonna get too up in a tizzy about our new troll here, I will point out it's not just for "sodomites".

On that note you know what was funny? Probably more than 40% of my high school is gay or bi (it's an alternative magnet) and yet most of the people doing it were straight. Everybody else, even gay people, grumbled about its pointlessness and/or tried to get us to talk.

"Hey, have you gotten oral sex yet? If you don't say anything, I know it just means you're embarrassed to say yes!"

Ah, I have truly discovered the higher calling of the double middle finger. Proudly, however, my friend who was mainly doing this says I'm the only one he knows who didn't slip up all day.

None of you really believe the "Day of Silence" has anything to do with homosexuality, do you? There is a definite political agenda being advanced with this sort of thing, be it homosexual marriage or affirmative action or some sort of "alternative" education. Maybe a rude %0.1 of the population actively harasses gays, but politics is the game here, not some effort to stem the homosexual equivalent of race-baiting.

I didn't see a single demonstrator taking part in the "Day of Silence" today, nor did I see any counter-protesters. But I don't expect one group to make a political statement and their opponents to just stand by.. If one side forces the issue, the other should rightly respond.

Yes, and abolition movements had noting to do with slavery. They were just advancing a "political agenda."

it's much, much higher than 0.1%, especially in our schools.

im sure gald i live in canada im prety sure that this "day of truth" crap would be ilegal and labeled hate crime,on a slightly related topic that crazy anti gay crusade is banned in canada and that pastor that leads them could face seriouse jail time if found in canada.

They tried to apply the Day of Silence to me today. First one of my colleagues told me to shut up, because I talk too much. It's true, but I only do it to get attention.

I told her "What do you mean shut up? Let's ask someone else." So I asked another one of my colleagues if she wanted me to shut up and she said yes.

"That's ludicrus," I said, "let's make it best out of three." So I asked another one and she said she wanted me to shut up too! So I had to shut up.

What does this have to do with gayness, bigotry and all that? Well, nothing at all, just thought I would mention it.

Hey if your gay thats cool. I really don't care. But when homos go around parading there gay thats just stupid. I don't go parading around that I'm strait just because I like the honeys.

Yes, and abolition movements had noting to do with slavery. They were just advancing a "political agenda."

it's much, much higher than 0.1%, especially in our schools.

If they were protesting homosexuals, rather than the homosexual agenda or common lifestyle, that'd be the type of racism that bred slavery. Maybe the extreme elements who see blacks or gays as sub-human should be protested, but that's not the norm, and any racial group could hold such a protest. Slavery in the U.S. was based on an assumption that blacks were sub-human or deserved their inhuman role, while the "Day of Truth," according to CNN.com, is about opposing homosexuality on religious or political grounds, not on the basis of gays as sub-human.

Hey if your gay thats cool. I really don't care. But when homos go around parading there gay thats just stupid. I don't go parading around that I'm strait just because I like the honeys.
the Day of Silence isn't about "parading there [sic] gay," it is about calling attention to the discrimination gay students suffer in school. it is about rejecting bullying, bigotry, and unjust treatment. it's not about bragging to other people about who you like to screw, it's about standing up for your right to be treated fairly and with respect even if other people disagree with your beliefs or values.

In the words of a very wise man, "Well, they can't help it, so I say we just kill them."

Referring of course to those who dress up like mice and have cheese parties

i agree this is stupid if youre gay do not tell me. I disagree with homosexuallity. I do not want to know if someone is gay they should keep it to themselves. Maybe they should feel bad for being gay because it is sick and disgusting. If the whole world was gay we would all go extinct because there would be no more kids.

i agree this is stupid if youre gay do not tell me. I disagree with homosexuallity. I do not want to know if someone is gay they should keep it to themselves. Maybe they should feel bad for being gay because it is sick and disgusting. If the whole world was gay we would all go extinct because there would be no more kids.
*pets the troll*

*pets the troll*

Don't get too close... ;)

i agree this is stupid if youre gay do not tell me. I disagree with homosexuallity. I do not want to know if someone is gay they should keep it to themselves. Maybe they should feel bad for being gay because it is sick and disgusting. If the whole world was gay we would all go extinct because there would be no more kids.

Why, may I ask, is it 'sick and disgusting'?

And the whole world is obviously not gay, and never will be, so... You have no argument here. Wtf?

Don't get too close... ;)
awww, a cute widdle twoll like him wouldn't bit me!

the Day of Silence isn't about "parading there [sic] gay," it is about calling attention to the discrimination gay students suffer in school. it is about rejecting bullying, bigotry, and unjust treatment. it's not about bragging to other people about who you like to screw, it's about standing up for your right to be treated fairly and with respect even if other people disagree with your beliefs or values.




Gotcha. I don't have a problem with the day. But with this day every gay person is going to be loud and proud of his gayness.

Gotcha. I don't have a problem with the day. But with this day every gay person is going to be loud and proud of his gayness.
granted it's been a few years since i was in high school, but i remember pretty much every straight boy in school being "loud and proud" about his straightness. i don't see why gay people having self confidence should bother anybody, especially given the amount of heterosexual yammer going on.

awww, a cute widdle twoll like him wouldn't bit me!

Watch out, they've got some kind of scent that lures the others....

In the words of a very wise man, "Well, they can't help it, so I say we just kill them."

Referring of course to those who dress up like mice and have cheese parties

Goddamn cheese eaters! Hunt 'em all down!

By the way, did you mean "Xenocide" be any chance? Because Xenos, I believe is stranger (or something similar, anyway), like from the term "xenia", or hospitality, or perhaps xenophobia, or fear of strangers - so the murder of strangers would be "Xenocide".

Plus, that's how Orson Scott Card spells it :)

Watch out, they've got some kind of scent that lures the others....
if we listen very carefully, we might be able to hear the subtle mating call of the Wild Forum Troll...

"ur all faggots!!!1!!11! fags r going 2 hell there sick and should all die!!11!!!"

You think Heterosexuals don't go around and parade the fact that they do, in fact, like the opposite sex?

Girls Gone Wild!

Playboy

Hustler

The Man Show

granted it's been a few years since i was in high school, but i remember pretty much every straight boy in school being "loud and proud" about his straightness. i don't see why gay people having self confidence should bother anybody, especially given the amount of heterosexual yammer going on.


Well I guess I don't notice straight guys parading it. But then again with most of the kids being straight it may be subconcious.

if we listen very carefully, we might be able to hear the subtle mating call of the Wild Forum Troll...

"ur all faggots!!!1!!11! fags r going 2 hell there sick and should all die!!11!!!"

:D

Don't forget "Sodomites"!

Subconcious? A male looking at Playboy in public would be doing the exact same thing as a male looking at Playgirl in public.

Well I guess I don't notice straight guys parading it. But then again with most of the kids being straight it may be subconcious.
probably. personally, i think it's silly for anybody to be proud that they like boobies or pecks or penises or vaginas, because who the hell cares? i wasn't interested in who my classmates were nailing, and i'm even less interested in my collegues' sex lives now.

on the other hand, gay students face hurdles that straight students never do, and if a gay student can have the guts to be honest about their sexuality (just honest, not aggressively annoying, mind you) then that is something they should be proud of. it's like being the only Jewish kid in a mostly-Catholic public school...having been born to a Jewish family isn't necessarily brag-worthy, but being strong enough to not hide your beliefs is something you deserve to feel proud about.

Goddamn cheese eaters! Hunt 'em all down!

By the way, did you mean "Xenocide" be any chance? Because Xenos, I believe is stranger (or something similar, anyway), like from the term "xenia", or hospitality, or perhaps xenophobia, or fear of strangers - so the murder of strangers would be "Xenocide".

Plus, that's how Orson Scott Card spells it :)



Ender's Game Rocks.

Commando3']They just shouldn't be allowed to reveal they are sodomites as it will frighten normal people. If they shut up and stay quiet thats fine.

You arent a normal person and Im not frightened by gays. You lose.

:D

Don't forget "Sodomites"!

what about gommorahites??

If they were protesting homosexuals, rather than the homosexual agenda or common lifestyle, that'd be the type of racism that bred slavery. Maybe the extreme elements who see blacks or gays as sub-human should be protested, but that's not the norm, and any racial group could hold such a protest. Slavery in the U.S. was based on an assumption that blacks were sub-human or deserved their inhuman role, while the "Day of Truth," according to CNN.com, is about opposing homosexuality on religious or political grounds, not on the basis of gays as sub-human.
The gay agenda is a crock. The only agenda gays have is to be treated the same as straights. Everyone has that agenda, in one way or another.

