NationStates Jolt Archive

Maids. Servants. Gardeners. Cooks. Drivers. Nannies. Would you hire people to do these things? How do you feel about domestic servants (help)?

Assuming all these people worked in your home...I don't count an outside dayhome or daycare, nor a restaurant that delivers:).

I'm looking at you Occidio Multus...I know you have some strong views on this...

my mum had a cleaner, she came once a week for a few hours for about 12 years. she died last year suddenly, she was a really nice woman, really friendly. my mum hasnt got anybody else in, she doesnt want to because she cant find anyone as friendly and as kind as the old one (whos name was Mrs. Gillespie, always that, never her first name)

i probably wouldnt get someone in myself though

I would if I really really REALLY needed to. But I have a big family, so I think I'm safe for now

I am not opposed to people working in service careers, but I simply would never want or need someone else picking up after me.

I don't think that I would ever need one unless I got married and had alot of kids. There are few domestic tasks that I cannot do.

Honestly, sometimes I think it would be beyond wonderful for someone to come in every once in a while and catch up on the laundry and the cleaning...or to even come home to a hot meal on occasion when my husband is away at work. Then again, I would hate the idea of having some poor filipina woman who left her children behind to make a living here coming in for whatever shit wages I could offer her.

If only mother would do it for free.... :D

I am not opposed to people working in service careers, but I simply would never want or need someone else picking up after me.
You'll make a good spouse then (if you aren't already).

I find the idea of having servants repulsive. If I can't be arsed to clean my own filth, then I deserve to live in it.

Yes, if I could afford it - but only for certain things.

I probably wouldn't, for instance, hire a nanny. I would, however, hire a housekeeper. I might hire a cook, so long as I could get in the kitchen and do my own every now and then. I would definitely hire a decorator and landscaper, but I would still want to get my hands dirty sometimes.

Does that make sense?

I find the idea of having servants repulsive. If I can't be arsed to clean my own filth, then I deserve to live in it.
Domestic help doesn't necessarily just clean...think of cooks...gardeners...(I can't really...I'm too damn working class to imagine paying someone of my own financial standing to do something I can do myself:)).

However, I wouldn't mind paying someone to care for my grandmother with alzheimers...if only she would allow it:(.

But you can't be arsed to fix your own car either (I assume). Should you just let it stand on the drive way?

I'd get two people:

a)Lawn Man -- someone to mow the lawn, keep shrubbery decent, rake leaves, etc.

b)Cook -- I love food... I love good food. Unfortunately, I'm an average cook at best, specializing in frozen pizza and boxed mac and cheese.

I figure i'd offer both positions for about $6.25/hr plus all the soda they can drink.

hehe

But you can't be arsed to fix your own car either (I assume). Should you just let it stand on the drive way?

If I knew how to fix my car, I'd fix it.

I know how to clean and pick up after myself.

Maids. Servants. Gardeners. Cooks. Drivers. Nannies. Would you hire people to do these things? How do you feel about domestic servants (help)?

Assuming all these people worked in your home...I don't count an outside dayhome or daycare, nor a restaurant that delivers:).

I'm looking at you Occidio Multus...I know you have some strong views on this...

If I only had to pay them a buck fifty an hour in cash I'd hire them. Cheap labor makes the world go 'round.

If I only had to pay them a buck fifty an hour in cash I'd hire them. Cheap labor makes the world go 'round.
Unfortunately, you can only treat illegal immigrants that way. Damn labour laws!

If I knew how to fix my car, I'd fix it.

I know how to clean and pick up after myself.
And what about growing vegetables? People do that for you. How hard can that be?

Domestic help doesn't necessarily just clean...think of cooks...gardeners...(I can't really...I'm too damn working class to imagine paying someone of my own financial standing to do something I can do myself:)).

I know how to cook and I know how to tend to a garden. I don't need servants to do any of that for me. Not to mention that I find such classism desturbing.

And what about growing vegetables? People do that for you. How hard can that be?

I don't have a vegetable garden. If I had one, I'd grow vegetables.

I, however, do have cleaning supplies and a fully working body to use them with.

I, my wife and any children we have in the future will clean our house regardless of our economic position. I neither need nor want someone to do it for me. How lazy can you get?

I have a full-time job, and my wife will soon be disabled as she recovers from surgery. We also have a 2 month-old baby whose needs must be met. It's not a question of *if* we will bring somebody into the house on a temporary basis to help her out, it's a question of *who.* But in our case, we are not seeking outsiders. Whoever it is will come from the family. And they will be paid.

You'll make a good spouse then (if you aren't already).

Not yet, but soon, hopefully.

This doesn't mean I live to pick up after others either... ;) fortunately, my future spouse has proven adept at laundry and cooking too. :)

I don't have a vegetable garden. If I had one, I'd grow vegetables.

I, however, do have cleaning supplies and a fully working body to use them with.
So you still have people working for you, but as long as it's not cleaning, it doesn't matter?

I have a full-time job, and my wife will soon be disabled as she recovers from surgery. We also have a 2 month-old baby whose needs must be met. It's not a question of *if* we will bring somebody into the house on a temporary basis to help her out, it's a question of *who.* But in our case, we are not seeking outsiders. Whoever it is will come from the family. And they will be paid.


This, however, is a completely different situation... absolutely you need help.

So you still have people working for you, but as long as it's not cleaning, it doesn't matter?

No, I don't. Those people work for themselves. I have no influence over them what so ever.

Also, they perform a service that I cannot. Clean and pick up after myself is something I can do.

No, I don't. Those people work for themselves. I have no influence over them what so ever.
And if a person works in your house and you pay him/her for it...... why is that wrong?

EDIT: And you can do a lot of things yourself if you bothered to study them for a day or a week or so.

No, I don't. Those people work for themselves. I have no influence over them what so ever.

Also, they perform a service that I cannot. Clean and pick up after myself is something I can do.
Then let's make it a bit more personal...do you pay for haircuts?

Would you only get someone to do things you couldn't do yourself?

And if someone is working in your home, cleaning or whatever, do they work 'for you' or 'for themselves'?

And if a person works in your house and you pay him/her for it...... why is that wrong?

Because I can do it myself, and do not need to exploit, as servants often are, other people to do it.

EDIT: And you can do a lot of things yourself if you bothered to study them for a day or a week or so.

I already know how to perform household chores.

There are times when it would be wonderful to have someone come in and give the place a really good scrub. Spring-cleaning style. I mean, I'm perfectly capable of keeping things neat and tidy, but I don't normally scrub my walls or carpets -- all things that need to be done eventually.

And having worked as a cleaner in other people's homes now and again, I've got nothing against hiring someone to come in and clean mine.

Problem is, I can't afford it (as I would expect to pay the wages I charged when I cleaned which was $12-$15/hour), so I have to spend a long weekend doing it myself, when I'd much rather spend my time on something more fun.


I wouldn't hire a cook or gardener, I'd rather do it myself. I don't have kids and don't plan to, so there's no need to consider a nanny.

What I don't like about domestic work is how underground its become...semi-legal nannies and housekeepers brought over on work visas, ill-paid and separated from their families overseas, often overworked, and rarely checked up on...filipinas for the most part taking care of invalids 24-7, or going home to cramped, shared accomodations at the end of a long day of domestic chores at some rich person's house.

