NationStates Jolt Archive

In a discussion on NS many months ago I quoted something from the Koran (I don't remember exactly what), and was told that one couldn't understand what some suras actually mean unless one reads them in Arabic. Now most Muslims don't speak Arabic. Does that mean they can never understand the Koran, and therefore are participating in "fake" Islam?

Bump

er... I was under the impression that all Muslims are pretty much required to have knowledge of the old form of Arabic that the Koran is written in. I'm not a Muslim of course, so I'm not entirely sure about that one.

Bumping again

Many of the Muslims I know don't understand Arabic, but can read the script (from Urdu, etc.), and they read the original Arabic Qu'ran, but don't understand it (they are only of school age, like me; I can't speak for adults). I always thought that it was reading the Qu'ran, rather than understanding it which was a requirement of Islam, and therefore I guess it isn't 'fake'.

Many of the Muslims I know don't understand Arabic, but can read the script (from Urdu, etc.), and they read the original Arabic Qu'ran, but don't understand it (they are only of school age, like me; I can't speak for adults). I always thought that it was reading the Qu'ran, rather than understanding it which was a requirement of Islam, and therefore I guess it isn't 'fake'.
Thanks for responding. Please don't feel like I'm insulting your faith. I'm just curious as to how one can beleive in a religion when he can't fully understand the scriptures it's contained in.

Muslims are required to know pretty much only the most basic things in Arabic (such as the Shahadah and the prayers). Knowing this alone does not, however, stop them from being good Muslims.

Many Arabs, after all, were and still are illiterate, so even they cannot read the Koran. Reading the Koran is not a requisite part of being Muslim; what is most important is to know and follow the central tenets of the faith and above all submit unquestioningly to God. One of the last things that old and contemporary Muslim leaders want is a blind adherence to Islam (this applies at least to the non-fundamentalist intellectuals; I'm not so sure on the fundamentalists).

Yes, it's unfortunate if you cannot read Arabic and understand your religion to its utmost, but that does not make it fake Islam.

<Edit> As for Koranic reading, I've always taken that to be more of an art form than anything else. The Koran, according to Muslims, has such poetic beauty to it that when it is intoned it is supremely pleasant. I don't think it actually has anything to do with practicing Islam itself. </Edit>

Thanks for responding. Please don't feel like I'm insulting your faith.

I'm not a Muslim, (I'm an atheist) I just go to a school where 85% or so of the people in it are, so I know quite alot about Islam.

I'm just curious as to how one can beleive in a religion when he can't fully understand the scriptures it's contained in.

I'm curious too, although I haven't asked any of my friends about it yet.

I'm just curious as to how one can beleive in a religion when he can't fully understand the scriptures it's contained in.
Ummm something like Christians with umpteen various versions of the Bible, and a plethora of divergent theology based on umpteen various "Christian" churches.

The way I see it, there is but one God and ten "basic" rules.

Ummm something like Christians with umpteen various versions of the Bible, and a plethora of divergent theology based on umpteen various "Christian" churches.

The way I see it, there is but one God and ten "basic" rules.
Yeah, but they don't say the bible can only be understood in it's original language(s). The translations are there for any beleiver or critic to study, and are presumed to be fairly accurate.

until fairly recently, the catholic church did Mass in Latin, and most Catholics don't speak Latin, probably a smaller portion than Arabic speaking Muslims

until fairly recently, the catholic church did Mass in Latin, and most Catholics don't speak Latin, probably a smaller portion than Arabic speaking Muslims
Yeah. Same situation.

free mumia

fry mumia
There, that's better.

free mumia
i mean scott peterson

i mean scott peterson
Let's fry him too. Fuck it. Let's kill all the killers.
I hate the hater, I rape the raper - Marilyn Manson

There are alot of translations, y'know. Only the Qu'rans in the Mosque need to be in Arabic, I presume. In your house, you could have a Qu'ran in Klingon if you wanted.

There are alot of translations, y'know. Only the Qu'rans in the Mosque need to be in Arabic, I presume. In your house, you could have a Qu'ran in Klingon if you wanted.
Right, but in a debate on NS I quoted part of the koran and the guy who I was arguing with said my interpretation was wrong and the koran could only be understood in Arabic. That's what brought on the question.

don't hate the playa, hate the game - IMx

marilyn manson fails it

free tibet

Right, but in a debate on NS I quoted part of the koran and the guy who I was arguing with said my interpretation was wrong and the koran could only be understood in Arabic. That's what brought on the question.