Also, think of this
"I'm not a rascist, I just disapprove of the black lifestyle."
"I'm not anti-semetic, I just disapprove of the jewish lifestyle."
"I'm not a bigot, I just disaprove of the gay lifestyle"
They sound very similer, no?
Is it right for people to parade around passing out cards saying that they disapprove of you loving the person you love? For any reason?

And meanwhile, you belittle a protest of harassment, harassment that every openly gay student faces, no matter where they are. I personally know people who are so homophobic that they would gang up and beat up a gay person if there wern't people smarter and bigger than them to stop them.

Think about it. Think about facing school every day, where half the people go out of their way to make your life miserable. Think about being told daily that you are damned to hell for who you are. Think about that, and honestly tell me that you can still stand behind your views.
And then tell me why. Because I can't imagine.

Ender's Game Rocks.
That it does, but I actually prefer the Shadow's, the Ender Saga books about Bean and Peter. They go into the deeper thought of the later Ender-EnderSaga books (as opposed to the Bean-EnderSaga books), but keep the action and intensity of the first book at the same time.

probably. personally, i think it's silly for anybody to be proud that they like boobies or pecks or penises or vaginas, because who the hell cares? i wasn't interested in who my classmates were nailing, and i'm even less interested in my collegues' sex lives now.

on the other hand, gay students face hurdles that straight students never do, and if a gay student can have the guts to be honest about their sexuality (just honest, not aggressively annoying, mind you) then that is something they should be proud of. it's like being the only Jewish kid in a mostly-Catholic public school...having been born to a Jewish family isn't necessarily brag-worthy, but being strong enough to not hide your beliefs is something you deserve to feel proud about.


I agree

what about gommorahites??

Gommorah got shafted in the Bible! No mention, just a name after Sodom.
I guess they can be whatever they want.

Is it right for people to parade around passing out cards saying that they disapprove of you loving the person you love? For any reason?

since when does gay = love? I don't get why people always say that being gay is about being in love. it's about being attracted to the same-sex. just like being straight is being attracted to the opposite sex.

That it does, but I actually prefer the Shadow's, the Ender Saga books about Bean and Peter. They go into the deeper thought of the later Ender-EnderSaga books (as opposed to the Bean-EnderSaga books), but keep the action and intensity of the first book at the same time.


Never heard of it. I will have to look that one up.

Never heard of it. I will have to look that one up.
Right, those books are:

Ender's Shadow
Shadow of the Hegemon
Shadow Puppets
First Meetings (I think, I don't have this one yet :( )

By the way, did you mean "Xenocide" be any chance? Because Xenos, I believe is stranger (or something similar, anyway), like from the term "xenia", or hospitality, or perhaps xenophobia, or fear of strangers - so the murder of strangers would be "Xenocide".

Xeno typically means outsider, so Xenocide would be the killing of outsiders.

Ok, I'll go back on my soapbox for something. I read in the paper this morning of how the Alliance Defence Fund had what was called the "Day of Truth". This was in responce to the "Day of Silence", a day where students walked around silent for a day to draw attention to the harassment and isolation gay students experience. The "Day of Truth" is ment to mobilize students whom beleave homosexuality is a sin. Durring the day, they wear T-shirts claiming " The truth can not be silenced." and pass out cards with declairing thier unwillingness to condone " detrimental personal and social behavior". This is being endorced by the Christian Ministry Focus on the Family, The Southern Baptists Convention's Ethics, And the Religious Liberty Commission.

Well, aren't these guys shameless scumbags? Do you feel special Jerry Falwell? Hmm? Harassing kids?

I would feel special...[/sarcasm]

Right, those books are:

Ender's Shadow
Shadow of the Hegemon
Shadow Puppets
First Meetings (I think, I don't have this one yet :( )


cool

Just because someone disapproves of the black/jewish/gay lifestyle doesn't mean they're a racist/anti-semitist/bigot. I don't approve of the lifestyle that criminals live, but does that mean I hate criminals? No, not really.

Tolerance and approval have become two words that are used interchangeably, but have completely different meanings. Don't confuse the two.

Just because someone disapproves of the black/jewish/gay lifestyle doesn't mean they're a racist/anti-semitist/bigot. I don't approve of the lifestyle that criminals live, but does that mean I hate criminals? No, not really.

That is...a rather interesting point...

my last post was supposed to be a quote from cyrian space's previous post, but the quote button was giving me 404's.

Just because someone disapproves of the black/jewish/gay lifestyle doesn't mean they're a racist/anti-semitist/bigot. I don't approve of the lifestyle that criminals live, but does that mean I hate criminals? No, not really.

Tolerance and approval have become two words that are used interchangeably, but have completely different meanings. Don't confuse the two.
So you tolerate but don't approve? Ok, I can live with that - although I would ideally look for neither, just accepted as something that is, and that doesn't need to be tolerated any more than the status quo.

So you tolerate but don't approve? Ok, I can live with that - although I would ideally look for neither, just accepted as something that is, and that doesn't need to be tolerated any more than the status quo.
I think I understand what you are saying, but everything can't be status quo. Contradicting beliefs couldn't be the norm, because that would screw everyone up.

So should it be considered OK then to go up to a jewish kid and say "I disapprove of your jewish lifestyle. I think it is detrimental to society."
That's effectively what the "day of truth" is about.

I'm bisexual, and I actually participated in the Day of Silence today along with 150 other kids at my school. The Day of Truth is tomorrow, according to the newsletter The Alliance (gay rights club at my school) sent out to all the kids participating in the Day of Silence... just as a warning.

Personally I thought the day went over well, except for a few kids who felt it was necessary to aproach me, speak their mind to me about how homosexuality is wrong and god is right, and then say things like "What? You don't have anything to say to that do you." Obviously they realized I couldn't respond to what they had said... because I was participating in the Day of Silence.

Also one of the more disturbing points of the day were the few boys at our school wore shirts with versus from the bible depicting how wrong it was to be gay and why god thought so. Some kids took it as far as to wear shirts that said things like "God hates Queers".

The worst part of my day was in Biology when one of the kids with the versed shirts on was instructed by the teacher to stand up and allow the class to read his shirt, which he did without question. Obviously the teacher did this after becoming aware that I was participating, because she is an extreme Republican and opposes gay rights heavily. Then the class began to mock me, and the other girl in my class participating.

I wasn't sure how to react to this. The Alliance as well as the Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgender community and her allies decided to participate in this protest because it was peaceful, and it sent out our message in a very non-hurtful way. Yet many christians, who have been versed over and over to "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" would be so cruel. It really put a lot of things into perspective for me. Especially after my mom, a born and raised Irish Catholic girl was able to understand the way I am and deal with my participation in such activities, and even some what incourage me to spread a good message about it.

I understand that Anti-gay people should be allowed to protest in their own way just as those who believe in gay rights do, I just wish they could find a way to do so in a peaceful manner - which does not objectify individuals and even threaten their safety at school, amoung other places.

Sorry this post got a bit long and there's probably quite a few spelling errors and such, but I had to rant and found the right post in which to do so.

So should it be considered OK then to go up to a jewish kid and say "I disapprove of your jewish lifestyle. I think it is detrimental to society."
That's effectively what the "day of truth" is about.

Sure, that'd be protected speech. You'd probably be one lonely protester though. :p

I think I understand what you are saying, but everything can't be status quo. Contradicting beliefs couldn't be the norm, because that would screw everyone up.
I didn't mean it would be status quo, but that it would not be treated differently from it.

The worst part of my day was in Biology when one of the kids with the versed shirts on was instructed by the teacher to stand up and allow the class to read his shirt, which he did without question. Obviously the teacher did this after becoming aware that I was participating, because she is an extreme Republican and opposes gay rights heavily. Then the class began to mock me, and the other girl in my class participating.

Just so you know, the teacher's actions were against the law. You could successfully sue the school for that.

So should it be considered OK then to go up to a jewish kid and say "I disapprove of your jewish lifestyle. I think it is detrimental to society."
That's effectively what the "day of truth" is about.
exactly. i believe people most certainly should be free to say things like that, and their right to say things like that should be defended by anybody who believes in free speech, but i also think we shouldn't have any illusions about what that sort of crap is all about.

a lot of the religious homophobes like to claim homosexuality is pure choice. even if it is (which i don't believe is the case), they are the LAST people who should be using that argument...after all, religious orientation is pure choice! if we are going to allow discrimination against personal choices, i hope the religious 'phobes are prepared to give up the legal protections for their views.

