NationStates Jolt Archive

I was wondering what you guys thought of the US-India "relationship"...Does anyone think it's important? Do you give a damn about the region in general?

Although i'm a wellwisher, I thought I'd find out what people think. So feel free to sound out on pet peeves/ stereotypes/ or anything relevant to india

Everyone I have ever met has viewed India as a country the produces incredibly intelligent and hard working people of incredible caliber.

Sometimes I think there is a bit of jealously, actually.

I know I feel it, this one Indian kid I know graduated with honors two years early. I'm just barely passing by the skin of my teeth.

Of course, I'm sure the more ignorant people view them as "those damn foreigners who work for less money then we do."

I personally view India in a positive light. American diplomats should cultivate the relationship between the two great democracies. I think they are doing that in my opinion. Especially since 9/11. There has been alot more discussion between our two nations. I think a strong US/India relationship would be very positive for both nations.

India is certainly one of the economic Superpowers of the future. So India does and will matter much more in the future

I think that in the global arena, relationships between all nations matter.

India-U.S. relations are very important. At the moment, they appear to be closer to Russia(because Pakistan is closer to us), but if we somehow fix the porblem between India and Pakistan we can have an excelent relation with all nations of south asia.

I disagree with the caste system.

I disagree with the caste system.
seconded

The caste system was made basically non-existant in the 1950's.

Only radical hindu's want it back(and those are the same people who want to expell all the muslims, sikhs, and buddhists from India. Otherwise known as the BJP.)

The caste system was made basically non-existant in the 1950's.

Only radical hindu's want it back(and those are the same people who want to expell all the muslims, sikhs, and buddhists from India. Otherwise known as the BJP.)
It is hard to believe that millenia-old religious and cultural traditions can be made to disappear in a single decade. I've heard that caste is still quite a powerful institution in India. Indians I've talked to here in the US defend the caste system, and the BJP is widely popular among Hindus. After all, just last year the Prime Minister of India was from the BJP.

It is hard to believe that millenia-old religious and cultural traditions can be made to disappear in a single decade. I've heard that caste is still quite a powerful institution in India. Indians I've talked to here in the US defend the caste system, and the BJP is widely popular among Hindus. After all, just last year the Prime Minister of India was from the BJP.

It was officially banned, and you can't get a job in the government just because of your caste. In your social life you may be one thing or another, but someone from the "priest" caste can become a toilet-scrubber and a person from the lowest caste(can't remember ><) can become millionares.

And this year the Prime Minister of India is from Congresss party. And its a Sikh. Yay for a secular, all inclusive India!

Besides, If a BJP-controlled government starts to crack down on minorities(ESPECIALLY the 150,000,000+ Muslims), they will be screwed. Especially since Pakistan and Bangladesh(at least Pakistan) will answer the pleas of the muslims who are being persecuted and invade. Or at least offer refuge.

India is pretty screwed without it's muslims.

I like it! India's history and people are very interesting; they have a rich culture.

Now, as an American pragmatist, I view it as an economic competitor, which could threaten the hegemony of my nation, which I'd prefer not to happen. But if it could help counterbalance China, I wouldn't mind. But that's the Kissinger in me.

Of course it matters. All nations matter.

I'm glad that many Indians have more money because of the new jobs they have, but at the same time, I'm fucking pissed at our corporations for flushing our workers down the toilet. They only hire Indians (as well as other Asian people) because they work for far less than Americans.

They only hire Indians (as well as other Asian people) because they work for far less than Americans.But for how long? Eventually, they'll have the same cost of living as we do. Then corporate America will have to find another country. This is, ironically, how America got it's start. ;)

It was officially banned, and you can't get a job in the government just because of your caste.
That is a naive attitude toward things. THe US decided in the 1860s that all Americans should be treated as equal citizens in this nation, but racial prejudice in this country was still strong for more than a century. Just because India's bureacracy bans caste doesn't mean people will suddenly stop respecting age old traditions. There's still open discrimination at all ranks of society. The affirmative action program in India for untouchables provokes great conflict... there are still violent Brahmin riots against affirmative action. In the US you won't see white people rioting over AA for blacks, but in India these thousand-year old discriminatory and racist traditions seem far more entrenched and respected than any racism seen in other countries.
In your social life you may be one thing or another, but someone from the "priest" caste can become a toilet-scrubber and a person from the lowest caste(can't remember ><) can become millionares.
Such success stories are rare, and you'd much more often hear about a successful low caste person getting attacked by higher caste people in order to "put him in his place." Even in the aid effort for last year's tsunami, there was widespread discrimination against untouchables and lower caste people. The Indian government tries to hide these things, and that is why India has always objected to any UN initiative to address caste discrimination. In other parts of the world people who are opposed to interracial marriage are generally seen as ignorant apes, but in India inter-caste marriage is still taboo.

And this year the Prime Minister of India is from Congresss party. And its a Sikh. Yay for a secular, all inclusive India!
That is not the whole story. Manmohan Singh is the current Prime Minister of INdia only because the rightfully elected Prime Minister, Sonia Gandhi, was born a Catholic. The hardline BJP Hindu nationalists objected to her ethnic background so Congress Party pulled Gandhi down even though she was the leader of the party, and Singh was put in place as a compromise. Nationalism and xenophobia still heavily influences Indian politics. Besides, Sikhs are respected by all faiths nowadays, partially because they are prone to effective and violent uprising against any oppressors so everyone leaves them alone. They aren't very persecuted in modern India.


Besides, If a BJP-controlled government starts to crack down on minorities(ESPECIALLY the 150,000,000+ Muslims), they will be screwed. Especially since Pakistan and Bangladesh(at least Pakistan) will answer the pleas of the muslims who are being persecuted and invade. Or at least offer refuge.

India is pretty screwed without it's muslims.
Regardless of the hindu-muslim relations, caste is alive and well in India. Muslims in the India subcontinent are influenced by Hindus and have castes too. Untouchables continue to be treated like crap, and that is why every year there are hundreds of thousands of untouchables who mass convert to Buddhism or Christianity in order to protest against the caste system.

But for how long? Eventually, they'll have the same cost of living as we do. Then corporate America will have to find another country. This is, ironically, how America got it's start. ;)

Yeah. My problem is that there are no laws against our corporations doing this... But, that's for another time and another thread.

I do hope that India becomes cleaner in the future. From the pictures and footage I've seen, it looks quite nasty.

The caste system was made basically non-existant in the 1950's."basically" ?

That is a naive attitude toward things. THe US decided in the 1860s that all Americans should be treated as equal citizens in this nation, but racial prejudice in this country was still strong for more than a century. Just because India's bureacracy bans caste doesn't mean people will suddenly stop respecting age old traditions. There's still open discrimination at all ranks of society. The affirmative action program in India for untouchables provokes great conflict... there are still violent Brahmin riots against affirmative action. In the US you won't see white people rioting over AA for blacks, but in India these thousand-year old discriminatory and racist traditions seem far more entrenched and respected than any racism seen in other countries.

I know, dangit! All I way saying is that India officially banned the Caste system(well, not ban it, but made it a title-thing only). I am in no-way defending Hinduism.

Such success stories are rare, and you'd much more often hear about a successful low caste person getting attacked by higher caste people in order to "put him in his place." Even in the aid effort for last year's tsunami, there was widespread discrimination against untouchables and lower caste people. The Indian government tries to hide these things, and that is why India has always objected to any UN initiative to address caste discrimination. In other parts of the world people who are opposed to interracial marriage are generally seen as ignorant apes, but in India inter-caste marriage is still taboo.

I was just pointing out that it is possible, especially now, where India is booming. People of all castes are becoming richer and living better lives.


That is not the whole story. Manmohan Singh is the current Prime Minister of INdia only because the rightfully elected Prime Minister, Sonia Gandhi, was born a Catholic. The hardline BJP Hindu nationalists objected to her ethnic background so Congress Party pulled Gandhi down even though she was the leader of the party, and Singh was put in place as a compromise. Nationalism and xenophobia still heavily influences Indian politics. Besides, Sikhs are respected by all faiths nowadays, partially because they are prone to effective and violent uprising against any oppressors so everyone leaves them alone. They aren't very persecuted in modern India.

No, Gandhi stepped down because she didn't want to be Prime Minister. Of course Nationalism and xenophobia are still heavy influences in Inda; Where aren't they?(except for the uber-left wing countries of Europe. Like Holland).

And you say Sikhs aren't as presecuted any more? Do you even live on the same planet as us. Not even 20 years ago, the Hindu government used tanks on a Sikh temple.


Regardless of the hindu-muslim relations, caste is alive and well in India. Muslims in the India subcontinent are influenced by Hindus and have castes too. Untouchables continue to be treated like crap, and that is why every year there are hundreds of thousands of untouchables who mass convert to Buddhism or Christianity in order to protest against the caste system.

Muslims of the Indian Sub-continent do not have "castes". Have you lived in the Indian sub-continent with sub-continent muslims? I don't think so. Have I? Yes. In fact, Islam is what holds Pakistan, Bangladesh, and all muslim communities together. Islam says that everyone is equal. In the mosque, you will see the rich man praying next to his cook, and they are considered equal.

I'm not the most knowledgable about Hinduism, but I sure do know about Islam.

India and China, geographically close and comprising a large chunk of the world's population are the current industrial powerhouses. Their economies are growing ridiculously fast and are outpacing the rest of the West. Any nation would be smart to have a pragmatic relationship with India.

"basically" ?

Yes, Basically.

The government officially banned it, but as Trilateral Commission has pointed out, in alot of areas it is still being followed. Probably not on the uber-modern streets of Kolkatta, Mumbai, or New Delhi, but in rural Rajasthan, for example...

I personally believe India is vitally important. At least to my evil plan.

India is vital in my plan to contain China, should that problem come up.

I know, dangit! All I way saying is that India officially banned the Caste system(well, not ban it, but made it a title-thing only). I am in no-way defending Hinduism.
I know, but I was simply addressing your original statement that "The caste system was made basically non-existant in the 1950's". Clearly it isn't true, although reforms continue to be made.

I was just pointing out that it is possible, especially now, where India is booming. People of all castes are becoming richer and living better lives.
I agree, it is definitely possible; caste system has been eroding for centuries, and many great improvements have been made. But that doesn't change my original observation that I am opposed to caste systems. Caste is still far too important a component of Indian culture.


No, Gandhi stepped down because she didn't want to be Prime Minister.
She said that to save face. It is ridiculous and naive to expect that someone would go through all the trouble of getting elected Prime Minister of India, and then step down "for personal reasons" and then still retain leadership of the party. She stepped down simply because the BJP nationalists objected to her ethnic background.
Read this article entitled "BJP continues protests against Sonia Gandhi" dated May 2004 (before she stepped down)
http://www.indian-elections.com/latest-news/india-elections-news479.html
Of course, the fact that foreign person can by law become PM of India makes India that much more progressive than a place like the US, but thousand year old cultural expectations still overrules legal systems that are barely half a century old.


Of course Nationalism and xenophobia are still heavy influences in Inda; Where aren't they?
Such overt blatant racist/religious discrimination is not seen in the US, western Europe, Latin America, although it is common in other parts of the world. Sonia Gandhi was rightfully elected by the citizens of India and then kicked out due to nationalist pressure. I think nationalism and distrust of foreigners is strongest in India, which is one of the most religious societies in the world and fiercely proud of their own culture.
And you say Sikhs aren't as presecuted any more?
Obviously Sikhs aren't persecuted, you made the point yourself. The PM is a Sikh, and a disproportionate percentage of the top military brass is Sikh.
Do you even live on the same planet as us. Not even 20 years ago, the Hindu government used tanks on a Sikh temple.
Read more about the reasons of the 1984 Indian action in Punjab. It was NOT about Hindus discriminating against Sikhs or Sikhs discriminating against Hindus. It was a small group of radical Punjabi separatists who barricaded themselves in Sikh holy sites, so the government went in, outraging previously neutral Sikhs everywhere. There was no racial/religious discrimination against Sikhs at all in India at the time. Sikhs were found in top levels of Indian government ever since independence. After all, the hero of the 1971 Indo-Pak war was Jagjit Singh Aurora, a Sikh Indian general who was successful fighting the Pakistanis in East Pakistan (Bangladesh). Sikhs were active in the Indian Army during the 1984 crisis, and many were top generals. Even Indira Gandhi's own bodyguards were Sikhs, although these Sikhs eventually betrayed and assassinated her.




Muslims of the Indian Sub-continent do not have "castes". Have you lived in the Indian sub-continent with sub-continent muslims? I don't think so. Have I? Yes. In fact, Islam is what holds Pakistan, Bangladesh, and all muslim communities together. Islam says that everyone is equal. In the mosque, you will see the rich man praying next to his cook, and they are considered equal.

I'm not the most knowledgable about Hinduism, but I sure do know about Islam.
Of course caste in Indian Islam is not as strict as caste in Hindu Islam. But people naturally absorb the ideas of neighboring people, and Muslims in INdia are no exception. They adopt certain aspects of Hindu practices.

http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand150204.htm

<snip since I think that we are basically ok on this...except for the sikh part. But I'm too tired to debate that right now>


Of course caste in Indian Islam is not as strict as caste in Hindu Islam. But people naturally absorb the ideas of neighboring people, and Muslims in INdia are no exception. They adopt certain aspects of Hindu practices.

http://www.countercurrents.org/sikand150204.htm

Well, you said Indian sub-continent Muslims. Trust me, Muslims in Bangladesh and Pakistan(which combined outnumber any other group of muslims on earth, Including India and Indonesia) are (at least spiritually) all equal. Yes, Certain elements of the Caste System have been integrated into Indian Islam, but it is nothing near the scale or scope of Hindu Caste system.

bump

Personally, I am in love with India ... well, infatuated at least. Some of the best music, best movies, most beautiful women, most beautiful poetry, and some of the most amazing art have come out of India.

India gave us some of the best food in the world (rivaled in my mind only by Cajun cuisine). India gave the world the Buddha. India gave the world the Natyashastra.

Ah hell, I could go on and on and on. India gave the world, well, the world.

Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam!

As an Indian-Canadian Muslim, I'd just like to say - INDIA ROX!

Oh and The Lightning Star has the right idea :D

Especially with the whole China-India agreement now - *coughmytheorywasrightcough* - India is most definitely going to be an international force. Not that it isn't already.

Bollywood smokes Hollywood, Miss India smokes Miss USA, and of course Indians know how to party (inviting half the city per occasion).

I was wondering what you guys thought of the US-India "relationship"...Does anyone think it's important? Do you give a damn about the region in general?

Although i'm a wellwisher, I thought I'd find out what people think. So feel free to sound out on pet peeves/ stereotypes/ or anything relevant to india

They have nukes, so we should be concerned with them.

They have nukes, so we should be concerned with them.
The world is concerned with the US. They have tons of nukes.

India needs to change it's image. It's very tarnished with crazy amounts of poverty, not that it isn't otherwise, but it's different from the China. Somehow in the back of my head I don't forsee India being another superpower, compared to China. Maybe it's because we hear so little of it. :p



Hopefully I can go to Manipal next year, and see my friend in his university. I hear they truck in dead bodies everynight to the university for research. Woohoo.

As I said, Pakistan and India need to get their act together. They are like brothers who are secretly jealous of one another, yet they don't know it. Pakistan(the little brother) is more jealous and is smaller, but he can still pack a punch due to the fact that his is pretty much under control(except for his apendix [read: WAziristan] which isn't in that good of a condition), while India (the big brother) is bigger, but has alot more problems.

As I said, Pakistan and India need to get their act together. They are like brothers who are secretly jealous of one another, yet they don't know it. Pakistan(the little brother) is more jealous and is smaller, but he can still pack a punch due to the fact that his is pretty much under control(except for his apendix [read: WAziristan] which isn't in that good of a condition), while India (the big brother) is bigger, but has alot more problems.

Pakistan is interesting because everyone secretly hates it, but nobody can do without it. If Pakistan were to descend into chaos it would be terrible for her people, but far worse for India, since they'd have to deal with terrorists who might get their hands on some of those nukes.

That should put India on the same side as America, but right now people (in India) aren't very happy about the fact that we're selling F-16s to Pakistan.

Does anyone else think that's a little messed up??

if the great powers of the world continue to ignore the east one day the east is going to be big enough and strong enough to ignore the west.....i cant wait :D .
china and india are on the way up. within 100 years...they (especially china) will be the super powers. ignoring india in its infancy as a super power is glaobal suicide, not more so than threatening it....as for china....piss them off and in 80 years Boom no more NY or london

Bollywood smokes Hollywood, Miss India smokes Miss USA, and of course Indians know how to party (inviting half the city per occasion).
I agree with the Miss India statement. I mean, those Indian girls, mine, mine, mine. Just *what* do they feed them?

I'm guessing you are asking what we think of India politically. Here's what I think: India is a rapidly rising political and economic power that has lifted 300 million out of poverty in the past decade. They are ideaologically the closest to the US in the region, so it is best that the US engages India in a dialogue. We need them at the negotiating table.
First, China. China has been a big factor to peace recently, most notably in the North Korea crisis. But it is not a US ally. Furthermore, China is starting to assert itself in international affairs, such as preventing a solution to the Darfur conflict. India and China have just signed a border treaty, but that doesn't mean that India has reasons to keep China in check. The US should provide defensive aid. I'd say that we should give them at least the quality of weapons that the German military gets from the US.
Secondly, there is the Middle East. As India's oil apetite grows, they are more interested in the source closest to home, giving India a growing influence in the region. The two countries also have a vested interest in stemming terrorism in the region. The two nations working in the region together would be unstoppable.

It was officially banned.


Tell that to the untouchables who are still diving into the sewage to this day

I agree with the Miss India statement. I mean, those Indian girls, mine, mine, mine. Just *what* do they feed them?
Hot hot masala.

As an Indian-Canadian Muslim


I love you.

I love you.
:fluffle:

I don't hate India...

And neither do the Chinese. But that's about it.

Of course, I can see why alot of people do.

Most of the muslim world because the Pakistanis are too liberal(and they don't pray five times a day :O!).

The Bangladeshis because the Pakistanis killed 3 million of their rebels.
The Afghanis because the Pakistanis supported the Taliban.
The Indians because the Indians hate the Pakistanis(they really don't have a good reason.)
The Americans because since Pakistan is muslim, it is obviously evil. (Oh, and maybe because Pakistan is one of Chinas few loyal allies might be a factor too).

I think the Iranians may like them a bit. After all A.Q. Khan gave them a few nuclear secrets...And Pakistan was the first Islamic Republic.
The Europeans hate Pakistan because it's Americas ally.
The Moldovans hate Pakistan because...well, they just do!


And the list goes on and on.

To tell the truth, though, Pakistan isn't a bad country. I lived there for years. The people are nice, they have great food, great music, great climates(Are you sick of the cold? Go to the southern deserts. Sick of the heat? Go to the mountains in the north, maybe see K2. Want to go surfing? Go to Balochistan. Want to go somewhere warm but not too warm? Go to Punjab. Want to go a beautiful city that isn't too crowded, has good shopping, good hotels, and has a nice climate? Go to Islamabad.), and it is a beautiful country. It isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

The government, however, is a weeee bit wack.

if the great powers of the world continue to ignore the east one day the east is going to be big enough and strong enough to ignore the west.....i cant wait :D .
china and india are on the way up. within 100 years...they (especially china) will be the super powers. ignoring india in its infancy as a super power is glaobal suicide, not more so than threatening it....as for china....piss them off and in 80 years Boom no more NY or london

Yeo you are right but hopefully there will be smarter then west and find out a worldorder there evrybody is included. But if you read Robter B. Marks book The Origin of the modern world, you can see that the indian ocean was the biggest and most important tradingplace and domintade by muslims chinese and indians. There the reason west could take it over and also the entire wolrtrade starting in the 16 th was because of stolen silver from soutamerica, intriducing violent trade in indian ocean (a bit like the vikings in europe) and that had easy acess to coal that lead to industralization.

The caste system was made basically non-existant in the 1950's.

Only radical hindu's want it back(and those are the same people who want to expell all the muslims, sikhs, and buddhists from India. Otherwise known as the BJP.)


The caste system is certainly not non-existant.. In the society and community it is very real

-= Im a curry chick btw.. =-

That is a naive attitude toward things. THe US decided in the 1860s that all Americans should be treated as equal citizens in this nation, but racial prejudice in this country was still strong for more than a century. Just because India's bureacracy bans caste doesn't mean people will suddenly stop respecting age old traditions. There's still open discrimination at all ranks of society. The affirmative action program in India for untouchables provokes great conflict... there are still violent Brahmin riots against affirmative action. In the US you won't see white people rioting over AA for blacks, but in India these thousand-year old discriminatory and racist traditions seem far more entrenched and respected than any racism seen in other countries.

Such success stories are rare, and you'd much more often hear about a successful low caste person getting attacked by higher caste people in order to "put him in his place." Even in the aid effort for last year's tsunami, there was widespread discrimination against untouchables and lower caste people. The Indian government tries to hide these things, and that is why India has always objected to any UN initiative to address caste discrimination. In other parts of the world people who are opposed to interracial marriage are generally seen as ignorant apes, but in India inter-caste marriage is still taboo.


That is not the whole story. Manmohan Singh is the current Prime Minister of INdia only because the rightfully elected Prime Minister, Sonia Gandhi, was born a Catholic. The hardline BJP Hindu nationalists objected to her ethnic background so Congress Party pulled Gandhi down even though she was the leader of the party, and Singh was put in place as a compromise. Nationalism and xenophobia still heavily influences Indian politics. Besides, Sikhs are respected by all faiths nowadays, partially because they are prone to effective and violent uprising against any oppressors so everyone leaves them alone. They aren't very persecuted in modern India.


Regardless of the hindu-muslim relations, caste is alive and well in India. Muslims in the India subcontinent are influenced by Hindus and have castes too. Untouchables continue to be treated like crap, and that is why every year there are hundreds of thousands of untouchables who mass convert to Buddhism or Christianity in order to protest against the caste system.

Just some anecdotes here, we have some Indian friends from India, amd my family is South African Indian, and we find that many of them are preoccupied with money and class. I think in a way that's the new caste system. Also we tend to be almost looked down upon because we're descended from manual labourers... Of course, we also have Indian friends who aren't like that at all...

Just wondering, as we are talking on the caste-system in india, whether the words ghetto, brother, whiteman, make any sense at our end.
Also, as you mention muslims being influenced by the hindus, and adopting a caste system, why do we forget that those muslims are essentially hindu converts, who left the religion, but not their inherited castes.