Domestic work that is paid well (and believe me, it isn't cheap to have someone clean your house! which is why i don't do it), and where people aren't forced into binding and cruel contracts, I have no problem with. It's a way to make a living, like anything else.

Then let's make it a bit more personal...do you pay for haircuts?

No, I don't. My sister is a hairdresser and refuses to accept payment for it.

Would you only get someone to do things you couldn't do yourself?

In most cases, yes. That's why I think it's perfectly acceptable for, say, a disabled person to hire someone to help them out. Legally, of course, with decent pay.

And if someone is working in your home, cleaning or whatever, do they work 'for you' or 'for themselves'?

It of course depends on the arrangement, but servants do usually tend to work for those they serve.

My husband worked as a carpet and upholstery cleaner for five years...had old rich women try to grab his ass a few times, but also got great tips. It was a shit job though...hard work for low pay, but he never felt degraded or exploited. He started a trade instead because it had more opportunities for advancement.

It of course depends on the arrangement, but servants do usually tend to work for those they serve.
And you have no problem with being the servant of the company you work for?

This, however, is a completely different situation... absolutely you need help.

But this sort of situation is more common than you think. As a child, for instance, I did odd jobs for elderly people, usually mowing lawns and pulling weeds. My mother recently supplemented her income by performing housekeeping duties for elderly people.

People here seem to be decrying service jobs, all the while ignoring the fact that the industrialized world has largely shifted to a service industry, and it's a good bet that most people here are employed in a service role. Whether you're working for an individual or a corporation doesn't mean much in the larger scheme of things.

Personal servants are just like any other labor pool. They enter into employment voluntarily, agree on compensation with their employers, and are free to seek other opportunities when/if necessary. What's the problem?

Fass, now are you making a distinction between live-in domestic help and domestic services? Like a Molly Maid company, where you may, or may not get the same person cleaning your house on any given day?

Fass, now are you making a distinction between live-in domestic help and domestic services? Like a Molly Maid company, where you may, or may not get the same person cleaning your house on any given day?

Yes, I do make a distinction between the two. While the company is preferable, as standards of job rights and security can be more easily applied to them, I, personally, would still not use their service.

The social climate against things like this in Sweden is still negative. It is seen as a form of classism to have servants.

And you have no problem with being the servant of the company you work for?

Firstly, I am not a servant ("one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer").

Secondly, I don't work for a company.

The social climate against things like this in Sweden is still negative. It is seen as a form of classism to have servants.

Isn't the true classims assuming that people who do such work are automatically degraded?

Yes, I do make a distinction between the two. While the company is preferable, as standards of job rights and security, can be more easily applied on them, I, personally, would still not use their service.

The social climate against things like this in Sweden is still negative. It is seen as a form of classism to have servants.
Does Sweden have a history of class division? We never really developed classism in Canada...though it exists in terms of economics, but not to any rigid extent. By contrast, in Chile, they still have a very rigid class system, and only certain classes would be working as domestic servants in the homes of others.

Firstly, I am not a servant ("one that performs duties about the person or home of a master or personal employer").

Secondly, I don't work for a company.
Out of curiosity, how are you employed (if you are)?

Unfortunately, you can only treat illegal immigrants that way. Damn labour laws!

That's okay, illegal immigrants can get driver's licenses and they don't have to pay taxes...

That $6.25 an hour will be tax-free... and more money than they've prolly ever made in a week (~$250).

hehe

Does Sweden have a history of class division? We never really developed classism in Canada...though it exists in terms of economics, but not to any rigid extent. By contrast, in Chile, they still have a very rigid class system, and only certain classes would be working as domestic servants in the homes of others.

Yes, before the democratisation (and socialisation) of the 20th century, there was a clear class system here. Much work was applied to abolishing it and while influences from other countries where certain vestiges of the class society remained acceptable have become stronger, people here still remain negative to such expressions of, for lack of a better term, "superiority".

Out of curiosity, how are you employed (if you are)?

I study medicine, but I do work in nursing or as a doctor's aid as a temp whenever I have the time.

Isn't the true classims assuming that people who do such work are automatically degraded?

I do not assign shame to the servants, but to their masters.

I'm looking at you Occidio Multus...I know you have some strong views on this...

whAAAAAAt already, ma?

hahaa. hell no. unless you can count having a domestic servant as me having my awesome kind of boyfriend wear an apron, and nothing else, and cook me some nasty norwegian dish, then you know........clean things around the house. then hell yeah.

Wow, this thread has been going for about 30 minutes and it has already turned into a political issues thread with at least one sexual comment. *Attempts to act supprised* Lol. I love this place. *cries*

:D

seriously now. (man! he looks good in that apron!)

no way. not if i had a million upon million dollar treasure. if you cant clean- DIE. ( this coming from an obsessive compulsive clean freak) if you cant plant stuff in your yard- go to fucking home depot and figure it out. if you cant mow your yard- you are mosyt likely fat and lazy. as for cooking, and childraising- if you cannot do those tasks on your own, and you dont have to work for fiancial reasons- you were too stupid to breed in the first place.
i believe in being self sufficient. to have others do menial tasks for me is disgusting and degrading. if you need help with living your life- join a commune. if you cant function on a daily basis and do simple tasks- you lose.

I do not assign shame to the servants, but to their masters.

But why? You assume to believe that serving another is somehow degrading, and having someone serve you is insulting to the servant. If both parties are willing participants, then what is shameful about that?

If both parties are willing participants, then what is shameful about that?

That's what I'm wondering.

But why? You assume to believe that serving another is somehow degrading, and having someone serve you is insulting to the servant. If both parties are willing participants, then what is shameful about that?

You lack the cultural context to understand it.

I do have a maid, plus a few guys who work in the garden and lawn. I think its great and since time is such a valuable commodity, it makes a good investment.

You lack the cultural context to understand it.

Humor me.

You lack the cultural context to understand it.

Sdaeriji, what you do seem to have is some respect for honest labor, and the imagination to grasp that some employers can be fair and decent. Good for you.


Of course I can garden and clean. However, I would love to have a helper with the gardening so I could do even more, and also so I could leave home during the growing season without coming home to a bunch of weeds. I do not like cleaning, and would love to be able to pay someone who got satisfaction from the job, if I could afford a fair wage after taxes and insurance. Since I can't I decline to pay someone under the table or poorly and do it myself without being degraded by the work. Since I doubt my dignity is any sturdier than anyone else's, I don't think a paid helper would be degraded either.

Fass: If you are a nurse, you do things like change diapers, suction snot out of peoples' throats and clean up their vomit in your job, as I do. How on earth can you do those things then imagine someone would be degraded by dusting your coffee table? Helping is good, working is good, and we have no right or reason to look down on people who do domestic work. It just doesn't make sense.