Its a poetic thing, y'know? The words are translated, but (as with all translated works) the original version is always better. You get more of a feel for it if it is in Arabic.

don't hate the playa, hate the game - IMx

marilyn manson fails it

free tibet
Nuke Tibet. They do nothing but cause problems for the poor, peace-loving Chinese.

Nuke Tibet. They do nothing but cause problems for the poor, peace-loving Chinese.
agreed

holla!

Nuke Tibet. They do nothing but cause problems for the poor, peace-loving Chinese.

?

I think a bunch of bald, old monks are hardly a threat to the "peace-loving"(read:people-who-execute-the-most-people-a-year) chinese.

Unless by chinese you mean the Taiwanese.

Its a poetic thing, y'know? The words are translated, but (as with all translated works) the original version is always better. You get more of a feel for it if it is in Arabic.
I don't get it. I was hoping I would, but I don't.

?

I think a bunch of bald, old monks are hardly a threat to the "peace-loving"(read:people-who-execute-the-most-people-a-year) chinese.

Unless by chinese you mean the Taiwanese.
I'd love to turn the Dali Lama over to the Chinese government for re-education. Tibet was Chinese in the past, and shall be Chinese forever more.

tibet sucks

http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

china sucks too

Translation are a wonderful thing.

I really need to find a Koran in Klingon...

I'd love to turn the Dali Lama over to the Chinese government for re-education. Tibet was Chinese in the past, and shall be Chinese forever more.

Sorry, Tibet was Tibetan :p.

Sorry, Tibet was Tibetan :p.
I was just kidding. I have absolutely no interest in Tibet.

Qur'an is understood in the heart, not in the language.

I don't get it. I was hoping I would, but I don't.
reading english translations of latin, greek, or other poetry doesnt have the same feeling that it does when you read it in the original language. Particularly if it is supposed to rhyme

reading english translations of latin, greek, or other poetry doesnt have the same feeling that it does when you read it in the original language. Particularly if it is supposed to rhyme
I was going for meaning more than feeling.

As a Muslim I find it a problem that while I can read and write in Arabic I don't really understand anything I read because my vocabulary is horrible. So its problematic for me because I find it pointless to read English versions of the Quran since I know that the only way to escape another person's interpretation is to read the Quran in Arabic myself so that I can formulate my own interpretation. So, I don't know if you would call what I follow fake because I have not read the Quran yet, but I have been to Islamic school when I was younger and I did learn the basics of Islam and thats really what I follow.

Arabic words have so many faces that it's difficult to express their full meaning in one English word in a translation. The meaning can be twisted if English translations of Quran are quoted out of context... hope that helps?

I have to say that recently studying Islam in the past month, I have found that with the way that the concept was presented to me is that Arabic is the holy language of Islam for it was how Mohammed origonally wrote the Kor'an when it was given to him by the angel Gabriel. What has been impressed upon me is that Arabic is a sacred language, holding more truths to the Kor'an than if it were translated. On one side of the spectrum I know Moslems who find the Kor'an in any language nice to have and others who find it only acceptable in Arabic only. Many Molsems also believe that the Bible in Jewish and Christian beliefs was corrupted as it got translated, so that might be what has decided a bit of why the Kor'an is so sacred in Arabic because it can't be disputed as much in all the same language. Sorry if this is rude and overpowering.

And, to top it all off, our resident Awesomeman (aka Dr. Seyyed Hossein Nasr) has mentioned Hadith (sayings of the Prophet) or theological text or something relevant about there being seven--not six, nor eight--layers of meaning for everything in the Koran. In order to understand these levels of meaning, you have to be quite spiritual and, I assume, have the uncorrupted Arabic Koran.

In a discussion on NS many months ago I quoted something from the Koran (I don't remember exactly what), and was told that one couldn't understand what some suras actually mean unless one reads them in Arabic. Now most Muslims don't speak Arabic. Does that mean they can never understand the Koran, and therefore are participating in "fake" Islam?


most muzlims dont speak arabic?............... :p :p :p :p :p

most muzlims dont speak arabic?............... :p :p :p :p :p
That's right. Between Indonesia, the Central Asian nations, Sub Saharan African muslims, Indian Muslims, and the minorities in China, USA, Philipines, and Europe they outnumber the Arab muslims and most don't know Arabic from Pig Latin.

