NationStates Jolt Archive

Becaus of the lack of security on the Mexican border some citizens have taken it upon themselves to do the patrolling. There is now 500 'cowboys' patrolling a 23 mile long stretch of the Arizona Mexico border. Many of them came with their rifles and carried pistols along the border. Yahoo News Story (http://rds.yahoo.com/S=53720272/K=minutemen/v=2/SID=e/l=NSR/R=3/SIG=12nciqcfs/EXP=1112985643/*-http%3A//www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/04/06/national/main686051.shtml)

A Central American gang that has thousands of members in America who have crossed the border illegally have vowed to "teach the minutemen a lesson".

Well, I hope the Central American Gang gets slaughtered and the minutemen don't accidentally shoot any civilians.

Cool, gangwar in arizona.

I can see it now:

Minuteman and the thunderdome!

What do you guys think about this vigilante action?

While I certainly hope someone is keeping a sharp eye so that the minutemen don't become vigilantes, I also do worry that the coyotes trafficking people across the border are going to escalate things to violence. So far, even though I am deeply suspicious of the minutemen, it seems they have been acting fairly...but frankly, the wider issue of human trafficking is still not being dealt with effectively. I'm not sure how you COULD deal with it though.

That being said, we wouldn't have such a trafficking problem if all immigration were legal:).

Cool, gangwar in arizona.
Who in their right effing mind would fight over turf in Arizona?!

Obviously it's a revenge thing, but still - there are a LOT better places to go border-hopping than Arizona.

Also, if anyone gets hurt or killed by these minutemen, I sincerely hope that the minutemen responsible are prosecuted for it even though the victims are not citizens of the US.

Maybe the national guard should be mobilized to patrol the border so the minutemen can go home.

Also, if anyone gets hurt or killed by these minutemen, I sincerely hope that the minutemen responsible are prosecuted for it even though the victims are not citizens of the US.

Shouldn't you be more concerned about the central american gang who has "vowed to teach them a lesson"?

I mean really now.

What do you guys think about this vigilante action?
two of my best friend are there , this minute. the man who formed the minutemanproject lives a town away , and is respected member of the community.
i think its great! i support the project, my friends, and hope that the hype stops. the minute men are there to simply alert the understaffed border patrol as to when they see illegal immigration in process. they are NOT apprehending the criminals, or arresting, or shooting anyone. they attempting to call attention to the border issues , and get the federal goverments attention.
i think why everyone is mixed up, is because in Arizona, it is legal to carry an unconcealed weapon, so many of them are armed. but wouldnt you be?

I, for one, am glad to see people take control of things down there! Some call them vigilantes, I call them that militia that the second amendment mentions. Does anybody know the % of Americans that favor strengthening our borders? I'm inclined to say its over %50, and if that is the case, its our "democratic" right to uphold the will of the people, if our government is too afraid of offending their "migrant" voters. GO MINUTEMEN!!!!!!! If I can get some time off, I may just go join them!

Shouldn't you be more concerned about the central american gang who has "vowed to teach them a lesson"?

I mean really now.No, I am MORE worried about the innocents who are likely to get inbetween the two armed groups. The minutemen are escalating an already hostile situation (as are the coyotes), but it's going to be the people being trafficked, or the ones crossing on their own that are going to suffer most.

Frankly, the idea of a bunch of armed civilians 'policing' a border scares me. Just as a bunch of armed civilians 'policing' ANYTHING would scare me. They haven't the training, the oversight or the mandate to do any such thing.

Also, if anyone gets hurt or killed by these minutemen, I sincerely hope that the minutemen responsible are prosecuted for it even though the victims are not citizens of the US.
read my prior post, please. the only people getting hurt and killed in immigration is the illegals themselves. that desert can get 128 degrees, and yet they are crossing with children, pregnant women, and the elderly. lets crack down on the coyotes (smugglers) who promise these people streets of gold for $1500 american dollars, and often leave them to die in the desert.

two of my best friend are there , this minute. the man who formed the minutemanproject lives a town away , and is respected member of the community.
i think its great! i support the project, my friends, and hope that the hype stops. the minute men are there to simply alert the understaffed border patrol as to when they see illegal immigration in process. they are NOT apprehending the criminals, or arresting, or shooting anyone. they attempting to call attention to the border issues , and get the federal goverments attention.
i think why everyone is mixed up, is because in Arizona, it is legal to carry an unconcealed weapon, so many of them are armed. but wouldnt you be?
Stepping back again, like I said, everything I've heard about the group so far has been pretty positive...more like volunteer park rangers or firefighters than vigilantes, and I hope it stays that way. I also hope they do not become targets of violence for what they are doing.

No, I am MORE worried about the innocents who are likely to get inbetween the two armed groups. The minutemen are escalating an already hostile situation (as are the coyotes), but it's going to be the people being trafficked, or the ones crossing on their own that are going to suffer most.

Frankly, the idea of a bunch of armed civilians 'policing' a border scares me. Just as a bunch of armed civilians 'policing' ANYTHING would scare me. They haven't the training, the oversight or the mandate to do any such thing.
*ahem* not policing. that would give one the powers of apprehension. they are just being extra ears and eyes.

Stepping back again, like I said, everything I've heard about the group so far has been pretty positive...more like volunteer park rangers or firefighters than vigilantes, and I hope it stays that way. I also hope they do not become targets of violence for what they are doing.
i think it will stay that way. actually,, i am hoping. i dont want steve or chris getting into trouble! :)

read my prior post, please. Done and replied to.

lets crack down on the coyotes (smugglers) who promise these people streets of gold for $1500 american dollars, and often leave them to die in the desert.
I agree...the problem is how? Trafficking is a HUGE problem, not just of Mexican or Central American illegals, but also of Eastern Europeans, Chinese and so on. I'm not sure how it can be dealt with effectively, since so many different factors are in place...

I believe the coyotes are a much bigger threat than illegal immigration itself, but all too often, it is the illegals that get the shit end, first from the coyotes, then from the people who resent them in their country. :(

Frankly, the idea of a bunch of armed civilians 'policing' a border scares me. Just as a bunch of armed civilians 'policing' ANYTHING would scare me. They haven't the training, the oversight or the mandate to do any such thing.

But you are fine with the concept of organized criminal gangs looking for revenge?

Honestly, say what you like about the minutemen, they can't possibly be as dangerous as the central american gang. (And by all accounts, they are honest citizens trying to help the govenrment, not armed vigilantes).

Maybe the national guard should be mobilized to patrol the border so the minutemen can go home.
right now, the national guard is on war alert, if you know what i mean. but the point in the project is to illustrate to the federal government that because they refuse to do anything about the situation, citizens will take action and do what they can to stop the influx. the organizers of the militia got tired of people in california, especially, sitting around and complaining, and not doing anything about it.

Who in their right effing mind would fight over turf in Arizona?!

Obviously it's a revenge thing, but still - there are a LOT better places to go border-hopping than Arizona.


Apparently 51% of the 1.1 million illegals sneaking across the Mexico American border come through the Arizona section. I'm not sure why this is but this is what CBS reported.

a little cut and paste here, for the "humanists of the forum" :)
At least 346 migrants from Mexico and Latin America died trying to cross the border during the government's 2003 fiscal year, which ended on Tuesday, the U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection said.

The main cause of death, with at least 139 cases, was dehydration or exposure in the Sonoran Desert in southern Arizona. It has become the main migration route since a border crackdown known as Operation Gatekeeper began eight years ago.

Others drowned in the Rio Grande River (called Rio Bravo in Mexico) that divides Texas and Mexico, or perished in car crashes in unsuccessful attempts at "border running," or trying to outrun border patrol agents on rural highways and freeways.

The death statistics do not include dozens who suffocate in boxcars or die in high-speed car chases in counties that are not located along the border -- like 19 who died in May in an airless tractor-trailer near Victoria, Texas.

Chavez said border agents succeeded in saving many lives. During 2003, they rescued more than 1,200 migrants, giving emergency medical treatment to many and transporting others to area hospitals, she said.

Illegal immigration is a serious problem in the southwest-hell, it's a serious problem nationwide, but the entry point is in the southwest.
Why is it a problem?

Let's say you have this migrant worker, and he's got a legit green-card. He's going to make a fair wage, and he's not going to be exploited, because he has legal protections and no cause to fear the authorities.

Now, take this Illegal migrant. He's got the same skillset, but no green-card. an unscrupulous bastard will take advantage of him, treat him like a f**king slave-and because he fears the authorities more than he does the abuse, the Illegal will take it. This lowers the $$$ value of the Legal worker's efforts, because there are a LOT of unscrupulous bastards who'll use illegals instead-because they're cheaper, and since they're here illegally, they won't report him to the authorities.

That's the first reason it's a serious problem-it devalues Legal labour.

Second reason it's a problem, is because a lot of Illegals come up to have a baby-and a person born in the U.S. is a Citizen. Most social services won't separate mommy from baby-so now, she's got coverage to stay in the U.S., and since she doesn't have marketable skills, or a strong grasp of the language, she gets a state-funded free ride, until the kid's eighteen...
This happens a LOT in the Southwestern states, and it IS a major problem.

