NationStates Jolt Archive

I've known about this for a few years thanks to my friends in the meat-packing industry...but it's been nothing substantial enough to bring to your attention 'til now. And this, by the way, falls short of unsubstantiated claims from the Canadian government - this is coming from Americans...

...Americans, you're being lied to on an almost constant basis. You are being spoonfed deceit. It's time to drop the blinkered unquestioning, war-time mentality, and to focus instead on transparency and accountability from your nation's government. Unless you enjoy things like bubbles forming in your brain.

And here's more of the news you never get to see on American news:


http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/04/12/usbse050412.html

Concerns raised about 1997 U.S. mad cow tests
Last Updated Wed, 13 Apr 2005 11:43:18 EDT
CBC News
GENEVA, NY - The United States did not properly analyze two suspected cases of mad cow disease in 1997, years before it showed up in Canada and devastated this country's beef industry, a CBC News investigation suggests.

Dr. Masuo Doi, the U.S. Department of Agriculture veterinarian who initially investigated both 1997 cases, says he's haunted by fears that the right tests were not done and that his own department did not properly investigate whether the cow had BSE.

Doi is now retired and speaking for the first time about his concerns.

"I don't want to carry on off to my retirement," he told CBC's Investigative Unit. "I want to hand it over to someone to continue, to find out. I think it's very, very important...

"How many did we miss?"

Doi's concerns are echoed by Dr. Karl Langheindrich, the chief scientist at a U.S. Department of Agriculture lab in Athens, Ga., that ran the early tests on one of the cows.

Documents obtained by CBC show that the samples tested by the department did not contain parts of the animal's brain critical for an accurate diagnosis.

Langheindrich told CBC that the department will never be able to say for sure what was wrong with the cow, though at the time it publicly ruled out bovine spongiform encephalopathy.

"Based on the clinical symptoms and the description given by the veterinarian, you can verify, yes, this animal had CNS, central nervous system disease, but you can't specify it in your findings further than that," he said.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture is refusing to talk about the cases, saying the documents provided to CBC speak for themselves.
1997 video from New York shows stricken cow

The scientists' comments raise new questions about how the U.S. industry has been able to essentially escape BSE when Canada's much smaller industry, observing almost identical safety and testing practices, has had four cases in the past two years.

Part of the answer could be in a slaughterhouse in Oriskany Falls, N.Y., which eight years ago may have become the home of the first American case of mad cow.

Bobby Godfrey, who worked at the plant, remembers a cow that arrived one day in May 1997.

"I thought it was a mad dog, to tell you the truth," he told CBC. "Didn't know what the hell it was. Never seen a cow act like that in all the cows I saw go through there. There was definitely something wrong with it."

The suspect cow was recorded on USDA videotape, which has been obtained by CBC News. It shows the animal trembling, hunching its back and charging plant workers.

"Me and my vet, including our inspector, they thought [the cow] was quite different," Doi told CBC. "They thought it was the BSE."

Key areas of brain not tested: documents

Documents obtained by CBC News show that the U.S. government was preparing for the worst. Initial signs pointed to its first case of mad cow disease, which would have immediate impacts on U.S. beef exports to countries around the world.

But further tests on the animal came back negative, the USDA later reported.

The final conclusion from an independent university lab: The cow had a rare brain disorder never reported in that breed of cattle either before or since – not the dreaded bovine spongiform encephalopathy.

CBC News has now learned that key areas of the brain where signs of BSE would be most noticeable were never tested. The most important samples somehow went missing.

That information was contained in a USDA lab report that was left out of the documents officially released by the department. It proves that the scientist in charge of the case knew his investigation was limited because of the missing brain tissue.

Second suspected case surfaces at same plant

With questions about the first cow still lingering, a second American cow showed up at the same plant three months later with suspicious symptoms. Videotape of that animal shows its head was bobbing and it was unable to rise to its feet, setting off warning bells for mad cow disease.

The second cow's brain was also sent for testing. Officials were later told verbally that the samples had tested negative for BSE.

Doi made repeated requests for documentary proof of the negative tests. To this day, he has seen nothing.

"How many are buried?" he wonders of other possible cases of BSE in the United States. "Can you really trust our inspection [system]?"

For weeks, the USDA told CBC that it had no records for the second cow suspected of having BSE in 1997. Then just a few days ago, it suddenly produced documents that it says proves that a cow was tested and that the tests were negative for mad cow disease.

But the documents also prove, once again, that there were problems with the testing. This time, so much brain tissue was missing that it compromised the examination.
The problems were so severe that one USDA scientist wrote that his own examination was of "questionable validity" because he couldn't tell what part of the cow's brain he was looking at.

Felicia Nestor, a lawyer who represents U.S. government whistle-blowers, says she isn't surprised by what this CBC News investigation uncovered.

"There have been too many times where information or tissues or other evidence has just sort of disappeared, fallen through the cracks," said Nestor, who has been handling USDA-related cases for nearly 10 years.

"There are a lot of holes. There are a lot of holes."

Commons committee hears coverup allegations

The results of the CBC investigation were broadcast on the same day that a former U.S. agriculture inspector, during testimony at a House of Commons committee, accused his own government of covering up suspected cases of BSE.

On Tuesday, Lester Friedlander repeated a claim he has made before – that cases of BSE surfaced in the U.S. long before the disease showed up in Canada.

Friedlander, who was fired from his job as head of inspections at a meat-packing plant in Philadelphia in 1995 after criticizing what he called unsafe practices, says he's willing to take a lie detector test to prove he is telling the truth.

Washington has denied his allegations.

Interesting story. Must continue to watch for updates.

I'm going to bump this because there are things you should know about, as unpleasant as they may be. Also because I think this has more immediate import than 'What nationality you are", "Playing opposite genders in mmos", or some hick burg in Kansas losing its' website.

BUMP.

I'm going to bump this because there are things you should know about, as unpleasant as they may be. Also because I think this has more immediate import than 'What nationality you are", "Playing opposite genders in mmos", or some hick burg in Kansas losing its' website.

BUMP.

Try reading the Kansas thread. What it lacks in depth it makes up for in brevity.

There was a good story on NPR down here about a new rancher's lobby that is behind keeping the ban on Canadian beef.

It's all about market, and has nothing to do with which cows really have disease.

Start eating something else. Seal meat is sounding better all the time.

