NationStates Jolt Archive

A protest raged on a courthouse lawn,
Round a makeshift stage as they charged on.
Fifteen hundred or more they say,
Had come to burn a Flag that day.

A boy held up the folded Flag,
Cursed it, and called it a dirty rag.
An old man pushed through the angry crowd,
With a rusty shotgun shouldered proud.

His uniform jacket was old and tight,
He had polished each button, shiny and bright.
He crossed that stage with a soldier's grace,
Til he and the boy stood face to face.

Freedom of Speech; the old man said,
Is worth dying for and good men are dead,
So you can stand on this courthouse lawn,
And talk us down from dusk to dawn,
But before any Flag gets burned today,
This old man's going to have his say!

My father died on a foreign shore,
In a war they said would end all war.
But Tommy and I wasn't even full grown,
Before we fought in a war of our own.
And Tommy died on Iwo Jima's beach,
In the shadow of a hill he couldn't quite reach
Where five good men raised this Flag so high,
That the entire world could see it fly.

I got this bum leg that I still drag,
Fighting for this same old Flag.
Now there's just one shot in this old gun,
So now it's time to decide which one,

Which one of you will follow our lead,
To stand and die for what you believe?
For as sure as there is a rising sun,
You'll burn in Hell 'fore this Flag burns, son.

Now the riot just never came to pass.
The crowd got quiet and that can of gas,
Got set aside as they walked away
To talk about what they heard this day.

And the boy who had called it a dirty rag,
Handed the old soldier the folded Flag.
So the battle of the Flag this day was won
By a tired old soldier with a rusty gun,
Who for one last time, had to show to some,
This Flag may fade, but the colors don't run.

Author Unknown

Yawn. Texas v. Johnson protects that right. Read the court opinion before posting flamebait again.

Yawn. Texas v. Johnson protects that right. Read the court opinion before posting flamebait again.

How is it flamebait?

Let me be crystal clear on this, I support your rights to burn flags, books, or live kittens [that's protected by a SCOTUS ruling, too. (Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah (1993) , if you're wondering). However, I, and the writer of that poem, have the Constitutional right to criticize the burning of live kittens, books, or flags.

How is it flamebait?

Let me be crystal clear on this, I support your rights to burn flags, books, or live kittens [that's protected by a SCOTUS ruling, too. (Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah (1993) , if you're wondering). However, I, and the writer of that poem, have the Constitutional right to criticize the burning of live kittens, books, or flags.


Really sharp answer. I don't care for the poem, though. The idea that anyone would die for a flag is just so sad and empty. The WWII and Korean Conflict veterans I have talked to about it have all expressed that they served because they felt it was their duty as citizens and because they felt that it was appropriate for America to help weaker nations under attack. Those reasons speak to my heart. I really cannot express the depth of my love and respect for men who put their lives on the line for those high ideal sas very young people. On the other hand, if they said they had done it for any flag, I would think they had been foolhardy.

As for me, I believe that a flag - any flag - is a symbol. A logo, if you wish, symbolising the values of the country it stands for. "Fighting for your flag' and "fighting for your country" is very similar in fact. Consider the meaning that is assigned [or was assigned] to raising your flag on a place one wishes to capture during a war. This is not just in American culture. For example, you must have heard of the Ink Flag. When the IDF troops seized what is now Eilat, they had no flag on hand and thus they had to resort to drawing one on a sheet with ink. The picture of the Ink Flag being raised over Eilat is now in every history textbook on the time. It's THAT important.

Or try this. When Santa Anna seized the Alamo, he sent the flag of the New Orleans Grays. Four soldiers died trying to capture it [Consider about 600 Mexican soldiers were killed throughout the attack]. It was THAT important.

A flag of a nation, I repeat, is a symbol of it's values. America's flag is a symbol of values that are international in their scope and meaning [unlike, say, Israel's or India's flag]. It uniquely stands for the idea that not only people HAVE rights [that's not unique, that's part of every sane nation's constitution now] but that also that rights are innate and natural, and that even an utter repeal of every law in the world would not be able to take them away. To burn that flag is to deliberately desecrate a symbol of THAT idea.

