NationStates Jolt Archive

A recent CSI (the original, and only decent one:)) centered around the murder of a transexual (male to female) and then looked quite briefly at the underground world of illegal gender reassignment surgeries and so on. The episode touched on transgender issues in a rather more humane way than usual; describing how many transgendered people are outcastes from 'normal' society, and how terrible it can be to be born into a gender that just doesn't feel right. Of course, Grissom got to prove how open and understanding he is by comparing transgenders to male oysters who are able to change their sex, suggesting that immutable gender is a mutation. The episode had it's moments of sensationalism, but I was actually fairly happy with the overall portrayal.

However, the portrayal was still culture specific (to Las Vegas) and really only a sliver of what is out there in terms of 'alternate' gender identities. Female to male transgenders were hardly mentioned, and the case centered around the rather competitive world of show-girl dancers. Still, I have to say, I'm glad the issue is starting to be brought up more and more in the media (think of Drew Carey's transgendered brother).

The point of this thread is this: what do you know about transgenders/transsexuals? How do you feel about those who don't fit neatly into 'male' or 'female'? There is a lot of coverage of gays and lesbians, but still very little coverage of gender issues.

I'm basically like: you should be happy with what you have.

I'm basically like: you should be happy with what you have.
Do you tell that to people with spina bifida? Or cancer? Or people who are desperately unhappy living a lie? (Yeah, stay with your abusive spouse, be happy with what you have! Don't admit you're gay and leave your wife, just bottle it up and pretend!)

I'm basically like: you should be happy with what you have.
easier said than done

easier said than done
Isn't it always?

I'm surprised at you Legless...considering how outspoken you are on certain issues, and changes you think are necessary in politics and society:). Can't you just be happy with what you have? :eek:

I'm basically like: you should be happy with what you have.

So I can stop bathing? Schweeeeet.

It seems to me (and the point of the thread is to address this), that the majority of people know very little about transgender issues, could care less, and think it would never affect them. However, there are a lot more transgendered people out there than you might think, and the unfortunate reality is that they tend to have suicide rates MUCH higher than even gay or lesbian youth. We seem to be willing (for the most part) to accept different sexual orientations, but our gender boundaries are still pretty inflexible.

I see my point didn't come out right. I meant to say you should be happy with whatever gender you have. Disease, like cancer, is a whole different thing. It is naturally bad, that is why it's a DISease.

Okay. I don't personally know people who have or had gender issues, so I don't know how bad it can be. But changing gender, in my eyes, is self-mutilation. I don't really care if people do it, but I would never. And I really don't understand why people would like to (probably because I'm happy with my body)

I see my point didn't come out right. I meant to say you should be happy with whatever gender you have. Disease, like cancer, is a whole different thing. It is naturally bad, that is why it's a DISease.

Okay. I don't personally know people who have or had gender issues, so I don't know how bad it can be. But changing gender, in my eyes, is self-mutilation. I don't really care if people do it, but I would never.
you would never do it because you dont know or understand what its like to need to do it

you would never do it because you dont know or understand what its like to need to do it
Indeed

On a realted issue, I am aware of what they call "intersex" children- basically because of problems in the womb, human babies can be born anatomically male, female, hermaphrodite or various degrees of male/female. It's farily rare but must create all sorts of problems for their parents- how would you know whether to bring up your male/female child as male/female? and if you got it "wrong" i.e. brought up your intersex child "male" when it later decided it was female, would that be better/worse/kinder/easier/harder than bring it up as "female" and having it later decide it should be male?

I see my point didn't come out right. I meant to say you should be happy with whatever gender you have. Disease, like cancer, is a whole different thing. It is naturally bad, that is why it's a DISease.

Okay. I don't personally know people who have or had gender issues, so I don't know how bad it can be. But changing gender, in my eyes, is self-mutilation. I don't really care if people do it, but I would never.
Well, plenty of transgendered people agree with you, and never take the steps to change their sex through surgery. My brother is one of these. He is openly transgendered, but that doesn't mean he cross dresses á la "Pricilla, Queen of the Desert", nor does he 'swish' nor is his sexuality set in stone. He couldn't imagine going under the knife to become a 'woman', but he still feels as though he was born into the wrong gender. Transsexuals are rarer than transgendereds, because the gender-reassignment surgical process if often too expensive, or scary to consider.

However, are you as against plastic surgery as you are against this sort of gender-reassignment surgery? Are fake boobs, lips, buttocks and so on only ok on those who are physically already female?

I personally think everyone should do anything they need or want to do to be happy. Apart from harming others or preventing them from being happy. But let's be honest, even though an oyster might be able to change it's gender, we're not oysters, nor are we able to change our gender by nature. How a man could want to be a woman or the other way around is beyond me. I can understand homosexuality as something completely normal, seeing as it's even present in the animal world (and feelings aren't based on looks and yadayada :D), but wanting to change your gender? Sorry, but something went wrong there. How does someone "feel like a woman" without ever having been one? By the time a man feels like that, sure it may be "too late", but i think something was done wrong when parents and society raised that poor child.

Oh well, people are people and when you boil it all down, we'll all die anyway if you bury us under burning potatoes...

>_>
<_<

On a realted issue, I am aware of what they call "intersex" children- basically because of problems in the womb, human babies can be born anatomically male, female, hermaphrodite or various degrees of male/female. It's farily rare but must create all sorts of problems for their parents- how would you know whether to bring up your male/female child as male/female? and if you got it "wrong" i.e. brought up your intersex child "male" when it later decided it was female, would that be better/worse/kinder/easier/harder than bring it up as "female" and having it later decide it should be male?
The general trend in the west is to not permanently assign the child a gender through surgery. In the bad old days, a decision was made immediately, and often without the parent's knowledge. Intersexed people who have been assigned the 'wrong' gender have campaigned to stop this process, and it has become more common to simply assign a social gender, and leave it up to the individual to make any decisions about permanent surgical assignment later on.