I'm going to bump this because there are things you should know about, as unpleasant as they may be. Also because I think this has more immediate import than 'What nationality you are", "Playing opposite genders in mmos", or some hick burg in Kansas losing its' website.

BUMP.
What are you trying to tell us? One guy is saying something that can't be verified, about a problem that may or may not exist?

What are you trying to tell us? One guy is saying something that can't be verified, about a problem that may or may not exist?

Arammanar, careful, the bridge of your nose is sticking up over the sand.

Arammanar, careful, the bridge of your nose is sticking up over the sand.
You know if you'd like, I could go search the internet for a thousand articles talking about survivors of alien abductions. Would you make a thread championing this serious problem? Go troll somewhere else, weren't you leaving the forums anyway?

Considering that the UK government lied about its BSE problem for a long time, and then proved nearly incompetent in stamping it out, resulting in the needless deaths of people who ate contaminated meat, I wouldn't be surprised if BSE were in both Canadian and US cattle.

Why? Because neither tests EVERY cow that is slaughtered. The ONLY government that does test every animal is Japan.

If you aren't testing every cow, you may very well have some out there that are going onto the market without your knowledge.

You might say, "you can't prove there ARE any out there". To that I answer that it is a politically intolerable situation to have a single contaminated cow get on the market.

This could all be settled immediately by having universal testing - but since this dispute is really about market share and not about BSE, that's not what's going to happen.

You know if you'd like, I could go search the internet for a thousand articles talking about survivors of alien abductions. Would you make a thread championing this serious problem? Go troll somewhere else, weren't you leaving the forums anyway?
:) :) :) :)

You know if you'd like, I could go search the internet for a thousand articles talking about survivors of alien abductions. Would you make a thread championing this serious problem? Go troll somewhere else, weren't you leaving the forums anyway?

This isn't trolling, and it is a serious problem. I should also point out that I've argued with Dobbs before, and I haven't found him lacking in civility.

There was a good story on NPR down here about a new rancher's lobby that is behind keeping the ban on Canadian beef.

It's all about market, and has nothing to do with which cows really have disease.

Start eating something else. Seal meat is sounding better all the time.


Try ostrich- its beautiful red meat-not poultry. Its leaner than beef.

Considering that the UK government lied about its BSE problem for a long time, and then proved nearly incompetent in stamping it out, resulting in the needless deaths of people who ate contaminated meat, I wouldn't be surprised if BSE were in both Canadian and US cattle.

Why? Because neither tests EVERY cow that is slaughtered. The ONLY government that does test every animal is Japan.

If you aren't testing every cow, you may very well have some out there that are going onto the market without your knowledge.

You might say, "you can't prove there ARE any out there". To that I answer that it is a politically intolerable situation to have a single contaminated cow get on the market.

This could all be settled immediately by having universal testing - but since this dispute is really about market share and not about BSE, that's not what's going to happen.

Sadly you're right. Universal testing would lead to BSE discovery, which would lead to markets closing (as we in Canada have discovered).

Let's all eat Japanese beef!

This is a real problem. Some people feel safe because they are ordering or cooking beef till its well done. Most people arent aware that cooking DOES NOT kill the BSE prions.
Also, the proper disposal of the infected animals is not to feed it to other animals. There are reports that "downers" were processed and fed to pigs. Dumping them is the sea is bad too, but I havent heard it spoken of yet. I dont want to see the day when humans have succesfully trans-contaminated all of our meat.

You know if you'd like, I could go search the internet for a thousand articles talking about survivors of alien abductions. Would you make a thread championing this serious problem? Go troll somewhere else, weren't you leaving the forums anyway?

I am not trolling. Show me how this thread constitutes a troll, Arammanar. I came across this article while reading the news today. And it's an article from today. Besides, it's not about anything intangible, like space-alien abductees. It's about something with a massive potential for harm - to Americans (therefore, this makes the article of particular import to Americans - go figure), and knowing the American media's recent penchant for not delivering the news to the American people, I've decided to step in and let you know what's going on in your own country.

Some troll. If you want to keep your head buried in the sand, that's your own lookout. Don't go looking to blame me - or Canada for your troubles. Blame your gov. They're the ones who need to be accountable and transparent. I am accountable and transparent - you've got all the information I do, and you have my reasoning for bringing it to you.

As to leaving the forums - you must not have got the memos I've sent. Most everyone else seems to recall I went into 'lurk mode' for the most part, with the occasional post - and that at a later date, I decided to de-lurk...due in no small part to the lessening of the quality of the threads on NS. But mostly, I decided to come back to try to take the piss out of you, Arammanar.

That's right. It's all about you. Always has been. Keep a grip on your tinfoil hat, Arammanamanar.

I recently read a book about prion diseases (The Deadly Feast -- very interresting if anyone wants additional info on the subject) and the state of our understanding about these diseases and ability to control them is essentially nil. For all we know thousands of American cattle incubate this disease every year but are slaughtered before it can reveal it self, and hundreds of Americans may have BSE setting up shop in their brains right now, since the disease has been demonstrated the ability to stay dormant for 20 or more years.

There is no way to be clean enough; prions can survive assault with formalhyde, chlorine bleach, hundreds of degrees of pressurized steam, and thousands of Rotengen of hard ionizing radiation. And every piece of meat you consume could be infected. If you contract the disease there is no cure, no treatment, only a really, really bad death.

The United States government still refuses to ban the feeding of ruminants to one another, and until it does, beef is simply not as safe as it should be. There have been multiple outbreaks in the US of prion diseases identical to BSE, but occuring in other animals (sheep, pigs, minks). We are not immune.

I'm not trying to be alarmist, and I still eat beef all the freaking time, but this isn't something to joke about. As Schlosser pointed out in Fast Food Nation, we simply cannot trust meatpackers and herd raisers to keep our health in their own best interests over saving money. The Federal government needs to stop pretending that Canadian or British beef is a threat and get finally make it illegal to feed sheep brains and cattle blood to other cattle.

This isn't trolling, and it is a serious problem. I should also point out that I've argued with Dobbs before, and I haven't found him lacking in civility.
How many cases of mad cow disease have their been recorded, worldwide? 80 I think? You're more likely to die from lightning. Mad cow isn't this massive, overarching problem. When people start getting sick, then I'll concede that better testing measures are needed. But no one has. There are billions of diseaes and infections you can get, doesn't mean you have to test for every one of them. Like guns. Sure, you may have a defective bullet, but do you make your own ammunition to get around that? Sure, the casing could rupture and backfire, but it's not too likely.