That's why I oppose burning US Flags, and I am not even a citizen or inhabitant of that great nation.

I agree wholeheartedly with Allanea, only he said it better, as I'm not good with words. :)

The flag is a symbol of the Greatest Nation on God's Green Earth. When you raise the Flag, you raise the Nation and its Ideals and Traditions, and pronounce to the world you support everything it stands for.

When you burn the flag in a desecrating manner, you are announcing that you hate the Nation, its Ideals, and its Traditions, which is why I want Texas vs Johnson repealed, and flag-burning made a capital offence as treason, punishable by death. When a US-citizen burns a flag, they are saying they want the US to burn and collapse, which is treason.

Get out or be hanged. The Supreme Court in that ruling set in stone its antiAmerican agenda for all to see, yet all are ignorant.

From a speech made by Capt. John S. McCain, USN, (Ret) who represents Arizona in the U.S. Senate:

As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.

One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian.

Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967.

Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country-and our military-provide for people who want to work and want to succeed. As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt.

Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.

One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it. That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours. Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could.

The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag.

He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to pledge allegiance to our flag and our country.

So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world. You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

---

Just in case you haven't read this.

A protest raged on a courthouse lawn,
Round a makeshift stage as they charged on.
Fifteen hundred or more they say,
Had come to burn a Flag that day.

A boy held up the folded Flag,
Cursed it, and called it a dirty rag.
An old man pushed through the angry crowd,
With a rusty shotgun shouldered proud.

His uniform jacket was old and tight,
He had polished each button, shiny and bright.
He crossed that stage with a soldier's grace,
Til he and the boy stood face to face.

Freedom of Speech; the old man said,
Is worth dying for and good men are dead,
So you can stand on this courthouse lawn,
And talk us down from dusk to dawn,
But before any Flag gets burned today,
This old man's going to have his say!

My father died on a foreign shore,
In a war they said would end all war.
But Tommy and I wasn't even full grown,
Before we fought in a war of our own.
And Tommy died on Iwo Jima's beach,
In the shadow of a hill he couldn't quite reach
Where five good men raised this Flag so high,
That the entire world could see it fly.

I got this bum leg that I still drag,
Fighting for this same old Flag.
Now there's just one shot in this old gun,
So now it's time to decide which one,

Which one of you will follow our lead,
To stand and die for what you believe?
For as sure as there is a rising sun,
You'll burn in Hell 'fore this Flag burns, son.

Now the riot just never came to pass.
The crowd got quiet and that can of gas,
Got set aside as they walked away
To talk about what they heard this day.

And the boy who had called it a dirty rag,
Handed the old soldier the folded Flag.
So the battle of the Flag this day was won
By a tired old soldier with a rusty gun,
Who for one last time, had to show to some,
This Flag may fade, but the colors don't run.

Author Unknown
I like it, but then I'm just an old veteran with a bum leg like the one in the poem.

Why is it so difficult for some to understand that the flag represents "We, the people?" Damn it, we are the nation, we are the government, we are the flag! You burn the flag, you burn me, you ... all of us! :(

The idea that anyone would die for a flag is just so sad and empty.That's just it. People don't die for a piece of cloth; they die for what that flag symbolises.

I may argue for someone's right to burn the flag, but I reserve the right to tell that someone to go to Hell if he or she actually does it.

Why is it so difficult for some to understand that the flag represents "We, the people?" Damn it, we are the nation, we are the government, we are the flag! You burn the flag, you burn me, you ... all of us! :(
Because it doesn't. The flag represents not the people, but the government. That's why flying a flag upsidedown is a symbol of displeasure with the current government.

Because it doesn't. The flag represents not the people, but the government. That's why flying a flag upsidedown is a symbol of displeasure with the current government.
No, that's a "protestor thing." Flying the flag upside down is an international distress signal.