I personally think everyone should do anything they need or want to do to be happy. Apart from harming others or preventing them from being happy. But let's be honest, even though an oyster might be able to change it's gender, we're not oysters, nor are we able to change our gender by nature. How a man could want to be a woman or the other way around is beyond me.
its not wanting to change, its.....needing to change

I can understand homosexuality as something completely normal, seeing as it's even present in the animal world (and feelings aren't based on looks and yadayada :D), but wanting to change your gender? Sorry, but something went wrong there. How does someone "feel like a woman" without ever having been one? By the time a man feels like that, sure it may be "too late", but i think something was done wrong when parents and society raised that poor child.
transsexuality is just as present in the 'animal world'

my parents raised me as a normal young boy, i was part of a loving family, and as far as everyone was concerned i was their son/brother/grandson/nephew etc. but from a very early age i always felt that i was a girl, and i would say that when i was very young...long before i could understand just what i was saying when i said it.

another example would be when it was a "girls vs boys" game, i always chose the girls side. without fail. thats where i felt i should be.

ach...theres loads of things like that, but its just not a case of waking up one morning and deciding "i know, today ill become a woman, thatll be fun"

Well, plenty of transgendered people agree with you, and never take the steps to change their sex through surgery. My brother is one of these. He is openly transgendered, but that doesn't mean he cross dresses á la "Pricilla, Queen of the Desert", nor does he 'swish' nor is his sexuality set in stone. He couldn't imagine going under the knife to become a 'woman', but he still feels as though he was born into the wrong gender. Transsexuals are rarer than transgendereds, because the gender-reassignment surgical process if often too expensive, or scary to consider.

However, are you as against plastic surgery as you are against this sort of gender-reassignment surgery? Are fake boobs, lips, buttocks and so on only ok on those who are physically already female?
So he feels like he's been born with the wrong gender, but he wouldn't change it if he got the chance? :confused:

And I am against all plastic surgery for the same reason.

So he feels like he's been born with the wrong gender, but he wouldn't change it if he got the chance? :confused:

And I am against all plastic surgery for the same reason.
even when its a choice between hormones/surgery and not living?

even when its a choice between hormones/surgery and not living?
Sorry. What do you mean exactly? What is the choice?

Sorry. What do you mean exactly? What is the choice?
heres the choice:

1) get hormones and surgery
2) kill yourself

How a man could want to be a woman or the other way around is beyond me. First of all, I have to say, lucky you. Because it's a terrible thing to go through, questioning your gender. It's much harder than questioning your sexuality. But let me set you straight on something. It isn't a case of a man wanting to be a woman. It is a case of someone, being female (or male), but having the physical attributes of the opposite gender. It's something that many transgendered people become aware of at an early age...for my brother, he can trace it back to being about five. He played with trucks, liked to climb trees, and so did I, but he just felt 'wrong'. He didn't play with trucks and climb trees as a boy, but as a girl. What the hell does that mean? I can only approximate, and guess at how it feels. Does it mean he wanted to do 'girly things' instead of 'boy things'? That aspect of gender is a social construct for the most part. Does it mean he is more 'sensitive' and 'emotional' than a man should be? Again, gender stereotypes. The way he's explained it to me is that he FEELS female. What female means to him may not mean female to me, but he wouldn't go around saying he feels like he was born into the wrong gender, losing friends, alienating family, being misunderstood, depressed and suicidal if it weren't a MAJOR issue for him. I can understand homosexuality as something completely normal, seeing as it's even present in the animal world (and feelings aren't based on looks and yadayada :D), but wanting to change your gender? Sorry, but something went wrong there. You say that homosexuality is present in the natural world, so you can understand that. Well, changing genders is ALSO present in the natural world, and not just in oysters. Many amphibians are able to change their sex. It is a mutation that allows the species to continue when there are no members of the opposite sex to breed with. Many species of fish are also able to do this. You can find as many, if not more examples of gender-switching in the animal world as you can examples of homosexuality.How does someone "feel like a woman" without ever having been one? By the time a man feels like that, sure it may be "too late", but i think something was done wrong when parents and society raised that poor child.


So, my brother is transgendered because my mom let him dress up in her clothes? (which never happened by the way, and to this day she refuses to let him wear skirts in her presence...never mind my dad who would prefer my brother to be gay rather than this...)

My brother can strip a car and rebuild it from the ground up. He's a big guy, husky and tough. But he feels female. You think he chooses that, just to be contrary? No one made a 'mistake' raising him. He was raised just fine...he has good morals, he cares for people, and he has enough self-esteem that when he finally came to terms with who he was, he reached out for help instead of killing himself, like so many others end up doing. No mistake. This is just who and what he is.

Yes, people are people, but that doesn't mean the same. We're all different, and that isn't a bad thing, or a wrong thing, or a mistake.

The general trend in the west is to not permanently assign the child a gender through surgery. In the bad old days, a decision was made immediately, and often without the parent's knowledge. Intersexed people who have been assigned the 'wrong' gender have campaigned to stop this process, and it has become more common to simply assign a social gender, and leave it up to the individual to make any decisions about permanent surgical assignment later on.

It's a great thing, but I really think that it's going to be a really difficult thing for it to become the norm. After all, parents are going to want their children to be "normal". If their son's scrotum didn't fuse correctly, and he'd need to urinate sitting down, most loving parents would want that "fixed".

Society isn't really at a place to accept that there's a chance that the child's mind might still be female, and "fixing" the situation and forcing them into being male might be devistating.

It's really a no-win situation for everyone involved :(

So he feels like he's been born with the wrong gender, but he wouldn't change it if he got the chance? :confused:

And I am against all plastic surgery for the same reason.
I would really benefit from corrective laser eye surgery, but I can't stand the thought of someone cutting into my eye, whether I'm awake or not. I have glasses, and I do fine. My brother, feeling female, is just as squeemish about going under the knife. Yet, his need to be female is much stronger than my need for better eye sight. He will struggle with this all his life. There are no 'glasses' to allow him to fit into the right gender, and perhaps at some point, he'll go through with it. Right now, he can neither afford it (since it's counted as non-essential, and is extremely expensive), nor can he bring himself to get an operation.