You gotta love a Christian...

When people start getting sick, then I'll concede that better testing measures are needed.

Sort of like saying, "I'll believe the guillotine is fatal when I've seen a decapitation".

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/diseases/cjd/cjd_fact_sheet.htm
153 cases of mad cow disease over ten years.
16 people a year, worldwide, get the disease.
More people will die from AIDS, which is far more preventable.

You gotta love a Christian...

Sort of like saying, "I'll believe the guillotine is fatal when I've seen a decapitation".
One case of mad cow disease in 250 years. Please. You want to stop people from dying, propose mandatory flu shots.

One case of mad cow disease in 250 years. Please. You want to stop people from dying, propose mandatory flu shots.

No, I propose government stop LYING to its' citizens. The TRUTH is less expensive than flu shots. Of course, that'd mean removing an inch or two of sand from your sandbox, so I guess telling TRUTHS instead of LIES doesn't fit in with your plans.

I recently read a book about prion diseases (The Deadly Feast -- very interresting if anyone wants additional info on the subject) and the state of our understanding about these diseases and ability to control them is essentially nil. For all we know thousands of American cattle incubate this disease every year but are slaughtered before it can reveal it self, and hundreds of Americans may have BSE setting up shop in their brains right now, since the disease has been demonstrated the ability to stay dormant for 20 or more years.

There is no way to be clean enough; prions can survive assault with formalhyde, chlorine bleach, hundreds of degrees of pressurized steam, and thousands of Rotengen of hard ionizing radiation. And every piece of meat you consume could be infected. If you contract the disease there is no cure, no treatment, only a really, really bad death.

The United States government still refuses to ban the feeding of ruminants to one another, and until it does, beef is simply not as safe as it should be. There have been multiple outbreaks in the US of prion diseases identical to BSE, but occuring in other animals (sheep, pigs, minks). We are not immune.

I'm not trying to be alarmist, and I still eat beef all the freaking time, but this isn't something to joke about. As Schlosser pointed out in Fast Food Nation, we simply cannot trust meatpackers and herd raisers to keep our health in their own best interests over saving money. The Federal government needs to stop pretending that Canadian or British beef is a threat and get finally make it illegal to feed sheep brains and cattle blood to other cattle.


Its alarming when many of us eat meat several times a week. It stands to reason that the risk may be greater in processed meats-mechanically seperated-hot dogs, sausage and canned meats, right?

I read an article one time that explained some of the efficiency of running a hog farm-the amount of offal they feed pigs-they even have an acceptable ratio of pig excrement that they mix back into their feed. I think its safe to assume that since there is an acceptable limit, there will still be the greedy ones who well exceed that mark.
I'm hoping that I'm limiting our exposure when we only buy steaks. We grind our own beef from steaks in the Kitchen aid machine,so we dont buy ground beef. My kids were never interested in hot dogs, so I never buy them. and I wouldnt eat spam unless there was nothing else.

No, I propose government stop LYING to its' citizens. The TRUTH is less expensive than flu shots. Of course, that'd mean removing an inch or two of sand from your sandbox, so I guess telling TRUTHS instead of LIES doesn't fit in with your plans.
If this is such a problem, habeas corpus. Show me the body. Who's dying from this terrible pandemic?

If this is such a problem, habeas corpus. Show me the body. Who's dying from this terrible pandemic?

Go find your own body. No more linky-links provided for lazy, contemptuous conservatives. You'll have to find your own sources to ignore.

In addition to sheer numbers, one must also consider the means of death.

It is very important, from a political standpoint. Why are accidental gun deaths considered more horrifying than drowning in a bucket? Why is radiation considered so much more horrible than slipping in the bathtub?

Politics.

And that, my sorry friend, is the crux of the biscuit in this case. Someone is waving the fearful flag of BSE contamination in order to support what they really want - keeping Canadian beef out of US markets.

If they were being rational and scientific, instead of playing politics, they would be testing every animal on both sides of the border. But as long as people like you are around, no one will test anything, and in time, someone will die of BSE.

May be a lot of people - may be just a few. But the political effect of those deaths will be all out of proportion to their numbers.

Would you care to imagine what a politician might really think of playing those odds?

Consider that 20 times as many people are killed in car accidents in the US as were killed on 9-11 by a few terrrorists.

See the response? It's all political.

You gotta love a Christian...



Sort of like saying, "I'll believe the guillotine is fatal when I've seen a decapitation".


I'm Christian, so there is certainly no need to make that generalization.
I happen to know a small amount about the thread you started and I'm just a concerned. The lobbyists for the cattlemen in the US are among the strongest and well funded there are. I dont doubt for a minute there would be some foot dragging or even a cover up. the scary part is that many of us could already have these prions dormant in our systems. What triggers them? Who knows ?

Go find your own body. No more linky-links provided for lazy, contemptuous conservatives. You'll have to find your own sources to ignore.
Let me explain to you how the world works. When you make an allegation, you better have some proof. If there really is a problem with mad cow disease, who has it? You know what happens when you don't have any proof? You get laughed off your stage. I'm not playing your stupid game; you think there's a problem, you prove it.

In addition to sheer numbers, one must also consider the means of death.

It is very important, from a political standpoint. Why are accidental gun deaths considered more horrifying than drowning in a bucket? Why is radiation considered so much more horrible than slipping in the bathtub?

Politics.

And that, my sorry friend, is the crux of the biscuit in this case. Someone is waving the fearful flag of BSE contamination in order to support what they really want - keeping Canadian beef out of US markets.

If they were being rational and scientific, instead of playing politics, they would be testing every animal on both sides of the border. But as long as people like you are around, no one will test anything, and in time, someone will die of BSE.

May be a lot of people - may be just a few. But the political effect of those deaths will be all out of proportion to their numbers.

Would you care to imagine what a politician might really think of playing those odds?

Consider that 20 times as many people are killed in car accidents in the US as were killed on 9-11 by a few terrrorists.

See the response? It's all political.


Yep-and politcis as usual will continue to thrive through panic and confusion.

This isn't really surprising at all after the softwood lumber fiasco that nearly destroyed BC. Amidst that, was the salmon fisheries crisis that emerged when US fisheries refused to comply with a sustainability effort forged in Canadian waters (in fact, they took advantage of the situation to decimate fish stock to an all time low). The rationale given by US officials for these situations was not only absurd, it suggested that we Canadians were stupid enough to beleive what they dished us out simply because it was they who had said it. No one likes to be patronized or to have their intelligence insulted.