I may argue for someone's right to burn the flag, but I reserve the right to tell that someone to go to Hell if he or she actually does it.

Yes, that is my opinion on it too. They have the right to do it, but that doesn't mean they should.


There was an episode of the TV series The West Wing some time ago, with the magicians Penn and Teller doing magic tricks in the White House. For their final trick, they folded a flag and put it into a rolled-up Bill of Rights. They do some mumbo-jumped and there's a poof; the flag is gone. "It's okay, 'cause even though the flag is gone, the Bill of Rights remains."

That's the argument that people do, indeed, have the right to burn flags.

However, it is an insulting gesture to the country, the people (most considerably the military), and the ideals of the country.

Because it doesn't. The flag represents not the people, but the government. That's why flying a flag upsidedown is a symbol of displeasure with the current government.


Not to sound like I'm butting in or anything, but last time I checked,
government = the people.
(in a democracy)
Since government == the people and it is assumed government == flag, then the people == flag. Cool! A little logic sentence!

Actually, that's one of the problems I have with people who complain about taxes. Why aren't people more willing to help each other through the government? Of course, that's off topic, so I don't expect the question to be answered here.

Not to sound like I'm butting in or anything, but last time I checked,
government = the people.
(in a democracy)
Since government == the people and it is assumed government == flag, then the people == flag. Cool! A little logic sentence!

This isn't a democracy. This is a republic.

*snip*

Hypocritical bullshit.

In your cute little poem, someone is threatened with death for expressing their opinions.

It is contrary to everything for which the flag is supposed to stand.

That is not patriotism, it is thuggery. That is not freedom, it is tyranny. That is not praiseworthy, it is disgraceful.

Hypocritical bullshit.

In your cute little poem, someone is threatened with death for expressing their opinions.

It is contrary to everything for which the flag is supposed to stand.

That is not patriotism, it is thuggery. That is not freedom, it is tyranny. That is not praiseworthy, it is disgraceful.
Bingo.

This isn't a democracy. This is a republic.


Republic: A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.


The People vote for the people of the government, the people of the government represent the people, and the government is usually represented by its flag.

That is why people who hold anti-US rallies in America and other countries usually burn flags: To insult the government, which is elected by the people.

Republic: A political order in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who are entitled to vote for officers and representatives responsible to them.


The People vote for the people of the government, the people of the government represent the people, and the government is usually represented by its flag.

That is why people who hold anti-US rallies in America and other countries usually burn flags: To insult the government, which is elected by the people.

The people are not infallible judges, sometimes mistakes are made. We then hold the right to make it clear to our government. I don't support flag-burning, and I think it is an idiotic way to show displeasure to the government, but I think it is a right that you do have.

The people are not equivalent to the government in a republic; we choose them, but unless you are willing to say that Boss Tweed was a great man, I think we are in agreement that sometimes things don't work out right. And then we protest, and hope that, if not the will fo the people, at least the threat of a voter backlash will make the government more likely to listen.

...I'm getting sick and tired of this whole democracy vs. republic distinction. So let's just clear this up right now.

democracy

n 1: the political orientation of those who favor government by the people or by their elected representatives
2: a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them [syn: republic, commonwealth] [ant: autocracy] (emphasis mine)
3: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group [syn: majority rule]

republic

n 1: a political system in which the supreme power lies in a body of citizens who can elect people to represent them [syn: democracy, commonwealth] [ant: autocracy] 2: a form of government whose head of state is not a monarch; "the head of state in a republic is usually a president"

(Special thanks to www.dictionary.com.)

In conclusion, democracy == republic.

Since government == the people in a democracy and democracy == republic, government == the people in a republic. Furthermore, since government == the people and we are assuming the government == flag, the people == flag. Whoa, a little more complex logic going on!

Bingo.