It's a great thing, but I really think that it's going to be a really difficult thing for it to become the norm. After all, parents are going to want their children to be "normal". If their son's scrotum didn't fuse correctly, and he'd need to urinate sitting down, most loving parents would want that "fixed".

Society isn't really at a place to accept that there's a chance that the child's mind might still be female, and "fixing" the situation and forcing them into being male might be devistating.

It's really a no-win situation for everyone involved :(
By becoming the norm, do you mean not permanently assigning a sex to intersexed children? Or intersexuality itself? Because it IS the surgical norm these days to leave well enough alone...they USED to burn off small penises to form a clitoris, or construct a penis out of an enlarged clitoris, but few parents are opting for that anymore. Yes, we all want our children to be 'normal'. That goes for people whose children have any sort of birth defect. The reality is, there is incredible variation in our species, and 'normal' is just a concept, not a real physical standard.

I would really benefit from corrective laser eye surgery, but I can't stand the thought of someone cutting into my eye, whether I'm awake or not. I have glasses, and I do fine. My brother, feeling female, is just as squeemish about going under the knife. Yet, his need to be female is much stronger than my need for better eye sight. He will struggle with this all his life. There are no 'glasses' to allow him to fit into the right gender, and perhaps at some point, he'll go through with it. Right now, he can neither afford it (since it's counted as non-essential, and is extremely expensive), nor can he bring himself to get an operation.
i had laser eye surgery. its not that bad. the newest kind only uses laser, no knife at all. its creepy but theyll give you valium to calm you down and the whole thing takes just a few minutes.

its WAY easier than giving birth.

I see my point didn't come out right. I meant to say you should be happy with whatever gender you have. Disease, like cancer, is a whole different thing. It is naturally bad, that is why it's a DISease.

Okay. I don't personally know people who have or had gender issues, so I don't know how bad it can be. But changing gender, in my eyes, is self-mutilation. I don't really care if people do it, but I would never. And I really don't understand why people would like to (probably because I'm happy with my body)
of course its self mutilation. its extreme major surgery. that anyone would consider such a thing shows just how important it is to them. its much too expensive for most people anyway.

in any case, if thats what it takes for a person to be happy, im all for it. no one should be forced to go through life in misery if there is a remedy for it.

i had laser eye surgery. its not that bad. the newest kind only uses laser, no knife at all. its creepy but theyll give you valium to calm you down and the whole thing takes just a few minutes.

its WAY easier than giving birth.
I'm sure it is...but I can't get over the mental block. I'll take giving birth over someone messing with my eye any day. Doesn't mean it's a rational decision, but there it is:).

I have several gay male friends who do drag shows throughout the week and some of them desire to have a sex change. For reasons mentioned in this thread, it seems almost unreachable for them. The cost alone is baffling. I had one friend who was going through the process, and he was under counselling and hormone therapy. I will now refer to him as "she" because thats the life she led. She got her make up on every morning, her name was Felicia(had it legally changed although they would not change her drivers license to read female of course).....and had saved up almost enough to go to Johns Hopkins ....I believe is where she was going to have the surgery. She ended up killing herself because a family member stole her money and her dream was shattered. I will never know the torment she was going through. Its easy for society to point their finger and say "freak-thats not right."

Especially where I live....

As I've mentioned before, suicide among transgendered people is extremely high. The roadblocks in understanding, and in getting surgical gender reassignment are huge. Society is opening up more to alternative sexualities, and I certainly hope that becomes the case for transgender/transsexual people. My brother has had a number of friends commit suicide over the same issue he is struggling with. I would be devastated to lose him over something that should be a non-issue.

By becoming the norm, do you mean not permanently assigning a sex to intersexed children? Or intersexuality itself? Because it IS the surgical norm these days to leave well enough alone...they USED to burn off small penises to form a clitoris, or construct a penis out of an enlarged clitoris, but few parents are opting for that anymore. Yes, we all want our children to be 'normal'. That goes for people whose children have any sort of birth defect. The reality is, there is incredible variation in our species, and 'normal' is just a concept, not a real physical standard.

Assigning the child blindly. In cases like the ones that you're talking about, parents aren't modifying the child, but there are other, more severe cases that they still are. Those are the cases that I'm saying there are no real winners no matter what the parents do.

Turning a small penis into a clit is cruel, I think most people would agree. But there are gray areas that aren't so obvious. Things like having a child who has his urethra located at the base of the penis, or whose scotum didn't fuse correctly. Most parents (I'm pretty sure), would opt to have these situations fixed one way or the other.

(As a note, I'm intersexed. There was debate over whether I should be male or female when I was born. They ended up settling on male. I know my parents were just doing what they thought was best for me, based on what they were told. But when I transitoned female it was more than my mom could handle.)

Assigning the child blindly. In cases like the ones that you're talking about, parents aren't modifying the child, but there are other, more severe cases that they still are. Those are the cases that I'm saying there are no real winners no matter what the parents do.

Turning a small penis into a clit is cruel, I think most people would agree. But there are gray areas that aren't so obvious. Things like having a child who has his urethra located at the base of the penis, or whose scotum didn't fuse correctly. Most parents (I'm pretty sure), would opt to have these situations fixed one way or the other.

(As a note, I'm intersexed. There was debate over whether I should be male or female when I was born. They ended up settling on male. I know my parents were just doing what they thought was best for me, based on what they were told. But when I transitoned female it was more than my mom could handle.)
I'm sorry to hear that:(. It's a tough issue for a lot of people, and so many parents, and children who have gone through this sort of thing feel isolated, and 'unique'...in a bad way.