I for one have started to watch all trade sanctions imposed on Canada by the US with an eye of much greater scrutiny. Indeed, even the Avro Arrow project is a suitable example for the ways that US politicians use their influential might to push around we much smaller northern neighbours.

That isn't to say that Canadian politicians serving part of the blame for standing up to the US - but really, if we are the 'friendly' neighbours we are purported to be, there ought not to be a need to 'stand up' for anything. The sad thing is, certain Canadians look at the actions of American politicians and judge other Americans by proxy. The word for the day is 'politician' and its a drity word on the lips of the few remaining moralistic people.

In addition to sheer numbers, one must also consider the means of death.

It is very important, from a political standpoint. Why are accidental gun deaths considered more horrifying than drowning in a bucket? Why is radiation considered so much more horrible than slipping in the bathtub?

Politics.

And that, my sorry friend, is the crux of the biscuit in this case. Someone is waving the fearful flag of BSE contamination in order to support what they really want - keeping Canadian beef out of US markets.

If they were being rational and scientific, instead of playing politics, they would be testing every animal on both sides of the border. But as long as people like you are around, no one will test anything, and in time, someone will die of BSE.

May be a lot of people - may be just a few. But the political effect of those deaths will be all out of proportion to their numbers.

Would you care to imagine what a politician might really think of playing those odds?

Consider that 20 times as many people are killed in car accidents in the US as were killed on 9-11 by a few terrrorists.

See the response? It's all political.
So I infer from your statements that you don't believe one form to death to be inherently worse than another. That numbers should be reduced, rather than those we find unpallatable. So then why don't we do something about a problem that is ACTUALLY killing people? Again, AIDS, the flu, unstable ladders, go champion a cause to stop the deaths caused by that. One death from mad cow disease. One. One death does not an epidemic make.

Let me explain to you how the world works. When you make an allegation, you better have some proof. If there really is a problem with mad cow disease, who has it? You know what happens when you don't have any proof? You get laughed off your stage. I'm not playing your stupid game; you think there's a problem, you prove it.

Here's your proof.

Up to 400 000 people could be infected by a single cow with BSE (bovine
spongiform encephalopathy, mad cow disease) entering the food chain,
according to a report by an official EU (European Union) scientific
committee.

The report, prepared by the EU Scientific Steering Committee (SSC) on human
exposure risks of BSE via the food chain, has been released on the Internet.
It is not known what the threshold dose for infection is, or what effect
repeated low doses of infected meat might have.

Its worst scenario involved a single infected animal entering the food
chain, with the full carcass being processed into food products including
the so-called "specified risk materials" (SRM) -- the brain, spinal cord and
certain internal organs. It suggests up to 400 000 people could be exposed
to infected material in such a circumstance.

"Recent evidence suggests in countries with a reported low incidence, the
actual rate of BSE infected animals entering the food chain is not nil," the
report stated. "Presently available methods to prevent an infected animal
entering the food chain are far from being satisfactory."

A single infected animal could contaminate up to 116 tons of minced meat
product. The SRM tissues presented the greatest risk to human health because
they contained the highest concentration of BSE infectivity. "Intestines
used from young infected animals are of particular concern since they become
infectious in an early stage of the BSE incubation.The SSC is aware of the
direct human consumption of both intestines and brain material by many
population groups within the EU and now has evidence of brain and spinal
material being used in common meat products such as pates and sausages."

The report removes any comfort to be drawn by those countries, such as
Ireland, with a relatively low BSE infection rate. "Since there is
inter-member state transfer of animals, crossborder trading in animal organs
and marketing of offals, ingredients and processed foods into and out of
most EU member states, it is reasonable to conclude that the risk of human
exposure to BSE infectivity within any one country is not necessarily linked
to the geographical burden of infectivity in the cattle within that member
state."

It said the "ideal level" of protection of consumers from exposure to BSE
infectivity is "the absence of infected animals from the human food chain."
If this could not be reasonably guaranteed, the second level of protection
involved "the removal of SRMs" from processing. "Failure to do so is likely
to expose a large number of consumers to an unnecessary risk."

The risk of BSE-infected meat is associated with its transfer to humans in
the form of variant Creutzfeld Jacob Disease (vCJD or nvCJD). The disease is
invariably fatal but so far is comparatively rare. About 50 cases have been
diagnosed in the UK, including one in Northern Ireland. One has been found
in the Republic of Ireland.

Here's your proof.

Up to 400 000 people could be infected by a single cow with BSE (bovine
spongiform encephalopathy, mad cow disease) entering the food chain,
according to a report by an official EU (European Union) scientific
committee.

The report, prepared by the EU Scientific Steering Committee (SSC) on human
exposure risks of BSE via the food chain, has been released on the Internet.
It is not known what the threshold dose for infection is, or what effect
repeated low doses of infected meat might have.

Its worst scenario involved a single infected animal entering the food
chain, with the full carcass being processed into food products including
the so-called "specified risk materials" (SRM) -- the brain, spinal cord and
certain internal organs. It suggests up to 400 000 people could be exposed
to infected material in such a circumstance.

"Recent evidence suggests in countries with a reported low incidence, the
actual rate of BSE infected animals entering the food chain is not nil," the
report stated. "Presently available methods to prevent an infected animal
entering the food chain are far from being satisfactory."

A single infected animal could contaminate up to 116 tons of minced meat
product. The SRM tissues presented the greatest risk to human health because
they contained the highest concentration of BSE infectivity. "Intestines
used from young infected animals are of particular concern since they become
infectious in an early stage of the BSE incubation.The SSC is aware of the
direct human consumption of both intestines and brain material by many
population groups within the EU and now has evidence of brain and spinal
material being used in common meat products such as pates and sausages."

The report removes any comfort to be drawn by those countries, such as
Ireland, with a relatively low BSE infection rate. "Since there is
inter-member state transfer of animals, crossborder trading in animal organs
and marketing of offals, ingredients and processed foods into and out of
most EU member states, it is reasonable to conclude that the risk of human
exposure to BSE infectivity within any one country is not necessarily linked
to the geographical burden of infectivity in the cattle within that member
state."

It said the "ideal level" of protection of consumers from exposure to BSE
infectivity is "the absence of infected animals from the human food chain."
If this could not be reasonably guaranteed, the second level of protection
involved "the removal of SRMs" from processing. "Failure to do so is likely
to expose a large number of consumers to an unnecessary risk."