How about, NO? Go back to a highschool literature class and understand the terms 'fiction' and 'symbolism'. It's crystal clear that the thing is a fable-type creation rather than an advocacy of shooting hippies.

As per 'democracy' vs. 'republic': It is very clear from the writings of our Founding Fathers [Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers] that they meant 'republic' to be a LIMITED democracy. Note that the authority of the Federal Government, for example, is heavily limited by Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In a democracy like the one I live under it is not the case.

he flag represents not the people, but the government. That's why flying a flag upsidedown is a symbol of displeasure with the current government.

Wrong on both counts. The flag represents the national idea, if you which. Whatever makes your nation different. In America, it is 'the republic', that unique political structure that they have.

And flying the flag upside down is not a symbol of 'displeasure', at least when you're talking about the Old Glory. Flying an Israeli, British, or Korean flag upside down is downright impossible.

How about, NO? Go back to a highschool literature class and understand the terms 'fiction' and 'symbolism'. It's crystal clear that the thing is a fable-type creation rather than an advocacy of shooting hippies.

As per 'democracy' vs. 'republic': It is very clear from the writings of our Founding Fathers [Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers] that they meant 'republic' to be a LIMITED democracy. Note that the authority of the Federal Government, for example, is heavily limited by Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In a democracy like the one I live under it is not the case.

Whereas, the way I read it, they decided the nation should be a Republic out of direct opposition to Democracy - rather than a mitigated version of the same thing.

Wrong on both counts. The flag represents the national idea, if you which. Whatever makes your nation different. In America, it is 'the republic', that unique political structure that they have.

And flying the flag upside down is not a symbol of 'displeasure', at least when you're talking about the Old Glory. Flying an Israeli, British, or Korean flag upside down is downright impossible.

Depends what you mean by 'British' flag.

If you mean the 'Union Jack', it has been possible to 'fly it upside down' for more than two hundred years now.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://home.egge.net/~savory/unionjac.gif&imgrefurl=http://home.egge.net/~savory/unionj.htm&h=245&w=289&sz=4&tbnid=nUd07n6uG-kJ:&tbnh=93&tbnw=110&start=7&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dunion%2Bjack%2Bflag%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D

Wrong on both counts. The flag represents the national idea, if you which. Whatever makes your nation different. In America, it is 'the republic', that unique political structure that they have.

And flying the flag upside down is not a symbol of 'displeasure', at least when you're talking about the Old Glory. Flying an Israeli, British, or Korean flag upside down is downright impossible.

It is possible to fly the Union Jack upside down, and it does annoy me when people do.
Traditionally it was done by a victorous army, as an insult to those it had defeated. (thats why my NS flag starts upside down).

I don't agree that flags should be burned, but its better than burning people.

Let me be crystal clear on this, I support your rights to burn flags, books, or live kittens [that's protected by a SCOTUS ruling, too. (Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah (1993) , if you're wondering). However, I, and the writer of that poem, have the Constitutional right to criticize the burning of live kittens, books, or flags.


My understanding of that case was that the City of Hialeah passed law specifically to stop the Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye from practising their religion, and that it was seen as unconstitutional because it targetted just them (it wasn't "neutral and generally applicable"). Not that it's prefectly fine to butcher animals if you say it's for religious reasons.
Have i misunderstood?

I wouldn't know, but I do know that Congress followed suit to create religious exemption from some species-protection laws, for example, for people who kill eagles as part of a traditional ceremony [Hopi Indians]. So yes, burning kittens as a sacrifice is a civil right. [And I do think that animal cruelty laws should be repealed, but that's just my opinion]

As per 'democracy' vs. 'republic': It is very clear from the writings of our Founding Fathers [Federalist/Anti-Federalist papers] that they meant 'republic' to be a LIMITED democracy. Note that the authority of the Federal Government, for example, is heavily limited by Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. In a democracy like the one I live under it is not the case.