I've read the Qur'an in Arabic even though I don't know Arabic. Although I do know most of the meanings of the different parts of the Qur'an. I don't have the in-depth knowledge on the Qur'an however. My teacher is Arabic and can speak Urdu so he translates a lot for me.

I've read the Qur'an in Arabic even though I don't know Arabic. Although I do know most of the meanings of the different parts of the Qur'an. I don't have the in-depth knowledge on the Qur'an however. My teacher is Arabic and can speak Urdu so he translates a lot for me.
How do you know he's not purposely teaching you wrong, you know, as a joke? :D

How do you know he's not purposely teaching you wrong, you know, as a joke? :D
Why would he do that? :confused:

That's right. Between Indonesia, the Central Asian nations, Sub Saharan African muslims, Indian Muslims, and the minorities in China, USA, Philipines, and Europe they outnumber the Arab muslims and most don't know Arabic from Pig Latin.



you are sure on this?.......i mean.... :p ...o.k...ill take your word for it

Why would he do that? :confused:
Because I could see myself doing it. I would think it's funny. Maybe his sense of humor is less off beat.

you are sure on this?.......i mean.... :p ...o.k...ill take your word for it
I'm not a Muslim, but I read alot about radical Islam and Islamofascist terrorism. You know, know your enemy. In the process you can't help but learn a little about normal Islam and ordinary muslims.

That's right. Between Indonesia, the Central Asian nations, Sub Saharan African muslims, Indian Muslims, and the minorities in China, USA, Philipines, and Europe they outnumber the Arab muslims and most don't know Arabic from Pig Latin.

Indian sub-continet Muslims. You left out Pakistan and Bangladesh(which both have more than 130,000,000 Muslims).

Sorry. I've just lived there, so it's kinda an instinct to point out when they are forgotten.

Indian sub-continet Muslims. You left out Pakistan and Bangladesh(which both have more than 130,000,000 Muslims).

Sorry. I've just lived there, so it's kinda an instinct to point out when they are forgotten.
Dude, Pakistan isn't even a real country. It's supposed to be part of India. I don't know who's bright Idea it was to split the two, but look at all the trouble it's causing. It's a very likely place for a nuclear war to start.

Dude, Pakistan isn't even a real country. It's supposed to be part of India. I don't know who's bright Idea it was to split the two, but look at all the trouble it's causing. It's a very likely place for a nuclear war to start.

...

So you are saying that America isn't a real country because the British wanted it to be part of their colonial empire along with Canada? Look at all the trouble we have made, and the nuclear wars we have almost started!

...

So you are saying that America isn't a real country because the British wanted it to be part of their colonial empire along with Canada? Look at all the trouble we have made, and the nuclear wars we have almost started!
Historically Pakistan was part of India. The US was property of various native tribes, not England. It's a different situation.

Historically Pakistan was part of India. The US was property of various native tribes, not England. It's a different situation.

Actually, Pakistan has historically been part of god knows how many countries. It was originally its own empire(see: Harrapan Civilization), then greater India, then the Persians counquered all of it up to the Indus, then the Greeks, then the Persians again, then the Muslims, then the Moguls, then the British,and then it was free again. The only time it was part of a greater "India" was when it was part of the British Empire and part of the Indian Empire.

That's not much different than the U.S., if you think about it.

Besides, Indian and Pakistani culture are different. They are similar, but not the same. Urdu is similar to Hindi(like Spanish and Italian or Spanish and Portugese), but not the same. The music (Qawwali) is listened too in North-west India as well as Pakistan, but nowhere else.

I think that Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh shouldn't come together per-se, but a South-Asian alliance would be nice.

If only those damned Indians had listened to the people of Kashmir and done what the U.N. told them too(which was that the Indians would hold a plebescite(sp?) in Kashmir and if the Kashmiris wanted to join Pakistan, they would).

Dude, Pakistan isn't even a real country. It's supposed to be part of India. I don't know who's bright Idea it was to split the two, but look at all the trouble it's causing. It's a very likely place for a nuclear war to start.
During the British rule of India, Ghandi protested for an independant India. At the same time, Mohammad Ali Jinnah reorganized the Muslim League and protested for a seperate Muslim state of Pakistan. The British administration handed over sovereignty to India and Pakistan. Both countries got seperate independence in 1947.

In between the two countries right now, I think there are around 250 Muslims.