The risk of BSE-infected meat is associated with its transfer to humans in
the form of variant Creutzfeld Jacob Disease (vCJD or nvCJD). The disease is
invariably fatal but so far is comparatively rare. About 50 cases have been
diagnosed in the UK, including one in Northern Ireland. One has been found
in the Republic of Ireland.
Could be is no more convincing than "this man might have been murdered." You "could" have early stage renal failure right now. Based on statistics, that's infinitely more likely than having mad cow disease. Now just because the possibility exists in this world we live in, doesn't mean it has, or is going to, happen.
EDIT: And your report is from the EU, not America.

Could be is no more convincing than "this man might have been murdered." You "could" have early stage renal failure right now. Based on statistics, that's infinitely more likely than having mad cow disease. Now just because the possibility exists in this world we live in, doesn't mean it has, or is going to, happen.
EDIT: And your report is from the EU, not America.

There's a thing called risk. And it is not just based on the odds of something happenning. It is mostly based on the political reaction you get.

The odds are not zero. In fact, they seem to think that the odds will be going up over time, if we do nothing. It's also one of those problems that, by the time you prove it's going to affect thousands of people, they have already eaten the contaminated material and are therefore beyond help.

Politically, that's unacceptable risk. But you're still not getting what the real topic is here: control of US meat markets and keeping Canadians out for an arbitrary reason.

Why shouldn't we be fair and test every cow on both sides, so we can drop the specious argument that "Canadian cattle are contaminated and US cattle are not"?

Let me explain to you how the world works. When you make an allegation, you better have some proof.

From the article leading off this thread: "Documents obtained by CBC show that the samples tested by the department did not contain parts of the animal's brain critical for an accurate diagnosis."

"The U.S. Department of Agriculture is refusing to talk about the cases, saying the documents provided to CBC speak for themselves."

They do speak for themselves, apparently.

If there really is a problem with mad cow disease, who has it? You know what happens when you don't have any proof? You get laughed off your stage. I'm not playing your stupid game; you think there's a problem, you prove it.

Further: "The results of the CBC investigation were broadcast on the same day that a former U.S. agriculture inspector, during testimony at a House of Commons committee, accused his own government of covering up suspected cases of BSE.

On Tuesday, Lester Friedlander repeated a claim he has made before – that cases of BSE surfaced in the U.S. long before the disease showed up in Canada.

Friedlander, who was fired from his job as head of inspections at a meat-packing plant in Philadelphia in 1995 after criticizing what he called unsafe practices, says he's willing to take a lie detector test to prove he is telling the truth."

Nothing stupid about my 'game'. There IS something stupid about DENIAL.

From the article leading off this thread: "Documents obtained by CBC show that the samples tested by the department did not contain parts of the animal's brain critical for an accurate diagnosis."

"The U.S. Department of Agriculture is refusing to talk about the cases, saying the documents provided to CBC speak for themselves."

They do speak for themselves, apparently.

Further: "The results of the CBC investigation were broadcast on the same day that a former U.S. agriculture inspector, during testimony at a House of Commons committee, accused his own government of covering up suspected cases of BSE.

On Tuesday, Lester Friedlander repeated a claim he has made before – that cases of BSE surfaced in the U.S. long before the disease showed up in Canada.

Friedlander, who was fired from his job as head of inspections at a meat-packing plant in Philadelphia in 1995 after criticizing what he called unsafe practices, says he's willing to take a lie detector test to prove he is telling the truth."

Nothing stupid about my 'game'. There IS something stupid about DENIAL.
Show me these documents. Again, no one has gotten sick. Show me a sick person. There is botullism toxin in the ground your house is placed on. There is plutonium in the dirt. However, you don't seem to have died from shitting yourself to death nor do you seem to be leaking blood from every orifice. We screen our cows, people have yet to get sick. Again, I can find 1000 websites that have documents indicating this guy was abducted by aliens and that the government was covering it up. So shut up until you can PROVE SOMETHING.

There's a thing called risk. And it is not just based on the odds of something happenning. It is mostly based on the political reaction you get.

The odds are not zero. In fact, they seem to think that the odds will be going up over time, if we do nothing. It's also one of those problems that, by the time you prove it's going to affect thousands of people, they have already eaten the contaminated material and are therefore beyond help.

Politically, that's unacceptable risk. But you're still not getting what the real topic is here: control of US meat markets and keeping Canadians out for an arbitrary reason.

Why shouldn't we be fair and test every cow on both sides, so we can drop the specious argument that "Canadian cattle are contaminated and US cattle are not"?
Because I don't feel like paying higher prices for beef or higher taxes so what appears to be a non-existent threat can be proven to not exist.

Because I don't feel like paying higher prices for beef or higher taxes so what appears to be a non-existent threat can be proven to not exist.

Actually, because Canadian beef has been banned on this pretext, you're paying higher beef prices due to an American monopoly on the product. Thus that particular line of reasoning is flawed.

Show me these documents. Again, no one has gotten sick. Show me a sick person. There is botullism toxin in the ground your house is placed on. There is plutonium in the dirt. However, you don't seem to have died from shitting yourself to death nor do you seem to be leaking blood from every orifice. We screen our cows, people have yet to get sick. Again, I can find 1000 websites that have documents indicating this guy was abducted by aliens and that the government was covering it up. So shut up until you can PROVE SOMETHING.

Well, I'm not going to bother, because in times past, when I HAVE gone to the trouble of providing proof, links, or passages from historical texts, you and others like you repeatedly turn up your noses, citing whatever reason is most convenient for doing so, or automatically rejecting the information out-of-hand as it flies in the face of your stance. I'm done playing YOUR stupid game, Arammanar.

Don't like the thread? Stop posting. Maybe you could do something about those space-aliens you keep alluding to.

Actually, because Canadian beef has been banned on this pretext, you're paying higher beef prices due to an American monopoly on the product. Thus that particular line of reasoning is flawed.
Much of our beef comes from South America. We by no means have a monopoly on it.

Much of our beef comes from South America. We by no means have a monopoly on it.

Like a moth to the flame...

Why do you hate America?

Well, I'm not going to bother, because in times past, when I HAVE gone to the trouble of providing proof, links, or passages from historical texts, you and others like you repeatedly turn up your noses, citing whatever reason is most convenient for doing so, or automatically rejecting the information out-of-hand as it flies in the face of your stance. I'm done playing YOUR stupid game, Arammanar.