Third Reason: Coyotes. Not the canine predator, but Human Predators, who take the money of people fleeing bad, bad, places in exchange for the promise to get them into the country. When I was living in El Paso, there was a truckload found every once in a while abandoned in the desert. Sometimes, there were live people inside, and sometimes there weren't (not as in "empty" but as in "Death by exposure/dehydration/bullets"). If you don't think this is a problem, you're a f**king Sadist or worse.
I'm sure some people-smugglers aren't banditos or bad people, but an awful lot of them are, and some of them are remarkably bad people-the kind of people who probably deserve to be staked out for the ants.

I'm a fairly nice person, most of hte time, I'll help a guy out if he asks and I can do it. But, there are limits. if you want to come to my house for dinner, you don't break in the kitchen window, or sneak in through the basement.
Same way, if you want to come to my country, I think you should ask first-it's simple manners. If you want to join my family, you ask, see? "Just showing up" by sneaking into the house is not how you do it. My ancestors had to come by Ellis Island, they waited a couple years to get in, it's only fair that people who want to be Americans, or come here to work, be ready to do the same.

Apparently 51% of the 1.1 million illegals sneaking across the Mexico American border come through the Arizona section. I'm not sure why this is but this is what CBS reported.
the sandiego border used to the busiest, but operation gatekeeper, started in 1994, put more agents on that section. they felt that the immigrations would slow down, if the only part that they could cross was in a much harsher climate (the sonoran desert at the arizona border)

That being said, we wouldn't have such a trafficking problem if all immigration were legal:).

You're right and if we legalized drunk driving, we wouldn't have to pull so many drunks off the highway. :rolleyes:

No, I am MORE worried about the innocents who are likely to get inbetween the two armed groups. The minutemen are escalating an already hostile situation (as are the coyotes), but it's going to be the people being trafficked, or the ones crossing on their own that are going to suffer most.

Frankly, the idea of a bunch of armed civilians 'policing' a border scares me. Just as a bunch of armed civilians 'policing' ANYTHING would scare me. They haven't the training, the oversight or the mandate to do any such thing.


The way I understood the story made it sound like a "neighborhood watch" type thing. The presense of the "minute-men" will hopefully reduce the illegal crossings. And if the increased number of eyes and ears help alert the proper officials, I have nothing against helping prevent illegal immigration.
I dont want to see this well-intended group being tarnished by a minority of gung-ho types that might be looking for trouble by taking matters into their own hands.
people have to understand the tremendous negative impact that illegal immigration has on these communities and the country as a whole.

Illegal immigration is a serious problem in the southwest-hell, it's a serious problem nationwide, but the entry point is in the southwest.
Why is it a problem?

Let's say you have this migrant worker, and he's got a legit green-card. He's going to make a fair wage, and he's not going to be exploited, because he has legal protections and no cause to fear the authorities.

Now, take this Illegal migrant. He's got the same skillset, but no green-card. an unscrupulous bastard will take advantage of him, treat him like a f**king slave-and because he fears the authorities more than he does the
*applaudes loudly*
thankyou. same point i made on two different threads in the last week, and got nailed for. everyones solution is- well just legalize it- and my response is, are you kidding? just let millions in, when our infrastructure cannot support them????
again- best post i have read in a long time.

*applaudes loudly*
thankyou. same point i made on two different threads in the last week, and got nailed for. everyones solution is- well just legalize it- and my response is, are you kidding? just let millions in, when our infrastructure cannot support them????
again- best post i have read in a long time.
But...but...all you need is love, the Beetles taught us that. :rolleyes:

a little cut and paste here, for the "humanists of the forum" :)
At least 346 migrants from Mexico and Latin America died trying to cross the border during the government's 2003 fiscal year, which ended on Tuesday, the U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection said.

The main cause of death, with at least 139 cases, was dehydration or exposure in the Sonoran Desert in southern Arizona. It has become the main migration route since a border crackdown known as Operation Gatekeeper began eight years ago.

Others drowned in the Rio Grande River (called Rio Bravo in Mexico) that divides Texas and Mexico, or perished in car crashes in unsuccessful attempts at "border running," or trying to outrun border patrol agents on rural highways and freeways.

The death statistics do not include dozens who suffocate in boxcars or die in high-speed car chases in counties that are not located along the border -- like 19 who died in May in an airless tractor-trailer near Victoria, Texas.

Chavez said border agents succeeded in saving many lives. During 2003, they rescued more than 1,200 migrants, giving emergency medical treatment to many and transporting others to area hospitals, she said.


The Mexicans that were found dead locked in the tractor trailer was absolutely disgusting-the bastard that smuggled them in pocketed their cash and abandoned them to save his own ass. People cant even begin to comprehend the horror of that many victims suffocating/cooking to death.
And we dont even know how many illegal immigrants from China die in the holds and ballast areas of ships every year. Out at sea, no one will find them and no one is going to be missing them. The whole situation sucks.

*shakes his head and slowly walks away mumbling something about "if the immigration laws we have in place now had been in place since the beginning, none of ya'll mofos would even be here to bitch about immigrants" and closes the door behind him*

But...but...all you need is love, the Beetles taught us that. :rolleyes:
i hate the beatles :)

and i love your eye rolling posts! but i get you- "just LOVE everyone!!" yeah right. if we just legalize everything, and love everyone- anarchy would happen in about 4.5 seconds. people do not think of the consequences of their "happy little actions".

Frankly it's laughable that a bunch of armed hicks are calling themselves minutemen. Ah yes, how heroic, just like defending the fledgling U.S against British oppression! except it's defending the US.... economy against... the oppressively dirt-poor Mexicans looking for work!

They aren't the same thing at all. And it isn't even defending the economy, or their jobs, or anything else.

As for the central americans going to "teach them a lesson..." please! Do you think not a single one of the so-called minutemen hasn't said something about teaching THEM a lesson? This is stupid macho posturing on both sides, for no real reason other than, mostly, xenophobia.

*shakes his head and slowly walks away mumbling something about "if the immigration laws we have in place now had been in place since the beginning, none of ya'll mofos would even be here to bitch about immigrants" and closes the door behind him*
hey you :) . things change. the country changes. and let me tell you, what happens if you go to bring one of those adorable children of yours to the emergency room with appendix trouble, or something, and you wait four hours, to your babies' detriment, because there are people in there getting seen for colds, and routine vaccinations? or you have drive a half hour away to the hospital, because the close one has closed its doors, having collapsed under the weight of supporting medical care for free? it happens here . alot. i think you may think differently, then.

Article on the Central American Gang (http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=minutemen+arizona+ms-13&page=1&offset=1&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dc2a1383599769f3b%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery% 3Dminutemen%2Barizona%2Bms-13%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.washtimes.com%252Fnational%252F20050328-125306-7868r.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPToolbarNS%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.washtimes.com%2Fnational%2F20050328-125306-7868r.htm)

Check out this article on the Central American Gang. They call themselves MS-13 and "vow to teach the minutemen a lesson".

I have to say that one of these days those hicks are going to save your ass when whoever steamrolls Canada decides to come on through to the U.S. *eyes Europe warily* They may be hicks, but atleast they believe in this country and its sovereignty. There are other reasons other than protecting the economy for protecting our borders. Mexico is nearly a 3rd world country and doesn't really have much control over the people coming in and out. If we just let whoever wants to to come through, though, I suppose the terrorists won't take advantage of our kindness. They're really just nice, misunderstood terrorists.

*shakes his head and slowly walks away mumbling something about "if the immigration laws we have in place now had been in place since the beginning, none of ya'll mofos would even be here to bitch about immigrants" and closes the door behind him*

In the beginning this was a mostly unpopulated country in desperate need of a work force so it could build enough infrastructure and industry to become self-dependent. That's done. That need has been addressed, and the laws have been amended appropriately.

Frankly it's laughable that a bunch of armed hicks are calling themselves minutemen. Ah yes, how heroic, just like defending the fledgling U.S against British oppression! except it's defending the US.... economy against... the oppressively dirt-poor Mexicans looking for work!

They aren't the same thing at all. And it isn't even defending the economy, or their jobs, or anything else.

As for the central americans going to "teach them a lesson..." please! Do you think not a single one of the so-called minutemen hasn't said something about teaching THEM a lesson? This is stupid macho posturing on both sides, for no real reason other than, mostly, xenophobia.
hicks? what a snobbish comment. 40 % of the volunteers are from Orange County, which is hardly hick country. the founder, Jim Gilchrist is an accountant, and my close friend is a structural engineer. the other is a chef at a Newport beach eatery. living there in Santa Barbara, you dont see too many illegals, so you can have the attitude that you have. but once they are on every corner in your neighborhood, looking for work, and you realize we are letting people come here , not to succeed, but to starve and live in squallor, you may change your mind.

Those participating in the Minuteman Project cannot carry shotguns or rifles. Members with concealed carry (issued by the Arizona State Police) have their's and others open carry.

Mara Salvatrucia (MS13) is a El Salvadoran based crime syndicate who have offered bounties to their street enforcers for dead Americans participating in the Minuteman Project one mile into US territory with permission and cooperation of the landowners.

During the Civil War in El Salvador between communist rebels and the government, many El Salvadorans were allowed to relocate in Los Angeles. The Mexican community rejected the latest group of immigrants. Mexican gangs targetted Salvadoran families. Young Salvadoran men created their own gang to war against the much larger and better funded Mexican gangs. Marabundi (literally ant) meaning posse was shortened to Mara. Salvatrucia is common slang for a young tough guy. The 13 stems from it being a Southern California Latino gang, Northern California uses 14. Only Salvadorans can join.