During the British rule of India, Ghandi protested for an independant India. At the same time, Mohammad Ali Jinnah reorganized the Muslim League and protested for a seperate Muslim state of Pakistan. The British administration handed over sovereignty to India and Pakistan. Both countries got seperate independence in 1947.

In between the two countries right now, I think there are around 250 Muslims.
Is that 250 million? I find it very hard to beleive that there are only 250 of them.

If only those damned Indians had listened to the people of Kashmir and done what the U.N. told them too(which was that the Indians would hold a plebescite(sp?) in Kashmir and if the Kashmiris wanted to join Pakistan, they would).
India rocks!

I don't speak Hindi however, Urdu. Urdu was formed through trade. It's a mixed up language of Hindi (mostly), English, Greek, Arabic, and a few other languages.

EDIT: French too.

Actually, Pakistan has historically been part of god knows how many countries. It was originally its own empire(see: Harrapan Civilization), then greater India, then the Persians counquered all of it up to the Indus, then the Greeks, then the Persians again, then the Muslims, then the Moguls, then the British,and then it was free again. The only time it was part of a greater "India" was when it was part of the British Empire and part of the Indian Empire.

That's not much different than the U.S., if you think about it.

Besides, Indian and Pakistani culture are different. They are similar, but not the same. Urdu is similar to Hindi(like Spanish and Italian or Spanish and Portugese), but not the same. The music (Qawwali) is listened too in North-west India as well as Pakistan, but nowhere else.
India does not have one culture. Less than half of the Indian population speaks Hindi. Easterners speak Bengali, southerners speak Tamil, Punjabis speak Punjabi, etc. etc. There are hundreds of cultures in India. it would not be too unprecedented to see Urdu added as a culture in India since the country is already so diverse anyways.

Is that 250 million? I find it very hard to beleive that there are only 250 of them.
Just reconfirmed it, there should be around 300 million.

most muzlims dont speak arabic?............... :p :p :p :p :p

Less than 15% of the world's Muslims are Arabs.

Less than 15% of the world's Muslims are Arabs.
Yeah, but he was asking about muzlims.

Yeah, but he was asking about muzlims.
http://www.the-gateway.net/fun/owned-pigeon.jpg

Hooray, we've managed to get a thread about Islam almost to page 5 without some moron coming in and saying "Muslims are evil and deserve to die!"
Yay.

Hooray, we've managed to get a thread about Islam almost to page 5 without some moron coming in and saying "Muslims are evil and deserve to die!"
Yay.
I haven't been around long enough to see one of those threads :p

Less than 15% of the world's Muslims are Arabs.
You dont have to be an Arab to speak Arabic, however, Arabic is spoken in Iran and Pakistan, as well as a lot of Northern Africa, it is the worlds 5th most spoken language, with 181 million first language speakers, the only bigger ones are Mandarin Chinese, English, Spanish, and Hindi. Hindi is only 182 million first language speakers, so that could just be a matter of rounding

Yeah, but he was asking about muzlims.

I figured that was just the standard American putting the Z instead of S. Is there some cult out there I'm unaware of?

I figured that was just the standard American putting the Z instead of S. Is there some cult out there I'm unaware of?
If there isn't I'm starting one.

If there isn't I'm starting one.

Schweet ... can I join?

Schweet ... can I join?
Only if you abide by the divine commandment to misspell everything.

Only if you abide by the divine commandment to misspell everything.

taht izn't e porblem

i dont think i would call it a fake islam, however you do really have to wonder that if it cannot be read yourself how can you be sure that what you know is true? After all there are all types of religous fanatics in ALL types of religion that interpret things there way and then go forward teaching there rendition of what is "truth". I dont think i would use the term fake though, perhaps misguided?

I have heard Christian peoples opinions differ on various subjects. Who is right? in my interpretation of these biblical areas sometimes neither of them are. However i can read this for myself.

The original post here is surely thought provoking though.... good one.

India does not have one culture. Less than half of the Indian population speaks Hindi. Easterners speak Bengali, southerners speak Tamil, Punjabis speak Punjabi, etc. etc. There are hundreds of cultures in India. it would not be too unprecedented to see Urdu added as a culture in India since the country is already so diverse anyways.

I know that.

It's also a nationalistic thing.Pakistanis at least have been raised from birth hearing "We are better than India!" and "Pakistan forever!" The only way Pakistan will join India now is if India nukes all the major cities and practically enslaves Pakistan.