Don't like the thread? Stop posting. Maybe you could do something about those space-aliens you keep alluding to.
Yes, you have provided links. Rarely to anything that supports your argument, but you have provided links. But do you really think there would be any way for me to dodge it if you found proof that people were getting sick? But since you can't do that, you make up some pretext about how I wouldn't believe you anyway.

Much of our beef comes from South America. We by no means have a monopoly on it.

To use one of your own lines of reasoning, do you have a graph showing percentage of US beef by foreign market to back up that statement?

Like a moth to the flame...

Why do you hate America?
What the hell? That makes no sense at all.

You make baby Jesus cry.

To use one of your own lines of reasoning, do you have a graph showing percentage of US beef by foreign market to back up that statement?
http://cherokee.agecon.clemson.edu/mmm380.htm
"The U.S. is a net importer of beef. For decades we have imported foreign beef primarily from South America and Australia. During the 1990's, imports from these countries have been supplemented by increases in imports of live cattle. Feeder cattle imports from Mexico into feedlots in the Southern Plains and live slaughter cattle from Canada have made up the majority of imported cattle into the U.S. during the last decade."
http://cherokee.agecon.clemson.edu/img1_380.gif

You make baby Jesus cry.
Stop trolling in your own thread.

But since you can't do that, you make up some pretext about how I wouldn't believe you anyway.

Not can't; won't.

Why do you hate America?

http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW01-12-05.jpg

Not can't; won't.

Why do you hate America?
Can't. Or you would. Because you'd win. And you're pompous like that.

I don't hate America, America hates you.

wow-I just watched another thread plunk right into the toilet.

http://cherokee.agecon.clemson.edu/mmm380.htm
"The U.S. is a net importer of beef. For decades we have imported foreign beef primarily from South America and Australia. During the 1990's, imports from these countries have been supplemented by increases in imports of live cattle. Feeder cattle imports from Mexico into feedlots in the Southern Plains and live slaughter cattle from Canada have made up the majority of imported cattle into the U.S. during the last decade."
http://cherokee.agecon.clemson.edu/img1_380.gif

Thank you. The dat is seven years old, but I will accept it.and point out that in '97, Canadian imports made up 45% of total imports, a sizeable chunk. As supply and demand dictates, a removal of 45% of imports means the supply is lower while demand remains the same, leading to higher prices. Not a monopoly, but still higher prices.

Thank you. The dat is seven years old, but I will accept it.and point out that in '97, Canadian imports made up 45% of total imports, a sizeable chunk. As supply and demand dictates, a removal of 45% of imports means the supply is lower while demand remains the same, leading to higher prices. Not a monopoly, but still higher prices.
If you want to find better data, you're more than welcome to.

If you want to find better data, you're more than welcome to.

I can't, so I'm using the 45% in yours. So it does lead to higher prices, yes?

One case of mad cow disease in 250 years. Please. You want to stop people from dying, propose mandatory flu shots.
Your own link says 153 cases. I don't see how the above statement can be construed to be accurate.

Also from your link:
"New variant CJD (vCJD) is a rare, degenerative, fatal brain disorder in humans."

So, it is deadly and it is serious. The fact that it is not widespread is a good thing. We must stay vigilant, however. So if the allegations of the whistleblower are true, it is imperative that the US act on it.

BTW, the papers today say that the guy is willing to submit to a lie-detector test to proove the veracity of his claims.

http://workingforchange.speedera.net/www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/wfc/TMW07-14-04.gif

I can't, so I'm using the 45% in yours. So it does lead to higher prices, yes?
You can't manipulate data like that. You're assuming there was no covering of the difference. If we were importing beef before, who's to say that wasn't made up by other nations, as opposed to us spontaneously generating cows? Use the data as it is presented, manipulate it statistically, or find your own. Don't pull things out of your ass, or I'll have to start calling you Dobbs Town.

Your own link says 153 cases. I don't see how the above statement can be construed to be accurate.

Also from your link:
"New variant CJD (vCJD) is a rare, degenerative, fatal brain disorder in humans."

So, it is deadly and it is serious. The fact that it is not widespread is a good thing. We must stay vigilant, however. So if the allegations of the whistleblower are true, it is imperative that the US act on it.

BTW, the papers today say that the guy is willing to submit to a lie-detector test to proove the veracity of his claims.
153 people worldwide. One in America. Read the article next time, k?

And lie-detectors are not admissible in court. Why you ask? Because they're unreliable. They don't work.

Don't pull things out of your ass, or I'll have to start calling you Dobbs Town.

You can count on me to pull out of your ass any time you want.

153 people worldwide. One in America. Read the article next time, k?

And lie-detectors are not admissible in court. Why you ask? Because they're unreliable. They don't work.

You make baby Jesus cry.

You make baby Jesus cry.

You know, if you don't know how to post like a normal human being, you can go get your mommy to help you.

You can't manipulate data like that. You're assuming there was no covering of the difference. If we were importing beef before, who's to say that wasn't made up by other nations, as opposed to us spontaneously generating cows? Use the data as it is presented, manipulate it statistically, or find your own. Don't pull things out of your ass, or I'll have to start calling you Dobbs Town.

OK. Here you go:
U.S.-Canada beef and cattle trade

U.S. cattle imports from Canada:
2002: 1.7 million head
2003: 0.5 million head
2004 2,981 head*

U.S. cattle imports from all sources:
2002: 2.5 million head
2003: 1.75 million head
2004: 1.36 million head

That comes from:
http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm

So, now that we know you guys have not made up the difference, perhaps you'll agree that market forces drive the price up?

U.S. beef prices

Context for before discovery of BSE in the United States, December 23, 2003:
Average price in November 2003: $4.32/pound, Choice beef
Prices in 2003 another record-high, $3.75/pound
Supply and quality of beef nearing cyclical lows
Previous record high: $3.476 in June 2001, when market was adjusting to a similar period of tight beef supplies
Post BSE discovery:
Prices in 2004, a record $4.07/pound
First quarter 2005, $4/pound

(These prices are also affected by BSE in the US, so they're distorted [and I'm saying that even though misrepresentation would claim I proved my point])

OK. Here you go:
U.S.-Canada beef and cattle trade

U.S. cattle imports from Canada:
2002: 1.7 million head
2003: 0.5 million head
2004 2,981 head*

U.S. cattle imports from all sources:
2002: 2.5 million head
2003: 1.75 million head
2004: 1.36 million head

That comes from:
http://www.ers.usda.gov/news/BSECoverage.htm

So, now that we know you guys have not made up the difference, perhaps you'll agree that market forces drive the price up?