The gang is now spread across 33 states and all of Mexico and Central America controlling much of the drug and illegal weapons trafficking in the northern hemisphere. Many of the members are the former Frente Farabundo Martí para la Liberación Nacional, FMLN paramilitaries who have been unemployed since a 1992 cease fire. FMLN is now a legitimate political party who shuns their former ways.

hey you :) . things change. the country changes. and let me tell you, what happens if you go to bring one of those adorable children of yours to the emergency room with appendix trouble, or something, and you wait four hours, to your babies' detriment, because there are people in there getting seen for colds, and routine vaccinations? or you have drive a half hour away to the hospital, because the close one has closed its doors, having collapsed under the weight of supporting medical care for free? it happens here . alot. i think you may think differently, then.

I live in Houston, which is one of the heaviest Mexican populated places in the country. We get "illegals" all the time and our hospital system, which is world reknown, has figured out how to manage the issue. In short, the scenario above, is a non-issue where I am because the people here - rather than bitching about it - did something about it.

That, and everyone in the world, not just US citizens, are entitled - by Divine right in my opinion - to the best medical care that they can get to.

Besides, it makes me giggle. Seeing people stream over the border and taking jobs, food, medical care, homes, women, and whatever the hell else they can get their bloody fingers around is this American Indians wet dream. Sucks when the shoe's on the other foot, eh?

I have to say that one of these days those hicks are going to save your ass when whoever steamrolls Canada decides to come on through to the U.S. *eyes Europe warily* They may be hicks, but atleast they believe in this country and its sovereignty. There are other reasons other than protecting the economy for protecting our borders. Mexico is nearly a 3rd world country and doesn't really have much control over the people coming in and out. If we just let whoever wants to to come through, though, I suppose the terrorists won't take advantage of our kindness. They're really just nice, misunderstood terrorists.

Uh, yeah. Arizona hicks will save my ass from an invasion via Canada. Makes perfect sense. What, they'll drive a few hundred miles north and abandon their homes and family?

And well you'd need a ground, sea and air force to invade Canada, but whatever I'm sure a buncha hicks with rifles is a solid defense against a combined arms force that can take out the Canadian military.

By saying they will save my ass you are also degrading the US military, which apparently would stand by with its thumb up its ass while Europe (?) invades Canada (?) and be completely helpless, but a couple hundred Arizonian border militia will save the day.

Well, thank God for that. ;)

And quit playing the terrorist card. This is the part where I'm supposed to go OMG TERRORISTS and endorse whatever the guy playing the card proposes out of fear. Well, I'm not, sorry.

Those participating in the Minuteman Project cannot carry shotguns or rifles. Members with concealed carry (issued by the Arizona State Police) have their's and others open carry.


why would yo usay they cannot carry firearms. yes they can.

http://www.minutemanproject.com/FAQ.html

Besides, it makes me giggle. Seeing people stream over the border and taking jobs, food, medical care, homes, women, and whatever the hell else they can get their bloody fingers around is this American Indians wet dream. Sucks when the shoe's on the other foot, eh?

Last time I heard, they sold it for a few pints of whiskey...

Uh, yeah. Arizona hicks will save my ass from an invasion via Canada. Makes perfect sense. What, they'll drive a few hundred miles north and abandon their homes and family?

And well you'd need a ground, sea and air force to invade Canada, but whatever I'm sure a buncha hicks with rifles is a solid defense against a >>>>>>>>>>>snip<<<<<<<<
your liberal use of the word hicks, and your lack of knowledge of the volunteers' backgrounds proves your extreme ignorance.

I live in Houston, which is one of the heaviest Mexican populated places in the country. We get "illegals" all the time and our hospital system, which is world reknown, has figured out how to manage the issue. In short, the scenario above, is a non-issue where I am because the people here - rather than bitching about it - did something about it.

That, and everyone in the world, not just US citizens, are entitled - by Divine right in my opinion - to the best medical care that they can get to.

Besides, it makes me giggle. Seeing people stream over the border and taking jobs, food, medical care, homes, women, and whatever the hell else they can get their bloody fingers around is this American Indians wet dream. Sucks when the shoe's on the other foot, eh?
i am american indian , also, and i can tell you, it doesnt make too happy about it all. my cherokee ancestors (only 2 generations back,, and its 100% pure blood, jim) chose to befriend "the white man" in order to help them fight turf wars with other tribes, not realizing they would turn on them. you know what sucks? to be a sucker and regret it later.

Last time I heard, they sold it for a few pints of whiskey...

Riiiight.

hicks? what a snobbish comment. 40 % of the volunteers are from Orange County, which is hardly hick country. the founder, Jim Gilchrist is an accountant, and my close friend is a structural engineer. the other is a chef at a Newport beach eatery. living there in Santa Barbara, you dont see too many illegals, so you can have the attitude that you have. but once they are on every corner in your neighborhood, looking for work, and you realize we are letting people come here , not to succeed, but to starve and live in squallor, you may change your mind.

"Illegals." I like how they're not actually people now, but illegals. I suppose you can also tell by looking at someone whether they entered the country through legal or fence hoops?

Yeah, 'hicks' is a snobbish comment, because I find the concept of "defending" a border against immigrants repugnant and anti-American. What exactly are they defending against? Other people looking for work? Mexicans living "on every corner in my neighborhood?" Oh excuse me, illegals. I don't see that either of these is something you need to defend against with guns, but I guess I'm not as sophisticated a thinker as these self-proclaimed Minutemen.

By the way, I'm a doughboy! Yes, I have a gun, and I'm defending America against stupidity. That makes me a doughboy! Ooh, I have a model horse too, now I'm a cavalryman!

And are you also saying that Mexicans face squallor and starvation here... but not back in Mexico? Why do you think they come here, then - to starve in opulance?

I don't think I'm changing my mind on this subject.

i am american indian , also, and i can tell you, it doesnt make too happy about it all. my cherokee ancestors (only 2 generations back,, and its 100% pure blood, jim) chose to befriend "the white man" in order to help them fight turf wars with other tribes, not realizing they would turn on them. you know what sucks? to be a sucker and regret it later.

Exactly ... so now that the "white man" is being haunted by people coming over "his" borders and whatnot, I say let it happen. They deserve no less.

your liberal use of the word hicks, and your lack of knowledge of the volunteers' backgrounds proves your extreme ignorance.

Ha. Ignorance eh? Well it's a good thing you're not resorting to ad hominem to prove your point or anything.

I know these fellows are armed with guns - some of them. My post you quoted was directly related to the fact that a few fellows (civilians) with guns cannot stop an invasion by a professional military (which is the hypothetical situation I was responding to). Are you saying then, that they also happen to have attack helicopters and heavy weapons and training?

As for "Extreme ignorance," well if my ignorance is so extreme maybe you'll be able to point out some other places where my knowledge is lacking. And meanwhile, also point out that you are omniscient and therefore, not ignorant on any subject.

You may not like what I have to say, but that doesn't make me ignorant, and what I say hardly PROVES my ignorance (and neither have you.)

"Illegals." I like how they're not actually people now, but illegals. I suppose you can also tell by looking at someone whether they entered the country through legal or fence hoops?

Yeah, 'hicks' is a snobbish comment, because I find the concept of "defending" a border against immigrants repugnant and anti-American. What exactly are they defending against? Other people looking for work? Mexicans living "on every corner in my neighborhood?" Oh excuse me, illegals. I don't see that either of these is something you need to defend against with guns, but I guess I'm not as sophisticated a thinker as these self-proclaimed Minutemen.

By the way, I'm a doughboy! Yes, I have a gun, and I'm defending America against stupidity. That makes me a doughboy! Ooh, I have a model horse too, now I'm a cavalryman!

And are you also saying that Mexicans face squallor and starvation here... but not back in Mexico? Why do you think they come here, then - to starve in opulance?

I don't think I'm changing my mind on this subject. they helping the border patrol in sighting them, smarty. not defending anything. and you know what? i use the term "illegal" because guess what? they are breaking the law of this land that you live in, also, by the way, to get here. that makes them..agianst the law. and they face horrible conditions back in mexico, but instead of trying to improve the conditions in their own country, like you na di do here, by voting, working, etc- they just come over here. how nonsensical is that? and address the issue that 912 million dollars are sent back to mexico every month , and that country has NOT improved one damn bit. sounds like mismanagement and theft to me.

Exactly ... so now that the "white man" is being haunted by people coming over "his" borders and whatnot, I say let it happen. They deserve no less.
why do live in this country then? since all you want to do is see it fail?

Ha. Ignorance eh? Well it's a good thing you're not resorting to ad hominem to prove your point or anything.

I know these fellows are armed with guns - some of them. My post you quoted was directly related to the fact that a few fellows (civilians) with guns cannot stop an invasion by a professional military (which is the hypothetical situation I was responding to). Are you saying then, that they also happen to have attack helicopters and heavy weapons and training?

As for "Extreme ignorance," well if my ignorance is so extreme maybe you'll be able to point out some other places where my knowledge is lacking. And meanwhile, also point out that you are omniscient and therefore, not ignorant on any subject.

You may not like what I have to say, but that doesn't make me ignorant, and what I say hardly PROVES my ignorance (and neither have you.)
you used the word hick, which is hardly positive- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hick
i could call you some names, but i havent .
you stated they were from arizona. i am telling you they arent. you were making broad sweeping generalizations about statements that are not true. your knowledge is lacking there, for sure, since all you have to do is read some material on theminuteman project, and you obviously did not.