Okay then, let me rephrase what I'm trying to say. In the most general sense of the word, republic == democracy. I'm not a legalist, and nor will I stoop to that level of discussion. Really, if you wanted to, you could argue that "happy" is not necessarily the same as "glad".

On a side note, I really don't see anything wrong with flag burning. Flags are just cloth. Sure, people may have put all kinds of symbols in their hearts for the thing, but in my opinion, it's a form of idolatry to worship a flag.

If a flag is just a piece of cloth, why burn it? Clearly, to the people burning the flag it has some significance or else they wouldnt' be DOING it in the first place.

And what's wrong with idolatry anyhow? [Even if you're right]

Great poem, a truly great poem.

Btw, there are people outside of the USA that deeply support that flag, that country and all that it stands for. I happen to be one of those people.

I'm Irish, but i wouldn't die for Ireland if you paid me, nor would i die for Britain if you paid me. The difference is nationhood, i.e. patriotism.
All of Europe, bar France, is unpatriotic and they take their anger out on the USA, the French are, and have always been, deeply patriotic.

I would gladly give my life for the USA, and i would and do take deep offense at anyone desecrating the flag, especially baby-faced teenagers who think they know better than everyone else, yet are about as dumb as pig-swill.

How is it flamebait?

Let me be crystal clear on this, I support your rights to burn flags, books, or live kittens [that's protected by a SCOTUS ruling, too. (Church of the Lukumi Babalu Aye v. City of Hialeah (1993) , if you're wondering). However, I, and the writer of that poem, have the Constitutional right to criticize the burning of live kittens, books, or flags.

I can burn kittens?! KICK ASS! I'm off to go find some gasoline and a lighter.

The poem is well written, however it seems to express a sentiment of "Do what I want, or I'll shoot you."

I know a kid who was molested by a priest, but he would never desecrate a crucifix.

If a flag is just a piece of cloth, why burn it? Clearly, to the people burning the flag it has some significance or else they wouldnt' be DOING it in the first place.

And what's wrong with idolatry anyhow? [Even if you're right]

It's a symbol.

To one person, the flag might be the symbol of everything they love about their country (or another).

To another person (with different experiences) the flag might have come to represent everything they have come to dislike about their nation (or another).

So - if, for example, the person in question disagrees with the USA's inability to separate church from state... that person might wish to burn the flag as 'a symbol' of their displeasure with the regime... the flag represents a specific thing for that person... maybe something else than it might mean for another person.

BUMP-More people need to see this truly great poem.

Its a poem that says how great the guy was for trying to safeguard freedom of speech etc...by stopping people expressing themselves how they want.

yea, thats not hypocritical.

there is nothing "noble" or "great" about that poem. just contradictory bullshit.

at the end of the day, what ever way you try to look at it, burning a nations flag represents displeasure with the government, not the nation, or what the nation stands for. its the same with any country.

Sorry, but I'm with Cat Tribe and CSW on this one.

I'm never going to take part in a flag burning...but I support the right of people who choose to do so, and I think Cat Tribe stated why I don't like this poem better than I ever could.

yea, thats not hypocritical.

No, it's not. First, it's a poem - one which I find sending a methaphoric, rather, than a direct message. It

Second, the man is not so much threatening them - he's not posing a real threat to the zOMG CROWD - rather then expressing a message of ihs own [hinting they are not brave enough to risk their lives as he had.

No, it's not. First, it's a poem - one which I find sending a methaphoric, rather, than a direct message. It
a shitty, contradictory, message you mean.

Second, the man is not so much threatening them - he's not posing a real threat to the zOMG CROWD - rather then expressing a message of ihs own [hinting they are not brave enough to risk their lives as he had.[/QUOTE]
oh, i dont know

standing there with a loaded shotgun, talking about which one is going to die to do it....

i would imagine that would be fairly threatening.

Which one of you will follow our lead,
To stand and die for what you believe?
For as sure as there is a rising sun,
You'll burn in Hell 'fore this Flag burns, son.