U.S. beef prices

Context for before discovery of BSE in the United States, December 23, 2003:
Average price in November 2003: $4.32/pound, Choice beef
Prices in 2003 another record-high, $3.75/pound
Supply and quality of beef nearing cyclical lows
Previous record high: $3.476 in June 2001, when market was adjusting to a similar period of tight beef supplies
Post BSE discovery:
Prices in 2004, a record $4.07/pound
First quarter 2005, $4/pound

(These prices are also affected by BSE in the US, so they're distorted [and I'm saying that even though misrepresentation would claim I proved my point])

Read farther down:
Beef imports from Canada as share of U.S. beef consumption:

* 2002: 3.9 percent
* 2003: 2.7 percent
* 2004: 3.8 percent
We just don't import live animals, according to your article.

You know, if you don't know how to post like a normal human being, you can go get your mommy to help you.

If you're normal, I don't want nothin' to do with normal. Actually, I don't want you to have anything to do with the thread. threads wilt and die when you show up. But how to get you to go...?

Tricky. Can't flame you, subtly or otherwise, as you're one of the regular 'go-weep-like-a-girl-to-the-mods' types. Can't ask you politely to get lost, 'cause you'll just keep coming back for more of the same, regardless of the topic at hand. Maybe I'll play the sexuality card:

'But sweetie, last night in bed you said you were tired of mommy always wearing the strap-on'.

If you're normal, I don't want nothin' to do with normal. Actually, I don't want you to have anything to do with the thread. threads wilt and die when you show up. But how to get you to go...?

Tricky. Can't flame you, subtly or otherwise, as you're one of the regular 'go-weep-like-a-girl-to-the-mods' types. Can't ask you politely to get lost, 'cause you'll just keep coming back for more of the same, regardless of the topic at hand. Maybe I'll play the sexuality card:

'But sweetie, last night in bed you said you were tired of mommy always wearing the strap-on'.
Not all threads, just yours. But yours die on their own anyway, when anyone actually reads what you're saying.

Psh, prove I cry to the mods.

And that doesn't even make sense, we're brothers now?

Yeah, well *bleh*
British beef is best

[QUOTE=Arammanar]Not all threads, just yours. But yours die on their own anyway, when anyone actually reads what you're saying.

[QUOTE]

When you show up in my threads, they die all right - usually by the hand of a mod. Usually when they poke fun at YOUR sacred cows.

Read farther down:
Beef imports from Canada as share of U.S. beef consumption:

* 2002: 3.9 percent
* 2003: 2.7 percent
* 2004: 3.8 percent
We just don't import live animals, according to your article.

True, which means all the economy stimulating slaughtering of our live animals goes on by our meatpackers, leading to your meatpackers lobbying to have the borders reopened. Also, since those meatpackers now have to buy American beef (losing out on the Canadian live-import market) they drive their prices up, driving beef prices as a whole up.

Really, it boils down to this-
Supply is limited by BSE.
Demand remains the same.
Therefore prices rise.

And if you really think 45% is made up over night, I would advise you to take some economics classes.

True, which means all the economy stimulating slaughtering of our live animals goes on by our meatpackers, leading to your meatpackers lobbying to have the borders reopened. Also, since those meatpackers now have to buy American beef (losing out on the Canadian live-import market) they drive their prices up, driving beef prices as a whole up.

Really, it boils down to this-
Supply is limited by BSE.
Demand remains the same.
Therefore prices rise.

And if you really think 45% is made up over night, I would advise you to take some economics classes.
Look at your OWN WESBITE, the net import of beef from Canada ROSE from 2003 to 2004.

You seem to think that the 45% is made up overnight by one country, rather than all the people we import from. I would advise you to take a philosophy class, since you seem to accel at metaphysical thinking.

Look at your OWN WESBITE, the net import of beef from Canada ROSE from 2003 to 2004.

You seem to think that the 45% is made up overnight by one country, rather than all the people we import from. I would advise you to take a philosophy class, since you seem to accel at metaphysical thinking.

In point of fact I've taken three philosophy classes, with an average final mark of 97%.
However, if you look again at my previous posts, you'll notice that I pointed to the economic situation of American meatpackers. Meatpackers get precisely zilch from non-live exports, as do slaughterhouses. Thus, they must either make up their shortfall in income by cutting costs or raising prices. Since cutting costs is a euphemism (often) for layoffs, and this is only a temporary ban, which route do you think they take?

In point of fact I've taken three philosophy classes, with an average final mark of 97%.
However, if you look again at my previous posts, you'll notice that I pointed to the economic situation of American meatpackers. Meatpackers get precisely zilch from non-live exports, as do slaughterhouses. Thus, they must either make up their shortfall in income by cutting costs or raising prices. Since cutting costs is a euphemism (often) for layoffs, and this is only a temporary ban, which route do you think they take?
Good. Glad to know you need that to be an engineer these days.

If you'll look at the actual prices you displayed, the gain is negligable. You can theorize all you want, but the data you presented doesn't agree with you.

Good. Glad to know you need that to be an engineer these days.

If you'll look at the actual prices you displayed, the gain is negligable. You can theorize all you want, but the data you presented doesn't agree with you.

Oh, you don't need it, but I've had an abiding interest in it since I read Candide, by Voltaire. Although generally useless in real life, it helps to give credence to any absurd ideas I might have, although only in the eyes of those impressed by secular education.

Oh, you don't need it, but I've had an abiding interest in it since I read Candide, by Voltaire. Although generally useless in real life, it helps to give credence to any absurd ideas I might have, although only in the eyes of those impressed by secular education.
Alright. You know what? Overall, I don't mind you. You're ok. So you win. Open borders to Canada, test all the beef, yadda yadda yadda.

If you'll look at the actual prices you displayed, the gain is negligable. You can theorize all you want, but the data you presented doesn't agree with you.

When the previous record high was 3.75$ per lb in 2001, and prices have gone down since then, 4$+ per lb is hardly negligible.

Alright. You know what? Overall, I don't mind you. You're ok. So you win. Open borders to Canada, test all the beef, yadda yadda yadda.

I don't mind you, you're OK also. But you don't have to agree with me. Declare boredom, or some other reason, and leave the thread if you want. I'm taking lunch so I'm leaving anyway.