You lack the cultural context to understand it.
i get this, what you are saying, from several standpoints.

my dads family, hard working italians. they be more likely to stop waving their hands aroung when they talk, ;) than they would have someone do menial tasks for them. even ver very rich italian women clean their oiwn bathrooms. ask sophia loren

cherokee indians have no concept of having someone else do a job, that in their culture, somehow, has something to do with the rest of your life, and your greater purpose. "dad- can i have my little sister do the kitchen for me? " "no, young one. it will alter your life , and your path. we must wear our own shoes in this life, so we will not walk the wrong path" yes, even the little things- like dishes.
and, having lived in a scandinavian country, and being closely intertwined with 2 members of that culture- Fass' poinjts make complete sense. in many restaurants in norway ( mostern northern) it is not uncommon o see people clear their own plates.

in many restaurants in norway ( mostern northern) it is not uncommon o see people clear their own plates.

But they have no problem having someone cook that food for them at that restaurant. It all seems very selective. They have someone pick up their garbage for them when they could easily haul it down to the dump on their own, they have someone deliver their mail when they could go to the post office and get it, and while I can't attest for Fass personally, I'm sure some of them have food delivered for them.

seriously now. (man! he looks good in that apron!)

no way. not if i had a million upon million dollar treasure. if you cant clean- DIE. ( this coming from an obsessive compulsive clean freak) if you cant plant stuff in your yard- go to fucking home depot and figure it out. if you cant mow your yard- you are mosyt likely fat and lazy. as for cooking, and childraising- if you cannot do those tasks on your own, and you dont have to work for fiancial reasons- you were too stupid to breed in the first place.
i believe in being self sufficient. to have others do menial tasks for me is disgusting and degrading. if you need help with living your life- join a commune. if you cant function on a daily basis and do simple tasks- you lose.


Who said anything about "can't" or "need"?

I don't need to go to Six Flags. I want to go to Six Flags and so I pay good money to pay for the people who work there, the upkeep of the rides, etc. I don't need to buy my food at the grocery store, but I don't want to, nor do I really have time to garden and hunt for myself, so I pay someone else to get the food to me.

I don't see how this is any different. I could keep my house clean (and do, since I'm a poor college student), but I'm not all that good at it, and if I had the money - why shouldn't I get someone else to do it for me so that I can spend my time on other things?

But they have no problem having someone cook that food for them at that restaurant. It all seems very selective. They have someone pick up their garbage for them when they could easily haul it down to the dump on their own, they have someone deliver their mail when they could go to the post office and get it, and while I can't attest for Fass personally, I'm sure some of them have food delivered for them.
wait. supporting a business is different. being a chef is a business. a person goes to culinary school to develop and show of a talent and love of food, and pleasing people with their creation. it is art to them. however, have you ever heard of BUS BOY COLLEGE? is that an art????

Who said anything about "can't" or "need"?

I don't need to go to Six Flags. I want to go to Six Flags and so I pay good money to pay for the people who work there, the upkeep of the rides, etc. I don't need to buy my food at the grocery store, but I don't want to, nor do I really have time to garden and hunt for myself, so I pay someone else to get the food to me.

I don't see how this is any different. I could keep my house clean (and do, since I'm a poor college student), but I'm not all that good at it, and if I had the money - why shouldn't I get someone else to do it for me so that I can spend my time on other things?

the upkeep of a mechanical ride is much different than you cleaning up your dirty clothes off the floor.

wait. supporting a business is different. being a chef is a business. a person goes to culinary school to develop and show of a talent and love of food, and pleasing people with their creation. it is art to them. however, have you ever heard of BUS BOY COLLEGE? is that an art????

So your job is only honest if you have to go to a special school for it?

wait. supporting a business is different. being a chef is a business. a person goes to culinary school to develop and show of a talent and love of food, and pleasing people with their creation. it is art to them. however, have you ever heard of BUS BOY COLLEGE? is that an art????

What does the level of education have to do with the fact that it's still a service?

So your job is only honest if you have to go to a special school for it?
are you following along here? that response was in reference to the cultural feelings in sweden about menial tasks and classism. Fass' comments.

the upkeep of a mechanical ride is much different than you cleaning up your dirty clothes off the floor.

...which doesn't make the service any more of an unneeded luxury.

What does the level of education have to do with the fact that it's still a service?
if you name me one person that aspires to be a bus boy, andf keeps the job their entire life, and never even wwants to be a waiter- you win. plus- the restaurant discussion started with Fass' topic of servitude in sweden.

if you name me one person that aspires to be a bus boy, andf keeps the job their entire life, and never even wwants to be a waiter- you win. plus- the restaurant discussion started with Fass' topic of servitude in sweden.

That's entirely irrelevant.

...which doesn't make the service any more of an unneeded luxury.
you can argue the poinjt down to a letter if you want. but i wouldnt have someone doing the personal tasks i can do for myself, period. if you want to get all broad spectrum and attempt to apply the standard to every thing in the universe- i would be the wrong person to try this with. i am not some elitist debator. sooner or later iam going to tell you soemthing yo umost likely do no twant to hear.

That's entirely irrelevant.
read post 64.

just because you would have people as servants if you could, and think that is okay- it is. in your world. i believe the thread asked a question of the individual.

you can argue the poinjt down to a letter if you want. but i wouldnt have someone doing the personal tasks i can do for myself, period. if you want to get all broad spectrum and attempt to apply the standard to every thing in the universe- i would be the wrong person to try this with. i am not some elitist debator. sooner or later iam going to tell you soemthing yo umost likely do no twant to hear.

If you won't, then don't.

Just don't try to apply your personal decision to everyone else as if there must be something wrong with them if they want to do it.

read post 64.

just because you would have people as servants if you could, and think that is okay- it is. in your world. i believe the thread asked a question of the individual.


seriously now. (man! he looks good in that apron!)

no way. not if i had a million upon million dollar treasure. if you cant clean- DIE. ( this coming from an obsessive compulsive clean freak) if you cant plant stuff in your yard- go to fucking home depot and figure it out. if you cant mow your yard- you are mosyt likely fat and lazy. as for cooking, and childraising- if you cannot do those tasks on your own, and you dont have to work for fiancial reasons- you were too stupid to breed in the first place.
i believe in being self sufficient. to have others do menial tasks for me is disgusting and degrading. if you need help with living your life- join a commune. if you cant function on a daily basis and do simple tasks- you lose.

This post shows you clearly pass judgement on people who retain servants.

This post shows you clearly pass judgement on people who retain servants.
yes i do. if you can call it judgement. usually, i get bored with the concept of actually giving a shit about other people halfway through the thought.


what i am trying to say, is that is completely ridiculous for you and demi to now consider every job in the whole fucking world to be that of a service type job, and that the standard rules apply. we were talking a maids, nannies, and gardeners, and then some genius throws THEME PARK WORKER in to the mix. if that is not ridiculous, i dont know what is. this is why people post shitty, fluffy threads on here more often. because some people idea of debate is akin to molecular dissection. and thats not very fun.

seriously now. (man! he looks good in that apron!)

no way. not if i had a million upon million dollar treasure. if you cant clean- DIE. ( this coming from an obsessive compulsive clean freak) if you cant plant stuff in your yard- go to fucking home depot and figure it out. if you cant mow your yard- you are mosyt likely fat and lazy. as for cooking, and childraising- if you cannot do those tasks on your own, and you dont have to work for fiancial reasons- you were too stupid to breed in the first place.
i believe in being self sufficient. to have others do menial tasks for me is disgusting and degrading. if you need help with living your life- join a commune. if you cant function on a daily basis and do simple tasks- you lose.Wow, that's quite a load of judgments...