I agree there are grey areas...especially if something becomes a health issue, a decision must be made. As a parent, I think I would find that decision to be a difficult one to make, but as with all things we parents do...we have to try to make the best choice, based on our beliefs and the information we have about the subject. As much as possible, I would like to leave it up to the child to decide once they grow older, but that isn't, as you've pointed out, always possible.

heres the choice:

1) get hormones and surgery
2) kill yourself
There's always the third option: Live with it.

But again: I don't know how bad it can be

There's always the third option: Live with it.

But again: I don't know how bad it can be
thats not an option...living with it would probably end in suicide

i know for a fact that i couldnt still be physically male in 10 years. i would be dead before i would do that

now, its very possible that its different for other people in the same situation, but thats how it is for me

There's always the third option: Live with it.

But again: I don't know how bad it can be
If by live with it, you mean making changes other than surgical to live with the gender you feel yourself to be, then I agree with you. If you mean live with it, as in pretend you're fine in the body you have, then no...because almost invariably, that leads to depression, and suicide.

As for how bad it can be...again, I can only approximate what my brother has gone through (and will continue to go through). Just picture yourself, outwardly 'normal'. Imagine that you have a terrible secret...you hate ketchup and everyone else is mad for it. Ketchup on cereal, ketchup on perogies, ketchup icecream...you can't stand the stuff, but you choke it down, day after day, afraid that if you let on you hate it, your family will abandon you, your friends will desert you, and you'll be labelled as someone who has 'chosen' to be different, just to be difficult. You're taught to 'be yourself', to 'listen to your inner voice' when it comes to making ANY decision but this one. In this case, you must betray yourself over and over again just to fit it, and you can never, ever talk about your difference. The confusion becomes so bad, you start to believe you are creating the problem, that if you could just learn to love ketchup, you'd be happy. So you try...but no matter how hard you work at it, your body and mind rebel. You hate yourself for being different. You are deathly afraid of admitting your difference. You are torn, and unsure, and completely alone. Getting up in the morning, knowing you're going to have to continue living a lie is enough to make you want to kill yourself rather than face it anymore.

No one would 'choose' that.

If by live with it, you mean making changes other than surgical to live with the gender you feel yourself to be, then I agree with you. If you mean live with it, as in pretend you're fine in the body you have, then no...because almost invariably, that leads to depression, and suicide.

As for how bad it can be...again, I can only approximate what my brother has gone through (and will continue to go through). Just picture yourself, outwardly 'normal'. Imagine that you have a terrible secret...you hate ketchup and everyone else is mad for it. Ketchup on cereal, ketchup on perogies, ketchup icecream...you can't stand the stuff, but you choke it down, day after day, afraid that if you let on you hate it, your family will abandon you, your friends will desert you, and you'll be labelled as someone who has 'chosen' to be different, just to be difficult. You're taught to 'be yourself', to 'listen to your inner voice' when it comes to making ANY decision but this one. In this case, you must betray yourself over and over again just to fit it, and you can never, ever talk about your difference. The confusion becomes so bad, you start to believe you are creating the problem, that if you could just learn to love ketchup, you'd be happy. So you try...but no matter how hard you work at it, your body and mind rebel. You hate yourself for being different. You are deathly afraid of admitting your difference. You are torn, and unsure, and completely alone. Getting up in the morning, knowing you're going to have to continue living a lie is enough to make you want to kill yourself rather than face it anymore.
By live with it I meant make changes other than surgery.

And is transsexuality/transgenderity a problem of society? Would people with gender issues feel better if everyone accepted that "they just don't like ketchup"? Or do they still crave for their change no matter how much their friends and families accepted them as they are?

If by live with it, you mean making changes other than surgical to live with the gender you feel yourself to be, then I agree with you. If you mean live with it, as in pretend you're fine in the body you have, then no...because almost invariably, that leads to depression, and suicide.

As for how bad it can be...again, I can only approximate what my brother has gone through (and will continue to go through). Just picture yourself, outwardly 'normal'. Imagine that you have a terrible secret...you hate ketchup and everyone else is mad for it. Ketchup on cereal, ketchup on perogies, ketchup icecream...you can't stand the stuff, but you choke it down, day after day, afraid that if you let on you hate it, your family will abandon you, your friends will desert you, and you'll be labelled as someone who has 'chosen' to be different, just to be difficult. You're taught to 'be yourself', to 'listen to your inner voice' when it comes to making ANY decision but this one. In this case, you must betray yourself over and over again just to fit it, and you can never, ever talk about your difference. The confusion becomes so bad, you start to believe you are creating the problem, that if you could just learn to love ketchup, you'd be happy. So you try...but no matter how hard you work at it, your body and mind rebel. You hate yourself for being different. You are deathly afraid of admitting your difference. You are torn, and unsure, and completely alone. Getting up in the morning, knowing you're going to have to continue living a lie is enough to make you want to kill yourself rather than face it anymore.
thats...thats a pretty good description, unfortunately

By live with it I meant make changes other than surgery.

And is transsexuality/transgenderity a problem of society? Would people with gender issues feel better if everyone accepted that "they just don't like ketchup"? Or do they still crave for their change no matter how much their friends and families accepted them as they are?
yes.

i have several friends who ive told and they just havent cared. they just said that if i ever need any help then theyre always there, and then things carried on pretty much as normal.

but i wont do it for my friends or family, ill do it for me

By live with it I meant make changes other than surgery.

And is transsexuality/transgenderity a problem of society? Would people with gender issues feel better if everyone accepted that "they just don't like ketchup"? Or do they still crave for their change no matter how much their friends and families accepted them as they are?
Do you mean, would they be happy if everyone accepted they felt female or male, despite their reproductive parts? And that being accepted as such would mean they wouldn't have surgery? I couldn't say. I suspect that some people would still need that physical change, and others would not. Some women are fine with the breasts they have...some are not, and get implants, or reductions, and I'd say society is pretty accepting of women's breasts:).

I'm not a big fan of women who wear so much make-up that she has to use a chisel to take it off, so you can imagine what I think of people mutilating their bodies.