I don't mind you, you're OK also. But you don't have to agree with me. Declare boredom, or some other reason, and leave the thread if you want. I'm taking lunch so I'm leaving anyway.
HAH, sucker! I win! :p
Nah, but to me, this isn't the most pressing of issues, nor the one that I feel we should be maddest at our government for.

Canadian Beef is Really American Scape-Goat.

Really? I had no idea :rolleyes:

HAH, sucker! I win! :p
Nah, but to me, this isn't the most pressing of issues, nor the one that I feel we should be maddest at our government for.

Dammit! Foiled again! :headbang:
It does get a little tedious, doesn't it?

153 people worldwide. One in America. Read the article next time, k?
So, only america is important?

Sheesh, and they wonder why the rest of the world is disagreeing with them. :rolleyes:


And lie-detectors are not admissible in court. Why you ask? Because they're unreliable. They don't work.
And since this is not a court but an important health issue, I'll wager that the lie detector can gauge pretty accurately whether we should take this man seriously. But no, the Us administration don't want that, that would imply that the truth of a statement is important in the decision-making process. That has certainly not been the case with this administration. /rant

I notice that the CBC report found more former USDA inspectors/veteranarians with serious concerns about BSE in US cattle, so it's more than just the one whistle-blower (or potentially just disgruntled employee) testifying in the House of Commons.

I saw the full report on the case on the National last night, which included film of 2 cows suspected of having BSE in 1997. As a farmer's daughter who knows cattle, I recognize the behaviour of one of them as being very unusual.

What disturbs me is that USDA veteranarians were not permitted to run tests on the parts of the brain that you use to test for BSE. There may be a reasonable explanation for this, but the USDA did not provide one. At this point, however, it does look suspicially like a deliberate cover-up.

A cover-up does not mean those cows definitely had BSE; in this case the BSE diagnosis has neither been proved nor disproved.

However, if it were revealed that the Canadian Department of Agriculture had behaved in the way described in the CBC report, I'd have yet another reason to be mad at our government. I would, in fact, be furious.

However, if it were revealed that the Canadian Department of Agriculture had behaved in the way described in the CBC report, I'd have yet another reason to be mad at our government. I would, in fact, be furious.

And rightly so. That Americans are not being made aware of this by their own government, or even by their own media is really the issue here.

But as you've seen, Americans like Arammanar apparently won't care about it unless people (his own countrymen) are dropping like flies. And I have my suspicions that even if that does come to pass, people like Arammanar still wouldn't believe it - they'd probably want sworn legal documents penned by the afflicted, stating for the record that they unknowingly ate contaminated beef. Of course, they'll then dispute where that beef came from...

Denial, denial denial.

Have a burger on me, Arammanar...

And rightly so. That Americans are not being made aware of this by their own government, or even by their own media is really the issue here.

But as you've seen, Americans like Arammanar apparently won't care about it unless people (his own countrymen) are dropping like flies. And I have my suspicions that even if that does come to pass, people like Arammanar still wouldn't believe it - they'd probably want sworn legal documents penned by the afflicted, stating for the record that they unknowingly ate contaminated beef. Of course, they'll then dispute where that beef came from...

Denial, denial denial.

Have a burger on me, Arammanar...


I'm an American Conservative Born-Again Republican Christian, and I heard about the problem you mention on NPR.

I also happen to agree with you Dobbs.

Well Dobbie, some people might say I'm in denial. I have no problems continuing to eat Canadian beef. Even though I know that BSE symptoms don't manifest in cattle under 36 months (and most cattle slaughtered for human consumption dies at around 12 months or so).

Because of that, I also recognize that until we have more sensitive tests it is a waste of time and money to test all Canadian cattle for BSE when they're slaughtered. Even if prions are extant, we can't find them when the cattle are that young.

Don't get me wrong -- I do want to make sure that ruminants aren't fed to ruminants. Cattle should not be fed to other cattle (or sheep etc) regardless of whether they are contaminated with BSE. And because feed is occasionally fed to the wrong species (there really isn't that much obviously different between pig or chicken feed and cattle feed), I support more stringent rules for all feed plants (ruminant parts are a no-no). That being said, I have no problem with older animals being made into pet food.

All life's a lottery. I enjoy beef, I will continue to eat it. (Especially since most of the beef I eat comes from my parent's farm, who I trust not to be morons.) Much like I continue to drive my car, even though people die in automobile accidents all the time.

I'm an American Conservative Born-Again Republican Christian, and I heard about the problem you mention on NPR.

I also happen to agree with you Dobbs.

I know, Legs - and I'm glad not all "American Conservative Born-Again Republican Christians" willfully keep their heads below sea-level. I'm also gratified to hear National Public Radio is reporting on this subject.

In this instance, I'm not lumping all conservative thinkers into a homogenious, Bush-admin cheerleading squad. It's a shame that so many of them have commandeered the political right-wing in the US, though. There was a time not so long ago when I could engage American conservatives in healthy discussion and debate - but the new American Right is, from my experience, all about stifling, denial, misdirection, buck-passing, and scapegoating.

How I miss the good old days. Back when we had the luxury of agreeing to disagree on topics that had an air of abstraction to them. But like I said much, muuuuuuch earlier, times have changed. Several times, in fact. Right now what's needed is for all of us, irrespective of our nations, to demand complete transparency from government. No more 'lost documents', no more bullshit to hide behind.

It's time to turn a critical eye towards our leaders. And it's the job of the media to do this. This issue should be center-stage, and those in charge should not be allowed to crawl out of the spot-light...not by a long shot.

Now I've heard some conservatives slag NPR, just as they'll slag any news source that doesn't fit their extraordinarily partisan views on issues, to the extent that some of these conservatives put their trust in anti-journalism, what the kids call 'blogs' these days. I'd sooner hear about world events from the hobo living in a wood crate by the rail corridor just south of me.

Enter sandbox. Place head a) in hole b). Cover liberally with sand c). Maintain position indefinitely. More sand may be added as needed.

ahhh, what the hell, bump.

BUMPS

I'll give this a new lease on life.

Not every blog is bad. In many cases, they're doing what the news networks do - take a wire story and wrap their bias around it.

I don't like taking my news from a single source, and I find that the biggest problem in US news is that it's all slanted for a US audience. We hear tons of crap about Michael Jackson when we could be hearing something more useful.

So I surf for my news. News sites and blogs.

Not every blog is conservative, and blogs are not a strictly US phenomenon.