Honestly, my answer to the thread question is "Hell, yeah, I'd want domestic help!"

I can clean, I can garden, I can cook (in fact, I truly enjoy cooking).

But it takes a lot of time to clean a place properly, same for gardening (although considering that I love living in the city, the gardening isn't such an issue for me).

(And as for cooking? Well, if I had enough money to hire a personal chef, I wouldn't - my partner and I would cook when we wanted, and eat out/order in for the rest of the time. But those options aren't available for house cleaning and gardening!)

So I'd LOVE to have someone do my basic cleaning so I could do other things instead. Of course, like any other job, I believe very strongly that the workers should be paid a living wage and treated as equals. As long as those requirements are met, I don't see anything wrong with hiring help.

I can handle it by myself. That's why one of my possible career choices is a housewife :p

Wow, that's quite a load of judgments...

Honestly, my answer to the thread question is "Hell, yeah, I'd want domestic help!"

I can clean, I can garden, I can cook (in fact, I truly enjoy cooking).

But it takes a lot of time to clean a place properly, same for gardening (although considering that I love living in the city, the gardening isn't such an issue for me).

(And as for cooking? Well, if I had enough money to hire a personal chef, I wouldn't - my partner and I would cook when we wanted, and eat out/order in for the rest of the time. But those options aren't available for house cleaning and gardening!)

So I'd LOVE to have someone do my basic cleaning so I could do other things instead. Of course, like any other job, I believe very strongly that the workers should be paid a living wage and treated as equals. As long as those requirements are met, I don't see anything wrong with hiring help.
of course it is a lot of judgements. why do you think Sinahue asked me , directly, to answer? and by the way, you can get quite efficient at cleaning, if you organize yourself, and prioritize. i even find time, after working 60 hours a week ,to wash the windows.

I live in a culture where it is expected that the middle class will have maids, gardeners etc. It is somewhat a social duty to do so. Those who work as domestic staff are normally those who did not finish their education for one reason or another. Work opportunities for women in this situation are either enter domestic service, or enter prostitution.

Let us look at a concrete example. The maid who works for us. She is a single mother, (abandoned at the altar, in a country where abortion is illegal but there is no welfare). She did not finsih school as her parents were killed in a car accident when she was 15. She had to quit school and work to have food to eat. Now she has two options, as stated above. We employed her on some conditions. (When we employed her she was not a mother.) These conditions were that she went and finished her education, we paid her above the minimum wage, for less hours a day work and provided the school books. She went back to school and was doing well. Then she got pregnant and her world went belly side up. We gave her maternity leave (many would not). Then the terms of her employment were renegotiated. The requirement now is that her daughter will complete her education. She has been our maid now for six years. It is a mutually satisfactory arrangement. She has steady employment, food on the table for her and her daughter, good working coinditions etc. We do not have to iron or wash the floors etc. It is not exploitation, it is giving a chance to someone that would otherwise have ended up in the gutter, and providing a future for a child that would otherwise have none.

So those that describe this as exploitation, ask yourselves, what is the alternative for those who work in domestic service.

what i am trying to say, is that is completely ridiculous for you and demi to now consider every job in the whole fucking world to be that of a service type job, and that the standard rules apply. we were talking a maids, nannies, and gardeners, and then some genius throws THEME PARK WORKER in to the mix. if that is not ridiculous, i dont know what is. this is why people post shitty, fluffy threads on here more often. because some people idea of debate is akin to molecular dissection. and thats not very fun.

Hear, hear! That's why I left this thread because it seems that people don't understand what "servant" means, despite the fact that I gave them a definition. That thing about molecular dissection was spot on!

Oh, and you have quite an impressive understanding of Swedish social etiquette! Most foreigners don't, so it is an achievement.

Hear, hear! That's why I left this thread because it seems that people don't understand what "servant" means, despite the fact that I gave them a definition. That thing about molecular dissection was spot on!

Oh, and you have quite an impressive understanding of Swedish social etiquette! Most foreigners don't, so it is an achievement. :) i wish i was able to assimilate more, learn the language better, and stay in norway.i have immigrants from there, living in the USA , now, so i am exposed to their unique way of thinking daily. but the customs and cultures of the scandinavian people are very close with my personal ideals, and i have a lot of respect for such a dignified society.

what i am trying to say, is that is completely ridiculous for you and demi to now consider every job in the whole fucking world to be that of a service type job,

Wow, way to make things up here.

I never said that every job was a service job (although, in a very broad sense, they actually are), but that no job is, by definition, degrading. A trash collector deserves no less respect than a maid who deserves no less respect than a secretary who deserves no less respect than a lawyer. We rank these things out of silly stereotypes, but human beings are human beings and working is honest - regardless of what kind of work you are doing.

nd that the standard rules apply. we were talking a maids, nannies, and gardeners, and then some genius throws THEME PARK WORKER in to the mix.

Did I say that a theme park worker is a servant? Hmmmm, I don't think so.

Time is a valuable commodity, and it is well-established that some people's time is worth more than others. Maximizing that time, therefore, is a priority. Could you imagine a head of state performing household chores?

"Mr. President, the Secretary of Defense has an urgent message!"
"It'll have to wait, George. I've got calcium stains building up in this tub, and the ambassador to Chile will be here in the morning."

What about business executives? Travelling salesmen? IT consultants? Or any other of a host of jobs where you can spend 1-2 days per week at home? Should they be forced to spend what little personal time they have cleaning the house?

The fact is, you make personal decisions like this all the time. You give over duties you could just as easily do yourself because you can afford to hand it over to someone who does so professionally, saving yourself precious time, and hopefully receiving better results than you could by yourself. The mechanic, hairdresser, dry cleaner, waitress, chef, bus boy, fry cook, car washer, tax preparer, tech support person, painter, roofer, plumber, exterminator, taxi driver, gas station attendant, lawyer... they all do things for you that you could do for yourself. And if we're going to take it further, then we could all study medicine ourselves, and stop bothering the doctor every time something is wrong. But we don't.

So why are we making such a big deal out of domestic servants? Get over it.

Wow, way to make things up here.

I never said that every job was a service job (although, in a very broad sense, they actually are), but that no job is, by definition, degrading. A trash collector deserves no less respect than a maid who deserves no less respect than a secretary who deserves no less respect than a lawyer. We rank these things out of silly stereotypes, but human beings are human beings and working is honest - regardless of what kind of work you are doing.



Did I say that a theme park worker is a servant? Hmmmm, I don't think so. oh i am sorry. most patient people would go back, and quote a,ll your quotes, and then argue each point, and say " ohyes you did!!" but see...i have learned. i am not changing some hard headed debator who cant admit understand or realize what they saids mind. you think you are correct, and that, sadly is important to you. i have actual topics, and every day conversation on this forum to read.

Time is a valuable commodity, and it is well-established that some people's time is worth more than others. Maximizing that time, therefore, is a priority. Could you imagine a head of state performing household chores?

"Mr. President, the Secretary of Defense has an urgent message!"
"It'll have to wait, George. I've got calcium stains building up in this tub, and the ambassador to Chile will be here in the morning."