Well, I hope the Central American Gang gets slaughtered and the minutemen don't accidentally shoot any civilians.


Agreed.

they helping the border patrol in sighting them, smarty. not defending anything. and you know what? i use the term "illegal" because guess what? they are breaking the law of this land that you live in, also, by the way, to get here. that makes them..agianst the law.

Oh, okay. Have you ever crossed the street not at a crosswalk? That's against the law too. Have you ever littered anywhere, on accident or purpose? That too. Do we get to refer to you as "an illegal?"

The term "illegal" when chosen as the sole moniker for someone is not too many steps from dehumanizing them completely. If a person is illegal, after all, then IT'S death isn't murder and/or doesn't count as much as if they were a "legal."

and they face horrible conditions back in mexico, but instead of trying to improve the conditions in their own country, like you na di do here, by voting, working, etc- they just come over here. how nonsensical is that?

Yeah imagine that, leaving a corrupt impoverished country for a wealthy and (supposedly) free country which is just a few miles north! How utterly unbelievable for a reasonable person to ever do.

Maybe, just maybe "voting, working etc" isn't enough back in Mexico.

and address the issue that 912 million dollars are sent back to mexico every month , and that country has NOT improved one damn bit. sounds like mismanagement and theft to me.

Bah, how about all the BILLIONS sent to Israel's fascist theocratic government? every year? For dozens of years? When it comes to spending money I do not believe a government, including ours, is the wisest chooser. But that's neither here or there for this argument...

why do live in this country then? since all you want to do is see it fail?

Because it's mine. This country was founded on "Love it, or change it" not "Love it, or leave it".

Oh, okay. Have you ever crossed the street not at a crosswalk? That's against the law too. Have you ever littered anywhere, on accident or purpose? That too. Do we get to refer to you as "an illegal?"

The term "illegal" when chosen as the sole moniker for someone is not too many steps from dehumanizing them completely. If a person is illegal, after all, then IT'S death isn't murder and/or doesn't count as much as if they were a "legal."



Yeah imagine that, leaving a corrupt impoverished country for a wealthy and (supposedly) free country which is just a few miles north! How utterly unbelievable for a reasonable person to ever do.

Maybe, just maybe "voting, working etc" isn't enough back in Mexico.



Bah, how about all the BILLIONS sent to Israel's fascist theocratic government? every year? For dozens of years? When it comes to spending money I do not believe a government, including ours, is the wisest chooser. But that's neither here or there for this argument... i am a citizen , arent i? that is base one. and i dont litter, or jaywalk. i was brought up by an fascist italian naval officer. i cant even spit on the ground.

and who says i agree with anything we do for isreal? because i dont. and if i get started on that- uh oh.
just answer me, why is the country impoverished still? with all that monetary support?
you want me to lenghten the term to man/woman child ,human being with a beating heart and functioning brain that breaks the law to enter this country ,from another place perhaps mexico, but also several latin american countries, and lets not leave oout africa, europe, asia, and the isle of man? is that better? what do you want me to call them? "illegal people"??

Because it's mine. This country was founded on "Love it, or change it" not "Love it, or leave it".
well its nice that you want to share it with the world.

well its nice that you want to share it with the world.

Sure ... why not? We are, after all, the land of plenty. Greed is the single most unspeakably ugly thing in the world to me. We not only have, but we have way, way too much. Sharing it with the neighbors won't hurt us at all.

i am a citizen , arent i? that is base one. and i dont litter, or jaywalk. i was brought up by an fascist italian naval officer. i cant even spit on the ground.


Well, the law is a tricky, complicated thing, and I am not certain it is possible for everyone to never ever break a single law. Those were just examples I presented because they are obvious and minor, but there's plenty of minor and inobvious laws too, we can't just call anyone "illegal" for having ever broken a law somewhere.


and who says i agree with anything we do for isreal? because i dont. and if i get started on that- uh oh.

Well who said I agree with anything the US government does for the Mexican government? All of which has little to do with immigrants. If I'm starving, I'll consider immigration regardless of how much money my government gets from other governments.


just answer me, why is the country impoverished still? with all that monetary support?

I already said governments are not the most efficient spenders, and thats just yet another example. Two, actually: the USA wasting tax dollars by attempting to subsidize other governments, and Mexico wasting money probably by subsidizing businesses or lining corrupt pockets.

Corruption is everywhere, especially governments, especially when there's large cash transactions going on...


you want me to lenghten the term to man/woman child ,human being with a beating heart and functioning brain that breaks the law to enter this country ,from another place perhaps mexico, but also several latin american countries, and lets not leave oout africa, europe, asia, and the isle of man? is that better? what do you want me to call them? "illegal people"??

How about "illegal immigrants?"

Sure ... why not? We are, after all, the land of plenty. Greed is the single most unspeakably ugly thing in the world to me. We not only have, but we have way, way too much. Sharing it with the neighbors won't hurt us at all.
favorite, i see why you feel this way. but i just dont see anyone being enriched, here. i see people being promised too much, and getting nothing. i see a lot of poor kids that were told they were coming to the land of plenty, only to get nothing. i see families living in deplorable conditions in a strange land, with a strange language and customs, and many of them are confused...after all, didnt the coyote tell of the streets paved in gold in the north? i see billions going south, into the hands of drug dealers and corrupt government, and the people getting nothing. i have been challenged on this point. i even bought a house in mexico, so i could pay taxes there, and say that i was contributing to their economy legally, and not through illegal immigration. i never got a tax bill. instead, i had 7 armed federales visit my home in the middle of the night in june, and demand the deed, have serious consequences. they left, and that home was burned down two days later. i feel that that mentality will be soon used here, and i dont like it. we have enough corruption in our government.

Here's an idea I've yet to hear of elsewhere:
(Some parts of it may have been made up by other people, but I've never seen the details brought together liike this)

How about the government stops giving handouts to immigrants (Legal or otherwise) and simply grants citizenship to anyone who can make the trip? The citizenship would enable them to work the same wages and legal protection as their non-immigrant counterparts, buy property once they can afford it, and basically live as a happy citizen of the good ol' US of A.
With all immigration being effectively legal, companies and individuals would no longer have any incentive to pay slave-wages; they would be legally required to pay everyone the same.
With the handouts eliminated there will be no reason for freeloaders to enter the country unless they feel for some reason like starving on American rather than Mexican streets.

I suppose this practice could work with the UK as well.

Well, the law is a tricky, complicated thing, and I am not certain it is possible for everyone to never ever break a single law. Those were just examples I presented because they are obvious and minor, but there's plenty of minor and inobvious laws too, we can't just call anyone "illegal" for having ever broken a law somewhere.




Well who said I agree with anything the US government does for the Mexican government? All of which has little to do with immigrants. If I'm starving, I'll consider immigration regardless of how much money my government gets from other governments.



I already said governments are not the most efficient spenders, and thats just yet another example. Two, actually: the USA wasting tax dollars by attempting to subsidize other governments, and Mexico wasting money probably by subsidizing businesses or lining corrupt pockets.

Corruption is everywhere, especially governments, especially when there's large cash transactions going on...



How about "illegal immigrants?" illegal immigrants it is. and by the money going home, i mean the workers that originted south of us are sending millions home a month. not our government.
and i agree with you about the starving thing, also, but i just dont see the migrant workers here eating or living decently. they are, for the most part struggling. and i know this first hand. my single friends and i sponsor 2 large illegal immigrant families at christmas, thanksgiving, and easter. and a lot of knowledge that i get is from those families. iam not selfish, or heartless, i continue to do what i can , even for causes that i dont believe, in the name of goodness, because i have so much.
i just feel that if we imported workers here, a bit each year, who knew basic english, and could helpo them actually get somewhere, instead out of the frying pan and into the fire, it would put the pressure on mexico and other countries that they must "fix " their countries.

Here's an idea I've yet to hear of elsewhere:
(Some parts of it may have been made up by other people, but I've never seen the details brought together liike this)

How about the government stops giving handouts to immigrants (Legal or otherwise) and simply grants citizenship to anyone who can make the trip? The citizenship would enable them to work the same wages and legal protection as their non-immigrant counterparts, buy property once they can afford it, and basically live as a happy citizen of the good ol' US of A.
With all immigration being effectively legal, companies and individuals would no longer have any incentive to pay slave-wages; they would be legally required to pay everyone the same.
With the handouts eliminated there will be no reason for freeloaders to enter the country unless they feel for some reason like starving on American rather than Mexican streets.

I suppose this practice could work with the UK as well.
the desert would be full of dead women , children and elderly.

These men are supposedly not doing anything violent, but they are reporting to the border patrol about people who are breaking the laws, whether we like it or not, the immigration laws must be enforced, even with citizen help, especially in a post 9/11 world and the report that Zarqawi and Al-Qaeda have thought about smuggling potential terrorists across the border.

You mean it isn't right now?
And what about the fact that the change in law, once realised, would mean that 'human trafficking' - and the resultant deaths of those hidden in boxcars etc. - would be rendered obsolete? Wouldn't the prospective immigrants simply have to either thumb a lift over or pay someone significantly less money to take them over?

Apparently it's being sparingly enforced, with low numbers of border patrol employees, and the higher numbers of illegals trying to get over the border means that we can't catch them all, and any one of them could end up being terrorists or fleeing criminals, and if "vigilantes" have to volunteer to watch the borders, so be it.

I am from AZ. I gotta tell ya, I have been hoping for year for this to happen. Now, I am by no means anti-Mexican or anti-immigration, but the illegals are a real problem. Vehicles get stolen, ranchers (a BIG bussiness in AZ) get their fences cut so that their live stock get loose and hit by cars, and just last year an elderly couple who got married the day before, were killed by these illegals running from the police. Its about time something was done-and as much as I hate to say it, Bush wasnt doing it.

Exactly ... so now that the "white man" is being haunted by people coming over "his" borders and whatnot, I say let it happen. They deserve no less.

Considering that it's cheaper for some asshole to hire illegals than it is to hire Native American (ethnic) workers, it's screwing your people too.
Merry christmas.

the desert would be full of dead women , children and elderly.
Fine, let them rot-while we are at it, lets drop this welfare society we got by making them work the jobs the illegals take-thats 2 problems solved.

But you are fine with the concept of organized criminal gangs looking for revenge?
Find a single quote where I have ever said that. In fact, I just finished calling such gangs (coyotes) the absolute biggest threat in terms of immigration issues.

Honestly, say what you like about the minutemen, they can't possibly be as dangerous as the central american gang. (And by all accounts, they are honest citizens trying to help the govenrment, not armed vigilantes).We are not comparing levels of dangerousness. They are an insufficient bandage on the oozing and putrid sore that is human trafficking.

a little cut and paste here, for the "humanists of the forum" :)
At least 346 migrants from Mexico and Latin America died trying to cross the border during the government's 2003 fiscal year, which ended on Tuesday, the U.S. Bureau of Customs and Border Protection said.

The main cause of death, with at least 139 cases, was dehydration or exposure in the Sonoran Desert in southern Arizona. It has become the main migration route since a border crackdown known as Operation Gatekeeper began eight years ago.

Others drowned in the Rio Grande River (called Rio Bravo in Mexico) that divides Texas and Mexico, or perished in car crashes in unsuccessful attempts at "border running," or trying to outrun border patrol agents on rural highways and freeways.

The death statistics do not include dozens who suffocate in boxcars or die in high-speed car chases in counties that are not located along the border -- like 19 who died in May in an airless tractor-trailer near Victoria, Texas.

Chavez said border agents succeeded in saving many lives. During 2003, they rescued more than 1,200 migrants, giving emergency medical treatment to many and transporting others to area hospitals, she said.
Again, pull the teeth of the traffickers. Open immigration up completely.

You're right and if we legalized drunk driving, we wouldn't have to pull so many drunks off the highway. :rolleyes:
So immigration is somehow as reckless and dangerous as drunk driving? Lame analogy...do you equate marriage licences with gun licenses too? They are qualitatively different issues.

Let's say you have this migrant worker, and he's got a legit green-card. He's going to make a fair wage, and he's not going to be exploited, because he has legal protections and no cause to fear the authorities.

Now, take this Illegal migrant. He's got the same skillset, but no green-card. an unscrupulous bastard will take advantage of him, treat him like a f**king slave-and because he fears the authorities more than he does the abuse, the Illegal will take it.
So make all immigration legal. Make it illegal to exploit ANY worker. Maintain a minimum wage. Have faith in your capitalist system to even out the population through supply and demand...increase in population, increase in jobs to point 'x', then not enough jobs to go around, and 'x' number of people then decide to try their prospects elsewhere. Make sure you are collecting taxes from EVERY worker within your borders, and maintain your social systems in this manner.


Second reason it's a problem, is because a lot of Illegals come up to have a baby-and a person born in the U.S. is a Citizen. Most social services won't separate mommy from baby-so now, she's got coverage to stay in the U.S., and since she doesn't have marketable skills, or a strong grasp of the language, she gets a state-funded free ride, until the kid's eighteen...
This happens a LOT in the Southwestern states, and it IS a major problem.
Again, why is this happening? Because Latina women want gringo babies? No, they want an in to a country that would otherwise deny them entry.


Third Reason: Coyotes. Not the canine predator, but Human Predators, who take the money of people fleeing bad, bad, places in exchange for the promise to get them into the country.
Again, remove the profit by making immigration legal, and you skin the coyotes.


I'm a fairly nice person, most of hte time, I'll help a guy out if he asks and I can do it. But, there are limits. if you want to come to my house for dinner, you don't break in the kitchen window, or sneak in through the basement.
Same way, if you want to come to my country, I think you should ask first-it's simple manners. If you want to join my family, you ask, see? "Just showing up" by sneaking into the house is not how you do it. My ancestors had to come by Ellis Island, they waited a couple years to get in, it's only fair that people who want to be Americans, or come here to work, be ready to do the same.
Well my ancestors had their homes burned, and their land stolen. Borders fluctuate. Much of the southwest once belonged to Mexico. So what? This isn't about immigration and 'maintaining borders' for most people...it's about fear. The fear of cultural assimilation by a larger population, the fear of people who look different, speak a different language, eat different food and so on. You want to limit who gets into your country, but immigration laws are set up to value wealth above all, and you have rich criminals in droves, while you lower the percentage of refugees that you will give asylum. The immigration process is a terrible, dehumanizing, and expensive process meant to discourage and refuse. The ones who can navigate through it are the ones who can afford the lawyer fees. Money and privilege do not necessarily make for better citizens. You people talk all the time of 'opportunity' and the 'American Dream' but you mean it for you, and you alone. At some point we all have to realise that we truly live an international world, and this rigid control of our borders is pointless and isolationist.

Just for once, consider the positive side of immigration, legal or otherwise. It means cultural renewal as new influences are integrated. It means more women with asses like Jennifer Lopez. :D It means your kids will probably grow up being multilingual, and with a greater knowledge of the world around them. It means you will have the support through taxation for your social programs that would otherwise be strained to breaking by negative population growth. It means getting more comfortable with people who are different than you.

Last time I heard, they sold it for a few pints of whiskey...
Yeah, pretty dumb of us, huh? We didn't know that we were also giving permission for the Europeans to slaughter us, stuff us onto reservations, force us into religious schools to erase our culture, all the while revelling in the sexual and physical abuse there, covering it up as much as they could, and then welcoming us 'into the fold' of society once we had been made completely dependent on the government. Stupid fricking Injuns.

I have to say that I am quite surprised to be agreeing with you here, Santa Barbara...I hadn't actually thought it possible!

[Again, why is this happening? Because Latina women want gringo babies? No, they want an in to a country that would otherwise deny them entry. ]
Those illegal women use tax payer money to pay for their babies. I might not be able to help that disabled vet out or those retired folks, hell I may never see the social security I am working for, but I can sure help this illegal woman have her kid.

.Again, remove the profit by making immigration legal, and you skin the coyotes.[/QUOTE]
Tougher laws could also prevent this


Just for once, consider the positive side of immigration, legal or otherwise. It means cultural renewal as new influences are integrated. It means more women with asses like Jennifer Lopez. :D It means your kids will probably grow up being multilingual, and with a greater knowledge of the world around them. It means you will have the support through taxation for your social programs that would otherwise be strained to breaking by negative population growth. It means getting more comfortable with people who are different than you.[/QUOTE]


Have you even been to ARIZONA? We are multi cultural to the extreme! I grew up with Mexicans whites blacks what ever. Most of the people in Arizona have. And Screw multilingual . Guess what- THIS IS the US of A! yeah indians owned it once (including some of my ancestors) so did Mexico, but you know what? NOT ANYMORE. Why is it the loser always crys foul? Instead of trying to make American culture more understanding of this group or that group after that group moves in, maybee the group in question should become part of the winning team

why do live in this country then? since all you want to do is see it fail?
Why are you looking at immigration as some sort of hostile invasion? Surely you have a political and economic system that is equal to the task of smoothing out the wrinkles in the idea of open borders? They are not coming in with the intention (as the Europeans first did) of pillage, rapine, and resources extraction. They are coming to 'make a better life' for themselves and their families. Your society (and mine) already has some serious flaws that need fixing, and at first, an influx of people, legal or not, may strain an already strained system...but they might also provide some solutions.

First, please go back and fix the quotes...it's weird to see my words printed as though you are saying them, then disagreeing with them in the next breath. :p


Have you even been to ARIZONA? We are multi cultural to the extreme! I grew up with Mexicans whites blacks what ever. Most of the people in Arizona have. And Screw multilingual . Guess what- THIS IS the US of A!
Meaning you are completely inflexible and opposed to learning any language other than English? How incredibly ethnocentric and sad of you. Learning multiple languages has enormous benefits, especially for children. Here are a few:

With skills in another language you:
- will have more post secondary institutions to choose from, both in your country and abroad.
- can take degree programs and courses that have second language prerequisite without needing make up courses.
- have a larger pool of reference materials, literature, and music from which to study and enjoy.
- develop problem-solving skills, self-discipline, and the ability to understand cultural differences. You also improve your listening skills, improve your test scores in mathematics and enhance your communication skills in your mother tongue.
- more business opportunities with foreign markets.
- more opportunities for employment at home and abroad in the service sectors, as well as at libraries, museums and research facilities etc.


yeah indians owned it once (including some of my ancestors) so did Mexico, but you know what? NOT ANYMORE. Why is it the loser always crys foul? Instead of trying to make American culture more understanding of this group or that group after that group moves in, maybee the group in question should become part of the winning team
Again, why are you treating immigration like a hostile invasion? It shouldn't be an issue of loser versus winner...but it always will be when you see 'them' as the 'enemy' instead of just people.

Now why would the American Government stop illegal immigrants from entering the countries when they are the only reason that some corporations don't shift their production or service facilities outside of the States, where they can't pay taxes...

Interesting - true freedom and rights to all. Provided you're American. This seems like a moral concept of human rights to me.

It's OK, as most of the developed world does, or has done, to deny rights to people. To kill them in the name of greater good by either direct military action or by oppressive economic policies that leave people starving or working in sweat shop jobs.
So long as they aren't your nationals. I mean, who care's about people who aren't the same as you?

Not to attack the US in particular - Britain has the first concentration camps on its hands when it started the Boer war, largely over the gold reserves there. And the EU's international economic policies probably don't stand up to much moral scrutiny.

Point is, all those people who we safely label as 'illegals' have the same rights as the rest of us. Being born on a particular piece of dirt shouldn't make you privileged - it's a bit like saying that someone should be privileged merely because of who his father was, as per ye olde aristocratic system. The 'illegals' have the same rights as American citizens, or the citizens of any other developed country, purely by virtue of their humanity. And don't try and claim you've 'earned' your rights by honest labour in good ol' US or miscelanious other developed nation - since when has school and a nice, regulated, job been easier than growing up in a poverty stricken part of the world, trying to scrape a living, possibly from sweat-shop labour? Surely the guy who's done that and trekked across the desert for a job in fast-food has earned his privileges?

And just a wee point about the minutemen in particular. It's insane to have armed groups of civilians running about. It's insane to have armed civilians full stop. This will probably offend most Americans, but the fact is that there's a reason we have police forces and courts. They may not stop crime efficiently, but it's a hell of a lot better than having the arrest, trial, and execution of a person in the split second of pulling a trigger. You may think you have a right to carry a weapon, but do you have right to dispense aninstant sentence on a person who has not had their right to due process? And that's why I think groups like the minutemen are a bad idea.

OK, rant over. Feel free to criticise

I dont know if this has been stated before but, the powers that be are not going to enforce border patrol because the southern states depend on the cheap labour mexicans provide.

How many white people are going to pick vegys in the middle of the cali desert? Not many.

I dont think people realize how important the illegals are...

Someone earlier said it was their democratic right to kick the mexicans out, or something to this extent... Good sir, do you know what your democratic rights are and what they pertain to? Because they certainly do not relate to the use of force against another nationality.


I dont know if this has been stated before but, the powers that be are not going to enforce border patrol because the southern states depend on the cheap labour mexicans provide.

How many white people are going to pick vegys in the middle of the cali desert? Not many.

I dont think people realize how important the illegals are...

Exactly correct!

Have you even been to ARIZONA? We are multi cultural to the extreme! I grew up with Mexicans whites blacks what ever. Most of the people in Arizona have. And Screw multilingual . Guess what- THIS IS the US of A! yeah indians owned it once (including some of my ancestors) so did Mexico, but you know what? NOT ANYMORE. Why is it the loser always crys foul? Instead of trying to make American culture more understanding of this group or that group after that group moves in, maybee the group in question should become part of the winning team

Show me where it says in the Constitution that the only language that can be spoken is English.

Interesting - true freedom and rights to all. Provided you're American. This seems like a moral concept of human rights to me.

It's OK, as most of the developed world does, or has done, to deny rights to people. To kill them in the name of greater good by either direct military action or by oppressive economic policies that leave people starving or working in sweat shop jobs.
So long as they aren't your nationals. I mean, who care's about people who aren't the same as you?

Not to attack the US in particular - Britain has the first concentration camps on its hands when it started the Boer war, largely over the gold reserves there. And the EU's international economic policies probably don't stand up to much moral scrutiny.

Point is, all those people who we safely label as 'illegals' have the same rights as the rest of us. Being born on a particular piece of dirt shouldn't make you privileged - it's a bit like saying that someone should be privileged merely because of who his father was, as per ye olde aristocratic system. The 'illegals' have the same rights as American citizens, or the citizens of any other developed country, purely by virtue of their humanity. And don't try and claim you've 'earned' your rights by honest labour in good ol' US or miscelanious other developed nation - since when has school and a nice, regulated, job been easier than growing up in a poverty stricken part of the world, trying to scrape a living, possibly from sweat-shop labour? Surely the guy who's done that and trekked across the desert for a job in fast-food has earned his privileges?

And just a wee point about the minutemen in particular. It's insane to have armed groups of civilians running about. It's insane to have armed civilians full stop. This will probably offend most Americans, but the fact is that there's a reason we have police forces and courts. They may not stop crime efficiently, but it's a hell of a lot better than having the arrest, trial, and execution of a person in the split second of pulling a trigger. You may think you have a right to carry a weapon, but do you have right to dispense aninstant sentence on a person who has not had their right to due process? And that's why I think groups like the minutemen are a bad idea.

OK, rant over. Feel free to criticise
*big kiss*
Exactly. We're all human. Enough with the jingoistic crap already. True globalism means erasing borders.

So make all immigration legal. Make it illegal to exploit ANY worker. Maintain a minimum wage. Have faith in your capitalist system to even out the population through supply and demand...increase in population, increase in jobs to point 'x', then not enough jobs to go around, and 'x' number of people then decide to try their prospects elsewhere. Make sure you are collecting taxes from EVERY worker within your borders, and maintain your social systems in this manner.


Again, why is this happening? Because Latina women want gringo babies? No, they want an in to a country that would otherwise deny them entry.


Again, remove the profit by making immigration legal, and you skin the coyotes.


Well my ancestors had their homes burned, and their land stolen. Borders fluctuate. Much of the southwest once belonged to Mexico. So what? This isn't about immigration and 'maintaining borders' for most people...it's about fear. The fear of cultural assimilation by a larger population, the fear of people who look different, speak a different language, eat different food and so on. You want to limit who gets into your country, but immigration laws are set up to value wealth above all, and you have rich criminals in droves, while you lower the percentage of refugees that you will give asylum. The immigration process is a terrible, dehumanizing, and expensive process meant to discourage and refuse. The ones who can navigate through it are the ones who can afford the lawyer fees. Money and privilege do not necessarily make for better citizens. You people talk all the time of 'opportunity' and the 'American Dream' but you mean it for you, and you alone. At some point we all have to realise that we truly live an international world, and this rigid control of our borders is pointless and isolationist.

Just for once, consider the positive side of immigration, legal or otherwise. It means cultural renewal as new influences are integrated. It means more women with asses like Jennifer Lopez. :D It means your kids will probably grow up being multilingual, and with a greater knowledge of the world around them. It means you will have the support through taxation for your social programs that would otherwise be strained to breaking by negative population growth. It means getting more comfortable with people who are different than you.


Look, it's not about "Fear", it's about "economics". Take an already tight labour market, now flood it with more people. In case you haven't noticed, most of the manufacturing has left the country, as has most of the other family-wage jobs. I'm having a hell of a time of it right now- opening up immigration even more isn't going to change that, except in the negative direction.
Without significant changes to trade and regulatory policies to bring the manufacturing back-or make it easier for new companies to open up, all you're doing by going 'open borders' is spreading the misery around-and reducing the value of both skilled, and unskilled, labour by choking the market on able-bodies.
Unless and until this country stops trying to live on its capital, and returns to living on production, the economy can't afford yet more unemployed -looking-for-work.

Think of it this way: YOU CAN NOT LIVE ON MINIMUM WAGE. each time minimum wage goes up, prices follow. with more labour than jobs, more jobs are minimum wage-because Employers can afford for it to be. (and can't afford not to if they want to be competitive.) When you have more jobs than job-seekers (or qualified applicants) you can easily 'soak' additional bodies up. when you have fewer jobs, that pay less, you simply can't.

Illegal immigration is the only reason why there is still a small manufacturing sector in the United States. The balance we're at now is perfectly fine, and the Status Quo is working. What needs to be done is the current Government needs to step back from its protectionist economics ideology and embrace globalism... that is if you wish to take yourself out of that trough your in.

What do you guys think about this vigilante action?
As a resident of Cochise county, Arizona, epicenter of the Minuteman Project, I think they are doing a fantastic job. I constantly see illegal sneak-ins running around, running thru my yard, not respecting my property or my family. Sneak-ins are destroying the economy in Arizona. An absurd amount of illegal sneak-ins come thru this area. Today, one of the sneak-ins had the temerity to say he was abused while breaking the laws of this nation. STFU. Stop breaking the law. I live 10 miles from the border and these people are dangerous.

I just with it had been me who'd thought of jamming their radios. 8(

Sneak-ins are destroying the economy in Arizona.


All those damned houses that they build.

And the god-damned dish washing they do.

Why, every arizonan would live in a palace if THEY could get jobs washing dishes and buildings houses.

Dirty mexicans need to ruin their OWN economy and stop ruining arizona's.

:rolleyes:

All those damned houses that they build.

And the god-damned dish washing they do.

Why, every arizonan would live in a palace if THEY could get jobs washing dishes and buildings houses.

Dirty mexicans need to ruin their OWN economy and stop ruining arizona's.

:rolleyes:Ignorant.

All the god-damned health care they use and don't pay for.

All the damned money we have to spend on treating the sneak-ins who get hurt out here in the desert.

All the illegal sneak-ins that are criminals and repeat offenders that sneak in only to be put in jail again.

Shut up and get a clue until you know what you are talking about.

Ignorant.

All the god-damned health care they use and don't pay for.

All the damned money we have to spend on treating the sneak-ins who get hurt out here in the desert.

All the illegal sneak-ins that are criminals and repeat offenders that sneak in only to be put in jail again.

Shut up and get a clue until you know what you are talking about.


Whooooa nelly.

So... the arizona economy is being ruined by health care that illegal immigrants get? Or dont get because of prop 20-whatever?

Which economist told you that the drain on the arizona economy based on the cost of giving health care to illegals and keeping them in jail &c. outweigh the economic utility of cheap labor for homebuilding, hospitality cleaning and food service!?


I wonder if colleges can revoke degrees over that kind of stuff...

You know guys, if the US government didn't have a vested interest in keeping the borders porous, do you think they would be that way?

Why do you think you have cheap produce available in your markets -- because illegals plant, weed by hand (have you ever seen people week acres of celery by walking down each and every row?), harvest by hand and clean your fruits and vegetables?

Why do you have cheap meat -- because illegals work in the slaughter houses killing, gutting and prepping the animals.

Why do you have cheap clothes -- well, because of sweat shop conditions in the 3rd world but do you really think the few factories that are still in the US employ Americans as seamstresses? Don't make me laugh.

Why can professional women work full time -- because they have illegal nannies, maids and cooks. The men have illegal gardeners.

Why do we have recycling plants, foundaries, plumbing fixture manufacturers, etc., etc. which are non-union and pay minimum or just-about-minimum wage still left in the US; why haven't these plants gone overseas - porque ellos están repletos de trabajadores sudamericanos. Comprende?

You are upset because your neighborhood is full of our impovrished neighbors. Well let me inform you, my friend, that this country votes for this system every time they put a republican, and many times when they put a democrat in office. The office holders are beholden to industry who gives huge amounts in campaign donations. If you want to know why you're "over run" look no further than big business, small politicians and especially, Tom Delay.

Delay went to Saipan, looked at the sweatshops that pay 1.25/hour and skirt the U. S. labor laws there, and said it was good. He said that was the model he wanted for our country.

Think about it for a moment.

Whooooa nelly.

So... the arizona economy is being ruined by health care that illegal immigrants get? Or dont get because of prop 20-whatever?

Which economist told you that the drain on the arizona economy based on the cost of giving health care to illegals and keeping them in jail &c. outweigh the economic utility of cheap labor for homebuilding, hospitality cleaning and food service!?


I wonder if colleges can revoke degrees over that kind of stuff...
explain hospital closures (emergency rooms, esp) in california. where do you live?

You know guys, if the US government didn't have a vested interest in keeping the borders porous, do you think they would be that way? >>>snip<<<


oh, so now some foreigner is going to hit up the thread and suppoort the US government?? after proclaiming Bush to be the antichrist every chance you get?? this post holds as much water as my mesh thong.

What do you guys think about this vigilante action?

i only see it as vigilante as neighborhood watches.. whats the difference with the expection that the towns are working together instead of streets... same purpose... in fact they are doing the state's job for them.. saving tax dollars... as long as no one is hurt i think its applaudable

oh, so now some foreigner is going to hit up the thread and suppoort the US government?? after proclaiming Bush to be the antichrist every chance you get?? this post holds as much water as my mesh thong.My dear sir, read the post. There's no talk of anti-Christ which I leave to the Christians. Merely a statement that our government and our business community have a vested interest in a source of cheap and plentiful labor. You need to get out into the factories and fields, more, dear, and you'd be seein' what I'm seein'.

I dont know if this has been stated before but, the powers that be are not going to enforce border patrol because the southern states depend on the cheap labour mexicans provide.

How many white people are going to pick vegys in the middle of the cali desert? Not many.

I dont think people realize how important the illegals are...
hey buddy, go back to third GRADE. vegatables dont grow in the desert.
and the fact that there are people here, doing jobs that Americans should be doing their damn selves is changing this society into a bunch of fat, lazy, better than thou types. and i hate it. every person that bitches about the stupid americans, or whatever the fuck it is you say about us- just remember- if thousands of people came to your country , and offered to clean your house, raise your kids, mow your lawn, etc. for basically no money, you would take advantage of it too. and thats what my fellow citizens are doing, and there are many traditional people trying to change things back to the way they used to be.

My dear sir, read the post. There's no talk of anti-Christ which I leave to the Christians. Merely a statement that our government and our business community have a vested interest in a source of cheap and plentiful labor. You need to get out into the factories and fields, more, dear, and you'd be seein' what I'm seein'.
i live in southern california, ten miles away from the largest concentration of illegal immigrants in the US. my best friend owns a large construction company, and i very familiar with the alien workforce. did you even READ the first part of this thread? if you did not, dont bother with me.

Show me where it says in the Constitution that the only language that can be spoken is English.
27 states to date have adopted English as their official language, in their state constitution.

hey buddy, go back to third GRADE. vegatables dont grow in the desert.
and the fact that there are people here, doing jobs that Americans should be doing their damn selves is changing this society into a bunch of fat, lazy, better than thou types. and i hate it. every person that bitches about the stupid americans, or whatever the fuck it is you say about us- just remember- if thousands of people came to your country , and offered to clean your house, raise your kids, mow your lawn, etc. for basically no money, you would take advantage of it too. and thats what my fellow citizens are doing, and there are many traditional people trying to change things back to the way they used to be.Buddy, this statement just shows how little you know about ag. The entire central valley in CA was desert until some immigrants (mostly Japanese) reclaimed it. So what are you saying here? You gonna go out and take them crap ag, or domestic or poisonous reclaimation jobs for minimum wage? Yeah, right. Even the blacks, who used to do the work rather go to college and sit in an office.

i live in southern california, ten miles away from the largest concentration of illegal immigrants in the US. my best friend owns a large construction company, and i very familiar with the alien workforce. did you even READ the first part of this thread? if you did not, dont bother with me.Well, if your best friend is hiring illegal immigrants what the heck are you complaining about?

Buddy, this statement just shows how little you know about ag. The entire central valley in CA was desert until some immigrants (mostly Japanese) reclaimed it. So what are you saying here? You gonna go out and take them crap ag, or domestic or poisonous reclaimation jobs for minimum wage? Yeah, right. Even the blacks, who used to do the work rather go to college and sit in an office.
you want me to define desert? the habitat is sage scrub, and riperian. he made it seem like they are in 108 degree weather- outside of Death Valley, picking tomatoes. and you know what? farming is a hard job. maybe if more teens today did it throught their developing years, like they used to, we would have a more responsible society, and not have kids born with cell phones one ear,and tiffany bracelets aroung their arm. youth that work hard are proven to do better in about every area of life.

Well, if your best friend is hiring illegal immigrants what the heck are you complaining about?
point is, he is not. and can barely stay above water getting peoplewith real social security numbers. and like i said, read the thread. i stated things that i continuously do to assist the migrant community.

GRRRR I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE BLUR THE LINE!!!! IMMIGRANTS =/= ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.. yes japanese immigrants came ... legally.. and worked... legally... not like these people who are smuggled or smuggle themselves into the country, and offer their services at 3 dollars an hour so they dont starve or are deported immediatly (because that might be worse then starvation).... and while the idea that illegals do the jobs Americans dont want to do may float in some industries.. MANY illegal immigrants work in jobs Americans WANT TO DO BADLY... but can't because their presence acts as a massive incentive to employers seeing big dollar signs as they dont have to give into LAbor unions or pay even minimum wages! (automobil industries, manufacutring industries, food industries, retail)

you want me to define desert? the habitat is sage scrub, and riperian. he made it seem like they are in 108 degree weather- outside of Death Valley, picking tomatoes. and you know what? farming is a hard job. maybe if more teens today did it throught their developing years, like they used to, we would have a more responsible society, and not have kids born with cell phones one ear,and tiffany bracelets aroung their arm. youth that work hard are proven to do better in about every area of life.Well, gosh, something we can agree on. Yup, society would be better off if kids weren't given so many material things so young, but just how are you going to turn the clock back? You ought to try posing this suggestion (that farmers hire american teen agers) to some of the big farms in central valley and see what kind of reception you get on this one.

GRRRR I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE BLUR THE LINE!!!! IMMIGRANTS =/= ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT.. yes japanese immigrants came ... legally.. and worked... legally... not like these people who are smuggled or smuggle themselves into the country, and offer their services at 3 dollars an hour so they dont starve or are deported immediatly (because that might be worse then starvation).... and while the idea that illegals do the jobs Americans dont want to do may float in some industries.. MANY illegal immigrants work in jobs Americans WANT TO DO BADLY... but can't because their presence acts as a massive incentive to employers seeing big dollar signs as they dont have to give into LAbor unions or pay even minimum wages! (automobil industries, manufacutring industries, food industries, retail)I rest my case. IOW you're saying that businesses want cheap labor that they can oppress. That's what I'm saying.

You're ALL confused.

We're not talking about immigration here - we're talking about an invasion of our soverign borders, and a Government in Mexico that is taking advantage of it. There is a government agency in Mexico that encourages people to cross the border illegally, because most of them get a job in America and send money back to their families in Mexico. These boosts the Mexican Economy but putting money into circulation over there, and limits US Economy by taking the money out of the US.

We're not talking about Republican or Democrat, we're talking about a corrupt government system. Do you know that Kerry and Bush had identical policies about Immigration and Amnesty? Neither one was opposed either. Why? Because being in favor of it wins the Hispanic bote.

We are talking here about thousands of people crossing the border every month. So if you're French, or German, or Mexican, or Canadian, think about how you would feel if 10,000 Americans crossed the border into your country and declared they were there to work for less then you will just so they can have a job.

I'm not saying the situation in Mexico isn't bad, it is. But there's a situation in America too, with unemployment on the rise and our economy dropping. Do you know why? Because illegal immigrants come in and take jobs away from Americans, and take the money out of the country to spend it.

I don't agree with that one bit.

They're not all Immigrants! You say. I'll tell you how to tell the differance. Find out which ones speak English. Because most of them DON'T. If you're going to move to the US at least learn the bloody language. In fact, I think it's a requirement that you read and speak basic English before you can immigrate legally. I'm in favor of legal immigration, in limited numbers.

I don't think we need to throw open our borders and support every third-world nation, however. That's extreme and unncessary.

And lastly, I am sick to death of living in America, my country, in California, my own state, and watching a group like the Hispanics get special privlidges because they are a "minorty".

I'm sorry, but California is the only state in the Nation where a White American Citizen is in the MINORITY and deserves Special Rights.

Let them come, but let them come legally. Let the come, but don't give them special rights. Let them come, but don't, by god don't let them invade your nation.

Well, gosh, something we can agree on. Yup, society would be better off if kids weren't given so many material things so young, but just how are you going to turn the clock back? You ought to try posing this suggestion (that farmers hire american teen agers) to some of the big farms in central valley and see what kind of reception you get on this one.

... this is such an ugly over generaliziation i almost dont know how to address it.. yes.. kids are very materialistic.. but VERY FEW KIDS get those materials soley from their parents.. I know TONS of kids who will do almost any job just to get some cash to buy the new psp, or a new car (or their first car) or the new jeans or whatever... Kids want more things yes.. but they are more willing to work for those things then ever before

Well, gosh, something we can agree on. Yup, society would be better off if kids weren't given so many material things so young, but just how are you going to turn the clock back? You ought to try posing this suggestion (that farmers hire american teen agers) to some of the big farms in central valley and see what kind of reception you get on this one.
i can only attempt to change one person at a time. and actually, my base group has had a 2 year letter writing campaign to not only the farming industry, but also the tradesmen society, and the various food workers unions. i am doing what i can. the thing is, childrearing, on he left coast, at least is waaayy off base. most of these kids arent being raised to work. they are not being raised at all, IMHO. so its an entire social problem that needs to be corrected.

... this is such an ugly over generaliziation i almost dont know how to address it.. yes.. kids are very materialistic.. but VERY FEW KIDS get those materials soley from their parents.. I know TONS of kids who will do almost any job just to get some cash to buy the new psp, or a new car (or their first car) or the new jeans or whatever... Kids want more things yes.. but they are more willing to work for those things then ever before
i live in orange county, california. where are you from?

You're ALL confused.

We're not talking about immigration here - we're talking about an invasion of our soverign borders, [snip]
We're not talking about Republican or Democrat, we're talking about a corrupt government system. Do you know that Kerry and Bush had identical policies about Immigration and Amnesty? Neither one was opposed either. Why? Because being in favor of it wins the Hispanic vote.[snip
OK. That's exactly what I"ve been saying. So why don't you vote for someone who's willing to choke off the flow? And, BTW, if you do choke it off are you willing to watch prices for food, clothing and lodging to double or triple?

damn, linda. somebody's got an opinion.

You're ALL confused.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>snip<<<<<<<<<<<<

you just reposted every idea i have said, and then say i am confused? i dont think so.

... this is such an ugly over generaliziation i almost dont know how to address it.. yes.. kids are very materialistic.. but VERY FEW KIDS get those materials soley from their parents.. I know TONS of kids who will do almost any job just to get some cash to buy the new psp, or a new car (or their first car) or the new jeans or whatever... Kids want more things yes.. but they are more willing to work for those things then ever beforeWell, so why aren't more of them in the ag jobs like they used to be in the 50's?

damn, linda. somebody's got an opinion.
nicky!!! hello. sorry i am not on yahoo right now- have too many things going on, but i hope you are good.

I rest my case. IOW you're saying that businesses want cheap labor that they can oppress. That's what I'm saying.

NO! ... buisness isn't out to oppress cheap labor.. just take advantage of it.. if these people are knocking on their doors saying I want to work.. ill work for less then the white guy.. why not.... and even if they get a fair wage.. atleast the employer doesn't have to worry about unions... But you say its the Government who is supporting this... This is falious at its core... Illegal immigration is a hot topic which spurs great civil unrest, causes economic impacts mostly detremental to the host country, and effects security and levels of crime. While illegal immigration has some benifits (cheap labour and plentyful labour source) the negatives far out weigh the benifits for the government.. But it is such an adrous task.. today we pump more then 6 billion into the mexican boarder ALONE through homeland security.. and still 12 million illegals (supposidly) enter the country annually. The government simply hasn't the resouces needed to effectivly quell the problem

i live in orange county, california. where are you from?

Long Island NY

nicky!!! hello. sorry i am not on yahoo right now- have too many things going on, but i hope you are good.
yes. things are much better. just out of curiosity, how many 'wegians are currently in your house/ office? 4? 5?

Well, so why aren't more of them in the ag jobs like they used to be in the 50's?

whats an ag job ?

Long Island NY well, city kids are way different, waaaayyy different. dont think that applies here.

yes. things are much better. just out of curiosity, how many 'wegians are currently in your house/ office? 4? 5?
hahahhaa. i am glad to hear it. i am at home. i only know 2 wegians, but there is a certain one that adds to be about 6 of them..........everything is great. apparently i have a boyfriend again.

well, city kids are way different, waaaayyy different. dont think that applies here.

they are not way different... I happen to know tons of city kids.. and they are all very similar... infact City kids are even MORE likely to work for the goodies they want.. cause their parents will laugh in their face if they want something they can't afford

BTW.. long island isn't the city... its the suburbs.. were all the middle-middle upper- and astonishingly upper class people live.

hahahhaa. i am glad to hear it. i am at home. i only know 2 wegians, but there is a certain one that adds to be about 6 of them..........everything is great. apparently i have a boyfriend again.
yay! congrats. glad that worked out. email me with details, if they exist.

they are not way different... I happen to know tons of city kids.. and they are all very similar... infact City kids are even MORE likely to work for the goodies they want.. cause their parents will laugh in their face if they want something they can't afford

BTW.. long island isn't the city... its the suburbs.. were all the middle-middle upper- and astonishingly upper class people live.
you misunderstood me. thats what i meant, that city kids work a hell of a lot more. i was saying that the spoiled brats in california dont work for shit, and certainly not anythiong involving any type of hard labour- they cant even mow the fucking lawn.

you misunderstood me. thats what i meant, that city kids work a hell of a lot more. i was saying that the spoiled brats in california dont work for shit, and certainly not anythiong involving any type of hard labour- they cant even mow the fucking lawn.

Even still.. im saying.. I live on Long Island, which has many places just like Orange County let me asure you.. and even the rich kids want to work (firstly because it looks better on their resumes) and secondly because even with rich parents they dont get everything they want.... and besides.. look at what your saying... kids dont work anymore ? you live in orange county.. one of the richest places in the country ... hardly reflective of the average American kid.. No crap really rich kids arn't going to work.. really rich adults bearly work.. they just inherit. That doesn't mean the average american is lazy (for this reason).

And the claim americans are lazy is trash to begin with... we have longer work weeks then Europeans (who are angered when their work week is raised to 40 hours a week as opposed to 36 ??? what a joke). We work harder and longer (thats one reason why we are richer and more successful)

While I certainly hope someone is keeping a sharp eye so that the minutemen don't become vigilantes, I also do worry that the coyotes trafficking people across the border are going to escalate things to violence. So far, even though I am deeply suspicious of the minutemen, it seems they have been acting fairly...but frankly, the wider issue of human trafficking is still not being dealt with effectively. I'm not sure how you COULD deal with it though.

That being said, we wouldn't have such a trafficking problem if all immigration were legal:).

The only REAL way to deal with any crime problem is to make it very NON PROFITABLE! If what a criminal is doing gains him/her more money than it cost with a minimal effort on their part, they will keep doing it. But, if they start having to work really hard and the profits dwindle, well, there goes the crime.

Also, a well placed nuclear bomb would take care of it. Course, I'd lose a large chunk of my family in the process, though. But, perhaps Saltio ( cant remember if it is one word or two ) is far enough South to be missed by the bomb........

Second, if we allowed ALL imigration as legal, that would screw the boarder towns to begin with, then, the rest of the country. The US of A was founded on imigration. My current girlfriend, and hopfully future wife, imigrated here. She did it the proper way. She bacame a citizen last year and has had no problem so what ever. If you wanna imigrate, do it the right way and welcome to America. If you dont, then GET THE HELL OUTA OUR COUNTRY!

27 states to date have adopted English as their official language, in their state constitution.

Not enough for consensus, though.