I fail to understand how that can be interpreted as anything other than an explicit threat directed at whoever might attempt to burn the flag.

A truely Great Poem

Nadkor, he's trying to get a point accross <_<. If he came up and went "Now you all die" and started aiming, THEN he'd be threatening.

1) He just asked a question
2) He has 1 shell. If I was going to send a bunch of hippies away, I'd pack more than 1 shot.
Logically, this states that he's attempting to make a point.

A good point too.

A truely Great Poem

Nadkor, he's trying to get a point accross <_<. If he came up and went "Now you all die" and started aiming, THEN he'd be threatening.

1) He just asked a question
2) He has 1 shell. If I was going to send a bunch of hippies away, I'd pack more than 1 shot.
Logically, this states that he's attempting to make a point.

A good point too.
read Delator's post above yours, it says what i was going to reply to this with

its a poem that says that freedom of expression is all fine and dandy, but only if we like what youre expressing.

Jesh, it's a flag. Personally I have never understood why we even say the pledge to the flag. Would not a better symbol be the Constutition, which enshrines all these rights and sets up the goverment. Ya know, the document that created the country in the first place?

Of course most Americans haven't even read it, don't understand it, and it says a number of things that interfears with the intrests of the flag waving (and burning) crowds.

Well, here are my thoughts.

About the poem:

The rhyme scheme is poor at best, the verses seem to vary involutarily. There is no regular meter, although in some places fill words are used to keep up the resemblance.
The topic is emotional to the point of being fanatical, the symbolism is overdrawn and the stereotypes of the old man, the boy and the soldiers mentioned seem to originate in the poor patriotic imagery made to approach the gullible and the generally uninformed.
But that just the literary side.

About the issue:

If you can't stay rational about a subject, don't discuss it. Emotion is no basis for a law.
Fact is that a flag is nothing more than a piece of cloth. Burning it doesn't harm anybody. There is no need to make it illegal.
A flag may be a symbol for some people, but that is a purely subjective perception. A person might regard trees as symbols for longevity and stability, peace and perseverance. That doesn't give him the right to stop the owner of said tree from cutting it down.

Cabra: In what way would you call me uninformed or gullible? Do you know anything about me? And second..

Of course most Americans haven't even read it, don't understand it, and it says a number of things that interfears with the intrests of the flag waving (and burning) crowds.

I read the Constitution... but I am of course not even American.

Cabra: In what way would you call me uninformed or gullible? Do you know anything about me? And second..



I didn't call you that. I said the poem was obviously written mostly for that group of people, as can be seen by it's structure and wording, both very simple and basic.

If that shoe fits you, however, suit yourself.

I read the Constitution... but I am of course not even American.
Well there you go then. A good majority have not, and many native born citizens cannot name the three branches of goverment.

But if you're not American, what's it to you if the flag is burned or not?

But if you're not American, what's it to you if the flag is burned or not?

Because I believe the US Flag stands for some values that are international in scope - you know, liberty, infdividual rights, and all that stuff.

That's why I have one in my room.

The flag of the United States is meant to be a symbol of the people of the United States, hence the nation itself, as well as all of the ideas the United States is founded on. It has come to represent certain inalienable rights granted by the Eternal Grace of God, capitalism, and protection (during the Cold War, etc.)

When a US flag is burned, it is not signaling displeasure with US Government. In burning the flag, you are expressing your wish for:

A) The nation of the US to fall
B) All of the ideas that the Founding Fathers have based the US on to be eliminated

As you obviously cannot burn the United States down, you burn the flag instead. In the movies you see some stalkers have pictures with eyes of future victims X-ed out, signifying that they either will or wish to kill them. That is basically what you are expressing when you burn the flag.

A semi-random example of naitonal symbolism relating to flags can be found in the Roman Legions. When a Legion's eagle was captured (Dang, I can't think of what they called it), it was considered a great disgrace to the Legion, and often that legion was decimated and then disbanded.