What about business executives? Travelling salesmen? IT consultants? Or any other of a host of jobs where you can spend 1-2 days per week at home? Should they be forced to spend what little personal time they have cleaning the house?

The fact is, you make personal decisions like this all the time. You give over duties you could just as easily do yourself because you can afford to hand it over to someone who does so professionally, saving yourself precious time, and hopefully receiving better results than you could by yourself. The mechanic, hairdresser, dry cleaner, waitress, chef, bus boy, fry cook, car washer, tax preparer, tech support person, painter, roofer, plumber, exterminator, taxi driver, gas station attendant, lawyer... they all do things for you that you could do for yourself. And if we're going to take it further, then we could all study medicine ourselves, and stop bothering the doctor every time something is wrong. But we don't.

So why are we making such a big deal out of domestic servants? Get over it.
its a thread. about domestic servants. thats the big deal.
*sighs*
and your traveling business man should have a clean house. he isnt home. i talk on the phone, and wipoe mirrors, dust , etc. i clean the tub during my last minute of my shower. it isnt very hard.

i clean the tub during my last minute of my shower. it isnt very hard.

I knew that I wasn't the only one who did that!

I knew that I wasn't the only one who did that!

I thought everyone did. :confused:

oh i am sorry. most patient people would go back, and quote a,ll your quotes, and then argue each point, and say " ohyes you did!!"

You would either have to make up quotes or lie through your teeth to do this.

but see...i have learned. i am not changing some hard headed debator who cant admit understand or realize what they saids mind.

I'm not sure that last sentence is even English. What exactly were you trying to get across?

you think you are correct, and that, sadly is important to you.

Well, I have already seen your bigotry, so it isn't all that off-beat to assume you are showing it again here.

However, my issue here is not with being "right", but with ensuring that people like you don't act like you are objectively *right*. I don't care if you think having a servant is degrading - that is fine for you. However, stating that anyone who does have one must be fat, lazy, etc. is simply ludicrous.

I thought everyone did. :confused:

I've never known anybody besides myself who does that.

I knew that I wasn't the only one who did that!

I have this shower spray stuff that I spray all over the shower and tub right after I get out. It supposedly keeps it all clean. It seems to work well.

I have this shower spray stuff that I spray all over the shower and tub right after I get out. It supposedly keeps it all clean. It seems to work well.

I scrub the entire tub with soap after I finish washing, then I spray it with the shower head. After that, I spray that "shower mist" stuff on.

Yes, I have a 'domestic'. She is a nice old irish lady, who is widowed.

Mind you, she can't clean for shit, so when I have visitors I have to run around vacuuming. But nevermind.

I've never known anybody besides myself who does that.

I guess you kind of do now.

I have this shower spray stuff that I spray all over the shower and tub right after I get out. It supposedly keeps it all clean. It seems to work well.

I've been thinking of trying that stuff. If you say it works, then I should give it a try.

I guess you kind of do now.



I've been thinking of trying that stuff. If you say it works, then I should give it a try.

It keeps the shower from getting all the hard water buildup crap. I still have to clean it occasionally.

I guess you kind of do now.

Yeah, I suppose so!

I've been thinking of trying that stuff. If you say it works, then I should give it a try.

It works plenty well. I just have a habit of scrubbing my tub after I finish, even though it really doesn't need it, since I use the spray.

It keeps the shower from getting all the hard water buildup crap. I still have to clean it occasionally.

I figured as much, but it's worth it if it stops that build-up because it can drive me crazy sometimes.

I sound so obsessive.

You would either have to make up quotes or lie through your teeth to do this.



I'm not sure that last sentence is even English. What exactly were you trying to get across?



Well, I have already seen your bigotry, so it isn't all that off-beat to assume you are showing it again here.

However, my issue here is not with being "right", but with ensuring that people like you don't act like you are objectively *right*. I don't care if you think having a servant is degrading - that is fine for you. However, stating that anyone who does have one must be fat, lazy, etc. is simply ludicrous.
the last sentence was conversational english. read it again. it says you are a hard head. an elitist debator. who does not realize what they say. who does not understand what they say. who does not admit what they say. and , the final idea is that i cant change your mind. ( nor do i want to. you seem incredibly tigh..forget it).

and again i am being called a bigot. say it again. slower. it turns me on.

you can try and ensure anything you want about me . it most likely will fail.my opinion is my opinion, even when you start talking about Six Flags Magic Mountain in the middle of the maid thread. do you have ADD? anyhow- if you cant mow a lawn, you have serious issues, and you better hope they are physical (laziness) andf not mental(that would be a sad sad thing)

I figured as much, but it's worth it if it stops that build-up because it can drive me crazy sometimes.

I sound so obsessive.
obsessive is a good thing.

the last sentence was conversational english. read it again. it says you are a hard head. an elitist debator. who does not realize what they say. who does not understand what they say. who does not admit what they say. and , the final idea is that i cant change your mind. ( nor do i want to. you seem incredibly tigh..forget it).

and again i am being called a bigot. say it again. slower. it turns me on.

you can try and ensure anything you want about me . it most likely will fail.my opinion is my opinion, even when you start talking about Six Flags Magic Mountain in the middle of the maid thread. do you have ADD? anyhow- if you cant mow a lawn, you have serious issues, and you better hope they are physical (laziness) andf not mental(that would be a sad sad thing)
because two times is better than one.

the last sentence was conversational english. read it again. it says you are a hard head. an elitist debator. who does not realize what they say. who does not understand what they say. who does not admit what they say. and , the final idea is that i cant change your mind. ( nor do i want to. you seem incredibly tigh..forget it).

"cant realize what they saids mind" Yeah, conversational English right there.

and again i am being called a bigot.

*shrug* If the shoe fits...

you can try and ensure anything you want about me . it most likely will fail.my opinion is my opinion,

Stop right there. Did I ever suggest that you can't have your own opinion? I think not. I simply pointed out that you cannot force said opinion upon others, nor should you judge others by your own subjective opinion.

even when you start talking about Six Flags Magic Mountain in the middle of the maid thread. do you have ADD?

I'm sorry if the use of alternate examples is confusing to you.

anyhow- if you cant mow a lawn, you have serious issues, and you better hope they are physical (laziness) andf not mental(that would be a sad sad thing)

Again, who said anything about "can't"? The very fact that you assume anyone who pays someone else to do something for them must either be unable or lazy demonstrates your bigotry.

I was raised by a gaggle of domestic help when I was younger. My mother was working and trying to raise 3 children on her own, so she hired, nannies/maids/cooks/gardeners etc...

After my mother got married (second time) my father hired help for her, since they both were working.

I see no problem with it. Our "domestic help" is well taken care of, and if it helps my mother and father out with their busy schedules, even better.

b)Cook -- I love food... I love good food. Unfortunately, I'm an average cook at best, specializing in frozen pizza and boxed mac and cheese.


Buy a good Betty Crocker or similar cookbook. That's what I did and now my wife and friends think I'm a good cook, and I am. You can learn to cook good meals, and cooking is fun. Cleaning up after cooking is a different story.

PS I do hire someone to do my yard work as neither my wife nor I are able to do it. I'd love to be able to afford to have someone come in a few times a week to help the wife clean.

I know an older grandmother who was raising her three grandchildren. She cleaned houses to earn money. When the kids were old enough they helped her clean houses. Nothing wrong with hiring people to help you out.