But, I believe in allowing people to do whatever the hell they want so long as it doesn't impact upon other people. I'm also a big believer in letting people think whatever they want; so they may be able to spoil their bodies in whatever manner they want, but I don't have to like it, or even respect them afterwards.

The point of this thread is this: what do you know about transgenders/transsexuals? How do you feel about those who don't fit neatly into 'male' or 'female'? There is a lot of coverage of gays and lesbians, but still very little coverage of gender issues.

Never met one in person that I knew of. Seen some perform (The Kinsey Sicks, a great show, BTW). And I thought the Saturday Night Live character of "Pat" was dead on for how uncomfortable people feel about ambiguous gendered people.

*sighs*

Please, do go on, all of you. It's most illuminating to hear non-TG people opining on TG issues.

Any white people care to discuss black issues? Any men out there want to talk about women's issues? Any teenagers feel like discussing old-age pensions?

I'm not trying to stifle, just thought I'd point this out. So what you think entitles you all to talking about issues you know vanishingly little about?

Never met one in person that I knew of. Seen some perform (The Kinsey Sicks, a great show, BTW). And I thought the Saturday Night Live character of "Pat" was dead on for how uncomfortable people feel about ambiguous gendered people.
Pat was a fantastic character...I think most of us have come across someone who was gender ambiguous physically, and it really shows us how much gender colours how we interact with people. (Why should gender even matter? But it does.) Just think of this forum...how many times have you assumed a poster's gender, only to find out you were wrong? And how did that make you see their posts differently? Santa Barbara is a good example for me...because of the name, I assumed he was female (since in Spanish, it IS a female name), and I pictured 'her' as an aggressive, strident woman with little patience. Once I realised he was a man, my whole mental image change, and the tone of his posts were no longer so strident and uncompromising...just 'male'. Should I have made those gender assumptions? No, and I try to fight them...but the reality is, I'm as shaped by gender roles as anyone else, and sometimes things like that creep under my radar!

Do you mean, would they be happy if everyone accepted they felt female or male, despite their reproductive parts? And that being accepted as such would mean they wouldn't have surgery? I couldn't say. I suspect that some people would still need that physical change, and others would not.
Yes. Yes. That is EXACTLY what I mean

*sighs*

Please, do go on, all of you. It's most illuminating to hear non-TG people opining on TG issues.

Any white people care to discuss black issues? Any men out there want to talk about women's issues? Any teenagers feel like discussing old-age pensions?

I'm not trying to stifle, just thought I'd point this out. So what you think entitles you all to talking about issues you know vanishingly little about?

I'm admitting I know precious little.

*sighs*

Please, do go on, all of you. It's most illuminating to hear non-TG people opining on TG issues.

Any white people care to discuss black issues? Any men out there want to talk about women's issues? Any teenagers feel like discussing old-age pensions?

I'm not trying to stifle, just thought I'd point this out. So what you think entitles you all to talking about issues you know vanishingly little about?
I'm just trying to understand. And thus far, the thread helped me quite some bit in understanding

*sighs*

Please, do go on, all of you. It's most illuminating to hear non-TG people opining on TG issues.

Any white people care to discuss black issues? Any men out there want to talk about women's issues? Any teenagers feel like discussing old-age pensions?

I'm not trying to stifle, just thought I'd point this out. So what you think entitles you all to talking about issues you know vanishingly little about?
Hi Dobbs!

I'll answer this one:)

Same thing that I feel 'entitles' me to talk about any issues that don't directly affect me...I like to learn more about things, and that means examining my thoughts about them. I'm not a lesbian, but I don't feel I shouldn't discuss homosexuality. I have a lot of experience with lesbians and issues they face...I'm on the outside, looking in, but I do have some perspective.

My brother is transgendered. Again, on the outside, looking it, and I have to stretch my imagination to understand him, but it's necessary, both to me, and to him.

I'm a minority, but I can talk about white issues. I'm a woman, but I can talk about men's issues. Not necessarily with the authority of being on the 'inside', but with the authority of a human being, trying to wrap my head around the differences within our species and our cultures.

It doesn't make me an expert. Hell, I'm not even an expert or a 'spokesperson' for Natives, even though I am one.

Wow...things got quiet here *watches people withdraw from the conversation in discomfort*

Well, it's okay - I just shudder at the thought of people trying to 'wrap their heads around' things that matter to me, but have little or no impact in their lives.

Like having rich white friends trying to 'wrap their heads around' being poor, and non-white. Yeah, it's an interesting exercise, but what of it? You're still just making educated guesses. Nope, you'll never know what it's really all about.

But that's okay, too. We don't all have to know what's going on inside each other's heads. Vive la difference! I don't think you need to be able to see through my eyes to be able to give me my just due - privacy, and the unfettered ability to be who I know I am.

But hey, what does a TG know? This is your topic, not mine.

You're still just making educated guesses. Nope, you'll never know what it's really all about.


Well, tell us about your TG experiences.

People are people.

If someone who looks for all the world "male" to you says they are actually female, why argue? Who are you to decide another person's gender?

I feel bad for transgendered and transsexuals, not because I think there is anything wrong with them, but because of how others react to them. It is very difficult for a person who doesn't fit a societal norm to find a loving partner ok with them as they are. It's amazing how many times someone has told a story about how they went out with a woman they had met online/etc. only to find out GASP! "she was actually a man" or "she used to be a man." Unfortunately, it is very difficult to explain to these people that she always was female, other people just couldn't see it.

I'll talk about my life experience if it's salient - and I'm not persuaded to think it is, at this moment...or in connection to this topic.

I could just as easily ask you to detail your non-TG experiences, but I gather you'd find my life experience as a TG to be of greater interest. Well, I'm not about to hijack Sinuhue's thread.

I wish your sibling well, btw Sinuhue.

Well, it's okay - I just shudder at the thought of people trying to 'wrap their heads around' things that matter to me, but have little or no impact in their lives.Frankly, it has a heck of an impact on my life, considering I've nearly lost my brother to suicide over it, and it's caused some major ripples in my family as my parents try to understand an issue they weren't even aware existed. It matters to me, because my brother wants me to support him. It matters to Nadkor, because he's actually going through this. I think it matters to others, because many of them, like my parents, don't even really know that it is an issue for many people.

It's an issue for me as a teacher too...because guaranteed, I have students who are struggling with gender issues, and if I give them total and utter privacy (re: ignore the issue altogether), I'm just as bad as the people who actively ridicule them...I help isolate and belittle them with my silence.

First it's an issue.
Then it's accepted.
Then it's a non-issue.


Like having rich white friends trying to 'wrap their heads around' being poor, and non-white. Yeah, it's an interesting exercise, but what of it? You're still just making educated guesses. Nope, you'll never know what it's really all about.
Does it mean they shouldn't try? If someone wants to know about what it's like to be a Native, I'm happy about it, because frankly, too often we are the discarded and ignored second-class citizens in a country that used to be ours. They won't ever 'get it'...but they might start to reflect on how their actions and attitudes directly affect Natives.

But that's okay, too. We don't all have to know what's going on inside each other's heads. Vive la difference! I don't think you need to be able to see through my eyes to be able to give me my just due - privacy, and the unfettered ability to be who I know I am.

But hey, what does a TG know? This is your topic, not mine.If by starting a topic of dicussion, you think I have laid ownership to it, then you have misunderstood what a conversation is. It's not a one way, or even two way street. It's an intersection, where various points of view can meet. You don't have to share, you don't have to participate....but then again you are absolutely free to.

I feel bad for transgendered and transsexuals, not because I think there is anything wrong with them, but because of how others react to them.

Well then don't feel badly for TGs, feel badly for those who take issue with TGs. They need to re-think their outlook, and could probably use help doing it.

I'll talk about my life experience if it's salient - and I'm not persuaded to think it is, at this moment...or in connection to this topic.

I could just as easily ask you to detail your non-TG experiences, but I gather you'd find my life experience as a TG to be of greater interest. Well, I'm not about to hijack Sinuhue's thread.

I wish your sibling well, btw Sinuhue.
Thanks Dobbs:).

And as I sit here and think about it, a thread started by a non-native about native issues might strike me bit odd. No, not might, most definitely would...but I'd also be a bit happy that it wasn't just me bringing up a topic that is important to me all the time:). Plus, I'd feel completely free to hijack the topic, since it pertains directly to me anyway!

Well then don't feel badly for TGs, feel badly for those who take issue with TGs. They need to re-think their outlook, and could probably use help doing it.
That's a good take on it...no group is going to be helped by sympathy...it isn't constructive, and it merely disempowers. The ones missing out are the ones who limit themselves to one race, one language, one gender, one sexuality, one *insert any and all descriptors here*.

I feel bad for anyone who would discourage disussion by anyone who is just trying to understand where another is coming from... it should be encouraged, and celebrated is someone wants to ask questions and perhaps find a common ground with someone who they might not have otherwise. Black to white, Poor to rich, Transgendered to non.... If we do not nurture intelligent discussion then all one is left with is crude jokes and stereotypes...

Hear hear Silver Cities.

To understand is the first step to acceptance

Frankly, it has a heck of an impact on my life, considering I've nearly lost my brother to suicide over it, and it's caused some major ripples in my family as my parents try to understand an issue they weren't even aware existed. It matters to me, because my brother wants me to support him. It matters to Nadkor, because he's actually going through this. I think it matters to others, because many of them, like my parents, don't even really know that it is an issue for many people.

Yeah, suicide looks pretty tempting in the darkest hours. I've been down that road, too. Didn't get the whole picture about Nadkor (what, you going down SRS route, Nadkor?), either. I've decided not to pursue SRS myself, but that's due in large part to an incredibly supportive partner, amongst other things. So it's mix-and-match erogenous zones for me. Woot.

If by starting a topic of dicussion, you think I have laid ownership to it, then you have misunderstood what a conversation is. It's not a one way, or even two way street. It's an intersection, where various points of view can meet. You don't have to share, you don't have to participate....but then again you are absolutely free to.

It's just kinda funny hearing people talk about it in the abstract while it's something I live with, is all. Yes, sharing is good, but I guess not everything is worth sharing. Does that make any sense to you, Sinuhue?

It's just kinda funny hearing people talk about it in the abstract while it's something I live with, is all. Yes, sharing is good, but I guess not everything is worth sharing. Does that make any sense to you, Sinuhue?

Well, if it's any consolation, I wouldn't care what gender you were, if I get to take you up on the ice fishing and seal whacking.

Black to white, Poor to rich, Transgendered to non.... If we do not nurture intelligent discussion then all one is left with is crude jokes and stereotypes...

Well, you're forgetting one other thing you're left with - the certainty that however far removed from your own experiences, the life experiences of TGs are just as valid as your own. And really, are they so far rmoved, at the end of the day?

Like I said before, I'm not trying to stifle discussion, just throwing my two cents' worth in.

Yeah, suicide looks pretty tempting in the darkest hours. I've been down that road, too. Didn't get the whole picture about Nadkor (what, you going down SRS route, Nadkor?),
hopefully. ive still got to actually build up the courage to tell anyone in 'real life' apart from those two friends who i knew wouldnt care. different matter with my parents and family. then its hormones, and eventually surgery when im able to

Well, if it's any consolation, I wouldn't care what gender you were, if I get to take you up on the ice fishing and seal whacking.

LOL you remembered. Damn dirty Greenpeace!!

It's just kinda funny hearing people talk about it in the abstract while it's something I live with, is all. Yes, sharing is good, but I guess not everything is worth sharing. Does that make any sense to you, Sinuhue?
Yes, it does, and I don't think Dobbs is trying to stifle anything...as per my earlier example, if someone started a thread and said, "Hey, let's imagine what it would be like to live on a reservation in Canada", I'd find it pretty damn odd. Depending on my mood, and the tone of the conversation, I may or may not add my intimate knowledge into the thread.

Then again, I'd have to hope that whoever was 'trying to imagine' was doing it for some constructive purpose...and if it helped them to understand the challenges many of my people face, I think it would be a positive thing. Still weird though:)

LOL you remembered. Damn dirty Greenpeace!!

Of course I remembered. You said the magic word, "beer".

Never lived on a rez, never been to a rez...not that I'm 'status' anyway, just a run-of-the-mill urban mongrel without a card. I see your point.

Then again, I've never really thought of what life on the rez is like...sorry, just never thought of it.

Never lived on a rez, never been to a rez...not that I'm 'status' anyway, just a run-of-the-mill urban mongrel without a card. I see your point.

Then again, I've never really thought of what life on the rez is like...sorry, just never thought of it.
I bet it might stray into your thoughts now when you least expect it....MUAHHAAHAHHAAA!

When I was a kid I was always into girly things more than boy things. I hung out mostly with girls and played with dolls, ect. Fortunately, when I got older and the division between the sexes widened a bit, and I went though puberty, I slowly migrated over to the male side of behaviour. I'm still nowhere near as 'male' in my behaviour as most guys though. When other guys do all the usual stupid stuff they do to look cool I watch and think of how idiotic they are, and I never seem to experience a great deal of agression. Don't even talk to me about sports.
It's sort of ironic, seeing as I consider myself to be more obessed with women than usual.

When I was a kid I was always into girly things more than boy things. I hung out mostly with girls and played with dolls, ect. Fortunately, when I got older and the division between the sexes widened a bit, and I went though puberty, I slowly migrated over to the male side of behaviour. I'm still nowhere near as 'male' in my behaviour as most guys though. When other guys do all the usual stupid stuff they do to look cool I watch and think of how idiotic they are, and I never seem to experience a great deal of agression. Don't even talk to me about sports.
It's sort of ironic, seeing as I consider myself to be more obessed with women than usual.
Then you have struggled with gender roles and stereotypes, as most of us have at one point or another.

Well then don't feel badly for TGs, feel badly for those who take issue with TGs. They need to re-think their outlook, and could probably use help doing it.

Point taken. I didn't mean that to sound like I pity anyone - just htat I know they have to go through things I can't even imagine, and I want to do what I can to help get rid of that.

Usually what I feel for those who take issues with TGs is either pity (because they are missing out on dealing with people rather than stereoptyes), anger (well, this one's obvious), or condescension (because I think I know better than them. I usually try to keep this one from showing and gently explain to them the error of their ways, but it is difficult).

Hmm, how to say this mithout mis-stepping:

I've noticed those who seem to have the largest axes to grind where TG people are concerned have a tendency toward lashing out at minority groups in general.

I've noticed further that those who tend to lash out at minority groups like thinking of themselves as being part of an unspoken majority.

Finally, it hasn't escaped my notice that memebrs of unspoken majorities tend to behave as though their value-sets are endangered by the existence of minorities, or minority points of view. A tendency towards behaving as though they, the majority, are oppressed by inclusivity and multiculturalism.

That seemed to work (third draft). Except I've gone all soft, and haven't really said who I'm talking about. That might be for the best though, as the 'unspoken majority' I referred to gets all hot under the collar and runs to the mods if you slag 'em...

Finally, it hasn't escaped my notice that memebrs of unspoken majorities tend to behave as though their value-sets are endangered by the existence of minorities, or minority points of view. A tendency towards behaving as though they, the majority, are oppressed by inclusivity and multiculturalism.


Yes! So often all of these discussions boil down to "so and so's existence (via their actions, their culture, their skin colour, their whatever) threaten MY existence (via my culture, my skin colour, my whatever)". You hear the same thing in anti-immigration rants, anti-race mixing rants, anti-homosexuality rants...

What is threatened by inclusivity and multiculturalism is insularity and homogenity. And hooray for that!

What is threatened by inclusivity and multiculturalism is insularity and homogenity. And hooray for that!

I grew up with the expectation that my world, and my locality was inclusive and multicultural, and not some insular, homogenious corner of the world, away from and not a part of this intricate tapestry we call existence. My world isn't abstracted or detached from my experience. I believe strongly that to directly experience is to validate my spiritual beliefs - and I have a difficult time understanding those who choose instead to prejudge, not having had any direct experience of life themselves.

I grew up with the expectation that my world, and my locality was inclusive and multicultural, and not some insular, homogenious corner of the world, away from and not a part of this intricate tapestry we call existence. My world isn't abstracted or detached from my experience. I believe strongly that to directly experience is to validate my spiritual beliefs - and I have a difficult time understanding those who choose instead to prejudge, not having had any direct experience of life themselves.

People feel safer if they aren't challenged. After all, if they allow someone to challenge one pre-set opinion, they might *gasp* have to examine them all! I don't really understand it etiher, as I don't think we can really know anything without constant questioning and challenge.

People feel safer if they aren't challenged. After all, if they allow someone to challenge one pre-set opinion, they might *gasp* have to examine them all! I don't really understand it etiher, as I don't think we can really know anything without constant questioning and challenge.

What I do understand is that when majorities harbour self-doubt, they seek out minority scapegoats to project their anxiety upon. Maybe that's why I'd sooner be left unknown, yet protected by law.

What I do understand is that when majorities harbour self-doubt, they seek out minority scapegoats to project their anxiety upon. Maybe that's why I'd sooner be left unknown, yet protected by law.

I made my father in law uncomfortable. I'm not a TG or TV, nor do I know one personally. But I find the Kinsey Sicks a riot, and they happen to tweak that nerve rather hard in their performance. My wife and I took the in-laws to the show - her mom didn't have a problem, but her dad was bursting a blood vessel.

http://www.kinseysicks.com/

What I do understand is that when majorities harbour self-doubt, they seek out minority scapegoats to project their anxiety upon. Maybe that's why I'd sooner be left unknown, yet protected by law.
I can understand that. We still don't live in societies where scapegoating is an antiquated notion :(

What I do understand is that when majorities harbour self-doubt, they seek out minority scapegoats to project their anxiety upon. Maybe that's why I'd sooner be left unknown, yet protected by law.

I think it is incredibly important to fight against the scapegoating as well, however.

As naive as it may sound, I would really like to raise my children in a society where it doesn't matter what gender, biological sex, or color they are - where it doesn't matter what their personal beliefs (religious/etc) may be - but that people can simply get to know them and make judgements accordingly.

Impossible to do? Maybe - but I think that it is something we can and should work towards.

What makes me angry is that in my culture, transgendered people were once accepted and revered as being two-spirited, having aspects of both the masculine and feminine in balance. They were often chosen to apprentice to our shamans, or to learn the medicine for men and women. Now, my people are just as narrow minded and cruel towards those with differences, especially within their own communities. I guess that's a case of "someone hits me, so I hit someone else, then they hit someone else" and so on. Sad.

What makes me angry is that in my culture, transgendered people were once accepted and revered as being two-spirited, having aspects of both the masculine and feminine in balance. They were often chosen to apprentice to our shamans, or to learn the medicine for men and women. Now, my people are just as narrow minded and cruel towards those with differences, especially within their own communities. I guess that's a case of "someone hits me, so I hit someone else, then they hit someone else" and so on. Sad.

I find it very sad how little of the good points of Native American culture got incorporated into most of society and how very many of the less admirable parts of Western culture got incorporated into Native American culture.

I think a good study of history would do everyone a lot of good.

Gender is a social construct. Anyone who opposes transgender surgery is tacitly trying to stymie sexual equality.

Gender is a social construct. Anyone who opposes transgender surgery is tacitly trying to stymie sexual equality.
If gender was a purely social construct, then there would be no need to change the physical manifestation of gender, would there?

If gender was a purely social construct, then there would be no need to change the physical manifestation of gender, would there?
well...this is just me, but i dont want to change to fit in with societys stereotypes, i want to change for myself

well...this is just me, but i dont want to change to fit in with societys stereotypes, i want to change for myself
That's my point. If being transgendered was just about not fitting into the social construct of gender, and we had a society that HAD no social construct of gender, I STILL think there would be people who would want to physically change their gender. I don't think gender is purely social, or purely biological, but a blend of the two.

To all those who think we should just 'deal with it':
You don't know how much it hurts being like this. You don't know how it feels to be in a body that doesn't match your mind. It's a mental pain of a sort most everybody will never experience.
There's only two ways to 'deal with it'. Correct your gender to bring it in line with the way you feel, or die. Because that's the way it is with most of us, eventuslly the weight of living in the wrong body gets too much, and oftentimes it all ends in death.

I bet most of you haven't heard of 'the 50% rule'. It's an offhand guideline bandied about by people over transsexual death rates. The 50% rule is this:
By the age of 30, 50% of all transsexuals die, usually by their own hand.

Does that seem like too many? Well, it is. Even one person dying by their own hand due to not being accepted is too many.

You people, the people that say we should just 'deal with it', you are some of the cause of this. Do you know how much it hurts knowing that you're living a lie, and you can't tell anybody about the way you really feel because you'll be ostracized? It hurts like hell, having a fundamental facet of your being that must be hidden and suppressed so nobody notices.

Pretending to be normal and trying to live life normally doesn't work for most of us. That's the sort of thing that leaves people dead.

Please, if you have a heart, don't tell people they should 'just deal with it'. It's not going to help them.

As I look back at this, I've realized that I wrote this from purely the standpoint of a transsexual individual and left out other transgendered sorts, so don't jump down my throat about me focusing in too much on that one bit of the topic, because it's the only bit I know about.

I don't think anyone will jump down your throat about it:) Thanks Neo! You've said it much better than I ever could.

Gender is a social construct. Anyone who opposes transgender surgery is tacitly trying to stymie sexual equality.

It might be more correct to state that gender roles are a purely social construct.

From my understanding, it isn't simply that transgendered persons feel more like they fit into a perceived gender role, but that they really do feel that they are the opposite sex.

well...Neo has just put it better than i could ever try to. listen to her

Well, the main problem I have, is that it's entirely wordless. I recently managed to tell my Dad... to say he's ENTIRELY accepting is a major overstatement. To say that he's exiled me is equally incorrect, given that he's sitting about 10 feet away from me at the moment (cursed livingroom pc.) What this means to me, is that anyone who I try to explain this to, I almost inevitably fail. I don't have the words for how I feel. I feel wrong, as I am, and I need to change it, it's that simple. But that's not always detailed enough for people who feel they should be convinced ("I'm not convinced" is my dads exact response, near enough) that this is what I need.

(as an aside... any reason why you've been dodging msn for the last 3 days, Nadkor? Slightly worrying. (obsessive side cracking through.... ) )

(as an aside... any reason why you've been dodging msn for the last 3 days, Nadkor? Slightly worrying. (obsessive side cracking through.... ) )
oh yea...i was gonna telegram you actually. my computer is broken, so im on my dads laptop, but he doesnt like MSN being used on it. thinks anything other than Word, Excel and Firefox is going to destroy his computer

oh yea...i was gonna telegram you actually. my computer is broken, so im on my dads laptop, but he doesnt like MSN being used on it. thinks anything other than Word, Excel and Firefox is going to destroy his computer


solution lies with msn web messenger. As far as I'm aware, it doesn't download anything onto your pc. *google search msn web messenger*... it's how I got online at uni when I still went.


Woops, end hijack.

As far as I am concerned whatever floats ya boat. I am easy going, it is the person, not there gender that matters to me.

Chances of me dating a transexual are slim, but I don't have a problem with them.