The way that the "Christians" in your school acted is not at all how any real Christian would act. The Bible does instruct us to love our neighbor as ourself, and to treat others like we would want to be treated. The Bible does also condemn homosexuality as an abomination to God. However, in doing what your fellow classmates did, they were going against what they should have learned in the first place. I wouldn't like it very much if someone told me that they hated me because I was a Christian, and that I should be treated like any less of a person because of that. While God condemns homosexuality, He hates no person...just their sin. You would never catch me wearing those shirts if it makes you feel any better.

Just so you know, the teacher's actions were against the law. You could successfully sue the school for that.

I wouldn't say that categorically. It may or may not be considered an intentional tort in your area, depending on your school codes, waivers, etc. But it almost certainly wouldn't be against a criminal code.

The worst part of my day was in Biology when one of the kids with the versed shirts on was instructed by the teacher to stand up and allow the class to read his shirt, which he did without question. Obviously the teacher did this after becoming aware that I was participating, because she is an extreme Republican and opposes gay rights heavily. Then the class began to mock me, and the other girl in my class participating.


Your teacher did this?

I hope he gets his ass pink-slipped for harrasment...

I never said that they shouldn't be allowed to say what they want, only that it should not be considered "acceptable" by society.
Because it's rude.

It's a woman. She's hated me all year long. I knew Biology would be my worst class of the day.

I suck at life and don't know how to quote people on forums, but Antheridia I understand that most real christians dont act that way. In fact some of my friends are very christian in their beliefs and they still allowed me to do this today without comment. I really respect them for that. It is a one's choice to believe what they wish, but the way in which they express it shows their true character.

It's a woman. She's hated me all year long. I knew Biology would be my worst class of the day.

I suck at life and don't know how to quote people on forums, but Antheridia I understand that most real christians dont act that way. In fact some of my friends are very christian in their beliefs and they still allowed me to do this today without comment. I really respect them for that. It is a one's choice to believe what they wish, but the way in which they express it shows their true character.

No matter, what she did should be labeled as harrasment.

What morons! :rolleyes:
At least they've outed themselves.

It's a woman. She's hated me all year long. I knew Biology would be my worst class of the day.

I suck at life and don't know how to quote people on forums, but Antheridia I understand that most real christians dont act that way. In fact some of my friends are very christian in their beliefs and they still allowed me to do this today without comment. I really respect them for that. It is a one's choice to believe what they wish, but the way in which they express it shows their true character.
You don't suck at life, you just have a sucky school system. Where do you live btw?

I meant I suck at life cause I can't figure out how to quote people on the forums =p.

I go to a really rich school in the suburbs of Kansas City, MO, USA.

to quote someone, just press that quote button at the bottom right corner of their post

Heh thanks.

There are two ways to quote people. The first is to click the little button that says Quote on the bottom right of each person's post. The second is to click the little text box on the right of the toolbar when you are writing a post. It's on the right as well.

Hope that helps!
And no, you don't suck at life, just the internet.

What happened to free speech? If gays want to have their Day of Silence, is that not their right? And if Christians, believing as they do, reply with their Day of Truth, is that not equal and right?

Why is it acceptable to so many for gays to voice how they feel, but Christians are slammed if they do not agree? You say gay bashing occurs. It does. There is also Christian bashing, which is worsening day by day.

Free speech, the right to express one's belief, was written for everyone, was it not? If not, then NEITHER day should have been expressed.

I already said I believed Christians had the right to demonstate on how they felt on their side of the situation. I just feel that the way in which they are doing it is flawed and hurtful.

Clovers and Luck, I'm sorry that so many who professed the same faith that I have did this to you. They obviously don't have their hearts in the right place, and it's ultimately their problem. Don't let them get you down.

Although I do not condone the way you live your life, I can't really change it. Best of luck with school and that mess.

What's your name btw?

I already said I believed Christians had the right to demonstate on how they felt on their side of the situation. I just feel that the way in which they are doing it is flawed and hurtful.Just never assume that the actions of a few reflect the total. While I hate the Sin, I hold no rancor nor animosity towards the person.

Antheridia, much thanks, we need more Christians like you in this world.

My name's Stephanie. Nice to meet you.

I already said I believed Christians had the right to demonstate on how they felt on their side of the situation. I just feel that the way in which they are doing it is flawed and hurtful.

May I enquire how being silent or loving one of your own gender is flawed or hurtful? I could understand if someone has a gay pride flag and is waving it in your face saying you loving the opposite gender is wrong. However, I find it very sad how homosexuals are treated in this country for just that, being homosexual. I know several whom are just cool people. For the record I also have many christian friends whom are just as cool, most would not condone what I stated in the first post.

Man I love my school.
Seriously, any gays in any part of the world who get shit at their school, tell their parents that they are moving to Sydney and going to Sydney Secondary College - Blackwattle Bay Campus.
It's year 11 and 12 only, and international students can attend, they just have to pay full fees instead of the government subsidised fees Australian Students get.
There is no homophobia here at all. There would be no point to a day of silence, because gays dont get harrassed, and there certainly wouldnt be any of that day of truth crap.
I've suffered a lot of crap for being gay in previous schools, but since I started at this school, there hasn't been one incidence where I've felt at all uncomfortable. There are heaps of totally open gays in the school, and nobody has a problem. Last year an openly gay friend of mine was school captain.
Seeing this crap just reminds me of how bad some people have it in other parts of the world.

Wow, this has to be the worst post I've ever posted on this forum, grammar and sentence structure wise. I'm tired.

May I enquire how being silent or loving one of your own gender is flawed or hurtful? I could understand if someone has a gay pride flag and is waving it in your face saying you loving the opposite gender is wrong. However, I find it very sad how homosexuals are treated in this country for just that, being homosexual. I know several whom are just cool people. For the record I also have many christian friends whom are just as cool, most would not condone what I stated in the first post.

I think the post you're responding to here was anti- "Day of Truth," not anti - "Day of Silence," but that's just how I read it. They're saying "Day of Truth" is hurtful to gays. I personally don't see how it is, as long as it's kept political, rather than personal.

Right, Pepe Dominquez. That was Anti-Day of Truth. Not Anti-Day of Silence. I participated in the Day of Silence.

I already said I believed Christians had the right to demonstate on how they felt on their side of the situation. I just feel that the way in which they are doing it is flawed and hurtful.

I agree with you, especially about the t-shirt. I think that issue was already addressed but I'll say it again: God does not hate gays, it is the sin that is stated. To wear a shirt like that goes beyond ignorance of what God is all about. I am a Christian, but in no way would I get hostile or ignorant regarding this very difficult issue. If you have God in your heart, you can't spew hate. I really feel sorry for those who felt they had to be in attack mode... please understand that is not what God teaches, and as you have already heard from some other true Christians, you know we will not treat you with disrespect. 'k?

The "Day of Truth" is hurtful because it is direct harassment of an entire group of people with the purpose of making them feel outsiders and trying to erode their self-esteem. Much like how another minority was treated up until the 1960s, only without as much violence.

Thanks.

All the Christians on this board have truely altered my previous view of most Christians. Almost all of the Christians at my school are either a. very hurtful or b. have no idea what they're talking about.

Thanks again.

that's all i was trying to do stephanie. those words weren't from me though, they were from what God taught.

Thanks.

All the Christians on this board have truely altered my previous view of most Christians. Almost all of the Christians at my school are either a. very hurtful or b. have no idea what they're talking about.

Thanks again.
That's because they're not christians. They're the children of children of children of christians, and each generation just thinks that they are christian because their parents are, and they just spit there shitty views in the name of christianity.
That's not saying I dont think christianity is a load of crap in itself, but it gets even worse when people just think they are and use that to back up their fucked up views.

Ok, but if they get rid of the Day of Truth, they must get rid of The Day of Silence in fairness. Can't let one group have a day and not the other now can we?

That's because they're not christians. They're the children of children of children of christians, and each generation just thinks that they are christian because their parents are, and they just spit there shitty views in the name of christianity.
That's not saying I dont think christianity is a load of crap in itself, but it gets even worse when people just think they are and use that to back up their fucked up views.Shouldn't make such assumptions... they could also be mis-led.

The Fundies are overdue for a Gay Columbine. That, or a Gay Power movement that starts declaring heterosexuality is abnormal and inferior. And maybe beat up a few straight people.

The Fundies are overdue for a Gay Columbine. That, or a Gay Power movement that starts declaring heterosexuality is abnormal and inferior. And maybe beat up a few straight people.


Onward pink panthers! <ducks as the rotten tomato flies at his head>

Ok, but if they get rid of the Day of Truth, they must get rid of The Day of Silence in fairness. Can't let one group have a day and not the other now can we?

The difference is in the way the days represent and manifest themselves. The Day of Silence is a non-violent way of expressing sorrow for the pain of oneself or others. It's a purely personal act that intereferes with no one else's personal affairs. Its impact is entirely symbolic.

The Day of "Truth," however, is different. First, one is representing religious belief as fact, when it in fact cannot be proven. I don't advertise my religion in your face and tell you you're going to hell because you don't agree with me. Second, and more specific, the "Truth" campaign at the very least implicitly advocates violence. Because the Day of Silence is designed to combat harassment of gays, and the Day of Truth is designed to counter it, the Day of Truth necessarily advocates the violence that the Day of Silence is designed to protest. The next Matthew Shepard (a gay man who was tortured to death because of his sexual orientation) could be on your conscience. Is that what God would want?

Anyway, it's kind of a non-sequitor to force people to speak. Logistically, how is it possible?

Ok, but if they get rid of the Day of Truth, they must get rid of The Day of Silence in fairness. Can't let one group have a day and not the other now can we?


Probably not. But if you examine the espoused reasoning behind the two, you will fidn some key differencse. The Day of Silence is about bringing to light the discimination and torture faced by gay youth. 84% of gay teens are almost daily verbally abused. 40% are the victims of frequent physical abuse. Something like 10% (and I'm less sure on that number) are hospitalized at some point because of being beaten. This is a serious problem, regardless of anyone's view on homosexuality.

The Day of Truth is about further marginalizing an already marginalized group. The organizers (Which BTW it is founded and organized by adults while the Day of Silence was founded and intiially organized by students) of the DoT admit that they are trying to show that they will not support or accept or tolerate homosexuality. Its about continuing abuse. While people are allowed to say what they want, Freedom of Speech does not exist in a vacuum. If, for instance, their propaganda were to cause someone to act violently against a homosexual, they could be complicit in the battery.

Granted, I'm not encouraging that the government intervene in either one. However, as a private citizen I have to say that the Day of Truth disgusts me and it just shows that the organizers behind it (let's call them the psychos) have no idea what the the Day of Silence is about and don't give a hoot to find out.

Ok, but if they get rid of the Day of Truth, they must get rid of The Day of Silence in fairness. Can't let one group have a day and not the other now can we?

I wish we could get rid of both days honestly. Unfortuantly, the Day of Silence was ment to call attention to the harassment that gay people receive. They Day of Truth was ment to be anti-gay, however, it has proven to be a day of bigotry. As I have said before, we are all human so lets get over this petty shit and move on.

For what its worth Ay Chihuahua, I can respect you for what you had said, too bad more christians aren't like you.

I wish we could get rid of both days honestly. Unfortuantly, the Day of Silence was ment to call attention to the harassment that gay people receive. They Day of Truth was ment to be anti-gay, however, it has proven to be a day of bigotry. As I have said before, we are all human so lets get over this petty shit and move on.

For what its worth Ay Chihuahua, I can respect you for what you had said, too bad more christians aren't like you.there are alot of Christians like Ay Chihuahua... they just tend to get overshadowed by the Zelots.

there are alot of Christians like Ay Chihuahua... they just tend to get overshadowed by the Zelots.

I know, it really is sad as it they give the good christians a bad name.

To anyone who was mocked for taking part in the day of silence.... that just plain sucks. I know you won't, but I gotta implore you not to reciprocate the favour on the "day of truth"... prove that you're better than the pseudo-christians that spew hate. I myself am transgendered (at the moment. Pre-hormone transsexual), and whilst I've not yet come up against bigotry and hatred first hand, I'm sure I will, and I know exactly what it's like to be bullied.
I'm glad to see that people are willing to press for equality.

I personally find homophobia disgusting and pointless.


What I don't seem to understand is; being gay is not something that affects other people in society, I mean, its your sexual prefrence, something that is done in the bedroom. I'm glad students have become active and denouced this hate-mongering and biogotorious (if thats a word) "Day of Truth".

One of the most despicable things I think of is calling something an abomination because their little "holy book" says that they are a "shame to god", gee, I wonder how that makes gays feel; especially ones that are religous?

I'm atheist by the way, personally heterosexual but support my gay comrades nevertheless. :D

I don't use the word "straight", it gives a negative connatation that gay people are somehow "crooked".

I know, it really is sad as it they give the good christians a bad name.


This is probably not going to be a popular viewpoint, however it is offered respectfully to the good Christians out there. However, perhaps all Christian would not have a bad name if the good ones would stand up and say "Hey no! You don't speak for all of us and you are wrong. This is not Christianity" instead of so often sitting back and being silent. I believe it was MLK who said something to the extent of "he who allows evil to happen is just as guilty as the one who perpetuates it."

I know, it really is sad as it they give the good christians a bad name.


Are zealots actually Christian? I mean... I don't consider the really militant muslims to follow anything resembling Islam (to me they've stolen the name of the God and a few terms and wrapped it up in a new ideology)
Same seems to be with the fundamentalist christians. They've constructed a hate giving ideology completely from their own minds, plucked christ from christianity, and given his name to it...

I could call a pig a dragon... it's still a pig.

You know. Let them have their days. Gays have been abused before and probably will be after. I'm personally not a homophobic moron like some people. I don't have a problem with gay people and I don't have a problem with straight people. I just have a problem with @$$%*&#! who don't know when to mind their own business. So in both cases people are just standing up for what they believe in and when you mess with someones beliefs you are messing with something that can lead to bad things, terrible things, war even. So you know its really a matter of perspective. I can see where both sides are coming from and if someone were gay in my school, I know of one person that would kick the gay persons butt but I know a lot of people who wouldn't let that happen and if it did the kid that attacked would be sent to jail by one of the many cops stationed around our school. Hell even the FBI agents (we've had a lot of bomb threats) that are there would stop it. So In my school they are safe. I just wish people would learn to mind their own business. Seriously, I don't care who you nail and I don't think anyone else does either. I actually think people who talk about who they screwed last night are pigs. It's sad that they are discriminated against. I don't think that they should be treated any different than anyone else. All they want is equality. Give it to them. That's really all anyone wants is equallity and acceptance. If someone wants a day for that then they can. If someone wants a day against that, then they can. But messing with peoples beliefs is dangerous.

Are zealots actually Christian? I mean... I don't consider the really militant muslims to follow anything resembling Islam (to me they've stolen the name of the God and a few terms and wrapped it up in a new ideology)
Same seems to be with the fundamentalist christians. They've constructed a hate giving ideology completely from their own minds, plucked christ from christianity, and given his name to it...

I could call a pig a dragon... it's still a pig.

Sadly enough, the Christian and Jewish religions actually call for all kinds of horrifying thing, like stoning women who lie about their virginity, stoning homosexuals, stoning children who rebel against their parents. The majority of Christians don't really realize all the horrors that spout from their religion.

Sadly enough, the Christian and Jewish religions actually call for all kinds of horrifying thing, like stoning women who lie about their virginity, stoning homosexuals, stoning children who rebel against their parents. The majority of Christians don't really realize all the horrors that spout from their religion.


Oh Oh I know this one! I've had Christians explain to me. Jesus came and changed all that so Christians don't have to stone anyone--except homosexuals. He kept that one around even though the verses on either side of it are gone, just that one stayed. . .why? Convenience for modern Christians?

Commando3']The Day of Silence is for sodomites and disrupts the education of humans.


[just kidding]
Where do you live so I can come massacre you and your family?
Please tell me!
Pweddy please?
With a cherry on top?
I've always wanted to kill some worthless redneck scum like you.
It's up to you to help my dreams come true
[/just kidding]

No but seriously, go fuck yourself. :mad:

Sadly enough, the Christian and Jewish religions actually call for all kinds of horrifying thing, like stoning women who lie about their virginity, stoning homosexuals, stoning children who rebel against their parents. The majority of Christians don't really realize all the horrors that spout from their religion.

And yet when Islam has at one point in history or another suggested similiar codes of criminal justice, the Western world goes all up in arms, points fingers and starts calling it a "wicked and evil religion."

This is probably not going to be a popular viewpoint, however it is offered respectfully to the good Christians out there. However, perhaps all Christian would not have a bad name if the good ones would stand up and say "Hey no! You don't speak for all of us and you are wrong. This is not Christianity" instead of so often sitting back and being silent. I believe it was MLK who said something to the extent of "he who allows evil to happen is just as guilty as the one who perpetuates it."however, whenever a Christian speaks and Identifies themselves as a Christian, the response from the masses is automatic. "Oh No... here comes the Preaching" that already set's the mind against anything to be said.


If a man is putting a bottle of poision to his lips, how would you stop him?

Would you Slap the bottle out of his hand? (there by appearing to Attack the person)

Would you shout? (and sound like you're berating the person)

Would you quietly inform him that he is drinking poision? (and hopes he hears you in time)

Would you let him Kill himself? (his choice... not your place to Impose your views on others.)


To most Christians, the ACT of Homosexuality is a sin. so if someone who confesses to be a practioner of the ACT of Homosexuality, what responses can there be?

Would you make the ACT difficult and in the extreme case [again the EXTREME CASE] get medeival on their collective butts? (beatings, isolation, and humiliation.)

Would you Shout? (and sound like you're berating, belittling and insulting the person)

Would you quietly inform him that he is doing is wrong in God's eyes? (and sound 'Holier than thou' and pompous. or, on the other end of the spectrum, Witiness by action.. being kind and patient... in other words be a friend.)

Would you let him continue sinning? (his choice... not your place to Impose your views on others and, as you say, by letting it happen, sin yourself.)


the top to gains the most attention and thus colors everyone's perception. but realize, there are the other two groups quietly trying to do what they are called to do.

the people are there... quietly whispering in your ears, quietly showing by example. the thing is, you have to filter out the noise.

Nekone, the thing is, I and I am sure many others simply don't beleave in hell.
Now, when someone does threaten me with going to hell or saying that I am a sinner, I see it as them threatening me. Eg, You will ether see it my way, or you will be punished. As I see it, as long as you are not hurting anyone in your actions, then there isn't a problem.

<snip>

You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that Christians have to say homosexuality is okay. And I'm not saying that they physically have to stand up and silence the psychos. All I'm saying is that Christians would have a much better name if the silent majority would take some responsibilty for the way their religion is being used and speak out to say "We do not approve of judging people, we do not approve of promoting violence or social intolerance of homosexuals. We think their behavior is wrong, but that is between them and God. In this world, we should mind our own business, live and let live, and do unto others as we would want them to do to us."

im sure gald i live in canada im prety sure that this "day of truth" crap would be ilegal and labeled hate crime,on a slightly related topic that crazy anti gay crusade is banned in canada and that pastor that leads them could face seriouse jail time if found in canada.

Rudabaga we have a preacher in Canada doing the same thing. It's not a hate crime bud.

When people invoke free speech and say that if one side gets to speak out, so does the other, they ignore one crucial point. This is not a case of one side holding a rally screaming "Homosexuality is sick and disgusting and you are all going to hell" while the other side gets to hold their own rally screaming "Heterosexuality is sick and disgusting and you are all going to hell".

What is really happening here is one side is holding a rally saying "Please leave me alone" (note they are not attacking anyone, but defending themselves) while the other side screams "You are sick and disgusting" (directly attacking).

Defending oneself against constant attacks is condoned in our society. Attacking someone who has done nothing to harm you is not.

Nekone, the thing is, I and I am sure many others simply don't beleave in hell.
Now, when someone does threaten me with going to hell or saying that I am a sinner, I see it as them threatening me. Eg, You will ether see it my way, or you will be punished. As I see it, as long as you are not hurting anyone in your actions, then there isn't a problem.Exactly... the person drinking the poison isn't huring anyone but himself (if he is knowingly taking the poison) but the point I was making was how to stop him? the "Loud and Proud" is the most attention getting and, unfortunatly, makes the person "targetted" (for lack of better word) defensive. I don't like being threatened either. I wonder why you use "threaten me with going to Hell" was not the other alternative shown to you?

You seem to have missed my point entirely. I'm not saying that Christians have to say homosexuality is okay. And I'm not saying that they physically have to stand up and silence the psychos. All I'm saying is that Christians would have a much better name if the silent majority would take some responsibilty for the way their religion is being used and speak out to say "We do not approve of judging people, we do not approve of promoting violence or social intolerance of homosexuals. We think their behavior is wrong, but that is between them and God. In this world, we should mind our own business, live and let live, and do unto others as we would want them to do to us." but as you said... if you allow evil to exsist, are you not committing evil yourself. to a Christian, replace Evil with Sin. to non-believers, replace Evil with Crime.

there are many denominations of Christianity. yet eveyone takes the Catholic viewpoint as the end all be all only way to worship God. Ever notice that for most people here, Christianity = Catholics. No mention of the Baptists, Prodestants(sp?), Methodists, Jewish, Islamic (Yes, they worship the same God, not the same way, but the same God), Mormons...

we, as Christians, all have different methods of witnessing. and they are out there... if you are really curious... seek them out.

as to my posion example, all the methods are effective... even the last, (should he survive the poisoning) the question is which method would you listen to... and what you would choose may not be what others choose.

<snip again>

You have again missed my point. Fortunantely I don't care enough to continue discussing the matter.

Exactly... the person drinking the poison isn't huring anyone but himself (if he is knowingly taking the poison) but the point I was making was how to stop him? the "Loud and Proud" is the most attention getting and, unfortunatly, makes the person "targetted" (for lack of better word) defensive. I don't like being threatened either. I wonder why you use "threaten me with going to Hell" was not the other alternative shown to you?


I think the better question is does he want to be stopped? The anology isn't a very good represenative as I have stated before, I don't beleave in hell. I think it as a human invention to help persuade those who don't follow your code. I guess I am not understanding what you imply by saying "I don't like being threatened either. I wonder why you use "threaten me with going to Hell" was not the other alternative shown to you?" . The only reason why I have brought that up in the first place is I have been threatened with going to hell before. I find this offencive because it is like saying "except my way or elce something bad will happen to you". For the most part, unless someone is hurting someone elce, I see no reason why one needs to be called on thier actions. This is why I am resentful when someone tells me I am sinning when I am doing something that is not hurting anyone. As I would not tell you that you are wrong unless you are harming another. This is why I began this thread in the first place.

don't you think at this rate, in the future people will be saying having public sex is okay?

don't you think at this rate, in the future people will be saying having public sex is okay?

But why, inherently isn't it? that's some artificial moral to do with modesty or similar we cooked up. There's nothing actually wrong with it. It doesn't hurt anyone. Well... depending on where they do it, I don't imagine the kerb would be comfortable, but I digress.

don't you think at this rate, in the future people will be saying having public sex is okay?

Sure, maybe it does. Doesn't that mean that society is willing to change its attitudes over time as our culture changes?
Isn't being able to change your attitude a good thing?

Not saying that we should allow it or not.
We certainly should accept that, if the situation is right, and there is no harm being caused, and potential benefit, then we should be able to allow it.

I'm sure that a hundred years ago people said "don't you think at this rate, in the future people will be saying having sex out of wedlock is okay?"
or "people getting a divorce is okay"
or even "women being paid the same as men is okay"

cultures change. Attitudes lag behind, but need to change too. Regardless of whether the current attitude about homosexualities is right or not, we should be able to rexamine it, and decide if it's still appropriate or if it should change.
This is equally good if the current attitude is right. It just reaffirms that we were right all along. If it's wrong, do we really want to keep it?

I think the main difference between any Christian (Foursquare, Baptist, Free Presbyterian, Locked-Up Presbyterian, Methodist, Mormon, Seventh-Day Adventist, Pentecostalist, Charismatic, Evangelical, Nazarene, Lutheran, Episcopalian (C. of E.), Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Snake Handler, Jehova's Witness, and whoever else I missed...jeez, there's lotsa factions here...who's right?) and these jackasses who are prone to lording their religious views over anyone else perceived to be out of line is this:

The good folks in here who have stood up for the real Christianity are Christians. Those who oppress by word, deed, clothing or conspiracy are Puritans. A Puritan (as Ambrose Bierce would have it) is someone who lives under the constant fear that somewhere, somehow, someone is having a good time.

Let me attempt to clear this up with a question:

Is it anyone else's business but mine what I read, eat, watch, hear, shag, or believe? The one and only correct answer is --

NO!

The Christians out there, like those kind souls in this thread, will understand this and, while nobly fearing for gays' souls, will not go out of their way to marginalize them, harass them or in any way intrude upon their privacy.

The Puritans out there (like [National Sozialist]3 Commando) will wear shirts that read "God hates queers" or, like Fred Phelps and his Topeka Twits, go find any production of The Laramie Project and protest it with signs that say "Matthew Shepard, 4 years in hell!" Like they did when Central Washington University (2000 miles away in Ellensburg, WA and my alma mater) put on that play in 2001. These zealot Puritans just cannot STAND that there is any kind of acceptance or even allowance to exist in the world of anything they don't endorse.

Now, that said, are there flaming queers out there who annoyingly and selfishly blare out to all those who really don't care or wish to remain untrammeled all about how much they love to anally spelunk their boyfriends? Yes there are, and they are, truth be told, no better than the Puritans. Shock value is the tool of small minds and that's what we deal with on both sides of the fence. A zealot, even one you agree with, is still a zealot, and they're not known for either common sense or common decency.

My point is this: since it's none of your business what I or anyone else besides yourself does, so long as nobody else is harmed -- LEAVE EVERYONE ELSE ALONE. Hate the sin? When the sinner asks you about that, THEN you can witness all you want. Apart from that, pray for the sinner to see the error of their ways and rejoice should it come to pass. Other than that, read your own Bible and do unto others.

It's such a natural and beautiful thing to see a Christian who knows how to live as Godly as their humanity will allow -- my experience with Christianity has been mostly positive because of these people. I would see them be how they are without knowing they were Christians, and then, upon expressing to them my admiration for whatever it was that I admired about them, they'd politely inform me that it was God who helped them get there. THAT is convincing. THAT is powerful. THAT is effective. Compare that to being bludgeoned into a state of anti-religion by someone who thinks it's their personal task to save the world (or their corner of it). Folks, there IS no comparison. Someone once told me that God doesn't want idiots for followers, nor does He really clamor for inherited dogmatics who are Christians because mommy and daddy told them they were on the way to church.

I was left to my own religious devices after being baptised Episcopalian. For most of my youth and adolescence, I was a confirmed atheist. My twenties saw me move toward agnosticism. In my 30s, I am convinced of the existence of the Divine, and consider myself a Deist. The point is I'm reading, learning, asking and seeking answers as opposed to just sitting on my spiritual arse and spouting a lot of nonsense like some ecclesiastical parrot.

So that's my rant. Please don't trip over my soap box on the way out of this post.

Peace.

None of you really believe the "Day of Silence" has anything to do with homosexuality, do you? There is a definite political agenda being advanced with this sort of thing, be it homosexual marriage or affirmative action or some sort of "alternative" education. Maybe a rude %0.1 of the population actively harasses gays, but politics is the game here, not some effort to stem the homosexual equivalent of race-baiting.

I didn't see a single demonstrator taking part in the "Day of Silence" today, nor did I see any counter-protesters. But I don't expect one group to make a political statement and their opponents to just stand by.. If one side forces the issue, the other should rightly respond.

Excuse me? .1% my ass, don't pull numbers out your ears and act like it's real. Crimes commited against people even by the thought of homosexulity are really common, and I lose count how many times I'm called a fag and a pussy and have to sit by whilst everything not cool is "gay"

Excuse me? .1% my ass, don't pull numbers out your ears and act like it's real. Crimes commited against people even by the thought of homosexulity are really common, and I lose count how many times I'm called a fag and a pussy and have to sit by whilst everything not cool is "gay"

Exactly. Well put.

Excuse me? .1% my ass, don't pull numbers out your ears and act like it's real. Crimes commited against people even by the thought of homosexulity are really common, and I lose count how many times I'm called a fag and a pussy and have to sit by whilst everything not cool is "gay"

Even if it was .1%, it would still be too much. Any hate crime is a horrible stain on the culture we live in. I agree with everything you said though. Just inserting my 1.3 pence. (or thereabouts)

I'm truly disturbed by our nation.

The 'Day of Truth', as the ADF is calling it, rings of hate to me, something that is supposed to be frowned upon these days. If you hate someone by their race and act upon that hatred, you're prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If you do the same because of their religion, you're prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

But by their sexual preferences? Nothing. Why? 'It's in our religion.'

This has been something that's bothered me for awhile, how many Christians will take parts of the bible and use them to mold our society. For example, Levictus 18:22 and 20:13 ('Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination' and 'If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them', respectively).

However, these people completely ignore several other parts of those chapters and even parts of the verses they quote, because they don't gel with their opinion on how our world should be. They ignore massive sections of books that don't meet with the way they wish the world to be run. Leviticus 15:18 - 30 is stated as a law that all women shall remain hidden from public view during her period, and on the seventh day she is to sacrifice two white doves to God as an apology for being so dirty, or be killed. Leviticus 19:27 says it is a sin to trim ones beard or the hair on the side of your head. But these are not laws that these people uphold.

The old testament is a history of our world, and Moses' laws were only his laws. They were not the divine laws. If one is to argue the semantics of divine law, then there are only ten divine laws, many of which people seem to ignore as well. Accepting the word of Moses as divine law is idolatry by the bible, as it makes Moses' word the word of God.

But that's all hogwash in my eyes. One can argue religion until they're blue in the face. But what one can't argue is that bigotry is bigotry. Not thirty years back, this sort of fight went on with the Civil Rights movement. Men and women were persecuted for the color of their skin, and for what reason?

This is what's going on right now. The prejudice has changed slightly, but it's still the same. One group hates another group and treats them as exiles of the community. 'They are not like us, they do not belong. We have text that says as much.' We had laws that said the same of African Americans, but look how that ended up.

Ah, but that drags religion back into this. But look at what humanity has reaped for the battles it has fought in the name of a religion. Throughout history, people have killed and fought over a religion, during our more barbaric times. The Spanish Inquistion was to kill heretics of the Catholic church; people who were not right by their religion. 9/11 was the result of people fighting for their religion.

And what benefits has man reaped from such acts? Nothing of substance, nothing that has altered history to give us a glowing example of humanity. Land gained, land lost, power lost, power gained. Millions upon millions of people killed throughout the world's history, because their religion demanded it. Their religion said 'These people are wrong'.

But that is not how we, as a civilized people, should act. We are the United States of America, dedicated to the liberty of our people. And liberty is the right to live as one chooses, without being constrained. It's freedom from unjust and undue government control. None of which was given to the African American people, and none of which is being given to the homosexual community.

And, should one consider homosexuality a free choice, what of religion? Your religion is a free choice as well, is it not? You are not born and forced to be any denomination. The others are out there for the picking. What right does one have to discriminate someone by their choices? It's bad enough to discriminate by something one cannot control, such as skin color.

What are we if not savages for condemning a person merely by their sexual preferences, and limiting their ability to enjoy the things we as Americans enjoy every day? And what image are our children seeing when their fathers curse and yell about homosexuals? What will they think when a homosexual student is beaten at their school, or insulted and mocked for his choice? What if they join in? Think of how these people feel. Think of how it'd be like to have people go out of their way to make your life miserable almost every single day. Think of coming out of work one day, where you're normal as can be and function the same as any other human, to find the tires on your car slashed and the windshield busted, and slurs scratched into the paint or painted on. And think of the children who do lesser forms of this to their classmates.

Hate begets hate. Intolerance sires more intolerance. And whether one is Christian or not, one should understand that hate and intolerance bring nothing good to the world/ Does it hurt man so bad to be tolerant of those different? In the grand scheme of things, campaigning against those who do not share your beliefs will not bring you into the Kingdom of Heaven. Turn thy cheek, and let them pave their own destiny. Even if you do not approve of who they are and what they do, tolerate them. It makes for a better world, and that's what we want for our children and grandchildren - a better world where they can live free and without worry, no matter who they are or the choices they make.

And that was extremely long.

Edit: And looking back, a lot of these points were covered already. Adurr, way to move fast there, Jimbo.

That made me do one of those agreeable "mmm that's right!" noises.

Hey...nice first post

Excuse me? .1% my ass, don't pull numbers out your ears and act like it's real. Crimes commited against people even by the thought of homosexulity are really common, and I lose count how many times I'm called a fag and a pussy and have to sit by whilst everything not cool is "gay"

Pfft. I am talking about actual crime, not kids demonizing anyone who isn't like them. Kids do that to everyone. Group acceptance is basically the prime goal of adolescents, and I don't doubt openly-gay people have a hard time around that age.

However, I'm talking about politics, and that means I'm talking about adults here. As in, not the playground at recess.

Even if it was .1%, it would still be too much. Any hate crime is a horrible stain on the culture we live in. I agree with everything you said though. Just inserting my 1.3 pence. (or thereabouts)

Too much, yes. But you can find %0.1 that hate anyone or anything. That doesn't constitute a parade for every pole, czech, bolivian, or transvestite in the land. It could go on ad infinitum.

Too much, yes. But you can find %0.1 that hate anyone or anything. That doesn't constitute a parade for every pole, czech, bolivian, or transvestite in the land. It could go on ad infinitum.

Of course. I was just being deep. Besides, I still agree with myself, despite the minute chance of it ever actually being solved.

And I do agree with the parades, until it gets to such a stupidly low level. Things aren't equal, so it needs to continue. After they are... what's wrong with extravagance? I wouldn't mind a heterosexual pride parade, or a gay pride parade.... if everything was equal, would just be fun, no?

Of course. I was just being deep. Besides, I still agree with myself, despite the minute chance of it ever actually being solved.

And I do agree with the parades, until it gets to such a stupidly low level. Things aren't equal, so it needs to continue. After they are... what's wrong with extravagance? I wouldn't mind a heterosexual pride parade, or a gay pride parade.... if everything was equal, would just be fun, no?

Sure, as long as I'm not footing the bill via taxes, parades every day of the week are fine. It's usually a major cost though, and all firemen and police are required to comply, traffic shuts down, people get drunk on the street and break windows, etc., taxes end up being raised at the end of the year, and so on, and so on. ;)

The thing that sickens me is men sticking their penises into each others anuses.

The thing that sickens me is men sticking their penises into each others anuses.

All politics aside.. yes, that is pretty disturbing. But then, there's always someone with almost any fetish you can think of.

The thing that sickens me is men sticking their penises into each others anuses.

And this is more sickening than men sticking their penii into women's anuses?

The thing that sickens me is men sticking their penises into each others anuses.

Then stop watching them! :p

Actually, anal sex with males is a lot less pointless than anal sex with females; men have their g-point in the anus (the prostate) while women (usually) don't derive much sexual pleasure from such intercourse. It must be designed that way for SOME reason.

Pfft. I am talking about actual crime, not kids demonizing anyone who isn't like them. Kids do that to everyone. Group acceptance is basically the prime goal of adolescents, and I don't doubt openly-gay people have a hard time around that age.

However, I'm talking about politics, and that means I'm talking about adults here. As in, not the playground at recess.

Openly gay people have a hard time at any age and it's people like you who sit there and go "well it's a natural part of the aging process" that lets kids think it's okay. So what age does it actually start to matter to you?

You just seem like one of those adults who forgot what it was like to be a teenager, or a teenager who covers his ass by saying everyone else does it too. And yes there is alot of 'actual crime' that is because of homosexuality and in a country with as many crimes as yours, I'm 100% sure it's more than .0%

Actually, anal sex with males is a lot less pointless than anal sex with females; men have their g-point in the anus (the prostate) while women (usually) don't derive much sexual pleasure from such intercourse. It must be designed that way for SOME reason.

I probably could have lived the rest of my life without knowing that, and died a happy man.

That aside, this "day of truth" thing has me only the slightest bit conflicted. Free speech should be respected, not hate speech, I believe much of what I've heard of this "day of truth" crosses that line and spits on it.

If a religion actually advocates violence and hate towards a demographic group, I decry that that religion as flawed or unjust. Just as international terrorists use fear and intimidation in the name of religion, I believe these domestic terrorists hide behind the same freedoms. These people are no better than the Muslims who cry for the deaths of all foreigners, and vice versa.

Frankly, the "god hates fags" shirts enrage me, and I am tempted to simply use violence to speak for me should I ever encounter one. I can honestly say I would probably lose my judgement if confronted by someone with such an inflammatory shirt on. My old schools fortunately were fairly LGBT friendly, so my support of such groups was the norm, rather than the exception. I never personally saw such a dispicable attitude from my classmates, so I did not have to test such limits of toleration.

I probably could have lived the rest of my life without knowing that, and died a happy man.

That aside, this "day of truth" thing has me only the slightest bit conflicted. Free speech should be respected, not hate speech, I believe much of what I've heard of this "day of truth" crosses that line and spits on it.

If a religion actually advocates violence and hate towards a demographic group, I decry that that religion as flawed or unjust. Just as international terrorists use fear and intimidation in the name of religion, I believe these domestic terrorists hide behind the same freedoms. These people are no better than the Muslims who cry for the deaths of all foreigners, and vice versa.

Frankly, the "god hates fags" shirts enrage me, and I am tempted to simply use violence to speak for me should I ever encounter one. I can honestly say I would probably lose my judgement if confronted by someone with such an inflammatory shirt on. My old schools fortunately were fairly LGBT friendly, so my support of such groups was the norm, rather than the exception. I never personally saw such a dispicable attitude from my classmates, so I did not have to test such limits of toleration.


The "Day of Truth" counter-protest was sponsored by Alliance Defense Fund, not the bigots in Kansas with their "God Hates ____" stuff. ADF has been quite helpful with freedom of religion cases, and has fought the more oppressive ACLU opinions in various states before, and has won many suits. This thing, however, steps a bit too far into the political, I think. However, I respect the group, so if the gay lobby wants to recruit High School kids, the opposition should have their advocates too, I suppose.

I probably could have lived the rest of my life without knowing that, and died a happy man.

That aside, this "day of truth" thing has me only the slightest bit conflicted. Free speech should be respected, not hate speech, I believe much of what I've heard of this "day of truth" crosses that line and spits on it.

If a religion actually advocates violence and hate towards a demographic group, I decry that that religion as flawed or unjust. Just as international terrorists use fear and intimidation in the name of religion, I believe these domestic terrorists hide behind the same freedoms. These people are no better than the Muslims who cry for the deaths of all foreigners, and vice versa.

Frankly, the "god hates fags" shirts enrage me, and I am tempted to simply use violence to speak for me should I ever encounter one. I can honestly say I would probably lose my judgement if confronted by someone with such an inflammatory shirt on. My old schools fortunately were fairly LGBT friendly, so my support of such groups was the norm, rather than the exception. I never personally saw such a dispicable attitude from my classmates, so I did not have to test such limits of toleration.
Well now maybe you can die a happier man ;) haha

Yeah my school in general is pretty good, but about 60% of hetero males will still bully gays etc.

I rather like the "Sex is for fags" shirts lol

yeah, and women shouldn't be allowed to reveal their ankles! SIN SIN SIN!! SODOMITES, ALL OF THEM!!!
Good.
They should also be bare foot and Pregnant!

I was forced to endure this for six years until I left that school system. I could only imagine what a student whom is gay would have to endure. Now we have people whom are trying to help these students only to have a group further provoke the harassment.

Well, I was going to say something, but really I'm far too distracted by the jarring misuse of the word 'whom' to offer anything constructive.

I believe that part of this problem of bigotry from the Bible is caused by misinterpretation. The Bible states that "a man shall not lie with a man as he would with a woman-it is an abomination" (I know that this isn't right, I'm quoting it from memory, but you get the gist).

Anyway, this part is not about homosexuality. It is physically impossible for a man to make love to another man in the same way as he would with a woman, as men do not have vaginas. A man may make love to a man in a different way to how he would with a woman (read anal sex), and then no sin is involved.

Therefore, there is no possible sin in this passage, except possibly transexuality (note that I don't believe that transexuality is wrong). However, this would not have been known about at the time, and probably attributed to demons.

I conclude that this was probably just a joke from the author which got out of hand.

ps. :fluffle: for all those people who stand up to the bigots. The Day of Truth and the Day of Silence are one and the same.

Well, I was going to say something, but really I'm far too distracted by the jarring misuse of the word 'whom' to offer anything constructive.

I suppose if what you had to say was important you would have said it. ;)

It's a little thing called freedom of speech. Yes, free to be a bigot, or anything else on the T-shirt. Nothing says we have to like the message, or go along with it. But they have a right to speak as much as anyone else.

Like Bottle says, we'll know who the assholes are.

Openly gay people have a hard time at any age and it's people like you who sit there and go "well it's a natural part of the aging process" that lets kids think it's okay. So what age does it actually start to matter to you?