"cant realize what they saids mind" Yeah, conversational English right there.



*shrug* If the shoe fits...



Stop right there. Did I ever suggest that you can't have your own opinion? I think not. I simply pointed out that you cannot force said opinion upon others, nor should you judge others by your own subjective opinion.



I'm sorry if the use of alternate examples is confusing to you.



Again, who said anything about "can't"? The very fact that you assume anyone who pays someone else to do something for them must either be unable or lazy demonstrates your bigotry.
the bold sentence is the only thing i feel the need the to respond to.

yes, the shoe fits. it is a size 10 (US) steel toed, black commando boot. there is one on the other foot as well. now run along.

I'd love to if I could affrod it. It gives someone a job, and increases efficiency for me as I don't have to worry as much about house chores.
Then again, I have one for free. My uncle sometimes comes in the summer. He loves to garden, and he does all of our gardening. He also acts as a chauffer. We pay him with love and wet kisses.

I have to agree with Dempumblicents; Occidio, there's no reason to bash her. No one is insisting that your opinion isn't justified, but usually in debate its not wise to get into huge generalizations about people being fat/lazy etc., it doesn't help your argument. This topic DOES raise important issues, it can be taken seriously- it isn't a forgone conclusion, and neither is it unworthy of debate.

You think some jobs are inherently degrading and shouoldn't be imposed on anyone.

She thinks all jobs are honorable for the hired and hiree if the working arangement is mutually satisfactory.

Fine.

of course it is a lot of judgements. why do you think Sinahue asked me , directly, to answer? and by the way, you can get quite efficient at cleaning, if you organize yourself, and prioritize. i even find time, after working 60 hours a week ,to wash the windows.You're right, I could get quite efficient at it. And while getting efficient at washing windows so you can do that every week after working 60 hours is a priority for you, it isn't for me. So if I'd be willing to pay someone a good wage to do it for me, what's the harm?

I find the idea of having servants repulsive. If I can't be arsed to clean my own filth, then I deserve to live in it.
I pretty much agree. If my partner and I can't cook, clean and take care of our children we pretty much suck...

I picked other... I'd be willing to be domestic help. Only if I got free room and board, and preferably some food, though. And a maid costume. Otherwise, no deal. And I probably wouldn't settle for being a random person's maid - I'd need to already know them.

I'd never hire a maid because I'd get freaked out having someone moving my stuff around without me knowing what/where.

You lack the cultural context to understand it.
OR the cultural context for others is different enough to change the whole dynamic between domestic help and those who pay them. As I said before, Canada does not have a history of class division. Now that doesn't mean that there aren't cases of people abusing their domestic help (especially the live ins that are on shaky immigration ground). However, by far the majority are those men and women who start their own businesses and don't take any crap from their employers. That's MY cultural context.

wait. supporting a business is different. being a chef is a business. a person goes to culinary school to develop and show of a talent and love of food, and pleasing people with their creation. it is art to them. however, have you ever heard of BUS BOY COLLEGE? is that an art????
This is why I started this thread. The underlying attitude that a lot of people have that those who do menial work (re, work that does not require a degree) are somehow being degraded, or are doing work of less value than others. My father in law has been a janitor in this country for twenty years. They pay him shit wages, he has no benefits, and he works 18 hours a day, with no overtime because he does two different contracts. Could he do better in life with an education? Most certainly. Unfortunately, he has to support a family of 9, along with the meager earnings of my sister-in-law who also works in the service industry as a store clerk. Right now, they are in no financial shape to go back to school and 'better' themselves. If my father in law did his janitorial work in someone's house instead of office buildings, would he somehow be more degraded or oppressed?

You mention that a restaurant is a business. Well so is the cleaning and domestic help industry. A billion dollar business. Domestic help is often contracted out through various companies and let me tell you, it's a cut throat industry. The ones who contract themselves out are competing with huge corporations like Focus Cleaning Industries, or BeeClean/Royale International. Frankly, if you can MAKE it in the industry on your own, I'd say that takes some serious entrepreneurial spirit.

There is a difference between being FORCED to be someone's domestic help, and going into the field because you either like it, or have no other marketable skills.

South Africa has quite the dilemma. There are all these women who work casually as maids, and men who work as gardeners who get paid shit-all and work so hard. It's another remnant of apartheid... They may even have to live away from their families for extended periods of time, and are generally open to exploitation since it is informal labour.

However, it may well be their only source of income, so they're trapped in this negative, harmful situation. The issue will only start to right itself once the poor in SA have access to a good education and start to have jobs available to them. That way they aren't forced into exploitation, and domestic workers can gain a voice.

When I was a baby my family did have a maid, but when we moved to the suburbs she decided that it was too far too travel. Then years later she turned up at my grandmothers door, strangely enough, looking for work. My parents decided to hire her again, about three times a week. I know my family treated her better than most people treated their maids, but it still bugs me... Urgh...

And she died a couple of years ago. She was only in her sixties too. :(

if you name me one person that aspires to be a bus boy, andf keeps the job their entire life, and never even wwants to be a waiter- you win. plus- the restaurant discussion started with Fass' topic of servitude in sweden.
*puts hand up*...sadly, my brother is one of these people who never has aspired to a more skilled job than pizza delivery boy or gas station attendant. His philosophy is that he only needs to work enough to pay rent, and the rest of his time is his:). I say sadly, because he was an honours student in high school, and is a genius with cars and electronics, but really, it's only sad from my perspective. He is deliriously happy being able to travel when he wants, and do what he wants when he wants to.

My mother-in-law has a neighbour who is a tailor. This woman has never been to school for it, and gets paid crap at one of those chain tailor shops in the mall, hemming pants and such. She hates the job, but it's her only skill. She makes a bit of money by doing tailoring jobs in people's homes...she'll come, do the mending, sit and chat, measure you for outfits, and turn out incredible creations of style. She's a genius, and THIS work, she loves. Is one job objectively better than the other? You have to look at it from her point of view. She hates the mall job, she loves going into people's homes and being creative.

I think we HAVE to see this from a subjective viewpoint. In-home nannies...are they there because they can't get any other job, hating it all the while? Would you really want someone like that to care for your kids? Much as I went into teaching even though I could have had a much higher paying job in law, there are many who choose lower wages for a job that they enjoy, or that fulfills them. If you think someone can't be fulfilled by cleaning someone else's house, or caring for their children, you are mistaken.

because some people idea of debate is akin to molecular dissection. and thats not very fun.
Hey...if I could be involved in a molecular dissection, I think I'd be pretty damn excited about it :D

I can handle it by myself. That's why one of my possible career choices is a housewife :p
So you get to do for free what someone else would do for pay:).

of course it is a lot of judgements. why do you think Sinahue asked me , directly, to answer? and by the way, you can get quite efficient at cleaning, if you organize yourself, and prioritize. i even find time, after working 60 hours a week ,to wash the windows.
It's kind of weird, and why I did ask you directly, but underneath everything else I've said, I actually feel the way you do. I do have this idea that people working as domestic help are degraded. But again, I think it really depends. I break domestic workers into two groups:

1) immigrants on work visas, usually who have left their family (even small babies) behind to make money overseas
2) Canadian citizens

Why do I make the distinction? Well for one, the first group has little protection under or understanding of the law. Quite often, they are female, and lately, almost overwhelmingly from the Philippines. They either live in their employer's home, or in crowded shared accommodations with other domestic workers. It's a strange little underground culture of exploitation. They are threatened with deportation if they complain about their pay or their treatment. Often, they care for invalid family members around the clock, or do the combined jobs of nanny, nursemaid, cook and cleaner. The second group, protected under our labour laws, are quite often still women, but very outspoken, and knowledgeable about their rights. They are fairly well paid, and they take no crap.

