NationStates Jolt Archive

I think that using HIV as an example of a retrovirus is a bad one. From what i read, you're saying that eventually the HIV virus will change how the human is? because right now all it's doing is kililng people.

Any retroviral insertion changes the genetic code of the host organism by definition... but if you're asking if I think HIV will act as some kind of evolutionary catalyst... no, not really. The point is not that the retrovirus changes the code... the point is that WHEN it changes the code in the germline it does so in very specific ways which can leave identifiable, heritable markers in the genome which can be detected in future generations.

and if most of your "facts" and "sources" came from talkorigins.org, i can send you to other biased websites that prove creationism.

Well, talk.origins is the collected contributions of quite a few PhD biologists, geneticists, geologists, etc... so yes, I suppose they are "biased" in that they strongly prefer actual science in a scientific discussion.

such as here (http://www.creationevidence.org/cemframes.html) and here (http://www.drdino.com:8080/). (i'll admit, i didn't actually read these websites, they're just on a guys website i know who is a consipiracy theorist religious nut, so if they're wrong sue him not me ;))

I notice the guy's second link is to Kent Hovind's page. Dr. Dino is quite a colorful character. I think it might be prudent to know who it is you're referencing to counter the findings of basically the entire scientific community.

He maintains he has a $250,000 reward for evidence proving evolution when he doesn't know what evolution is (to claim the prize you have to do ridiculous things like prove the only possible way the entire universe could have formed was through the Big Bang). Whether someone has fulfilled all his ridiculous criteria is to be judged by a committee of judges which he refuses to name. Analysis of his finances indicates there's no chance he actually possesses $250,000 dollars, to which he responds that an unidentified "rich friend" has the money... honest. (cute huh?). But maintaining his absurd claim that he has this challenge outstanding lets him wave it around and declare "Aha! Those pathetic evolutionists can't collect! I win!". And people actually keep falling for it.

He claims to possess a doctorate in education from an institution called Patriot University. Curiously, when you go to the homepage of "Patriot University" (They recently changed their name to "Patiot Bible University") they will provide you with many peices of information... but a campus address is not one of the ones you will find prominently displayed. This is probably because not too long ago someone went and took a picture of their "campus" and posted it online. It was a house in a suburban neighbourhood. A duplex, if I recall correctly. After that they moved... to a church in Alamosa. A little digging though can turn up their current address on their application form if you download it, they need an address for you to mail the form (and cheque) to after all.

http://www.patriotuniversity.com/PDFdocs/mailapplication.pdf

1135 French Street, Del Norte, CO, 85132.

Just a bit more digging and we discover that they moved there this year... it used to be a medical clinic:

http://www.patriotuniversity.com/studentnews.htm

Oh look... the Patriot University offices were closed an entire 10 days to make the move. Impressive timespan for relocating an entire university, wouldn't you say? Maybe it's just because they have so much practice picking up and relocating.

Another conspicuously absent bit of information is a list of the faculty. If you should probe a little further you discover what it is that you need to go through in order to earn a degree from this fine institute of higher education. I especially love thier "What are our course like" page:

http://www.patriotuniversity.com/coursesample.htm

Many of our courses consist of a textbook and a corresponding workbook. Some textbooks are published by Patriot Bible University and some are published elsewhere and provided to you by us.

Some courses use audio taped messages with a corresponding workbook.

The workbooks provide questions that demonstrate you have read the material and have mastered the content. The questions may be true/false, multiple choice, or fill-in-the-blank. Some short essay questions may also be used.

Wow... you may be required to do some short essay questions before you can put the "Dr." in front of your name. Sounds rigorous.

That page may be second only to this one laying out how the whole process works:

http://www.patriotuniversity.com/financial.htm

It's priceless...

If the point hasn't been communicated yet... Patriot University is a sham. A Diploma Mill. You send them a cheque and a bit of "homework" and they send you a doctorate degree. People do not go to Patriot University to learn, people go to Patriot university to bypass all the fuss and bother of actually earning a degree. Such an act cheapens and denigrates hard working students everywhere who actually put the work in to earn their credentials.

I could go on about the total lack of integrity of Mr. Hovind (the details about his history of tax evasion are particularly entertaining) but I don't think it's really necessary.

The point is that this guy isn't just wrong... he's a completely discreditted lying crackpot and STILL barely a week goes by when I don't see him as a primary citation for anti-evolutionist claims. Put forward as if he actually had anything resembling credibility.

And then people wonder why creationism doesn't get taken seriously. :rolleyes:

Sorry for the length of that rant... but that guy really ticks me off. You have no idea how many people he deceives on a constant basis with his garbage and making a living off them getting them to buy his material in the process.

heh, as i said, i pulled that off a conspiracy theorist religious nut. That doesn't surprise me. People in this world are always being duped and i don't think anything will ever change that.

But isn't the point of evolution is to bring a species to betterment?

What i mean by that is to have the species evolve into something that helps them survive. In that instance, the part of the species that doesn't evolve with the rest of it dies off, and therefore we get a new species. (i may be oversimplifying things, but that's how i understand evolution) If that's the case, how come chimps are still around? And if it's not the case, perhaps you can enlighten me a little bit.

heh, as i said, i pulled that off a conspiracy theorist religious nut. That doesn't surprise me. People in this world are always being duped and i don't think anything will ever change that.

But isn't the point of evolution is to bring a species to betterment?

What i mean by that is to have the species evolve into something that helps them survive. In that instance, the part of the species that doesn't evolve with the rest of it dies off, and therefore we get a new species. (i may be oversimplifying things, but that's how i understand evolution) If that's the case, how come chimps are still around? And if it's not the case, perhaps you can enlighten me a little bit.

Evolutionary theory doesnt say we evoleved from chimps. If you really want to read up on it, go to talkorigins or buy a biology textbook then get back to us.

Evolutionary theory doesnt say we evoleved from chimps. If you really want to read up on it, go to talkorigins or buy a biology textbook then get back to us.

meh, i don't like to read textbooks, quite boring. talkorigins just seems to be too much of a compilation to go through. was hoping for a summary. O well, i'm not so interested in it that i want to waste hours on the study. Have fun.

heh, as i said, i pulled that off a conspiracy theorist religious nut. That doesn't surprise me. People in this world are always being duped and i don't think anything will ever change that.

But isn't the point of evolution is to bring a species to betterment?

Nope.

There is no "point" of evolution, it's a statistical process... but the effect of evolution is that whatever organisms within the population experience more success at reproduction (and that's it) will have their genes be more significantly represented in the following generation. If there is some genetic influence on why they are successful that trend will continue until certain genetic traits come to dominate the entire population.

Every once in a while entirely new genetic sequences will be introduced to any given population through mutation... and they will either be harmful, neutral, or confer some benefit that causes the one posessing them to statistically out-reproduce his contemporaries and THOSE genes will eventually come to spread throughout the population in subsequent generations.

And this process never stops. It's happening right now in every species on the planet.

What i mean by that is to have the species evolve into something that helps them survive. In that instance, the part of the species that doesn't evolve with the rest of it dies off, and therefore we get a new species. (i may be oversimplifying things, but that's how i understand evolution) If that's the case, how come chimps are still around? And if it's not the case, perhaps you can enlighten me a little bit.

Let's say we go back in time about 6 million years. Somewhere in Africa there's a species of primate. Now we fast forward...

The population of this species grows. It diversifies. It spreads. It splits into different groups that migrate to new regions.

In one of those groups a member of the group experiences a significant genetic mutation that confers an advantage on it. It thrives, it survives, it has lots of little kids (more than most other members) it passes it's genes onto. So in the next generation of this group there is a higher percentage of the group that possesses this new gene. THEY thrive, survive a long time, have lots of little kids (more than most other members of the group) which they pass the genes on to. In the generation after that there is now an even higher percentage of the population posessing the new genes.

This process continues... until eventually a generation comes along where there are no kids who don't have the new genes. In that group.

But you see.. that group migrated away from the other group(s) before ths happened. They don't mate with each other. Genetic differences that have worked their way into this group don't get spread to the other group(s). And at the same time this same process is happening in the other group(s)... only since mutations are random they're having different new genetic sequences being introduced to their gene pools... with the best of those sequences being selected for and spread to following generations.

And in one group after about 6 million year of this the most beneficial mutations that happpened to occur added up to produce: chimpanzees.

In another group the beneficial mutations that happened to occur added up to produce: homo sapiens.

Quite some time before this the differences between the two groups had added up to the point where even if they did move back into the same region as each other they simply wouldn't reproduce with each other, so the seperation process is irreversible at that point.

This is referred to as allopatric speciation.