You just seem like one of those adults who forgot what it was like to be a teenager, or a teenager who covers his ass by saying everyone else does it too. And yes there is alot of 'actual crime' that is because of homosexuality and in a country with as many crimes as yours, I'm 100% sure it's more than .0%


Just a few numbers from the FBI's Uniform Crime Reporting Program: to back this up
-In 1999 there were 7,876 hate crimes committed in 48 states and D.C. that participated in the participated in the study.
-Of these 4,295 were racially motivated with over 50% (2,958) of those being against black people who made up 12.3% of the population in 2000 (according to www.census.gov--my apologies for not having the time to find the info. for the same year)
-1,411 hate crimes were committed against people for religious purposes with the vast majority (1,109) committed against people of the Jewish faith and less than 100 committed against Christians (taken as Catholic + Protestant). The Census does not gather information on religious affiliation, however I think its a safe estimate that Christians make up a vastly larger percentage of the population than Jews do.
-1,317 hate crimes were committed because of sexual orientation. Of these the breakdown is:
*915 against homosexual males
*187 against homosexual females
*178 generally anti-homosexual (I need to look up what this means)
*23 anti-bisexual
*Total: 1,303 hate crimes against homosexuals.

*There were only 14 hate crimes committed against heterosexuals.

Since homosexuals make up 10% of the population (by most estimates, however they *DO* range from about 2% to 20% and I do admit there is variance here) and the population was the 2000 census was 281,421,906, that comes to 1,303 crimes committed against 28,142,191 people or 4.6x10^-5 crimes per person.

This number is orders of magnitude larger than thee same value for heterosexuals (assuming their composition of 90% of society) which comes to 5.5 x10^-8. The number of crimes committed against gays is extremely simliar to those committed against African Americans (with a number of 8.5x10^-5).

These are national statistics from the FBI and can be found at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/99hate.pdf. THIS IS ONLY REPRESENTATIVE OF MAJOR CRIMES AND SAYS NOTHING OF THE HARSSMENT FACED DAILY BY GAY PEOPLE (or any other minority). The calculations are my own, but I have tried to show how I did them so that someone can check after me if they wish. Basically what I've shown here is that homosexuals are one of the greatest recipients of violence nationwide, on a level with African Americans and Jews (and I would imagine women as well).

So basically if anyone tells you that homosexuals don't face danger, violence, physical harm, or discrimination--tell them they are full of crap.

The "Day of Truth" counter-protest was sponsored by Alliance Defense Fund, not the bigots in Kansas with their "God Hates ____" stuff. ADF has been quite helpful with freedom of religion cases, and has fought the more oppressive ACLU opinions in various states before, and has won many suits. This thing, however, steps a bit too far into the political, I think. However, I respect the group, so if the gay lobby wants to recruit High School kids, the opposition should have their advocates too, I suppose.


You seem to be confused. The Day of Silene was founded and organized by high school students. It was not an outside force coming in recruiting kids. Further, while the Day of Truth may not offically have the God Hates Fags shirts, you can believe that they have been worn (seen them myself today). The only purpose behind the Day of Truth is to spread hate. The purpose behind the Day of Silence is to protest hate. You don't see them wearing shirts saying "God hates Christians" or "Bigots burn in hell" now do you?

And tell me one thing the Alliance Defense Fund has done for actualy freedom of religion. To my knowledge, the only thing it works for is Christian dominance of the government and laws enshrining one sect of Christianity's belief against gay marriage.

ps. :fluffle: for all those people who stand up to the bigots. The Day of Truth and the Day of Silence are one and the same.

You had me right up to this point. You seem to be seeing that the Day of Silence which is about ending torment of gay youth is the same thing as the Day of Truth which is about spreading hatred of homosexuals? One is against bigotry, the other is for it. How are these one and the same?

Like Bottle says, we'll know who the assholes are.

Somehow I missed her saying that, but I like it! I'm going to have to steal it and use it for my own.

I believe that part of this problem of bigotry from the Bible is caused by misinterpretation. The Bible states that "a man shall not lie with a man as he would with a woman-it is an abomination" (I know that this isn't right, I'm quoting it from memory, but you get the gist).

The problem isn't misinterpretation. It's horrible mistranslation.

The verse actually says "A man may not lie on a woman's bed, for it is an abomination." In the ancient Hebrew culture, menstruating women were unclean. Because of this, when a woman menstruated, she had to sleep in a seperate bed, called a woman's bed.

There IS a verse in Deuteronomy about women's menustration, but the common quoted verses are from Leviticus. I mentioned them in my previous post.

'Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination' - Levictus 18:22
'If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them' - 20:13

It also speaks against laying with animals and women related to you, be it by marriage or blood. 'Abomination' means something that is 'vile'. In honesty, that's more of saying 'Ew, dude, don't put your penis there.'

Of course, most religious people persuing this issue only quote 18:22, since quoting 20:13 would hurt their position more. Which only helps to prove that these people aren't truly being Christians, as if you were a true Christian and wanted to follow the bible as law, you'd follow ALL of it. Which is extremely ironic when these people follow these 'laws' but ignore what's been stated as the ten truly divine laws.

Yeah, bubba, I'm sure God wants you persecuting those you think are wrong while breaking several of the commandmants. I'm sure he'll forgive you because of your little inquisition. For the record, saying 'goddamn' is against those ten laws, as is longing for something someone else has and disrespecting your parents and yelling at them. It's truly funny to me to see someone parading against homosexuals while saying, 'I hate my goddamned parents, they don't understand me and I wish they'd just die.' Real Christian of you there, sport.

The bible isn't meant to be the dictating law in our society - it's stories meant to guide and teach how we should live life. The Old Testament is more of a history of our world, showing the dark times we came from and the drastic measures we took. The New Testament is what is meant to be followed and upheld; the teachings of Christ, who tells us to love our neighbor and treat others as we wish to be treated.

I honestly don't recall the verse where Christ says, 'Hey, dudes, you know what? Take everyting I and my Father have said or done, and completely mangle it to further your goals, while completely ignoring Our teachings of love and tolerance!'

It's my opinion (and I believe it's somewhere in the book) that religion is a personal thing, something that should be held in your heart and shared with those closest to you.. not shoved in the face of everyone you think is bad or wrong, or used to claim your supieority over anyone. 'Well, I'm a Christian, and I don't sin, I'm going to heaven and you aren't!' just makes you sound like an asshole. The ten divine laws are not laws that govern this nation, though. We are a free nation. If you want them to govern your life, that's your choice and your duty, not Joe Public's.

Allowing others the freedoms that you have won't make you any less of a Christian, so long as you stick to what you believe is right. Be tolerant, even if you don't approve, as the bible says. If this is seen as a strike against you, turn the other cheek. Another person's sin (perceived or real) is not your sin. That's between them and the Lord.

The Crystal Rose, that is one of the best things I've ever read. Have you considered writing a book? I'm being completely serious when I say that.

isn't a person a Christian if they simply believe Jesus is the son of God and he died for our sins, etc.?
So by a "real" Christian, you mean a well-practicing/model Christian...?

Anyway, doen't this whole Homosexual issue entirely up to whether a person is intrinsically (sp?) homosexual or if it's a choice? :confused:

You had me right up to this point. You seem to be seeing that the Day of Silence which is about ending torment of gay youth is the same thing as the Day of Truth which is about spreading hatred of homosexuals? One is against bigotry, the other is for it. How are these one and the same?

Sorry if I was confusing. What I meant was this:

The "Day of Truth" contains no truth whatsoever. It is a day of rabidly, violently homophobic propaganda.

The Day of Silence stands up for the basic truth that people are equal and should be treated as such. As it fights for that truth, it is far more a Day of Truth than the bigoted gay-bashing festival currently going by that name.

There IS a verse in Deuteronomy about women's menustration, but the common quoted verses are from Leviticus. I mentioned them in my previous post.

'Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind; it is abomination' - Levictus 18:22
'If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them' - 20:13

Those are the mistranslated verses I'm talking about. If you look into it, you'll find that all Biblical verses that appear to condemn homosexuality don't, and indeed are the result of mistranslation, or, in the case of the story of Sodom, confusion with a mistranslated word.

Those are the mistranslated verses I'm talking about. If you look into it, you'll find that all Biblical verses that appear to condemn homosexuality don't, and indeed are the result of mistranslation, or, in the case of the story of Sodom, confusion with a mistranslated word.


Ehm...any chance I could have an example of such mistranslation, or have they already been posted in this thread? I'm not religious, but I am curious to see.

I suppose if what you had to say was important you would have said it. ;)


Well, it wasn't as important as nitpicking grammar, which, let's face it, is a much more righteous cause than... er... what was this thread about, again?