Would I hire a filipina woman, make her live in my basement, feed her scraps and pay her less than minimum wage, holding the threat of deportation over her head? Never. And if I can do anything about it, I will rat out any bastard who does. Would I hire a filipina woman with Canadian status, who has no fear of being kicked out, who has been able to bring her family over and is not afraid that losing her job might mean that family starves? Yes. If I needed the help. Which I don't, thank goodness.

I would consider the domestic help to be specific cleaning or maintenance on our home. Something that would free myself or my wife up to spend more time with our children. I do most of the work around the house and couldnt see hiring someone to do it unless I had money to throw away. I would rather spend a day at the beach with my family than clean and stain my deck or seal the driveway. But I wind up doing it as the money I save goes right to our future/equity, etc.. I would rather see my wife riding bikes with the kids instead of vacuuming or cleaning the bathtub, but thats just how it goes. If we won the lottery, I would likely hire a professional to come in from time to time and do some of the things we dont like to do ourselves. I'm not interested in servants or even nannies. I'll never need either.

geez why are y'all so mad at each other? some people hire domestic help, some wouldnt ever consider it. neither is wrong

if you want to pay people to do work that you can do yourself, for whatever reason you have to do so, why would it be WRONG?

as long as you 1) pay them minimum wage or the going rate whichever is higher, 2) hire them legally, 3) pay all relevant taxes, 4) treat them with respect, 5) make your children treat them with respect 6) pay them for all the work they do and not expect them to do work that is outside their job description without seperate negotiations (as in, dont expect the cook to watch your kids unless she agrees to do it and you pay her extra for it)

some people need work, some people have the money to hire them. win/win in my opinion.

we all make decisions on how to spend the money we have. if someone wants to pay someone else to ease some of the work of keeping a house, whats wrong with it? it really isnt more degrading to clean someone elses toilet than it is to clean your own. its certainly not more noble to deny someone employment because you dont want to "degrade" them. they need a job and this is the one they have chosen.

did you read the example from brazil? do you think THAT is wrong? i sure dont. when people need work and you have work for them to do, its a good thing to hire them for it.

now personally, while i could really use someone to come in now and then to beat back the dirt, and i could afford it, (and i do suck as a housekeeper), i find the thought of someone else messing with my stuff creepy. so i live with my messy house. i certainly dont think of myself as somehow better than those who hire help. its just a choice, neither good nor bad.

i think what i need to say here, that, if we , as a society eliminated the entire domestic servant level of society, all those busboys, maids, nannies, cooks, etc, would have no choice to start at a higher level in life , with more oppotunity. if we supported public education highger than high school, with our money, we would have a more skilled, higher level of opportunity- type of society. thats what fass was saying about sweden. they have more opportunity., because they try to not establish that lower working class int the first place.
Sinahue- your father in law is most likely a smart ,guy,. capable of doing more. wll, wwhat if it was automatic in society for him to sharpen a skill that he had, so he is more marketable, and could make more money?? that would have been awesome. people with 9 kids should not be punished for doing the greatest thing- having a large family. do you see may rich people having huge families> hell no. more constructive thoughts on this later.

i think what i need to say here, that, if we , as a society eliminated the entire domestic servant level of society, all those busboys, maids, nannies, cooks, etc, would have no choice to start at a higher level in life , with more oppotunity. if we supported public education highger than high school, with our money, we would have a more skilled, higher level of opportunity- type of society. thats what fass was saying about sweden. they have more opportunity., because they try to not establish that lower working class int the first place.
Sinahue- your father in law is most likely a smart ,guy,. capable of doing more. wll, wwhat if it was automatic in society for him to sharpen a skill that he had, so he is more marketable, and could make more money?? that would have been awesome. people with 9 kids should not be punished for doing the greatest thing- having a large family. do you see may rich people having huge families> hell no. more constructive thoughts on this later.
I support your ideas about education and the like, but I honestly don't see how we could completely eliminate the positions you have mentioned. Would all restaurants become self-serve, wash-your-own-dishes? Would invalids have no one to care for them? (a person to clean, cook, AND care for their physical needs?)

So many of the jobs available these days are in the service sector. Low paying, low skill jobs, and even if you have a Masters Degree...if there are only limited opportunities for people with your skills, you have to take a different job...even one 'below' you, like gas station attendant. That, or move.

And what if my father-in-law ISN'T that smart? What if all he can do well is clean (not saying that's the case, just pointing this out). Should he be punished for his lack of abilities by being unfit for any sort of job once all the low paying ones are abolished somehow?

There are limited opportunities in terms of employment. High paying, highly skilled jobs are the least numerous. Training more people so that they can compete for those limited positions doesn't help...it just means more unemployed people with student loan debts and useless degrees.

I would NOT hire domestic help even if I could afford it because I'd start feeling guilty just sitting around while other people were working on my house, and also I like my privacy. I have never had domestic help before, but some of my friends have/do.

I support your ideas about education and the like, but I honestly don't see how we could completely eliminate the positions you have mentioned. Would all restaurants become self-serve, wash-your-own-dishes? Would invalids have no one to care for them? (a person to clean, cook, AND care for their physical needs?) restauarants arent worth mentioning-we just referenced them for sweden, and Fass. because i am mainly talking about "in-home" help. but a busboy should be given fair chance to move up to waiter, and they arent, always
So many of the jobs available these days are in the service sector. Low paying, low skill jobs, and even if you have a Masters Degree...if there are only limited opportunities for people with your skills, you have to take a different job...even one 'below' you, like gas station attendant. That, or move.

And what if my father-in-law ISN'T that smart? What if all he can do well is clean (not saying that's the case, just pointing this out). Should he be punished for his lack of abilities by being unfit for any sort of job once all the low paying ones are abolished somehow? he should be paid more. its the base of operations, cleaning, and shouldnt be a lower paying skilll

There are limited opportunities in terms of employment. High paying, highly skilled jobs are the least numerous. Training more people so that they can compete for those limited positions doesn't help...it just means more unemployed people with student loan debts and useless degrees.
i mean we need to abolish looking down at the blue collar class. there is shit they can do, that a doctor cant dream of. they are far more self sufficient, than say- a computer executive who has maids, nannies and cooks. in my perfect society, of course :)

i mean we need to abolish looking down at the blue collar class. there is shit they can do, that a doctor cant dream of. they are far more self sufficient, than say- a computer executive who has maids, nannies and cooks. in my perfect society, of course :)
Oh. Okay. I agree with you. Coming from a blue-collar family though, I never felt particularly looked down upon here in Canada...nor do I 'avoid' the working bums and try to 'rise above' my 'station'.:). I'm sure people here do...I just don't know them...they must be avoiding me! I don't really get people that have hired help for stuff they really should be doing themselves. If you NEED it, have it, and fine. If you're just a socialite who doesn't want to break a nail, well...