Saying that the US flag is simply a piece of cloth is like saying a cross is just a piece of wood, or the Bible, Torah, or Quran is just another book. Whether you agree with what they represent is irrevelant. One must admit that they are more than just another ordinary book, board, or cloth sheet. To do otherwise is naive and just plain stupid.

Now the riot just never came to pass.
The crowd got quiet and that can of gas,
Got set aside as they walked away
To talk about what they heard this day.

And the boy who had called it a dirty rag,
Handed the old soldier the folded Flag.That part is funny enough to look at again. Can you imagine protesters actually doing that?

If the security forces would take the proper action then they would. I live in a place where there are many protests at a certain time of year, necessitating a military and mass police response. The polce, per SOP, will not fire on the crowds with live ammunition despite the fact that their lives are being threatened every second. They fire plastic baton rounds onto the street so they richochet into the crowd causing very little damage to anyone. The military, while heavily armed fire these plastic rounds into the crowd, in seldom intervals, but due to the size and nature of the crowd nothing happens. One bullet fired into the air, never mind at someone, would certainly make all the difference, but the determination on the part of Officials is simply not there. Flags of various colours are burned during these protests, as well as effegy's of certain people.

In this case i believe one German Politician of the 20th Century said it best, "You can only fight fire with fire." In the case of protests he was right. In the US you can protest but often these protests are quiet and very legal, all above the table stuff, routine. However, sometimes certain elements get out of hand, like in the 60s and 70s when crowds were fired upon, rightly so as they were endangering the lives of others, breaking the law, no longer legally voicing their opinion. Where i live entire protests are violent and completely against the law as people's lives are threatened at all times, and the sad thing is that people as young as 9 and 10, and people as old as 60 and 70 are present and participating in these wanton acts of aggression and illegality.

In the movies you see some stalkers have pictures with eyes of future victims X-ed out, signifying that they either will or wish to kill them. That is basically what you are expressing when you burn the flag.

How do you know what I wished to express when I burned the flag of my country? Did you read the signs?


Saying that the US flag is simply a piece of cloth is like saying a cross is just a piece of wood, or the Bible, Torah, or Quran is just another book. Whether you agree with what they represent is irrevelant. One must admit that they are more than just another ordinary book, board, or cloth sheet. To do otherwise is naive and just plain stupid.

You actually compare the political symbol of a nation to a religious symbol?
The cross, the Torah, the Quran are revered because they peoples' minds connect them with god, they are symbols and messages from the divine. Are you actually comparing your nation (or any nation for that matter) to god???

The cross, the Torah, the Quran are revered because they peoples' minds connect them with god, they are symbols and messages from the divine. Are you actually comparing your nation (or any nation for that matter) to god???

To me, the United States flag, Old Glory is, indeed, sacred - because it represents the idea of Liberty- more sacred to me than any religion could ever be.

Some people hold religion sacred. Others - other things.

To me, the United States flag, Old Glory is, indeed, sacred - because it represents the idea of Liberty- more sacred to me than any religion could ever be.

Some people hold religion sacred. Others - other things.

That's your right, but you cannot claim the special status religious objects and symbols are given for a profane thing such as a flag.

That's your right, but you cannot claim the special status religious objects and symbols are given for a profane thing such as a flag.


There's nothing profane about flags. Try again. :)

My view is simple. A flag merely represents the current state of a nation, nothing less and nothing more. In the case of the U.S., that's not a good thing, as now the flag represents fear, being ruled by terrorists, and a nation slowly bleeding itself to death.

In the future, the flag will likely represent something else.

There's nothing profane about flags. Try again. :)



profane

• adjective - secular rather than religious.

(source : OED, http://www.askoxford.com/?view=uk)

Unless you claim that the US is a theocracy, it's flag is profane.

not holy because unconsecrated, impure, or defiled :

Sorry. I thought you had this one in mind.

Sorry. I thought you had this one in mind.

I wouldn't call it consecrated, either :D