Maids. Servants. Gardeners. Cooks. Drivers. Nannies. Would you hire people to do these things? How do you feel about domestic servants (help)?

Assuming all these people worked in your home...I don't count an outside dayhome or daycare, nor a restaurant that delivers:).

I'm looking at you Occidio Multus...I know you have some strong views on this...
i would, in theory, but i don't think i ever will.

i would love to have somebody clean or cook for me, but to be honest i don't think i will ever have enough stuff to require a professional maid nor a discriminating enough palette to justify hiring a chef.

if i ever were to have offspring (shudder) i would definitely employ professional herders to clean and feed the creatures, but such herders would probably be public daycare workers rather than members of my private staff.

i don't especially fancy driving (i prefer public transit), so i most likely will never need to be driven anywhere.

i would like to have a "personal assistant," in terms of the human palm pilot who follows you about with all your appointments and keeps you from missmatching your socks. that would be fun. of course, i don't tend to have appointments, and i own only white socks, so perhaps that too would be a waste...

time to blow my cover here LOL!

when I was with my ex husband we had a cleaner 3 days a week, a gardener once a week and I had a part time groom to help me with the horses who came in every morning

they were all paid well above national minimum income and tbh it was more like they were OUR bosses not the other way round

I loved all 3 of them and missed them alot when the marriage broke up and we had to let them (as well as the house etc) go

I still see my grrom down the pub and also see my cleaner regularly and we often have a few drinks together and laugh about my ex husband so I certainly didnt exploit them and the reason we had them in was because we were very busy running a business and I also competed my horses nationally as well

Coincidentally enough, I just saw an add in our district conference email advertising a woman in town who cleans homes for $12 an hour...which is double the minimum wage by the way.

Like I could ever afford that!

You know, seems like no one else on this thread has ever worked as a nanny or cleaner, but they sure seem to have a lot of opinions about it.

I've worked in both. It was a job like any other. Nobody was exploiting me. And as I said before, if I could afford someone else to come in and spring-clean my house for me once or twice a year, I'd do it in a flash.

Doesn't mean I can't do it. Doesn't even mean I'm too lazy to do it. It means that there are many better ways for me to spend my time, if I only could.

There is nothing inherently exploitative about hiring in-home help any more than it is inherently exploitative to hire people to fill other kinds of jobs.

On the other hand, if you're a bastard who refuses to pay the going rate, mistreats people, don't allow them regular working hours -- or expect 24 hour care while paying for less, then you're exploitative. Same as the jackass running a sweat shop where girls are forced to sew all day in a warehouse behind locked doors without breaks for pennies a day.

It's not the job that's exploitative, it's the pay and conditions that make it exploitative.

I do use a maid service and a gardening service.

If I have a need for more assistance and I can afford it, I will get it.

I work hard at my occupation and I am fortunate enough to be able to afford to pay others to do tasks I am neither good at nor wish to do. That allows me some leisure time.

I see nothing wrong with this. Would it be better if I spent my money buying things instead of services? Why?

I have worked numerous manual labor type jobs, including as a janitor and literally digging ditches. These allowed me to pay to get an education and earn more money so I don't have to do these types of tasks.

I can see arguments for an entirely different type of economy, but I cannot see how hiring services is objectionable in the current economy.

(I will admit to not having read much of this thread, so perhaps others can enlighten me.)

Coincidentally enough, I just saw an add in our district conference email advertising a woman in town who cleans homes for $12 an hour...which is double the minimum wage by the way.

Like I could ever afford that!

Yes, when I was a cleaner, I charged $12-$15 per hour and had no trouble getting work. In western Canada, it's the going rate.

Yes, when I was a cleaner, I charged $12-$15 per hour and had no trouble getting work. In western Canada, it's the going rate.
And I agree it's a fair wage...hardly exploitative, now is it?

It's also, if you notice, a much higher price than most people are willing to pay for child care or babysitting.

And I agree it's a fair wage...hardly exploitative, now is it?

It's also, if you notice, a much higher price than most people are willing to pay for child care or babysitting.

Well, people don't expect you to spend more than an hour or two cleaning unless they have a really enormous house or it's a move-out or other heavy cleaning. So they don't expect to have to pay for as much of your time.

Baby-sitting, well that's usually a couple hours in the evening, and typically it's a teenager down the street that does the job. Often enough that requires little effort from the teen once the kid is in bed, and they spend their time talking on the phone, doing homework, or watching TV. At least, that's what I did. ;) The important thing was just to have someone responsible there, in case they were needed. Baby-sitting rates are usually lower than minimum wage, and nobody cares.

But baby-sitting and child care are two different things. Actual child care or nannying is not just sitting around making sure the kids aren't left alone for a couple of hours. Day care, child care, and nannying all imply a lot more responsiblility than just babysitting, and generally you are expected to pay more per hour. If you are a nanny, you are probably salaried rather than paid per hour, and generally paid a good wage. Somewhat less if room and board are included, of course, but still not bad. I've seen apartment building superintendents who get paid less. Day care may be cheaper, but the less expensive ones are often subsidized -- or don't provide the expected quality services.

When I was doing nannying, I got free room and board plus a regular $6 per hour paycheque for the time when I was specifically 'on-duty' (when the parent wasn't home). I still helped out when I wasn't 'on-duty' since I lived there and all, but the arrangement was eminantly satisfactory for me while I was in high school and the single mom who hired me. I went to school during the day, she working evenings, some nights, and weekends. The best part was that she had no problem with me bringing my weirdo friends over. :)

I picked other... I'd be willing to be domestic help. Only if I got free room and board, and preferably some food, though. And a maid costume. Otherwise, no deal. And I probably wouldn't settle for being a random person's maid - I'd need to already know them.

I'd never hire a maid because I'd get freaked out having someone moving my stuff around without me knowing what/where.

If you are in Oklahoma, USA my wife and I will consider hiring you for room and board and some food. We are both good cooks. No maid costume thought.

To those who replied "I will never need it." Let me ask you a question. What if you became disabled, and could afford domestic help? What if you became disabled and the government would supply domestic help?

I would probably get a house cleaner, if I got anyone to do service work for me. I am terrible with housework.

I _AM_ a domestic help, while I pay my way through University, although most of my tasks are personal care for the disabled. I think if you have an employer who respects you, and you're making an adequate wage, it's not a bad gig. I have neither of those things, so I'm looking for employment elsewhere. :headbang:

I know a family who has help, and they treat her well, she makes a decent wage and is praised for her work. If and when I have a career where I'm too busy/knackered to vacuum and wash laundrey when I get home, I would gladly employ someone to help. I'd be more mindful of offering them flexible hours for their other responsibilities like studying and family, and I'd pay them as well as I could afford.

It's not a bad job. It's not as stressful as some jobs I've had previously, but being respected by your employer is a VERY important part of making the job worthwhile. And setting limits to what tasks you're prepared to do. I end up having to do plenty of maintenance around the house, which wasn't outlined in the job description. And I scrub lots of 'pet mess' off the carpet. :eek: